Forget Courses, Sell This in 2026 To Make 7 Figures | Jasmine Star | 147

This model, Nathan, will knock the air out of your freaking lungs.

Jasmine Star made $255,000 in 5 days on her first course.

That $197 course ended up generating over 7 figures.

And then she built a membership to over 10,000 people.

Oh my gosh, like we just had like 34% growth in a matter of 5 days.

But like many, she watched as the model gradually stopped working.

8% of people finish a course. Average amount of time people in a membership is less than 3 months.

When Jasmine started building around client results, Everything changed.

People want results. They don't want more information. The way we actually get the quick results, the way we see people making money in 30 days, it is literally—

I love this.

People want more time. They want more money, influence, power.

Everyone defaults to the exact same model.

Yes. That is what we teach. Result in a timeframe, given support, period, the end.

I love that.

You send us 5 questions in a day and you get 5 responses back in a day. No, we move fast.

Coaching and accountability. People are not talking about this enough.

Are we spilling the tea right now? I mean, are we like making waves, Nathan? Let's go.

If you want an offer that produces results, watch this episode to see how she built it.

And I'm going to tell you the 4 steps of the $10K Freedom Formula. Step 1.

I think this episode is the single highest value per minute it's ever been on my show.

You know I like to win, Nathan. I know you do. Give me another thing to win at.

Jasmine, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Okay, so if I were to put you in front of a room of 25 creators who are, I don't know, making half a million dollars a year or more, and I was like, okay, You need to teach a workshop about your favorite thing. Go. What would the topic be?

Making money from a digital offer. Like, I love it. It's like I eat, breathe this stuff. I just think that there's nothing right now in the market and hasn't preceded it for many years that has the profitability, the functionality, and the scalability of a digital offer, especially if you're having a small team or no team at all. I've seen solopreneurs crush it, 7-figure businesses, solopreneur.

Okay. So when you say a digital offer, like what are a few of the examples?

Okay, well we could talk about traditional, like we talk old school and then what I think is the future. Okay. Are we really starting here, Nathan? Are we hitting the ground running?

Oh yeah, we're diving right in.

Oh man. Okay, so this is the tea and this is one girl's perspective, but this is a girl who's been in the game for well over a decade. Yep. And so we've seen a transition. And so when I entered the game roughly around 2016, um, I had entered into the market. I was a professional photographer traveling the world, trading hours for dollars.

Yep. Time for money.

Now, yes, but it was, it was, it was great. I had created a 7-figure revenue stream. And I had, I was selling digital products at the time for like $399, $499 online for photographers to build the business of their business. And so I kind of had a, a knack for photography, a knack for marketing, but blending those two kind of created like a force. So I was able to get all inbound. We were charging multiple 6 figures for complete collections for what we were shooting. So it was, there was that revenue stream, there was an online digital revenue stream. And then I had this idea, I didn't even know where it came from. And here I thought I was like, oh, I'm gonna create this thing that's like an online class and people are going to buy it. Little did I realize that there were things like course platforms, things called webinars, there were ads. I had no clue. And so, um, so I start off with a course for $197 and I had never created a course. I had never had a landing page. I, I didn't, I didn't know anything. Like Nathan, I had, I had a newsletter list, but it was on my blog and it was just like an HTML code that I had just put

there. Just like the RSS feed.

Yeah. Just sign up. Just send that and publish it. Of course. Of course. But we had grown it all organically and I was blogging, so I was writing writing about my photography. And lucky for me, SEO was kind of like my jam. Yeah. So, that helped a lot. And so, then my blog post would point to an online store. But here again, I was charging anywhere from like $4.99 to $19.99. These were low-ticket items that people were buying, but I would wake up and then I would see money and I was like, wow, this is crazy. Then I launched a course for $197 and in 5 days I made $255,000. Nathan.

A different life.

A different, I mean, it was like, you know, Charlie Bucket, the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory. I was just like, oh my God, Papa Joe. Like our lives just changed. It was crazy. Went on to launch that course again 2 more times that year. So that $197 course ended up generating over 7 figures. Hmm. In 1 year. So I had my photography online store. I was still doing services for clients and editors and art directors, and I had this revenue stream. And to me, by that point in time, I was a photographer like 13 years, kind of rose to where I wanted to go. And then I realized I wanna go all in on this vehicle. And so started creating a multitude of courses, each turning into their own seven-figure revenue streams. And what I heard on the back of all the courses was people had wished that it was some sort of continuation. And a lot of what I was teaching was marketing and branding. And marketing at the time, specifically on social media, it was changing so fast that even though I was creating an evergreen course, people wanted to know the nuances. And at the time, it was just like, well, what is the thing called stories? And then what is Instagram Live? And I just felt like kind of. To create this new course every year, it just felt like very heavy. And so people were asking, "We want real up-to-date things," and they were asking for a membership. And I was like, "Never, never gonna do membership. Nope, nope, nope." And then all of a sudden, I thought to myself, "Okay, if we were to create a membership and 500 people joined that MRR, okay, that might be that might be something we could sink our teeth into." So when I say we, my husband and I, business partners. High school sweethearts. I married up. This guy is great. Nobody understands why he's married to me. Like everybody always questions, like bro, what happened? He's like, I like he somehow he's in. He's in. He's got beer goggles. And so we we stay up and we know we don't know any code. We don't know anything we're doing. And I don't know you. You know dude. There was a company called Infusionsoft. Yep. Dun dun dun. We built a membership off Infusionsoft.

Yeah.

Just on the backend applying tags because the software at the time. This is where I'm going to geek out. The software at the time was granting memberships all in access. So if you joined. you got access to everything that was with that, whatever was in that archive. And I had the school of belief, well, when you join this membership, you get what you get that month and then months thereafter. You don't get access to an immediate archive. Exactly. So the only way that we were able to like work around this ghetto was Infusionsoft. So every month they would get applied a tag that reflected in their accessibility. It was Frankensteined with WordPress and Infusionsoft. I'm telling you, brother, it was a nightmare. But, but it was, we took what we had and then we made it work.

So there's an important thing in there 'cause everyone has done the standard way, which is you get, you know, you pay, I don't know, $50 a month, right?

Yeah.

And you get access to the entire back catalog and everything coming forward. And then memberships have this massive problem. Yeah. That the churn is really, really high.

Yes.

Everyone says like, sees software and says, oh, I want recurring revenue.

Yes.

And all of that. So let me do it with content. And then they find that the churn is not, It's not 5% per month, it's 15%. Oh yeah. You know, and all that. So, but what you're saying is like, no, no, no, you paid, in my made-up example, $50, you get this $50 worth of content, you don't get the back catalog.

Correct. And at the time, this was 2017. Now a lot has changed. So when we go back to what was available, we took what was available and then Frankensteined a way that we could reverse engineer protecting that content. And I say protecting, and that probably what is probably myopic when I speak about it now, but at the time I was just like, We were charging $29 a month in 2017. And I thought that that $29 is worth more than the value of a back catalog.

Right.

And so then what we did was we allowed people to go back and purchase individual, we called them issues, individual issues. Mm-hmm. So immediately first month of the membership, we started realizing that when we first launched, we had a back catalog of 3 and then that month, and people were coming in and not just buying the $29 for that monthly membership, they went back and bought the back catalog and then a month later were charged another $29. So we saw LTV in months 1, 2, and 3 exceed what traditional Traditionally would be months 1, 2, and 3 because of back catalog.

Right. Okay. Mm-hmm. I have, I've been in this business a long time. Uh-huh. I have not heard that particular angle on it, but I like it because it changes the perceived value as well. Right? Because so many people get access to the back catalog, binge it, and then end up paying for 3 more months maybe.

Well, right now I think the average is less than 3.

It's probably, yeah.

And so, so me, okay, so we, we did that. Yeah. And I, I thought it was great except for the fact that what we were creating on the inside of this membership was marketing content, teaching people how to create their marketing for small businesses. So creators, small businesses, people who didn't necessarily have an entire marketing team. So what we were doing is we were teaching the, the strategies, we were giving how-tos, we were giving examples, we were giving templates and resources. Okay. All of this came in a particular issue. And what I realized was people were learning how and getting their marketing, but we weren't integrated. And so they would have to go from our membership, download what they needed, modify in their own, and they were creating their own systems on the backend for their, um, marketing. Okay. And that was a lot of friction. And so then what we decided to do in 2021, when the world was basically a dumpster fire, I know not a single line of code. And I'm like, okay, we have to build our own tech stack.

Right?

I need a CTO. I need a team. I was very much like Ruka Salt. I want a new palumpa. I want a SaaS company and I want it now. No idea. Like no idea what I was doing. Holy, like somebody just, if I can go back to that girl, I would just pat her head. I would hug her and be like, girl, you step away from the tequila. We're not doing this right now. But we did. And so, uh, started our own tech company and it was great. We integrate with every social platform that exists today. It is called Social Curator and we started leveraging AI in 2021. So we started like very early and I was like, oh my God. So we were having what we called caption templates and think about this as Mad Libs. And so let's say you, the creator, would be able to go in and fill in the blanks and they were like reverse engineered for engagement on social media. And I, and I would just dreamt, I was like, if, if just one day we were able to have profiles for each of our customers and it would auto-populate in our templates, man, golly gee willikers, if that ever existed. And so then 2021 comes around and the tech team is really in learning about AI. We start leveraging it and I'm like, oh my God, solution, here we go to the moon all the way. And then by 2022 I'm like, they're gonna eat our lunch. Hmm. Like it was clear we could not outpace Sam, Sam Altman. Yeah. You know, it was just not gonna happen. Me against OpenAI.

Him and his billions.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So you see the writing on the wall. Right. And you're like, what is happening to the industry and where are we going? So we'll pause. In 2020, we saw a massive shift happen in the creator space. Right. And so what happened was people were at home more, they had more money. On average, the US household income in 2020 had $15,000 more. Yeah. So we saw social media increase by 40% during 2020. People on average had $15,000 per household. And we saw online shopping increase at almost a pace of 48%. Right.

And you, I mean, you saw people traveling a lot less, a lot of discretionary spending.

Of course.

Didn't get spent. Of course. 'Cause there wasn't a good way to do it. And then you have stimulus checks coming in.

Exactly.

All of those things.

So it was perfect for people who had an online business, not a business online.

Right.

An online business. And so what you saw was massive growth spikes. So we just saw like compounding growth. So at the time, Social Curator, we had 6,500 members. We had just started. And we opened cart for 5 days and we got close to 10,000 people in 5. And so we were like, oh my gosh, like we just had like 34% growth in a matter of 5 days. And so we just saw this compounding growth over that year. And then that inspired a lot of people to go through, they bought courses and then they think I'm a course creator, which hey, maybe you are, but did you count the cost of actual, um, deployment, fulfillment, customer service? Right. So 2021, 2022, you see a boomerang. People who launched creative endeavors realized that that's a totally different game and a totally different skillset. And many people are just like, I'm out. Right. So it left a lot of people burned. So 2023, 2024, there's a trust recession. People are trying to sell digital things online and people are like a little skeptical. So it puts us in this phase of '25, '26, what is the future? So when you're like, when you talk about a digital resource, when you talk about online business, what are you talking about? And I was like, well, the old way, Courses, memberships, one-on-one. I think that there is a place for them, but I think that in order to be competitive and to go against the grain, when everybody's zigging, you zag. I really do believe what I've now coined as the hybrid offer is that there is a piece that teaches somebody a result. Mm-hmm. Period, the end. Nobody wants more information and no one's really gonna buy information. That's just the truth. So what you're selling is how you get a particular result in a specific timeframe. timeframe.

Okay.

And so what we see on average is about 8% of people finish a course and about, uh, average amount of time people in a membership is less than 3 months. So what would somebody pay for a result in a certain amount of time? And so that is what we, that is what we teach. Result in a timeframe, given support, period, the end. So the more people who get a result, the more people who refer you. And then when you make another offer that guarantees or promises a result in a given timeframe, now we have trust built. So now we're rebuilding trust when there was a trust recession. So we're now combining a skillset, a result, and a transformation for our customer.

Okay.

Yeah.

I love this and I love your passion behind it. Where, like, what's an example of an offer in the old format and then what it would look like rebuilt in this way?

Okay, so a course. I help you lose weight. Let's get a little bit more granular. I help women lose weight. And then let's get even more granular. I help women in their 40s lose weight. So, we would seek courses in that way. But what would happen was the nature is like, I teach everything about a woman in their 40s. So, hormones and eating and exercise and all these other things. So, people are like, this is a complete, like, drinking from a fire hydrant.

And

so, people just don't do it.

And so, there's no result, no behavior change.

There's no result, there's no behavior change, and then there's no further buying. They're not gonna buy again from a person where they didn't fulfill on the first thing. Right. So a hybrid offer now would be hyper-specific around a specific result. So I help women in perimenopause lose 10 pounds and sleep through the night in 90 days. So now— Very specific. Very specific. So people want results, they don't want more information, and information is commoditized. So the more that you can get a transformation, a result, and then you support that result, because we know what happens is what I believe in a hybrid offer is the support is what guarantees the result. Because a woman in her 40s in perimenopause can lose 10 pounds. But then what happens? There's vacation, life changes, you go like a ton of things can happen. So as long as you help her get that result and keep it, she becomes a fan, she turns into a fanatic, and she's the person who's helped endorsing and growing your business thereafter.

Okay. Yeah, that, that makes perfect sense. Because something that I think about a lot is what actually creates results is usually simple, but not easy. If you think about weight loss or building a business or any fitness habit or anything else. When you talk to someone, I remember talking to someone who I found out through the conversation, he was like, yeah, I used to weigh like 350 pounds. And I was like shocked, 'cause I was like, you don't look like you ever, you know, I was like, what did you do? And he is like, well, I, you know, tracked what I ate and I exercised consistently. And I'm like, and? And he's like, that's it. That's it. That's the whole, you know, and he said this line of like, it's simple, but it's not easy. And so what I hear you doing is, There's an endless amount of information that you could learn. And you're saying, I'm just gonna distill it down to this one very specific offer. Yep. Then this very specific outcome for a specific type of person. And it's taking the niche down advice and making it so much more specific. 'Cause most people do it in like, here's who we're targeting. We're actually doing it in terms of, here's how we're serving them. And then just saying, I'm gonna come alongside you and make sure That we achieve the outcome.

Absolutely. And what, what ends up happening is that there's an extension of brand. So a brand isn't your name, it's not a logo, it's not your colors, it's not your website. A brand is what you make somebody feel. And so what happens is when you have an evergreen piece of content that teaches somebody how to get a result, inevitably somebody will come across a pitfall, perceived or real. Right. And so when you show up and answer their question or support them or just say, hey, I see you, What you made a person feel was seen, and a seen person will go to war for you. And that dynamic really changes. And I do believe that with this, and I fully embrace, I love AI, I truly do. But when we see such a massive embracing of it, it's gonna be super important to anchor as a point of differentiation a human element. Right. Because that's gonna become more and more rich, more valuable.

Yeah, I believe that very deeply. Where, okay, so we think about the structure of the offer. Mm-hmm. How would you price the old offer and how would you price the new offer? Like if you were coaching a client going through this or another creator.

We have a framework. So with our methodology, we go towards the value, what we think that they would pay for it. And the reason why we're doing this, okay, so Elon Musk sells a Cybertruck, but just sells the idea of it. And thousands of people are paying him $1,000 just to get on the list. And so we see Jeff Bezos, he decides to have his friends and family buy a book on the internet. So what they're doing is they're selling, they're pre-selling the idea. So my philosophy is what I've seen a lot of creators do is come up with, this is the thing, this is the idea, this is what people want. And then they put it out there and it's, you know, like 1 or 2% of their audience will buy it. And they're like, what happened? It must be me. No, no, no. We're just actually not really understanding who is it for? What do they value? And what are they inclined to pay? And so part of the methodology is not to come in with a pre-done idea. It's to come in, who do you wanna serve? And what result do you think you can get? And then we have people interview their, what we think are their dream clients, have their dream clients actually say without a pitch, what I think, what they would actually pay for a transformation. And we're leveraging 2 or 3 different transformations at one time. So we're, we're really, we're really trying to build a business, not this is what I think it's worth. Because oftentimes what I see specifically for women is that they overdeliver and then they underprice.

Yes.

And so what we wanna do is really go in and just like test the market, see what the market will pay. And then I'm telling you like 8 outta 10 times people are like, I can never charge that. I can never charge that. And then we put it out in a seed launch and then people pay. And that is like a That's the mindbreaker, that somebody would pay $500, $1,000 for this when they thought that they would be selling something for $87. That's the big thing. But we understand the market and we understand what willing people are paying, not for a course, not for more information, but literally a result.

Yeah. So, when you make that shift from information to outcomes, the willingness to pay is entirely different. Absolutely. Because I always think in terms of, like in business, of conversion rates, right? And where's the friction in the steps? And it's like, You know, in a funnel, it's if we get this many people in, then we work our way down. And I think a buyer thinks in those ways where you're almost discounting like, okay, if I would pay $10,000, if I could snap a finger and have this outcome.

Yes.

Well, now you have to think about like the time value of money. So you have to, oh, it's 90 days later. So it's okay, it's worth less to me. I can't have it instantly. And then it's like, well, what's the likelihood that that information I'm buying is actually the information that's going to get me there.

Yep.

Okay. And so we're discounting further and further.

Yes.

And so if I would pay $10,000 for the outcome, by the time I'm all the way back at like, is your information going to be the right information? Am I going to stick to it and all this? And then like, we're kind of back at $97, you know?

Yeah.

But if I was very, very confident that you would create that outcome for me, you know, then I'm like, okay, $5,000, $2,000, you know, like whatever it is, I still have to put in the work. But it's a totally different way of pricing it.

Absolutely. And one of the things that we realized, and so this is on the back of having courses that range from what we started off at $147 and then we worked our way upmarket. So a DIY course for $3,000. And what we heard again from the courses, even if, even if, so we had 2 tiers, you can buy the DIY course or for somewhere between 4 or 6 weeks, I would go live and answer questions for the first 4 or 6 weeks of the program. And so Even with that, people were saying, I just wish I had somebody over my shoulder.

They wanted another level beyond that.

100%. And then what I realized was like, that's not really gonna work. This was the same story that I told myself when it comes to building a membership was, that's not me, that's not going to work. And then I heard it so many times, it was like a big slap to the face. And so then instead of saying, that's not gonna work, I started asking, well, how could that work? What would have to be true?

That is my favorite question in the entire world. Is it? What would have to be true? I ask that question all the time. Everybody both loves it and rolls their eyes.

Everybody. So I, I do too. When it's my own, like when I ask myself this question, it's like I, I have that same reaction. And then when we kind of just distilled what has to be true, mm-hmm, when we laid it out, I looked at it and I, I asked myself, is that what you want to solve? Is that because it's not for everybody? Like, right. Systematizing a singular approach, training people on that approach, courting and cultivating and recruiting really talented business coaches to come in and use their experience. Yes. But what we're teaching is This.

Right.

And this is the system. So, a lot of times people are like, well, business is a bit of art and science. It is, but there's a lot of science here. Right. There's a lot of science that can get us like an outcome.

When the more specific you get on the outcome, the more it moves from art to science.

Absolutely.

Like we said, hey, we need to build a successful business that does half a million dollars a year in revenue. There's 1,000 ways to do it. Yes. But then if you compress the timeline.

Yes.

And then you can, you know, the more constraints you put on it, the more it, It moves into science in a way that you're like, great, then do steps A, B, and C in order.

Absolutely. And a lot of times the people we're working with, they're like, I don't want to do webinars. Oh, okay, great. I don't have an endless budget for ads or any money. So we started understanding who the demographic was and then reverse engineering, well, what needs to be true for them for this system to work? And then we're very forthcoming. Like, these are the steps you have to take. That might not be aligned for you. There's literally 1,200 ways to get from California to New York. This is our one way. Right. We feel really good with this one way and we see people get results. If that's not aligned with you, no problem, but this is the one way. So we needed coaches that would really step into that and, and believe it. Right. And so that was one of the things that we stepped on. So now we have business coaches using our framework to help business owners create a digital offer in 90 days. Mm-hmm. So it's, I call it a friendly pressure cooker. It's like you want a digital offer that's going to make money. We see people making money in the first 30 days. It's just how bad do you want it?

I love that. Okay, so to get really specific then, take us through the details of your offer, right? Because it's always, you take all the things that you've learned and then you apply it in your own business. And so who do you, like, who's the ideal client? How do you price it? What's the exact positioning and the promise?

Yeah, so we were taking all of the information that we were getting and we heard it from the SaaS side is like, Jasmine, do you also provide social media managers? So people wanted the solution. They also wanted the implementation. And I didn't want to build an agency. That's not at all what I had wanted. And so then what we heard on the back of courses, well, if I just had somebody looking over my shoulder, if I just knew that it was, that I was doing it right. And so we found that our greatest clients are coming in 2 forms. The creator who has an audience but really doesn't have the business acumen and doesn't really know where to begin and gets like easily overwhelmed. Like all the things, where do I start? Yep. And then a service provider. So, we see a lot of success from like one person in particular. She was a doula and she's based in Arizona and she has 4 clinics and she's like, I can't keep on multiplying in this way. And there was a lot of doulas who wanted her training. There was a lot of moms who wanted to sit under her tutelage. She was really good at what she did. So, she created a digital offer and then created rapidly growing 6-figure revenue stream off a digital side of her rather dominant in-person business. Mm-hmm. So, we see wedding planners, we see photographers, we see service providers do something really different and provide a service for those in their industry. And that's become a big game changer. So creators with large audiences without knowing how to monetize and service providers. And then also people who have the dream. We see people coming in and it's like, so for instance, there's a woman who worked at Kroger management, worked all the way up. She has 2 kids and she's just like, I really believe, and I'm not gonna talk about specifically what her offer was. It's not out into the world yet. But she was so saying, I can't stop thinking about it. And to me, I look at that and I'm like, you have the grit. Yeah. You have the grit. So we can help you build the business and the offer and you're gonna have to work on building the audience. But like we can do that. But largely it's the creator and then the service provider. provider that wants to get into digital.

Okay. And so then what's the structure that you're taking them through? And I guess the support that you're providing that. Yeah. And is it a 90-day timeline?

It is a 90-day timeline.

Okay.

It's a 90-day timeline. And so that's what it is. It's a result in a specific timeframe. That is the hybrid offer. Our result is a system and your streamlined business to consistent $10K months. And that's the floor. That's not the ceiling. Yeah. But what, and it's crazy 'cause I had hundreds of conversations with people and I kept on asking like, what's the magic number? And I heard it again and again. I heard 2 things, financial freedom, financial freedom. And so, I heard it so many times and I'm like, wait a minute, what are people's definition of financial freedom? Right. And I was like, I wave a magic wand and my magic just happens right now. What, like, what, what does it look like? And people were like, if I could just make $10,000 a month. And my mind was blown because I kept on hearing again and again and again. So, what we did in titling the offer was just reverse engineer what they told us, consistent $10K. Like, that's what they wanted. But then a crazier thing happened is when we made that the title, when I was sitting, so I did sales calls at the beginning because I'm just going to get in the mud. I'm going to figure out where the biggest obstacles are. I'm going to like really go in and hone in on the script of what we were going to be telling people. And they, what I heard again and again, well, that's too good to be true. So we heard they, everybody, like hundreds, hundreds of conversations I had, this was what they wanted. And then we put it out and, well, that's just too good to be true. So, what I've started realizing is the minute I started asking people, but what would change? And Nathan, $4,000 a month. That will, and I am talking about again and again. Now, I would say 95% of the people that are interested in this offer are women.

Yep.

So, that plays into it. But when I deeply understood that women who still maybe still have their jobs, but would like an additional $4,000, or they are stay-at-home moms who want to work while their kids are at school, but they want the flexibility of it. Right. $4,000, Nathan, shifts everything in their reality and that they get to do it from home. And so, I started realizing, okay, that there was something like deeply embedded here. And so, we created the 4K Freedom Formula. We, me and my husband. So, I said, how do you explain this really simple way of walking people through the process? And I'm gonna tell you the 4 steps of the 4K, of the 10K Freedom Formula, but you're gonna think, Jasmine, That's stupid, that everybody knows that. And so what I've done is I've collapsed a decade of experience into something formulaic. So what I'm about to tell you is not going to blow your mind. You're going to be like, okay, and? So step 1 is to clarify your message and your niche. Like, this is groundwork.

Yep.

With so much noise, the way that you cut through the noise is not by being louder, but it's by being very specific. So we're going to hone in on who that person is and we're going to speak a message to their pain point. Like we want the nail through the foot type of pain. Somebody who's just like, just anything, get me out of this pain. That's the kind of messaging that we want. Or give me this solution. Sell me the dream life of my foot without the pain.

Right.

And then part 2 is to create marketing just for that person. Because now the algorithm has been so specific. It's so good at showing people just what you're talking about, not necessarily to your followers, much to the chagrin of a lot of people. So, if you are speaking to a specific person about a specific thing, the algorithm will actually show it. Maybe not to a lot of people, but to a lot of people who could potentially put money in your pocket. Mm-hmm. And then once you have marketing that's really effective speaking to somebody who wants a solution, then what we do is we move towards engagement. And so a lot of times people struggle initially, like just to set up a funnel. What do I say? All of the tech involved, that will come. But how about we learn how to have a conversation? Right. And so we move them into Instagram DMs, have a conversation, realize what this person wants, and don't hesitate to make an offer. And then you can get them into funnels and then you can get them offers. But in the beginning it's like, how do we build trust? Now it's less with a megaphone and more with a handshake. And that's what we're seeing. So that main trust building component is gonna be into DMs and then you're gonna get them into the business. And step 4 of the 4 Key Freedom Formula is to build systems at scale. Like it's not rocket science, it's simple. It's not easy.

Yeah. And I think that's something that I see over and over again in businesses at scale. is that they usually achieve that scale through simplifying and reducing. And everyone's like, you know, Nathan or Jasmine, like, give me the secret to break through whatever number or whatever else. And, you know, it's this hard thing where like, there isn't one. Like, there's, you know, it's the things that you already know, or that you've heard repeated over and over again, but actually executed really well.

Yep.

And actually, like, a level of, focus and discipline that most people aren't used to. And because they do things like they listen to podcasts like this and then they get a new idea and they run off and go chase the shiny object and they do something, you know, they're like, oh, someone was just on saying that LinkedIn is the next thing or that, you know, whatever else, TikTok Shop is the next thing. And then they jump from thing to thing. And instead you're like, look, here's the 4 things that matter. Nail each one of them, do it in sequence. And I promise you it'll work.

And then do it again and again and again. And then continue doing it when it doesn't work and continue to do it when there's crickets. Because every iteration is actually illuminating the next step. And so it almost happens seamlessly, but it only rewards those who don't stop walking. And many people will get the system and then they just stop. And if anything, if I've learned anything in my career, it's like success only goes to those who don't stop walking. Simple, not easy.

Yeah. I mean, the first rule of compounding is to not interrupt it prematurely. And almost everyone interrupts it prematurely. That's a, is that a Buffett or a Munger quote?

I don't know, both of them. We love them.

Yeah. Okay, so in that specific offer, what does the support look like? 'Cause I think a lot of creators listening are gonna totally understand the clarify the offer, all of that. Okay, great. I now have a promise and outcome. Oh, 90 days, that's smart. You know, all of that. And I know how to film the videos and I know how to write the emails, but like, what do you actually provide on ongoing support?

It's as much as what a client wants. So there was the old way of coaching, which what we saw a lot of, which would be you'd meet with your coach by 30 minutes once a week. But what we started seeing was that people became inactive about a day or two after meeting with the coach, or they would say, okay, well, I'm gonna hold off a little bit and come back. So what we create is asynchronous coaching. So you are going to be submitting a question to your coach and your coach gets back to you that day with a video response with your worksheet. So they're like, let's walk through this. Now I've noticed this in your niche. Let's take this back to your beta testers. Let's see what they're saying with this. When are you gonna get this done? And then respond Thursday so that your coach is like, hey Nathan, it's Thursday. Tell me about the responses. So they become almost like a, a project manager staying to the system, keeping you accountable. Because what we heard was not a matter of, I don't know what to do. We've laid everything out.

Right.

It is somebody telling you what to do, when to do it and how to do it. And oftentimes you get, a lot of times people are uncomfortable creating content in a way that they haven't before, AKA More than once every three weeks, whenever you feel like it.

Right.

So in order for an online offer to work, you have to create content. It's just conversations to let people know what it is you do. And yet we stop ourselves for fear of judgment, fear of success, fear of failure, whatever it might be. So then you have a coach who's saying, "Well, okay, what we put in is what we get out." So do you want to put in one post this week? Are you planning on putting in four? What's your number? And then they keep you to the four. There's like, okay, we've noticed that there was two posts out. You gotta post on Saturday or we're gonna miss the goal. Do I have your commitment for that? And really it is project management, support, and accountability.

Yeah, and I think being that mirror to reflect back of like, you told me when you signed up that you wanted this outcome in 90 days. We reverse engineered all the steps. And just saying like, so what commitment are you gonna make? And it's like, oh, well, I'm gonna, I'll have this done by Thursday. And so then Wednesday being like, okay, so, Where is it?

You know, you and I are fans of Sam Parr.

Sam's the best.

And on his podcast, My First Million, he often talks about, and now Sam's fit. Okay, the guy's like built, like his muscles have muscles, right? Yeah. It's like his 6-pack has a 14-pack. And so, and he posts often about this and he says that he subscribes to a daily check-in from like a food coach.

Yeah, My Body Tutor, I think is the company.

Yes, yeah, okay, okay. I heard this years ago. And I'm driving and I hear this and I was like, why does Sam need an accountability buddy? That's crazy. And what I realized was you don't need the accountability, but to have somebody over your shoulder. And what he would say, he would take a picture of everything he ate and he would send it to his coach. Like, I'm keeping accountable to you. And I thought that was bat trash crazy. And what I realized is that it is so effective. Mm-hmm. And I kind of ate my own dog food and I said, okay, well this is, I'm creating an offer for something that I don't necessarily need. For myself when it comes to business, but this is what I heard: the market's never wrong. And then at the top of 2026, I decided to invest in a rather very high-ticket offer for a nutrition and a fitness coach. And when I told my family what I had invested, they're like, "Oh my, qué loca! Oh my God, you're crazy! Like this is like what are you doing?" And what I realized was my coach is watching every caloric value I input, asking me to upload workout videos. Asking me to keep track. So, it's like a part-time job, but I have never gotten this result in the entirety of my life. And it feels like I've been dieting for as long as I can remember. So, to get a result seeds more desire to keep the result. And that's what paying for, somebody having eyes on your stated outcome. And then that person holds you accountable.

What I like about this is that everyone defaults to the call as a way to provide

You see

it. Yeah.

You see it.

And they either do it in a one-on-one call, like I am your coach, you're probably paying me thousands of dollars a month for this to be, or say at least $1,000 a month for it to be worth it for the time investment and everything else. Or we're doing it in a group coaching format.

Right.

And that's like, I feel like that's optimizing for the information being shared again. Again. Whereas you went straight to it and you're like, no, it's the accountability. Like you already have the information, you already have the playbook.

Yeah.

It's the accountability that matters. And we don't need a 30-minute or a 90-minute Zoom call to get the accountability. You actually need those 30 to 90 minutes to do the thing.

100%. 100%. And that's what we realized. And I think that there was a lot, there is a lot of pushback because people come in and they have this preconceived notion of what coaching is. Well, no, if I don't get my 30-minute every week, and I'm like, okay, no problem. This is not for you. The way we actually get the quick results, the way we see people making money in 30 days is not by a weekly check-in. It is literally, you send us 5 questions in a day and you get 5 responses back in a day. No, we move fast.

Okay, so I'm thinking about, well, what else is important in this asynchronous coaching and accountability? Because people are not talking about this enough. Like, I imagine there's a bunch of— Are

we spilling the tea right now? I mean, are we like making waves, Nathan? Let's go.

Well, because everyone defaults to the exact same models. Yes. And they don't realize—

Did you do this model, Nathan? Will knock the air out of your fricking lungs. I am surprised. I should probably be wearing veneers. Like I'm probably walking around with an iron lung after being punched in the back so many times from this business model. But yeah, we can talk about that too. It's hard, dude. It is hard. It's a people business.

Yeah. Okay, so what goes into the accountability behind the scenes? Like as an operator at scale, like how do you pull that off for not just 10 clients or 50 clients, but doing it for so

many? Okay, so this is where I will say, I am nothing without the team.

Yeah.

The team are system-driven. This, you have to have like operators on operators for this level of success and guaranteed outcomes. So, we have an ROI guarantee. If you do the work and we have our coaches keeping you accountable, if you do the work and in 90 days do not make back what you invested in the program, we're gonna work with you another 90 days. Like we know it works, we've just seen it work. And so, very few people will do that, but I'm just like, we don't mess around.

Okay, there's an important thing in your ROI guarantee. I hear people say that, and I think there's a big trap that they run into where they say, if you don't achieve this outcome in the promised time period, we'll give you your money back. And I think that's a terrible thing to do.

I do too.

Because it puts you at odds.

Yes.

Where now you're trying to help the client achieve the outcome. Yes. And they're sort of like, I mean, we'll see.

Yes.

You know, but what, so you had the ROI guarantee.

Yeah.

And I like cringed slightly. And then you said what it was. And it was the, we'll work with you in another 90 days. And it's like, oh no, we're just aligned for the outcome.

Yeah. We're aligned to the outcome.

And so it's like, I think most people would miss that difference and it's a very, very important difference.

Thank you for pointing it out. Thank you for pointing it out. But I will say probably, you know, a few times a week I will hear people say, okay, well I want the ROI guarantee to be that when I make that money, then I'll buy the course. So I would like to get access to the hybrid offer. I would like to get access to your program. Yep. Your method. And when I make the money, I'll make it back. I was like, heck no. I'm like, heck no, I believe in me, babe. I don't know if you're gonna show up and do the work. Like, I will. I don't know about you. So, um, but yes. And so the operators on operators. And so the key thing here is, yes, I sit as CEO and yes, we still have Social Curator and yes, there are still DIY courses. But my main focus, it's like I am focusing on one thing and that is a consistent $10K. It is a new business model. It's forcing me to develop muscles I never thought I would even possess. And so I'm thankful. There is a future version of me who's looking back at me and saying, Baby girl, good job. Like, we don't know how you're getting out of bed every morning, but God bless. Like, you'll hang, girl. You'll hang. So, we have a director, and then we have a head of customer success. And underneath the customer success, we have lead support, and then we have a team of coaches. Right now, we have 7.

Okay.

We like to keep it really small. We want to make sure that the people that we're working with understand our core values, are fully signed up, and understand they're all experienced coaches. That's going to be like a major thing. You have to have street credibility. You have to do something on your own and/or coach other people to do it. Right. Here to our program. And so we have the coaching board. And so what I'm going through is we do all asynchronous communication in Slack. So I have purview of everything. I am reading every conversation. I am seeing every single client, whether or not I'm interjecting, that's neither here nor there. I need to see the trends. I need to make sure that any gaps are like fulfilled and I need to make sure how are we responding? What is that expectation? Where are we at? And so where I see myself in guiding that team is going in every 8 weeks, I'm having a coaching board meeting where I get to share a vision, what's on my heart, what's on my mind, what is our level of accountability? How are we serving these people? So, it's pure vision casting for that arm of the business because the operators in it are so fully dialed in and the coaches, it works so well because there are people who are made for coaching and maybe not so much made for like the drive of building their own book of clients. And so, this is like really satiating and fulfilling for them. And we've operationalized that they get to just be in their superpower.

Right.

Show up and serve, make sure they get it done. And then people, when they get the results, is really fulfilling for them. So, we have operationalized a part of their business that they didn't really actually want to do. They get to stand in their superpower. I cast vision. And then we have the arm that is marketing and we have the arm that is sales. So sales, marketing, and customer success.

Okay, so let's dive into the marketing side then.

Yeah.

As you bring in these, you know, these leads, people who are interested, what does the top of the funnel look like?

Well, okay, so this is a little bit crazy. So I told you that this offer has been around for 6 months. And in the beginning I wanted to see, I wanted to break my frame of what was possible. So I said, I said, can we just launch this thing on a DM funnel? Like, let me see. Right. Let me build a system. Let me bring my whole team.

You're putting a constraint on it to say— Absolutely. I used to sell in all these other ways. Yes. We're just gonna do this one method.

Absolutely. And then I set a goal in 2026 to add 4 different types of funnels. Like whether or not we're gonna hit it, I like it. I just like it. Come on, let's play big. Right? Let's play big. And I don't want just an average funnel. I want like the mack daddy Cadillac of funnels. Yeah. And I want 4 up and going. And I watch numbers and metrics like it's my job because it is. So this DM funnel was promising enough that we were getting cost per conversations for like $4. And then we were dropping in a VSL and we were watching click-through response rate when people were dropping off. And I kept on iterating on the VSL. And this was me still in that proof of concept phase. It's like, can we turn somebody from the internet with the right messaging into a high-ticket offer? Does that actually work? Mm-hmm. And so a bunch of constraints, quite bit of doubt, and then actually seeing that it works. And I'm like, huh. All right. January, we introduce a webinar funnel. Now that's the school I dwelt in. That's the world. So I tried a few different topics. I think we're still iterative. I have one solid one. And then I want to introduce more industry-specific style ones, kind of hone in on that messaging, create evergreen funnels and specific ad targeting because Andromeda is so phenomenal right now. Like it's so good. that yes, it might cost more for a CPL, but they're gonna be so much more qualified and more inclined buyers. So the more finite I get with, because the offer works, we know exactly who we're targeting. Right. But if I say service-based business, it's less likely to land than if I was like a chiropractor, a doula, a photographer. So that's gonna be like in the future. But we have is a DM funnel, a webinar funnel, and then we have a no-show funnel that only exists in email. Yeah. So if you sign up, you don't come, I'm sending a micro training. And so we're tagging every single one to say, where is this lead gen? Because on average, which nothing to brag about, it's like, I would, we're working on our show-up rate, but our average show-up rate is 24%. Not ideal, but that means that there's 76% of the people who signed up that are not getting access. I don't really believe in a replay. Most people don't watch it. I feel like it's a waste of time and then it just kind of like sits there. I wanna create something that's fast and expiring. So I said, I created a micro training. You could watch this micro-training. And if enough interest is sparked, they're either gonna go back to the webinar or they're gonna go straight to book a call. Depends on how hot that lead is. And so that's where we're at right now. And I do believe we're gonna be creating another funnel around the summertime. And so it's us like creating the system, testing the system, fortifying the system, starting super scrappy and just going. I mean, it is so scrappy right now, Nathan, and I feel like, Mm-hmm. The humility it takes to understand it It used to look one way and you used to have time. And what has changed is there's less time, more competition, more fake, more noise. How do you serve a specific person with a specific outcome in the quickest amount of time? And I have to say, that's gonna come at the cost of things being beautiful and branded. It's, can I get you something that changes your dang life? And it might be in a black and white PDF. Maybe, maybe.

What I respect so much is you getting to like the top of the game in the course community, like that whole space, and then constantly questioning and reinventing. And so many people get comfortable and then at some point they realize like, oh, why does what worked in 2020 not work today? Right? And it's like, well, a lot has changed. So you're constantly reinventing. But so I wanna go upstream one more notch from the webinar and DMs. Are you, is that mostly paid traffic to get people to that? Or is it your organic social posts?

It's a mix. It's a mix. And I know that, so what I wanted to do is to get proof of concept from a warm audience. But is that really proof of concept as much as it is like people know, like, and trust you, have been in the game for over a decade, and they're gonna be like, okay, I get it.

You throw an offer in front of them and they're like,

yes. Yeah. And so what we wanted to do was to start mixing it, but not at the cost of our profitability. Like we knew that warm was gonna be converting higher for less. And so we've been kind of in this like transition point now, like 6 months into it, venturing more and more into cold traffic. So yes, we're running ads, but we keep them as low as CPLs. I'm not trying to say like, I need a mega launch. I'm not on that timeline. I'm in the long game here. I would rather focus on getting the right message to the right person at the right cost than me trying to be like, I need 2,000 people to sign up right now.

Yeah. Okay. And then those webinars that you're running, are those real time?

Real time. I show my phone, you know, like people always doubt. I always start it with the same, today is June 27th. I'll hold it up. Yeah. And we don't send out the replay because we We just want it to be real and in time.

And is that, you're doing like one webinar a week? What's the cadence that you do?

Um, it'll change depending. Like, so for, you know, the month of May, because it was a holiday, we decided not to do one. So we'll, we'll do them like maybe 2 or 3 times a month.

Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I, I like the hold up the phone. It's basically like the, uh, the hostage proof of life. Like, hold on, this is the newspaper.

This is the newspaper, yes, exactly. I am the real person. Exactly, because, you know, there's like all these like tricks and people— but it's the Tresor session. So I find myself having to over-index and I'm okay with it. Right. Because gangsters are okay over-indexing. Like, I'll show you, I'll open my kimono, you'll see it all. Yeah. Like, you wanna play this way? Let's go. Mm-hmm.

Okay. So what else are you doing to over-index on trust?

Uh, I go, going live. Nothing. It's, it's unrivaled. It's unrivaled because everything now is edited for the 0.6-second attention span.

Yep.

Like every good editor will tell you to move the frame 0.6 seconds for a short-form vertical video. And so our brains are shifting. So when you are going live, when I'm going live on Instagram and then there's like a brain fart or somebody sneezes in the background, or if I bring somebody on camera with me and they're like in a bathrobe and you're like, oh my, oh my. And so when people get to see the real, literally unfiltered version of you, their trust in you just raises. This is unrivaled. So outside of in-person events, which are hard and expensive, going live is the The second best thing. And just bringing people on, talking to them, seeing them, reiterating their question to make them know that you saw them and you heard them and you're serving them, game changer.

Yeah, it's so interesting because as I've been taking social content a little more seriously, something that my team kept pointing out is that when I deliver to the camera—

Dude, same.

All of that— Same. They're like, Nathan, you're doing your speaking voice again.

Yeah, they call it my professor voice. Hi, welcome. I'm Nathan Kolden.

In today's episode.

Yes.

And so we started doing more where we'll just be sitting in a podcast studio. Thankfully, we have lots of podcast studios.

Yes, Kit, let's go.

And they'll just be like, ask questions. And sometimes I'll slip into it and they'll be like—

You did it.

You're doing it again. There's no cameras here. And I had one where I was talking about another podcast called TBPN that sold to OpenAI. And I was talking about that story. And I watched the clip back and I was like, this is bad. Like the retention, you know, like I'm like looking up, I'm like, you know, and that did like 50,000 views. And I was like, wait a second, how did that do really well? And they're like, because it was an interesting story and you came off as authentic.

Real.

It came off as real. And so it's so interesting of like changing when we think, okay, the bar's here, I've gotta show up in that way. And it's like, no, you just, you need to connect.

And if you can hold somebody's attention, so actually, here's the tea, here's stuff that the iterative process and like the iterative process and the ideation process. I often sit with my husband every morning. What we try to do at minimum is to get like about 21 minutes undisturbed before our daughter wakes up.

Okay.

So we make our coffee and we're like silently sitting in the living room. And one of the things that I had said is like, I see so much of live, real, long-form being a thing and then obviously cutting it into micro-content that serves in different ways. But like people going deep. And I'd always joked, I'd always joke growing up, I'm like, I belong on QVC. Like I can talk, like I can sell you that iced coffee from Blue Bottle. I will tell you about that bean roast. I will hold it up. I'll make sure that— Whatever it is. Whatever it is. Because I understand the power of connectivity with people. I'm a human. Like everything I do is rooted in sales psychology, like psychology of the brain. What gets somebody to buy? Literally a buy theory. by a vote, by ideology, by a religion. I'm so fascinated with this. And so I had said that I firmly believe that despite my best efforts in creating content, both a DSLR and an iPhone, and doing the pre-planned, not planned, off the cuff, I said, I think it would be unrivaled if I had a call-in show. And I do a call-in show and this is what I do. This is like the Latina version of Dave Ramsey. Yep. Maybe not so political on one end or the other, but it's like we're talking business. Like, this is what we do. And I was like, I kind of feel like that would be my jam. And he's like, well, then what's stopping you? And I was like, well, I like— it's a studio, it's who's gonna vet these callers, like, how does it look? And so then I made the commitment that I'm like, no, you're going back to always how you started. It's like you take what you have. And so I went back. So 3 years ago, I did this thing called Coffee and Conversations. Every Tuesday at 9:00 AM, I would get a French press, I would make coffee, and people would come in and ask questions. And I would do it for about 30 to 35 minutes. And it was so good. Why did I stop doing them? The pandemic, I became a mom. It just was a lot of things. I think going back to that, and I want to earn the right to make a strategic investment in maybe renting a studio or renting a producer or working along those. But until I do that, watch me just kind of slave away, Ed Sleigh, on Instagram Live, refining a skillset that I think sets me apart from other people. So what's the big takeaway? Not that Jasmine knows how to talk, it's what do you have? have in the palm of your hand? What skill set do you have? What makes you different? Different is better than best. And so whatever people have right now, to use that, position that in light of your offer. And so just getting super scrappy right now in all of those ways because we are really hedging. It is a new arm of the business. I'm gunning for profitability where traditionally a people-person business is less profitable. And I'm like, well, how do we break the frame of that? What kind of restrictions do we have to have? Constraints do we have to have? Yeah.

Yeah. Are there constraints that you've put on it in order to maintain profitability?

Oh, absolutely. If the DM funnel isn't producing over a certain percentage, we'll cut the spend. We got to make new inventory. If our closers are not closing at 35%, we're going to deprioritize you. If you aren't showing up and setting your own calls and finding ways to win, you're going to be deprioritized. It is truly American. You cut me open and an eagle flows out. This is purely democratic. Results Metrics over feelings, 100%. Yeah,

and I love that you are all in on the content and everything else, but watching the metrics all the way through, 'cause you're building, like, I can picture the engine that you've built for this business.

Yeah.

It's beautiful. Okay, let's dive in on the DM funnel specifically.

Okay.

'Cause I think that's a lot of people who have sold primarily through email or webinars and like that are like, wait, we gotta talk to people individually? But then they also experience the one-on-one. What are some of the mistakes that you made in the DM funnel early on that you're like, okay, if I could go back and be like, hey Jasmine.

Well, the crazy thing is, is I would be responding to DMs and most people were thinking it was AI. And I was like, oh man. So I found that the thing that would be really effective is just to send a voice memo. And so I realized that I talk faster than I type.

Yep.

I believe you. Most people listen to my podcast and they're like, I listen to other people's podcasts at 1.5, but yours I'm listening at 0.75.

This episode is the single highest value per minute it's ever been on my show.

You know, I like to win, Nathan. I know you do. Give me another thing to win at. Um, so one of the things that I realized was if I'm sending a voice memo, that actually worked really well. And then I realized it's like the uglier I looked, AKA it's like 6:47 in the morning and it's kind of dark and my hair is messy from the gym and I'm wearing a big oversized sweater and I'm like, listen, Natasha, are you gonna let fear get in the way or are you gonna make a decision? Let me know. Like, people are like, Oh my God.

Right.

She literally just showed up and did that. And I think that we always think about scaled conversion, which, hey, I am all for. I love that. But there's also the power of seeing somebody and then getting them to trust so that if they get on a call, they're fully bought in. It's just a matter of like, let's make it official. That's different. And I'll do whatever it takes to get an appointment. And so I think you know that, like, for those people who don't know, I kind of stalked Nathan. He was recording a podcast in Los Angeles.

Yep.

I got tickets to come to the podcast because I wanted to ask. I wasn't asking him a favor, not even a favor. I was gonna ask for like a pretty big thing. Like, I wanted to get specific things from Kit to facilitate a course I was having around funnels and course building and all that other stuff. And I knew that I just couldn't get to you just by email or like DM. And so bought tickets to the podcast. My husband and I arrived early, sat front row or second row, and then we dispersed and you had an outdoor cocktail event on the rooftop. Yep. And so I realized that most of the people were using the logical way to exit from the back and up the staircase. But I noticed that you had left the stage, went behind the stage and somehow ascended. And I was like, if he went up, I don't know.

I'm going that way.

So then everybody's walking this way. I jumped this way. stage, and then I follow Nathan up to the top, and I'm one of the first people, and I'm like, hi, I'm totally creepy, but I need to ask to see what Kit can do for this particular course. And then look what happened. So all to say, I will do whatever it takes to, to work. And if that is an effective DM funnel that has me sending voice memos, like, watch me send voice memos.

One quick thing on that story. So Haley, who runs all of our events, creator community at Kit, and, uh, she and I have worked together for like, I don't know, 8 years now. It's a long time. Um, when she saw you in the audience, she's like, Jasmine Star's here. And then I, I think if I remember correctly, when you came up, she's like, oh, you must be here to talk to Rachel.

Yes.

And 'cause you, and you're like, no, to Nathan. She's like,

okay, we have to fill the audience in. Hold on. The podcast you were hosting with Rachel Rodgers. Yes. And so Haley's like, Jasmine's not here for Nathan. No way.

Nathan doesn't have that cool of fans. No. But I love of the dedication to make things happen.

Yeah.

Like, I'll give an example of this. Must have been like 2015, 2016. I was trying to get Tim Ferriss as a customer for Kit. And my friend Ryan Delk was like, look, don't try to reach Tim. And we had a few friends in common. We'd talked on the phone once. Like, we had connections, but he's like, Tim is not the person who's gonna switch his email list from GetResponse over to Kit. You have to figure out who his right-hand person is and then meet with them. And so I figured out there was this guy Adam who lived in Colorado. And then I was like, oh, I gotta figure out a reason to be in Colorado. And Ryan's like, that's a reason. That's it, you know?

Yeah.

And so I just emailed Adam and I was like, hey, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be in Boulder on either this day or this day. I said I have meetings either one, you know, are you in town either day? And he's like, yeah, this one would work. And we ended up, he had his son with him. We ended up like going for a walk around the block. He had the stroller, like, but we just connected and built it from there. And it was all about like, show up in person and make these things happen. And I think too often we're trying to think, maybe it's like back to the funnels, conversion rates, efficiency, like that brain takes over and you're like, well, I don't actually know what opportunity will come from it. And it's like, look, if you landed 2 clients on Tim Ferriss's level this year.

Amazing.

Like that would change your business. Game over.

Yep.

And so maybe you should be willing to get on a plane for it. Maybe you should be willing, you know, to whatever, drive across town, whatever the action is to go above and beyond. And it works so well. Like, as an example, Tim has been on Kit for the last 8 years now, you know, and he's one of our biggest customers.

See, but here's what you need to do now. You need to go and put like CIA agents around in Boulder, protect his number 2's house because we don't want nobody else setting up walks with him. You know what I'm saying? That's right. I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding.

He now lives in Albuquerque.

That's right, that's right.

And you should go there. Okay, so I wanna make it really practical with the offers, 'cause I'm still fascinated by the outcome and shifting that. If we can go with an example, maybe using Kit as an example, 'cause we do something that is very, I'm gonna get in trouble with my marketing team for saying this, but it's generic, right? In the sense that we, like, you can use Kit 100 different ways.

Okay.

In 100 different industries. and all of this. Like whatever you're trying to do, we probably have the software to accomplish it so long as it's generally audience related. And so what I'm thinking about is if you were to design an offer in this style for Kit or another company along those lines, like how would you think about packaging that and saying like, okay, what's the outcome we're creating? What's the timeline on from there?

So what does your dream client want?

They want to, Grow their email list.

But really, at 2 o'clock in the morning, they wake up and they're like, ah, gotta grow that email list.

No, they want income.

That's right.

Right. And so they, you know, probably very similar to your dream client in the sense that they, you know, there's some freedom number. If I could make $1,000 a month on the side, if I could get to, you know, if we go more to the professional creator, someone who has traction, then they're like, okay, how do I get to that $10K a month on from there?

So first things first, I would set up as many calls. I like 100. I don't know what that is. I just like it. You could set up 100 calls with people who you think are your dream demographic. Obviously, we all want the Tim Ferrisses of the world, but at the end of the day, who are not your whales, but not your minnows? Like, who are your dolphins? These are the people, like, they're sticky enough. They're not going to like move away. They have just enough to keep like that emaciated care that entrepreneurs always have. Yeah. Like, you want to speak to the dolphins. 100 dolphins and ask for what is their magic number. If what you believe is they want money, but here again, that's a hypothesis. First, we need to ask. Right, we need to test it. Yes. So, let's just say you felt pretty certain with the hypothesis, then you would have to understand, well, what is that number? And then how do they want to get that number?

Right.

And so, what we think is like we apply our service, our commoditized product and say, this is how they want it, but we're not actually sure. But if we can find a way to help them reach their financial goals in a way that they want, and we could use our SaaS offering to do that, well then we have something cooking there. But I couldn't necessarily go and prescribe like, this is what people want. But I can generally tell you that there's 3 main drivers. People want more time, they want more money, influence/power.

Right.

And so until you're actually certain what those main drivers are for the dolphins, you might be surprised. It might be influence. There's this insatiable thing right now about like mattering really matters. And it's not a driver for me. Perhaps early in my career it was, perhaps when I was in that dolphin status, like I wanted to matter and being able to matter. So how do we reverse engineer the offering that Kit has to actually help them matter? How do they get brand exposure? How do they get more light on what it is? Right. And so based on what it is they want of those 3 main kind of levers, what that magic number is. And so let's just say it is influence. It's like maybe they want 100,000 followers. Mm-hmm. Okay. And then on what specific platform? So how do we reverse engineer using what you provide to get them there? What are the strategies? What are the 3 steps that will help them convert their newsletter follower list into followers, but followers who actually engage? Because if they engage, then it incites other people to come in and do the very thing they want. So it's like the whole strategy is how do we get what you provide— Mm-hmm. To get somebody into action so that person gets a result? The more definitive that result becomes in a specific amount of time, then people are like, heck yes. And so that actually is power. Power is doing something that somebody told you to do and you got the result that you wanted. Now you say, whatever you tell me, I'm going to continue to do.

Yes.

And so, as a provider, if somebody says, I trust Kit, I went through this offering, I got this really, this result that I wanted, tell me what's next. How do I say more? How do I do more? How do I talk more? I think it's pretty fascinating what Alex Hormozi has done with school. There's a lot of dominant power in a community because what they've done is they've just created a very formulaic, this is how you make your first dollar online.

Right.

And then they give you the steps to $100, $1,000, and the aspirational model of $100,000. But what happens is they don't start something like, we're here to give you $1 million from an online community. Not at all. What do they do? It's levers of power built over trust and results. Fascinating. It's psychology.

Yeah, I love that. I think there's There's so many things, like, as you were talking, it makes me think about our ideal client is actually not the person who has 10 subscribers or 100 subscribers. It's probably the person who has 10,000. And so if we were to make an offer and do those 100 calls, it would be about how do you get that person who has 10,000 subscribers on their email list to then figure out exactly what they want and then create that outcome. Yep. And so we would get more specific and then we'd probably go, So I guess, you know, we'd slice it this way based on audience size, and then we'd slice it another way based on verticals and try to understand, yeah, what outcome we're gonna get.

It's so funny, you approached it exactly like an engineer. I did. You literally went sideways, segmented. I was like, he literally just drafted the exact methodology. You saw the spreadsheet. I did, I did, I did, I did, I did. I saw the roadmap actually happening, unfolding in front of us.

That's how it works. I want to dive in on messaging because that's something you're talking about in your offer, how getting everyone very, very clear on messaging, you're helping all your clients with this. Like, how do you approach that for your own offer and what matters so much in reaching the right buyer?

Okay. So there's 2 ways that I would be discussing this because when you're just beginning and getting a digital offer, I'm not— we got to get the message right for a specific person. And then as you mature in business, you understand that in order to go to cast your net wider, you're going to have start speaking a little bit differently. And so I think of in terms of 3 different groups of people when it comes to any strong offer. And there are people who are aware they have a problem and are actively looking for a solution. There are people who are aware they have a problem, but they're not really looking for a solution because they're not sure it exists or it's outside of what they can imagine. And then there's people who aren't aware that they have a problem. So in all of that messaging, I'm not gonna be focused on the person who isn't aware because the amount of information that it would require for me to educate them on what they don't know. So for instance, if I wanted to focus on the person who doesn't know they have a problem, I would say, you feel really stuck in your 9 to 5 and you hit a financial level. Like there's no way you can get past this. And so I have to break their frame of reality. I have to sit outside of their universe of what they think is possible. cast a vision, and then get endless pieces of content building a new set of belief. Then once they actually believe, I have to convert them. That to me is not the game I want to play. But a lot of people are there. In fact, anybody like in the big tech AI, like right now for people who are in the game, we understand that AI is the future. Right. But the amount of people actually using it is so, so, so small. And what people are talking about is like the little people know it's like negative. Like we don't want that. So AI, early AI founders have to be in the game of we need to break your frame of reality. We need to teach you why it's important. important and what's possible. We saw this happening with NFTs back in like 2020. Yeah. They had to— this is what an NFT is. It is a digital piece of landscape. So that amount of push, no thank you. That's not in the business that I wanna get into. So there is the person who's aware of the problem and is looking for a solution. And so I am creating content with a message that is, you want to start a business and you're not exactly how because you're a service provider, or you wanna start a business, like you have people following you and you know you have a lot to say and people trust you, but you're actually not quite sure what the business should be. Okay? Then there's messaging of, I know I have a problem, but I am not aware of the solution. That messaging changes ever so slightly of, there is a life that is different from what you see. And while you think it is impossible that you would be able to create 10 consistent $10K months, Mm-hmm. this is how you do it. And so that 2 types of messaging works really effectively. So when people put out their offer, we wanna know there are people who are looking for That you speak to them differently than the people who know, but they actually don't believe that an offer or a solution exists.

How do you say, like, how do you segment someone into one of those buckets?

Well, good for us, Meta and Andromeda. Like, that's mostly like, I mostly speak to those platforms because I know that there is really effective ways to do it on YouTube. I just haven't dipped my toe. It is a, it's a big beast and I really, really wanna start focusing that like later in 2026. So right now, like, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And my first bite is gonna be with Meta. And so Andromeda is so unrivaled in serving up content. And so the words that you use, the caption that you write, anytime that you add closed captioning, all of that is being read by the algorithm and it's serving it up to people who are kind of going into the, can I create a course? Or what does digital marketing look like? All of that stuff is being spoken to because that's what we're using in our copy for the ad itself.

Okay, if someone has never heard the word Andromeda before, like break that down.

In the most simplest form, and I know somebody who's really in the game is gonna be like, you said it wrong. That's okay. Andromeda is the way that Meta is serving up their ads. Andromeda is the version of what is looking at what you're creating as an ad. And this newest version is called Andromeda. And Andromeda, I like to think of her almost like a siren at sea. She's hearing what it is you're saying and saying, this person needs to hear it and this person needs to hear it. So, the broader the messaging, I help you build a business, it's probably not gonna be served up because it's just still so broad. The more specific you get with the message and then the cleaner the transformation, what is it that somebody really wants? I would be cautious. I know what my people want, and what they want is financial freedom, but I can't use that in an ad because it triggers like that's just too broad. And so what we've got is more honed-in messaging. What is it that you want? Financial freedom, yes, but is it five K a month, ten K a month? There is a way to do that. And when you start mentioning those types of things and just like online resource creation, online offers, digital marketing—all of those words are being read and served up to people who have already. And so

you're making sure that, that, that is going into a particular reel and it's in like the captions and all the details for that reel that you're then serving as ads.

A reel, carousel, or a static image. Static images will still kill. That's the crazy thing. Okay. Oh yeah. Still one, one really strong photo is better than a mediocre reel.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

And so then you're, you're having those perform well as organic content and then running them as ads if they do well, or how do you approach that?

Oh, we're testing it. So sometimes we'll put a piece of organic content and I'm like, that did surprisingly well. Obviously we're going to turn that into an ad. We might change the caption a bit, but we are starting off with here again messaging, like going to my organic audience being like, do you want consistent $10K months? It seems a little bit out of line because what I mostly speak about is like marketing, branding, sales. So the ads are very specific and tailored to somebody who may or may not have that much familiarity with me.

Okay. And then from that content, is Is it like, how are you going from there to DMs? Is it usually ManyChat, like comment to word, hand raiser type of thing or reply to a story?

Yeah, but I believe in like the human component because we ran split tests with ManyChat and like me or me and my assistant and like we're talking about massive, like over 80% difference in people responding. And they always say speed to lead, which how fast can you respond really matters. And yes, it's true, but not speed to lead at making somebody not trust you.

Right.

And that's what we noticed. So I'm like, I would rather just sacrifice a little bit of the response time and then have that person, like sometimes people will come back and be like, oh, there was a typo. I'm like, great. Well, at least they know I'm real, you know? So it's gonna be human for sure.

And then when you're responding in with a voice memo or something else, are you batching that in some way or you're just jumping in when you have time? How does that work?

So, okay, this is like, that's a really good question. Okay, so The RealReal is there are people who are just so clearly qualified.

Right.

That when somebody comes in and like they have a large following or they have a service-based business or they have a digital offer and they're like, I'm just kind of struggling at that $3K mark or $5K mark, I'm going to be handholding and expediting with videos and voice memos. Right. Like, let's just get you on the fast track. There's other people that would require a little bit more work. So I might just, and you have like in Instagram you have saved replies or in Meta you have saved replies. Right. So I will just type in like 3 letters and then I know that's the response that I'm sending. So I don't have to hand type everything. So the quick replies are a game changer.

And what I'm realizing is you have different inboxes in Instagram. Yes. And so you could have someone on your team very easily be like, hey, this is going into the inbox that you need to pay attention to.

That's if I was way more organized. Like, I'm just gonna be real. Like, you have your primary, you have your general, and then you have your requests. And I know that like I probably should go through and indicate who's primary and who's general. It's just, I don't. And then when you run Meta ads, So if you have a response like comment the word this, it's not ManyChat, but Meta has to run it. And so if Meta's running it, they're dropping it into the primary account. So I'm like, ah, like—

They're all in primary.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, final thing. I wanna dive into a specific offer 'cause you and I have a friend in common in Frannie Wilson from Ampersand Studios.

We love her.

She's the best. She's the best. I was at her studio yesterday. I had this interesting experience because I had her on my show sometime last year, and I was interviewing her actually for my book. And I was like, you know what would be fun? If I interview you for the book and we just run it as an episode.

That's good.

And so I was learning about, you know, her, like the iterations through her service-based business, how she's productized it over time. And at the exact same time, she's planning her ready-to-post content subscription for small businesses basically. She's like, hey, we'll come—

And she planned that while she was in my mastermind.

I know.

Okay.

So that's the thing where she's like, And I was like, okay, I'm going to go and show this. She's like, here's this thing. I'm gonna show it to Jasmine tomorrow or something like that. What do you think? Back and forth. And so I was like, she showed me a bunch of the changes and edits that you made. And then I like, that took it from like, oh, that's a cool idea to I wanna buy it. And I actually just hit the 1-year mark. We just renewed for the next year.

And your content's amazing.

Thank you. So I'm curious, like the things that you noticed, like that you tweaked in her offer What were those types of things that you said like, okay, here's how it's coming in versus—

Okay, to the best of my memory, one of the things that stuck out was like, how do we systematize?

Yeah.

Because death by decision really ruins a client relationship. And when you became like, you became the avatar. And I'm like, if working with Nathan is a dream, and she said it was, so I mean, I'm not being nice, I'm just being honest. She's like, how do we work more with the Nathan avatar? I said, well, he is very successful. He's very busy and makes so many decisions in a day that what you want is to have him look at something and clearly say, I get it. I want it. Make it fast and give me the deliverables.

Right.

And so, in the beginning, there was a lot of options. Well, you could do this or you could do that. And you could do this and you could do that. And I'm like, oh my God, if there's more than like 3 here, it's gonna be too much. So, we just went back down and said, what do they really want? Where are you most profitable? And then how can you systematize on the backend? Because I think with the thing with art, it becomes hard to systematize because Because it's a flair. And I'm like, babe, running a business, we're not a docent at a museum. So let's make this so that it's optimized for your profitability, for the ease of the client, and then make them have a long LTV. And here you are a year later and that's LTV. Like that's chef's kiss. Like that's the dream.

Yeah. And so I saw the first version of it and she wasn't pitching it to me or anything like that. She was just like, hey, here's the thing I'm working on. What do you think? Which as a side note is a great way to pitch something.

Great.

Perfect. That's how I always do it when I'm trying to hire someone. I'm like, hey, I have this role. Do you know anyone that might be a good fit?

How could I make this job description better?

Maybe you, would you want? But with that, you're right. It was a ton of options and a lot of decisions to make. And it seemed complex, both for her to fulfill and as a client. And it's like, I don't need any more complexity in my life. And so then after she, She workshopped it with you in the mastermind and came back and said like this, it was like, oh, so I can just click a buy button and then I get this outcome, right? I have, I need to give you 90 minutes to 2 hours of my time every couple of months. And then you're going to drop a reel every single week that's like authentic to me. I don't have to do any, like sold, I'm in. And I've spent well over $10,000 now.

Oh, amazing. Hey, 'cause I tell her too, I was like, I gotta get to Boise because I wanna to buy this offer. This offer is for the Nathans of the world. And if I can be like a Nathancita, like, you know, the smaller, less successful Athena version, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it.

Oh, that's amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thank you.

Where should people go, one, if they wanna check out the offer that you have? 'Cause there might be people in the audience who are like, I'll take that 90-day outcome.

Nice.

And then 2, if they just wanna follow, you know, everything you're doing and they want a podcast that they can listen to at 1x and still have to hurry to take notes.

Well, you can find me @jasminesaldivar. Star, all social platforms, jasminestar.com. But to test out getting a voice message or a video from me, just DM me the word method and then we'll, we'll get, we'll get kicked off. You'll see that right there.

Follow you on Instagram, Jasmine Star. DM the word method. Amazing. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I'd love to hear what some of favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show? Thank you so much for listening. Thank you.