37: The Untapped Potential of The Refugee Workforce with Mursal Hedayat

Definitely. Chatterbox is a home for displaced talent, so highly skilled professionals with degrees and often many years of experience in high-value professions like engineering and medicine, who for one reason or another are highly undervalued in the labor market. Today we work with over 100 refugees around the world to help them make their first step back into work after becoming displaced from their homes. And in the future, we also hope to work with other groups of displaced professionals, including parents, the elderly, and disabled. And so what we're doing with their skills and talents is to channel it into a fast-growing and multi-billion-dollar industry, the language services sector. And the reason for this is because whilst for many many of these people, you can deny their professional backgrounds and their expertise, you can't deny that they have excellent language skills. So we use their language skills as kind of a Trojan horse to help them regain a foothold in the labor market.

That's great. I think projects like these are especially important in the political climate that we're in today. I know for the UK especially, you know, it is historically one of the most diverse places in the world, but there have been quite a few changes socially and politically that have made it, the rhetoric in the UK and Europe, a lot more insular and nationalist. Why do you think that is? I think Chatterbox is one of the organizations that aims to deal with that problem, but why do you think the rhetoric has become more nationalist?

I think humans are good when they have everything that they need. You see around the world, people who are deprived of, their basic needs tend to act up. And we're seeing the same thing in the UK. We're also seeing historic levels of poverty and homelessness and economic inequality. So I think this kind of backlash against foreigners when people feel like their needs aren't being met by their own government is pretty to be expected. So I don't think this is coming out of a well of hatred or that the British people who welcomed me into their homes and their communities 20 years ago are any different today. I just think that we need to be, we need to be more sensitive to the way that the world is currently and how it affects everyone, not just refugees. I'm not saying that their needs are greater than refugees, of course, and I think there's definitely room to educate people about just how vulnerable and just how marginalized and ill-equipped to restart their lives refugees often are when they arrive to a place of safety. And and how much of a human good it is to welcome and integrate them into our societies, not just for the human reason that one day, who knows, that that could be us, but also because they're engines of economic prosperity. Most of the data that we have about the integration of refugees shows that they give much more back into the system after raising their children than they take.

Yeah, I think, you know, I agree with you. The data always shows that immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, they always add to the societies that they're a part of. It's just finding those opportunities, right? So do you think the private sector especially has a responsibility of creating that space for them, or do you think it's much more nuanced and there needs to be a collaborative effort?

Absolutely. I mean, I've written on this topic before, and I definitely believe that there's a role for the private sector because what we're experiencing today is the greatest forced displacement of humans in history, greater than post-war. And this isn't just a job for governments to try to remedy. This is something that as a community, we have to come together and support as civilians, as the state, and also the private sector. And as I said, I can, I mean, I can quote some statistics about how refugees are overrepresented in entrepreneurialism and how they tend to stay longer in jobs and have lower attrition than other members of our community and the benefits that they give to employers. who hired them. But it's more, I want to speak more to people's humanity and say that this is a huge challenge for society, one that's only set to grow. The Lancet predicts that there'll be up to a billion more refugees caused by climate change by 2050. So we really need to roll up our sleeves, and that includes corporations that we work with here at Chatterbox.

And I know from your own background, you know, your experiences have led you to create Chatterbox. I know that your mum was a, you know, a very skilled engineer coming from Afghanistan, and she didn't find the opportunity in the UK immediately. Can you give us a little bit more information about that and your experience?

Sure. I mean, my mother definitely is a case study of the kind of talent that Chatterbox works with. Exceptionally hardworking, exceptionally intelligent. She was underemployed in the UK for over a decade, but she managed to transform that into opportunity for herself. using her language skills. So first she found work as an interpreter, which was relatively easy to find because her language skills are there, and then as a classroom language teacher, and now she's the headteacher of her own school in London. So I think she's a demonstration of how language skills can transform lives.

Oh, that's amazing. Well, you know, you've mentioned this shift. I think refugees and people with good language skills tend to find a place in the education sector and language learning, as you've mentioned. What do you think Chatterbox can do in this space? Not just to kind of innovate education as a whole, but also to kind of create more of an opportunity for refugees. Where do you see this growing?

Well, our first step is to complete building the best online language learning experience for professionals in the markets. So there's something to be said about— sorry, there's something to be said about starting off building a business with a few design constraints. And obviously our design constraint was that we wanted to work to serve refugees. And so it took about 2 years since we started up to really understand what refugees brought to language learning that other people didn't have, and what gave them a competitive advantage in this space. And after 2 years, it became readily apparent on our platform where individuals were already learning, we found that people were requesting to learn from refugees who had professional or personal expertise in the areas that they had interests in. So we had requests for Hekma, who knew about Arabic poetry, or Chikaya, the medical doctor from the DRC, or even an engineer, because the person who wanted to study was also an engineer. And so we recognized that Chatterbox was the only platform in the world where you could learn a language with someone who came from your professional background. Background and shared your interests. And now that's formalized in a matching algorithm on our platform. I'll say that again because that was a bit jolly for me. So now that's formalized in a matching algorithm on our platform that pairs every language learner with their ideal tutor, a bit like Tinder for language learning. And this is producing multiples of the completion rates of some of our largest competitors, which is extraordinary and something that we're seeing— we're trying to validate with research from UCL Institute of Education. But without a doubt, this is the best way to learn for professionals, and this is the future growth of this language learning product, is what we want to achieve over the next few years.

I like the idea of this being a Tinder for language learning. I think that's a nice little caption there. So, you know, there's clearly There's clearly a lot of technology that goes into building a platform like this, and in the last couple of years, education innovation as a whole has been leaning on technology. But parallel to that is a conversation about what the effect of this might be on the human element of learning. So, you know, you've spoken about the benefits for the refugees and the opportunities for them, but why do you think the learners specifically benefit from this type of interaction?

Well, we all know that technology has gone a bit too far in eradicating humans from the learning process, especially in language learning. We've all downloaded Babbel or Duolingo, studied it maybe for 2 weeks tops, and then deleted it from our phones if we remembered. This kind of technology-only learning is highly demotivating for the learner. It doesn't tap into integrative motivation, which is ultimately the reason that learners learn their first language. To become closer to the humans who care for them as children. And what introducing human relationships into the language learning process does is to really tap into that well of motivation that comes from wanting to be around people that we like and getting to know them. And I think that that's what Chatterbox is able to do well. And the reason that we're able to integrate humans into the learning process without really magnifying the cost substantially is because of the innovative way that we pair inexperienced native speakers who are refugees or from other backgrounds to teach courses that we ourselves design. And it's the scaffolding that's really the art in our language learning design. And it's also, I think, a feature of why we're able to maximize the human input for learners whilst keeping costs down.

That's great, you know, and I think the idea of sharing these narratives, sharing these stories, being with somebody that you like, as you said, that makes the whole process of interacting with learning as a whole a lot more enjoyable. And so, yeah, the benefits I can see for sure. But in terms of when you were first building this project, what were some of the obstacles you faced? I mean, I'm very interested to find out what your process was for recruiting refugees at the beginning.

So, our first ever tutor was a guy called Ayad. And I— we met Ayad because we reached out to him over email after he featured on a Guardian news article. And it was one of many. Now you'll find them all over the internet. You know, here is a medical doctor who's now unemployed. Here's a dental student who just wants to go back and study. And he really fits into the model of the kind of person that the talent we wanted to attract to Chatterbox. And so we reached out to him by email. He was hugely enthusiastic about the idea and really had worked with us for over a year to validate the model. But it wasn't really hard to find the second or third or fourth or fifth because there are just so many talented people who are refugees who are currently underemployed. After opening up recruitment for 2 months, we generated hundreds of applications from around the world, from refugee camps, from inside of Syria, from cities around the world. So that was definitely not the hardest part. I think we firmly established for ourselves that the talent is there, should we be able to find work for them. I think the most challenging thing was to, and still is, to convince people that We're not teaching refugees languages. That might sound silly, but people are so used to refugees being in receipt of help rather than being the ones who are helping us, that usually after I pitch, and I've tried millions of different ways, people come away with the idea that we're a charity that helps refugees, and it couldn't be further from the truth. So it's trying to escape that narrative that paints refugees as a burden or a drain on us, and to try to make that sale by saying these are exceptionally talented people who are willing to teach languages to your employees, and that's hugely valuable. I think that's maybe been the most challenging thing, to frame it correctly, and I think we're there now.

And do you think that there's been more of an acceptance of that kind of narrative of, well, these are refugees that can lend themselves to the community, or do you still feel like that message is not being received properly?

It depends. I mean, the first time someone meets me, they made that mistake, but not the second time. The second time they've met me, usually we've won one or two awards, gained one or two major clients, and increased some traction metrics. So by then they've seen clear demonstration of the value that refugees can produce. So it may be an initial presumption that people have, and it's the point of Chatterbox to change that presumption. So clearly we're doing the right thing by going to the kinds of places where people have those doubts.

Yeah. And, you know, to give you credit, you've been noted in a number of different awards and publications. As you mentioned, you're the face of Chatterbox. You're very accomplished in your own right. And I wonder, as a female entrepreneur in a space that's, you know, in the past been defined as a bit of a boys' club, do you think that breaking through this industry with this particular project has helped females be seen differently in the tech space, or do you think there's still a lot to learn?

I don't think— I'm a drop in the ocean in the world of startups and startup funding and all that kind of thing. So, I don't even wish to presume that I've made any impact on the issues that women face in startup world. The issues are there. If anyone doubts them, I can tell them a story or two about an inappropriate investor, or a client that demeaned my work because I was specific, because I was female. So those challenges exist, they persist. As an individual entrepreneur, the best thing that I can do is to break through as many of those barriers for myself as possible and to try to evade some of the harsh hooks that catch women on their way towards where they want to be in this space. I think overall though, there's maybe greater awareness hopefully greater awareness of these issues and at least some attempts to resolve them. So I think we're moving forward. I don't know how quickly. I don't have time to. I'm trying to build a company that is successful and that is an example of the success of female entrepreneurship.

And do you have any advice for any women looking to start their own similar project?

I mean, I never looked at advice that people gave to entrepreneurs when I wanted to get started. I think the best thing you can do is focus on your idea and do it. Yeah. People ask me that question a lot. I think if you're not already starting on an idea, you have to question why. What's holding you back? The first step is— the first steps are the easiest, so you should really just move forward and try to validate the idea that you have in your mind and see whether it works in real life. Other than that, my advice would be reach out to me. You know, I made a public commitment a few months ago to help any female or diverse entrepreneur who needed connections or advice. So, they can definitely reach out to me if they're struggling with anything.

Oh, that's great. And so, just my final question, Mursal, you know, Chatterbox, as you said, is growing. You're thinking about expanding to regions perhaps that you haven't been to before. What is the future for Chatterbox now?

Well, at the start of the interview, we talked about the the role of the private sector in supporting refugees and aiding the refugee crisis. And I think within Chatterbox, we've seen a real upswell of organizations who have clearly seen the benefit of our language learning offer, but also see the benefit of switching out existing language service providers for Chatterbox at very minimal cost to themselves, but a great benefit to the world. And so we're working with amazing organizations like The BNP Paribas, the 8th largest bank in the world, also Georgetown University in Qatar are another client that we're working with. And there's this organizational coming together to support initiatives like Chatterbox that I think is part of the future signals of success in resolving the refugee issue that we want to see. And so we're very interested in working with partners like BNP Paribas, like Georgetown University, who might need our language services and to grow with them and to ultimately be working with the employers who should hire the refugees that we train and validate the skills of with the chatbot platform.

That sounds great. Thank you, Mursal, for joining us. Where can people reach you? Your social media, your digital platforms?

Check me out on LinkedIn. I think it's the best place.

Okay, great. Well, thank you again for joining us at Wise Words, and we look forward to seeing you at the summit.

Yeah, same. Excited to be there.

A big thank you to Mursal for sharing some of her stories with us. What did you think of the discussion? Do let us know by commenting on WISE social media channels or by tweeting us directly @WISE_CEO. Also, be sure to check the links in the description for more on Mursal and her work. In the meantime, check out more from us at www.wise-qatar.org. See you next time.