@SamTheBTCKid - @Ben_deWaal - Launching bitcoin Kids Month - Once BITten 355

We're recording. We've got Ben de Waal here with Samantha and Lauren, and this is an initiative that we wanted to put together after Samantha gave her talk at the BTC Prague conference. And what was the announcement at the end of that talk, Samantha?

It was about Bitcoin Kids Month being launched, which is going to be in July, a whole month where we try to get kids more involved in Bitcoin.

And here we are. So well done. Great to see you guys. Great to have met you as well in Prague. Absolutely. Yep. Couldn't stop these two talking when we were there,

Ben. It was, yeah, it was fun actually seeing all of the kids just kind of getting together and, you know, not only just having fun with each other, but also, you know, all of the The conversations they were having, the things they were doing at that gaming area, also with those NFC tags, everyone getting involved. Yeah, it was, I think it was a great thing to see. And, you know, I think the kids really, you know, hit it off and had a great time.

Yeah, it was really fun, especially the dancing.

Okay.

I have a video of you, which of course I won't release, but I might send it to your dad of you jumping up and down like a crazy girl.

Which part of the conference was that? Was that in the, uh, the nightclub on the last night?

Exactly.

Yeah. Fun. The music going, all the like Bitcoin-related songs.

Yeah.

Everyone just downed their alcohol though.

Well, Bitcoiners know how to party. So what was your favorite part of the, the whole conference then, Samantha? And then Lauren can talk about her favorite part.

So I think I really enjoyed like hanging out with the others and just like meeting new people. I think like especially in the Bitcoin space, there are so many like different types of people and we all share one common interest. So yeah, meeting people would be my probably favorite part.

Yeah, probably the same thing. The people and me doing my first panel was fun.

Yeah, let's talk about, let's talk about that. You guys hit the stage first for me, actually. I, I've never seen kids up on a stage before at a Bitcoin conference.

So, um, yeah, first time I ever saw a kid on stage was in fact Sam, but, uh, this was her second time. Up in Prague. Her first time was in El Salvador at the end of last year. You want to talk about that, Sam?

Sure. So last year in November, I was at Adopting BTC 2022 and in El Salvador, and there I talked about what it's like growing up with Bitcoin as a kid.

And what is that like?

So I'd say it's like different than being there to like experience Bitcoin being like newly released. Because to me it's just something that's always like stuck around. It's not like a whole nother topic that I need to learn on top of the banking system. I have not learned the banking system, but I have learned the Bitcoin system and I'm not intending on learning the banking system for now. I might have to learn it in the future, but not for now.

Let's hope you never have to because it's very difficult to understand.

Oh yeah. Especially when you get into things like different currencies and different central banks and how do they all interact with each other. And there's just so much craziness there. It's fiat. People talk about Bitcoin as being complex, but I think what I've noticed raising my 2 kids, explaining Bitcoin to them is so much easier than explaining The fiat system, just, there's not as much to it. I mean, sure, you can go into a lot of technical depth and we're going to, but that's not something you have to learn to understand Bitcoin. You just need to kind of know the basic economic principles and why it makes sense and contrast it to other things that don't make sense.

What have you seen, Lauren, when I'm doing banking stuff or I'm doing Bitcoin stuff, what kind of mood am I in when I'm doing those things?

Well, banking stuff, you are normally frustrated. Yes. Because it's a pain in the ass. And, um, you doing Bitcoin, it's, you are sometimes frustrated because sometimes you can't get the thing done, but usually you're just—

Yeah. Not, not frustrated, I'd say.

Um, annoyed a little bit.

No. What's the word I'm looking for? Intrigued.

Voilà.

Like, damn, why didn't that just work? Because I know Bitcoin's not broken. So what did I do wrong? And, and how do I fix that? And because I know it, it's completely unbreakable, I know it's user error and I've gotta figure that out. Whereas with the banking system, I mean, toss a coin, you never know who's gonna be wrong that side of it. It could be user error on my side or the app's down as usual, or You know, there's nobody there to speak to. You dunno why there's, you know, 1,000 extra euros on your account that's come out of nowhere or missing. It just makes no sense. So Sam, growing up, when was the first time you heard about Bitcoin, do you think? Like what age? Has dad always been into it or is this something that he started bringing to the dinner table out of nowhere?

So I think, um, the first time I probably really heard of it was probably when I was like 2, 3, 4, because my dad has used it like in 2000 when, when like it was released, when it was launched. But he kind of then just tossed it away like, eh, this is not worth my time. Mm-hmm. But then later when I was like a toddler, like probably 2 or 3, he like rediscovered it and like was like, hey, why is this thing down? And then went down the rabbit hole like, oh. It can't be get down. People can't remove it.

Yeah.

You came in really late, Daddy.

Oh yeah, I know. Mm-hmm. So you were already

dying?

No, no, no, no. Um, when I first started learning about it, you would've been You were born in 2011, right? So you were born after Bitcoin. Yeah. Blows your mind, doesn't it? So I started, I'd heard about it, but I didn't start actually learning about it and really diving into it around 2015. But I wasn't at the point of Crazy talking about it all of the time. I was at the point of hmm, this is interesting, and using my spare time to watch Andreas Antonopoulos YouTube videos, read his books, find out who the other people were in the space that I could learn from. Real Vision actually back then did a great job before they went full cryptard, and they had Tura Demister on, they had Trace Mayer on, they had Juan Cesar Cesares. So I was watching all of those interviews and slowly but surely getting pulled into it. So 2016, I would've started talking more to mummy about it because that's when I decided we need to start planning differently than the usual funds and whatever else I'd been doing beforehand. So at that point, you still wouldn't have been hearing me talk about it. It wasn't until a little bit later that I would've started bringing it to the dinner table, maybe 2018. And even then you wouldn't have really picked up on it, I don't think. So not until I would say I went completely crazy and started doing the podcast, and that was 2020 when you guys would've thought, who the hell's this guy now?

Yeah, you are, you've really changed over the years with your personality. How? Well, my dad before was a guy that was really busy, couldn't really handle me cuz I go crazy most of the time. And, um, just wanted to have a life.

Mm-hmm. How about, uh, you, Sam? Have you felt yourself change or your family change or your dad change as—

Well,

I think, um, yeah, the mind virus creeps in.

I think it was like in like 2020 or early 2021 when my dad started going to more and more Bitcoin conferences that it was really like frequent. Like I've heard about him talk about it a lot and stuff, but like it was really frequent in like 2020, 2021, even with the pandemic. It just kind of became more frequent. And then I realized, hey, this is actually really cool. And we started talking about it more and more and more in the car on the way to school almost every day, our topic. And then one time we had the topic about, hey, I'm going to Adopting Bitcoin 2022. And then it just kind of both hit us like, wait, I never adopted it. Maybe I could talk about it, my perspective.

Yeah.

Yeah. From, from my perspective, it was, yeah, probably kind of similar, but You know, I was working a fiat job until 2017 and that actually 2018. That's when I, in 2017 though, I decided I'd have to stop working in the fiat world. I'd have to do something in the Bitcoin space. So that's when I started kind of, you know, reaching out. I'd been in the same company for 16 years. So, you know, one of those kind of corporate drone kind of things. I'd been moving up in the company, but it was, you know, this 50,000 employee global company, Japanese headquarters, all that sort of thing. And yeah, frequent business trips to Japan and all over the place.

And what was your role there, Ben? What were you doing?

So I sort of went in those 16 years, I went through a lot of different roles at the company, but I ended up being what was called technology development manager. So I was basically running the innovation department globally for this giant multinational. But yeah, I was traveling so much and I had these 2 young kids at home and I was saying to myself, You know, I'm missing their childhood. This is ridiculous. And, you know, I'm working for a company which, sure, it's a good company, but I'm not passionate about anything the company does. You know, so do you? It was a printer company, printer manufacturer. Who cares about printers? It's just not that exciting. You know, and I did, I'd been developing this strong interest for Bitcoin over all of this time. You know, I first discovered it 2010, ignored it for like a year, 2011, I rediscovered it. 2013 is when I kind of started going a bit more down the rabbit hole. So yeah, it had been 4 years of me looking at this technology, but not deeply doing anything with it and thinking to myself, why am I not doing anything with this? So, you know, that's when I left that job, started working in the Bitcoin space, and I've, you know, only worked for Bitcoin companies since then. In between other, you know, in between different companies, I've been doing my own consultancy work, which Has its ups and downs, but it's, you know, pretty good overall. You know, get to meet some interesting people, teach them things, help them out. And I think, you know, I feel like I'm making a difference in the world. And I think that kind of rubs off on the kids a bit as well. You know, it shows, you know, I'm doing something good for people instead of just, hey, I'm working to earn a paycheck.

So Sam, you've got a brother or a sister?

Smaller brother. He's

9. All right.

Had to think of it for a second. He, he turned 9 in April, but it's still hard for me to believe that my little brother is now 9.

And do you think it's rubbing off on him seeing his older sister and his dad go crazy about Bitcoin and fly off to different parts of the world together to present?

A little. So like he wants to go with us and stuff, but Even though my brother is 9, he can't read or write yet, so he'll have to learn that before he can come to any Bitcoin conferences because he'd be that one kid in the crowd being like, oh, I'm bored. Can we go home now? Because he doesn't really understand anything. So once he gets to be able to like read and write, we can, there's like a lot of new like Duolingo, like Bitcoin apps coming out like really recently. Like if he gets a phone when he's 10, if he's mature enough, Then he can have a phone and he can learn a bit about it more, and then he can actually start coming to Bitcoin conferences.

And how about you, Lauren?

Then he can learn about it more when he's like in a space with entire Bitcoiners because he's never really met any Bitcoiners except for me and my dad.

And yeah, they, one of the apps is called Simple Bitcoin, right? I think, yeah, I've been playing around with that recently. It's fun.

What is

it? Simple Bitcoin. It's like that little owl. Yeah. You got, you gotta check it out. Yeah, it's very good. And how about you, Lauren? Why, why do you think you were drawn to come in and ask questions on the podcast and sit with me and interview Bitcoiners when your other 3 siblings were meh?

To be honest, I don't know. I just said, okay, I'll do it. 'Cause I, I just wanted to, I don't, I didn't really have a reason. Well, because just wanted to ask a question and you going on about it nearly every single night was a bit weird for me, so I just wanted another answer for it probably.

And why do you think the other 3, did you think they're, who do you think understands it the most or is more passionate about it? Is it you? Some, one of the others?

I think I'm probably the one who knows a lot more about Bitcoin than every, than all my other teammates. But I think Samuel's the one that gets it. Like, if, if it's like, if it's a ladder to get points, like me, Samuel, Sofia, I think Sofia I mean, I, I know, I think they get it, but they just— Oh,

there's gonna be a big argument when they watch this bit.

I, I don't know, but like, they understand it, but I don't know how to say it. They understand it, but—

Well, the thing is that we've found, right, everybody on this call is you come at it from a different angle, right? So you can. from the angle of you were just inquisitive and wanted to come in and watch dad randomly interview people around the world and ask them a question because you have no fear of asking adults questions and that's your thing. Sophia probably looks at it more from like a humanitarian side. Caitlin is looking at it more from an economic standpoint. And now she's reading The Fiat Standard and Principles of Economics, having worked with Saif, she, she got very inspired. So she's coming at it from that angle and Samuel's coming at it from like, oh shit, you can play Pac-Man and stuff and like, you know, you can load up NFC tags. And so he's coming at it from, from like more of a tech gaming angle. Um, which is really interesting to see. So it'll be, it'll be fun to see what happens with your brother Sam, where, where he picks up on it and why. Yeah. Because Bitcoin matches your personality in some way and then brings out that best part of you.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that there. You know, from, you know, I came into Bitcoin, for example, from the more cypherpunk side of things. You know, as much as it even says, you know, cypherpunk future is now, you know, I was always interested in cryptography, but not even just the technical side, more of the implications of it. So, you know, what does it mean for human freedom, human flourishing, that kind of thing, you know, to be able to actually, you know, have these kinds of technologies? So for me, Bitcoin was like this very natural fit into some things I was already very kind of deeply interested in. You know, I was never that interested in economics. I'm still only kind of somewhat interested in macroeconomics, you know, the whole finance world. Doesn't interest me. Yeah. People say, oh yeah, yeah, you can invest in this or you can, you know, try to make money this way or look at different kinds of, you know, loan options based on your Bitcoin and so on. Yeah, sure. I'm sure those are useful, interesting things, but they just, there's zero interest there for me. Zero excitement. Whereas, you know, somebody then talks about a way to make it harder to trace Lightning transactions. I'm like, okay, awesome. I want to know about this. This is, you know, this is where I've got my interests. So I agree. Yeah, everyone comes from a different angle. You know, I think Sam, for example, isn't as interested in a lot of those things that I was just talking about, but she is interested in some other aspects, which, you know, she probably picked up on as I was talking about the 1,000 different things. So.

Yeah, I think like, I think I like Bitcoin from the side that like really helps people, like that it doesn't have inflation stuff is I think the thing that interests me the most because especially in an international school, we learned about the situations like, like what was that place called? Like that place where there's a war currently.

Ukraine?

No, not Ukraine.

The other one.

So the in-country war.

Sudan?

Yeah, Sudan. When we were like talking about Sudan and like other like poorer countries and like how Bitcoin can also help them because inflation and war makes it hard to even get food. And like when they go to America and stuff, things are like really overpriced because they haven't like worked, they don't have money and they need like, Really like, well, I would, I would not say America's overpriced just for them because they have never like worked and stuff and have no like learning experience. So it's hard for them to get a job except for being like a McDonald's cashier. It's hard for them to really get money and with inflation happening, it would make them like have to starve and stuff. And I, I'm, it's always, I think I see sometimes people, other people more important than myself. Like I care a lot for the like health of people. And I don't want anyone to get sick and stuff. So I think I like Bitcoin most because like it can help with not having inflation and you can't trace it down if you wanna buy something. And yeah, I think that's Bitcoin for the people.

Yeah, I love it. And, um, when you start digging a lot deeper into how these, uh, you know, wars and how people are divided and how countries are destroyed, by these institutions that we've been gaslit into believing do good for humanity. And we can list them, the World Bank, the IMF, the World Health Organization, the WEF, all of these, like they're all bad actors. And Alex Gladstein's done a great job of highlighting that. So anybody should go and read his work, especially about the IMF. Um, the International Monetary Fund, and we're told that they're there to go in. So, you know, you might read a headline, IMF comes in to help Sudan or the Sudanese or whatever. They're not. They've most likely created the whole damn problem in the first place for—

I feel like a lot of those people are like, um, are like MrBeast. MrBeast gives money to people, but he makes more money off of the video of giving money to people. So he doesn't do it because he cares about people. He does it for earning more money.

Yeah.

I don't know MrBeast. Do you know MrBeast?

Most people know MrBeast.

Mm-hmm.

I think he told this story once where a robber came into his house and, um, robbed a lot of his stuff, but all his Bitcoin codes were on the table and the robber robbed everything except for his Bitcoin codes cuz he didn't know what it was. I don't know. That's what his story was. And, uh, he makes like these crazy videos, like she said, uh, like Sam said, um, giving away money and doing 24-hour, um, like it, if you, if you're the last one to touch the plane, the private jet, then you can keep it and stuff like that.

He, he, he spends a lot of money, but he makes more money from the videos. So like he's one of those people that cares about money. And there's also like a lot of footage of him like being rude to people behind camera and stuff like. Whenever he's not on camera, he's not as nice as a person as he seems on camera with giving, hey, you know, you're poor. I'm gonna give you a Cola Bomb, which probably cost me like $2 or something, but then make $500 million off of this video.

Hmm. No. Yeah. No more watching MrBeast.

I watch him.

All right. Watch MrBeast, boys and girls. And then, but there's another dude out there. What was his name? Nas. Nas Daily. Just such a sellout.

I thought he was really good and then my dad saw it and he's like, stop watching him. I'm just like, why? He said, it's all fake. It's like, it's not real. It's just like, oh, I thought this was good.

You've seen that too,

Sam? Yeah, I've seen it. Like first, at first I thought like, hey, he's actually like being nice and stuff, but like, and he's actually talking to people and like talking about countries and stuff. But then I also found out like he's actually not that nice. He just like, he also like made this like new Nas Daily Pro. He says he does not have enough money to make his videos anymore, but like Judging from how many views his videos and stuff get, he should have more than enough money.

Oh, he got paid a lot to shill Ethereum. He got paid a lot to shill Singapore.

He, he, he said, he says always things like, oh, like we, we don't have enough money. Like, can you please like buy this thing? Because I, I don't have enough money. I use my own funds. I, I, I don't make any money, you know? And then please help. I, I wanna continue making these videos, but then he makes like $2K off of a video or whatever. And I don't think a plane ticket to the country right next to him costs $2K. He could also just take the car.

Yeah. All right. So yeah, we've outed all of these influencers. That's great to hear. There's one, one last person I want to ask you girls about and get your views and your thoughts. And how they've changed over time. Greta.

Oh, I remember you used to love her because she was, was she homeschooled?

No, she striked. Her original, her original, like, claim to fame was she was striking against the education system.

That's why you liked her.

I'm like, yeah, I buy into that. That's fine. But then that spiraled into this whole climate change thing.

She's making memes about it now, like on TikTok or YouTube. Apparently that's what I heard.

Do you believe the planet's gonna fall outta the sky by 2030?

No.

Good.

The world is gonna do what the world is gonna do. Like, can't stop it.

There's this woman that sounds really similar to her. She's, um, she's actually kind of really dumb and doesn't understand a lot of things, including Bitcoin. Like, One of the videos of her that I showed my dad recently was like, did you know there are over 5 languages in the world? We don't need all these languages. We don't need no British and we don't need no Canadian-ish. No, we only need American-ish. You know, like I learned that like British people, like they, they actually speak American-ish just with an accent. But like we Americans, we don't, we don't speak with an accent. No, because we're amazing and stuff. So like, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna stop the contract with the other languages. We're just learning American-ish from now on. And she made a recent one about Bitcoin, not understanding how it works. And he was like, she, she was like, yeah, like Putin probably created it and like is using it to like, to make like more money off of people for, for like, for like bombs and stuff. And like, yeah, Putin's doing this thing and like she, she, she's, she supports Putin with that.

So. And more people believe her, right? This is what's crazy because it's just, it's—

He gets a lot of views and followers and I don't know how people, like, I, I hope those people are just following because to see how like, Dumb she's being sometimes, because I follow some people just to like find out like, hey, what did they do today? Well, what thing did they do today that's probably going to annoy me? Then I'm going to talk to my dad about it, and then we're both going to trash talk.

It's difficult, Ben, isn't it? I mean, it is for other parents listening to this right now. It's a constant battle with these ill-intentioned influencers out there that. basically are on our kids' screens the whole time.

So something I always try to teach my kids is really thinking for yourself and actually critically examining things, being rationally skeptical of things. Now that doesn't just mean being contrarian. It doesn't just mean, oh, everyone's saying this, therefore I believe the opposite, because that's also not good. That's also not thinking for yourself. That's just doing the opposite of what everyone says. Instead, you know, look at claims, examine evidence, and make your own mind up based on that. And you know, a big part of that is understanding things like logical fallacies. You know, if you don't understand what kinds of mistakes people can make, you know, like, you know, yeah, just various different kinds of biases and so on. You know, when you, somebody makes a claim, you believe, or bias from authority, for example, or argument from ignorance. I don't believe that's, you know, I can't believe that's even possible, therefore I don't believe it's true is a, you know, it's a ridiculous argument. You need to actually bring evidence for your claim either way around. And I think the most important part of that, which I always try to teach the kids, is accepting the statement, I don't know, until you have more information. You know, you could be, you know, even with things like, which I'm passionate about, like Bitcoin, you know, if I cannot show you enough evidence that Bitcoin is the better form of money, don't believe me. Yep. Don't say it's not the better form of money, but don't say it is. Reserve judgment until you have enough information. And that's true with absolutely everything. Yeah. Whether we're talking about, you know, climate change, economics, you know, even simple things like, you know, what your teachers are teaching in school. about, you know, history and so on because, you know, that is often extremely biased. So, you know, examine evidence, make up your own mind based on that. And, you know, if there isn't enough evidence, just be willing to say, I don't know, I will find out more.

To the teacher topic, 1 or 2, 3 or 3, I don't remember how many weeks ago, but I'm happy. I left the school that I was at last year in private school. I left it because multiple reasons and Yeah. But like something that annoyed me about that school was one time, I, I don't think the headmaster like likes Bitcoin because like she, she's, she's like, yeah, you know what? You sure go on a 3-month skiing trip. I don't care. Oh, Sam, no, you cannot go 2 weeks to El Salvador to talk about Bitcoin. Oh no, that, that is highly bad. Like that's crypto. No, no, no, no doing that. And then she was in class talking about like things that like are wrong and things that might like change the future. And then she mentioned like, Bitcoin briefly, kind of looked at me like, like disgusted, like, and then like she just continued talking about like AIs and like other like future things. And like, she was like, oh yeah, you know, like Bitcoin, it's like conspiracy and stuff, probably. Like, yeah. And like my classmates were like, but Sam, like, aren't you interested in Bitcoin? Like, why? She said, she, she said so, miss said so. And I'm like, yeah, don't believe her. Like. Find out about it yourself and then choose who you wanna believe. Don't, don't believe her just because she's the adult.

What's the saying? Don't trust, verify. Is that that?

Exactly.

Exactly that. But that's, that's so damaging because now the, like, you're right, the, the flapping head in the room, the adult, the authority, the, the all-knowing Because that's what the education system does to us. At the age of 5, there's 30 of you little people and one big person, and one big person has all the power and has all the knowledge and has all the answers. And that gets carried through your life. So when you are 10, 11, 12, 13, and you're sitting in that classroom and one of the other little people is the only one that's standing up and saying, but No, what you're saying isn't right. And I've seen with my own eyes the difference it makes. And the big person, the adult, the authority, is saying the other thing. The other 29 people are going to side with them because they just don't want to be, uh, put in the corner or told to be quiet.

Yeah, my old school was definitely very authoritarian. Like, they were like, oh no, you, that, We believe like, um, a situation that I kind of had, I'm gonna quickly just mention this, is, um, internet memes. So there's like this meme where like you like see what's inside of someone's head and it's just an animation of like seeing what's inside of someone's head. But the, the teacher, like, and the student that like, um, that the video was made of was like, yeah, it's like a meme. And like me and my friend did it, no big deal. And the teacher's like, oh no, that looks like, that looks like you're slicing her head off. Oh my God. That like, that's scary. Like. You cannot do that. That is highly school inappropriate. But like, it did not look like it was slicing someone's head off, and it was a meme that we have shown her. Like, other videos do it too. And I know you can't just do something cuz other people do it, but like, if the girl also says that it doesn't, that it isn't that and that it's a meme, don't keep believing that just because you think, oh no, I'm always right because I'm, I'm the, I'm the principal here. Like, no, I'm always right.

Yeah. So to me, an important part of that is learning to accept the difference between somebody who is an authority on something versus somebody having authority over something. You know, like, you know, I am perfectly willing to admit a doctor who has studied medicine for 10 years almost certainly knows a lot more about certain aspects of the internal workings of the body than somebody else. And, you know, I will happily say, okay, you know, this person probably knows more, but that doesn't mean I'm automatically going to accept everything they say. What it means instead is I expect them to be able to provide a higher and better level of evidence. But I'm still judging things based on the evidence and not on the supposed authority. So they might be an authority on the topic. That doesn't mean they should Have authority because of the topic.

And especially, I think Germany, Germans kind of always like follow the rules of like, of like higher people. And like they're, they're on bottom of these like billboards and stuff in Germany. Like, oh, this peop— a person that has studied this for 20 years or whatever, or this like pro— like this like profi on something, like learned so much about this and they say this, like it's kind of a thing in Germany. They just like automatically go like, oh, okay. Yeah, they studied it, so they must know about it. So that's the way it is. Well, like I research a little bit more into that because if somebody says you should brush your teeth instead of with toothpaste, you should brush it with shampoo, I would start to research and be like, what are you saying here?

Yeah, it's the same here in France as well. That, that hierarchy is so set in stone and, um, nobody ever wants to be seem to even be trying to get out of their lane or challenge someone else because it's, I mean, it's a cultural faux pas. But what do you get in return? You get no forward thinking, you get no critical thinking. And that's what I love about the Bitcoin space. You know, Ben, I'm sure you've had some of the most meaningful conversations with people that have had the complete opposite opposing view to you. On certain subjects. And most likely at 1:00 AM at a bar. I mean, like, you know, I remember we were in the hotel lobby and these guys were chatting away and you and Knut were chatting away and I was just sitting there listening to you guys. My goodness, I am way outta my depth on these topics, but I love listening to them kind of not even argue, just converse.

And

yeah, it,

In fact, I want to call it an argument, but an argument in the classical sense of what an argument is supposed to be. People making points and listening to them and considering them, and then, you know, maybe making counterpoints or saying, oh, okay, I hadn't considered that. You know, that's a more classical, even philosophical argument rather than, you know, just 2 people yelling at each other saying, no, you're wrong. And yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love those conversations.

Yeah. So a debate basically.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Probably a better word for it. And did you ever have any of those in your fiat career? 16 years at the same company?

Short answer, no. I mean, you know, more standard arguments, yelling at each other. No, you're wrong. No, you're wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of those, and that's, you know, not productive or useful or interesting. And, you know, as far as having an interesting life goes, you know, that's Kind of the goal in a lot of ways. And yeah, I think, you know, be making the world a better place, being happy and having an interesting life are kind of the, you know, the top things for me. And Bitcoin helps me achieve all of those. So yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Yeah. I think a lot of the authoritarians also always think like, they think like they ignore whatever you try to say because they think, oh, I'm right. I think so. I don't need to listen to this. Um, so when I tried to go to El Salvador, uh, throwback on this, um, when we were at the airport, there was a Czech lady at the counter. I think that's where it was. And, um, we wanted to get our plane tickets, obviously, to go. And we drove an hour from Germany to the Czech Republic, or an hour and a half to go to the airport to get 'em. And then the lady was like, no, you're not getting them. You, you don't have a COVID QR code. And we're like, Yes, but we have the German, like, yellow book that you need for COVID. Like, that's how it was in Germany. No, no, my, my cousin lives in Germany. Like, that's not how it is. You, you can also have a QR code. Yes, you can also have a QR code, but this yellow book is perfectly fine. And then we were arguing with her for like 14 minutes until she was like, okay, fine, you can have the plane tickets, little girl, but I'm the adult here, so keep this between the adults and just know that if you're gonna be turned around at the American or at the El Salvadorian borders, like, it's not my fault.

Yeah. And of course we weren't turned around at the border, you know, they didn't even ask. So,

yeah.

But 40 minutes of arguing with this stupid woman who's like basically stopping us from going there, you know, Sam, this was before Sam had been on stage. She'd been invited to go to El Salvador, get up on stage, give a presentation, you know, and this woman is basically crushing an 11-year-old girl's dreams at the airport. All for, yeah. Do you have the electronic QR code versus the little yellow book? Yeah, it's just such an idiotic thing.

It's just, she was making us call everyone in Germany. Like we called first like our mom, like mom, then we called like my grandparents and we're like, hey, do you know anything about like QR code or whatever? Like we can't go back to Germany, go to the doctor and get one obviously. And I was crying and the one told dad to like, yeah, go behind the counter. There's like a computer over there, like Google and stuff. And we Googled it on our phones and it was like, yeah, yellow book is acceptable. And we tried, I like tried showing it to her and she just kept being like, oh no, you're a little girl. Keep this between the adults. And then like after some time, finally I managed to be like, excuse me, I have a right to say something. Give us those tickets now, please. And then we got them.

Yep. Ah, and all of that comes down to Her own fears, right? Because it's her career risk. Yeah. And if she loses her job, she loses the ability to put food on the table for her kids if she had kids. But you, you, you know what I mean? And that's the fiat world. And like all of the incentives are completely misaligned, as we all know, and was when we talked about. Okay. Interesting life. Let's go back to that. To lead an interesting life. Uh, you girls have probably got some good stories from Prague at the very least. We'll start with you, Sam, because you went on straight after Sailor, which means beforehand you were probably hanging backstage with Sailor. So yeah, I saw some interesting stories there. Um,

I, I was, I, I just like, we walked in, me and Dad, and then, um, and then I was like, Wait, on the couch, that's Michael Saylor, right? And Dad's like, yeah. And then the person next to him like stood up and Dad just casually walked over there, just sat down. And I was like, what, what would

you

do? Like freaking out a little bit. Then I just sat down and then like, uh, Dad just started talking to Michael Saylor like, hey, how's it going? Just casually. And I'm like, what? Casual then. And I felt really awkward. Uh, but then I also like talked to him a little bit and he seemed genuinely interested. But then somebody actually came and was like, hey Sam, um, Like, how, how do you wanna do it? Like headset mic. And then, uh, Michael Saylor already had to go on stage and I was sitting there revising my presentation while drinking Sprite, while talking to some people. And then last 20 minutes was just getting like the headset on, preparing like, hey, when this happens, go on this side of the stage, go on that side of the stage, walk around a little, remember this, remember that. And then, yeah. That was Kind of my before stage experience. And well, when the lady said like walking around on stage and stuff, I think I did that. I think I walked around a little bit. There I know are some other people that were just taking their phone and reading like, and this is why Bitcoin is good. And I, I was more like, like I had my phone, but I was kind of like let— letting it low and talking more with the mic, like to the audience. And then glanced at it a little bit, talked more. I'm not really that person that really likes like, yes, everybody. Hello, this is my presentation about Bitcoin and I hope you love this. Yeah. Bye. Yeah.

So yeah, yeah, I might be a little biased, but I think she rocked it on stage. I think she was incredible.

Well done. And how about you? Like when we did the panel, because you got to interview another legend. Joe Hall and some other guy called Giacomo. I can't remember his surname.

So yeah, the big stage sounds complicated. I think the little stage was good for me to start.

The big stage was complicated. Yes, Sam's correct. Like they were telling you, and then you hit this mark and then you go out at this time, then I give you this hand signal and then blah, blah, blah. And did you want mic? Do you want earpiece? And it is overwhelming, especially If you've never done it before, because I was emceeing and I'd never done that before. And, you know, do you want, do you prefer earpiece or handheld microphone, Daniel? Whatever you got, I suppose. I don't know. I have no preference. I've never done it. So backstage, we were on the little stage on that panel and we had a discussion how we were going to do it. Do you remember?

Yeah.

What they were saying to you?

Johu, even though we went over it like 3 times, Johu still got it wrong.

He still went out first, didn't he? I can't remember what he got wrong, but he got something wrong. Uh, and then, uh, yeah, and we had to decide who was gonna sit on the, um, the naughty chair. The—

It's you.

Because, uh, they had the 3 big red chairs up there. And, um, Lauren decided that she wanted me to come up as well as a bit of moral support. So to help if there was a, you know, she got nervous, uh, during—

Or misunderstanding, cuz I'm kind of bad at explaining.

Yeah.

Uh, I, I had the same in El Salvador. I asked like, like my, they asked like, hey, do you also want a mic? But like my dad was just sitting there in the corner on stage just smiling awkwardly at the crowd while I was talking. And then at some point I was like, yeah, and my dad is really old, by the way. And my dad looked really embarrassed. Like, why am I on the stage? Why is everybody looking at me?

Yeah.

So do you girls, um, you wanna do it again? You wanna get up on stage and, and—

Yeah, I probably on a little stage again.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think I'm not really ready for the big stage. I mean, Sam went on the big stage straight away after her second try, but I think I'm gonna get used to it more. Um, so then I actually know what I'm doing and not embarrass myself while I'm up on the big stage while like a couple thousand people are watching me. But yeah.

At, at some point we gotta collab on stage, Lauren.

Yes.

For sure. Because like the biggest feedback we got The immediate feedback we got from, and Giacomo and everybody in the crowd was, we need way more of these panels because the questions were so basic, 12-year-old questions. That was the whole point of the panel. You know, explain Bitcoin to me like I'm a 12-year-old was the name of the panel. And we had some questions from the plebs in the crowd as well that were getting upvoted and some fun ones. But it was so, it was really interactive, really fun. And Jack was like, he like blown away by, we need to do more of this. Like that, this is like an absolute no-brainer. And to have the presentations as well and keynotes, which are 2 different things completely. Yeah. Hosting panels I find pretty easy. You know, you ask a question and you're quiet. Whereas 15 minutes or 30 minutes with presentations and slides and building the story, that's a whole new skill.

There's a lot of preparation work that went into it. So, you know, um, with Sam's presentations, I help her a little bit in terms of, um, you know, let's put the slides together. Let's discuss, you know, maybe where some of the images can go or whatever. But I've been very careful with both of the ones that she's done so far. You know, it's her presentation. So she decides what she's talking about. She decides the order that things go in, you know, so she's, she's the one writing the story, figuring out what to say, how it all fits together. And I'm just kind of supporting her in the process of turning that into a presentation.

You're the image format person.

Yeah. We all need one of those, Sam.

Except, except for some of the images that I draw myself, like, um, On the stage, there was this one image of like a Bitcoin, of like a bank and a Bitcoin with like a check mark and like a bank full of like Ethereum and Euro and like other cryptocurrencies. Like I drew this with digital arts. I don't know if you can see it below.

Yeah.

And then a yes to Bitcoin.

Yeah.

It, it's mirrored, I think maybe, but yeah.

No, it's good. We saw it very, very clearly. Uh, so when, Sam, you're 13, I think.

12.

You're 12.

Yeah.

12. Okay. When are you 13, Sam?

Uh, 13 next year, April.

Okay. And you're January. All right. So we're on the same, we're on the same timeline here. In 10 years' time, when you are just approaching 23, Where do you envisage yourselves being and what do you think your, your work is going to look like?

I honestly feel like I'll be that, I honestly feel like I'll be like in a small apartment somewhere having like maybe like a home office and like probably working in the Bitcoin space, maybe like a Bitcoin, like I've always been passionate about digital art and like acting. So like maybe I could be like a person that does ads or like a Bitcoin ad or like just introducing something on like stage. If anybody wants like, hey, we need help introducing this topic, like can you come to this conference and introduce it here? Then making like a keynote on that and like introducing something or even being like logo designer and stuff for companies. Because I've always liked Bitcoin and I wanna help in the Bitcoin space, but I'm also really passionate about acting and like drawing and like making stories. Like, I don't know if you guys have seen, but there's this, there's like art competition in the Bitcoin space. Like you can get, win like sats for like arts drawn by kids and there's like different age groups and I'm participating. I'm making like a short animation.

Oh, very cool. I, I, I've seen them before. MTC did one. You guys won some sats. Yeah.

The only kids that did it though.

That's why you won the sats.

Yeah.

It was about 3 years ago. MTC, @GhostOfMTC now on Twitter. He designed the Sats Ledger, little booklets and stickers. So for kids that were earning pocket money in sats, they could write it all down and whatever else. And he did a giveaway, the best depiction of Satoshi. So the kids all drew and put it in there. We were retweeting it about, but it never, it never really caught on. Um, not that many people, uh, like sent anything across, but you guys did and he was good enough to, to pay out all the sats equally between you, wasn't he?

Yeah, that was, that was fun.

So I'm hoping that like this, this latest initiative is still picking up steam and bringing kids in and artists and—

Yep.

Yep.

So what about you?

Well, I would probably finally take over the podcast, or maybe not, but

hopefully, hopefully you can go retire and lay on the beach with Ben and like, you know, deep conversations because we did all the stacking we needed to when we were, when the price was low.

Yeah, I don't really know where I'll be. I might still be living in with you. Traveling around the world, or I might go with someone else and just do conferences and stuff. But

I know a girl.

Oh yeah. Dorm roommates, future dorm roommates.

Yeah. If you guys stack, you won't need to dorm. You'll be penthouse roommates and traveling the world together in private jets and going to across to conferences. I mean, come on, this is Bitcoin.

So yeah,

X stats and then start booking hotels and Airbnbs and

yeah, travel.

Don't really have a home, just home is Earth.

Yeah.

I saw yesterday, Matteo from Orange Pill app sent me AirBTC. So someone is starting Airbnb basically, but for Bitcoin only. And I think that's a great idea. I actually had airbnbitcoin.com once upon a time, but never moved on it. So if somebody else is doing it, that's great. Or there'll be home swapping, Bitcoin home swappers or citadels, so-called citadels, communities that are being built. I had a conversation with a lady the other day who was leaving the US to go to El Salvador. To set up a little homeschooling hub there in El Salvador because she's passionate about teaching, but she cannot teach in the education system anymore. She's sick of it. She's done. She's been stacking with her husband. They've managed to release themselves. They're going to El Salvador and they're going to set up a little hub there. So people, if you want to go spend 2 or 3 months there and you're 13, 15, 8, or whatever, you can just dip in and out of the community. And another one is being built in Madeira by Rob and his wife Sylvie. They're going to be doing the same kind of thing and you can even be able to rent apartments from them. So this is going to be the coolest way to travel the world and like dip into those communities where you're immediately welcome and you've got something to add, value to add immediately, and you've got the correct medium of exchange in which they are passionate about and, you know, want to Serve you and offer goods and services in.

Things you can pay with Bitcoin, which a lot of Bitcoiners will be happy with.

Absolutely.

Yeah. There's a few interesting places around the world now where I think, you know, if I had a lot more money than I do, I would love to just basically do a tour of, you know, Bitcoin places around the world. So, you know, just even, you know, relatively close to home here, you know, just head over to the Netherlands, start off in You know, Arnhem, Bitcoin City. Thank you. In the Netherlands.

Isn't there that one guy that does that?

Yeah. So basically, yeah, one, one guy's done a lot of the orange pilling for the city center of Arnhem. You know, there's nothing official.

No, I mean like one person that like travels around the world.

Yeah. Digipacker. Yeah. Yeah. Packer's not too bad. Yep. Yep. But yeah, you really just then, and maybe fly from there to Madeira and then from Madeira to El Salvador, go from El Salvador over to, you know, Bitcoin jungle. Costa Rica. In Costa Rica, then Bitcoin Lake in Guatemala. You, all of these different places and just hop from Bitcoin place to Bitcoin place and just kind of see all of the similarities and also the differences and then try to, you know, sort of just spread things from there. I think that would be a really interesting thing to do. Unfortunately, yeah, you know, financially that's not feasible right now, but yeah, who knows how it'll look in a few years.

Yeah, absolutely. We want to do exactly the same thing and, and get to Honduras as well. Where, uh, Duxan is with Amity Age. Um, yeah, there's, and in the next 3 to 5 years, there's, I mean, they're just going to be sprouting up all over the place.

Yeah. And like, they're going to be amazingly beautiful and they're just, a lot of them sound so fun.

Yeah. So in 10 years' time, girls, you're going to be set.

Yeah. I think me and Sam and a lot of other Bitcoin kids, will have definitely a huge chance with everything.

Yes, you will. And you won't have to work in the kind of common sense, common definition of the word work, right? Which you will work for your Bitcoin, but it won't feel like work. It won't be the 9 to 5 or the 6 till 6 that your dad and I had to suffer for 17, 18 years, whatever it was. That was work in the, in the, in the purest definition of the word work. Yeah. You go, you girls, you won't have to suffer that. And that's what I love about Bitcoin and, you know, this, this idea of passing down generational wealth savings and you guys getting to learn about it at the same time we're learning about it.

Yep.

I think a big part of that though is also making money fairer, you know, breaks a lot of these bad incentive systems that we were talking about earlier in the call, which then fixes the pricing and value on things because so many things cost stupid amounts compared to what they should purely because of all of the stuff that goes behind it. All of the regulatory things that are surrounding it.

Like if it's one big company, like I don't think glasses should My glasses should cost over €128 or something expensive. And I, but people that need glasses need them. Like, it's not my own choice that my eyes are damaged and that I need glasses. So they should really be cheaper, but it's not because it's one big company behind it. Like, hey, make it this price.

Yeah. There are large monopolies which are, you know, supported by the current system. It's not, um, you know, the market isn't Freed. You don't have the ability for, you know, actual competition to come in and, you know, do proper price setting. And I think having a Bitcoin standard fixes a lot of those things because the money can't be manipulated. Yeah. If you follow back all of those kinds of things, it basically all eventually flows back to the money printer and the Cantillon effect so that, you know, the rich get richer and the poor suffer at the expense of people printing the money for themselves. So yeah, I think if we can fix, if we can work towards a Bitcoin standard, it not only fixes it for those who, you know, have a decent amount of Bitcoin like these girls here, you know, they're going to be set regardless, but it also helps fix it for everyone else. And I think that's, you know, that's a very important thing.

Yeah. Or another example, I don't know if you've like heard, but like, I think it was like really recently, like a month ago or 2 or so when like braces, they got like another €500, like more expensive or something. Like really more expensive. I'm happy I got my braces before, and I don't think braces should be that expensive. Like with, with, it's metal. I don't think metal costs that much.

Yeah. Nothing magically happened that they all of a sudden became €500 more expensive to produce. Exactly. So

they just wanted to have more money. Like, hey, we can do this and people will also buy it. If they don't, then we are just gonna say, oh, it's $100 cheaper again until finally we overprice it by at least 10 more euro.

They're so expensive. And I know because Sophia has some on her teeth at the moment and Caitlin, she's been doing the Invisalign thing. Invisalign is just see-through plastic. The braces that you and Sophia both have on is just wire, it's metal wire. But because of regulatory capture in the dental industry by the people that have monopolized That process. Oh, I didn't go to 4 years of medical dental training school to be told how to do my job. Thank you. But it's like, dude, it's a pair of pliers and some wire and some glue. Like, you don't need 4 years to learn that. You can learn that on the job if there was ever such a thing as like an apprenticeship. And then, you know, like you said, like a free market. But no, you've got to have this state-sponsored certificate. on the wall that says you are the only one allowed to do this. So you probably have the same kind of lock-in that we do with our dentist, because if we were to go traveling all around next year and Sophia needed her braces tightened, dentists probably aren't going to want to touch it because they might find themselves being sued or they have all of this ridiculous—

Yeah, the regulatory framework around it is a giant mess. But then, you know, on top of that, there's the regulatory framework around the insurance side of it And that also jacks the prices up because as far as the people are usually concerned, where there's mandatory insurance, you know, the people no longer care how much it costs. The insurance company does. So you end up in this kind of vicious cycle of price hiking, which to the people looks like, oh, I don't have to care because the insurance company's paying for it. But these large amounts of money then, you know, filter out into the rest of the society, making everything else more expensive than it needs to be. So yeah, there's no such thing as a free lunch. It just doesn't, it doesn't work that way. Things have to balance. And, uh, right now we're in a system of ridiculously unbalanced money.

Yes, we are. Sorry, girls. Are we, we're boring you now?

No, it's just, it's just, I just—

Sam yawns, you have to yawn too.

Exactly. No, it's when someone yawns, you yawn. Exactly. It's very contagious. Even, even through screens. Like if you, if you like, there's this like psychological test, if you read the word yawn And then like see pictures of people yawning and like, like keep your mouth open while doing stuff and stuff. Like you are like more likely by a lot to yawn.

Actually, interesting side thing. You know, I actually, I studied neuroscience as one of my, you know, side things a long time ago. And it actually had to do with the way your mirror neurons work with this whole, you know, you see someone yawn, it makes you yawn. And if you are an actual psychopath, So somebody whose mirror neurons are not working correctly and therefore do not feel empathy, you also don't have that automatic yawn reflex. So look around your friends and if you see someone who never yawns when other people do, you should probably look out for them. They might be a psychopath.

Interesting. I read about that, another one of those tells was the person will not blink at you if you're in a conversation with them, look deeply into their eyes and notice whether they're blinking or not. And if they're not, and you can control that, right, by over-blinking yourself. And then when you see nothing back, you know, okay. And I faced one of these people having done that research a little bit too late, unfortunately. Um, but that's a whole different story. Yeah. You do come up against these people from time to time and, um, they end up in general, generally in positions of power. Because they have no empathy and they can do the bidding of their masters.

Yep. Um, yeah, I think it kind of ties into the whole theme of this discussion that, you know, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And it's very easy for people who are, who lack empathy to, you know, fall into those kinds of, uh, corrupt power structures. Just, it's, it's natural and simple for them.

Does it work with smiles as well, Sam?

I think so. Yeah.

Gotcha. Yeah. Right. I'm gonna ask you guys the final question.

Yep.

Do you know the final question?

I know the final question.

Okay. Do you wanna ask it?

If you had one orange pill, who would you give it to?

Yeah, close. If you had one orange pill left to give to somebody. Who would you give it to and why?

I'd give it to the world's largest influencer that influences the most people because they would influence more people, which would orange pill them without an orange pill. It would make them think about it. And then the majority of people would be Bitcoiners. And then these people would like tell their family and friends like, hey, did you know like this influencer is it? And like, me too. And like, I've learned about it and it would just spread. If a famous person, like the most famous person does it, it will most likely spread.

That's a really good answer because my, I was actually thinking along the same lines, but I was thinking politicians. I was trying to think who's the most anti-Bitcoin politician I can think of. And then, you know, basically use them as the answer for similar reasons, because if the most anti-Bitcoin person does it, then you know, that's going to influence everyone who kind of, you know, follows them and cares about what they say and so on. So if I had to think of a different answer, then I don't know, Mickey Mouse for similar reasons actually, you know, orange-filled Disneyland and, you know, that's going to— imagine if Disney, you know, it's quite simple. Imagine if Disneyland, Disney World, all the Disney franchises started accepting Bitcoin and made it like the standard money in Disneyland.

Yeah.

What would that do for the world?

Well, yeah, of course. Or of course they make like a Bitcoin princess. Yeah. And they release a new Bitcoin princess movie.

Do a, you know, the next Disney princess is a Bitcoiner. That would be, uh, yeah.

She, she wears an orange dress with like white bees on it.

Yeah.

We should totally make that. Yes. Orange Baloozie.

There you go. You girls have got a project. That could be, uh, part of your, your, um, virtual artwork as well.

Yep. You know what's crazy though? Like, I used to be really into making dresses, drawing them. I'm just like, make a dress, make a pattern, color it in, and voilà, a runway dress. I thought I was gonna be a runway model. That was like my phase for like a few weeks, and then I was like, I don't do it anymore.

Yeah. Um, one of my classmates actually is like that. We, uh, we were cleaning the science tables on the last day of school and we were like supposed to design a bridge. And then she just got on top of the table while I'm cleaning it and she just walks down there like a runway model and like everybody was like looking at her while we were all trying to clean the table and we had to clean after her dirty shoes and she thought she was so amazing after doing that. In reality, everybody was annoyed at her that we had to clean more.

Yeah.

Don't be runway models, girls.

Yeah.

That's, that's, that's a fiat existence right there. Anyway, it's been great to hang with you both and thank you for everything you're both doing in the Bitcoin space. Ben, how can people come and find you? And do you just want to give a quick shill to Swan and, and what you're doing over there with those guys?

So sure. So people can find me on Twitter as Ben_Dewaal. That's D-E-W-A-A-L. So it's just my name. As for Swan, I actually, so as of 2 weeks ago, I'm no longer with Swan. I actually left Swan just, yeah, amicably. But yeah, you know, right now I'm talking to a few companies about some different things. So I'm probably going to be an advisor on a couple of interesting new projects, which I won't talk about yet, but You know, there's some things coming up there and yeah, we'll see what happens. But yeah, Twitter's the best place to find me.

Excellent. And you will, good luck on everything going forward. And Sam, how can people find you if they want to reach out?

Telegram and/or Twitter is best for me. @samthebtckid, all lowercase, all in one word. Just Sam, S-A-M, the B-T-C kid. Exactly. Exactly that. Yeah.

All right, cool.

Trying to get myself Twitter.

Well, yeah, you, you, yeah. I, I, I need to get you a— Simon, need to get you a de-Googled Pixel phone. That's the problem. These guys don't have phones yet, so I want, I wanna start in the right place, you know? I don't wanna, uh, I wanna get, um,

Pixel phone.

Yeah, you do actually.

As for phones, I actually really suggest Apple phones because like you can have a lot of parental settings with those. Like I have downtime, I can't be on my phone at 3 AM watching TikTok. That's just physically not possible. It says like, hey, put in like a guardian's like password and stuff and like then you can do it. Sure. But like, I really can't figure out my guardian's

passwords. So yeah, walled gardens, walled gardens aren't great for, you know, when you want to have freedom over things, but actually when you want to control somebody else's device, a walled garden is kind of exactly what you want. So Apple Can be pretty useful for that.

But you can also just not have that setting, of course. And then like Apple phones are also pretty good. I think my favorite parental control though is that, um, you can see screen time and you can see how long kids were on things. Like, uh, this one day, uh, my dad asked me like, what, how did you spend like 3 hours on Discord today? Like, how, how you had school today? How? Explain. And I actually just forgot to shut my phone off and like left it lying somewhere for like 3 hours.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're all believing that one.

Exactly. Yeah, I have my phone somewhere.

Exactly. All right, guys. Well, good to hang out. Take care and we'll see you again soon, hopefully at another conference.

Yep.

Hopefully then. Okay.

Bye.

See you.

Well, guys, I hope you enjoyed that one with Ben and Sam, and thank you again, guys, for coming on the show. And thank you again, Sam, for being so brave and getting up on stage, first of all in El Salvador and then in BTC Prague. Any conference organizers, are you listening? Kids are here and they are here to stay, and they are here to inspire not only the adults that sit and watch them talk, but the other kids that are gonna start coming to more and more of these conferences. These should be family affairs. How do we make that happen? How do we make it more approachable to families? There certainly needs to be a strong look at prices of tickets. That is definitely something that needs to be addressed, I think, in the conference world to make sure that we can get it open to as many people as possible. The beauty of BTC Prague was it was a €9 entrance fee on the door to enter the exhibition center, which just had so many cool things going on, all Bitcoin-related. And they even had a little stage in there too, where they were packing that stage out with great, great speakers. That's where Lauren did her panel with myself and Joe and Giacomo, and they had some other great speakers up there on the stage. Stage as well. They had Nathan Day from BTC Map up there, Yoni Appelberg talking about his book, Niko Gilch, Ricky from the Bitcoin podcast, the Italian podcast, and so many, so, so many more. €9, guys, €9. So any conference people out there, if you're arranging a conference, make something like that happen where it's just very, very cheap for the general populace to get in, pay on the door, see the exhibitor, see the exhibitors, what's going on, who are the people in the space, what are the things, what are the services, what are the products, and listen to a few talks. This is how we get to, to more and more people. Anyway, let's hope that Bitcoin Kids Month in July is a success. Great initiative. Sam, and I've got more coming. So there's an interview coming up with a guy, a young man, Gen Z for BTC, just 14 years of age and ready to put his neck on the line to get up on stage to host panels, to give keynotes, to talk to adults and kids alike about Bitcoin. So this is where we need to go, guys. Anyway, thank you to everybody who supports the show, whether you're listening on fan counting, boosting, whether you're sharing with friends and family, it all goes a long way. I really appreciate that. Loved meeting many of you so far. We're halfway through the year already, met so many new people. Looking forward to meeting more of you. There's an upcoming weekend in Bristol, just outside of Bristol, the BTC Adventure Weekend. So we're all going along to that, really looking forward to seeing some old and new faces there. And of course, the Baltic Honey Badger in Riga is going to be a big one. You can use the code BITN to get 10% discount. Again, we're fingers crossed, all hoping to be there as well. And Liberty in Our Lifetime, really worth checking out, guys. Much cheaper than most of the mainstream Bitcoin-only conferences out there. It's worth you looking into it. 14th, 15th of October. Free Cities Foundation, which is run by Bitcoiners, by the way. And they invite freedom folk from around the world, different areas. They're building parallel structures, whether it's their education, in health, in community living. It's, it's a cool place to be, and you get to hang with some very, very, very cool Bitcoiners who you might have been following for a long time, who have been invited along to speak. But because it's it's a smaller conference, they're just willing to hang out, have a beer with you, and, you know, shoot the shit. It's, it's an amazing, amazing experience. And it's in Prague. Who doesn't like going to Prague? I mean, come on. So you can use the code BITN to get yourself a 10% discount off the Liberty in Our Lifetime. Get over to ConsenSys Network. Thank you guys for hosting this now on your YouTube channel. If you prefer to watch the interview, this one will be dropped on the ConsenSys Network YouTube channel as well. They're doing a brilliant job translating as many books as they can into as many different languages as they can. So if you've got friends who speak different languages you're trying to bring into the rabbit hole, check Consensus Network, go to their Bitcoin Bookshop website and find that book in that particular language. And let's get going, let's get this education on the roll. Everybody, thank you so much for listening. Check out mempool.space. Go get yourself a BitBox. Use Wasabi Wallet to up your privacy. That's all the shoutouts. They're all the companies that are happy and willing to support the show. You can stack with Swan Relay, Coin Corner, and Hodl Hodl. And appreciate you, and I'll look forward to the next show.