2 competing six figure offers - Success Hacking- Client Success Interview with Michael Gunn

Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast. Today we have another very special guest, one of my clients from way back in 2019. He's coming on the podcast today to talk about his journey from then until now and all the shifts he had back then and how they've benefited him today. Um, and all the— yeah, I'm really excited to get into it. So Michael Gan, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do, And yeah.

Okay, yeah, my name is Michael. I, I'm a data scientist. And before I started working with Natalie, I wasn't really sure what to do with my, my skills. Like, I have a degree in neuroscience and another one in library science. And just getting into the workforce just felt like impossible for me for years. And After like 3 months of work, we were able to, to figure out exactly what I should be doing, which was data science. And we worked out a plan to get me talking to people and to get my foot in the door at some different companies. And about 3 months after we stopped working together, I ended up with 3 opportunities. And I took one, which was to start a business after I found a partner in Toronto. And we've been working on that ever since. And I got in touch with Natalie recently because after about 2 years working at this— working on this company, I wanted to use the experience to get a job. And so I used the techniques that we worked on. to do it again. And I just got 2 offers a couple weeks ago. And so now I'm just figuring out which one to take and then— and I'll be starting one of them next week.

Yeah, so much exciting stuff has happened. So great to hear. So yeah, so before I met you, or like, but way back when I met you, now it seems like I'm kind of talking to a different person because we've when we caught up, you had done so much and your mindset has just completely shifted from how you used to think about things. And yeah, thank you for sharing that, mentioning about how you felt like the job search was really hard for you. What do you think made it hard for you? What do you think the main challenge, like mental challenges you were having? Because you were obviously like highly educated, you had the skills and you had a lot of like potential and ability. What do you think was making it hard for you?

Well, my original plan when I went to school was to become a professor. And then when I was in grad school, I saw these PhD students and what their prospects were. And right now in Canada and, and in other countries too, it looks like you, you're probably not going to become a professor. You're going to be a seminal instructor and make barely any money. And so I I thought I needed to get into an industry outside of school. And I wasn't sure how to make that switch because, you know, the people who advise you in university, typically they haven't done that before, so they can't tell you how to do it.

Mm-hmm.

And then once I got out, I was, I was looking around trying to apply for jobs, but it was like hitting a brick wall. And if I tried to pivot, it was just hitting the same brick wall again and again. And it really got frustrating. And so I wasn't sure what to do. Yeah, it really tells you how to get a job when you're in school.

Yeah, totally. And so I remember, um, like a lot of, a lot of stuff that happened there where you were— you, first of all, you committed to action because you went and started networking, started meeting people and talking to people. But you had like a, like some shifts from like, I don't know how this is going to be possible, I don't know how I'm going to be able to do this, to being— to starting to feel like, oh, I'm getting this and I can do this. And obviously having achieved a lot Um, where would you pinpoint like those shifts that you had in yourself to be able to do that?

I think the shift started maybe after about a month of working together after I had started meeting people, but I, I started to get frustrated again because I felt like it wasn't working, but it was really just that it wasn't working fast enough for me and I was getting impatient. And then when you would— when we'd have the call every week, I remember this one time I was like, I was really frustrated and you just reassured me that things would get better. And so I just decided to be more patient. And then when I started to see that I was getting farther along and then meeting people was starting to yield some results, that's when I think it shifted, just like seeing— Little improvements.

Yeah, so it started with the commitment to action and continuing that action and then starting to see, like, starting to pay attention to those incremental results you were getting because it would still be easy to say, oh, it's still not working, it's still not working. But then you started to be like, oh, okay, this might turn out, or this person was helpful. And it's kind of the journey that everybody goes through, so really appreciate you sharing it. And then from What do you think like the biggest fear you had to overcome was in, in deciding to get help and deciding to say yes to working with me? Because I know at that point you were feeling really stuck, but it was still an investment to make. What do you think the biggest fear was that you had to overcome?

Well, I don't know if it was a fear, but it was an invisible script. This idea that I shouldn't need a coach or that I shouldn't need somebody to help me. I should just be able to do it on my own. And what I ended up realizing was, uh, before working with you, I took one of Ramit Sethi's courses on mindsets, and he was talking about how, how successful people use coaches, and that's how they become successful.

Yeah.

I was thinking like, why would you need a coach? But actually, the most successful people have several coaches. And they help them to keep focused so that they, they don't need to rely on themselves for discipline. They have somebody to keep them motivated.

Totally. Yeah. And it's really smart that you picked up on what he said there and like applied it to your own life because it's so true. And I have a coach too. And I think that everyone who experiences working with somebody else can kind of see, oh, they're pointing out stuff that I didn't see. They— I didn't realize I was thinking that way. I didn't realize I was doing that. So yeah, it And also like really smart of you to be like, oh, I noticed that and I'm gonna go do that instead of kind of just hitting, continuing to hit the brick wall. So, um, yeah, I mean, the results that you were able to achieve, not, not just once, but again, um, over the last, I guess, 2 years, what, how would you say your life is, is different now with how you think about your own challenges and stuff? Sorry.

Getting that work experience was a big deal. Because I, like, I had work experience that I might have been able to leverage, but it would have been more difficult. But when I started this company, it forced me to have to learn certain things. Like, I had tried learning Python programming a few years ago, and I only got so far because I didn't have any idea for a project. But when I met my business partner, he had a vision for something. And that's something that I can't really do is have a vision, but I can, I could make his vision happen.

Mm-hmm.

So

yeah,

having to think about that and look up how to do this and how to do that to make it happen, that's when the learning started. And after about 6 months, I knew enough Python that I didn't have to look up every single line of code I had to write, and I could start to To just work more efficiently.

Yeah. And kind of learned your strengths through that process being like, oh, this is something I'm good at.

Yeah. It was nice to see that and, uh, and to get feedback from him to, and to know that, that this was actually going somewhere.

Yeah. And, and also, um, would you mind talking about how you, 'cause I know you met up with this, um, you found him through, through Shapr3D and you were networking a bunch of different ways and what was it that During that interaction, you think you were able to show him that allowed you guys to start working together?

Well, one thing that he was impressed with was that my laptop, which when I bought it had Windows on it, I had put Linux on it. And so he was impressed with that. And he thought— he told me, oh, you must be a computer hacker then.

Yeah, the simplest things really catch people's attention when they have that in common with you, where they're like, oh, cool.

Yeah. They, people like Linux comfortability because if you, if you like Linux, then that means that you're gonna be comfortable with a web server cuz most of them have Linux now.

Mm-hmm.

So that really said something to him. And

yeah,

another thing that he liked was that when he was telling me about this business problem, I was asking him questions that he was impressed with.

Yeah. Huge. And so when you were in, in asking questions and in that interaction, what were you focused on, do you think? Because in order to ask really good questions, you kind of need to be focused on his problem and like what he needed. So how do you think you were able to, to focus there instead of what most people do, which is worrying about, uh-oh, what if he doesn't like me? What if I'm not good enough? What if I can't offer anything? How were you able to shift in order to have your focus where you needed it for that interaction?

Well, I guess that's where the Preparation came in and I had met so many people at that point that it was a lot easier for me to just think about, about the pain points I had done. I'd put so many reps in.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.

That's really important, putting in the time and then allowing yourself to try and fail and fail and fail. And eventually you'll find people who will like you. And you'll be ready for them.

Really well said. Yeah, exactly. And then being willing to just go through that stuff, because I know we had a lot of calls where you, where you were feeling that frustration, and I have that with clients. They— that just, just happens. It's just part of the process. It's just totally normal. And we think when we're in it that it's like a problem, but it's really just part of the journey. So really, really good of you to, to be willing to get through that, because now you can, you can so much easily get through that, as we'll talk about with your most recent successes as well. So what do you think made you successful with coaching? As there's some people who will hire a coach and it won't always work for them, or they'll do a program and it won't always work. What do you think you were able to do that made you successful in applying everything that you got?

I, I guess it was knowing that there was something wrong in that I had to figure out what it was, or I wasn't going to go anywhere.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that willingness to just keep going deeper and deeper and answering the hard questions.

I remember one of my relatives, she offered to have me see a life coach once, and I did. I refused it because I thought I don't, I don't need this. And I knew that, like, that my with my attitude that I wouldn't have helped.

Yeah, yeah, because at the time you weren't ready. Yeah, yeah. And that's okay, because when you're ready, the teacher appears. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and so do you think that like that's the answer then? It was just that you, you happen to just be ready to be like, okay, I've had enough of this. I— successful people have coaches. I'm just gonna do it and get some help. And then that kind of mentality allowed you to To just move forward even when it was hard.

Yeah, and I've heard that it's like the same with with like rehab when you're addicted. You won't be able to to stop the addiction unless you want to. People some people they're in and out of rehab, and then other people they they're able to stop.

Yeah, yeah.

About your attitude.

Absolutely. Yeah, being ready, having solid reasons why you want to, and yeah. And I mean, when I was going through my coach certification, I was trying to coach everybody, and I realized. You know, some people just don't want to hear it. Yeah,

that's true.

So, yeah, totally. Exactly. So, moving forward after the, the first success that you had and then being in the position where you were gonna be on the job hunt again, um, what were you able to kind of immediately pull from what you learned and use now in getting 2 competing really great offers on the table?

Well, one thing was knowing that I had done it before. I think that was a big deal because I was, I was really confident that I'd be able to figure it out again.

Yeah.

Another thing was having this 2 years of experience meant that it, like, that meant that my resume would be even better than before.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. A lot of confidence and I actually found that this time, because I had that experience and I was able to market myself as having 5 years of experience, plus being in a highly in-demand field, it meant that I could have recruiters coming to me.

Mm-hmm.

And so I feel like— I know your technique is to actively go on LinkedIn and look for people, but I found that I could have people coming to me this time.

Yeah.

Yeah, but it was kind of overwhelming because people just kept coming to me and I was setting up like 2 or 3 interviews a week.

Yeah.

That got really overwhelming.

Yeah, so in a good way, but also needing to manage your, your thoughts around how am I gonna deal with all these people. How— what did you do to get people reaching out to you? What do you think it was?

It was the resume, just making sure that I had the right keywords in it. Because those recruiters, they're looking for resumes that fulfill the criteria of their clients.

You

need to have the right keywords in there.

Yeah, I've heard that too. For, for LinkedIn, uh, the keywords are really important, and if you have those right, you can get recruiters reaching out to you. So lots of people have lots of recruiters reaching out to them, but some, they can't seem to close the deal with the interview. So where, um, where did you apply what you learned there to be able to Actually land the 2 competing offers?

Well, when I started this, I wasn't getting any offers either because I, I wasn't ready for their questions.

Mm-hmm.

So I, like, there was this silly question that they ask about Python, which is, what's the difference between a list and a tuple? And the answer is like a, a tuple is immutable, meaning once it's made, you can't change it, but you can change a list. Mm-hmm. And so it's just like a really easy question that anybody should be able to get, but the first time that I, I got it, I wasn't ready for it. So, so one of the people working at our company who has a lot of tech experience, he said that I got a point where I'd had like 5 interviews and I was frustrated. He said, After about 9 interviews, like technical interviews, you'll know what questions are coming and it'll be a lot easier for you.

Nice. Yeah. And so he was able to give you that number that he probably just guessed or was his experience, right? But that helped you to be like, okay, I'll, I'll start to get it after 9. Sometimes I say to people, yeah, and this is for listeners in their job search. I sometimes use this as an example too, which Michael's kind of illustrated more concretely, but I also sometimes say, so if, if someone told you that if you were going to ride a unicycle and that was something you wanted to learn and you had to get on it for 100 days in a row and you were for sure going to fall down at least the first half of the time, but on day 100 you were totally going to be able to ride it, would you do it? I mean, if you really did want to learn how to ride a unicycle. So sometimes help looking, looking at it that way really helps to be like, okay, it's just gonna, it's gonna take what it's gonna take and Overestimating. But, but yeah. And so, so just kind of being willing to go into that process. And, and so looking at it now, knowing what the process is like and having been successful previously, what kind of mindset did you bring to the interviewing? And like when you, when you did, when something didn't work out, how did you kind of react to it versus how you would've previously?

Uh, well, one thing I, I tried to do at the end when they ask you what questions you have was to, to get more information about their pain point.

Mm-hmm.

I'd ask them like, what, what is this, the project that you want, that you would want me to work on? Or like, what, what is the team like? Because that shows that I'm interested in what they're doing.

Mm-hmm.

And if I can get them to talk about About the actual pain point, like what they need me to do, then that can help me to talk about the value I could add.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Fantastic. And that's exactly, yeah, you did a really beautiful job of applying everything that you learned in coaching, like the mindset and then being able to interview in that way. Because yeah, like I was saying, you can get lots of people contacting you for interviews, but then you have to know how to close the interview and that's where That's where you applied those skills. So what was your experience while working together? Did anything surprise you?

I think what surprised me the most was, was like how much, how much actual traveling I was gonna do and how many people I was gonna meet. I didn't think it would be as many as it was.

Yeah, and what did you learn from the experience of putting yourself out there and meeting all these people?

Oh, well, like most people didn't want to help me, but a surprising number of people did. It was about 10% like you, like you estimated, but they, they were willing to like sit with me for a half hour or an hour and just answer my questions. And, and like even give me specific advice sometimes.

Yeah. And some of it helpful, some of it not so helpful, but all part of your journey.

Yeah. And I mean, even the ones who weren't as helpful, at least it was, it was still getting out there and, and like meeting someone and, and there was still something I could learn usually.

Yes. And that's the positive mindset that you took from that was like, there's always something to learn for sure. And so like now, how do you feel about the job hunt versus how you felt about it before?

Well, it's a lot more doable now that I understand it. And it's still, it's still really difficult. But once you understand what's really going on behind the scenes, it becomes a lot easier to know what to do.

Yeah.

I didn't know what was going on. Like, uh, 5 years ago. So yeah, every decision I made was wrong because there was no way I could, I could figure it out.

Yeah. Or we could say it was right, but you had to figure that out through the, the wrongs. Yeah. And so, yeah, I love what you said about that. It's so true. Like just having like this insurmountable thing that seems impossible and then, then being able to figure it out, kind of break it down. Go and and keep doing it until you get it, and then when you're in the position of needing to do it again, you're like, okay, this was hard. I could do hard things, but at least I understand how to do it now. Huge. And so, what would you say to someone who is on the fence considering hiring a coach? Not really sure if it's worth it. What would you kind of say to them?

Well, if you aren't able to figure it out for yourself, I mean, having somebody around who knows what's going on and who's not you really is helpful. And it's worth it. I mean, you're, you're basically investing in yourself.

Mm-hmm.

And in this case, if you want a better job and better pay, it's going to be worth it in the end. You're going to get a return on your investment. If you're willing to put in the work.

Yeah. And that's exactly how I encourage people to look at coaching and how I look at coaching myself. It's not about what you put in, it's what— it's about what you get out for now and for the years afterwards. Because I love having you on as an example, because years later you're still benefiting from the work that we did. You're implementing it, you're building upon it, you're even like improving it, right? And making it work even better. So how would you describe Coaching to someone who's never experienced it before, has no idea what it is?

Well, unlike, unlike psychotherapy where they're just like letting you get your emotions out there, with this you're addressing wrongful mindsets that you have. Everybody has these beliefs that are not true But we don't know they're true because we've convinced ourselves that they're true. And so you need someone to come in who's mindful about these things to, to like destroy those beliefs, like to attack them and then to get you to start attacking them on your own.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you for that. Really good. I love asking that question because you get kind of a different description, but that was one of the best. So how would you specifically describe me as a coach? I mean, I probably changed a bit because it has been a couple of years, but But how would you describe what it was like working with me back when we worked together?

Well, I really like that you have HR experience, so you know what HR people are like and what they're looking for. That was really helpful. And I think I like that you're introverted too, because like you kind of understand the problems that that introverts have because we're, we're not as good at interviewing as extroverts are.

Yeah, totally.

And I think, yeah, the fact that, that you have like had coaching before on things and you've done a lot of self-improvement was helpful too because you know what it's like. So you're not just like, like a motivational speaker comes in there and just tries to motivate people. Like, you've actually been there too.

Thanks. Yeah, I really like to add that stuff in and talk about my personal experience and kind of share with people how I've done the work as well, because I think it's valuable. So thanks for confirming that and the feedback on that. And I think it's important for people to know, like, if they're considering hiring a coach, yeah, hearing other people's perspectives is really valuable on what it's really like to work with somebody because you're spending, you know, you're investing your time, money, and working with somebody. So thanks for sharing. And what would you say you want listeners to most know who are in your, in the position where you were when you started? And they can't seem to figure this out. It seems insurmountable. It seems really hard. What would you want them to know?

Oh, well, what you told me when we started out was that it's not my fault, like what was happening to me. Like I, cause I was kind of blaming myself too, but like when you like kind of validated that I was also feeling like, like this couldn't be my fault, that was kind of a big deal. Because I think, I think people around me were kind of seeing it as something that I was doing wrong. And so I would, I would tell people like, it's not, it's not your fault that you don't understand what's going on because it's really hard to understand and it's kind of an opaque industry.

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like you don't know what you don't know. And if you don't know where to find the information or you don't know how to expand your own mind, Then yeah, it's not your fault, right? You kind of need, you need some outside assistance at that point. Yeah. And what would you say that they should watch out for? What guidance or kind of advice would you offer to people in your position as they were before and want to get to where you are now?

So you mean like roadblocks along the way?

Yeah. Any heads ups or anything you want to share about that?

Yeah, I would say you're gonna get frustrated, probably. So you gotta, you just gotta be patient.

Yeah, totally. And I remember some of our calls going through some of the frustrating times and, and it's kind of the, like, you, whenever you go through a time when you're really frustrated, it's good news because it means you're about to have a breakthrough. You're going to have new information. It's actually a really good place to be, but you have to, you have to kind of be strong to look for the answers to get out of that frustration and be willing to see things differently. But it is probably going to happen. It's happened to probably every single one of my clients that I can think of. At some point they have gone through the frustration. So I would agree with that. And then, um, sorry, go ahead.

Well, when you're frustrated, it means you're working out the problem.

And

so that's, that's painful, but it— you will eventually figure it out.

Yeah. And you know this well because in your line of work, that's what you do, right?

Oh yeah. And then the relief after you figure out what to do.

Yeah.

Real nice.

Yeah. You're like, I get it. And it's so much more satisfying than if it was so easy, right?

Yeah. Like I've had some really complicated code that I've been working through. And then at some point, I realized where the little tiny problem is. And sometimes it's just like the silliest little thing. And sometimes I'm untangling this, this web, but once it's over, it feels great.

Yeah, that's another good, really good way to describe coaching. It's kind of like there's just this little shift or this little thing that's not in the right spot that sometimes You just have to identify or you have to get some other eyes on it or something. And then once you kind of have that, it's like a little 1-degree shift and then things can kind of start moving from there. Yeah, that's a really, another really good way to describe it. Yeah. And, and so, yeah, so then, so then you've had these 2 competing job offers trying to figure out which one you want to take. How did you, how did you kind of achieve that and happen to have them happening at the same time?

Well, at that point, I think I had figured out the, the interviews.

Mm-hmm.

And I had this one really good interview about a month and a half ago. And with that one, I was able to kind of like about halfway through get her to start talking about like the pain points. And so, so she was— she wasn't really leading the interview anymore. It was kind of like I started leading it a little bit and then she Was. And so it was like a back and forth, which was really ideal. But then—

Exactly.

I got a call from their recruiter, their internal recruiter, and she said that it was between me and another guy, and the other guy got it because he already works in that same industry, whereas I'm coming from a startup. So they thought that he would transition into it better than me, but they They still really liked me and they wanted me to apply to future roles. And I think it was the attitude that I had after hearing that that really caused the success later.

Mm-hmm.

It was like being tested. Like, I had to feel like, this is okay. I got, I got super close and I'm probably going to be able to do it again.

Yeah. Yeah, such a good mindset to take, right? Like, and that was a choice. Like, that's the thing people don't realize, that you choosing that mindset was a choice. Because somebody in your exact same situation after that could have said, oh, I was so close, what's the point? This is— this sucks. Now what? Oh, I'm gonna have to start that whole process again. I'm gonna have to do all that again. For what, right? It's so easy to go in that other direction, right? But you, after being kind of Knowing how to rewire your own mind and move in that positive direction, you're in the thought that you chose was so much more helpful, right? Because then it just helps you continue on right away, and then you don't lose any time being in that kind of limbo where you're like, oh, this didn't work out, right? So yeah, I really wanted to highlight that because it's so important that we see like you chose that thought. It wasn't something that You know, everybody chooses, and that's one of the big reasons why I think it takes people so long is because they they get they spend a lot of time in the disappointment. What do you think helped you like that thought? But the also just like when we were catching up, like your mindset is just like automatically choosing positive thoughts that serve you now after the work that we did together. What do you have any tricks or anything that you use to do that, or you think it was just kind of? Intrinsically taking it on from, from the coaching.

Yeah, I think it was just from like, from having all this coaching and continuing on afterwards, just like continuing to make that effort. It kind of stuck with me. And so now my brain is different.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It's a lot easier for me to make that choice.

Yeah, absolutely. And we know that you can do hard things. Like you have solved super hard problems before, done a lot of things you've never done before. And Still, like, something I really want to share with listeners is that you could have done a lot. You could have really good accomplishments and like these degrees like Michael has and still, you know, struggle with the job hunt process or the interviewing process. And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It just means you haven't learned, like as Michael was saying, you haven't learned how it works yet or have an understanding of this particular process. And, and that's the thing that they don't teach you in school. Like you said.

Yeah, they don't teach you how to fail cuz when you, when you fail in school, everybody like knows about it or the teachers marks those parts and it kind of discourages you from trying anything because you're afraid you're gonna fail.

Yeah. It's like a bad thing.

Most people are, are like deathly afraid of failing. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And my most successful clients, that's the thing they learned, right? The first thing is like, okay. And go, keep going, keep going, right? And not being afraid to put themselves out there. And yeah, and that's not something you struggled with, was trying to be perfect. That's something a lot of my clients struggle with, is they're like, oh, I can't, I need to prepare for this interview. And, um, and I did, we did do some work on your stories and stuff like that, but, um, what does your interview prep kind of process look like now, now that you've done all this work?

Well, before any interviewing, I, I reviewed the stories and just made sure that I remembered them.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't, I, at this point, I don't think about what questions they apply to. I just make sure that I, I know them.

Mm-hmm.

Because it'll come up in my head once I hear a question. I'll know what story applies to it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I remember we went through that, that process when we were working together and I had that big document and I was just like, we went through them together and you told them and then you kind of quizzed yourself to look at the question and be like, okay, I'm gonna tell that I'm going to tell that one. I'm going to tell that one. So that must have stuck with you too.

Yeah, that was a good place to start and rehearsing them was really good and having a, like a few people to rehearse them with just so that they were in my head. But now I don't really have to prepare anymore. I can just go into it as long as I know, I have a basic idea of what they want and I get that from the job title and the Job description.

Yeah.

As long as I review that, I know what they, what they want generally, then I can ask them the right questions.

And also has to, has to involve a trust in yourself, right? Being like, you have to have some sort of thought about yourself that, that implies that you trust yourself to come up with the answers, right? Instead of having to feel like you have to memorize a script or something. How do you do that?

For a few interviews, you'll have to Go off of your script, but once you get used to it, you don't have to do that anymore. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because you just remember them and you trust yourself that you know the information that you need to know, right?

Yeah, because that's what happened to me, so I should know.

Well, that's the thing too, though. Like you didn't beat yourself up. You're like, oh, this was a silly thing. Like everyone should have known it, but then you just learned it and then moved on. Yeah, and that's the best way to do it, right? Evaluating and just continuing on neutrally instead of instead of beating yourself up for not. not knowing something that, you know, you weren't asked before. So this

time the tough part was the technical interviews. I hadn't really had those before. And what happened with those was when I had a really bad one, I kept track of what questions I got stuck on. And then I looked up what they were asking about. Yeah. That way I could know it for the next time.

And what did you think about yourself after that happened? Like, When you were like, oh, I didn't know that. Now I'm gonna, like, what thought process led you to evaluate and improve like that?

Now, well, the questions I was getting right most of the time were Python questions, but then SQL kept coming up and I, uh, I understand SQL, but I don't have, I don't have enough experience to just be able to answer those questions. So I was just thinking, well. I need to, I need to do more work on this. And so, so I told my partners about this and they, they decided to like give me some more responsibility with the database so that I could learn more SQL and do more, do more queries. And that helped a lot. So I was able to answer those questions a lot better.

Yeah. And so you just kind of addressed the problem. You were like, okay, this is— and it sounds like you just did it really neutrally. Like there wasn't Emotional, emotion attached or like judgment or beating yourself up or anything like that. You were just like, okay, this is what I need to do. I'm gonna go do it. And then success comes. Yeah. It's kind of the formula, right?

Yeah. And it didn't take as long as I, I thought it would to figure it out. 'Cause you just have to look it up and then have a, have someplace to actually try it out.

Mm-hmm.

So like if you wanna learn databases, you need to Have a database with some kind of useful data in it, and then you can play with it. Or if you're learning programming, just have a project and actually work on getting it done. And you know, it can take a lot of time. It's worth it because then you have something that you could even show employers. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Again, looking at it from the best point of view possible, right? To be able to be like, yeah, cuz people could easily be like, oh, this is so much work. I have to go do this. And something I also noticed about you was that you, you You really got into the process and just went all, went all in. And then it started to enjoy it after, you know, after you kind of stopped wanting it to happen faster, kind of just started enjoying, like with the way that you approach problems today in your jobs and in your career, but also like to the same with the job search, kind of like it is a process and it is gonna take understanding and mastery. And that's something that you were not afraid to lean into. Can you talk about your mindset there?

Uh, yeah, so I, I think I could explain it with this novel I read a while ago. It's Starship Troopers, and like, the, the movie is not very good, but the novel is really good. So, uh, the main character, he joins the, the military to be in the Space Navy, and when he's doing basic training, he's like really hating it because, because you have to do all of this work and the exercise is really difficult and you have to get yelled at by all these people. But there was a point in it where the character stopped being— stopped hating it and started feeling like a soldier, and he started to enjoy all of the, like, the painful experiences he was going through because he knew that he was a soldier. And so I think Yeah. That, I think reading that, it kind of helped me because I realized that, that going through this process, at some point I saw what was going on and I started to enjoy it.

Yeah, exactly. Kind of like, well, this is what I'm going to be doing anyway. Like kind of, I think you kind of have to resolve yourself to like, I'm going to be in this and get this done no matter what. So I might as well figure out a way to enjoy it.

Yeah. You start identifying with your journey.

Yeah, exactly. That's a really good way to put it. Yeah. I've heard other clients kind of talk about it similarly to that too, but it kind of has to be like that. Otherwise you're just pushing your way there. And when it's not feeling aligned, and it won't always feel aligned, but when it's not feeling aligned all the time, that's when you start to get like repeatedly frustrated. So when you can lean into like, okay, I'm understanding, I'm getting this, and then that's when the results The results come faster. It's kind of counterintuitive, but kind of how it works. But yeah, thanks for sharing that. I'm sure listeners will love to hear that book recommendation as well.

Oh yeah, it's a great book.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, was there anything else, any last things you wanted to share? I think those are all the questions I had for you.

Uh, well, I guess I guess to like sum it all up, you just have to accept that this is, this is the journey you're on and you have to learn how to love it. And you're gonna have to accept that it's painful at first, but once you've gotten used to putting in the effort, it becomes a lot easier and it becomes fun.

Yeah, such a good way to put it.

You realize that you're adding value to people's lives that actually becomes a lot more enjoyable just to enjoy the fact that you're adding value.

Yeah. And also taking the focus, like you just mentioned, a really key point there is taking the focus off yourself and onto them. Right.

And yeah.

And then that kind of releases the pressure as well of like our own insecurities. And because when we're focusing on ourselves, it's very difficult to add as much value as we're capable of adding. So another really great point to leave it with. All right, Michael. Well, thank you so much for being here and sharing so generously with everybody your journey. And congratulations on your success. And thank you for being an amazing client.

Well, thanks, Natalie. It was nice to be on the podcast.

Yeah, great to have you. All right. Bye, everyone.