Convertkit and Sparkloop: Insights from Nathan Barry, Founder of Convertkit

Hey everyone, welcome to the Copyblogger Podcast. My name is Tim Stoddart. Thank you so much for joining me. This week we have a special guest, Nathan. It's great to finally meet you. I feel like I know you, but here we are at CEX at the conference, sitting down for a chat. I'm really looking forward to this. Thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me on. We've exchanged so many Twitter DMs, so many emails, all of that, and then we've got tons of mutual friends, and so it's fun to actually meet in person.

Yeah, likewise. All right, I'm really excited for this chat. I have to start off, with just an expression of gratitude. Other than probably WordPress, I'd say ConvertKit has been the most beneficial and useful tool that I've had in my life for my companies, for my businesses. I really wouldn't be where I am doing the things I'm doing without ConvertKit. So I generally appreciate it. It's great to meet you and I'm very grateful for the work that you and your team are doing. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. That means a ton. As a creator, the thing that you want most is just people to use and enjoy the things that you make. And so seeing it in the wild, seeing businesses like Copyblogger run on it, seeing, you know, hearing the stories is just great.

All right, let's jump right into this thing. You got a lot going on. You know, like I was trying to prepare for this conversation. I was like, where do I even start with it? So we'll just start with the Creator Network. I know that you've been working on this thing for a while. It's not quite out into the public yet, but for those that have heard about it or maybe seen the beta version and getting the notifications, what are you building? Like what is this creator network and how's it gonna help people?

Yeah, so the first thing is, you know, everything you do as a creator is better when you bring in other creators, right? Like all the advice you hear if you're a YouTuber, like YouTube is telling you do, like collaborations, you know, that's the best way to grow your channel. We're going to conferences, you know, we're meeting up, doing podcasts, doing all this stuff of just like meeting and working with other creators. But what's interesting is nothing in email is built around those collaborations. Like email is very much a single-player experience, you know, and if you think about it. And so the Creator Network is really, okay, how do we systematize that? How do we build software that fosters connections and, makes these partnerships and collaborations easy to do. And so the first thing that we're rolling out with it is recommendations. And so that is when someone subscribes, like for example, if someone subscribes to my email list, then a modal will come up afterwards and say, hey, thanks so much for subscribing. Why don't you also check out these 3 other creators that I recommend? And so if we imagine like a little group, if we have our mastermind group where we're all giving each other advice, helping, you know, build audiences, then we can all recommend each other. And so then when someone subscribes to you, it's going to come up and you're gonna be recommending me and two other people. And so what happens is you end up just driving all of this growth for other creators. And so I got a great testimonial from Ryan Holiday the other day, 'cause he's in it with The Daily Stoic. And I just texted him, I was like, hey, how's this going? And he just said like, the creator network is driving more subscribers for Daily Stoic than every other traffic source combined.

Jeez.

And so, and Daily Stoic is a big email newsletter in business.

Yeah.

You know, so I was—

People heard of him.

Yeah. Like I was blown away by that. And it's just because of, like if you think of the math, you know, if you're partnering with people at a similar size to you, then it's gonna drive really huge results. So it's still very new at the time that we're recording it. I think the alpha was out for a couple weeks and then now we're, you know, 3, 4 weeks into the beta. And so there's only about 500, 600 creators in it and we're rolling out another, you know, 200 to 300 creators a week that we're giving access to it and just really keeping it like a tight curated network with people who are really invested. And, you know, over time it'll roll out to the whole ConvertKit customer base.

Why do you think that's been that email has always For the last 10 years, experienced content marketers, creators always say the same thing, right? Email, email, build your email list. Everything should drive to email. But now that you mention it, I guess I never even had that realization that email has remained so isolated and secular and let's call it autonomous to the person. Like, why is it that we've never used email as a way to collaborate with each other? And as opposed to that, it's been just a one-on-one networking tool and just a one-on-one relationship. How did that realization come to you? What was the lightbulb moment that you had?

Well, I think the first thing is that the market is so fragmented. And so even if you look, like if you were to talk to someone who knows the software as a service industry, they talk a lot about a lot of industries like maybe CRM functionality or, you know, I don't know what else, but a bunch of things in the startup ecosystem are like winner take all or winner take most.

Yeah.

Where you get like a Salesforce that just completely dominates the space. And yes, there's other smaller players, but they're, you know, I don't know, Salesforce might maybe is 70% market share or something like that. Email, Mailchimp is the biggest player in the space. They're a billion a year in revenue. They sold Intuit for $12 billion. They're only like 35% market share. You know, if you think about ConvertKit versus Mailchimp, ConvertKit's 35, $35 million a year in revenue. So not 35% of Mailchimp size, it's 3.5%. And so we're tiny in the space, but there's tons of other players. You know, if you think about Campaign Monitor and ActiveCampaign and Constant Contact's been around forever. So it's a very fragmented space. And so these network-type features only work once you have scale. Because if I'm on ConvertKit and you're on Mailchimp, well, that can't work. And so we were only able to build this functionality at ConvertKit as we've achieved scale. We're just about to pass 50,000 paying customers on ConvertKit. Congrats. And that gives us, because it's all, thank you, because it's all in a focused niche, right? We're just creators. Whereas other email tools are all of small business or something else. We can build these tools just for creators. And so I think that's the reason that it's happening now is that we're finally reaching scale with ConvertKit. And this is just the first thing that we have planned. There's a lot of other, people are like, wait, why are you calling it the Creator Network rather than recommendations or something else? And it's like, we're just, we're in search of ideas of how does your entire mastermind group being on ConvertKit make it better for everyone else in your mastermind group, you know? So, like, examples of things that we're playing with is let me sell and share email templates and designs. You know, let me share automations. So if I design something, you're like, wow, that's an amazing, or I build out an automation for my business, you're like, that's amazing, I should implement that. And you're like, oh yeah, no problem, here's the link. And you just import it into your account, right? That's live now. Another thing that we want to do is like, what if you could share segments across accounts? Like, what if I'm gonna do a promotion for Copyblogger and I'm like, hey, will you share a segment with me? I don't need to see who's in it, but will you share a segment with me of everyone who's currently a paying member?

Yeah.

You know, and I will exclude that segment from my promotions. No exporting CSVs and importing any of that nonsense. Like, do it in real time. In the same way that we let you share a segment with Facebook custom audiences, for, you know, to customize your retargeting so you're not, you know, pitching people with Facebook ads who have already purchased your product. And so it's the Creator Network is really how do we make it so that we're building tools for creators to connect? And this is just step one.

I get it totally. And I get the analogy where, I mean, I hate to be so buzzwordy, but when you create that network effect, it makes it much easier to pass data back and forth from accounts, so to speak. But so, okay, like you, I hear something like that and my brain starts racing. Like, oh, we could do this, we could do that, you could do, add this functionality, share these segments of the sequences with somebody else, all the cross-promotion. But when you see this vision of what you're building, like what is the tool or the functionality that you're most excited about? Like what is it that really gets you going?

Yeah, I think that, um, oh man, there's so many. But the Creator Network, the— so our mission as a company is to help creators earn a living.

Yeah.

And so the biggest thing in that is the two parts. How do you grow a bigger audience? Mm-hmm. And how do you earn more per subscriber? That might be helping somebody go from like zero per subscriber to a dollar. Or it might be helping someone go from, you know, $3 per subscriber to $5 or more as they add, you know, more products that they're selling or improve their automations or their copywriting or whatever else. And so the functionality that I'm excited about is really in Creator Network because the free recommendations are helping you grow so much faster. And then on the paid side, what you're able to do, we have a partnership with a company called SparkLoop. And they have what they call their partner network, which is those recommendations that you can pay or get paid for. And so that enables a really successful creator, like, um, Sahil Bloom is a great example of this. He's got a giant email list, uh, he sells sponsorships through his newsletter through the ConvertKit sponsor network, and then he takes 100% of the money he makes from that and invests it in paid subscribers through SparkLoop in order to grow faster, which makes his newsletter bigger, which means he can charge more for sponsorships, which means he's making more money. And so this flywheel keeps going. And I think that's really exciting of the creators who can grow faster and spend money to do that. And then other creators could say, hey, this is something that I could turn on right now. I don't have to go sell my own sponsorship deals or grow to a certain size I could just start recommending other creators and getting paid for that. And I might only be making $10 a day or $500 a month, but that can compound. You can be earning money even before you've made a product to sell.

I'm glad you brought that up. I've talked about SparkLoop many times to my personal audience on Tim Styles, but also on Copyblogger. I think I have to say that I'm an investor in it. So full disclosure there. But I thought it was so insightful, both from Louis' standpoint and from your standpoint, to realize that there's a vast majority of people that just like creating content. They just like to write. They don't necessarily want to get involved with the hassle of going back and forth with sponsorships and, and bartering deals and figure out invoicing and filling out W-9s and all that stuff. Whereas what it sounds like this is creating is an opportunity for people simply to monetize however subtly it can or can't be because there's a bunch of people making a ton of money with Sparkloop too. Right. But it's just an easy way for people to do the work that they love and get some kind of benefit with it by recommending other people. And it's such a, what do I call it? It's such a win-win where like everybody wins in this situation. I think that's super insightful.

Yeah, and it's, what I like is that it works at any scale.

Yeah.

And so, you know, there's things like that we've done with the ConvertKit sponsor network where people are like, oh, you have to have at least 10,000 subscribers to be a part of it. And it's like, well, yeah, if we're selling brand deals, right, it requires a certain size and scale and we have ideas of how to improve that. But with this, it's like you could be just getting started and it might be like that you're growing your list and you're— you've only got 20 subscribers and you're trying to get to 100 subscribers by the end of the month. Well, those 80 that you're gonna get over that time period, maybe like they're signing up for some of your paid recommendations. And so you might be making like, hey, I just got started and I've made $100 in my first month as a creator. And I think what's so exciting to me is that so many people see a creator that inspires them or a bunch, and then they're like, okay, I'm gonna do it. Yeah, I'm gonna dive in. And people tell you like, You know, you gotta invest for the long term, it's gonna take time. And so you're like, okay. And you have all this early excitement and momentum, and then at some point that's gonna stall out. You know, one of your kids is going to get a cold and, you know, school's gonna be rough or whatever. Like something's gonna happen and you're gonna lose that momentum. And before you know it, you'll have broken your writing streak or whatever else. And it just feels like, oh, this dream of, you know, where I'm at now to being a creator who's making money, even $1,000 a month feels so far off. And what I love about the partner network is it can bring it to this point where you could be making money early on, right? So you think that creator who's like starting to get discouraged and they're like, hey, you made $50 and like, wait, I'm making money on this already. And they do the math. Okay, if I could double my growth rate, then I could, you know, I could get to these higher numbers. And so I love the idea of early creators feeling encouraged by that momentum and by real money showing up and then continuing their journey and that being the thing that gets them through the dip. And then, you know, years from now they're actually like the next Sahil Bloom or whoever else.

I'm so glad that you brought that up. And I don't want to make this about me, but I have a really relatable story there. I think it was 12 years ago I started my first blog. It was on Blogspot, and I was at a point in my life where I was just trying to grow, and I was reading The Secret, right? That book that everybody reads when they're in a down spot in their life. And there was a section in The Secret that talked about envisioning money coming in the mail. If bills are in the mail and it's overwhelming you, next time you open up your mailbox, just envision that there's a check in there. And it sounds ridiculous, right? But accidentally, I didn't even know I did it, on Blogspot, I checked the little toggle that says like monetize. And so somehow there were Google Ads on the blog that I was writing every day. And I wasn't telling anybody about it. I was just simply writing. I was writing ridiculous stuff. I remember I wrote something like how to make the perfect peanut butter and jelly sandwich. You know, like I was fulfilling the creative need inside of myself. And one day I open up the mailbox and there's a $28 check from Google AdSense. And I still have it because it sounds, It sounds like, I don't wanna demean it, like money is money, it's just $28, but that check represented to me like, oh my God, like this actually does work, I can do something here. And so like facilitating that jumpstart, facilitating that, whoa, I made $80 this month by writing this newsletter that I love to write. That's not something that you should just brush under, like that's real emotional drive. It definitely was for me and I know it's gonna be for other people.

One thing, a question I love to ask people, and you'll see me ask this from time to time on Twitter just 'cause I enjoy the responses so much, is just how did you make your first dollar online?

Yeah.

Because, and for some people it's like, oh, I got this freelance client or something else, but like, or it's their first product. A lot of people have pretty wild stories and you're like, wait, really? That's how? You know? But there's this moment where someone is like, wait, I made this money. Maybe it's $5, maybe it's $28, and you realize, there's not a direct connection between the time that I put in and the money that I made. Usually at first that math goes poorly.

Yeah, it's way lopsided.

You know, okay, I spent 100 hours and I made $25. Let's not do the, you know, the revenue per hour, you know, the hourly wage on that. But something clicks in there where you're like, oh, and now this can scale, this can, like this is different. It's different than me taking a salary or going to a job. And so I think that the more that you can create that experience for people, like it's wild to think that if you're growing your audience and you're doing that anyway, we could literally have a box that you check, like monetize, you know, in the example that you had, and people would be like, I am now making money. I have just inserted a, without having to go make a product or do all these other things, I've inserted a way to make money in that. And then the other thing from a sponsor perspective, right, if I have a business where I know what my revenue per subscriber is, I know, hey, if I put an engaged subscriber through this funnel, then I'm going to be able to, you know, have this conversion rate to this product, Some number are gonna upsell, and so I know that I could pay $3 per subscriber and within 45 days I will have made that back, you know, or made $5 per subscriber. Well then I'm just looking for more places that I can get new subscribers. And the first place that marketers have always looked is all of the big tech platforms, right? That's why Facebook and Google are the biggest, you know, some of the biggest companies in the world is because they run really good advertising marketplaces. And so when I think about it as a creator, I'm like, all right, I'm taking this money. Would I rather like pay it to Mark Zuckerberg or would I rather pay it to Tim Stoddart? You know, like how do I keep this money where I'm like, hey, I'm actually encouraging creators coming along and funding their businesses rather than just like, contributing to Facebook hiring another 1,000 employees or whatever that they're doing.

Let me pivot a little bit. Did you ever imagine that you would get to the point now where ConvertKit is what it is when you first started it? I've heard your story and I've heard the, I don't know what to call it, like the founder story. I know that, I shouldn't say I know, I assume that this wasn't something that you, you were fulfilling your own need basically when you started it. Did you think that you'd be here?

I had two goals. First, I wanted to get back into building software. And second, you know, 'cause I'm a software person and I got to the point, I think a lot of creators maybe do at some point where they realize they're spending more time teaching a skill than they are actually being a practitioner of it. I heard Derek Sivers talk on Tim Ferriss's podcast about identity and how identity changes over time and you have to keep earning it. 'Cause he had said something like, "Oh, I'm an entrepreneur." And he was like, "Wait, I sold CD Baby in," whatever that was, "2007, 2008," you know, or something like that. He's like, "Okay, I haven't done a company in 15 years. I don't know that I'm an entrepreneur anymore," you know? And there's other identities that he identified. He's like, "I'm still an author and writer, and I'm a developer," right? And those were things that he was actively practicing. And for me, there was one part of it where I was like, "Oh, I'm a software guy, I build software." And I realized I spent, I spent a bunch of time talking about, like teaching how to build software and I wasn't doing it myself. So I wanted that part of it. And then I was trying to get to $5,000 a month in monthly recurring revenue because that was my expenses. And I thought I could do so much as a creator with these fairly lumpy product launch and the down, and it would just feel so good if I had that recurring baseline. About the point that I hit that $5,000, I was thinking like, Maybe we get this at $20,000 a month, you know? Like, then I could be making a really solid salary and I could probably have like a full-time employee and a freelancer helping out on some other things. And so that was the early stage. And then what's funny is by the time, I mean, by the time we finally got to $10,000 a month, it was like another 45 days before we were at $20,000 and then another 45 days it was $50,000 and then You know, it was crazy from there. So it was interesting. But to answer your question, no, I did not think it would be a 75-person company and all of this.

How does all of that weight sit with you? You're like a humble, pretty laid-back guy. You don't strike me as the kind of guy that has plans of world domination, you know? And now you're sitting here doing a podcast with me talking about all these new features on your company. That's gotta be challenging, to say the least. I mean, is that, has this been part of your vision, or do you still wake up every day just excited to work on ConvertKit as always?

Yeah, I'm definitely waking up just excited to work on ConvertKit. I do think, you asked about the weight, and there's a lot to that. You know, you're responsible for a lot of people.

Totally.

Not just the 75 employees. You know, little things like you could do everything right, run a profitable business, have plenty of cash on hand like we do, you know, not take outside funding. And we were lucky in this case, but I have a lot of friends that when Silicon Valley Bank melted down, couldn't make payroll because they either banked with SVB or they used a payroll provider that banked with SVB. And so there's definitely, like, you have so much responsibility to other people. There's a lot of stress that comes with that. And in that case, like, we had our money split between Wells Fargo and Chase and Mercury, and so we were totally fine. But that was, that was like luck. That wasn't, you know, people, people were like, "Oh, that was really smart." I'm like, "Well, I mean, kind of." Kind of.

Like, isn't that the best when people say you did something smart when it was just blind luck?

It's like Mercury had a great, savings rate, you know? And so I moved some money over there and, you know, that diversified it a little bit. And then, so there's that side of it, the responsibility to the team, but then I also think the responsibility to customers. Like, we had an issue in ConvertKit earlier this week where it's something simple, just our reporting on one of our dashboard graphs started to struggle, right? And so we're gonna have, you know, implementing a bug fix, and you know, but there's a lot of people who are like, hey, did I not get subscribers today? It's like, no, no, no, you did, it's just that graph is currently having an issue. But realizing like, oh, like on one hand we celebrate, hey, we're about to cross 50,000 paying customers. On the other hand, it's like, well, there's 50,000 people that are relying on ConvertKit for their income. And so, like that's a high-pressure thing, and there's definitely stress with that.

For sure. It's the part that nobody tells you when it's like, oh, I wanna be an entrepreneur. It's like, oh, I love those nights when you're just staring at the ceiling thinking about all the little tiny problems that like don't actually matter that much. But when you put 'em all together, it's just, it's a lot of weight, man. I respect the fact that you have been able to continuously put more on your plate, provide more resources for people and like, keep it together. I really mean that. I respect it.

Yeah, lots of therapy and coaching.

Yeah, right? Well, you've always been pretty open with all that stuff, so I appreciate it. All right, one last pivot. Do you ever think that with all of the new features that you guys are putting together that you're going to stray too far away from the core of what ConvertKit is? That's definitely something that I've seen other companies do. Again, I see you as a guy that remains pretty centered and like you know exactly what you're focusing on, but that's something that we all struggle with in terms of our businesses, even just creator businesses. You have this message, you have what brought you to the dance, but then you have other ideas and you wanna implement stuff. How are you staying humble in that regard?

Yeah, well, I think as a business, whether it's as a software company or as a creator, you can go wide or you can go deep.

Yeah.

And, you know, people talk about like, maybe a T-shape, right? There's a lot of things that you choose to go wide in and then a few areas that you very deliberately go deep in. I've watched a lot of software companies really dilute their products by saying, how can we check all of these boxes?

Moz is always the one that comes to mind.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And where you're not good at any of those things, but sure, you can bolt that on, and when someone's making a buying decision, they're like, oh, you have memberships too? Okay, great, I'll do that. I think Infusionsoft is an example for anyone who's been around in the marketing space for a long time.

Yeah.

And you do a lot of things not very well. And so, like for ConvertKit, We think a lot about anytime we're increasing product footprint. It's one thing when you're like, hey, we're building more features within this, but anytime that we're actually building something net new, two examples would be ConvertKit Commerce, right? That was a big thing. Before it was like, you can sell products through anything you want. We integrate with everybody, we'll pull in the data and all of that. And in 2020, we pivoted and said, okay, now we're going to build our own as well. We'll still be open with everybody, but like, people want to be able to sell products and paid newsletters and coaching and whatever else. You can do that right inside ConvertKit. But the moment you do that, the moment you increase that footprint, you now have to build that up to parity. That means that you've got to build payouts in tons of countries, international tax support, right? There's so many things.

Not to mention the customer service reps that need to know a whole nother skill set.

But within that, we've made a very deliberate decision. We only do digital products because as soon as you go physical products, people are like, what, it's a physical product, add an address field. That's super simple. No, because then you want shipping labels, shipping calculations and labels. You need integrations with 3PLs. You need, you know, all of this stuff. We might do that at some point, but we're not going to make a simple decision to add an address field that is going to accidentally create this whole footprint. So an example of the reverse would be like our email editor. That's something— any idea that you want to go from your head to the mind of one of your subscribers has to go through the editing and writing experience. And so that's something that we're investing really, really heavily in and making that great. So we've rewritten it from scratch and just keep iterating on it. Like, the first rewrite of it was not quite perfect. Like, it looked really good and you could do all kinds of stuff with it, and just the experience wasn't quite right. Yeah, like little things like Command+Z, Command+Shift+Z didn't work quite the way I wanted it to, you know, copying and pasting content. Wasn't quite there. And so we really, on one hand you're like, look, it's 95% there. Nobody cares about the last 5%. I care about the last 5%.

I get that.

You know, and so it's like, okay, how do we like really dive in? Because this is so important to everything that we do. It's not like, oh, you know, it's a text editor, whatever. It's like, no, no, every idea has to come through this part of the interface. And so like the new version of it that we're releasing in another week or two, lets you do fancy layout blocks and all that, but it also lets you copy and paste them across emails. If you're like, hey, I want this layout block, 3 of them, highlight, Command+C, Command+V 3 times, and there you go. And it's those little things about the feeling of the application that we obsess about just as much. And so we're very hesitant. You'll see us increase product footprint once every 3 years maybe. The Creator Network is another huge increase in product footprint, but we haven't done, made a footprint increase for 3 years. Whereas other companies you're gonna see be like, oh sure, we'll bolt that on, or yeah, that's no problem to build. 'Cause you're right, it's no problem to build, and it's absolutely a pain to maintain and make, like, go deep with.

I think the text editor is a really great example of that, and I like to ask questions on this that people just relate to. The ideas that go through all of our heads. And that conundrum is certainly something that I've struggled with and other people who have approached me have struggled with. Like, I have this niche, I have this thing that I'm good at, I wanna branch out. And although it's a little bit esoteric, I think that the text editor is like kind of a great example because that's something that you already have owned that you're improving. Like there's always a way to make it a little bit better without going a little bit wider. And I could personally attest as, I'm somebody that kicked and moaned when Gutenberg was released. It's like, how could they do this to me? How could they change this? And now I'm like—

I was in the same boat. Yeah.

And now I look at it, I'm like, why was I so mad? Gutenberg is great. Like, this is so much easier. And with the text editor through ConvertKit, it's the same thing, just being able to go block by block and put snippets in. But the improvement on the core functionality of the service that you're providing people, I think is the lesson. There's always that 1% improvement at a time really, really stacks up over the course of years.

When I think as a content creator, like what are the things that you've created where you're like, oh, on one hand you're like, oh, I've said that before.

Yeah.

And you're like, you move on. And it's like, really? The version of that that you wrote in 4 hours and you proofread once and published, like that's the best version of it? So I always respect people like Jason Fried from Basecamp where if you read his stuff and you watch his conference talks and all that, on one hand you could say like, oh, I've seen him speak 5 times, I don't, like I've seen everything that he has to say, but I watch him like refine his message and say the same thing with a different story and keep getting better and better and just, So like, that's the same idea for content as what we're doing for software of like, yeah, your first version isn't very good, but if you refine that message for years, then you're gonna get to the point where it's gonna be brand new to someone and they're gonna be like, oh, I get that. Whereas maybe the first version of your blog post or essay or the first YouTube video on that topic, people are like, I don't know, it didn't make sense to me, and I moved right along. And so by refining and continuing to go deep, you have the opportunity to impact so many more people with high quality.

I agree totally. That's one of the most valuable lessons I got from, well, from Ducker actually, who I still haven't necessarily thanked him for that, but the message was somebody is always seeing what you write or what you create for the first time. And so it's hard to remember that when you think, oh, I've been saying the same thing over and over again, but somebody is still seeing it for the first time. Someone's getting the experience of your product for the first time. And so I think that's, That's a great lesson. Man, it was great sitting here with you. I really, really appreciate— Thank you for doing this. Yeah, I appreciate your time. I appreciate getting your insight. What can people expect for people listening to this who are thinking to themselves, they see that beta dropdown on ConvertKit, like, when do I get in? When do I get in? What's your top of the head layout for it that people can expect to see it?

Yeah, so the first thing is basically anyone who has filled out their creator profile and knows who they're gonna recommend. If you meet those requirements, we can get you in pretty much right away. So reach out to our team and we can make that happen. We'll probably open it up to the general public late June, early July, so coming pretty soon.

Yeah, that is soon.

We're recording this in May. That's coming soon, and then we'll be building in native paid recommendations and all of that with the SparkLoop integration. And we're just gonna keep iterating. So if you have ideas of ConvertKit on multiplayer mode and you're like, oh, I'm doing this partnership with someone else and it'd be amazing if I could, send me an email, just Nathan@ConvertKit. There's so many fun ideas, and if we find out from people what's most impactful, then we'll prioritize those. And just keep building 'cause there's so much that we can build.

Yeah, keep building. Great way to end it. All right, man, thank you so much. Thank you for everybody for listening to our podcast. We really appreciate you. Next week I'll be back with Ethan for our regular show. Subscribe, leave us a message. You can reach out to me on Twitter @TimStodds and Nathan Barry.

Yep, @NathanBarry.

All right, all right guys, thank you so much. Talk to you next week.

Thank you.