@Genz4BTC - #Bitcoin For Kids Month - A 14-Year-Old's Rabbit Hole Journey. Once BITten 357

All right, we're recording. We're with Ben. How you doing?

Good. How are you?

We're very well. Very well. Thank you. Uh, Lauren is here.

Hi.

Hi, Lauren.

I— did you guys meet in Miami?

No, I did see him walk around though when I was in Saifedean's booth.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yeah, I didn't get to, I didn't get to see you or meet you at all. So sorry we didn't get to cross paths, but how, how was it? Did you have a good time there?

Yeah, I had, I had a really good time. It was a great experience. The atmosphere was amazing. All the people I got to meet was pretty cool and all the opportunities that opened was pretty cool. So I'm very glad I could make it.

How, how did that come about? You, you making, uh, the conference?

So it's actually kind of funny. It's a very long story that all actually goes back to my mom.

Okay. We like long stories, so don't worry. Yeah. Don't, don't rush it.

Okay. So yeah, I'll just start with how I got into Bitcoin.

Sure.

Because that's the original thing. So it all started probably like 2 years ago. My mom was starting to do it because she's always wanted to do it since I was like born. She'd heard of Bitcoin. She thought it was kind of cool. But she was always too, like, scared to fully do it because, like, a long time ago it was, like, dangerous to meet somebody. Well, that's what she told me, and she was scared. So she finally decided to buy some. I think it was like 2 Christmases ago, and it was like her Christmas present. She put, like, money into Bitcoin and learned how to do it all, and she told me about it, but I didn't really care that much. Because I always knew you—

It was like, I was gonna use it for How old were you then?

Probably 11.

Okay.

Or maybe, maybe even 10.

So you are 13, you're 13 now? Yeah.

Yeah. I'm about to turn 14.

All right.

It was, it was like a couple Christmases ago. So yeah. And she told me about it. I didn't really care much about it cuz there was no reason for it. I had it in the back of my mind, like I watched a video or two, but I never got hooked. And then As time went on, she told me about what was happening around the world with the banks. And then the one big thing was the trucking event in Canada, which that like blew my mind. And that's what, that's what like kind of clicked the switch and I started watching videos and that's how I got hooked. And then I saw somebody was sponsored by Bitcoin Miami and I asked my mom about it and she's like, no, it's too expensive. And she was, then she like was doing some thinking and she was like, maybe we could make it. So then she reached out to Greg Foss, like just outta nowhere. She just reached out and said if it was fine if a kid went. And that's how I met him. And he was very nice, helped show me around. But that's how we got to it. And cuz I could get like a student pass.

Oh, awesome. And so Greg was, uh, your chaperone, was he at the, uh,

yeah. Yeah. It was pretty cool.

Did your mom go too? Yep.

Oh, awesome. She was around with me.

Excellent. All right, Lauren. Well, do, do you have any questions? Well, you guys are almost, well, you, you're kind of the same age, so you are 12, you're 13 in January and you are 14. So yeah, there's probably 2 years, 2 years, 2 years between you.

Yep.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

What is your favorite thing about Bitcoin?

Yeah, that's a, so my favorite thing about Bitcoin is that it's probably not owned by any government or group. That just like always blew my mind that the people control it completely and you don't have to run it through any other processor app or anything to transact. Like it's literally like giving somebody physical item, like hand-to-hand, but it's online and it's crazy how they got to doing that. That's my favorite part about it.

Yeah, we love that. What did you have any other questions up your sleeve? Why should teenagers or tweenagers care about Bitcoin? Like that, that's something that I don't think a lot of kids really give too much thought to.

Of course.

Especially, especially those ones that are just getting pocket money each week for doing nothing.

What?

Which you don't get. 'Cause you guys are always like, what? Give us pocket money.

No, say that. I, I, when I was doing my money master thing with my

class, right?

Excuse you. Trying to make me look bad.

No, but it has been a discussion before that you, you do have your other friends that just get pocket money, right?

Yeah.

Each week?

Not each week, but—

Oh, each month, whatever.

Yeah. I, my, some of my friends have that too. So like when I try to explain something, they say, I don't care. It doesn't matter. 'Cause they literally get money each month for doing nothing and can go spend it at Busch Gardens or on shoes and on food.

Mm-hmm.

And don't have to worry about anything. And I think it's important that Teenagers learn about it early on so they know there's another option of money before they fall into the debt trap of America and get into something they don't know what they're doing. I don't know how to say that, but—

Yeah. Well, if you think about it, pocket money is social welfare. Pocket money is universal basic income. And a lot of parents fall into the trap of being shamed by the social construct around them Oh, you've got to give little Timmy some pocket money, you know, so he can go out and buy his toxic sugary sweets every week and his soda pops. And I'm, I've always thought, why? Like, that makes no sense at all. Maybe if they loaded the dishwasher, maybe if they cut the lawn, maybe if they washed the car, maybe if they did a few chores.

Yeah. Proof of work.

Yeah, exactly.

They made it, they earned the money. Doing physical work in the real world. Yeah, that's important.

Yeah. Sorry. Um, actually some kids do get money for that.

Yeah, they do. Yeah. And that's fine if they're, if they're actually, and even then there's a blurred line, uh, because sometimes you just clear the table because you're part of the family and somebody else made dinner, right? You don't expect to get paid for that.

Exactly. Yeah.

But if you're going above and beyond and actually adding value, then you should be rewarded for that and rewarded in the best money known to man.

Bitcoin. Okay.

How would you feel, how would you feel, Ben, if you spent like 4 hours mowing the lawn and then someone tried to pay you in fiat money?

I mean, if it was a random person, If I'm gonna be completely honest, I wouldn't really care cuz I know I can just go switch it to Bitcoin.

Right.

Like, I wouldn't expect a random person to pay me in Bitcoin, but cuz I know I can just literally go home and give me, give my mom the cash and then just get the Bitcoin. It's one of my wallets, so I wouldn't care that much. Eventually it would be a goal to be normal, to be paid in Bitcoin. That would be really cool. But we're not quite there yet. We're getting there though.

Yeah. And you can force the change, which is great, right? If you go knocking around your neighborhood and saying, oh, I will wash your car, I will mow your lawn, I will rake your leaves or whatever it is depending on what season, but you have to pay me in Bitcoin. The person that really needs that service is then forced to start learning about Bitcoin. Why is this kid the only one on the block that's willing to do any work? One, But will only do the jobs if I pay him in Bitcoin. That's a touchpoint for the community.

Yeah, touchpoint. But I, to be honest, I don't think as many will do it as you think because one, they're too busy to even think about anything. And two, they're just kind of like, oh, Bitcoin, isn't that a scam and everything? Like they'll kind of like brush it off. But I think some people might do it and I mean, at least it's some, not none.

Yeah, it's not going to happen overnight, but it's a touchpoint. So look what's happened now. Simon, who fixes our car, whenever our car goes wrong, Simon accepts Bitcoin.

Yeah.

It's taken 3, 4 years, but it happened.

Yeah.

So how did your mom first Start learning about it. Has she told you her rabbit hole story and how she—

So she's been wanting— she told me, I've like heard her say this a thousand times since I was born, like 2009. She'd been wanting to get into it, like even when it was first made and was hearing a lot about it. But she was always too scared. It was like, I remember she told me there was one time She actually was about to meet somebody in a McDonald's parking lot and give them like $500 to get some Bitcoin. Then she canceled like 10 minutes before because she was worried to meet a stranger and give them $500.

They were shady. They were shady times in the Bitcoin world. Yeah. I would like to know then how your mom has been helping you understand, what resources has she been using to help you understand About Bitcoin?

So are you talking about like right now or like whenever I was getting into, into it, like the first time?

The first time. How did she start like bringing that up? What, what was the first time?

Very first time she just told me whenever I would walk out, like, I remember it was like Christmas break, I think every single second I'd walk outta my room playing video games, walk out to her watching something about Bitcoin. And she'd be like, Benjamin, this is really important. You should watch a video that I send you. We should try to start to understand this. This is gonna be the future. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just thought it was some random thing. And then that happened like the whole Christmas break. And then I've like watched a couple videos and I kinda had an idea of what it was, but I didn't understand how it worked.

Do you remember what those videos were?

No, cuz those are not what hooked me. Those ones. Yeah, I have no clue. They were some random, random little videos probably. But the one that did a really good job, I forgot what it's called. That sucks. My mom talked about it all the time and I could literally ask my mom right now cuz I told her it was like a whole entire I like really long movie-like videos. Yeah. Or videos that are really visual and set off lots of cues in my mind and are constantly like showing stuff in graphs and easy things to understand visually. 'Cause then I can remember those a lot easier than just a bunch of words or in a book. 'Cause one thing about me that not a lot of people know is that I have an auditory processing disorder. That like would always slow me down in school. And it isn't that I'm deaf or I can't hear well, it's that my brain doesn't always process or put together the words in my head. So like that can make it hard for me to, like, even while I'm reading, it can, if I'm like saying the words in my head, sometimes I'll like just be reading through and I'll like forget that I'm reading or something. Or I'll be listening to a teacher talk and I'll like have to ask them to repeat the question or whatever. And then whenever I'm watching videos, sometimes I'll have to replay 'em like 4 times for me to un— like I can hear the words, but I can't understand and put 'em together into a sentence sometimes.

All right. So you figured out, you figured out how you learn. Very few people ever do that.

Yeah, I think lots of people could benefit from that cuz it's the easiest way to learn, like My grandma learns the same way apparently. When I tried to explain it to her, whenever I tried to explain it in words, she was like, I have no clue what you're talking about, dude. Whenever I literally just looked up what is Bitcoin and showed her some of like the first things that popped up, I can't remember on the top of my head, so I don't wanna get 'em wrong, but just the first documentaries, the good ones, and then she could understand it perfectly fine. So I think that's important. That's cool.

So there, there are some Bitcoin documentaries out there that were, you know, key to your understanding of Bitcoin. I'd love to know what they are. So, yeah, I can, you know, if you want to yell at mom, you go for it because—

She's not home right now. She's actually at work.

Okay, no problem. But you can DM me once you have them and then I can put them in the show notes because anything to help other people fall down the rabbit hole and If it's helped you, then it's bound to help some, some others. What about you? What do you like watching? What have you kind of been able to pick up from your journey in the Bitcoin rabbit hole doing this podcast?

What was that little girl that did the news reports?

Oh, that was adorable. Oh, what was her name? I'm blanking on her name. Uh, welcome to Lily's show. Lily. Yeah. Did you ever see Lily?

Um, I don't think so. I'm not connecting the dots.

Okay. So she's only, say, 3 years of age and her— yeah, she, I, she's probably 4 or 5 now, but when she was doing this, She was 3 years of age and I believe, I hope I'm getting this right, but Jan Pritzker, who's the CTO at Swan, it's his cousin, I believe, maybe brother, I can't remember, but a family relation who's also down the rabbit hole, was making little like news shows with his daughter, but he would splice them up and edit them and whatever else. And the way they did it, they, he would have Lily ask some questions, And then he would send the video and the questions to Jack Mallers and Michael Saylor.

Yeah, she was in particular, she was,

she

had some great guests. She had Saylor on, like.

And then they had these guys explaining Bitcoin to a 3-year-old, which was great for us because Lauren started this pod with me when she was 9. And with every interview we've had, She asks the first question and that forces the guest to respond to a 9-year-old and explain Bitcoin to her as if she was 9. And yeah, I think those answers are so helpful to a wider audience, not just the kids. So yeah, I'd love to know what those documentaries are that you got to see. And there are so many coming out now. Yeah,

there's a lot coming out now.

Mm-hmm. And I'm looking forward to, to watching them all.

Yeah. Documentaries, um, the Bitcoin ones I find very interesting, but you only show me the video and I don't see the names, so I don't really know any of them.

Yeah. Well, Thomas' one was Generate, uh, Generational Wealth. Which was a good one.

So what about— I think I lost all of them.

Yeah.

I mean, didn't mention what.

So what about now? What, I mean, if you are in the rabbit hole, you're in the rabbit hole. If you are anything like me or any other Bitcoiner I've ever spoken to, you're thinking about Bitcoin 24/7. How are you getting your information? Who do you like to follow? What, what, what's the best outlet for you?

Yeah, so one thing I do on like the daily or most of the time if I'm not in sports is watch the Twitter Spaces, those Twitter Spaces, and listen to Greg Foss or like just all the people talk on Toxic Happy Hour and what's the other one called? That was called

Cafe Bitcoin, maybe.

Yeah, Cafe Bitcoin. I watch both of those normally, just chill, and they'll always start talking about some really complicated stuff that I don't quite understand. Then I can go look up videos on that. But yeah, I just like to stay in. I set up a Nostr account, so I'm gonna start trying to post on that and seeing how well I can do on that. And yeah, I just And I watch random videos that pop up on my YouTube.

Mm-hmm.

Too. They're just like, I just try to keep the flow cuz I gotta balance it with lots of sports. Okay.

Yeah.

I'm playing 2 sports. I want like 6 hours of sports a day, more like 8 or 9.

Whoa. So is there, is there school for you or no school?

Right now there's no school. We go back in August.

Okay. So generally you're at school each day.

In a school day, I have, wait, what'd you ask?

But you're generally at school each day during term time?

Well, yeah, during, during the school year, I'm at school 5 days a week for 8 hours is the actual school, 8 and a half. And then I have 3 hours of practice after. So then I'm out till like 6:30 and then I don't get home till like 7:30. And then normally I have to stay with my mom. till later, till she finishes working. So it's a full day. So I just try to like fit in my reading during school and stuff. That's what I did, like right leading up to the conference. I was just reading and reading and reading.

What, what were you reading?

The Bitcoin Standard was one that I read like the first 180 pages, and then I started reading another book. That's, I can't, I'm not good at finishing long, long books.

Yeah.

But I got like the basics down, the base down of it. And I really liked The Bitcoin Standard because of how it explained the history of money.

Mm-hmm.

And it was a very, even though it wouldn't have pictures, it was very visual in my mind how they explained it and how there was like graphs that I could imagine that I can like still remember the graphs that I made while I was reading it. That can help explain a lot to me. So anything that sets off visual cues, I like. I forgot, I have a book that's in my room that I've been reading that has lots of little graphs and stuff. This isn't part of Bitcoin, but I enjoyed reading Rich Dad Poor Dad.

Mm-hmm.

That had lots of gra— graphs, and that's really what set me off on money itself. Mm-hmm. And that's probably The reason why I got into Bitcoin as well is 'cause I read that like a bit ago, like probably a year before I got fully into Bitcoin. So I knew there was something up. I just wasn't committed enough to fully go into the rabbit hole.

Yeah. Kiyosaki's done a great job of orange pilling a lot of people, but not himself, which is kind of crazy. I mean, I know he talks about stacking Bitcoin, but he hasn't He hasn't become a maxi and he clearly has a little bit more extra work to do, or there is too much baggage pegged to that personality that he's built up around his original book that he's unwilling to let go of. But yeah, I understand. Yeah. You see a lot of that and a lot of people that have been around for a little while In the fiat market side of things. Yeah.

They're scared of change.

Yeah, exactly. So what, what sports are you playing? What's keeping you so busy each day?

So I'm doing football and wrestling right now, and I have football lifting and wrestling lifting, and then there's conditioning for both the sports and there's also practice for both of the sports. So I'm doing 2 sports during the summer, the whole, so like I have a full day, like a normal day that I would have at school. But, um, I just am doing sports the whole day and then I sneak in to get food or go somewhere to get food in between. And I'm just out the whole day getting carpooled around, doing different sports and lifting.

Are you finding anybody else of your age in your sports groups or of your class years at school that are thinking the way you are thinking about Bitcoin and money?

No, actually there's been nobody that's cared enough. There's some people, so like there's some people that are really judgmental and like try to shame me for it, but like I really don't take it personally. Like I kind of like laugh at them. It's not a big deal. They weren't taught anything and they just probably just scared that I know something they don't. And then there's people that are like, oh yeah, I know, that's cool. I've heard stuff about it. Like if I convince them to buy some, I probably could, but they aren't like hooked into it. 'Cause it's gonna, 'cause the kids my age aren't at the age yet, I think. Like the target age, which I think is gonna be more towards like 14 to like 25 to maybe like 16 or 25, like whenever they're getting their first job and actually having to pay for gas and having to pay for their insurance, their car insurance is when it's gonna really matter. And then when they get their first job and have to pay for everything, I think that's when it's gonna matter that they know their money and their time is being devalued as it just sits there.

Yeah, I, um, I don't really think you could really orange pill that many little kids. Like, when I say little kids, I mean like tweens and like young teens. I mean, you orange pilled me, but you, you, um, and other, and other parents have orange pilled their kids, but that was when they were young or they, they're around them every single day. But if you're just their friend, Then, and their parents aren't, aren't, well, Bitcoiners, I think it would be really hard to get them to learn about Bitcoin until, like you said, until they have a job or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you, what do your friends say to you, Lauren, when you—

They shrug it off.

Yeah.

Yeah. And since I know my friends doesn't really like me talking about it, I just don't really Talk anything about it. And one of my friends is really young. I can make friends with so many different ages, and one of my best friends is 8. Um, but, um, she's just kind of, she's at the age where she doesn't, all she wants to do is just play. So I can't, and she does, she doesn't really like talking as much.

So. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I don't, I don't really bring up. Bitcoin is.

Yeah. I think that's like, okay, actually for like, I don't think it should be forced at all. 'Cause a kid is a kid. They're still going to school. They should still have drama. They should still have like a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever and have sports. But I just think they should be conscious that there's another option and be ready for when it happens. So like, they don't need to be fully into the rabbit 'cause how are they even gonna buy Bitcoin if they don't have money or a steady cash flow? But I think Being informed about it is the important thing, or knowing that what it is so that when like the time does come, they can easily go to it and be ready.

Yeah.

Which is where I think you guys play a very important role with your consistency. Uh, if you do stop talking about it completely, then they're just going to believe that, ah, haha. I was right. He's not in Bitcoin anymore. She doesn't do Bitcoin anymore because like my parents told me, it's all a scam. But by turning up each week, delivering the tiniest of touchpoints, whatever it is, then it's always there. It's a constant and it might take 2, 3, 4 years, but 4 years down the line, well, in 4 years' time for you, your friend's going to be 17, 18. And now all of a sudden, hey, hang on a minute. He's been talking about Bitcoin like our whole student career. He's not been shoving it down my neck, but he's always been there with the touchpoints. And every time we've got into a conversation about something, he's got something intelligent to say on the opposing side of the narrative that we are being told without being pushy, without being belligerent. But he was always there. He was always consistent. And that is so important to deliver those messages and those touchpoints. Yeah. And you get that. You, you, you understand consistency with your, your training and your sports.

Yeah. If you're not doing something consistently and dedicatedly, if that even is a word, um, it won't, it won't have a long-term effect. To your like mental state or how you think. Because if you do something long enough, it'll change the way you see the world. So that's the idea, is just kind of not jam it in their brain, but just like allow it to kind of soak in. And then like maybe when they go to the mall and they have to buy stuff, the more they'll start to deal with money as they get older and older, they'll realize, oh, I'm only earning $7 an hour. That's a lot of time I have to work a week to literally go out and get Chick-fil-A. And then they'll just start to realize that fiat money isn't really the fairest system. And then the way that debt works, and then that the way that they teach us in school how it works. So it's like we're destined to be doomed as soon as you get out of school and go into college and buy your first book. Or whatever it's called, first course.

Were you aware that if you, let's say you get to 18 and you decide you wanna start a business rather than go to college and you apply for a loan for that business, do you have any idea how much you might get for, for that business to start?

Yeah. I don't know exact numbers. I know it's not a lot. Until you have, like, I don't know how, I don't even know how all that works.

And you would get anywhere, if you were lucky, you'd get anywhere between $5,000 to $10,000 from a bank for you to go and start an entrepreneurial pursuit. But if you applied to go to a university and for a student loan, how much would you get? Hundreds of thousands.

Yeah. And then it's impossible to pay it back. Right.

So right there, the system's rigged straight against you.

That's it. That's it.

Yeah. Trying to help people understand how they're playing and walking blindly into a rigged system.

Yeah.

Into a trap is really very, very important.

I actually need to say that to Kate then, because I try. Yeah.

Yeah. Then my oldest daughter is almost 18. She's 18 next month and we're constantly having battles because she's— so these 3, the other, my other 3 kids, they're homeschooled. But my oldest one, she wanted to go to school and get her certificates and whatever else. So of course she's been taught Keynesian economics, Keynesian philosophy, Keynesian this, that, and the other thing. And we have discussions at the dinner table where I offer the opposing view to the state narrative. And it gets pretty spicy, doesn't it?

Don't want to be around.

But if I weren't there as a sounding board and bouncing ideas back at her, then this is how we shape society. Everybody thinking and acting in the same way is good for who? It's not good for us. The collective think it's good for the collective. That's why collectivists are so easy to, you know, wave a magic wand and they all do the same thing at the same time. Whereas having free-thinking people, critical-thinking people, like clearly you are yourself, We need more. And I don't know how we break the mold of this state-schooled, roboticized nation-state that we currently find ourselves in.

Yeah. So that's a really good statement. One, this is just a big idea. Like, I don't want to be like judgmental or whatever, but I think that Bitcoin future or the near future, so like the next 50 years, won't be the only currency in any country. Like it won't be the thing that's used only, but I think it'll be a backup currency that basically is the checks and balances of the whole world and make sure the country isn't being unfair. 'Cause then their citizens could go and literally just not use their currency and avoid taxes if it came to that. Like they, there's the ability to do it, which couldn't I get why it could scare governments at first and want them to ban it, but there's a reason why we're going to another currency so desperately and not using theirs, because it's flawed and messed up for the average human. Because I feel like when people see, or at least whenever I used to watch like the movies about like the American dream of how you could Come here, get a, like a business degree, or you could like get a profession and work and earn a good amount of money, like pay for a whole family in a nice house with land with an average job. I always thought, oh, that's so cool. All I have to do is work hard and study in college, just read books, and then I get money after. And then I, whenever I learned it's not, As simple as that. It's not actually a straight line. Then that's when I really realized that like everybody's like way of thinking about how like money moves around the world and let alone America, of how it's moved through the banks so like secretly, but yet everybody just doesn't know about it. I think it's like just Mind-blowing that not other people know about it and aren't trying to change it.

What, what lessons have you had in school so far with regards to economics or financial awareness or just—

Yeah. You ready? This is a big, big number. Zero.

You are kidding.

I'm going to 9th grade. I've learned more about money in history than anything else. World history. I learned about how they traded stones thousands of years ago, which, I mean, that's important, but I mean, like, we haven't learned anything in relativity to our money now. Like, they're not trying to teach us about money now. In history, they may have taught us about, like, the first paper dollars that were made, like, thousands of years ago or whatever, but they, it's not like they're trying to inform us about that so we could learn about now. They're just telling us that for a lesson about something.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I've talked to my history teacher. I was actually like close with my history teacher. She was really cool and she was one of the people who understood Bitcoin and let me talk to her about it. And she was like really cool. And it, I think it was 'cause she understood how money worked in the past and the effects it had on different civilizations. So I don't know why we're not taught, like we're taught about all about the wars. And all like the treaties and stuff, but we're not taught about all the financial decisions that affected how that have, like how countries have became so big and powerful. So I think that's just as important as who like won the battle versus who was smarter financially. That's just my opinion.

Yeah. They had, history is written by the winners, right? And, um, More, or history is written by those that own the education system.

Yeah. And that they're able to manipulate.

They write the agenda, they write the curriculum. They then, so I think a history teacher's a perfect example of somebody that is lit up inside by learning, by history, by studying history and then teaching it. And Give that person, that person who was born to be a mentor, a class of people, they could deliver incredible lessons. Incredible. But they're not allowed to. They're only allowed to deliver what they're told to and at the timeline they're told to and to the age group that they're told to deliver that to. And it is crippling for the teacher. It's completely crippling. And that's why you get disinterested teachers. Yeah.

I've almost seen around.

Yep.

Yeah. And disinterested students.

Mm-hmm.

Most of them, I know a lot of students that hate history. Um, but I know a lot of people that like history, but for many different reasons. And probably because the teacher probably tells the, the history that they're not interested in and the history they don't know enough about and is boring to them. So they just become boring and then they hit, and then the students Find the teacher boring and then it's just boring for everyone.

Yeah. You have a negative feedback loop in the classroom.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's, that's a big thing. So one big, history is probably my favorite class other than like PE, of course. So I had world history, so I didn't learn anything about like anything recent. I learned about all the ancient stuff and my teacher was a really good teacher in my opinion, cuz like She gave us like freedom. We were, we were allowed to ask any questions as long as it wasn't like inappropriate questions. And she would answer 'em and just go on about talking about them. Like she was definitely more free and open as long as we stayed around the guidelines. Like we would watch movies all the time that had just a little bit to do and we would just like write stuff down. It was a very open class. Anybody could ask. And even on like the football players that normally hate history and like hate stuff. We're all asking questions. 'Cause who doesn't want to know about somebody that got like arrowed in the back and there's like drawings of it. And she was a good teacher about visualizing it and making kids involved. And that's what I think we should do about trying to teach about Bitcoin.

Mm-hmm.

Is like, yeah, make them involved and not just tell them words, tell them why and how and visualize all of it.

Yeah. School isn't only bad because of the dreading hours and waking up at 6:00 AM in the morning. Going to like 4 or 5 or even like 6 sometimes. Um, it's also the teachers. Teachers, like, like I said, they get bored and they, they are not helpful in a lot of schools, but there are some just really, really amazing teachers that help a lot, that give you interest. Um, I know my sister, one of my sisters was really interested in history or Geography or something, and then they had this horrible geography or history teacher and then they hated it after that.

Yeah, I understand that. That happened with one of my math classes, but I still like math. Yeah. Even more now.

Yeah.

I think it's not fair that the teachers can like shape your opinions about stuff that much. Cuz like when I hate when they don't allow you to ask questions, like last year. I had a history teacher, but it was, it was a civics teacher actually. So that I learned about American government and like the recent history about how America became how it is and how the laws were decided. I don't remember most of it cuz her class was like really boring. We would have to write really long stuff. And I remember I was asking her about money cuz I was always interested in it. And she would just get annoyed at me and was always in like a really bad mood. I remember, and I didn't have a pleasant time in that class, even though the, the subject was kind of boring, but it definitely could have been made not as boring. 'Cause like, I don't remember anything from that class except for not having a good time. Yeah. Unlike my recent history class that even though some of the subjects are really boring, if the teacher is like excited about it. They can make other people excited about it and happy.

I got a question. How do you think Bitcoin is going to affect you in regards to the sports you play? Have you ever thought about how Bitcoin—

Yeah, I have. Yeah, I have a little bit. So you mean like, so as a hobby, sports as a hobby, And I think Bitcoin is gonna be my life. Like, or like sports have been my life pretty much for like the last 3 years. I've been playing high school sports since 6th grade. So like, that's been a really big part of my life, but I know sports won't always be a part of my life, only till the end of high school, which is like just like 6 years of my life. And I know Bitcoin and money and the people I meet during that will always be a part of my life. So I think the time ever comes that I have to stop playing sports or stop one of my seasons, that'll be okay. 'Cause I've had a great time playing with them and I'll still like check on, check on like my family and stuff. 'Cause they're all like family to me. I've known 'em for a really long time. And if I do have to stop, I'm fine with stopping. 'Cause I know Bitcoin is my life and sports is just a hobby that's supposed to help. Like form my way of seeing the world and hard work.

You think, how much do you think would change if your, your current football coach, when you say football, you're talking throwing the ball, right? Not like we do in the UK where we, yeah, in Europe where—

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm talking about American football.

NFL, right? Okay. Just, just to clarify for the, uh, the viewers and the listeners, but if, let's just say your, your current coach was Replaced with a total Bitcoin maximalist, but excellent NFL football coach. How do you think his approach would be different to a fiat football coach?

Okay. That, that's a strange question, but I think his way of explaining like how your work gets rewarded. Would be different and how consistency, I mean, that's a strange question. I think, I think I would be able to explain it more in wrestling terms.

Okay. Try that. Yeah. Let's switch to wrestling. Yeah. What, what would be, yeah.

Wrestling is a lot more, way harder and more mental. So let's just say coach would always say, eat consistently the whole year. Really, really healthy, as in like a full diet the whole year. And that's not fun for high schoolers. Like, trust me.

Yeah.

They're going to like parties and stuff. Like absolutely no extra food. I mean, and I feel like that's what a fiat coach would say is expect to only win. Ex— expect to only do like your best. And if you don't, you'll be shamed and like bad upon. And I think Bitcoin coach would know their ups and downs and would tell them to have a more proportional like graph of increase in skill and power. And their, the work ethic would probably be different in the room and how that works. I don't know if they would talk about the actual subject that much, but how they See the world would be different for both of them, probably. Yeah,

there'd definitely be a different approach with time preference, for example. Yeah. Would be the first and foremost thing that I could think of. But lowering your time preference, as we know, touches everything, right? It would touch the way you train. It would touch the way you move, the way you wrestle, the way you think about scoring points, the way you eat, the way you sleep.

Yeah, I get what you mean. I feel like the— wait, so having a high time preference is thinking really far ahead, right?

No, other way around. So high time preference is like, get out there and win that at all costs. Sweep the leg, Johnny. You know, like that, that's the— Yeah.

And then the low time preference is, it's fine if we lose this game, but we're gonna win the whole season.

Yeah.

Yes. That actually makes a lot of sense. I think that would be a really big thing because some people are too stuck on the next day and some people are too stuck on the next year. There's both. You need to find a balance in between about doing what's now and like preparation for what's in the future, but still like enjoying and living your life for the now. It's a very good question though, because that brings up a lot with my sports.

I think about it all the time and I do, I do, because sports have become so fiat driven. You know, look at the money that is hung over these athletes' heads now and look at the incentive structure that, that, how can Ronaldo go and play football for a team in Saudi Arabia for $50 million, right? This makes no sense. But he's, and so he's gone off and done it and he's doing that and, you know, whatever. But that fiat carrot, and now he's selling NFTs on Binance. Yeah. You know, like this nonsensical fiat world makes no sense. So what I like, what I can't wait to see, and it's not happening yet, it's going to take a long time, but as you know, well, you, if you don't know Peter McCormack, he has bought the local football team, soccer team in his town in the UK. Now that doesn't mean that the coach is orange-pilled, and that certainly doesn't mean that any of the players are orange-pilled.

Tried though.

Yet, yet, but they won the league and now they're going to start moving up. And it's my belief that over time, the coach will be retained. And he will become orange-pilled and the time preference will be lowered. And the, yeah, the, the fiat incentives will be gone and the low time preference will be baked in. The proof of work will be baked in the, you know, taking a block at a time will be baked in. And with that, you'll have a much more cohesive team, less prone to injury. And less prone to doing stupid shit on the pitch because of, you know, that they know that they don't have to live in that one, one second. Tick tock, next block. Proof of work.

Yeah, that makes, that's, that's a good point. Not being like stupid for getting one point and risking like injury.

And how often do you see that? How often do you see that in NFL, man? I mean, like, like

NFL's great. I feel like NFL is really different from high school because NFL is only driven by money, not even the actual sport. So even if somebody did get injured, they'll still have money for the rest of their life, whether it's fiat or not, because there's so much like people who are watching it, like in the NFL. Like, I don't, I don't even watch the NFL, if I'm being honest. I play football and I don't watch it. 'Cause I just, I think it's stupid. Mm-hmm. Kinda. I think it's too much to keep track of, but I just know there's so much money. There's no point of even like trying to compete and play with that. 'Cause it's really all just a big business and a show like WWE. Mm-hmm. That's how I think of the way it is put on and how you buy the players. Like, I don't know. I, I don't watch it that much.

So how do you think you'll, how do you think you'll end up working in Bitcoin?

What?

What, what do you think you'll do when, when you're a little bit older and working in Bitcoin?

I want to go around educating and teaching about how to teach, 'cause that's one big thing I've been able to recognize 'cause I had big trouble with Learning, not cuz I was stupid, just because processing it is different for a lot of people. And I need to bring it down towards like explaining it to a 5-year-old, but then it just clicks.

Mm-hmm.

Super easy. So I think like maybe even in the near future, whenever I get a little bit older, like I would like to travel and be able to go to conferences and speak about having parents like teach their kids about it. Mm-hmm. And maybe even having kids teach their parents about it. Like both of them, 'cause I think it's like a two-way thing. If a kid plays video games and understands trading skins that are worth money back and forth to each other, they could definitely understand trading Bitcoin. And that's not the same for parents 'cause some parents are scared of the change and are worried, even if they know it's not bad or illegal, they'll just put any possible thing to block it outta their head. Yeah. 'Cause they're worried that it's Gonna take over and everything's gonna be different.

Yeah.

Well, we want to see you at conferences, man, for sure. Well, we were just in Prague and Lauren, why don't you tell Ben? Because you hosted a panel in Prague.

Yeah, I hosted a panel in Prague with Joe Hall and

Giacomo Zucco.

Yeah, Giacomo. And yeah, it went pretty well. It was really fun, really funny. Joe who wore tutu? It's on YouTube, actually.

It is.

It is. Yeah. Like the only way I found it was BTC Prague Lauren Prince panel 2023. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's.

Yep. But it was so well received. By the one, the crowd, but two, when we came off the stage there, Joe and Giacomo were lit up. They're like, why aren't we doing more of this? This is crazy. Like, look how many people were listening. Look at the interaction of the crowd and look at the questions that were asked because the questions were asked by a 12-year-old and, you know, it was called Explain Bitcoin to me like I'm 12. It opened up a whole new kind of brain pattern thinking process to answer that question as it would've done if you'd have answered an adult that was on stage. If I was, if I had gone up and asked the same questions, I'd have got stock answers most likely that they've answered 100 times before. But because, yeah, a kid, so there's definitely a place for you to do that. If you, if you are comfortable to, to go up and host panels and ask the questions, then I guarantee you Bitcoin maxis, the people that are there will accept you and will certainly be more than comfortable going up on stage and, and answering your questions.

Yeah, sorry. I think it should be like a kids conference. I mean, like kids host panels and like the kids do the speaking. That'd be fun.

All right guys, organize it.

Yeah, it could be like a part of a, a part, you know how in, I was Bitcoin Miami, they had the women's in Bitcoin thingy.

Mm-hmm.

One night we could just have like a kids in Bitcoin thingy and just a small part and have kids speak and just, it, it can even be young adults really, like anybody that's beneath like the age of 25. That are young and in college or in high school can go and be around other people. 'Cause there won't be that many at first, but if we do stuff like that, more people who are not sure about it will be like, oh yeah, that'll be fun to go out there. 'Cause it's very, it's like, say a kid that their parents weren't like whole Bitcoin maxis, like they knew about it, right? They supported their kid. But say a kid wanted to go out to a conference like that, it's kind of Scary to think about it. Just a bunch of people you don't know going with just like your mom or your dad could be kind of scary. And I think if there was something that the kids could be involved in, just, just one night, that's all you need. That's the only reason you need to go. And then you could meet them, meet more friends and stuff, and be in the environment of kids that are all going through the same education system at the same point in time.

They were going through the same hell.

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

Yeah. Their parents. So your dad says this, that it, oh my God. Yeah. You would have no idea. That's what you and Sam were doing about me and Ben. Are you sure?

Yeah.

There's a handful of kids now that are turning up at the conferences. My 4 have been along. We'll be off to the UK in a, in 2 weeks' time. For the Bitcoin Adventure Weekend. That's a big family affair. That's a great one.

Lots of family.

Then we'll be Biarritz. We go to Biarritz every year. There's all 4 kids come along to that one. You're generally the only kids there though. There's not been too many others.

Really? Last time.

But I know Riga, there are more kids coming.

Riga.

Yeah. Knut's going to bring his family.

And Sam's going.

And Sam. Yeah. Sam Duvall, the Bitcoin Kid, who Who also presented on stage. She presented on stage straight after Saylor's keynote. I mean, talk about bravery. Like, let's just get up there.

Second or third one too. It was—

Her, that was her second, her second one. Second time.

So yeah.

Yeah. So it's, it's happening. And the more families that we can have, believe me, from a father's point of view, I know it was in your case, it was your mom. That got you into Bitcoin. In many cases, it's the dad that falls down the rabbit hole for whatever reason first, and then becomes the crazy guy within the family and becomes pretty lonely because now all of a sudden his family think he's crazy. And then his whole network of colleagues and peers think he's crazy, and all of his old age friends from school think he's crazy. Just like that overnight, you're lonely as hell.

And crazy.

And crazy. And you have to question yourself very, very deeply. Am I doing the right thing? You're actually just trying to protect your wealth and look after your family and the generations that follow you. And most people around you are telling you you're completely nuts. So to have families present These events would be so huge and so helpful on so many different levels.

But it's crazy.

It's sorry.

Um, sorry. Um, that's crazy. Um, people try and orange pill their, their children at 2 months. It's, it's, it's, it's not how it works though.

Yeah.

Wait, you mean 2 months old?

Yeah.

Oh yeah,

that's, I don't think that would really work.

Yeah.

It's the effort that counts.

Any baby, any babies born into a Bitcoin maximalist family are Bitcoiners. Let's put it that way.

Bitcoin maximalists the day they're born. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Well, yeah, that's what Sam said in her talk at Adopting Bitcoin. Bitcoin adopted her because she was born into it. And, you know, going forward, this is, you know, that's why I'm so bullish on families and Bitcoin. All right, Ben, we better let you get on because you've probably got much more to be doing today, but—

There's one question I have.

Go on.

Are you guys going to Pacific Bitcoin?

We are not. No. October is crazy for us, but are you going to be there?

I'm going to try. I don't know right now. I don't have, Like money to get there right now, but I'll be mowing lawns and stuff and work on it. And I probably could find a way to get there somehow. I was just wondering because I'll meet you guys at some point.

Yeah, you certainly will. You certainly will. Where do you live? Are you close to the West Coast? Florida. Okay. So you got to get up, you got to get all the way over to the West Coast. So how much are the flights out there?

Probably a 2-way trip. Round trip would probably be like $350 a ticket. I could be completely wrong on this, actually. I don't even want to answer this because I don't know.

You don't know. All right.

Well, I just know it's a lot of money for me since I don't have a job.

Yeah. Let's, let's work on getting you there. I'll speak to the Swan guys and get them, you know, to reach out to see if they would offer you a ticket at the very least for you and your mom.

That would be really amazing.

Do you have— is it both your parents would be interested in going? Brother, sister?

It would be probably just my mom and my grandma would stay with my brother because my brother is a little bit special and is still too young to try to understand all that stuff. So my grandma would just stay with my brother and it would just be me and my mom.

Okay, well, I'll see what happens.

Pretty cool. Yeah, I just want to get out. And get exposed to more information and try to push out kids is important too, to more people.

Well, you'd work at the conference, right? You'd be happy to host a panel or something?

Yeah, that would be super cool. Oh, okay.

Well, it's not like you're offering your time. It's not like you're begging for tickets. So you're offering your time so you can add value in a big way to this conference.

Yeah, that's one of the goals I had. It was to go and speak about Kids eventually. But I just know I can't get to every conference yet 'cause I have school and my mom has to work. Oh, and I'm a child who can't travel around the world by myself yet. But that, that would be a goal is to just be helping as many people as possible.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause this is a thing, this Bitcoin is a thing we have to do together. You can't go out and be wealthy in Bitcoin by yourself. I feel like that's just, nobody does that. I think I feel like Bitcoin is very open. and friendly thing to join is really, I've never experienced somebody that was mean, if I'm being honest. I don't think of it. It's okay.

Go ahead. I think you are a true Bitcoiner if you say, I want to help people. I want to help people learn about Bitcoin. That's when you know you're a true Bitcoiner.

Mm-hmm.

But I thought we were all toxic.

No.

But, you know, all the crypto bros say we're toxic maximalists.

Yeah, but they're the crypto bros. We don't care about those ones, daddy.

Don't

be

toxic.

Oops. Oh well.

They're just Bitcoiners that don't know it yet. They're just confused.

Exactly.

All right. Do you want to ask Ben our final question?

Your question.

My question. So yeah, so don't screw it up.

Let's see if I remember. Okay. Um, okay. If, if there was one—

If you had—

If you had an orange—

One—

One orange pill—

Left—

Left—

To give—

To give, who would you give it to and why? And why?

You nailed that.

Thank you.

So you're saying if I have one pill, I wanna immediately orange pill somebody. Yeah. They have the orange pill for the rest of their life. Who would I give it to?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, bro, actually that's a really good question. I have no clue. One left. Yeah. I mean, I would wanna say somebody like rich that has a lot of influence, but then that's only one. Person, or I could say like a family member or something, but then that's, I could already do that. I don't know, maybe like somebody that just has wealth and power. I mean, I wouldn't even say the president. I would say like somebody else, like Elon is already kind of, maybe. Yeah, I have no clue. That's gonna happen. Like, yeah, that's, I, I don't even have somewhat of an answer. My grand— how about my grandpa? My grandpa. I'll go with my grandpa.

All right. Love it. That's nice. And don't— there's no right or wrong answer. It's just a fun question and a nice little thought experiment.

It's a very challenging question. Yeah.

Very. Yes. All right. Well, how can people reach out to you, man, if they want to come and say hi?

So yeah, you can see me on Twitter @GenZ. For BTC. And, uh, I'm on Nostr too, which my— to connect on there too, it's already on my Twitter. My email's on my Twitter as well if you want to reach me. And my mom is also running my email, so don't worry if you're an adult or whatever. So yeah, that, that's me trying to help the kids.

Second time trying. Um, this is the second kid that has Twitter. I think it's a sign. Yeah.

Well, you don't even have a phone yet. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry. I'll get the phones on order and we'll get a Twitter. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a, it's a strange place though, right, Ben? I mean, it can be pretty weird.

I know Twitter can be interesting. My friends have said that when I say I have Twitter, people think of me as not Bitcoin when they see I have Twitter on my phone. So, you know, Twitter can be bad and it can be dangerous for kids to be on it, but if a kid is truly like focused on the right thing and is guided the right way, they shouldn't have to do anything bad and should be responsible enough to do what they're supposed to be doing on their phone.

The best, the best thing to do is only ever follow people with laser eyes and Bitcoin only in their In their profile. Start there. And then start from there.

Yeah, it can still be changed. The crazy thing is it can still be, um, your, the things that pop up is put to you by Twitter.

Mm-hmm.

And is like suggested by what you follow and what you like. But if you don't like something by somebody you followed a long time, like they won't show up at all. You can look at, but you can, that's for your home, but you can look at people you only follow. That's something you can do. But that's one thing I like about Nostr is you can make your own filter, like your actual own filter, which can be hard at first, but like you can narrow it down to only certain things and have different categories. And that's pretty cool, but that's still coming up and rising. But yeah, I think Twitter's a good idea if you're responsible. And trust yourself to do the right things.

If it was not for Twitter, I wouldn't have learned half as much as half as quickly as I did. That, that place was, that place was an amazing place to learn about Bitcoin for me and learn about further resources that I could go and start digging into as well. All right, man. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you, sir. It was an honor to be on here. Thank you so much.

You're welcome. You're welcome. And it's great to see that people as young as you and Lauren and Sam and yeah, July, we're trying to do Bitcoin for Kids Month and try and get out as much content as we can. So we'll be getting this one out certainly in July over the next week, hopefully. And hopefully people will reach out and yeah, good luck, brother. And I can't wait to meet you in person somewhere.

For sure. Sometime. If it's random or planned or not, I'm gonna meet you guys sometime.

For sure.

Thank you for having me on again.

Yeah. You're welcome. All right. Have a good afternoon.

Yep. Have a good rest of the day. Bye-bye.

See ya. Well guys, we already won.

We already won if we can keep young people at the age of 13 and 14. 12. Lauren's 12. She was on this whole podcast too. If we can keep this signal as high as we've managed to reach and now push that down through the generations, we've already won. I mean, look, you just listened to over an hour of a 14-year-old boy talking about his passion, and his passion is Bitcoin. Imagine what that is going to unlock throughout the rest of his life, how that's going to affect his decision-making going forward, having a low time preference mindset rather than a high time preference mindset. As we got talking about how's it going to affect his sports, how's it going to affect his day-to-day decision-making, how's it going to affect his thoughts about the future, none of that would have ever happened If he was still just thinking in terms of fiat and fiat incentives. Now when that coach turns around to him and says, right, get out there, go and make the change, go and make this happen, but he knows he's got a knee injury and that's going to keep him on the bench for another 3 months or just completely sideline his career, he's most likely going to turn around and say, no, I'm not fit, I'm not ready. A fiat-minded, high time preference kid would not. They would get out there, ruin their knee and that's it, they're done at the age of 15. How many stories have you heard about that in your family circle of friends? And it's just these tiny little examples that make such a huge difference in people's lives. And I'm really, really happy to have met Ben on this show. Now DMing with, with his mum, yet to meet the family. But we are trying between Orange Pill app and Pacific Bitcoin to liaise and get them over to the Pacific Bitcoin Conference. So look out for any, any announcements. Perhaps we could get him on stage hosting a panel. It'd be great up there with some boomers as well, with Greg Foss, who he obviously has a lot of respect for. This is what we do as a community. This is the social layer of Bitcoin. This is how we help each other. And if there's any way at all in which you can help Ben and his mom get over there, then reach out. Reach out to me via DMs, reach out to Ben directly, and yeah, let's make this happen. Or if there's any way at all you can help with his project that he's going to be launching, I believe at the same day that I'm launching— releasing this podcast, excuse me— and his savings initiative to try and help educate as many kids of his age group or younger or slightly even older to learn about savings and saving in sats and what a difference that's gonna make to their lives as well. So Bitcoin for Kids Month, this was inspired by Sam Duvall who gave a keynote speech at the BTC Prague conference at the age of 13. So straight after Michael Saylor on the main stage to thousands of people. She called it out, Bitcoin for Kids Month. Let's make this happen. That's why Lauren and I are focusing on trying to get as many kids interviews out there as possible this month. So I hope you're enjoying them. Please share them with friends and family. When you have these discussions with the youngsters, it, it really helps fill in the blanks as to You know, if you've not fully joined the dots as to what this is yet, it's not NumberGoUp technology, it's about societal change for the better of humanity. Uh, yeah, you, you, you'll soon start connecting those dots if, if you haven't. Just spend more than a few days in the rabbit hole and things start changing in your mind. Anyway, before we sign out, thank you very much to all of the show sponsors for helping me put this together and keep it going over the last 3 and a half years. Swan Bitcoin out in the US, they're looking after you across the pond. Get there if you want to start stacking some Bitcoin. swanbitcoin.com/bitton will take you to the signup link. Relai are this side of the pond, relai.ch/bitton. Start stacking. Coin Corner, hit the link in the show notes, use that link That's a referral link that will give you a free £10 worth of Bitcoin after your first £100 or euros spent. Hodl Hodl, our global peer-to-peer non-KYC platform. Wasabi are gonna up your privacy. BitBox are gonna store— make sure you are storing your Bitcoin correctly. BitBox02 hardware wallet, get that, get those satoshis in cold storage. mempool.space have got you for visualizing and educating yourself around the blockchain. Orange Pill app for building out the social layer. The conferences that you can get to are the Baltic Honey Badger in Riga and Liberty in Our Lifetime in Prague. And get a book from ConsenSys Network. They are doing such a great job of hosting this podcast on their YouTube channel. So if you want to watch this interview with Ben, get across to the ConsenSys Network channel on YouTube. I've run out of music. I've been talking too much. Catch you on the next show.