MBA2118 Extended Interview: Matt Giovanisci – Building a Crazy Successful Business On Your Own Terms

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Hey O welcome to the Hundred Doll r MBA Show. Business lessons you can count on every single day with our daily 10 minute business lessons for the real world.

I'm your host, your coach, your teacher Omar Zenholm. I'm also the co founder of Webinar.

Ninja, an independent software company I started.

With my co founder back in 2014 and today's episode is a special episode. Once in a while I sit down with an incredible business mind, extract their knowledge and share that conversation with you. It's an extended interview. Now these are a little bit longer than our typical episodes, but it's because.

They need to be.

It's a little bit of a change of pace of our regular episodes, but we'll be back to our short form episodes tomorrow. But for today, enjoy this one. I share with you my conversation with Matt Giovanisi. Matt is an old time friend. We kind of grew up together in the entrepreneurial space about a decade ago. And just like today's title states, Matt Giovanisi built a crazy successful business on his own terms and this is why I wanted to have him on the show. Matt does things that he wants to do the way he wants to do it. He's built a business around his own lifestyle and the way he wants to live. He doesn't Follow the traditional path. Instead, he carves his own, all while making a healthy living. This conversation is amazing and I can't wait for you to dive in. Let's get into it. Let's get down to business. Today's extended interview is with Matt Givenisi. Matt Giovanisi is an incredible, incredible entrepreneur. He has a highly successful blog, swim University, that makes over a quarter million dollars a year. But that's just the beginning. Along Matt's journey, he launched and ran an incredible podcast, highly successful personal finance podcast. He created rap videos to sell his content and his products. He actually created a rap album called Entrepreneur in 30, a software company. He created a coffee lovers website called Roasty and sold that business for a profit. He runs a site called moneylab Co where he shares his money making experiments and his latest project, Brew Cabin, all about home brewing beer. And he does this all with a small team of him and a couple other people. How does he do this? Why does he do this? Well, I get inside the mind of Matt Giovanisi in this conversation. We're going to dive into the conversation now, but I'll be back to wrap up today's episode and give my final thoughts.

Thoughts.

But for now, let's jump into the conversation with Matt Giovanisi.

Matt Giovanisi, awesome to have you here, man.

Dude. Thanks for having me, guys.

For those who are listening and don't know who Matt is, a little inside information. Matt actually is a big supporter of the show. Supported the Hunter LBA show from day one in August of 2014. He actually wrote the music to the theme song of the Hunter LBA show and was one of our first guest teachers. So he is near and dear to our hearts.

Wow, you're still using the theme music too?

Totally, man. That's my brand, dude. I love it. I love it. Matt's an old friend and Matt and I kind of started our entrepreneurial journey online together. He was living in New Jersey when I was living in New York. We kind of met together, met up a few times at conferences and just supported each other. And I love the journey you've been on. I've been following you from afar and kind of catching up as well. We were in a mastermind at a period of time together. And I want to talk a little bit about that journey. I want to talk a little bit about the choices you've made along that journey, which are hard choices and just some of the options that some of us as entrepreneurs may want to look at. And I'm going to be open and honest in this episode because over the years my business, my journey has gotten really complicated. It's just really complicated now. And Nicole and I are just like, oh, tired and want to simplify a little bit. So I want to get into that a little bit. But let's start a little bit with your first kind of baby business that you started because you worked at a pool, a store and then you started swim university. Tell us a little bit about swimming university.

So, yeah, I started at a pool store in Jersey as a 13 year old boy. Right. First summer job ever had and kept that going. I worked the summer there for like four or five years and then transition to another pool company because I had prior experience as a, you know, 17 year old. And then it was time to go to college and I, I didn't, I. Well, I tried twice for two weeks and it didn't work out for me because, you know, ironic. I tell the story very. I don't think I tell it frequently enough. But like when I was in college, I had this English teacher and I wrote this like satire piece and she gave me an F for it. Even though like, I tried really hard to like do it was composition, you know, English comp. So I was like trying to make the grammar perfect but trying to make it funny and it turned out and I got an F. And I'm like, why'd you, why'd you fail me? And she's like, well, because I didn't like the subject matter. I'm like, well, that's not what you're supposed to grade me on. And so I realized like, that's kind of like, okay, college isn't for my personality type. And I didn't really have a direction of like what I wanted to do with that degree. Like, I didn't know I was going to get a degree in communications, which I mean, I'm doing right now. And ironically, like the thing that I failed in high school and in college is the thing that I do for a living now.

So yeah, it's the one makes you money.

Yeah.

And.

And I, and in a weird way I kind of like, I'm glad I didn't get educated because like, I don't have that formal English, you know, like, writing style I have. Like, I write how I talk because that's all I know. And my grammar was, I mean, God awful, you know, up until maybe a few years ago. So. But yeah, I, I worked it in this pool store and then got into marketing with another bigger pool company and then started My, I started a website called Swim University and it basically was like, oh, I'm working at this pool store and I have this info. I've been, I know pools inside and out and I had all this information and then I, we, I was in a band and we needed a website. So I learned website design real quick and then kind of married those two worlds. And like, this could be a, you know, I was like, I wanted to start an affiliate site like back in 2004. Right. So a long time ago.

Is that even before WordPress?

Yeah, it was before WordPress. Yeah.

Wow.

Because. Because my first site was all. Yeah, my first site were all individual HTML.HTML files.

Yeah. I was going to say you were rubbing two sticks together. Yeah, yeah.

I had built. I actually, so I was, I was on Dreamweaver. Remember Dreamweaver? And I, I was building my own version of WordPress. I didn't know it because WordPress didn't exist. I was building a CMS for my website so I could work on, you know, not have to like create HTML files and. Yeah. So, but I mean, I started that and I was again, this is me terrible at English part time, you know. You know, doing every dirty trick in the book to try to get traffic, you know, because this is before, you know, the wild west of Google and SEO. So it took me seven years to even make a living. And when I say living in quotes, I mean like 40 grand a year revenue.

So you were like, that wasn't what.

I was making for.

Yeah.

For seven to eight years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I did a lot of things wrong and I had no one really to, like there were people around, you know, like in 2008, there was a lot of people that came up, you know, who, who taught me well. But their tactics didn't work for my specific industry because they were like, you know, hey, you need to get into forums and know, find other people who, who run a site like yours and get in front of their audience. And I'm like, there is no, but I'm the only guy out here doing this. So it was, it was all trial and error for me for a long time. But had I put, had I been like, didn't treat it as a side hustle and wanted to treat it as a. I mean, I, I wanted to, but I, I, you know, it's a little bit of laziness in there too. So it's like.

Yeah.

So it took a while and you know, and a lot of shiny objects come and go and, you know, so you're not 100 focused on this like one thing, but there was a year I was laid off from my job and I decided to take that opportunity to, you know, sell my belongings, sell my condo or rent my condo out and, and go full time on like this. I'm going to make this my future.

Right.

I'm gonna do whatever it takes. And that's the first year I did 40 grand in revenue.

I love that. A couple of things I love about what you just mentioned. Number one, you're one of the best writers I know in terms of blogging, in terms of copywriting, because of your informal way of speaking, you are writing. I should say you write as you speak, which is really easy to kind of grasp. I think Neville Medora who teaches copywriting mentions this is like this caveman voice where you just try to convey the information without trying to use flowerly language. So if you. Yeah, I mean when I go to your site like moneylab co and I read some of your blog posts, I read some of the stuff is just so creative, so hilarious. One of my favorite posts of all time is the one that you did with the parody of Arrested Development and how you split up shares and all that kind of stuff. And it was just a great article. And I would say your pieces are so hard to ignore. Like it's so hard for you not to be like this is brilliant and share it and things like that.

And yeah, that's by design.

Yes, it's by design. But is it because you're not trying to fit a mold or you're not trying to do something that is by the book? Are you just going for the fences? Like what exactly inspires you to be able to write a piece that is so. Because it's really in your face. I mean you use colorful language and you know, sure, it's not for everybody, but my point is, is that like it's. It's definitely different.

Yeah. And the same, you know this, the writing permeates even on Swim University and on other sites that I have. I just have this because I don't have formal training. Right. I. I don't use. I only use periods and commas. That's it. That's my. Like send in my grammar and so when in doubt, put a period on it, like just end the sentence, you know, like get it, get it done. So it. And I. What I found though was I started reading books that were like super condensed if you've ever read Rework. Right. Yes, that book. And then there was one before that called I Think, getting. Getting something. Getting heard, getting started. Getting something, whatever. And it was about sas, like early SAS stuff as written by the same dudes of the base camp guys.

Yeah.

And that one was ultra condensed. Like every sentence mattered. Like if you took the sentence out, the piece would be, it would be un. Like, you know, you wouldn't be able to read it. And so that I think I took that idea and I went, okay, I want every, Like, I'm not a writer. I'm not gonna sit there and prose out on you. Right. I'm, I wanna, I wanna get it. I want to get my message across in as little as words possible and as little grammar as possible so that you don't think I'm an idiot because I used a semicolon wrong or I added too many comments on sentence or like. Yeah, there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of self doubt preservation.

Yeah, yeah.

But also I use that to my advantage and for humor too.

Yeah. And also you're writing in a way that you love to read. Like you enjoy that kind of reading, that punching to the, to the point reading. I personally have a hard time with the opposite as well, where it's just like, get to the point already. I know. Like, I, I understand why this is important already. Tell me what now to do all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. I'm not Cormac McCarthy. I'm not trying to, you know, it's. I just, Yeah, I, I want, you know, I'm not Shakespeare. I don't want, I don't find writing to be this. The. I guess the way that, like, you know, you look at somebody who does something like very intricate, like a master carpenter, like it's very. I mean, that's not even a good, that's not even example. But the idea of like overly done, you know, or you're like, wow, that guy's really showing off that he knows how. He knows the English language inside and out.

Right.

Yeah. Whereas I don't. And so I sort of go, I don't use 10 words because I don't know 10 words. Right. So my. And so it does. It happens to be very. It fits the mold for the Internet. Right. I may not have a novel come out anytime soon or even like a business centric book, but I think that. Yeah. And it also, you know, just to be honest, it's like that what you see on the website is not me sitting down, you know, doing a, doing a writing pass and then going back and doing like one pass at editing and going like, cool, it's done. It's five or six editing passes, and then I give it over to Steph and she likes it and pulls things apart and, like, challenges me on certain, like, paragraphs and says, oh, you don't even need this whole section. Let's move this section up here. So, like, there's a lot of craftsmanship that I take. You know, the way that I think of about a blog post is the way I would think about designing a website or.

Yeah.

Or, you know, building even a, you know, a piece of software. It's. It's like all these building blocks matter and they can be done at different times and they can just be rearranged and fit and cropped and, you know, shaped and all these things.

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One of the other things you mentioned is that you started swimu because you had experience in swimming pools and swimming pool care. You worked at a store. I want to just talk a little bit about that because a lot of people think about starting A business. They think about starting their first business, and they think they have to be totally passionate in love, know it inside and out, like, they're the biggest fanboy or fangirl about this topic and not really focus on where can they add the most value. And I think that was a great little insight that you had back in the day where it's like, hey, I know this stuff. This is kind of where I can maybe add value to the world or make a buck out of. Was that intentional? Yeah.

If you think I'm passionate about pools, you're wrong. I mean, there's nothing. I don't own a pool. I don't want a pool. I don't even like swimming in pools. So it's like, it's not my. You know, I just happened. That was my first summer job, and I got really good. I like learning, you know, and, you know, when it comes to, like, when the outcome is income, right? Like, I don't like learning when the outcome is grades.

Who gives a right?

But when it's like, dollar bills, I'm like, yeah, learn all day. Because that made me better at my job, and it gave me a lot of power, too, which I. I talk about in the sense that, like, imagine being, like, 13 or 14 years old, like a little boy, right? And your friends, parents are coming to you for advice. That's weird, right? But that is a power trip. So, like, of course I wanted to, like, devour all the pool knowledge I could get, because when an adult comes in and goes, what do I do with my pool? I'm like, listen, you know, Bob, sit down.

Let me.

Let me.

Let me.

Let me calm you down. You want a glass of water? Let me. You know, let me show you. Let me teach you a little bit about chlorine brain, you know, so it's just like.

It's a.

It was a.

It's. Yes.

I am not passionate about pools. I am passionate about learning and about get. You know, maybe teaching that to.

To people who are.

Who struggle with that. And forever, you know, I'm a homeowner, so, like, I get it. Like, you move into a house, there's something you never heard of, and you struggle with it. So, like, yeah, you want to turn to an expert. So I like that. And when I talk to people who, like, want to start businesses, a lot of them, they kind of go for, like, what's gonna. What's the niche that's gonna make me the most money? You know, like, what's that? And I'm like, okay, like, Did I think pools was that? No, but, like, you know, and it's still. I don't. It definitely isn't. There's only, like, 10 million pools in the United States.

It's seasonal, all that stuff.

Yeah, it's seasonal. Yep. There's another. The other. The other business I'm in is home brewing. There's only a million home brewers in the United States. Like, it's a small market. Right. So it.

It's.

I. I kind of think, like, yeah, it's. It's. It was. The thing that I have is, like, the idea of passion mashing, which is like, a phrase that I came up with, which is this idea that, like, yes, I have. I'm passionate about, like, music. Right. I'm passionate about making videos. Like, I'm passionate about, like, the creative arts. And I have this talent or this skill or this knowledge that. That I just want to marry those two worlds together. Which is, you know, why I have a pool care rap video or why I have, you know, a YouTube. Like, I have the biggest pool YouTube channel.

Right.

Because it's like, I'm a video guy and I just happen to know about pools. Is it sexy and fun to work on? No, it's not. It's not. It's not. You know, a passion, like home brewing is a passion of mine and video, you go and watch that channel, you'll see that, like, oh, my God, these videos are great. Does it make money? No, it's not, because I'm not. It's. It's. It's passion on both ends. So, yeah, I think it's. That's kind of where it. Where it all comes from. And, you know, I don't know how to end that answer.

Yeah. But that kind of leads me to where I want to go next, which is, you know, if I. If I look at your entrepreneurial career from afar, I mean, I don't live with you, Matt, but if I. If I look at it the last five, six, seven years.

You did a.

Lot of different things. And I think this is very common when you get traction in one area. Like, this has happened to me and other people. I know where you do well. And you say, well, what else can I do? Like, you know, you started a software company, Lasso. At some point, you had a huge podcast list of. Money Matters is one of the biggest, you know, financial advice podcasts out there. Totally dominant, which. Which is really hard. It was super competitive and still very competitive to have a very good podcast in our. You know, you also were going into you know, home brewing. You also had Roasty, which was a coffee roast, coffee roasting site and I'm sure some other things I missed. But recently I've been reading some of your articles and it sounds like you kind of got that out of your system and you kind of like now realize, okay, these are the things that really move the needle for me. These are the things that really help my fuel my lifestyle and the way I want to live and all that kind of stuff. And you kind of consolidated. But I want to talk a little bit about, like, how does that feel to be able to start something really successful and then let it go and let it go for valid reasons. I want to, I want to walk me through that whole scenario.

Oh, that's a great question. It feels fine. I'm okay, right? Like even in the moments, you know, I walked away from, listen, money matters, something that I helped build from the ground up. And then, you know, watched it flourish without me, right? And watched it make a lot of money without me. Lasso. Same exact thing both with Andrew. I've also watched, I also sold Roasty and saw that make friggin, maybe 10, 15, 20x what I was making on it, you know, and in all of those decision moments, I never thought about, oh, like, how much money am I going to be wasting? Like how much money am I going to be losing? Because what I ended up getting back is my time and time is more valuable than money. I mean, it just is, right? So I feel like in all of those scenarios, even the Roasty example, the one I actually like, I did make money on, on that I was just, you know, there was a point where I, I made the site kind of as a side experiment to just see if, you know, Swim University was a fluke or if this was something that I was actually capable of, of doing. And, and it turns out like I was capable of doing it. So it's like, okay. And then when it came time to like, I feel like I'm doing, I'm pulled too many directions. You know, Swim University has always been my flagship and so whenever I was taking time away from that, it felt like, well, this is, this. I don't really. I mean, I like Roasty. I think it's a good brand. I'm glad it's doing well, but it's, I was never going to take it there. Like I was going to stifle it as a person because I don't, I don't want that growth. I don't want those employees. I don't Want.

That's exactly what I was going to ask you. Like, yeah, that. Like, I read this article from Laura Roeder. It was basically a summary of why she sold me, Edgar, and how she went through that whole process. And a part of that article talks about how she knew it was time because what the business needed didn't align with what she wanted in her own personal life. And in terms of the growth of the team and managing 50, 60, 100 people, she kind of brought it to where it could go. Like, this is my limit, you know, and this is kind of my sweet spot. And that's when she was like, this is the time to sell. And she actually sold at a perfect time, you know, before the recession, all that kind of stuff. But the point is, is that. Did you feel the same way about your projects?

I. I definitely.

Whether you let it go or you sold it. Yeah.

Yeah.

I.

Yes. At the right time for me. Every time. Yes. And I am not. I have no regrets doing that. In fact, I have. What's the opposite of having no regrets? Like, the. The. Like, I'm glad I did it.

Yeah. Right.

I learned a couple of times just by dipping. You know, I'm constantly A guy who, like, dips his toe, kind of feels it out, you know, gives it a fair shake, doesn't. But I don't go all in. And when I feel like, oh, man, this isn't. This isn't hitting right. This doesn't feel well, I'm a little uneasy. I'm out. Like, I just. I. I cut and run because I'm like, I don't have. You know, ain't nobody got time for that kind of, like, mentality again. Time is the. The currency. And for me, because, you know, life is short. So, yeah, I. I felt like I got out. I. I definitely lost out on money. Like, don't. You know what I mean? Like, I definitely. But my life is exactly how I want it to be right now. And I'm so glad I didn't take that direction, because I probably would have quit, you know, a year from then, and I would have had more money, but I would have been much more miserable. Right. If. If that makes sense.

Totally. And I remember we had a conversation maybe five or six years ago where, when you moved to Colorado, and you sent me a picture of your view and, you know, your patio having coffee. And I. I. At that moment, I was just like, matt, you made it. That's it. Anything.

I pass.

This is gravy, you know, like.

And that's how I feel.

And that's great that you know your number, you know, your. You know, what. What, for you is happiness.

Yeah.

Dollar value. I. Yeah. I didn't have a dollar value. I know there's. There is a thing, right. Where it's like, you have your enough number and whatever that is. That's a scary. I don't like that metric.

Yeah.

Because that metric can go the other way.

Right.

Where it's. You know, so. So for me, it was. I had a. I had a. A singular vision. Like, a singular vision which was, you know, standing on a wooden deck, looking at mountains with coffee. How do. How do I achieve that? You know, you could do that many ways, right. You could run an Airbnb for 365 days, you know, but that was the. The goal. When I achieved it, I'm like, everything from here on out is.

Yeah.

Is. Is icing on the cake. Right. I can only go. You know, and if I go down, it just means I don't have that house anymore. But I achieved it. Right. So. Yeah, that. That I think was. And, you know, it's. It's funny because it's like, that's not a hard thing to get. You know, you can get that. I could have got it in the Poconos, right, in. In Pennsylvania, but I chose Colorado because that's where I wanted to live. But.

Yeah.

And I moved here, you know, before I was even making a hundred thousand dollars a year. Like. Yes. I was still like, you know, you know, $100,000 a year in revenue. I remind myself, like, that was not my money. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I. I do feel like I got to where I needed to get as a person. The business right now is not even. Like, it's, it's something to do. It obviously pays the bills and.

Right.

But, like, whatever. I, you know, I. I've. Yeah. I hate. I hate saying, like, I'm. I'm not done.

Yeah.

But I'm ready to be if the Nick now I'm in a spot where if the opportunity comes and I were to sell it, depending on what the price is, I would. I would be happy. Like, kind of like retiring for good.

Yeah. And I want to talk a little bit about. You talked about time and how valuable time is, the flexibility that you have right now with your current business setup. I always. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like we're around the same age. I'm 42. We've been at it for a very long time. You've been doing this for two decades, and we kind of get to this point where it's just like, we're just a little bit fatigued. We're just a bit tired of the work, of what it takes to continue to build and grow your business. And I feel like at some point that whole grinding and working hard and you know, doing 15 hour days, you just, it's not sustainable. So what have you done in your business where you said, hey, I want to take a week off, I could take a week off. I have a little more flexibility of my time. What hard decisions did you have to make to build that kind of lifestyle?

Oh, well, sacrificing growth, that was one. You know, I am not a person that follows, like, we need to, you know, be 10 better every month or 10 better every year. Like, I don't care. You know, I, I, my metric for, you know, is the business doing well is can I pay everybody? You know, can I pay myself? If I get extra distribution at the end, that's just extra money for me. But like the family is taken care of. So, you know, and that's, that's that. Right? But I don't feel the grind. I just, I, I, I try to find new ways to like, breathe life into what I do, which is what I recently did. And, and I'm doing even today. Like, you know, today is, you know, I'm at a, I'm at a photo shoot and a video shoot because it's fun. You know, I bought a drone because it's fun and like where, you know, it's, it's work, sure, but it's like, it's a week. And the other thing too, I, I think about when I, and this is more like a tactical way of thinking about online business is I think of everything as like, projects, like finite projects. Now I hire for things that aren't finite.

Right.

You know, so for example, you know, we, we're supposed to create a new video every, every week to feed the algorithm. We're supposed to create a new reel on Instagram every day to feed the algo. We have to create a new blog post, you know, once a month, every week, every two weeks, whatever it is. I can't do those things. I learned I can't do those things. I can do them for maybe a month, maybe two months, maybe six months. And then I'm like, okay, creatively I'm, I'm toast. Right? It's just not how my brain works. So those are the jobs that I hire for. But what I like to do is like develop like processes or I like to, like, right now, like we moved into, like we've, we've created a whole new arm of our business. Like that whole adventure was like two years of fun and new life into the company. And I get to create new products and put them on the shelf and go, okay, that product's done and now I can work on the next one. That product might take six months, it might take three weeks. And so as long as all of my work is projectized, I can grow and have everything else sort of not on autopilot because I do interject myself in those situations. But the things that require consistency, I either get a robot to do it or I hire someone else to be robotic about it.

What I found is the most stressful part of running a business, especially with me with software and all that kind of stuff is deadlines and meetings. It's like anything I have to be at a certain time or I have to meet it. That's where the pressure builds up. It's like, you know, I can't take the day off because if I don't do the work today, then it's gonna have the double work tomorrow. Or if I miss this meeting, then they're not gonna know what to do for the rest of the week. Or, you know, like all that stuff is what causes a lot of stress. Somebody I spoke to recently, Ayman Abdullah, who's, who was the president of AppSumo, and he talks about like, you know, that is the biggest stress killer. And if you want to scale your business at any point, the only way to do it is to be allergic to work, which he calls allergic to work.

Right?

Or basically you got to be like the, he calls it like the camp counselor where you hold your coffee cup and your hands are full because you're holding your coffee cup and you just got to point to things and say, you do this, you do that kind of thing. Because otherwise, you know, it's, it's really hard because you're too much involved in the day to day. The problem I think you and I have at some level, maybe even more you. So you, Is that you want to get involved, you want to do things yourself, you know, especially the crazy.

Yeah, I don't want to work. Yeah, I don't want to work on the business. I want to work in the business.

Obviously I love it.

Right. I, I just get in front of it.

I have to work.

Yeah, I have to work on it too. Right? Like somebody's gotta work on it. But the way that we, the way that I Kind of look at that is like, I just, I don't, I hate. I'm not a pointer. I'm not a, I'm not a guy that's like, you do this, you do that. I'm. And I'm just a guy who points at people and tells them to do things and then manages them. I hate being a manager. I tried it. I just hated having Skype calls and.

Meetings.

And I hated meetings when I worked a regular job. Right. I would always get out of them. You know, I'm like, I'm like, you know, my boss would have like four six hour meetings, you know, all day Monday. And I would go. And he would be like. And I'm like, look, I can't sit here for four hours. I'll come in for my part. And then I'm out. I got work to do. And whenever I use that excuse. So that always worked. I'm like, I don't have time for this meeting. I have shit to do, man. Like for your business.

Yeah.

You know, get me in and out of this. So, yeah, I don't, I don't like it because it's. I, I don't like planning, I don't like brainstorming all of those things. Like, it feels very un, you know, unproductive. I mean, it's a necessary part of a lot of the businesses, but I hate those parts. I like literally getting my hands dirty and like, you know, designing a new label for a product or you know, creating, you know, editing a video for a Facebook ad or, you know, and it's changed. Like my, my job is changes, I'm nimble. I decide what I want to work on. I don't have a consistent thing that pops up every day that's like, you got to do this. You know, the only thing I really do is like I send an email every once in a while to my list and multiple lists. So those are the things I have to do, obviously, but they're not, they're. They're small. They're small. Gas, snacks, tolls. This trip is draining my wallet.

Yeah, but we'll be with family.

You're in a good mood. What's your deal? What's my deal?

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Podcast a big reason why I wanted to have this conversation with you today is because you know you're doing well. You know you're, you know, you're very public about your numbers on MoneyLab Co and you know you're doing well over six figures and you're comfortable and you're doing it your way, which is actually very refreshing to me personally, because I run the show, the 100 MBA show, which I absolutely love, is my creative outlet. It's a beast on its own. But I also run the software company Webinar Ninja, which demands so much of me and so much of my team and things like that, because it's just the nature of this type of business. And recently Nicole and I have a lot of talks about, like, how can we step away from the responsibilities as much as possible and empower people on our team and things like that. But it's, but you can't do that with any sacrifice. You have to sacrifice something. Like you said, growth, like sacrifice, you know, and I'm in a hyper competitive space and all that kind of stuff. So these conversations that we're having right now is super helpful to me. And one of the things that come to mind because we both kind of in a market where a lot of things have changed recently, and I know that recently you changed a bit of the way you earn money on Swim U because affiliate commissions, you know, changed. They kind of pulled the rug under you, Amazon and all that other stuff. And you kind of had a good thing going until it didn't go. Yeah. So when that happened, did you want to like, wait it out or did you say like, wait, let me see if this is, maybe this is just a dip or did you just like, no, I gotta change my course, I gotta do something else, I gotta earn money another way. And I know that you started to launch your own products, right?

Yeah, I Yeah, I didn't even see the writing on the wall. Like, I'm not a soothsayer. I'm not, I'm not a predictor. I'm not Nostradamus. I hated the idea of affiliate marketing. I don't, I, I, the only reason I even did it from day one was because I didn't have my own products to sell. And that was a way to make money. But when I first started Swimming University, I thought, okay, that'll be extra money. But where I'm really going to make my money is display ads, you know, like adsense. Like that's going to be, you know, it's going to be high traffic, that kind of thing, you know, and, and possibly one day opening up an E commerce store or a retail store or something. And I, so, so since then, I mean, I got into affiliate marketing and I was good at it, but I felt really bad about it. I don't. I. The idea that someone else is paying me a commission and they don't really have to, right. Any day they could just snap their fingers and just like cut me off and there's nothing I can do about it. I don't work for that company, whatever. So that, that lack of control. And I'm a control, I'm not. When I say control freak, I mean that, like, I don't need to control everything in my business. I don't need to, you know, I'm not a, like micromanager, but I like being in control of a lot of things in my life. I like driving my car. I don't like being a passenger. You know, I like, I don't like flying for that reason. So the fact that I didn't have control over my business, you know, and somebody could go, oh, you know what? We were paying a 7%, but now it's 3%, you know, good luck, idiot. It's like, that' not a business. That's not a business. Since I have no control over that. Like, I have no control over my growth besides getting traffic. And the same thing with paid ads. What am I going to. I'm leaving it to somebody else. Somebody else to like, decide how much money they're willing to pay me for just putting a. It's stupid. It makes no sense. It's not a business. It's extra money. I always felt that way. So I started in 2014 creating my own products. Took me a long time to get there, you know, maybe because I was afraid, but I, I did it. I started with an ebook and it eventually moved into two ebooks and then it moved into courses, and then it moved into four courses. And, and then, you know, affiliate marketing was always there. But then here comes Amazon saying like, we're gonna cut you, you know, from 7%, 8% down to 2, 3%. And in my line of work in my industry, there's not a lot of other companies that are doing affiliate marketing for a pool product. So I'm kind of sitting, I guess I'm stuck just earning my 2 to 3%. But you know what? I'm so glad that it. I was, I was preparing beforehand.

Yeah.

And the digital products had overtaken. Like as soon as I get cut, they made up for that. Like the revenue made up for that immediately. So I was like, like, you know, I, and I would have accepted the dip, you know, if I, you know, I got cut. I mean, I, we're talking like $150,000. Like that was a huge hit to my bottom line. But the digital products, because of all the work that I had put into it over the last like four years, had like, you know, eventually paid off. And so, and still I was, I'm always like, you know, and being small and being like, you know, a team of three people, I've always had the ability to move quickly. And the one thing that has never changed in this business is putting out quality free blog posts packed with information, putting out quality videos packed with information. Like those things never change. They still get you traffic, you know, they still get you eyeballs. And I just need to died now. My job is to convert those eyeballs into sales, you know, so that's, that's really all, that's, that's just what it's all about. So, you know, and even now is, you know, do I think courses are, you know, digital products like that, are they, you know, maybe they could have their, you know, heyday and like kind of come and go, know. But you know, they're definitely gonna, they're mine. So like, you know, I get to control that and I'm sure they're gonna stick around, but I started to like, pre think about that and move into different areas and, and this area that I'm moving into is probably where I will like, it'll be the end of like, you know, revenue shifting because it's like the most, you know, that's the most legit, I guess, you know. Understand. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, totally. And I mean, I know that you kind of did over time, but it is kind of scary still because, you know, your one stream of income through the affiliate commission was kind of steady and that's what you relied on. And it's kind of. You got comfortable there, you know, and it's easy for you.

I definitely had panic attacks. Yeah, it's like, it was real, you know, like. But I, because I thought I was going to get hit harder than I did and, and I was just like, well, yeah, thank God I was, I was, you know, forward thinking enough and future proofing enough and, and again, like it's all self preservation. Right? Because the, the, the good part about being small because you know, one, I don't like being a manager, so I had to stay small. It's like, okay, dude, max, three people. What are the most important parts of the business? Like get super clear on that, you know, and if you guys just do that, that consistently like business is going to be fine.

Exactly.

And that's, that's essentially where we are right now. It's like, look, we got our little pockets and we still like try, you know, we still dip our toes here and there, you know, little things if we, if we can manage it. But yeah, the goal for the whole business is like for everyone to work less, not for everyone to work harder and like longer to grow faster. Like it's to, it's to what's the bare minimum that we have to do as a, as a company in order to continue to grow. But not by like, like you know, 10x every year. You know, it's like, yeah, not even 1x 0.5x. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, I really love the point you're making in terms of, you know, it's actually not a lot of things. You gotta just everybody's business is different. You got to look at like what, what do I actually got to do to fulfill my promise to my customer and make sure that I'm running the business smoothly. It's usually a handful of things and sometimes we overthink things and we think we got to do XYZ and all this stuff and I gotta hire an agency for this thing and this thing. And a lot of that is just you assuming you need to do that because everybody else is doing that or that's the next step. One of the things I love about the way you set up your business is that yeah, you have a small team and yeah, you do a lot of the work yourself, but this minimizes a lot of your risk. Like there's a lot of people realize there's a lot of risk involved as you hire more people. Like as your Team grows. Like an employee can make a mistake and cost you a hundred thousands of dollars. They could send the wrong email, they can make the wrong decision, they can push the wrong code. There's a million things that can go wrong once it's out of your hands. And I'm not saying this so people could feel afraid to delegate, but you have to also be honest with people like, yeah, you're going to delegate, but there's risks involved when you do this, and you often need to look at your business and minimize. How can I minimize risk as much as possible and stay within budget and stay profitable and make sure that, like you said, I could pay everybody and everything is moving smoothly. I think sometimes a lot of us, especially I have found that, you know, some of the people that I speak to on Twitter and things like that, especially people that are a little bit younger than me, maybe 10 years younger than me, you know, their, their appetites are quite large and they're like, I want to dominate the world. And I'm like, you know, everybody wants to be a billion dollar company. And it's like, you know, there's. There's only, you know, 10 billion dollar companies in the last 10 years or whatever it is, you know, like, you know, well, you're. You're asking for trouble is what I always say. You know, you're asking.

Yeah, and I thought a lot about this because, you know, there. And, and you know, I'm in an industry that is, you know, I'm sure, you know, maybe billion dollar industry. I don't know, I've never looked it up. But I don't have that ego, whatever that is, that drives people to be like the biggest thing or like the thing. I don't. Whatever that mechanism is, I don't have it. I do have a mechanism that says, like, I want to be respected for the thing that I do. Right. That's all. I just, I just want people to go, like, good on you, man. Like, that was. That's cool that you do that. Or like, that, you know, I don't need. And you obviously can get that validation being like Bezos, right, Like, oh, good on you, man. Like, or, you know, that comes with some, like, backlash as well. But yeah, I don't want a big company. Like, I never wanted a big company. I, like, I grew up in mom and pop businesses, right? I don't want to own size, like Comcast. Like, I don't need the, like, I don't need the penthouse. I don't need the, like, like mansion. I don't want a helicopter. I could die in one of those.

Yeah.

You know, like, also I gotta take care of it or I gotta hire somebody to take care of the helicopter. Like, I don't, you know, there's, that's the thing is like, okay, like, for example, like, I'm so rich, I'm so busy, I'm so freaking important that I need a personal assistant. Right? There are people, you know, in Hollywood that have like teams of people that.

Like work for them.

And I'm like, like, I have to manage as an empath, I guess. Like, I have to manage all their feelings and I have to like, make sure they're cool. Like, I have to like, you know, I, I don't. That's, that's a lot of work.

Remember their birthdays.

A lot of like, yeah, it's a lot of emotional work and a lot of like. And I, and I'm not saying that like I'm, I'm this like, woo, woo hooty toity person. But like I, I learned that like I was, I would feel, I feel bad when people don't feel taken care of or connected or whatever the thing is. And so like, whenever I think about buying even anything new in my home, I'm like, well, I gotta take care of that now or I gotta pay somebody else to take care of it. Like, that's just more. It doesn't, it's not necessarily better. Not that I'm a minimalist. I am definitely not a minimalist. I own a brewery in my garage. Like, it's not, it's, it's, it's, it's extravagant. But like, yeah, I mean the, I kept thinking about my business and like, how do I downsize the people and maximize the output without maximizing the work? Which is a really complex problem. But it's, there's a lot of like process tricks that I think about all the time of like, it's really about, I think what I love the most. And I think going back to what we first talked about in writing and he mentioned that like I'm so insecure about my writing that like I barely put enough down and then I just edit for days, like multiple passes. I think I treat my business the exact same way where I'm like, I don't want to do more business. I want to optimize this so much that this tiny little thing is producing. So is like a such a big impact. Right? That is way cooler to me and a way better story for me to tell. Like, you know, when like I Can't wait for a company to come in and sit, like, evaluate me and try to buy me, and then they say, wait, how many employees are you doing this with?

Yeah.

Oh, like, we could never do that. There's no way in hell we could operate your size business with three people. I want to challenge that as much. That is, like. Like, the coolest thing I can think of doing as a person. To be like, I'm pulling a magic trick.

Yeah.

And it's. And that's a. That's a fun experiment and optimization tactic that, like, that gets me up in the morning, to be honest.

Yeah. And I am. I'm also impressed by that. Like, I'm impressed by people that can get the most out of what they have. I'm always, like, kind of gobsmacked at, like, when I read things. Like, you know, base Camp has, like. Like 200,000 users.

Like, what?

Really? Like, they have a team of, like, 50 people or something like that. Like, what. How. What's going on here? You know, I'm a Basecamp user, and, like, one of the things that I always go back to is, like, they. They rarely update the software. Like, the software has basically been the same for, like, I don't know, six, seven years. They even don't even put a new coat of paint. Like, there's not even nothing new, and yet they're rolling away. Everything's doing fine. They're. They're that company that people kind of knows about, but, you know, they're. They're fine, you know? You know, the same thing with Nathan Barry and convertkit. Like, the dude is, like, had incredible success, but he's doing it with a pretty modest team given how much revenue he's making, you know, under 100 people. And, you know, they're making quite a significant amount of money every month. I think he's up to, like, 10 million now or something like that, which is. Which is pretty incredible, you know, like, if you think about how he's optimizing his team. And I think every business is different. I think, you know, what they're doing. Software versus content versus physical products. All that kind of stuff you mentioned earlier that you sold. Roasty, I want to just. If you could, if you mind sharing that process of selling a company, I think some people that are listening might be wondering, hey, I built a little side thing and want to sell it it, and some people kind of get lazy and just don't do anything with it. But maybe selling is an option and maybe sharing your store could be helpful.

It's funny you said selling a company. I don't, I didn't look at it that way. I was just selling an asset, right? It's like, it's like selling a car, you know, Even though a car is not really an asset, but, like, it's this thing that I built. And I was in debt at the time. I was $40,000 in debt. Not like, not personal debt, business debt debt. And I don't like being in debt as a person and as a business. So I was like, you know, like, how am I going to get out from under this? You know, and, and because I would eventually get out from underneath it because we have a seasonal business at the time, I just felt uncomfortable and I'm like, well, I could unload this site because I'm. I don't. I know I'm not going to take it where it needs to go. I know it needs to talk about Keurig machines and all those automatic coffee machines. And I just wasn't gonna do that because I just had a little bit of a coffee integrity. So I was like, all right, I'm taking this as far as I'm gonna take it. It's a great site. And so I put it up. I did private stuff. So, like, I did everything myself. I didn't hire a broker. Everyone. When you say put it up, would.

You put like a micro acquire? Like, what do you mean?

No, I didn't put it up on any major website. I basically just put it out to my list and I put it out. There was a, a Facebook group that I was a part of that people that bought and. Okay, I put together a Word document with all the like, information in it and like, really made a nice document. Like, I was nice and designed. Like, I was. I put together like a hell of a presentation, right, to sell this site and set my price, which I think at the time was a 3 or 4x multiple. So, like, if, you know, if the business was making fifteen hundred dollars a month, which is. Yeah, it's not. I wasn't making a ton of money. It was before Amazon, you know, cut the commissions and. But I ended up selling it for $55,000 to a guy that I had spoke, you know, he, he. I don't, I don't even know how he found me. It might have been through Twitter, it might have been through whatever. But, like, I put it out just into the ether, right? I had a small email list of about 1500 people that were kind of in that world. I had a Twitter following of about 3,000 people. I had this Facebook group that was maybe a hundred guys, but they were all, like, very active in that community. And I had talked to a broker as a per. As like a personal, like, introduction. Not that he was going to take my. Because it was small potatoes for him, but he gave me like the boilerplate, you know, contract and let me just have that. And, and so I just put together like a kick ass proposal and somebody, you know, was interested and I jumped on Skype with them. And then I physically, you know, did all the coding work to move it over to him and did an escrow.com, you know, money exchange. And yeah, it was, I mean, the process was very smooth. I wrote about it on Money Lab, so.

Nice.

It was smooth. Got the money, paid off my debt. I mean, one less thing to work on.

It's not chump change. This is reasonable money. I mean, that's, that's, that's an annual salary for a lot of people and a good little boost into your own savings or, you know, or putting into another business.

Yeah, it paid off. The debt that I had accumulated was from paying a lot of writers to write. I was trying to write a lot of content on some university very fast, like during, like the height of pool season. And, and of course we did write a lot of content, which is good. And then, you know, the season is over. And so yet I'm left with like, oh, man, I just kind of. I overdid it, hoping it would grow faster. And that's, you know, lesson. Like, that was a turning point in my, you know, thinking, which was like, I had five employees. I think at the time, most of them were writers. I tried to hire a COO to come in and like, manage them. And I just realized, like, I'm in freaking meetings every, every week and this is like. And I'm not doing anything. Like, yeah, and, and they're doing stuff. But, like, it felt very disconnected and I was just like, I don't. I'm gonna go do this other thing. Like, you guys, you guys are supposed to handle it. And, you know, and I think, you know, you can't just like, you know, leave people to their own devices and like, figure it out. Like, you have to. You're the guy who's been in this business the longest. Like, they need to be trained up, they need to be nurtured. And then you could nurture rock stars, which I definitely have done. And to the point where I nurtured people, where I was like, oh, we don't need all These other people, like, because you can do the job of all of them and in way less time. So, yeah, so that, all of that, like, trying to grow really fast, like spend money to make money, I took that and learned a lesson from it. I learned a few lessons and I realized, like, I don't, I don't like being a manager. I don't like being in debt. I don't, you know, I. You don't have to create all that content that fast. You can do it slowly over time. And so, yeah, that was, it was kind of a pleasant experience. And I still talked to the guy who, who owns it, and I still, like, you know, I was like, dude, I just, you know, somebody just sent, you know, people send me stuff. They're like, dude, you sold Rosie. Like, look how great it's doing. And I just go, dude, that's awesome. Because, like, yeah, I know I would have never done that. Like, I just wouldn't have done that, you know?

Yeah.

And it's like, you know, a lot of it's with. He's making money with ads and I'm, I still don't want to do that, you know, so I'm like, that's just not bag, baby. You know, as they say.

Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, you started something quite nice, you know, like, you're really good at branding. You're really good with, you know, creating a vibe on the site and the messaging and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, your DNA is still there, which is kind of nice. Like, as a proud papa looking at that site, it's kind of nice to have those things around.

Same with all the other ones that I, you know, I started branded up and then walked away from. Like, they're all still earning money and I'm not getting any of it. You know, it's like, do. I don't. I'm not bitter about that by any means. It's just I, I think I learned, hey, hey, Matt, stop doing that. You know what I mean? Like, you got your thing. You know what I mean? Stay in your lane. Do your thing. You got it. You don't have to go start other things. Because the thing I learned throughout this, you know, 20 year journey, right, and this is like, you know, I'm aware that I have talent, right? People have told me that my whole life. Life and the, the I've. And it's. This still happens to this day. About once every six months, somebody comes to me and wants to partner with me. They want to do something with me, and I have to now I now know because I've been burned so many times and I've given up so many times in, in partnerships and I want to be good at partnerships. It's something that I'm working on as a person. But I, I've just come to the conclusion that it's just like, okay, I, I, I work better on my own and you know, fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you kind of thing. And, and just like I'm done and I have to say no. And I've learned to say no to partnerships and I still entertain all of them. Like I still go, yeah, oh that, that could be a thing.

I can make money doing that.

Yeah, it's like, no, dude, keep your eye on the ball.

Yeah, right.

Like you have this thing and it's completely fine. But you know, as a entrepreneur who burns out because of like lack of creative spirit or whatever it is, you know, I want to change direction. So a lot of what I've tried to bake into my business is again that idea of projectization of, of allow yourself to do like a little mini project within the business to help it, you know, so that, that it, it's becomes an asset and it helps it grow in the future. This photo shoot we're doing is like a one week like push that will give us content for the next four years. Right. I did this four years ago and you know, the, the, the, the footage was shot in 1080p. Horizontal now needs to be 4K vertical, you know, so I love it, I love it, man. We're redoing it.

I mean, I've really enjoyed our friendship. I really enjoyed having our conversations over the years. One of the things I love about you as a person and as an entrepreneur is that you, you're really self aware. It's very rare actually to somebody who knows who they are and what they, what makes them happy. You know, like you were unhappy when you had to be in a partnership or kind of wrestle with your own priorities and all that kind of stuff. And a lot of us try to be something we're not. A lot of us try to. We think it's a deficiency. We think like, oh, I have to be this way in order to be successful. No, you don't have to do anything. And I think you and I geeked out about the book. Geeked out about the book Anything youg Want by Derek Sivers because it's all about like, you create your own utopia when you're an entrepreneur. And I think for Me, the biggest takeaway I've gotten from today's conversation is, is, you know, don't sacrifice what you want. Like, don't sacrifice who you are or what makes you happy or how you want to work. You know, that should, that's the whole point of becoming an entrepreneur. I mean I, I left my education career as a teacher because I didn't have autonomy because I was given a schedule and I was told to be in this classroom at this time and teach this curriculum. And I just felt like I had no, no power over my own, you know, day to day actions. Yeah.

And growth. Right. Like in learning. And you know, one of the other things too to, to add on that is, you know, I was always. Business is weird because it's like, what is the point of having a business? The point of the, of having a business is to make money. And yet, you know, in my first, all these years, it's like, well, I'm getting this money and it's like, we'll reinvest it.

Wait.

Invested in so the business can make the businesses money. But what about me? When, when do I get my share? And a lot of people, they just get in that mindset and they sacrifice and I'm like, no, no, no, no, I get more money. Like it's all mine, baby. Right. So I could retire early. And so like that's sort of like the, the, that was another like little nugget of like I, I read the book Profit first and I was like, that changed me. I was like, holy crap. Yeah, that was an awesome book.

It's one of those books that, yeah, one of those books you try to explain to somebody. Like, I don't get it seems over. Simplic, Simplistic. Yeah.

But yeah, they're like personal finance. You know, it's just personal finance applied to a business. But you know, in this, in the, in the idea that like it's supposed to pay, you started it to make like, you know, if you're, if you're a, you know, if you're just a guy that like, you know, makes jewelry on Etsy, like, you know, you know, you're not going to constantly reinvest. You're gonna, it's like you want to make money from it because you want to quit.

I think it really hits different every time I talk to people about this book. It hits different for people that have been in the, that spot where they're like, I didn't pay myself so I could pay my bills for the business or I, I, I had to Sacrifice and.

Oh, I definitely did that earlier days. Oh, my God. Yeah. I. Self sacrifice. I'm like, no, no, no, I'll take a pay cut. You know, you. The person who's working for me, like, I'm gonna. They were making. Everybody was making more than I was when I. When I was starting, because I thought that's how you grow a business, right? You have to delegate. You have to, you know, pay people well. And. And that is a way. There's a. There's a way to that. But I, I, you know. Yeah. Just didn't. Didn't took it. They only took about a year or two where I was like, this doesn't. Doesn't sit well with me as a.

Person because at the end of the day, you, You. That's not sustainable. I. I found it's unsustainable where you get the short end of the sink, short end of the sick all the time, where you don't get any reward. And when I say reward, I just mean. Yeah, yeah. My reward is just financial stability, like, just being confident that I can pay my rent and pay my bills and pay my, you know, or the reward.

Is ego because I have a big company.

Company.

You know, it's like. It's not even like, what's a big company if you still, you know, don't have big things in your life. You. You can't do anything because you're. You're, you know, you're. You're like. Yeah. Enslaved to the business, you know, for lack of a better phrase.

And that's why I was talking to you about roasting, selling that. That business. Because many of the people I speak to, my friends that are in entrepreneurship, when they get to the point where they're ready to sell their company, a lot of them have hesitations because they're like, this is who I am. And who am I if I don't have this business? Yeah. What's my identity that I speak on circuits because of this business? I do this, this, this because of this business. And it's just like, I think somewhere along the line, we all kind of lose why we started this thing in the first place, you know?

Yeah.

Your sense of purpose is wrapped up in your business. And I. I've started enough little businesses here and there that I'm like, you know, I've walked away from enough also to know that, like, I can keep. I'm gonna do this again, you know, like, if I sell some university or if I sell Money Lab or if I sell brew, Kevin, or any of These things that I run, like, I'm just gonna start another one. I have no. I have no. That's in me to do. Like, I'm a creator.

Yeah.

You know, and not in the sense of like a YouTuber, but in the sense of like, I create businesses from nothing because it's fun to me. Like, it is. It's what brings me some joy in life. And not all the joy, but definitely some of it. Like, I. I like working. It is therapeutic. It is a stress reducer for me, you know, because I. Because of the kind of work that I do. Like, I like Internet work, you know, creating, you know, brands, things like that. That's why I don't. I'm not a consultant, you know, because if I was consultant, it's like, oh, I helped this other person build this thing. All right, well now, you know, do it again. It's like, it's just like it never ends. It's a never ending cycle where, you know.

Yeah.

It's not project based. It's.

It's.

I mean, it is, but it's just like. Yeah. It just never. It never stops because I still have to have the paycheck. So. Yeah, this is like one of those things where I could build it, it can make money over here, and then I can do this other thing over here. And then, you know, it's. They're all like little assets just kind of floating around.

So I love that you trained yourself, you know, to. To not be wrapped up and just is like, this is not who you are. This is what you create. So I love that that is took.

I mean, Swim University is one of those things that like, dude, as a 13 year old boy, like, it's. It is me. Right? But is it like, people. I freaking was on Pat Flynn's podcast like a month ago. He had no idea that I ran Swim University.

Wow.

And I've known him for a long. He thought I was a money matters guy, you know, personal finance. Because he met me Atom. But like, he had no idea I had this business, like the whole time. Time.

Yeah. Yeah. We all meet each other, you know, in different ways. Yeah.

Yeah. So clearly it has nothing. Like, it's not me, you know, it's like, it's just something that I do.

I've been there. I mean, I. I've been to podcasting conferences where I'll speak. And they're like, I mentioned that, you know, I help run Webinar Ninja and they're like, oh, you're the founder of Webinar Ninja. I Didn't know that, like, you know, it's like, yeah, majority of my time is spent there and no one knows, but I mean, I don't. That's not what I do it for. But at the same time it's like, you know, people know you from different places and different channels. It's just so funny how we all have this echo chamber on online. It's been great chatting with you, Matt. I've taken on so much of your time today, but I always love catching up with you, seeing you, seeing what's going on. I'm excited to hear how the shoot goes and seeing all the footage that comes from it.

Yeah, we're just cranking away.

Yeah. And for sure I will be posting all your links in the show notes. You know, Swim University, MoneyLab Co, one of my favorite sites. You guys should definitely check out. There's one in particular that I'll link up about. It's just a funny page about asking for somebody's email. Like an opt in page. It was just hilarious. And then of course, brew cabin as well. So thanks, Matt. I really appreciate it. And we'll be in touch for sure.

Yeah, thanks for having me again.

I loved my chat with Matt Giovanisi, catching up with him. It's been a while. Matt's been a huge supporter of my work and the show. He actually, like I mentioned, wrote the music to our theme song here on the Hundred Dollar NBA show. What I love about Matt is that he reminds me that as an entrepreneur, I make the rules. I choose how I work. I choose what I create, I choose what I sell. If you ever feel trapped, remember you can just make some decisions and change things. Some of these decisions are going to be hard, but once you make them, you'll feel better about it because you're living according to your rules, not the expectations of others or worrying of disappointing others. Life is way too short. I highly recommend you check out Matt's work. Go to MoneyLab Co, where you can learn more about what he's doing. Check out his YouTube channel. It's very, very entertaining and well produced and go ahead and find him and follow him on Twitter agiovanesi. If you loved this format, this extended interview, and want us to do it more often, or maybe once a month or once every two months, let me know. Drop us a rating and review on your favorite podcast app and I'll read it and I'll know exactly how you feel about it. Thanks so much in advance for doing that. Before I go, I want to leave you with this. One of the things I really respect about Matt is he trusts his gut. He trusts how he feels about a situation. If it doesn't feel right, he just gets out of it. He doesn't feel the need to stick around. He doesn't put himself through agony. He sees that they're going to cut affiliate commissions. Let me get out of the affiliate marketing game. This partnership is not working out. Let me step away. Not enjoying building a software business. Let me go back to doing what I enjoy. It's actually that simple. We just need to allow ourselves to make these decisions, give permission to ourselves that it's okay. I can live by my own terms.

Terms.

Because at the end of the day, you have to deal with the life you created. Okay? You have to live that life. Nobody else. Thanks so much for listening and I'll check you in tomorrow's episode. I'll see you then.

Take care.

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