How to Build an Entrepreneurial Company with Nik Storonsky of Revolut

Welcome to Inc.'s The Founders Project with Alexa von Tobel. I'm Alexa, the founder of LearnVest, author of New York Times bestselling book, Financially Fearless, and second book, Financially Forward. I'm also the founder and managing partner of Inspired Capital, a venture firm focused on the entrepreneurs of the future. Each week we sit down with a top founder to share their story of guts, inspiration, and drive.

Hi everybody, I'm your host Alexa Von Tobel, and this week I want you to meet Nik Storonsky, co-founder and CEO of Revolut, the world's first truly global financial super app that helps people get more out of their money. Nik launched Revolut in 2015 to transform the way we spend and transfer money abroad. Since then, he has put Revolut on the path of becoming the world's truly first global bank, changing the way we do all things around money. Revolut has more than 18 million customers worldwide, who make more than 150 million transactions a month. The company operates in over 35 countries and has been valued at almost $35 billion. Before Revolut, Nik was an equity derivatives trader at Credit Suisse and Lehman Brothers, where he traded over $2 billion across various options, swaps, and FX instruments. Nik holds degrees in applied physics, mathematics, and economics. He's an avid kite surfer, mountaineer, and champion swimmer. Let's welcome Nik. Hi, Nik. I'm just so excited to talk to you about Revolut for many, many reasons, but I just want to start with the basics for everyone listening. How do you describe what Revolut is? And where was the aha moment for you to actually go and launch this business back in 2015?

So Revolut is a one-stop financial solution for all your needs that you need as a customer. So we give you bank accounts, we give you ability to transfer money, we give you ability to borrow money, to lend money, to invest, trade crypto, trade stocks. So instead of having many, many apps, many, many providers, we give you everything in one app. at best price or for free. So it's amazing user value proposition compared to any other banks out there. Plus on top of it, we are global. So what it means in practice that you can open account in US, but you can also send money in seconds to people in Australia, Japan, Europe. You can also have local accounts in Europe, local accounts in Australia. So we provide you a global banking solution for all your needs.

So the vision that you just described is, by the way, as a customer, as somebody who studied the category for a long time, is exactly what I personally want. Where did you start? Right? Because you can't say, I'm going to go build everything for your wallet in one app. And oh, by the way, it's also global. How did you think about chipping away at this vision? And as you thought about playing chess on the strategy, like, what were the pieces that you felt like had to start, that had to come first?

Yeah, I mean, in reality, I couldn't claim that from the beginning I wanted to do exactly this product. So initially in 2015, I started as a simple card which allowed you to spend abroad and send money abroad with zero fees and zero— well, not zero, but interbank FX rates. That allowed you to save as a customer $50 to $100 on every $1,000 that you spent. And that's a huge saving. So, we launched this product and then it kind of became popular, and then we slowly started adding other products. So, that's the story.

As you started to think about which currencies and regions would be most critical to your success, how did you think about the strategy for that piece of the puzzle?

Well, to be honest, we were not that sophisticated back then, because for me, it was my first serious business, and I was just trying things. So, I tried opening several countries, I tried multiple products, and then some things work, some things don't. So, I wouldn't claim that we have very kind of sophisticated strategy in defining which countries to go. We were just trying things, playing around, and hoping that things would work out.

One of the things that I've admired most about you from afar is you guys release products exceptionally fast, at a clip that I don't know of any startup that has released products as quickly and feature sets as quickly as you can. Tell us a little bit about not only what drives that, but also your strategy around just releasing features as quickly as you can.

So basically, with time, we learned how to work fast and deliver fast things that we want. So we have pretty well-defined playbooks, how to build stuff, and then we have very well-defined tools, how we build things. So ultimately, every single product that we build, we're not building it from scratch. So effectively what we build, we build the platform with a lot of modularized components on top of it. And then to build every new product, we're not really building from scratch, we're just combining these components together. That's how we're releasing. So there is no magic in it. I think it's just the way we work. And plus on top of it, obviously desire to build things rather than building one thing and polishing, polishing, polishing, because we are a pretty entrepreneurial company and want to try things. And trying things when you have all these tools plus all the platforms that we have is easy and cheap.

One of the things that's really clear is there's a pretty powerful work ethic behind the team at Revolut. And I want to separate 2 questions. The first is, you've said it's so much better to have a small team that's exceptionally brilliant than a larger team that's average. I couldn't agree with you more. As I thought about building Inspired, that's precisely the way that As a team, we've thought about building our own company. Can you talk a little bit about how you think about adding people to the team and the culture behind that? And specifically, is there an interview question you like to ask people to really decide whether or not they're good, they're going to be a good fit for you?

Yeah, ultimately, playbook is very simple. It's mathematics, right? So every time when you add a new team member, you will need to spend your management time. So actually divide all people in 5 categories. So first category, or the best, I call them exceptional, is people who self-define goals and then self-reach the goals. So they do not require iteration with you. They do not even require you to tell them the goals because they self-select the goal and they self-reach this goal. So that's who you need to hire because every additional person that you add which is in this category, they do not spend management time. And that's why a small team of these people will achieve, you know, so much more compared to like, you know, many, many people who— with whom you need to trade, who you need to manage, and so on and so forth. So that's, that's the real secret.

I love that. I've actually never had somebody just say, uh, management is math. Um, so if you can hire people that self-manage and self-achieve, all you're doing is actually just making the company better. As you think about standards for when you hire, is there something you're looking for outside of Everybody wants to hire the people that you just described, but is there something you're looking for in their history, or is there a question you like to ask to figure out whether or not a person meets those actual goals that you have?

Yeah, ultimately, our secret is very simple. You always hire smart people, so you need to have certain interview techniques to interview for problem solving, and usually you can do it through case studies, right? And secondly, you need people who have character, right? So you need to go through their background and identify all their examples or all their track record when they break through almost impossible walls, I would say. So give me an example when you achieved almost impossible goal, right? Then I go through every single career chapter and then I ask them this question and then they need to demonstrate that in every single job they actually break some kind of almost impossible walls. Not that many people will be able to give you examples, but people who will be able to demonstrate it, so that's the right people. Plus, on top of it, if they are smart, so they are usually your superstars. And then skill set is actually secondary, right? If you get people who are brilliant, plus who are wall breakers, so skill set is quite easy to acquire within 1, 2 years. Majority of jobs are not really rocket science.

My second big question about culture and work ethic for you guys is, you're known for almost working 7 days a week, 8 to 10, it is just how you're wired. You know, what you've accomplished at Revolut is truly wild. In such a short period of time to develop so many features, true one-stop financial super app for the planet, which is the mission of the business, which is really powerful. And you've accomplished it so quickly. Talk a little bit about the culture of work ethic at Revolut so that we can all learn from you.

Well, ultimately, in order to achieve the goals, right, in order to compete with large businesses having more resources, more people, they have market share, they already have existing Customers, you need to be smarter, right? Obviously, you need to be faster, and then hell, you need to work hard, right? Because otherwise, I mean, how are you going to compete with other companies who just you know have you know so much more resources compared to you? So that's it's kind of yes. I mean, in certain cases, if you identify some I call golden mine when you're just lucky, you know you jumped on the business, you know there is a huge trend, then yeah, sometimes you don't need to work hard. But in majority of businesses, and because in the world is so efficient. And because there are a lot of smart people, a lot of, you know, good businesses, it's very hard to compete unless you're 100% educated.

I couldn't agree with you more, which brings me to my next topic. So you now have almost 20 million users, and I'm sure that number is an outdated number, and it's growing even faster, which is just really wild adoption in a short period of time. If you were going to teach people listening, what levers do you feel like are the best tools that you had for adoption? Or how did you think about growing that Was it product-led? Was there certain elements, were there certain things that you did that other people could repeat? But how'd you get so big so fast?

Yeah, I mean, really, when we started, it didn't really feel fast, right? So, I remember when we launched the product, then we started like, you know, seeing downloads. It was 1 per day, 5 per day, 10 per day. I remember we had a spike of, you know, 25 in one day when, you know, one of our PR people, they went to coffee shop and then they started giving their cards for free. Then we had a spike from 5 per day to 25 per day. But ultimately, it just slowly building great product and then making sure that our friends know about them, family or friends know about it, and slowly growing. We never invested in marketing until recently. So first 5 years, we didn't do any marketing at all. So it was just word of mouth. So, I think building great product is very important.

Talk a little bit about some of the challenges that you saw building Revolut. What were the hardest parts of the last 5 years? Or if there was one time that you felt like you really were at a fork in the road, what was it?

We almost went bankrupt a few times. We ran out of money, regulatory burden, losing people, hiring the wrong people. To be honest, I made every single mistake you can make. That's not a mistake I made twice or 3 times, and I'm still making mistakes. The reality is running a business, scaling the business is hard, and you play this game, you become better, but then business goes larger, and then game is different as well, and also role changes. It's never-ending challenge, I would say.

As you think about the future of the wallet, I've written 2 books on the category, care deeply about where the wallet's headed. You clearly have a pretty unique point of view about where you think the wallet's going to be in a decade. Tell us some of your predictions.

Well, I think in 5 to 10 years' time, the majority of small to medium-sized banks, they will not survive. They will probably focus more on businesses. I think there'll be 5, maybe 10 huge, large regional players who would get get probably 80% of retail market. And I think the whole ecosystem will be quite connected, whether it will be through crypto or through just, you know, direct APIs. I think, you know, by having account with one player, you know, I can simply shop online with this account, or I can use different tools like, you know, buy now pay later, or I can easily convert money to crypto, I can do payments. But ultimately, my main message is that the market will be dominated by larger players. I think we will see consolidation. I think having thousands of smaller fintech players is not really sustainable because I think ultimately best product wins and the economics of the wallet and then bank account will shrink with competition. So the largest players with the largest scale will survive.

Tell us more, as you think around the future of crypto, blockchain, Web3. What are the things that get you excited about that? And then what are the things that make you nervous?

Well, blockchain definitely gets me excited. I think if I look historically, what happened the last few hundred years, so every time there was a financial innovation, we saw a huge spike in economic activities. First, it was like in Holland, Dutch Empire, right? First, just issuance of stocks. Then obviously, British Empire, bond issuance, swaps, deposits, then obviously, the US with Wall Street. And now what I see, I see blockchain. For me, blockchain is another huge innovation that allows for the financial system across the globe to exist and to allow ordinary people to do whatever they want with their money. They can be market makers, they can borrow, they can lend. They can send money, they can issue tokens for their companies. So that innovation never existed before, and it really supercharges the whole financial system. So I think, provided that governments will let it grow, it can really supercharge the whole humanity in terms of financial innovation and, as a result, economic output.

When you think about what worries you about it, what are the things that you think we need to be cautious about as society, not as regulators, Or as individuals, but more of, you know, this incredibly powerful technology exists that, you know, what gets me excited is overnight from a phone, somebody who is in a rural community can open a bank for free in seconds and now have access to a financial infrastructure that they wouldn't have qualified for prior. And, you know, unlocking a billion bank accounts instantly is a pretty powerful thing for the planet. But what scares you?

I mean, to be honest with you, I'm scared of excessive regulation because the reality is, provided it's not being done right, it will slow a lot of businesses, it will slow down a lot of consumers. Excessive regulation generally is not good for society. Yes, certain regulation is good, but as soon as it becomes excessive, it creates a lot of overhead, a lot of extra costs, companies stop innovating because it's impossible to move fast. And just the whole ecosystem might stagnate.

I agree with you on that, and I appreciate that point. I want to come back to Revolut for a second, which is, again, you built something so quickly, it's so powerful. What gets you excited about the future of Revolut? What are the things that get you out of bed with a ton of enthusiasm every day?

Well, ultimately, I'm very excited about products and about building something that excites me. And then hopefully excite other customers. I'm a product builder, so I love building products. I love seeing opportunities where other people don't see. I love connecting the dots, connecting the products as well to provide something unique. So, this is what really excites me. That's why I do what I still do.

You built your business from zero to now almost $35 billion in valuation in a short period of time. Did you expect it to go this quickly?

To be honest, it just feels very long, right? So yes, I look last 5, 8 years, it feels now quickly and fast, but you just work very every day and then you just feel how slow everything, right? Like getting licenses, building products, communicating with regulators, everything is super slow.

And we'll be right back after a message from our sponsors. I'm now excited from that comment to move into talking a little bit more about you because I feel like you just showed me how impatient you are. Which, which I really, I really enjoy. I want to move, uh, Nik, a little bit to you. So you grew up outside of Moscow. Your parents have clearly done something to make you really, really special. What is one thing that you can attribute to your parents that you think has helped get you to where you are today?

I think they somehow made me extremely competitive in everything what I've done, right? It was a competitive sport, there was a competitive education in there. competitive, call it intellectual challenges. So I think, you know, since 5 years old, I was always participating in different competitions, you know, trying to win, losing a lot, that actually motivated me to actually work harder, so on and so forth. So I think, you know, for entrepreneurs, extremely powerful to be competitive.

So in university, you were a state champion swimmer, and you now just told me you're super competitive.

I've done almost every single sport. I've done boxing, I've done kickboxing, swimming, Swimming, football, even chess.

Where do you attribute your work ethic to? And again, you've been known for having this work ethic where it's, you know, 8 to 11 PM, 7 days a week, and really just somebody who loves to build what you're building. When you draw on your work ethic, where is it coming from?

I think competitions, to be honest here, because I participated when I was young in so many competitions, and it was extremely competitive. So, like, early age, I learned that without putting a lot of effort, you have a very slim chance to win.

What do you think is the hardest part being a founder? What would you say is the best part of the job, and then the hardest part of the job? So let's start with the hardest.

Well, getting the right people, I think that's the key. It's extremely hard, and ultimately, 80% of your success or failure is not down to your skills, but it's down to your ability to find and attract, you know, the right people and put them in the right position. To win, because no matter you know how smart you are, how hardworking you are, like you you can't build anything yourself, right? You need like a very strong team supporting you, and finding this team, getting getting people, promoting people, identifying talent early on, super important. You need to have an eye for for talent.

How do you keep talent? I know that you can get talent, but then what are your tips keeping talent?

I'm not managing them, right? As I told you already, I try to attract brilliant people who self-identify goals and their. sell direct to reach these goals. So for them, I'm more like not even a partner, but, well, coach, I would say. It's the same as, you know, we go playing football or like skiing, right? We kind of, you know, ski together. I may be behind and look at how you ski, and then sometimes I give you certain, you know, comments how you can improve your skiing. So that's my relationship with, you know, my best people. And I think, you know, because they have all these freedom. Plus, you know, hopefully they appreciate my comments on their skiing. They enjoy working with me and I enjoy working with them.

I love that. What's your favorite part of the job?

My favorite part of the job is actually product. You know, sometimes when I'm thinking about solving certain product problems or certain problems in the company, and then some person shows me the solution, I kind of, wow, that just clicks within 2 seconds. And that's the best part of the job when solutions found.

Nik, being a founder, you have to keep getting better yourself. Um, what are the ways that you keep making yourself better, uh, that you can pay it forward to everybody that's listening that also is either a founder or an aspiring founder? But how do you keep improving your game?

I think it's very important to have a mentality that you'll have ups and downs independently of what stage you are and independently how like good you are at what you do or how great is business doing, you'll have downs as well. So it's very important to know whenever you have downs that there will be ups as well. So to stay calm, to focus on the problem, to be very rational as you're thinking and always solving problems. Like the majority of people, they're actually shaken by problems and they let their emotions overtake their decision-making and that's never good. So I think The best thing that a founder can do is to stay rational during downs and knowing that there will be ups to motivate themselves.

Do you have a trick on how you manage your own emotions around things?

I try to do a lot of sports, right? Because really, every problem that you have, if you just forget about it for half an hour, do some sports, and then you can approach it with a fresh head. And with, you know, less emotional state.

I like it. So every time you have a really, really hard problem that even gets under your emotions, you exercise.

Yeah, go to the gym. Yeah, exactly.

And you come back to that. Um, that's great advice. Again, you're known for this incredible work ethic that you bring to Revolut. Can you talk a little bit about how you recharge, right? Because you can't actually just work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And I know you— I think you publicly said you admire You know, the Jeff Bezos, Elon Musks of the world, uh, the, the really, really big thinkers. But how do you recharge, right? Like, you've got to stay running on this marathon. You just told me you thought it's actually been a really long time building the business. How do you refresh yourself so that you can stay as mentally clear and motivated as possible?

Yeah, I love, I love hiking, climbing. I love kitesurfing. So usually, you know, try to take, you know, a week off sometimes longer, just to do kind of sports-related holidays. So if you do hiking or climbing for one week in mountains, this completely refreshes you. So because, like, you don't really see people and you just focus on nature, and that really kind of cleans you from city, from noise, from all the kind of bad thoughts. So that's how I recharge.

Last question, Nik, on you. I'd love to just get a sense, as a founder, what do you hold as sacred? Right? I think underneath all of us, we have these beliefs. What do you hold as sacred?

My secret is that almost every single goal is achievable, or as soon as you have the right approach. And then my approach is defining, you know, the right goals, defining metrics. So what does success look like for this goal? Then defining roadmap or steps, what I need to do. And then, you know, every day executing the steps. And periodically revisiting the roadmap of steps and asking myself, okay, are these steps still valid? Or maybe I should do something else. And then you repeat, repeat, repeat. And that's how you reach almost every single goal, which is reachable, or the ones that is achievable.

Nik, I want to quickly ask, I'm going to just literally throw out a question. I want the first thing that comes to your mind. It's the sort of fun quickfire round here. I want to get a sense of what gets you out of bed every day.

Clock alarm.

Is there a favorite book that you've read in your life?

Not a business—

it doesn't have to be a business book. It doesn't have to be— any book that has changed your life that you kind of mentally come back to time and time again?

Well, I love, for example, Ray Dalio, right, who wrote Principles. But I actually read it even before he printed the book. I think it was on their website. It was like in a 50-pager. which I actually prefer much more compared to the book, which is 400 pages long, because it's so dense. And I think it was not really PR ready, so it wasn't polished. It was pretty hardcore essence of his principles. So I think that's the book that I really like.

If you fast forward 2 years, how many days a week do you think the average of society is in an office?

Maybe 1 day a week, maybe 2, 1.5, I would say.

Got it.

My best guess would be 1.5 days a week. Yes.

My last question is, outside of fintech or outside of Revolut, what is one thing that in the last year has caught your attention, something that's happening in innovation that you're really enthusiastic about, that you think is the future, that, that gets you excited? And it can be anything. It can be a product, it can be a new company. But what's one thing that's gotten you excited about innovation in the last year?

Well, for me personally, I think it's pretty exciting. Medicine is pretty exciting, right? So how human body works, and to be honest with you, I still think we have a very weak understanding how human body works compared to, for example, physics. It's amazing that we know how the whole universe works, you know, how, how universe was created, all this, you know, particles, physics laws, or like Newton's physics. Einstein physics, and so on and so forth. But we are so kind of scratching the surface how human body works. So for me, that's amazing what is possible to achieve if we would be much deeper in our knowledge of human body.

That's amazing. And I do agree that we're going through a profound change medically, which I think is pretty exciting for everybody. Nik, thank you so much for joining us here today. This is one, again, just been a fun moment for me because I followed you from afar and I'm rooting for you. But then for everybody out there, if you haven't already downloaded Revolut, please do. It's an incredible app. And you can join us next week for Inc. The Founders Project with Alexa von Tobel. So again, thank you so much, Nik. It's been an honor to have you here today and we're rooting for you and you're raising the bar for entrepreneurs everywhere. And so keep it up.

Thank you very much. Thanks a lot for inviting me. Thank you.