Turning Down Offers To Get What You Really Want - Client Success Story With Ric Barrosa

All right, welcome everybody to the podcast. We have a very special guest on today, Rick Barroso, and he's going to share with us the story of our work together and where he was and where he is now. He's coming from the supply chain industry, manufacturing and retail. And Rick, please go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.

Okay. Hi, Natalie and everybody else. Um, really Actually ecstatic to be able to talk to you, given the journey that I've been on, of which Natalie's been really important in. So my background, let's see, probably 20+ years in the supply chain space, a lot of different industries from retail apparel, information technology, into now a manufacturer of retail packaged goods. I've probably filled a lot of different roles within that. Most recently, in my, in my current role, I was a senior supply chain manager, which basically I controlled roughly an $85 million spend to basically purchase the appropriate inventory from all of our manufacturing locations around the world and bring that into the US market to satisfy a sales plan that's developed by our sales team. And I interface with them. And then all of the, I guess, ancillary activity that goes with all of that, from cutting purchase orders and managing logistics and so forth.

A lot of responsibility. Yeah. You make it sound easy.

Yeah, it's definitely of late has been more than an 8-hour day.

Yeah, yeah, we'll get into that. So, okay, so the first thing, like, I'm so excited to talk to you, so I have so many questions. So the first thing I wanted to talk about was like if you think you could take a snapshot of your brain like before, um, and before where you were at and describe that when we first started talking and when you first started diving into this process.

Into this process. So if, uh, At a certain point, I'm going to preface this a little bit with kind of my mindset to set this up, I think.

Yeah, that's what we want.

Yeah. I had made a decision it was time to move on. Okay. So if I have firmly cemented that in my thinking, the— Yeah.

Where did you feel yourself kind of getting stuck after that decision?

Yeah, it was effectively, are the things and skills that I, that I perceive to have, are these things even of any value in the marketplace? Because it's been 10 years since I've really tried to look.

Right.

Um, and with that, then, you know, have times passed me by? Have I just cornered myself into an industry or a way of doing things that Maybe I can't demonstrate can be done in other organizations.

Yeah,

potentially other industries, right?

Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because a lot of people are in the same spot. So this is one of my questions that I'll just move up on the list, was how did you make that shift about your value? Because I know we had conversations about that. I know you told me you were not sure about it, and then I was kind of like, this is kind of what I love doing, is like, what are you talking about? So how did you make that shift? Because it doesn't matter what I think, it's what you had to make that shift,

right? Right. No, I get you. Um, I think fundamentally, there's probably a couple things I'd say is, first, it's realizing that it's my own thought process and my own thinking that's leading me to that conclusion.

Mm-hmm.

And this isn't— and it's very— and in that regard, without— while I approach it because it's my own thinking as something very objective, In the grand scheme of things, in the larger market, it's definitely subjective. Um, it's, it's probably rooted more in my experiences that I've had and not really what's happening in the real world, I guess.

Yeah, exactly, because you're so in your own bubble, in the same place with the same people doing the same thing.

Yeah, it's

that you're like, is anyone else even gonna care about this?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, okay, gotcha. And then, and could you kind of elaborate on like some of the specific thoughts you had about it? Like, was it, was it like, I'm not sure that anyone else is gonna find this valuable? And then how did you shift to like, of course, like I know what I'm doing and I can provide value somewhere else as well?

That's a good question. So I think it, in some cases I made a lot of mistakes in interviews. So I would say I started to realize that the questions that they were asking and what they were looking to get out of me started to yield to me that, no, these are in fact things I know how to do. I wasn't addressing them correctly, right? And when I was answering, right, I was bombing these interviews left and right. But, but it was definitely, I could see like, okay, there's something there. I'm just not, I'm not hitting it right. My mindset, there's something not right with how I'm thinking about what I do. And I'm not conveying it to them in a way that they can understand the value of it.

Yeah. So there was a disconnect between your actual work and capability to how you were saying it and how you were showing up.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Or trying to, trying to see it maybe from their perspective to a certain extent.

Yeah.

Right. To see how I could try to say it differently or contextualize it so they'd get it in their setting.

Yeah. And that took a mindset shift from you. I remember you were saying, I was thinking about the interview all wrong and now I'm thinking about it a different way. And now I'm showing up differently.

Yeah. Like, this might sound weird, but I get goosebumps when I think about that moment a lot. It was really a paradigm shift. It was— as soon as you kind of unlock it, it's like this— it's like you just start thinking that way and you start saying things in that way.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

That's what I wish I could explain to people. That's how it's possible, right? It's like you have it in you already.

It's there.

Yeah. It's just like there's this blocker. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you did mention it and correct me if I'm wrong. It was something around like, I need to get this right. What do they want to hear from me?

Yeah, exactly. So not knowing what they wanted to hear or how they wanted to hear it, it felt like— and I can remember, I think I might even talk to you about it during our sessions. I felt like it was like a lot of— I call it like game theory, right? Or, you know, they're gonna ask a question, I'm gonna answer it this way, and then they're gonna come back and then I'm gonna answer it and I have to get it just, you know, kind of planned.

Yeah, planned and calculated.

Yeah. And just being thoroughly— I'd get in an interview and be lost. It just felt like that didn't go well.

Yeah, kind of like you're trying to follow this map and then something comes up and it's not on the map and you're like, what now?

Yeah, I'd even say to a certain extent, To a certain extent, these answers came across as really rehearsed or forced. They were like, it was very canned. And since that was my go-to, when I think, like, when I catch the gist of their question, I just go right to that canned response because that's what I thought they wanted to hear.

Yeah, I think you described it really well. I think that's what my clients normally, like, that's what everyone tells me. They're like, I've tried to practice this, and then when they say it, it's either different or I do say it and it doesn't—

Yeah.

Yeah. So what about after? So describe— so that's how it was before, which is like hearing it in your words is really valuable for people. And then for after, how you made the shift to showing up totally differently and just killing it in all these interviews.

Yeah. It was— I really approached it as being able to state to them on my terms in, but yet in a context that they would understand what I can do. Yeah. I really try to focus in and center around the value of what I have done in the past, what it's meant to past organizations. And then I tried to, honestly, I would look into the job description a certain amount or what I gathered from maybe talking with an HR recruiter before talking with the hiring manager. And try to understand their verbiage that they use, uh, some of the keys that they use to try to then say, okay, I've done it here and this is what it meant. And here's how I think I can make it work where you're at based on what I've heard or read.

Yeah. And it sounds like totally a different mindset and like, I'm actually curious about what they need and how I can help them versus I'm going to try and give them these canned responses and hope it works.

Yeah, I know. Exactly. And then the other part I'd say is then I'd even be able to ask them, After I say something like that is like, does that sound right? I mean, are you looking for that type of result? And then it turns into this conversation about what they're trying to do.

And

now you're just— now it went from this total fear about getting the answer right before to now it's this conversation about supply chain or planning or supply planning or manufacturing.

Yeah.

And I know those things.

Exactly. I was like, you feel very comfortable with that. It's like, that's what you do every day, all day. You know how to talk about it. Yes, exactly.

about that. And yeah, yeah, so I can't— probably 2 or 3 interviews I remember we went like 45 minutes long or something crazy. Yeah, we just got lost, right?

Yeah, just geeking out on what you both want to get done. Yeah, totally. And that sounds like so much more of a fun experience. Like, I remember after you'd go for an interview, you'd be like, I did really well, it went really well.

Yeah, it was fun.

It was—

yeah, yeah, it was like an opportunity to find out what their, their problems were Yeah. And it was a real chance, like, you then, you know, I think what it does is it gets both parties operating in a zone of comfort. And you're just now convert— you get to find out about the organization and the people and how they run and what they really want and what they're like.

Yeah.

And then you can kind of say to yourself, do I want to work for these guys or with these guys?

Exactly. Yeah. And that's the second part, which I was going to ask you about, like, identifying that. Yeah. So, and that's totally just where you went with it, right? You're like, naturally just like, okay, so do Do I want this? Like, I know I can help them or I can try to help them, but do I actually want this?

Yeah. And the only thing I'd add to that, Natalie, and I'm probably jumping ahead to your questions, but—

No worries.

I'm destroying your interview here, but—

No, that's okay. We're not on a script here.

I think the— I would, early on, right, when I first started this whole interview process before I started working with you and understanding what this is really about. I would read that you want— you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. And I would just read that and I think that's balderdash because I don't even know how to ever sway a conversation into that. Like, I just—

Yeah.

There's no way. And just all through this whole process now, it's been like, oh, well, that's how that happens. So I felt like in many ways, you know, I could absolutely judge whether I wanted to work for somebody or not, right? You know, Yeah, within, within the context of the interview, right?

So totally. And it's kind of like you get— you can hear something and then it doesn't mean anything, and then you learn how to do it, and then it's like a new level. Yeah, yeah. Because I think that's a very underrated statement. It's like we are interviewing them as much as they're interviewing us, but we don't really do it. We don't really take it seriously.

We do not. Yeah. Yep.

So that's something that you started doing and really helped, and also helps them, right? It helps them to see, okay, he's actually really serious. He has these questions. He wants to know. Yeah. So it really raises Absolutely

does,

yeah. Awesome. So the next thing I wanted to talk about was, um, you turned down an offer early on. And I, I know this is something that a lot of people would just be like, oh my God, how could you do that, right? It was a good offer, right? Um, and I wanted to ask you about that and what gave you the courage to turn that down, because you were very clear in the end. We were like, this is not for me. And you know how you kind of went through that in your head?

Yeah, great question. So in terms of the timing of that offer, when that happened, I think we had just started working together. I think it was maybe 2 or 3 weeks in, and I remember telling you like, hey, I'm thinking I'm gonna get this offer. I found a way to kind of get through that one. Mm-hmm. So there's a couple of things I had to weigh that really kind of weighed greatly in that decision. The first one was, is this offer appealing to me because it gets me out of the situation that I'm in right now? And I was really terrified of that. I didn't simply want to move on because it was time to move on and I had decided months prior that I needed to. I really wanted it to be something, you know, that I wanted, right?

Yeah.

That was, I think, primary number one. And then number two, the job wasn't really what I wanted to do, believe it or not. It was what I could do and not what I wanted to do. Yeah.

You're like, I could do this. And also the salary wasn't really comparable to what you wanted.

Right. Well, that's where I was going to head next. And because it was something I could do, like it, it kind of checked enough boxes. Well, I could do it, I could probably be successful at it. Is there opportunity for improvement and changes? There are. They weren't so clear, but they potentially were there.

Mm-hmm.

Um, again, it was probably a little bit of my— I would say still my lack of being able to interview properly, to interview them properly as part of this process that I did. I wasn't quite sure And then I think on top of that, then because it was something I have done or did do, the salary was about what I was doing now. And then I stopped and looked at it and you, you didn't tell me not to take it. That's obviously true, but definitely from the questions you asked, you got the right sort of thinking going.

Got to the core of what you really wanted.

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. It made sense that it was something I didn't want to do.

Yeah. And I just like to check with people like, are we making the right decision here? Is this the right decision for you? Because—

Yeah, absolutely.

And it took a lot of courage to do that too, I think, because you applied, you got this offer, and I know you were really excited about the fact that you got the offer and that it was a 6-figure offer and you'd not gotten that before. And it was And then it's like, well, you know what? I'm actually going to turn this down. And that probably felt really good.

It did. But I know one of the things that I also learned that I used it for, and I think you helped me with a lot to make me feel comfortable with it, is to counter the offer and really, really kind of, you know, because the pay wasn't there. And I was like, well, right. I kind of decided that definitely at the level that they got me at, it was below what I was making now. And I got them to match at least what I was doing now. In that role through the counteroffer process about how to go through it. That really helped. I liked the fact that I got to do that and I felt like I had some control in this whole process, you know, to kind of drive that. So that was, it was good for that, but it was still the wrong thing to go do.

Exactly. Yeah. And I like to call those things like confidence builders.

Yeah.

Like you get to see they're reaffirming that, you know, my skills are valuable and I am needed, but this is just not the right one for me.

Yeah, definitely a validation of all those things.

Absolutely. Yeah. And the point I wanted to make was it just, it takes a lot of belief in yourself to be like, this is not the right one, but I am going to get the right one. And then of course that happened.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, um, and as far as salary, are you comfortable telling us what you were making and what you're making now?

Um, so, uh, in the current, in the role that I'm in now, it was, uh, like $132,000 a year. After being there for 10 years, like working your way up.

Yeah. Right.

Working my way up to that. And the offer that I turned down was at $135,000, I believe. So basically the same sort of bonus and stuff. So not very much different. And did you ask me what I was going to do now or where I'm at?

Yeah, I was going to ask you later, but let's go into it now. We might as well.

Yeah. So now I just accepted an offer. I'll be making $150,000. $60K.

Yeah. So that's a huge jump. And that's the, like, the point I wanted to make is like, you hold out for that and you're like, I believe, like it was the belief that you had that your skills were worth it and your value was worth it. Yeah. And all the things that you kind of did to prove that.

Yep.

And that's kind of what I wanted to show as an example to people is like, yeah, you don't have to take the first thing that comes along. No. It's really in your belief to keep going.

Yep.

And it's not, it didn't even take you that long. So yeah. So I wanted to ask you about how the, the differences between your old company and Where and how you decided where you wanted to choose to go next?

That's a good question. So after turning that one down, and really, you, um, through some of the coaching that you did, I really got really focused around what I wanted, really what I really wanted, uh, got to the core of what that is. Um, you know, it, it started to kind of, um, I guess, focus me in on the roles that I was after. And in the industries that I wanted to be in. So just kind of at a high level, I really decided industries that had a way to give back to society in some regard. Not that I am not— haven't been in those in the past or currently now. It's just a less— it's probably more of an indirect contribution back to society. I wanted something more direct. Mm-hmm. And then I really decided that from a leadership perspective, right, it was definitely owning or harnessing, if you will, decision-making, decision makers, if you will, if not being a decision maker, harnessing the collective view and consensus making to go drive decisions of what to do next. So, and that's kind of more in a planning context, I guess.

Yeah.

Now, one thing that was important when I did that, right, and this kind of might have been one of those self-guided misbeliefs that I had as I went into this process was, well, I need to be a director, right? Yeah. And with that, to get to the salary I want to get to, I need to manage people because there's just no one's going to pay me what I think I'm going to pay to go do that. And, you know, as I kind of settled, sat in on it, one of the things I think that was important to me was if I was going to make sort of an industry shift and I had to learn a whole lot of new product, process, and all of that, you know, as long as the leadership opportunities are there, maybe the managing of people isn't such a good idea anymore. So I kind of kept my options open in that regard. Not that I didn't want to or couldn't, it was sort of like this other option that I thought, well, maybe it's possible, right? And maybe I even value that in some regards, depending on what the shift is going to be, right?

And also the fact that there, there is that opportunity later on, but when switching into a completely new industry,

Yeah, maybe I want to hit the pause button around all of the added challenges that managing people brings, right? But challenges yet still rewarding.

Yeah. And so just getting clear on what you wanted and ultimately being able to be happy and proud of what you accepted, right? And there's no right or wrong to that.

No. Right. Yeah, exactly right. And I think that sort of helped me guide about what to go pursue And where I would then apply to with a bit more focus, where before it was definitely see a job description on LinkedIn or wherever. I can do that. So I'll send a resume and apply, right?

Yeah.

You know, I do that over and over and over and over again. I kind of, I did get more directed.

And then what happens is you start getting the interviews for those things. And then you're like, oh, I'm gonna just get into another situation where I have to turn down these offers again.

Yeah, that, that I was in one of those shortly after the one I turned down. I wrote really far in the whole process and I'm looking at it going, God, this is a lot like the other one I turned down. Why am I in this? Yeah, exactly. Burning, you know, why am I burning the limited time I have to job search, right, in doing these things? So it really did get a bit more focused. And with that, I think I just, I applied to more meaningful things with a bit more sort of like concerted effort. more tailored resumes, more tailored cover letters, uh, uh, more direct sort of through LinkedIn or what have you, try to get a connection within that company. Yeah, not that that's what effectively got me interviews in any way, but I just— you could just be more focused that way.

Exactly.

I think you nailed

it. It's more focused, and, and it's kind of like how you are, how you're going along in the process. For those listening, it's like if you are, um, if you're at the stage where you're having trouble getting your resume and cover letter through the process, or you're having trouble getting interviews, then you want to be applying for everything. You want to be trying to get some conversations going and some stuff happening. But if you're at the point where you're getting lots of interviews, you really can't afford to be discerning about which ones you decide to go for. And then, and then when you actually do interview, you want to be really focused and really discerning about interviewing them and vice versa.

Yeah. And, and to your, to your point then, what, what that does is, you know, I think it just, um, you know, you're kind of It's a narrower selection, but you're more likely to get a hit. And when you get a hit, it's just so much more of a meaningful conversation when you speak to the, to the company about the role and what you can do. Yeah. That part to me, you know, I felt like, you know, there were times where it was just so scattered. I, you know, okay, what industry is this in that I'm going to talk to this person about and what's important there? And like, I have no idea. And it was really like, oh, and then I got to switch gears completely on the next day because it's a whole different industry.

Yeah, totally. It got a little nuts. Yeah.

And yeah, it probably showed in my interviews. Like, I doubt that not at all.

Right. Yeah. But it also kind of gave you some clarity along the way, right? So it did. It was just part of your process and there was no right or wrong to it. But it's just like, yeah, okay, so I did talk to this person and it was great conversation, but it's just not the industry I want. Right. Or you just kind of learn and you couldn't have known that unless you did it.

Right. Or you kind of start kind of bending what you think it is you want to do and how you do it into like, oh, I could do it there. Sure. And then just like Yeah, I don't know, man. It just feels—

yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that deep down, you know, right? Yeah, it's just like you start justifying.

Yeah, right.

And then making excuses and being like, oh well, I could make that work even though it's a huge commute.

And I— yeah, I know. And I remember there was one specific one, if you remember right, it was the tuna company.

Yeah, yeah.

My heart wasn't in it. I was full-on interviewing into it, and I'm like, why do I care?

Yeah, you're like, I don't really want this.

I didn't get it. No, I was kind of depressed I didn't get it. I'm like, I was making a million and one Sessions as to why it was a good idea to go do it. I don't know why I even thought.

Yeah, well, things work out. Things work out for you how they're supposed to work out, right? Especially when your belief is there, right? And and I think we came to the conclusion that you weren't like you weren't all in on the tuna.

Yeah, exactly.

So yeah, so and and I mean, I'm glad you you weren't because now you know look look what's been able to open up because of that, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So um what shifts come to mind like the main ones during our work together that really kind of moved that needle? So it was like your value, the value and discerning that you get to choose, that you have options. Anything else kind of come to mind?

Uh, I think one thing that was made clear to me through the kind of like your questions kind of taking you through a process, right? You kind of questioned a lot of, you know, a lot of the why did you do that? And so how did that make you feel? And one of the things I think I drew from that was effectively, like, there's a mindset, and that's a kind of a generic way to say you have a choice to make about how you think about what's happening to you, right?

Yeah.

You could go down a very negative path of sort of devaluing, if you will, what your experiences have been and the experiences you've had to date or in this process. And also even bigger with your own, like with your career and what it means. Or you could simply choose to say, well, no, like I'm, you know, I'm more valuable than that. I'm more valuable than just simply the last position that I tried for and didn't get. There is someone that is going to value what I have to bring to the table and it's going to yield Right? The pay that I'm expecting with the responsibility and role that I want to go get.

Yeah.

Yeah. I can't stress enough. I'm sorry. It's such a choice. And that hit me square in the face in talking with you over the course of the last couple months. Totally.

And I love that you said that because it's like, it's your choice, right? It's not someone else's choice how much you get paid. It might look like that, Like, it might be like, well, they offered me this and I need to get out of here, so this is— but it's not like that isn't the only choice.

Correct.

It just happens to be the choice in front of you, which is great that you had it, but you didn't have to take it, right? It's kind of like— I like using metaphors. It's like you're going— you're on a train and you can choose to get off at that stop or you can keep going and there's going to be another stop.

Yep. So, yeah, that's where I want to be. Yeah, exactly.

It's like you can take a look around and you can ask some questions and you can get back on the train and keep

going. That's exactly right.

Yeah. And I love how they said to you, they were like, well, if you change your mind, you can come.

Oh, right. Yeah. I was interviewing for another role and he's like, is it gonna be more than 2 weeks? I said, uh, maybe. And he goes, well, now it's time. You can always come back and just talk to me about it and see what we've got going on. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's just kind of like people have that fear around turning down an offer, right? Or they have a fear about leaving. And it's like, you always have to do what's best for you.

Correct.

Yeah. So, and every— and everybody else does what's best for them too, if they're not lying to themselves, right? So that's— it's okay to do that. So looking back at what you've been able to achieve, um, what are you most proud of?

Oh wow. Uh, probably given the situation and my current role and really being able to define what I wanted and just really going through with it, I guess. I don't know if that sounds a little—

Yeah, like staying the course and getting it done.

A little bit of really kind of— I think that the real success is understanding that it's a process and understanding that it's It's not something that's going to immediately pay dividends. But if you find a way to continually rationalize it, hone in on what you're after, and, and keep— stay true to that.

Yeah, that's the hard part. Yeah, that's the hard part. It's like staying true to what you really want when everything could be pulling you in other directions, right? Like, and then you're not following those paths because they are there.

Yeah, they're just simply there. And it's, you know, in my case, you know, it's I mean, it's been a difficult situation at work and, well, this is my path out. I got an out. I got an out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it could be hard not to take that. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. So what would you want to tell people who were in the situation that past you was in?

Oof. Boy.

Imagine someone like sitting at their desk frustrated, working way overtime.

Right.

Being like, I got to get out of here.

Yeah, not in a good environment. Yeah, yeah, I would say as hard as it is, realize that you have a lot more to offer than you think. Yeah, it's probably not enough to hear someone say that to you, but it is true. Yeah. And if you're like, and if it's getting in the way of you being able to kind of set up a way or a strategy or a process to move on. Uh, that's kind of where I was gonna say like a coach could help you figure that out. Um, yeah, you're in many ways your own worst enemy when you're stuck in those types of situations.

Yeah, because you can't see beyond where you are.

Yeah, you need someone who's just got this outside perspective who can kind of tell you and Yeah, I talked to my wife and I talked to friends and all of those things, and they're going to tell you things and you kind of you want to hear it from them, but you don't really believe them. Yeah, I don't know how else to say it.

Yeah, it's kind of like someone who's really there to just tell you the truth. That's all I'm here

for. Yeah, that's what you need.

Yeah, it's like why are you working 12 hours a day? It's

not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes no sense. Why would you want Yeah,

yeah. I'm interested in

that.

And, and having like, being someone like yourself who has these really high standards and who really wanted to, to create change and make these beautiful things happen where you were working and it just wasn't, and just knowing that you had to move on and having that, having that knowing inside you, right? And that was enough to kind of get you going to, to make that decision in the first place. 'Cause a lot of people don't even, you know, that they're like, yeah, maybe one day, or this is too secure, like whatever, right? That decision in the first place. But then also, um, And also just doing what it took to get there, right?

Yeah.

So even though you were doing it on your own for a while, and you were kind of going around, you were getting interviews?

Yeah, I was definitely just really not at random, but largely at random in some cases. It seems like an interesting thing to do, so I'd apply. And yeah, no, I was getting interviews in that regard. So that's where kind of that There was a bit of validation or, okay, so I do have value to add, but then it's just really kind of completing that perspective of like, so how do you get through this? This is a weird process we have. Like, I've hired people. Yeah. Right, in my past, I've interviewed people, I've participated in panel interviews, individual interviews, all of those things, and it's such a, just a bizarre way that we Kind of have to understand how people work. So as much as you could do to understand that perspective is gonna help you. And, you know, I think that's, for me, the coaching side of it really, really, really helped in that regard. It just helped to— And in many ways, right, I kind of talked about before, it's that mindset or these preconceived notions you have about what this process is and what you need to be saying. When you get into there.

And, you

know, and for me it was a bit of, you know, I'm— I was interviewing for director-level, senior manager-level positions. So it's like, you know, I felt like, well, this is a whole level I've never interviewed in before. So it's going to be even more so that I have to say the right things in the right ways with the right words. And none of that is true.

It's even more pressure, right? Yeah. And that's a really good point too, because for people listening, you're probably wanting to uplevel where you are right now. And you probably have a lot of those same thoughts, like a lot of like, oh, this is a big— this is more than what I'm doing, this is better than what I'm doing, like I have to be good. And those thoughts, that's what creates so much pressure on you. And then when you're feeling that pressure, you end up not doing what you want to be doing. You totally lose who you are, like you forget who you are.

Yes.

Yeah. And then there was one main shift I remember where we— you had talked about the value that you had added and the, the fact that you had Solve this inventory problem or something, and you ended up saving like millions of dollars and you were like, wow, okay, like I do deserve to be like in this position and paid more. And like, this is actually a good deal they're getting. Tell us about how that shifted for you.

It was, it's one of those things that was a very concrete example that for whatever reason, probably because of what I, of what I perceived them to want to know, that I didn't bring it in for some reason. But I think you started, you just walked me down that path and it came out. I'm like, why haven't I ever said that before? Yeah. Like, honestly, I think I was just so caught up in my own thinking about what I needed to say instead of just really sharing the facts as to what I've done.

Exactly.

But what it did do is it really gave a lot more confidence that even if I didn't bring that fact in, It just kind of just you remembering

that.

Yeah, me remembering the fact that I've done that just added confidence that when I say to people, I've effectively managed inventory to within certain levels, you know, da da da da da for a positive like you know financial whatever. It just I could say it and it was just with a full faith and confidence that I've done it.

Yes, exactly.

And if I needed to get into a specific story about it, I could easily go there if they wanted to.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's something that like. You have to believe and have that knowing that you're like, yeah, and I could do this. Like, you have the— you're like, yeah, my brain can solve these problems. I know I can do this. Like, it's— I say to people, I can tell you what to say, I can give you the perfect script, but I can't give you the self-confidence you need.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

That's, that's what, what has to come from you. And that's where the, the shifts come in, where you're— where you look at it and you're like, oh yeah, I did do that, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So how would you describe coaching to someone who's never experienced it before and has no idea what it is?

Oh boy. Um, I think for me in sort of crossing the threshold, if you will, that I needed a coach or I thought coaching seemed like a good idea, I, I think there's a certain amount of stigma that goes with that decision because, and truthfully, as a professional with some success It seems as if you've got that stuff figured out.

Or you should have it, right?

You should have it figured out. So I'm not operating like a professional that I think I am if I need that, right?

Yeah.

Which is actually like, if you stop and like read every successful CEO's journey, they probably have been coached from now till kingdom come about how to make sure that they're doing the right thing in that role. So it's sort of this weird— there was a bit of a weird paradigm there that I had to Had to cross. Yeah.

And what was it that helped you cross it? Like, what made you decide, oh yeah, that's what I need?

Failure. I suck at this. I don't— I'm going in these interviews and I feel like thoroughly— like, crazy to say, right? But I just felt like ill-prepared. Um, I felt like I was— there was something missing. I didn't feel confident. Um,

yeah,

uh, there were— I wasn't sort of think— I could tell I wasn't jiving It wasn't these conversations— conversations weren't happening. It was really just question, answer, question, answer. Yeah,

yeah. And when we look at the facts of what you've done, it's like it doesn't match up with the interview experience that you're having.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm just thinking about some of the jobs that have come and gone through that process, and I was like, those are things I could have easily done, right? And looking back now, those are jobs like, in some cases that I interviewed for, I probably Wouldn't want. Um, so, yeah. Um,

yeah, going back to the discerning of like knowing what you want, not having to do that. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

And I also wanted to ask you about like a little bit about now and like the, like how you, you've got this new job. It's very exciting. It's what you wanted. Check the boxes. How do you, uh, perceive your life's gonna be different now?

Great question. Um, how do I perceive? So I could tell you this, I have no sort of expectations that life's gonna— life will be better. I'm doing this because every— all the research I've done around it is leading me to believe that this is going to be the right next step, right, for many reasons. However, there's minefields in every job you walk into, so it will be just a different set of problems. Yeah. And I get that, right? The idea is—

You just have better quality problems now at a higher level.

Correct. It's still going to be problems, but there's probably going to be, from what I could tell, the support's going to be there to get through it, right? We— you're in a different position where these are the types of problems that are— I'm supposed to find those things and we're supposed to bring them up and we're going to resolve them as a team in a setting. So it's a little bit of a different perspective, I think. And I think through this process and even some of the coaching, there's a— there was one thing that really I remember we worked on, and, and you're— the way you described, um, maybe even like approaching conflict or approaching different situations now.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you use the word, uh, keeping curiosity to understand why a conflict exists, or that curiosity to understand that perspective that's creating the conflict.

Yeah, yeah.

That has resounded, like, it's just resonated with me so well. And I think that's, for me, honestly, from the coaching perspective, I've even applied it, you know, in my last couple months at work and really tried to use that to, to stay constructive and positive in situations where you have these types of things. And I think that's just really set me up, I think, for Go-forward approach to how I'm going to solve problems. Totally. Yeah. So

yeah, totally. And I, uh, and I wanted to share too, when you brought that up, about how you used it in the interview too, because a lot of people have interview experiences where they meet someone and they're like, oh, this person is weird, they seem off, I feel like they're attacking me, like, or they're, you know, they're not making any facial expressions. It's like getting curious about the person's perspective, their point of view, and then being able to see that differently. Um, do you remember that?

I do. I specifically remember about that. It wasn't the job that I ended up getting, but it was a different one that was far along the process in initial interviews. It was kind of like a reach out and feel type of call at first, and it felt like it was, you know, the person on the other end was all over the map. Like, whoa, man, they're just— this is craziness. It felt like—

I don't get this person. They're weird. What are they like? I don't know if I want to work with them, right?

Yeah, it's just strange. And then I had sort of more of a formal sit-down, half-hour to 45-minute conversation. It was like, okay, keeping that perspective open, staying curious about what they were up against, and maybe why they're acting the way that you could see. Okay, I see what's going on. It's that certain circumstances around that position and that person's job at the time were leading into that kind of, you know, what seemed like a disconnected series of statements when I was Talk about originally. Now, okay, I see what's going on.

And you were able to get curious about it to figure out what it was, right? Because I remember you said you asked some questions and then you were able to—

Specifically, it ended up— it felt like in that part of the interview I was asking him more questions about what was going on than the other way around. And it led to discussions about, you know, some of the problems they had to solve and what they were up against.

So yeah, and then you kind of understood him better and then you weren't feeling so like—

Yeah, it got to be like, okay, no, I get it. And I this would be an organization I could work for, right? It kind of— it settled, it settled a lot of that, uh, yeah, that concern, I guess.

Yeah. And being able to use that in interviews, also on the job, just going to the curiosity piece and compassion, like, oh, they probably have a good reason for why they're being like that. Like, just giving people the best, the best benefit of the

doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Assuming they're intending the best is always a good, a good first move, right? Unless they prove otherwise, but it's always good.

Yeah, and there's probably some circumstances about the situation that I've been in at work that kind of led me to sort of, you know, the difficult part here when we talk about this, Natalie, is like, it just seems obvious that that's what we should do as good people.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's the first thing that goes out the door when you're confronted with 80 different things, 20 of them have conflicts, and, you know, everyone's upset and everyone's in a hurry, and it's just all that goes out the window, right? Yeah, you know, yeah. That's, I think, another You know, we talk about why coaching. I think that to me would like really help, um, kind of reset things a bit.

Yeah, and you totally took all those things and used them and applied them right away.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, you were able to like create those changes right away, which is awesome.

Yeah.

And so, um, where— what do you see? What else? Like, you kind of already answered the question about what you'll take from this moving forward.

Yeah.

Was there anything else you would take, like taking forward, moving into your next role? As far as viewpoints, perspectives, mindsets on how to approach it?

Good question. That's the big one. I'm trying to think of anything else kind of pops in.

Well, we've covered a lot, so no pressure on answering that one. You kind of already answered the question anyway. I was like, yeah. And like interpersonal skills are huge. Like that's gonna— like that one thing Yes. Will completely, like, carry you into, like, your next position, right? Being able to get curious with people, understand them, lead them. Yeah.

Yeah. The other part I'd say, just because the role that I did end up taking is not a— I'm not managing people and I don't have direct reports. So I'm managing process and a system, right? It opened my eyes to the fact that You know, there, there I have enough, uh, expertise in certain areas to drive the kind of salary that I was looking for that didn't require people management.

Yeah, that's another like limiting belief that you kind of had, right? It was like, oh, I need to, I need to manage people to be able to make this kind of salary, to have this kind of position. And it was, it turns out that wasn't

true. Not necessarily true, right? You know, it probably has to do with what industry you're in. A lot of, a lot of different factors go into that. And, and until you've understood what they are Don't, don't, you know, you jump to these conclusions, right? It seems very logical to you. But when you sit down and really, you know, you kind of all of that could get twisted pretty quick.

Yeah. And it reminded me of another limiting belief that you had about having to have done everything that your reports have done.

Yes.

You're like, oh, I haven't done that yet. So how am I?

And I was like, why?

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, why would you have had to have done it?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So, so yeah, and those are just things that we just don't know that we have, right? We just think it's fact. It's just like, oh yeah, I'm pointing at the sun, it's right there. It's like, yeah, that's a fact, I have to have that. So yeah, and that's kind of what I see coaching as too. It's like we're just poking holes in those things and just questioning, like, is that really true? Because that— Absolutely. Yeah, totally holds someone back. And yeah, so 2 last 2 questions. What do you want to advise people, or what do you want them to know who are on their journey right now, who are maybe like have been in it for a while or are scared to leave? Any words of wisdom for them?

It's never as bad as you think it is. Or there's, I guess the better way of putting it is you have a lot more value to offer than you think you do.

I think that's the key.

Yeah. And I think it's—

You have to see it.

Yeah, you have to see it. There's a certain amount of, you have to be able to basically Put into sort of tangible deliverables that you've done in the past or things you've done to drive your confidence to be able to speak to the value that it's done. Like you need, you need that, you need those facts behind what you're saying just to really elevate the discussion, to really kind of sell that you've done it. Right. I don't know how else to put it than that.

Yeah, no, that's really well said. Yeah, for sure. And then my last question was, what made you specifically sign up to work with me? Because there's lots of coaches out there. What was it that you heard, or what was it that you kind of resonated with?

Yeah, so to tell the truth, it was a lot of it was the podcast, um, hearing people with, with, you know, it's kind of weird for me to have gone through listening to the podcast and now be on it. It's just weird.

I know, it's so awesome. Full circle moment.

Yeah, it is. But I'll tell you I'll tell you, early on, so I've, you know, my resume I thought was a disaster, obviously, because I'm coming from this place of I add no value to anybody. So I needed help with a resume.

That could actually influence the resume.

Yeah. So I decided I needed help with a resume. So I contacted someone else, they helped me with the resume. And they talked to me about coaching. And I, it, the approach and the way Not all coaches are the same, I think, is what I'd say.

Mm-hmm.

And the fact that I had this— I didn't fit. I don't think it was going to be a good fit with that coach. So I kind of said, I'll just leave it aside for now. And then I kind of started listening to the podcast. And I honestly, for me and Natalie, it was your demeanor. You don't— what's the word I'm looking for? You don't use a lot of big technical terms. That, you know, business buzzwords or like ways of talking about situations. You just really plain English talk about, you know, the process and what's in it. And that to me was refreshing. I really like that. I think of, you know, I don't like to talk with big words and big thoughts. I just want to break it down simply. I want to understand things at a very basic level.

Totally. Yeah.

And I think your approach and hearing you talk with people that have had success, it just resonated.

And thank you for saying that. It's really good feedback for me because I ask myself very often, like, how can I make this more simple and more clear for people? Because if you can get it in these plain terms, then you can go forward.

Yeah. And then you have this tendency to use that, the broken up relationship of the past to kind of like sell it. It's just like, oh my God, that makes so much sense. To reframe it into a

Into how it can serve you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably experienced, or maybe not, but yeah, it kind of like lands.

Yeah, I love, I love doing that too. It's kind of like the past is the past, we can't change it, so we might as well tell the story in a way that helps versus hinders. Yeah, because a lot of people are using the past as evidence to why they can't succeed in the future, and the truth is the past has nothing to do with your future.

Yeah, yeah. I always think that's a credit to you and just your approach. So, it just, I don't know. Well, thank you. Thank

you. So, yeah, and that's to everybody listening to the podcast. It's kind of like, like Rick said, it's like you need to resonate with the person's approach, right? And if you feel like you do, then the only thing stopping you would be your own belief in yourself to meet the other halfway. So, thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Those are all my questions.

Oh, boy.

Any final words you want to leave?

Final words? It's a marathon, not a sprint. Definitely, it's been at least— it was probably like from the day I decided to move on to the day I took an offer, it was 10 months. I thought it was—

But from the time you started working with me to the time you got the ultimate offer was 4 months?

4. Yeah, correct. Yeah.

And the timeline is not really important, I don't think, because I mean, yeah, it's like you had 10 months, but like you were kind of not really sure what you were doing for the first time, for the first 6 months, right?

Yes.

So it's like you can— and, and I've had people who succeed really fast and some people who it takes them a little bit longer, but the point is, at the end of the day, you have achieved this thing that now you get to benefit from for the rest of your life now.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I would tell you, like, I felt like I wasted 6 months. Like, in all honesty, if I just had taken the plunge and started working with you much earlier on, I think this would have been just a quicker transition.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you found me at the right time because that's what happened. But I do hear, I do hear a lot of people say that. They're like, I wish that I'd met you sooner. And I like, I wish I'd met my coaches sooner too. But we met when we met. And I was just thinking like, Like, a good thought to have is you achieved a lot already without having any coaching. So with coaching, it just kind of elevates you because you were already successful, right?

Yeah, it's a good accelerator,

right? It, it collapses the timeline. Yeah, yeah, that's what the point of it is. Yeah,

yeah,

awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on. It's been so great. I really think people are going to get tons of value from this, and I'm going to get a lot of really great feedback. So thanks again for sharing, and I will talk to you soon.

Yeah, no, thank you, Natalie. And everybody listening, just stay positive. You can do it.

Absolutely. Good words.