From fearing interviewing to her long-awaited IDEAL six figure position as Assistant Principle

Now. Hello. Hello. So I am here today with my wonderful client, Danetta, and Danetta has achieved something really impressive, not just in terms of the results that we're going to talk about, but also just of her whole experience as far as changing her mindset and becoming kind of a more confident person around interviewing and just experienced a lot of growth in a really short amount of time. So, Danetta, why don't you start by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about what you do, why you love it, and why you do what you do?

Oh, hi everyone. My name is Danetta, um, and I am— or I was an expiring school principal, but now I just got the good news that, um, I have been offered an assistant principal job. And I'm here in Philadelphia, and I'm just super excited because this has been a long time coming for me. I've been in education now for 25 years. I've had my administrator's certificate since 2008. So I've had it for a long time, been wanting to be a school principal for a very long time. However, The interviewing process just totally scared the you-know-what out of me. And the fact that I was just always just so nervous about that process held me back all of those years. What is that, about 12 years that I've had my cert? I've always felt, I've always had the skillset, you know, being a strong instructional leader, being a strong educator, knowing what it takes to be a great teacher, wanted to grow myself into leading others. you know, on a larger scale, such as the principal, the principal's role. But let me tell you something, I was so horrible at interviewing. So this is where we are today. Now I can absolutely say, thanks to Natalie, my coach, that I've actually sealed the deal and I will be starting my new— in my new role November 16th. At a dream school here in the city of Philadelphia. If you know anything about Philadelphia, it's a large urban city and a large school district with a lot, lot of, lot of schools. Not too many blue ribbon schools, which are your top tier schools. I've actually not only gotten a job, but I've actually sealed the deal and impressed the team at my new school, which is a Blue Ribbon School, which is a top-tier school. So I'm super excited about that.

Yay! And thank you so much for saying that, because I can— I know that so many people listening can relate to that, having— knowing that you have the skills and the capability and the passion and are completely capable of doing an amazing job, but just getting past that interviewing process can be so daunting and so frustrating. Because, you know, it's like, if we could just skip the interview part, It would be fine, right?

Right. Natalie, listen, I prayed so many nights to say, I just want to be lucky. I just want to be that person where someone just discovers me and I can just like skip all the way over the whole interviewing. I just want them to be able to just see me being great and what I do from day to day. And then they just say, you know what? I want her.

Yeah.

And I would have to skip the whole interview.

Totally. And when I first met you, when we first started working together, the way that you spoke about what you did, did, how knowledgeable you were, how you had already achieved so much in your current role, even without having the authority, you'd already made such strides in the school. I was like, you were made for this. And the only thing getting in your way is your mindset around the interviewing process. And I think that also something that happened to you, and this is something that happens to a lot of my clients too, they have a previous experience that really affected their confidence. So they have a bad interview experience, or maybe they have more than one, and it really affects their confidence.

Yes, yes. And you know, that's how I ended up on your doorstep.

Yeah. So do you, do you want to talk a little bit about that and how you shifted from, from, from having that bad experience to then moving forward into changing your mindset around interviewing?

Sure. So how I landed on Natalie's doorstep is I had— like, the way the process goes in Philadelphia when you want to become a principal or an assistant principal, you have to get yourself into this talent pool first to even— before you even consider interviewing with the school. So I had to think, I had to get myself on this list, this infamous list. So year after year, year after year, I interviewed to try to get in this pool, trying to get in this talent pool and never, ever, ever, ever made it. So this last try, which was back in March before we went on this lockdown or on virtual learning and teaching, I had my— I had an interview to get onto the pool. So I had this grueling experience where we had to— it's 2 parts. We had to do, let's just say, a face-to-face interview, like a conversation, just with, you know, some principals, and then there's a part where you have to do some pre-work and present a case study that you had— that I, you know, had to work on, and then present to another group of principals. Well, part 2, I had these 2 principals where I had to present my case study, and just going into it, I looked at them, they looked at me, they had on these serious faces, and I'm like, oh boy, 2 men, uh-oh, shutting down. And the way that they looked, they were all serious, so I I didn't— just from past experiences, I did not have like a PowerPoint presented. I mean, I'm ready to present because I didn't have a great experience when I did a PowerPoint before.

So even at that point, you didn't feel prepared? What were your thoughts? Do you remember your thoughts when you walked into that scenario?

I felt like I was prepared. I came with a plan, but it was just a plan, a paper plan. So I said, okay, let me not do the computer. Let me just do the paper plan, which is pretty much the same thing. being presented in a different way. So when I told them that, oh no, I don't need to set up any PowerPoint, any computer, any technology, I have my plan right here. So I handed it to them and they looked down at it. From there, it was just the whole demeanor, the energy of the room just really went like downhill. So from there they said— so as I started to go through my plan, they were so disengaged. You had one on his phone, one looking down, tapping his finger, not even paying attention to me during this interview process. And I totally just was just like trying to just get through it at that point. In my head, they got to me and I was just like, just wanting to get it over. And I said what I had to say and I was just like, okay, I'm finished. And then they had some questions. And at the end, when I was finished, they started questioning me and I was just like, not even into it at that point. I was just literally answering the questions to just be done and out of there, right? So when I wrapped up and finished with the interview, I packed my things up all in a huff and a hissy and was just like, I just can't believe I just had this experience. How rude these guys are. So I packed up my stuff, left the room, went to— there was a restroom across the hall from the interview room. And I went in and I had to just, you know, compose myself because I was like pretty much almost in tears. And I'm in there getting myself together. I came out and there was one of the guys in the hallway waiting for me. And he said, can we see you? Can I— can we need to talk to you again? So I was like, oh gosh, Lord, they're really going to tell me that they're denerving me to want to be a principal.

And what do they want now?

Yeah, what do they want with me now? So they pulled me in and they laid it out. They said, listen, you obviously got what it takes. Seriously, this is your passion. This is what you— this is what you want to do. And this is how you show up. Like, they like— and I was just like, okay, seriously, let me tell you guys the truth. This is what I really felt. Your energy, your energy deflated me. So one goes, seriously, you want your dream so bad to happen that you're going to put it in the hands of someone else? We're going to give you a few more minutes, few more minutes, and you need to show up and show out and show us what you really got. Because if you really wanted this position, you wouldn't care how we showed up. Because it's your passion and you don't let anybody have your passion, take your passion and your dream away from you. So we need for you— we got some more questions for you. And I was like, seriously, I'm ready because I know this stuff like the back of my hands, but it was you. So come on, let's go. Let's do it.

I guess that's so fascinating. Yeah. So fascinating the experience that you had, because, well, first of all, without that experience, you wouldn't have come to me. Um, but on so many levels, like, first of all, they were disengaged. And I remember we coached on this and we were like, what if it was a test? What if they were literally testing you? But I've got a lot of clients and I know that, um, you're not alone on this where the interviewer or the HR person or whoever it is, is not responsive. Like maybe they are on their phone. Maybe they're looking around at another thing. Maybe they appear distracted. And then it's up to you as a candidate, how you show up. But if you're not, if you haven't been in an experience like that before, then it's only natural that you would get completely thrown off. And then what's even more fascinating is that they will come back and then say, what's wrong with you? Why, why did you do that? When really they were the ones who made the decision to disengage and make you feel like you weren't being paid attention to. So super fascinating. Right. Yeah. And a lot was learned from that experience, wasn't it?

That's when I was like, there is no way this is it. I can't believe this has happened to me. Lord, why me? And that's, that's the day. The next day, didn't I call you? I called, I found you on the internet and I looked up you and looked up your stuff and I called you and I gave you that story. And I was like, this is it. I want to be a principal. And come on, I need some—

That was the pivotal moment where you were like, I am going to sort this out.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, your experience was quite extreme and it was very emotionally heavy, but I know that a lot of people have had very similar experiences. So thank you so much for sharing that because I know that it'll resonate with a lot of people. And especially when something like that happens, it can be very, very difficult to recover from because you can start to think that if there is something wrong with you or that you didn't do something right, you know, and it It has nothing to do with your skills because your value and your ability to do the job were always the same. It was just that what we make those circumstances and what we make those events mean that can then interfere with how you proceed in your career and what you're able to achieve.

Exactly. And it makes you feel like, am I not worthy of this? Is this just not my path? You know, I just felt, I just felt so devalued. And I was just like, you know, this is just not meant to be. Even though I know I can do the job, obviously the universe is trying to tell me something different.

Yeah. And that's the pivotal moment where instead of believing that you were like, no, I'm going to figure this out no matter what. And then you took a different step, which is now, you know, fast forward to today, you're in your assistant principal role from that, from that time. But yeah, it's very, it's a very critical moment where something like that happens. Either it's an interview experience like that, or maybe somebody like Some of my clients have been laid off in the past or any sort of experience that makes you feel so devalued that you can then choose to say, oh, it must not be meant to be. I'm not worthy. I can't do it versus I'm going to figure this out, which is what you did, which is what, what now fast forward to today shows how you were able to reap the benefits of that because you were not willing to sit down and just be like, okay, that's it. That must be it then. Right? Because there was something inside of you that was like, no, I was meant for this. And like, I felt that like right away when I met you, I was like, you were meant To do this job. Like, there's no way you're not doing this job in your life because this is what you were obviously born to do. So, so how do you think your thoughts changed about yourself? So you had this experience and then you had a few other experiences that were kind of, you know, that went better, and you started to kind of gain some confidence and feel a bit better or feel a bit differently about yourself and be more grounded in your own value and self-worth. How do you think your mindset shifted from that experience to when you interviewed again after that and were able to show up a lot more confidently?

So again, your coaching, and I'm not only just saying that because you're interviewing me, but one of the things I would spend so much time on is the skill, the content, the areas, just the skill of things that I already knew I could do with my eyes closed. You know, at that part I would say, okay, let me read more articles on how to do certain strategies in reading and ELA. And one of the pieces that I missed and I totally neglected was the other side, how I show up.

Mm-hmm.

Right. You can— so I was just like, why am I missing this piece? I know these things because I coach teachers and I know it's all about mindset, right?

And

how you show up. You can be like very skilled, but if you don't show up a certain way, especially when it comes to leading schools, it's all about having charisma and, and passion. And, and I, and I have all these things and I just wasn't showing up as myself because the fear would just take over.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's what happened. The fearful thoughts of like, I'm not worthy, or what if they're thinking this, or what were some some of those fearful thoughts that took over?

Well, am I— well, a lot to do with speaking. And am I saying that sentence correct? Or am I saying the right thing when it comes to, you know, you get up, you know, interviewing for teacher or any education job is hugely based on storytelling. Right.

So

it's just like, Am I telling enough of the story? But I didn't really know how to tell my stories, you know, with impact to show, you know, just show some type of—

No, but really show the impact of what you were doing.

The impact of it all, right? I had so many great stories. And also what they want to know is, how do you learn? What did you learn from these stories? And what was the outcome of these stories, whether they be positive or negative? There is a lesson in every story. So I guess I wasn't really showing up in that way because I was just trying to be too perfect. I wanted to have all the answers, you know, so I just overthought trying to just show up just as this perfect being. So I— instead of just leading, um, with my natural personality. I was literally in my head the whole time worrying about what they thought of what I said. Oh, was my story the right story? Oh, um, did I, did I, um, give the right word to describe that? And so it was totally, totally, I was totally in my head.

Yeah. So just a lot of second-guessing. Am I doing it right? Am I saying what they want? Am I doing, am I saying the exact right, perfect thing? When really all that you had to do was show up as you had been at your job and talking about the things that you've done and sharing facts about things that you've done, because you had all the credentials, all the experience, you had everything that was required. It was just about bridging that gap between knowing that in your heart and then just being able to freely talk about it without worrying about judgment from other people.

Right. And that passion— my passion wasn't— my passion wasn't showing through because you have to have a love and passion for children. And I wasn't showing up that way because I was just so in my head about if someone on the panel would be interviewing me and they made a certain face. Oh, that was it. That was the end of me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very, very not unusual for that to happen, especially when we're not— we're not aware of it. Right. So in that moment, we think, oh my God, they don't like me. This isn't going to work. And then the rest of the interview can be sabotaged just by one look that someone makes or one one comment someone makes that we can take the wrong way or something. So it's easy— you're easily thrown off when you're not grounded in your own confidence and your own ability. Yeah, awesome. Okay, so let's fast forward to today and what has shifted now as far as your interviewing mindset goes and how you think about interviewing now.

So I've been interviewing a lot, and what I noticed, I had the most success feeling, successful feeling, like when I was finished with the interview, when I just showed up as myself. And when I just started showing up as myself and just having a conversation, I mentally started to prepare myself before the interview. I said, I'm not going to call this an interview. This is a meeting. This is something that I do every day, all day. I have conversations with A bunch of stakeholders all day, every day in my role. So this is no different. You're just having a conversation.

Yeah. So just framing what the interview means. It's a conversation.

Yeah.

Conversation

about yourself and the job. And you're telling stories about yourself. Who tells your stories better than you? Nobody. Right. So once I started to just start flowing and just thinking that way, like this is just a conversation. I love having conversations, especially about myself, right? So my school and my kids and my teachers and my experience. So this is what it became. And guess what, Natalie? The shift happened. I started to have fun.

I love that so much.

Oh, can you believe?

That's like the biggest win even. Like if you can have fun in an interview, then you have made it for the rest of your career because you are no longer afraid. You're now looking forward to it.

My goodness. I said, me. It became— it's like I was looking forward. I'm showing up early and I'm just ready to log on. And literally, I was just so excited to hear, to get the questions. Come on. Yeah. I just wanted— I wanted to just start like showing off and, and I made them laugh. They would crack up at me. And this is me. Like, this is me naturally telling my little jokes. I said to one of them when they said— the question was, tell me about yourself. And I was just like, OK, I knew my audience, right? I had 2 parents on this team, selection team, and I said, you know what, I know I had to, I had to include that I'm a mother of a 25-year-old. And I threw in the joke, oh, don't let the skin fool you. Yes, I do have a 25-year-old. You know what I mean? And that's how I would be at work, you know, you know, talking to my people, my parents, my, you know, and they cracked up. They was probably like, no, she didn't just say this during the interview. Yes, I did.

And that's what so many people are afraid to do because they think that it's supposed to be this polished, buttoned-up scenario where you have to appear perfect. But really, they want you to be you because that's who they're going to be working with, right? So we want them—

Especially if I end up at an elementary school with a bunch of little people, that's all about having fun with them, right?

Yeah, exactly. And so, um, what was it that you— was there like a particular thought or moment where you consciously were like, I get to just be me, and if they like me, great, and if they don't, great? Or how do you think you navigated around that? Because I know a lot of people are afraid to let their personality shine through because they're afraid of being judged.

Well, when during this one interview, which actually is the school that I ended up getting, when the principal had to jump into the interview and say, guys, we have other people to interview, like, come on, shut up, because they could not Stop. It's like they couldn't get enough of me.

Yeah, because they were having so much fun with you.

It's like I'm— I was just like this magnet. And you know what, that's me, my life. Like, people get— like, even at work and the relationships that I have at work and outside, like, it's just that I just have that type of magnetic personality that needed to come through, and it did, you know. And it was just like, they were just like— so they just— it was again a conversation, and he had to interrupt and say Hello, we got other people. Uh, Ms. Grant, do you have any more questions for us?

Yeah, and, and also like assessing that it— like when you can show up fully as yourself, let your full personality shine through, and they love it and they get along with you so well, it's such an indicator that it's like the perfect fit for you, right? And if you had showed up like that and it hadn't have gone as well, it would have been an indicator that it wasn't the best fit for you. So either way, I really strongly advocate for what you did, which is just Let yourself be you because that's how you're going to be when you're on the job. And that's how you're going to be when you're, when you're most successful and working in your own zone of genius. So, but I know it's difficult for a lot of people to do that because they think that, oh, we need to show up a certain way in the interview, but that's a myth. Right. And you've just proven that right, right there. So.

And another thing too, like I can be that comfortable because as far as the instructional leader piece, I'm very strong already in that area.

Right.

So I, of course, I'm not trying to say that they only had questions just about just like me and who I am. They had some instructional questions. They gave me case studies and I could, again, I lived that. So I was able to answer those questions very well. So I'm not trying to undermine not being skilled. Right.

No, I think that's a good point that you make because just being skilled is good. But if, if they're— if you're up against somebody who's just skilled, but also they get along with really well, they're going to likely gravitate to the person that is both, right?

Mm-hmm.

That is a good fit and is skilled. And we had no doubts about you being skilled from the beginning, right? That's why I was saying you were made for the job. You had all the skills, all the competencies, like more than you even needed, right? And how you spoke about having been in, in the same role for a long time and even working as an assistant principal, not with the full title, but like working ahead with the leadership skills, constantly in that growth mindset, always knowing that that's where you were headed. Yes. Also had a lot to do with building your skills. So your skills and your concrete, like, hard skills were always there, but it's, it's with the ability to express your personality that the combination of your skills and being able to connect on a personal level is like the magic formula.

Yes.

That worked really well, especially for you. But also like you're just— your ability to relax and be like, I know my stuff. Like I actually do know my stuff and not having anything to hide or any specific way that you needed to be, right? How we often get caught into that. So yeah. So what if you would have to say it was one thing that like shifted your ability to interview from going, going from before where you were scared of interviewing, didn't know what to say, were trying to second-guess yourself all the time, get it right, to I'm totally myself and I know exactly how to, how to speak, how to tell my stories, I'm excited to— what would you say was like the defining factor in the middle?

When I learned to, um, What's the word I use with you? Disassociate myself during that time. And I don't really confuse people with that word.

Yeah, like I'm unattached.

Yeah, yeah, just showing up. Not as before, I felt like I was just really anxious because I just wanted it so bad. I was more relaxed and was like, if it doesn't happen, it's just not meant to be.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean? Because I've made it into the pool and that's, you know, that's good. But at the end of the day, it's just not meant to be. I wasn't as anxious.

Yeah. Or this particular one wasn't meant to be, but there would be another one that would work out. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, not just keeping that positive mindset through it all. You know what I mean? Like Natalie was just like, you know what happened to me back in April? There was a hiring freeze. I was on a roll and I just still had to keep my positive mindset. This is just a temporary setback. I'm not, going to kick myself down. I'm not going to be there. I'm going to continue with my positive mindset and my growth mindset.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So the principle I think you're talking about is the high intention, low attachment. So you went in there with a high intention to show them what you were capable of, be very present, do your very best, but you were unattached to the outcome, which is something that's very difficult for people to grasp, right? Because people can be very attached to the outcome without really realizing it. And so that was very, like, very articulate of you say that, like, disassociated, but like, I think what you meant was unattached. But having that really high intention to show up as your best and release all the self-judgment or the self-doubt that you might've had from the previous interview and just be like, I'm just going to do my very best. Yeah. And what you had was really incredible because of all the experience that you'd gone through and being willing to put yourself forward for the interviews, even when they didn't work out, or even when there was a hiring freeze, or even when Something got canceled at the last minute, like you were still moving forward and being like, well, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, but I'm still in it for the end result.

Totally out of my control.

Yeah.

And the disassociation piece that I meant too was disassociation, disassociating from those people in front of me.

Yeah.

Movement. No, I don't even see you.

Yeah,

I'm really talking through— it's like when you have to give a speech to a large group, you know what I mean? You can't just pay attention to everyone. You just have to kind of see— not that you don't make eye contact, but you just have to see past all of that and just continue being who you are.

Yeah, and focusing— very good point that you made— focusing on what you can control, right? And like, their reaction is out of your control. Your reaction— their reaction doesn't mean anything about you. It's about what you can control and how you show up that you put all your focus in. And that's why you were able to show up the way that you did in such a successful manner.

Yes.

Amazing. Amazing. So what nugget of information would you want someone to walk away with who is having the same feelings that you were at the beginning, where they're terrified of interviewing, maybe they've had a bad experience? What would you want them to know?

Natalie, for a long time I was that person, and I don't want to undermine their feelings in any way, but just being there for so many years— when I tell you, I used to get sick on the stomach. I used to— I put in my— Want to just run and just hide under a rock. I totally understand that, but If they could only work on being in touch with those feelings, learning to do certain exercises during, like breathing exercises during and before the interview. Like, it's a lot. It's really psychological.

Mm-hmm.

And again, everything that I'm saying in this, this interview with you about just learning to disassociate, you control what you can control. You can control what you say and how you show up, and you want to show up as your best self. This is your only opportunity to showcase you, yourself, and tell your story. So what I'm saying is just like work on all of those things. Breathe in.

Mm-hmm.

When you find yourself getting a little nervous in the interview, guess what? Take a deep breath. And just continue. And even if you have to play mind games with yourself like I did, call it— instead of calling it an interview, call it a meeting. This is something that I'm sure you guys, they do anyway, right?

Yeah.

You know, they've done it at some point. Right. And you want to show up as your true authentic self if that's this person that you have to be anyway in the job.

Absolutely.

You can't fake it until you make it. That's bullcrap.

Absolutely, totally agree with that. Yeah. And I'm just thinking, like, it's such a gift that now this school is going to have you working as the assistant principal and all, all of the things that we worked on and coached on together. I was so inspired by your passion to make an impact with the students and all the things that you're going to be able to do in this role. And I can't imagine that not being a thing because of a fear of interviewing. And I just want to say that It's so admirable that you— because it was a journey, right? You had to go through a lot of obstacles to get to this point. You had to— like, there was a long time where you felt stuck. And getting to the point where now you get to make this impact is going to open up so much more for so many more students. And you're going to have the opportunity to touch the lives of so many more students and impact them because you went through this and conquered your fear.

Yes.

So it's such a beautiful thing to be able to be a part of and witness and see. I mean, you did all of the work, but I was so happy to be there with you and kind of shine a light on the things that you weren't seeing because you were so caught up in the second-guessing, and which is normal, right? We're humans and that's what we do. But if the— for the listeners out there who are listening, it's just really important that you see that there's one thing that's getting in the way of you having a bigger impact and doing what you really love and were meant to do. Right. There was a reason why you were meant to be an assistant principal and in the future, a principal and take your journey. There's a reason why you want to do that. It's because you're meant to do it.

Yes, absolutely. And I had to, I couldn't wait to share the great news with you because—

Oh, tell them what they said when they, called you to offer you the position.

Yes, yes. So me, little old me, uh, the, the— okay, so with Philadelphia, you interview with the principal and the school team, but it's not their ultimate, their last, their decision to choose you. There's another piece. You have to interview again now with what they call the assistant sup, the boss of like the whole like region. So you now have to— I had to interview with him. So you make it through that round with You know, the school team, and they passed on 2 names to the assistant sup. So I had my interview with the assistant sup, and when he called after, after the interview, you know, we, you know, I interviewed, and he called me a few days later and he told me, he called me personally and said, congratulations, I want to let you know that you got the position and you're going to— we want to offer you the position, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he just started to talk. He said, but I just have to let you know something. And I was like, what? He said, in all the years I've been in education for 50 years, he said, in all the years I've been principals and every superintendents and everything, and all of the interviews that I've done, yours was the most perfect interview that I had experienced. Your interview was perfect. When we went through the score, perfect. Never ever ever did I have someone interview as perfectly, perfectly as you did.

Wow.

And I said, what? I couldn't even tell you what I said to him.

I didn't even know what to say.

No, not even that. I didn't even remember what I said. But for him to say the most perfect— he said it was damn near perfect, 100% in all the—

you know what's so ironic too? Because you're like, when you were trying to be perfect and trying to think of the right things, that's when you're not. That's when you don't think of the right things, when you're leaning into being yourself, then you get that feedback that your interview was perfect. I love it.

All the domains, the leadership domains, perfect, perfect, perfect. You got a perfect. And I was just like, thank you. It's been a long time coming, sir. Thank you so much.

Wow. That's incredible feedback to receive. And, and also like just the fact that you were showing up As yourself, right? It was just like a perfect fit.

I had no idea.

Yeah, so awesome and inspiring. Amazing. Well,

and Natalie,

yeah,

the interview with the big boss of the boss of the bosses—I didn't even get nervous before that interview.

Okay, why do you think you didn't get nervous at all?

I just said, it's just a conversation.

Yeah,

he's gonna— what is he gonna ask me? It's just a conversation. If I don't know how to answer whatever he's gonna ask me, I know how to answer it anyway, right?

Yeah,

you know how to pull, you know, pull things in and, you know, talk.

Yeah.

Literally, I was just like, um, wow. And I was so like impressed with myself that I didn't even get nervous beforehand. I just did my little breathing exercises and came and sat and waited and

interviewed.

Had a conversation.

Yeah. Well, I mean, getting nervous is because of the thoughts that we have about something not working out or something that we're predicting, right? That's why nervousness comes about. And I think that with you, you were so grounded already in your qualifications, your abilities, and the fact that you were being yourself and you were unattached to the outcome probably helped you to be like, well, you know what? Whatever happens happens. I'm just going to show up as my best That's self. And that's ultimately the key to success because either way, you're going to get the result that you wanted or you're going to continue on and get the result that you wanted later on. But either way, you're going to be committed to the result, which is, which is why you were successful. But you did go through your trials and tribulations to get here. So it was very well deserved. Like nobody deserves it more. Right?

Right. And you know, another thing too, I think I was just super proud of myself just for making it this far. So I had that confidence just because I, I never even imagined that I would even get that far. Even if I didn't get the position, I had the confidence to know that I could get this far.

Mm-hmm.

So it was just like that boosted my confidence as well.

And all of this experience and everything that you went through is going to make you an even better leader, right? Like having gone through all this, because everybody has to go through their trials and tribulations at some point, right? Everybody goes through failure. Everybody goes through experiences that are not so pleasant. And now you get to kind of look back on this, reflect on it, and see where you made the shifts and help others, including the students and the faculty that you're going to be mentoring and helping and All that's going to contribute to your ability to make an impact with the school in the future as well. So bring all that with you.

And a word that I used a lot through my coaching with you was humbling.

I remember that. Yeah. And I thought you— that was something that you really took to heart. Like when somebody gave you feedback, you were really like, listened to that feedback and really like took it to heart and was like, okay, is that something I need to work on? Is that true? Okay. let's fix that, or let's take a look at that, right? Which I think is something super important that also made you the great leader that you are, is because you are always thinking about how can I grow, right? Instead of getting defensive and being like, I didn't do that, or that's not what I meant. You're like, okay, let's take a look at that. How could I grow? Which is something that I'm sure that like people will be able to see and make them— makes them more comfortable to work with you too, right? They're like, okay, well— she's human too. She understands. And it just kind of makes you somebody that people are comfortable to be around, somebody people want to talk to, somebody people don't want to interview other people. They just want to keep talking to you. So embracing that part as well, which is something that I know a lot of people have a hard time with, is embracing that it's okay to be human. Um, one thing I was curious about, did they ask you about a time that you made a mistake or When something didn't go your way or anything like that?

Absolutely. And it was, um, X on every one of my interviews about something about— they more so phrased it when you got pushback from, let's say, a teacher.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, sort of, which is the sort of type, type of question. Yeah. And I just went straight into my coaching.

Mm-hmm.

When I went in too fast. Wanting to be a know-it-all.

And

I just thought I knew what was best for the teacher, and it totally backfired on me. Remember that story?

Yeah, yeah.

I just— oh, I taught 3rd grade before. I taught it for 10 years, and I'm the best at what I do. I, I, I'm supposed to be the coach. And my principal was like, come on, you need to go and coach her, help her. And I went in as a know-it-all, and it totally backfired on me. So that was the story, one of the stories that I told.

Yeah. And so I love that story because it's kind of showing this is how I was. I realized that I was wrong or I was approaching it in a way that wasn't working. So I looked at that and then I did it this way and this worked better. And now I'm a better person because of it. I was humbled, how you like to say it. And a lot of people are afraid to talk about their mistakes, right? They don't want to talk about a time they made a mistake or a time that they screwed something up because they're afraid it's going to hurt their interview or they're afraid someone's going to have a judgment about it. And so just going on what we were talking about earlier is like your willingness to just embrace being human, embrace being humbled, being willing to be humbled and just being like, yeah, I was wrong about that.

Totally.

Just releases all the tension and also just makes people like, makes you somebody that people want to work with. Right. Because they're like, okay, well, obviously she saw that that wasn't working. So she changed it. And like, there's no tension there. There's no, there's no issues. Like it's very difficult to have an issue with somebody who's just really open. and open to feedback like that. So great example of that.

And, and, and what was threaded throughout all of, most of my answers was relationships, relationship building, mutual respect, anything to do with relationships. I made sure I pulled in, 'cause that's very important in, in, in, in what we do in education, building those relationships, those meaningful trusting relationships. And I totally ruined it. With that, that example that I gave, went in, thought I knew it all, wanted to take over her class pretty much. It didn't work for the relationship. It didn't work with the— for the trust. So that's one of my favorite stories.

And knowing— and that was part of your journey, right? Part of getting where you are was willing to get it wrong sometimes, right? Willing to screw up and go and do something that didn't work and being Like being able to talk about that and being able to be like, I understand why it didn't work now. And now this is how I approach it. And this is what does work. Right. And being, making that a strength versus a weakness. And because we're all human and we all do have times when we approach something in the wrong way and it doesn't work. Right. Right. And

yeah,

trying to cover it up or not wanting to talk about it openly just Creates more of a problem than just openly talking about it because we all have it. So yeah. And also honing in on the fact that you knew that relationships was a strength of yours, right? Like, even if it— like, from all the learning that you did and from all the times that you— because I remember we also had conversations about how you said, oh, I said this and some people didn't like it, or I made a decision and it was unpopular, or— and how you dealt with all of that, right? And being able to be the person who's like, yeah, I understand that not everything I do is always going to succeed, but I can be proud of how I take the feedback and what I learned from it and how I move forward from it.

And then some, some of the mistakes took years just to rebuild those relationships back up for them to trust me, you know what I'm saying? And I talked to that— I talked to you about those situations. Yeah, but it's going great. grade team. It took years of rebuilding those relationships with that particular grade team.

Yeah, but I was willing to do the work. Yeah, I do remember that. Yeah, and it just goes to show that there's nothing that you can't recover from.

Yeah,

right. So whatever it was that you said back then and however it was that you acted, as long as you're willing to be a human and come back with a new approach, there's really very little, if anything, that can't be recovered from.

Nope.

So

just have to feel that you're genuine. And again, respect, respect. And you just have to be very genuine and vulnerable.

And we change a lot, right? Like, especially you who's always in the growth mindset of like, okay, I want to fix this, like making the decision of like, okay, I want to repair this. This is what I want my outcome to be. And then working towards it, then it's definitely something that's going to happen. It's when we kind of give up on it subconsciously and are like, oh, it's not going to work, then that's when we kind of close off all the opportunities. But, but that is something about you that will mean that you always succeed in what you want to do, is that you're always open to it and you're always willing to keep going to find the answer and do the next thing that's going to work. So amazing. Well, is there anything else you'd like to add? I think I've asked all, all of my questions, and I think you've given everybody a really good picture of your journey and It's been very inspiring so far. Is there anything else you'd like to say?

Yes, one thing. One more thing.

Okay,

so I want to leave you— leave them with this quote: Knowing your craft alone doesn't make you great. Being coachable is what makes you great.

Mm, so good.

And I feel that where my growth has come, being coachable.

So good. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I mean, that's where I attribute everything of mine too, is being coachable. Yeah. I'm going to cry. Oh, thank you. That was amazing. I haven't ever— do you know who said that or is it an anonymous one?

So I'm in this assistant principals group and one of the assistant principals said it in my group the other morning and one of my, in my Classes. We have these Saturday morning classes.

Amazing. And yeah, and one other thing I'll add is I remember that you, you, when we worked together, I showed you some of the coaching tools that I use and then we broke them down and you were so eager to learn about these coaching tools so that you could go and take them to others and coach others as well as taking the knowledge yourself. And so I feel like you kind of got like a double lesson because you got Coached yourself and then you learned how to coach so that you could go and be more effective as a coach yourself, which I thought was very smart of you.

Coaching moves. I'm almost— I'm always watching people, like especially coaches. Yeah, even like knowing that not only coaches, coaches in education. My son works in the NFL in Houston. He works for the Houston Texans. And I mean, I even read his leadership books because we share the same Kindle account. He has a lot of books on coaching and leadership in that field. So I'm always watching moves. I watch the moves of people. Yeah. And I watched you and how you coached me and I would go and use it.

I know. I noticed that none of my other clients have done that before. So I was noticing that I was just like, she's like getting double for what, for the investment here. Cause she's like learning how to be a coach and she's taking the coaching and Yeah, I thought that was pretty smart. Amazing. All right, well, thank you so much for that amazing quote. It was a great place to leave it. I know our listeners are going to be so inspired and so happy to hear your story, and it was an absolute honor to work with you. And thank you so much. And maybe in the future we'll have you on again when you're a principal and doing other big things in the world.

Excuse me.

All right. Okay. Bye.

All right. Bye-bye.