#32 Monday Night Konsensus: Privacy Through Wallets

Awesome, thank you, Harmat. And we are getting a message from the chat that you are a little bit quiet, so if there's anything you can do to up your sound a little bit louder.

I will try to hold the phone closer. Sorry, guys.

All

right, that sounds great. This was a problem in the beginning as well. It didn't work out very well, sorry.

All right, Nopara, would you let everybody know who you are, what you do?

Yeah, I'm just a geek writing code. So, actually, there was some problem with the sound at my part, but now I don't hear it, so, okay, it's good. So, yeah, I'm Nopara73, going with that on Twitter. and on Medium, and I'm blogging and writing code for privacy and Bitcoin for quite a long time now, and also doing some research. And that's about me.

Okay, awesome. Thank you for taking time and coming here to tell us about your product. I'm super excited about it. I just recently learned that actually I was under the impression that it's somehow an Android project, and I was educated that it's actually available on PC. So I have downloaded it. I haven't tested it yet, but I'll be sure to be doing that soon. And we also have here my co-host, Raphael. Raphael, say hi to everybody.

Hi, everybody.

And we also had Max Hillebrand, which I'm sure everybody knows, doing good work here on the ConsenSys Network, also on the World Crypto Network. But it looks like he just dropped out. So we're just going to go ahead and continue with the topic. Would you guys just tell us a little bit, like, why do we need— why do you guys think that we need privacy features and fungibility in money? Why is that important?

How much money do you have?

Well, I'd rather not say.

Well, there you go. Okay,

well, that's a fair point.

So it's— what's important is that Bitcoin works differently than the banking system. In the banking system, your crazy ex-girlfriend is never going to figure out anything about you, right? But with Bitcoin, she might. So we might better make it at least as good as the banking system, but Preferably better, because fungibility is a fundamental property of good money. And basically, that's in our specification of how to build money, right? And we want to build money.

Yeah, I agree.

Financials has always been, and I believe it's always going to be, a private thing. Like, As no one asked you how much money you have, you didn't want to answer, right? If I ask for your bank statement, will you give it to me? No, obviously not. I hope at least.

Well, I don't think anybody will give it to you.

But with a Bitcoin transaction, if you make a transaction to anyone else and you share your public address, he might going to be able to check your previous spendings, your account balances, and so on. So it's a privacy leak, to say.

Right. So it's— I think it's worth to clarify here that, you know, Bitcoin transactions are transparent and immutable. So it is a public ledger. So all your transactions will be visible unless you take measures to protect your privacy, which is— this is one way to do it. And yeah, we actually had a question right here. What do you guys think about chain analysis tracking problems? Is this a solution that you're providing to people?

You know, Chainalysis is an interesting company. I mean, how can, how can a company be legal that's main purpose is to, to, to figure out how much money do you have and what you are spending it for? And it's a private company, not a government or anything like that. So yes, we are definitely building stuff that China cannot track, but they are not even that advanced yet. Actually, they are going to the low-hanging fruits right now at this moment. They cannot even even get back the traditional Bitcoin mixers whose privacy is terrible, but they cannot even get back their data that what's going from where to where because most people who are doing stuff, they are not even using any mixers. Actually, 50%, they are sending directly to exchanges, and this is actually Chainalysis data. So So yeah, that's what they are going for right now.

So to clarify for the viewers, Chainalysis is a company that is precisely tracking people and people's money and ID business. And why would you do that? Who would be your client? So that leads to some kind of— seems to be like it leads to some kind of an extortion racket. Which which is probably run by some kind of central authorities. So I I don't see that as a beneficial thing for for individuals. So then yeah, we we might have this tool to actually we could use to so-called would you say it would be like a replacement for this Bitcoin tumblers that has been have been used before for this kind of reason that personally I don't find those that secure is this. Better, and and if so, then how it is better.

Yes, if you want to come from this angle, then I actually wrote an article called Traditional Bitcoin Mixers, and I compared it to to to other methods like more like Join Market or Coin Shuffle or Wasabi Wallet. And and and and there are a couple of things. For example, traditional Bitcoin mixers can steal your money, right? You send them the money; they can steal. We cannot steal any money because you are not sending us money. You are not even mixing money with us or anything like that. You're just simply we are just simply giving a platform to you to coordinate with other people. To mix with them. So there is no stealing risk. That's one. The second one is that traditional Bitcoin mixers can de-anonymize you because that's how they work. We cannot because that's how we work. We can go into the technical details later if you want. Other thing is that it's kind of a scam. Because if Chainalysis would care about traditional Bitcoin mixers, well, they do, but they don't care enough right now. But they will. If they care, then they identify the traditional Bitcoin mixers transactions and they look at the blockchain that, hey, here 7 Bitcoin went in and then here 7 Bitcoin came out. How is that mixing? Okay, here three Bitcoin went in. Here three Bitcoin went out. So you just have to identify the traditional Bitcoin mixer transactions and and and and and that subset sum analysis. That's how it's called. And you lost your privacy. And we are doing equal amount mixing. So if if you you you are Mixing with other people, but if you have seven Bitcoin, then only zero point one Bitcoin will come out as a mixed coin for you, and zero and six point nine Bitcoin goes back to you. So zero point one Bitcoin is our denomination, and that's how much it's humanly possible to mix at. this time of point. So that's why it's a bit scammy, because they are not saying that they can steal your coin and they can de-anonymize you. They know that if you are doing that, you're taking the risk, and every user of them do. But this privacy risk is actually what's not really talked about, but— But that's why it's a bit scammy because they are not talking about that.

So on Wasabi Wallet, the minimum amount so you can use the service is 0.1 Bitcoin. Is that correct? Yes. And why is that exactly? Why was that chosen?

So we have to have one denomination, right? And there are some DOS factors, denial of service attack factors. If people are, are trying to disrupt Wasabi rounds, they can, but they cannot too long because they don't have that much Bitcoin. But if You take down the denomination for very, very small that those attack might happen or more likely to happen. And rather, we would go with one denomination right now and figure out multiple denominations or even unequal mixing input mixing later. And Because if we are using one denomination, that means more users using the same denomination. So from liquidity in initial phases, that's why 0.1 denomination seems to be the most reasonable thing to do at this point.

Just one thing. Can I add one thing? Sorry. You mentioned the denomination, the 0.1 denomination. You can use the wallet with less money as well, as an ordinary normal wallet, and it still provides better features than any other wallets out there. But if you want to use the CoinJoin, I mean the privacy feature, you need the 0.1 Bitcoin. But as an ordinary wallet, you can use whatever amount you wish. And for the other features, why is it better as an ordinary wallet? Nopara can elaborate on it. What do we use? How do we use? And why is it better on both security and privacy side as well?

Yes, so the main point about the Norma wallet features is that All the light wallets can— it's also a privacy feature. So all the light wallets, like what do you do with, let's say, Mycelium? You connect to their backend, you give all their Bitcoin addresses to them, so they know everything about you. And all the light wallets work like this or similar way. And we had to work very, very long and very, very hard to make sure we can have a light Bitcoin wallet that doesn't expose your addresses on the network level. Bitcoin Core is good from this point of view. Stratis Breeze Wallet is good from this point of view. And other Bitcoin full nodes. They don't expose your addresses because what they do, they just download all the transactions and locally establish your balance. But other than that, no light wallet does anything. All the light wallets are failing on a privacy level from network analysis attack.

Yeah. So it's— is it fair to say that it's actually already a pretty good wallet and then it's the CoinJoin abilities, the gravy basically? So you should test the wallet either way.

Exactly. Because it's not just the aspect of Chaumian CoinJoins in the Wasabi wallet, which are cool as hell. Right? That is fantastic cryptography that is actually a tool to defend your liberty and privacy. However, that's far from, from it. Wasabi is actually very, very, very much more. And one of the really nice features that are included is the Neutrino client. So this is where it differs from most current lightweight wallets. Lightweight usually with a normal Bloom filter The lightweight wallet asks a couple semi-trusted nodes about the direct address and how many Bitcoin are related to a specific address. With Neutrino, this is completely turned around. It is that the node itself, the thin client, wasabi in that sense, they only— they ask for a filter that is publicly known, and then on the client side, it is checked which address belongs to the user. So the semi-trusted node, in that sense, does not know which addresses you're interested in, and therefore doesn't know how many Bitcoin you have. So this Neutrino feature is a fundamental win for privacy. And even further, stuff like quality coin control and good labeling of the coins and UTXOs that you have in that wallet is a feature that should be in most wallets, but unfortunately it is not so. So there are many other features, other than the charming coin joins that make Wasabi so interesting.

Thank you.

Oh, thank you, Max. Max here is certainly the best, well, most well-versed, at least, on Wasabi Wallet. And that's exactly why I wanted you guys on the show, because I'm into it as well. And it sure sounds like something that is super useful. However, there's like, I have this question about those mounts, like, Also in the audience, there's a question of if there's a service coming that you would be able to transact unlimited amounts of BTC kind of like anonymously. And, you know, do you think there will be any other way than let's say OTC? Because if I understand correctly what happens now, if you send a large amount for let's say that you send 100 Bitcoins, then what you would end up with is 1,000 UTXOs for 0.1 bitcoins. So that might be inconvenient. Is that a correct assumption? And also, would go into the— do you think there will be a way to transact unlimited amounts of Bitcoin anonymously?

21 million bitcoins, so unlimited is not going to work. Yeah,

and isn't the 0.1 denomination just a current situation? I mean, you could change it later, right?

Yes, so I think where the misunderstanding is, is that the 0.1 bitcoin is actually— so you are mixing to yourself, right? Not to someone else. You are mixing to yourself, and then what you're doing with the coins that came out of the mix is that 0.1 denomination is only just one round, and you are doing multiple rounds, and that's where the misunderstanding is, I think.

All right, and just how quickly are these rounds going on?

Well, at the moment there are around 8 to 10 rounds a day. But it very much depends on the number of users. So the more users, the more liquidity the wallet has, and the rounds are getting quicker and quicker.

All right, cool. Yeah, that's what I thought, something like that.

So how does this technology compare to, let's say, Samurai Wallet Ricochet, is there any overlap? Like, is this a totally different thing or does it accomplish similar goals?

So what Samurai Wallet Ricochet does is that it is sending multiple transactions before it sends multiple transactions to yourself before it sends the real transaction to someone else. That's for— well, it can be useful for some things. We don't have such a feature.

How about the Stonewall protocol?

So the thing with Ricochet is that it is mainly used if you have quote-unquote dirty Bitcoin. that might have touched a darknet market previously. And Coinbase exchanges, like Coinbase, might not take your Bitcoin as valid and fungible because in the history of the transaction of the UTXO, it has been touched by such a darknet market. And that's where Ricochet can help you because it adds additional hops before you actually spend this UTXO at these exchanges or deposit them. So this is where Ricochet is used for. However, Samurai does have a CoinJoin feature coming, which is called Whirlpool, which is based on the ZeroLink protocol that was co-authored by Adam. And I do believe that the Samurai dev was, was involved in writing that paper as well, on which the, uh, Chaumian CoinJoins in Wasabi is fundamentally based on.

Yes, so if you want to describe Fundamental difference today between Wasabi and Samurai is that, okay, one is Android and the other one is desktop. So there is that. But what the thing is that Samurai is trying to trick existing algorithms and existing chain analysis, blockchain analysis algorithms. Algorithms. And we are trying to build algorithms those doesn't trick them, but it makes provably unanonymizable. So, right, if Balint and me mixing Coins together, then there will be a 0.1 output and another 0.1 Bitcoin output. So how do you say which one is mine and which one is Binance? It's mathematically impossible up to a point. But yeah, so we are trying to build something that's delivering anonymity and they are trying to trick blockchain analysis. That's the difference between the approach of the 2 wallets today.

How does it work if someone goes on and puts some really dirty coins into a CoinJoin? Would someone just have these, let's say, dirty coins as their spendable input or output after that? Or do— does it get somehow mixed with all the others, or how does it work?

So have you seen a Bitcoin transaction in a block explorer before?

Yeah, sure I have.

So it's the same but with much more outputs And much more inputs.

Oh, all right. So all different kind of wallets would send their bitcoins into this certain one address or something like that. Is that correct? And there would be a lot of outputs from that.

So exactly.

Yeah, I understand that. Yeah.

So usually you, you simply have on your own balance, you have UTXOs, unspent transaction outputs, which you can use as new transaction inputs. And then you further specify public keys or, well, addresses, uh, to which you will move or transact these amount of Bitcoin. And what the— what you're specifying in there is just the amount that will correspond to each new address. And the difference between outputs and inputs is the mining fee. And with, uh, with CoinJoins, especially Chaumian CoinJoins, uh, you have, uh, several different people providing funds in the input section and approving control over the private key with a signature. And they also specify an address, uh, which will be used in the output set, uh, with the value of 0.1 Bitcoin. And each individual sends a unique address, but puts the 0.1 Bitcoin, uh, as the denomination. Thus, you create new unspent transaction outputs that are all equal in value and all are in the same transaction and thus have the same transaction ID. And the, the difference of inputs and outputs is the change address which each individual receives. So if you put in 1 Bitcoin in the input and you specify 1 address which will get 0.1 Bitcoin in the output, then you have another change output of 0.9 Bitcoin Which of course is not is not mixed. It is it is not it is not coin joined because it has an unequal amount to the zero point one Bitcoin.

And that's correct. I hope people could follow it.

Well, to be honest, I found it a little bit hard to follow, but I think maybe I understand it like. You know, it just takes a long time to, let's say, if you want to wash a bigger batch of coins, then you will just have to take time to do those in 0.1 batches. Is that pretty much what you're saying?

Max?

No, Pádraig, you were muted.

Oh yeah, I, I thought this question is for Max.

Yes, so the, the goal of CoinJoins is that—

So please feel free to answer it.

So the, the goal of CoinJoin is to create unspent transaction outputs with the same value, and a lot of them in, in one single transaction. So you're kind of batching several different transactions that all generate the same value of a new unspent transaction. output. And if you have a large amount of Bitcoin to do that, well, then you need to create lots of individual UTXOs with the same denomination. Now, if you only have one UTXO that you provide as an input worth one Bitcoin, and then you provide 10 outputs, all with 0.1 Bitcoin, then you have created a lot of input— a lot of new UTXOs of equal value. But it is clear that they all derive from one single input. And so you haven't really achieved any privacy. Where Wasabi comes in with these CoinJoins is that several different individual people all provide their own unique funds, and it just creates an output of 0.1 Bitcoin out of some of these funds. And because there's a large anonymity set of all the possible people partaking in these CoinJoins, that's where the privacy aspect comes in. That's where you generate fungible Bitcoin that are all equal. And not traceable, thus, to you.

You know what's interesting? That lately I realized Laurent MT from Samurai Wallet was talking about OXT Block Explorer. You know, Samurai built OXT Block Explorer and was talking about how to How to— because there are amounts, there are outputs, those are not anonymized, right? Only the 0.1 Bitcoin outputs are anonymized in Wasabi. And he was talking about the non-0.1 Bitcoins, those should not be anonymized. But he said there is a computation bottleneck there to to even get those back. So that was interesting. So even those are hard to de-anonymize.

So if I summarize a little bit, because everybody, kind of like what Monero did, they changed back the ring size to default. So everybody has to use the same one to provide kind of like, how to say, fungibility, I guess. So when everybody's using the same exact specifications for the transactions, then I guess it makes sense that you can actually mix those. And if you make any kind of different parameters, you will be singled out and then you won't achieve any privacy. So that's my takeaway from what you said. Rafael, you had something to add?

Yeah, I think I got it now how the system works, but just To make sure, I'll ask my stupid question. And it's about that if I have, for example, let's say 10 bitcoins from actual dark markets that has been flagged as some way as dirty bitcoins or something like that, if I just myself go on and think it wouldn't actually help anything, right? I mean, I have to get some other outputs in there. It doesn't— if all the coins that join are so-called dirty and I try to— I make the CoinJoin and try to transfer my Bitcoins to Coinbase, they would not accept it, or did I understand it right?

But you cannot do that because it's in our terms and services that you cannot use coins From darknet markets, right? So

oh okay okay.

Yes, you click yes then then then well who would ever click terms and services agree before reading it, right?

Yeah of course.

There's no such a thing.

Yeah all right. Yeah and just to make clear, wanting to have your privacy doesn't mean that you are doing something wrong or some. Something illegal or something like that. You know, there's different restrictions in different countries. What is illegal and all that? For example, there used to be these kind of transactions where people send these one Satoshi transactions to other wallets. For example, from these addresses, I think it was something like number one and Sochi, and. Those were, for what I understand, they were kind of like tagging your Bitcoin addresses, but I'm not actually sure for what and how did it actually go. I haven't done any research about that. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Yeah, at least there was a couple of years ago, there used to be some people sending at least 2 old Casasius coins People used to send some one Satoshi transactions just to, you know, tag the certain address. I'm not actually sure how and how does it work.

So I, I know what the dust attack is. I'm not sure that's what you're talking about, but I can talk about that if you want.

Yeah, please, if you may, just

So what if I sent you Bitcoin 5 years ago and you, let's say, you put your address on, I don't know, on Twitter, but then deleted it, whatever. The point is that I sent you that Bitcoin and then you spent it already, but your address, your history is still there somewhere on the internet. And then I, I want to send you another Bitcoin. Then someone, some blockchain analysis, sends because they know that that's your address. They send you some, I don't know, some not one Satoshi. That's most wallets just doesn't handle because that's dust. But like let's say one dollar or something. Then your wallet by default is going to join that coin together with your new coins. So now blockchain analysis knows that what you had back then and what you have right now. So there is the there is the problem.

Okay, all right. Yeah, I think it's the same thing. Yeah, I was just reading about it in a little bit here in in Reddit. Yeah, it used to be some kind of these addresses, you know, like a small Bitcoin. Spamming, you know, from addresses like 1Sochi, 1Enjoy, 1Ron, 1Paul. I mean, like, the sending addresses started with that, but there's actually nothing about what it can actually do or where did it end or who was it that spammed those or anything.

Maybe that was a— it's just someone wanted to play a game and send people a little bit of money and You know, if you send someone one Satoshi, well, that's that's already under the dust limit. Whatever. If you send someone one Satoshi or very small amount of Bitcoin, then your wallet is going to be stupid and put that input into a transaction, even though that you are more than how much you are paying. How much that that that one Unspent transaction output worth. So basically you are worse off than not spending it at all.

Exactly. And, and here's where excellent coin selection has to come in, because if you do not know which money you're spending, then you might foolishly put these types of different transactions together, and that can lead to a pretty serious break in your privacy. So again, Wasabi is much more than just CoinJoins. This late labeling of the UTXOs is essential, especially because at the current state our automatic coin selection algorithms are pretty shit, to be honest. They go more for size efficiency and not for privacy, and not at all for privacy. So this really might break— might make you or deanonymize you if you're not careful with what money you pay whom. And these dust attacks are both an attack on your privacy and also on the, on the blockchain itself, right? That, that is spam which, which externalizes costs to all those running a fully validating and fully storing node, which you should. And so if you have a lot of transactions or dust transactions like we saw in November, December, January 2017 and '18, then you have high fees on the network and you deanonymize users. So that, that is a break on, on several different levels and quite a serious attack vector actually.

Yeah, that's right. And what I'm reading now—

yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, it's, uh, one explanation here in Reddit that is saying, uh, why did these transactions happen is like it could be just, you know, a marketing technique to just post your one little word to different addresses and get people to Google it out and what it is and why did they send this to me or something like that. Or it could be, for example, in Casasius coins, there were just these certain amount of coins made. And even though there is a visible site where you can see how many coins have been opened and which, which are not, people would like to— some people could like to send some small transactions in all of those coins. Just for, I don't know, whatever, you know, knowing which coins are actually opened and which are not or something like that.

Yeah, makes sense.

But yeah, well, I had another question also, is that the company behind Wasabi Wallet is zkSnacks, if I understand correctly. And how does it work with the With the protocol, I mean, how does the company thing fit in the scene?

Sorry, I didn't get the final part of your question.

Yeah, I mean, how does it work with having a company that tries to, you know, keep people's privacy and create a protocol? How does it work in your end? I mean, like, Yeah, why a company behind it?

Well, we wanted to make it absolutely legal and fully legal, and as we want to scale and we want to make, I mean, the whole thing international and make it available to everyone, we decided it's absolutely necessary to have a company behind it in case if we want to bring in funds, investors, and and so on. It's absolutely necessary since the further developments will require a lot of time, a lot of money, and so on. It's absolutely necessary. By the way, the company is based in Gibraltar.

All right. Yeah, good to know. Do you have any worries that, you know, some kind of, you know, government parties or something like that, restrictions could come to your company for, you you know, creating these protocols even though they are not illegal or anything right now, but, you know, you never know what they're gonna decide next.

Well, that's a good question, and absolutely it's in our minds. And the problem is, as you mentioned, with regulations. It's not regulated somewhere, it's regulated somewhere, it's not somewhere, it's strict whether you can use Bitcoin or not. You can trade Bitcoin or not, and so on. And as long as the regulations do not—I mean—you can make such a business, and it's not illegal. Till that time, we are trying to work and survive. As soon as regulations and restrictions will come, we will try to well. How to say, accommodate to them.

All right, much appreciated what you do.

Thanks a lot.

Yeah, it's good to see that this is definitely an upside of a bear market. You see a lot of people building great, awesome products that we can all benefit from in the future. And I do think that providing this very useful end-user solutions with ease of use in mind, we will reach mass adoption and that will drive the infrastructure development, which is scaling solutions. And I do think that we need to go offer better services than we have at the moment. And yeah, I also salute you for doing what you're doing. It seems like a very cool project. And I want to start moving a little bit towards the forward, but I wanted to talk about at least One more aspect of wallets. And before I do, I'd like to thank you for the viewers. We have 15 live viewers, I think, right now. So smash that like button. And if you like these streams, and if you like my new mic setup, if the voice is like honey to your ears, maybe you can donate a little bit so I can get these microphones for the rest of the team as well. So I just wanted to ask you guys, do you think these like wallets and projects are kind of like the minting companies of the future. Like, is there gonna be a situation that different coins will be valued differently perhaps based on the wallets they come from? Have you guys thought about this?

Oh yeah, actually very much so. I do believe that private coinage firms are— or minters in that sense— are a nice analogy for wallet providers in general. Because a coin fundamentally is the user interface to the gold or silver that is the base monetary asset. Only with a coin do you know the purity and amount of the money you're transacting with. Of course, it's hard to verify and prove it, but at least it's a nice user interface. And just like private companies can handle coinage really, really efficiently, so do I believe that private companies like the CK Snacks company or like Samurai, or Mule Tools working on Samurai, or like Blockstream working on GreenAddress, or Electrum working on their wallet, is that these private companies and dedicated individuals can provide a really nice user interface to the, to the base money, which is Bitcoin or eventually Lightning. So that sense, absolutely. And will we see different value of the UTXOs themselves? Well, yes, that is where Bitcoin breaks in fungibility and, and where it has still room for improvement as a currency, as a money. For example, you see that Coinbase rewards— so these, these coins that miners get, the inflation, new Bitcoin created— it's a new chain of digital signatures representing a coin. So these UTXOs with a short history, with not many transactions, are actually selling at a premium. And so if you want to have quote-unquote fresh coins, then you can go to these miners and buy them over the counter for quite a bit of a premium. So I would say yes to both, Niko.

Oh, thank you for—

damn, I've been wondering. Thank you.

Uh, there was actually a donation here. So whenever you donate, there's a green ball here, and as you can see, we are going up right now. We just passed $200. So thank you, uh, Thank you for whoever donated. And yeah, let's keep talking and maybe we'll have one more round of comments from the panel and then I'll choose some questions from the chat. So please post your questions right now. Go ahead, Rafael, you had something to say.

No, I was just wondering that— I've been wondering the same thing that Max just told me, told us, that if there is You know, much heavier history in certain coins, they would just be heavier on the blockchain and that would cost much more to transact them or move them. So yeah, I've been wondering. Yeah, same thing. And it's interesting stuff.

Right. So guys, do you have something to add that we haven't talked about yet? To talk about something upcoming? Maybe you want to shill some services more?

Just maybe one more thing you mentioned just a few minutes ago. Basically, this wallet is mainly for end users who are willing to pay with Bitcoin their rental fees.

I'm sorry, your sound is fading away again. I doubt that people—

Sorry.

It's

a

little bit better. I think that there's something like that the sound is degrading somehow. I'll try to refresh on my end and let's see if that helps. All right.

So did it get better?

Yes, way better. Go ahead.

Ah, great. So I just wanted to mention that this wallet is basically mainly now for end users, those users who are willing to pay their rental fees, want to receive their wages, pay for anything in Bitcoin. And if you want to pay with Bitcoin for something, you want to reserve your privacy. And with the CoinJoin and with the feature in Wasabi Wallet, you can preserve it because the receiver— I mean, you buy a plane ticket or whatever— that service provider is not going to see your whole previous transaction history. and your balance and so on. So basically at the moment Wasabi is for this. Later on, a few years later, I mean when Bitcoin will get more fungibility or goes more mainstream, maybe it's gonna be a bit different. But now we are focusing mainly on people who are using Bitcoin in their everyday spendings.

All right. I just got a question also that, is there going to be an Android or mobile wallet for Wasabi? With what kind of a time period can we expect that?

Yeah, we always get this question among the first ones. Yes, we are planning for iOS and Android, but not in the near future. At the moment, first we are focusing on enhancing the wallet itself, the desktop wallet, fixing the bugs and building in some user requests and so on. And later on, let's say, I don't know, I don't want to promise anything, but maybe in a year.

In 10 years, yes.

Okay, then in 10 years.

Yeah, all right, awesome. Yeah, no mean to rush. I mean, this is great that we have the desktop version now.

No, no, that is actually not at all, uh, all right. Wasabi, get off the call, get back to coding. Come on.

We are doing it, you see. This is my main developer now.

Kudos for not giving us an unreasonable— I mean, unrealistic timeline. At least

2 weeks. 2 weeks.

Yeah, that's right. We are like sharks waiting for some next, next bite.

All right, there's actually quite a few questions here, so if you guys don't mind, we'll just go through those and then I guess we can start to wrap it up. So we already went through the mobile client, it's coming at some point. There's a question about best practices if you're going to send your coins back to your wallet. For example, you probably don't want to send all of them at once for convenience. Like, like we like to say, convenience is the death of security. So what would be the best practices to using this service then?

Yeah, you shouldn't do that at all. I mean, privacy is, is, is really hard. So if you— yeah, I mean, you have to know that what's your threat model is, right? Do you want to risk your privacy By sending back your coins to your Trezor, well, maybe, maybe, maybe you, you give more to your security that you, you don't want to hold your coins in Wasabi because that's a desktop wallet. But I'm comfortable holding my coins in a desktop, especially a desktop wallet that I wrote. But my point is that, uh, it's better for your privacy if you don't send it back because then you send it back to a place where all your Bitcoin addresses the backend knows about. So you did not achieve anything against Trezor. You achieved anything against blockchain analysis companies. So yeah, it's not a clear cut.

All right, thank you. There's another question about the block size. Not sure how it relates, but what do you guys think? Are 4 megabyte blocks viable for Bitcoin right now, or is 2 megabyte SegWit still enough?

We

have

4 megabyte SegWit. SegWit is a block size or block weight increase to 4 mega.

So what's, what's actually the difference, uh, in case somebody doesn't know, what is the difference between block weight and block size?

Uh, okay, okay, that, that might be a bit technical and I'm not sure in the details, but basically what Segregated Witness or SegWit does, it segregates the witness. So it removes the witness script of the signature and removes this in a special part of the block, which old clients do not store. So basically, you toss out a part of the signature and do not keep it for the long term in the blockchain itself. And that is for— that gives you 3 times as much storage capability for traditional clients.

I think that's a good explanation, and let's not get the whole another series if we go into that that topic. Max,

what

are

you talking about? We need that 128 megabyte blocks like Satoshi's vision is saying, you know.

No, no, no, no, no, no. Terabyte blocks.

Oh yeah, that's correct.

That's the vision's vision vision.

Yeah, the Craig's vision.

So, you know, the bigger the blocks are, the harder it's going to be to use a Bitcoin wallet. Wasabi is the same. If you have more Batch32 transactions in a block, then you have to synchronize longer. In Wasabi right now, it's almost instant, but as Batch32 2 options. Uh, adoption grows, it's going to be harder and harder. And if the block size would go up to whatever size you want, then Wasabi wouldn't be a light wallet anymore, I think. But, but we have things how we can fix it, how we can improve on it. There is always something to do, but these things are very, very— you have to make engineering decisions and compromises, and not always everything is so obvious. So regarding Wasabi, bigger blocks means longer synchronization, right? And you want a mobile wallet. So what do you want, mobile wallet or bigger blocks? You can't have both.

But we want both.

Sorry?

But we want both and we do not accept a trade-off. We want it now.

Yeah, we wanted everything now.

Oh yeah, of course, we couldn't possibly wait for it. We have an absolutely super high time preference, and this is precisely the problem. Decentralized movements are supposed to move— excuse me— slowly because of a reason. I mean, we're talking about Money Protocol here, so I'd rather everybody takes their time and you guys take your time and provide a safe solution for everybody to use. That's at least my hope. Yeah, I think that's a good point. My view. So we're trending towards the end of the show. I wanted to thank you for the great guests, for the co-hosts, Max, for your insight, for all your hard work that you're doing. And at the end, I always reserve a shilling moment for everybody. So go through one more round, tell us where you can— where people can find more about you if you want to advertise some services. Whatever pops into your head. So let's start. Go ahead, Harmann.

Well, first of all, thank you very much for your opportunity, for the opportunity to be here. Well, the more users, the better the fungibility of Bitcoin is. So please use Wasabi Wallet if you want to preserve your privacy, and I hope we can Talk again sooner or later.

Absolutely, it's been a pleasure. Adam, go ahead.

Yeah, thanks for today. I was pleasantly surprised that Max is coming to you because he's a great guy. You should listen to him.

Oh yeah, I agree totally.

Well, I'm flattered, but I'm sorry, I cannot accept this because especially Uh, it's— it really sucks when, when Adam has to appear on shows like, like this one or the World Crypto Network, because that means he, he's getting 2 hours less of coding in, which is very much needed. So what, what I can show would be, uh, use Wasabi Wallet, not just only because it provides you with privacy, but further because of the tiny fee that goes to the CK-SNACK company. Wasabi can hire even more developers and, and make sure that this, this thing moves forward are really, really important. So use Wasabi first and foremost. And then another little plug that I'm super, super excited about, and I cannot really tell yet why I'm so excited about, but maybe you can put one and one together. So the Nodl at nodl.it is a very, very, very interesting device that is worth looking into. A Raspberry Pi on steroids running at the moment Bitcoin Core, the Lightning Network, I think LND daemon, and BTCPay TCP server. So you right now already have a merchant processor of your own self-sovereign money with instant payments on a device that is always on and that you fully control. Lots more to come. That's all that I say. Nodle.it. And thank you very much, Niko, for having me here. And especially thank you, Adam, for not just delivering on a fantastic piece of software, but taking your precious time and talking about it. Thank you.

Yeah, and I totally agree with Max. I mean, thank you very much, guys, that you came over here to tell us about this product. And it's actually a good thing for everyone to know. And, you know, keep up the good work. Thank you very much. And yeah, well, you can find me on Twitter. Sorry, sorry, go

ahead, go ahead. You, you just clipped off a little bit there. Go ahead and tell, tell where people can find more about you.

Yeah, yeah, well, you can find me in Telegram in ConsenSys groups and some of the others, and from Twitter with the nickname CryptoRave. And yeah, that's pretty much about it. Check out the ConsenSys Also for some supporting products. Yeah, thank you very much, guys.

Oh yeah, actually the ConsenSys website is still under maintenance. I hope it will be re-released this week, so I'll be sure to post links on that. And also, as usual, you can find all the panelists' social media links down in the description so you can find them more easily. And I will meet Helsinki, which is this week. I'm super getting super excited about it, especially the second day. And good news is I just got go ahead to actually sell some tickets against Bitcoin on the door. So you can in fact still get the late bird tickets from the door. but only with Bitcoin and only through me. So if you're into, into sound money, if you want to learn about starfish and spider organizations, flat organizations, which is what we are here advocating, at least on ConsenSys, we often talk about this open-source entrepreneurship, which I know Max is also a big advocate of. We're talking about intelligence and AI. We have Mikko Alasara there who's very adept on the topic. We have some workshops, wallet workshops. We actually have Rafael there talking about Bitcoin as the most successful blockchain. It's going to be good stuff. We have Henry Prada from Prasos to talk about the future of money. And we're going to top it off with the Sound Money panel, which will be moderated by yours truly and will be participated by content creators. We are going to have some trainees that are starting with ConsenSys Network. work this week, and we will be having a team on the ground. Hopefully we can get some interviews, post-processing, hopefully something live as well. So definitely stay tuned. And if you want to learn more about this, uh, you can always drop me a line on Telegram. And, uh, yeah, thank you one more time for, for the viewers, for the guests, for the co-hosts, and take care, and we'll see you next week.

Yeah, goodbye.

Bye.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye, peers.