MBA2716 Extended Interview: Tina Tower - How A Breadwinning Wife And Mother Of Two Built A Multi-Million Dollar Online Business Empire

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Welcome back to the Hundred Dollar MBA Show. I'm your host Omar Zenholm, where I.

Deliver practical business lessons three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday to help you start, grow and scale your business.

I got a quick favor to ask.

If this show has helped you in any way. Leave me a quick review. You could do so wherever you listen to podcasts. This helps me and my team reach even more people who need the same no fluff practical business advice that you're getting from the show. It only takes a few seconds, but it makes a huge difference. Thanks for being a part of our journey to help others on their journey. Tina started her first business when she was just 20 years old. She started a tiny tutoring center in a small suburban storefront. Most people would have just been happy with that, kept things small.

But.

But Tina is a big thinker. She grew her business Begin Bright into a national franchise with 35 centers across Australia. She later sold that business to a global education group. And instead of just slowing down and just taking it easy, she used all that experience of two decades of building businesses from scratch. The wins, the mistakes, the heartache, the scars, the breakthroughs. And she rolls it into her next business, her empire builder.

By the way, we're going to hear.

A lot about those tough days. So if you're in the real right now, don't worry, you're in good company. All of us go through that, including Tina. She'll be sharing that today with her empire builder. She helps literally thousands of women around the world turn their knowledge into a profitable online course and build a freedom filled business that they love. She's the author of two bestselling books, the host of her Empire Builder podcast, and the founder of the Kukua Foundation, a foundation that funds education for at risk girls in Kenya. But most of all, Tina is living proof, in my opinion, that you don't have to pick between being a great wife and great parent and a great entrepreneur. You can build a life that supports all of it if you have the courage and the strategy. And this conversation is all about that. In this conversation, we go deep into.

How she built it all.

The mindset, the business, the decisions, the challenges, the reinventions she had to go through, and the truth about what it actually takes to grow a multi million dollar online business while raising a family. This is one of the most inspiring, practical interviews we've ever had on the show. So let's get into it. Here's my extended interview, an amazing conversation with Tina Tower.

So good to be here in your wonderful home. Tina, how are you?

I am so good and excited to have you in my home. Do you know my home is like sacred ground? I've never even shared a picture of the inside of my home on social media. Okay, and here we are.

Well, it's funny you mentioned social media because normally when we have these conversations on the podcast, a lot of times I don't know the person very well, but we're buddies, we've been friends for a while and I feel like I can get into the juice right away.

You can.

So social media, I really admire how much you share on social media. You're very open about your life and what you do and how your experiences. But that's not without its challenges. And in a lot of ways you've transformed your life. You've changed your health habits, you've gotten, you know, fit, you've lost weight. I'm sure you're getting a lot as a woman too. I'm sure you're getting a lot of different kind of feedback from people as you're posting. What's experience like sharing your world and then what kind of reaction are you getting by sharing so much?

I mean, there's the good and the bad.

Okay.

So there's always the good sides, there's always the bad sides. It's funny that you say that I share so much on social media because I still feel like I'm very private. So that is good that you think that and think that it's like you know, that you can make that relationship because to me I always want, I want to keep that privacy. So we had a really scary like a Cyber Stalker in 2015. So that was like my first experience of the dark side of the Internet.

Right.

And ended up having to get the police involved and they had to track him down. And that came about because he'd stop started like he saw me in the newspaper and then became obsessed. He ended up, he was an older man, we didn't know this at the time, but he was an older man in his late 60s in like a mental hospital. But I didn't know that at the time. And so he was messaging me every day, commenting on every post. And then what really freaked me out was when he sent me a photo of my children at our front gate. And that's when we got the police involved. And so at that stage I had operated in a way where I never thought anything bad would happen like that because I wasn't famous, I was pretty small fry. And so I didn't keep private things private. I, you know, on my kids first day of school, you could see their school emblem, where they went to school. And you knew where we lived. We lived in the suburb of Pottsville and you could kind of deduct where we were. And so from that I've been really careful.

Right.

Since that point. Yeah. But now so talking about image things, I mean, the judgment is brutal.

Tell me about it. Like give me an example.

Okay, so an example was just the other day I wore sanitize to Pilates. So I had like my Santa, Santa tights is the best way I could describe them. And someone, someone sent me a message that's a look with, like, a face. So there's like little micro things, but then there's other things. Like people will say to me, you know, you don't look like used to. That's not a good color on you. I wouldn't stick with that angle. Wow, I liked your hair better before. So not like, flat out mean, but just all these little micro things of people sharing their opinions that are not helpful.

Do you think a part of that is that some of your audience came along and joined your movement? Was a part of your content when you were someone else? When you maybe look different when you know, and they kind of, like, related to you in a way, and now they don't.

Yes. So two years ago, I lost 27 kilos, so it's a lot of weight. And I looked very different from that. Now I don't get it so much because I think people have forgotten from before. So people's memories are really, really short. And I like that. And so I don't really get many comments now, but when I was on my way, Yes, a lot of comments from people going, you know, I would post a photo, not anything to do with weight, health, fitness, nothing like that. Like a business photo. And people would DM me and go, I see you're losing weight. Hopefully you don't go too much further. You've gone far enough.

I'm like, who are you to say.

Yeah, so like, little things like that along the way was. Was a lot. And people would say, I'm unrelatable. Or people would say, I got a big note from someone who was a client of mine who I loved so much, saying how disappointed she was in me because I've always represented being who you are and embracing who you are and body positivity. And now I just think smaller is better like everybody else now. Omar, I hadn't said anything.

They just put those words in your mouth.

Yeah, I hadn't said a thing. I didn't say smaller was better, I just got smaller. And so people had a lot of opinions about that. About that.

Yeah. So the reason why I wanted to ask you about this is, you know, I don't know what it's like to be a female entrepreneur. You know, I want to understand what it's like. Yeah, you have separate challenges. Because I do believe that women get judged more online than men.

Yeah.

And that whole public threat thing is also maybe a little bit more of a challenge for women. But also I know that a lot of people that are watching and listening want to make a change in their life. They want to make a change in their image. Maybe they, maybe it's just like a fashion thing. I want to start a new look. Maybe it's a. I want to start talking about something different. I want to expand my horizons. And they're afraid they're going to alienate the people that already follow them.

Yeah.

Like, what advice would you give somebody who's thinking about like making a change to be more their truer self?

Yeah, well, I mean, so I would describe in Covid times myself as dopamine dressing. I wore a lot of like wearable art. You could say I had big dangly rainbow earrings. Like, I wore a lot of color. I still wear a lot of color, but I wear like block color now in my mind I've classed it up a little bit.

Okay, okay.

And that was intentional. I was like, you know, I'm a grown ass woman now. Like I kind of want to go into this next stage and I wanted to class it up a little bit. And again, people had a lot of, a lot of opinions on that. Someone even said to me, you've lost your spark. You used to look so happy and so bright and now it's like you're trying to be fancy. I don't know why. And I mean, you've gone through the same thing recently, right?

Like, I got asked one time on stage in a talk that I was giving in Thailand. One of the questions was like, I think it was around like, did you intentionally have a glow up? And I didn't even at the time, I didn't even know the term glow up. And I was like, a glow up? What's that? And he in the crowd of hundreds of people explaining to me what a glow up is. And I was just like, yeah, I guess I'm taking care of myself better. I mean, you know, it's important to people.

Why?

Yes, because so I figure it's a weird thing. And I don't know how anyone like my following small. I figure I have built.

They're engaged.

They're very engaged. Yes, I have a very engaged audience. But I have tried to be as successful as possible while remaining as anonymous as possible on purpose. So I haven't, you know, I've never paid for Facebook advertising. Like I want to, I want to keep. Which is why it's so engaged is because it's all organic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when, when they're looking at that, like anytime someone changes. A lot of the time when you follow people online, like if I think about my favorite people that I follow Online, I like the consistency. I like knowing what I'm gonna get when I go to their page. And it's always the same and it's that reliability. So if that starts changing, I can understand how as a product, when we're a personal brand and we are the product, if that changes, it's no longer the same.

It's interesting you just said that. You said we are the product. I started getting coaching by coach, business coach. And one of the things that I discovered about myself through the coaching is I'm not so thrilled about being the product.

I know, right? It's the worst part.

And that's why when we built Webinar Ninja and we had a product and the product was serving other people and I still felt significant because I was help in the creation of the product. I like. One of the things I really admire in the world is great art or artists that create a great album or, you know, create a masterpiece that you see hanging in the gallery and you really kind of look at the details and really appreciate the work that was involved. I'm not so in love with Prince himself, but I love his music, you know, so. And Prince is fantastic, lovely guy. But the point is, is that I see that when you're in your world, when you are in your audience building mode, you need to be the product a bit more than maybe comfortable.

Yes.

How have you made peace with that? Or how do you approach that? Like, how do you not say, okay, I'm more than just the product that I'm selling.

Yeah. So I love, I love business. Love the game of business. I have been playing it since I was 20. Couldn't imagine anything else. I love nearly everything about it except building team don't love and being so forward facing. Like being the product.

Okay.

Is the two things.

You're really good at it though.

Thank you.

I'm surprised you said that. Yeah.

So when I was building my franchise, so my previous company was a franchise business and we got about one year into the franchise and I didn't have enough money to promote it. So I couldn't get. I was trying to get investment, couldn't get the right investment. And so, so I figured the best way to build it would be on personal brand. I could, for lack of a better term, pimp myself out to bring attention. And so that was really my first kind of building of personal brand. So I started entering into all the award systems. I got a heap of media. I was 27 when I started that. So I was the youngest female in Australian history to start a franchise company. So I knew that I had something I could use as the hook to build off.

Okay, you had something there.

Yeah. And so that's what I did. I went on to all the stages, I went into all the media. I started putting myself front facing. The good part is it is the cheapest marketing you can ever do to build your business. What we got from that, like, I wouldn't have built the franchise without it. That is how I got all the media. That is how we got all our franchise inquiries. We sold all our franchises without spending any money. So it worked. The downside is I got myself a cyber stalker out of it.

I think it's the low price of the.

But you then open yourself up to all these judgments and people that have opinions of you. And my thing was once you build yourself up, you've then got so far to fall and so true. A really hard.

Say that one more time, please.

Yeah, Once you build yourself up, you've got so far to fall. And the expectations on you once you build a profile are very unrealistic. You're held to a much higher level of expectations than I think when you know you're playing in the dark where you can do different things and you can experiment with different things and no one's judging you, no one's watching you. It's beautiful. So it does have its challenges. The way that I have kind of made peace with it is I love the work that I get to do on the end. So I love serving people. Like, you know, yesterday we had a new cohort in her empire builder come through last month. And so at 30 day mark we have like our get organized workroom where we get organized for the next 12 months after they've kind of gone through that first 30 days of nervousness. And there's all these people there that have such big dreams and different things that they want to do and I get to work with them. And I did think when I got off that call, this is why I go when we're in launch. And like, you know, I'm like a dancing monkey. I'm doing all the things I'm throwing my confessor doing all that I do sometimes cringe at myself at, you know, there's sometimes I'm like, I can't believe as a business strategist and a 42 year old woman that I have to do this stuff to be seen by the people that are my perfect audience. But when I get to serve them, I'm like, it's worth it.

Interesting. So you Give them what they want in order for you to be able to give them what they need.

I think so.

Yeah. I like that. That you've come to terms with that.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's not a small thing.

Yeah. I mean, how do you feel about it? Because your face, you. You do a lot of podcast episodes, a lot of video episodes. Your face and your voice are very recognizable.

Yeah. This is something that I've been thinking about working on for a very long time because I don't share a lot of my personal life as much as, like, my whole team is like, dude, please share a photo when you're on holiday. Do something. Like, they, like, hate me for not, like. And I don't know why. There's a resistance there. There's something I'm working through. I think a part of it is that I want the content and the lessons and what I'm trying to show people to be the main focus.

Yeah.

I understand from an intellectual point of view and a marketing point of view, like, people need to like and trust you and all that kind of stuff, but I don't want to be the product. And I think that's something I'm trying to work through and try to figure out, how can I.

Social media, like, one thing I think that's changed is social media is supposed to be social. We're supposed to use it to connect. And when I first came onto Instagram, for example, I think it was like, that I've made good friends through social media, like actual legitimate, real life friends, whereas now it's very contrived. And so I try and keep it as natural as possible. So I love, like, when people do travel content, I love when they do real things because it lets you connect with people. And I think there is a way to do that and still maintain your privacy.

Yeah. I'm learning that I can do the travel content or shoot a video when I'm somewhere that's interesting. If what I'm talking about is interesting.

Yes.

You know, I was talking about this with a friend the other day. I had a dinner with a bunch of male entrepreneurs, and some of them were fantastic, but some of them I just didn't relate to at all. Like, they were sharing stories about traveling and all my girlfriends dragging me to the cathedral. We got to see another church, and I look at it for five minutes and I'll wait for you outside and whatever. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And I was just like, you do realize that the person that the architect that designed this cathedral Designed it knowing that it's not going to be completed during his lifetime. Like, that isn't inspirational to you? Like, as a business person, as a creator, like, are you aware of the fact that maybe you need to build something bigger than yourself? Just like the person that built like all that is in the visit to the cathedral. Right. And he was just like, no, I want to go. Go karting. I'm like. And I'm like, I don't want to judge. I don't want to judge. But I'm like, for me, that's the type of content I want to share when I travel. Or this is like this idea of like, this is what I'm getting out of the travel. I'm getting at the fact that like, you know, we're in Rome recently and I was like, everything here is over like 100 years old at least. Right. Everything is like ancient in compared to what we see online. Online. Everything is like last week is. Could be like 10 years ago.

Yeah.

You know, and I. That's aspiring to me to be able to have that kind of vision, to be like, hey, I have the patience to do something now that won't reap its benefits or see the fruits of that labor until later. And maybe that's being romantic about business and creator economy and all that kind of stuff.

But I mean, I think we have to.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that's the beauty in it.

Yeah. That's why we love it so much.

Yeah.

Yeah. We want to make something that matters, that lasts. Totally.

Yeah.

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One of the reasons why I really connected with you when we first met was like, I was like, this woman's like a hard worker and she's like, got grit and she's not afraid to like do things herself. And she's like a maker and probably too much. Yeah, maybe we're going to put that aside for a second. You know, you're on my show today, so we're going to be nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. But I. I know that doesn't come from nowhere because you grew up in a tough environment and you grew up very fast, you know, had to be independent very young. What can you share from that story?

Well, I mean, I could say I've probably spent the last 10 years trying to unlearn the working so hard thing, which, you know, someone asked me the other day, do you think you would have got where you have gotten to without working as hard as you could? Like, if there was. If you could avoid burnout, if you could have balance? Like, do you think that's possible? And if I, like. I would like to say, of course we can do it in such a healthy way, but I actually, I don't.

You don't believe that?

I don't believe it. No. I do think it. I do think it takes hard work, especially beginning. Yeah. Heaps. And I think the, you know, the online world just romanticizes way too much.

How work smarter, not harder.

Can I. Yeah. And, you know, outsource. If it doesn't bring you joy, outsource it. Or if you charge yourself out at $1,000 an hour, anything less than that, you should hire people for that whole thing.

So.

I do believe in hard work. I think it has served me really well. So, little bit of the backstory. I came from quite a tumultuous household. I am the second child of six, so I have five brothers, but four of them are half brothers.

Okay.

So I grew up.

You lived in the same house, though?

Three of them in the same house? Yeah. And they were quite rough. Yeah. So it was not uncommon. You know, my brother broke my nose. I was bruised a lot. Like, it was just in. In jest, almost like that was just a normal part.

Yeah. Yeah.

That. One of the things that I have learned as I've grown up is you don't know what's normal until you get out into the big world.

And so, yes, that's so true.

I didn't really, you know, like, probably have major issues with my family until I had kids myself, when I had my own children. This sounds awful, but when I had my own children was when I really started to hate my mother because I was like, I love my kids so much and want nothing more than to protect them. That for her to allow me to be treated and for her to treat me the way that she did, I just find it so hard to understand. So I left home for the first time when I was 14 and I ran away. Like the whole, you know, quintessential teenage girl run away. I slept the night in the back of a fruit shop. But the funniest part, and this is like such a indicative of my personality type, was I took my school bag, I took everything there. So I went to school the next day. Like, I was like, you're independent, I'm not missing school. Like my education is important. So I went there and then a friend told her mom who came and got me the next night and I stayed with them for a few weeks and then I was taken to my dad's house. So lived there for a year, which we didn't really have much to do with each other, but they had two more boys, so their boys at that time were like two and three, you know, I was a 14 year old, very headstrong. I don't think it would have been easy for them. And so I was in the way of like their new family that they were having. And so after nine months, he dropped me back at the top of the driveway at my mum's house and told me to get out. And I had to go back in and go, I'm back, please look after me. And so nothing was really ever the same then. So I was really lucky. I met Matt, my husband, three weeks after my 18th birthday, which is young. It's like pretty much the age of my son now, which spins me out because I'm like, you're a baby. That is so young.

But you are a baby.

I was a baby.

I mean, you had probably more experience than.

Yeah, I remember meeting him. I remember all of that. And I didn't, I didn't think I was, I was. I mean, I was working three jobs through my HSC. I started the business when I was 20. I was still going to uni full time, paying my way because I didn't want to have hecs debt. Like, I was. I was like as ambitious as all get up. I was going to Anthony Robbins. I was going to Robert Kiyosaki. Where some people find religion. I found personal development. It was like when he said, if you can dream it, you can dream it, you can achieve it. I was like, well, I'm dreaming it, I'm achieving it. Like, let's go. My diary's from that time because I keep a journal.

Nice.

Which is really helpful because we do rewrite history in our heads a lot. So sometimes I'll go back and read it and go it just makes me feel really sorry for myself now if I read it. But you know, when, when I like, look at all that, like the dreams that I had were so ridiculous and so not my own. I was like, I'm going to own 10 properties and a super yacht. And I'm like, I just had the goals of all the things that you think like wealthy, successful people will have, which evidently as I've gotten, I don't want any of that.

The responsibilities of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want that at all. I do love boats. If anyone wants to invite me on a super yacht, I will be there. Yeah. But I don't want to own one. But yes, as I grew up, I worked really hard. There was all of my self worth was wrapped up in achievement. I felt like, and I think this is, you know, when you have parents that don't love you, I think it can make you very like just you find that worth in other places.

Yeah. You have to find the love in the things you do. Yeah, yeah. And that's not easy. I don't know about you, but I look back sometimes in my childhood, my parents, they tried their best, you know, they weren't perfect. You know, no one is. Do you ever look back and feel like maybe they didn't have the tools to do what you needed?

I think they just don't know. So I think my mum would probably have bipolar or some sort of, you know, mental thing going on that she's never worked on. But also I just think parenting then was different. I don't imagine my parents ever sitting together and going, could we do better? Whereas Matt and I, at least once a week we discuss like our son at the moment. He's always wanted to go to America and play golf. And a couple months ago we've talked him out of it because the state of America at the moment and different things that are happening that I'm like, I just don't think it's the smartest thing. And so when we've, when he's like removed that dream, he's been spending a bit of extra time at the skate park and I'm like, okay, the skate park's not the greatest place, so what are we going to? And we. The amount of clothes conversation we have had, both Matt and I and with him in making good decisions together and keeping him safe and happy and all of that. And I'm like, that just didn't happen for our generation.

Yeah. I think an uncle of mine mentioned that the difference between your parents generation and our parents and our generation is that our parents, when they had kids, their life didn't change.

Yeah.

Like, it just like, it was just like buying a car. It was like, you know, okay, just something we got to maintain and be.

Hard to pull the lot.

Yeah, exactly. Figure it out. And I don't know, I don't want to speak for you, but for me, I'm actually happy that's how it was because it taught me to be responsible. Taught me to like, the world's not gonna come save me, I gotta figure it out. Like, I love the fact that I have memories where I was in a jam. Like I had to figure something out. And the option of calling my parents was not there because they'd get angry. Like, oh, like, why did you get yourself in this situation? So I had to solve it myself. And it's like, how many 12 year olds can do that?

Yeah. You know, I do think you can teach responsibility without being negligent.

Yeah, I think they're just busy. My parents are just busy. Both my parents were working so long and you know, like I formerly met my dad when I was like 13. He was living with us and everything. He's my dad, but like he's working so much. He was married.

Yeah.

Yeah, he was working nine to nine every day except Sunday.

Yeah.

You know, and actually the reason why I say it when I was 13 is because that's when I started going to work with my dad. I used to. My dad was a car salesman. He was the manager of the dealership. And then my first job at 13 was washing cars at the wash bay. He would take me on Saturdays and we would go together in his car and we'd stop at Wawa, which was like a convenience store. And he would get told me, give me money and say, go get a coffee and get a hot chocolate for yourself. And then, then we come back and I always remember to let me keep the change. And that was like a huge thing. Wow. I got like extra few bucks in my pocket.

Yeah.

But then I would go to work and clean cars till three, but he didn't finish till nine. So I just sit in the showroom and watch my dad work. And it was an interesting moment where you get to observe your parents not being parents. Like how they deal with their colleagues, how they order lunch, you know, things like that. And it's just like, oh, I like this kind of scene.

It's like when my kids look at me on stage.

Oh yeah.

Their face is so funny when I look out and see Their faces.

And I'm sure that they're looking at the crowd and saying, wow, there's so many people that admire this woman. Yeah, that's my mom.

Yeah. Yeah. Cohen, after his first big conference that he came to, and he went in the break and he was like, they think you're, like, a big deal. Like, yeah, I am a big deal boy.

I like. I am.

I love it. I love it.

Yeah.

So you had a franchise for a while, you sold your business and you moved into the content world.

Yes.

Okay, tell me about that transition. Tell me about what was, like, building a new type of business.

Yeah. Do you know, like, funny that this is happening now. So yesterday I was looking, like, at notes from then, and I was looking at. After I sold all the new business ideas that I had, and I had, like, the business there and the fors and against and what I was gonna go into, and I had all the business plans nutted out for, like, these eight different businesses that I wanted to.

Do as you would.

Well, it's, for me, the ideas, it's not lacking ideas. It's lacking, like, capital and time for execution. Always my thing. I don't know how people are like, I know I want to be an entrepreneur, but I don't know what to do. I give you a book. All the difference. Like, there's so many different ways to do it. So many possible.

So many ways.

And so when I sold Begin Bright, I was in the situation where I was like, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. So I started my tutoring center when I was 20, and I sold Begin Bright at 33. So I was very much in childhood education that whole time and knew I wanted to do something different, but didn't know what it was. So the first thing we did was take a year off, which I am. So it was the best year of my life, I don't think. We traveled around the world. We went to 28 different countries. Our kids at the time were 8 and 9, and I just don't see how anything in my life could ever top that.

So you were totally off, like, a complete sabbatical from everything?

Yeah. I had no email, no social media, which. Talking of social media, I'm like, it would have been the greatest content of my life, and I didn't share any of it.

But you have it in your head.

I have it in my head, but I'm like, gosh, I could have built such a profile through that. But I'm glad we kept it really sacred. And we just, it was so nice to disappear. Yeah. I loved the feeling of disappearing and at the time, and this is a good, good kind of message for everyone that I think is good to know is sometimes, you know, I was really worried that by doing that I was going to lose everything and have to start from scratch.

Everything?

What do you mean by everything?

So we didn't get, we didn't sell for enough money to retire, so we sold for enough that it was, it was good, we had a good sale, but it wasn't like f off money. It was.

You're worried like you're going to lose all your money in the travel.

No, no, no, no, no. We had enough money to travel and, and we bought our house and that was kind of it. And then I had to find my next adventure. But I was worried that by disappearing I would lose all the momentum that I'd worked so hard for. And then by the time I came back, no one would remember who I was. I would have to start building all over again. And the interesting thing was I came back and no one really realized I had left. People were like, you went away for a year. I was like, yeah. They're like, I swear it was just last month.

Wow.

No one, everyone's thinking about themselves. No one's really thinking about us that much.

And time flies.

Yeah, it really does. And so I'm so glad I took that time out. And you never start from scratch. Like you're always building on what you've already got. And so what I was doing then was what I do now is the only thing I've ever done by accident. Because it wasn't. I was supposed to find my next real business and I was coaching until I found the next real business. And so I was loving coaching. I was doing it mostly for service based business owners that wanted to systemise, scale and sell. Because what I was really good at was systems from franchising. And at the time, so we were doing over 5 million a year. We had 120 staff, we had 40 locations and we had 6 head office staff. So we were running quite a big operation on what we had because it was just so well oiled. My systems were a work of art and so I was helping other people do that so that they could leverage and do that. But what I was going through with everyone was I was repeating the same thing again and again and again and again. And so I was like, I'll put that part into an online program so that when we do our private coaching sessions, it's Just like, the stuff that they need to work on.

Okay. So they can consume the content and then fill in the gaps.

Yes. So that's what it was supposed to be. And then I started doing that, and everyone was going, oh, how have you done this online thing? I want to do that with some of my ip. And so I launched my first course idea to launch in 2018, and made $11,000 in the week, which to some people is not very much to me. I could not believe it. I was like, I don't have to do anything for this. Everyone was happy. Up until that point, I had sold products in our toy store, which you buy something for $2, you sell it for $4 in tutoring centers, we pay the teachers $40. The parents paying $80 ahead of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so really, you know, predictable kind of scenario. Whereas I was like, so I just sent this out, like, at the time on personal Facebook because that's all that I had. Where so many people. That launch go. I'm not putting it in my personal. Like, how embarrassing.

Yeah.

I didn't care what Uncle Toby was gonna say about me. Like, I'm putting it out there. And so I sold it on my personal Facebook because I had no email list or anything, so I sold it on that and 11 grand. I was like, oh, this is insane. I'd seen a little bit of, like, Amy Porterfield and James Wedmore popping up. And honestly, when I saw this.

What year is this?

This is 2018.

Okay.

Yeah. So when I saw their stuff, I was like, that's not how business works.

Yeah.

Like, they're just talking out of their asses. No, no, they weren't.

They weren't. Yeah. Because the Internet scales quite well, so. Well, yeah. So just so we're clear, idea to launch is a course that people would take to learn how to create an online course.

Yeah. Just simply how to get your ip, put it into a course platform, build the website, set up your marketing ready to go.

And it was like a once thing. Like, you buy. You have lifetime membership to this course.

12 months.

12 months. Okay. So they can renew every year.

Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

And then your first launch, you got 11 grand, and then you're like, man, if I do this again.

Yeah. So I wanted to say, when I did that, the thing that kind of went off in my head was, I wonder how long it'd take me to hit a million dollars with this. That was like, my first thing. And so I launched it four times a year for two years.

Okay.

And it took 19 months to make the first million. So it was insane. And it was at the time. So I think, you know, 2018 was much easier than it is now to like, go from zero up.

We'll get into that.

Yeah, yeah. But then in 2020, because I had all these graduates, was when I started her empire builder. And then that is the most fun I've ever had in business.

Okay, so her empire builder is more of a coaching membership. Membership. Okay, so they're, they're a membership. They, they get a community and they also.

A lot of information. Yeah.

Live on video.

Yes.

Okay, so what was the catalyst for you to be like, hey, I want to offer a more premium product. I want a high value product. What was like, kind of the reason why you wanted to go there?

So with courses and I mean, it probably wasn't the smartest business move from a profitability standpoint, but for me, I want both. I want to make a lot of money, but I also want to enjoy myself a lot. And so with courses, it was very transactional. People buy the course. I would meet people at events and conferences and they were like, I take. I've taken your course. I have no idea who they are, which, you know, I didn't love. I like knowing people. I love relationships and connections and knowing people. And so when I started looking at memberships and more mastermind kind of models, that was where I was going. I think this will be more suited to my personality type where I can really know someone and see them every month and go, all right, yeah. What are you working on? Let's, let's change that and know people's partners and children and what they're struggling with and what they're worried about and be able to work more closely with them. And that did make me a lot happier. It's tax season, and at Lifelock, we.

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In that process, do you come across people that you just can't help?

Yes.

How do you deal with that?

I hate it.

How do you know you can't help them? And then what do you say to them?

So, you know, this is a tricky, tricky thing because I'm censoring myself because I'm like, people are going to judge what I'm going to say, so I won't censor myself and judge away. So I do think that sometimes, and the same with franchising, there would be people that would come in and interview for a franchise, and I would either go, yes or I'd go, no, you don't have it. And this is where I think it's such a problem that entrepreneurship has been romanticized so much, is people think they're going to be working 5, 10. Like, I'll have people come sometimes come to me and go, I want to start my online business. I don't want to work more than five or ten hours a week. I don't want to put myself on video, and I'd like to make a million dollars a year. I'm like, yeah, that sounds rad.

Do you have a genie and a lamp? Yeah.

I'm like, that sounds. Not even like. That just doesn't. It doesn't happen.

That's like saying all that. I want to be a surgeon.

Yeah.

Like, how it doesn't.

It doesn't happen. And so I do think, you know, if people have unrealistic expectations and they're not willing to get their hustle on, it's not going to work. But the thing that I have grappled with, and this is where I bring in, like, the thing that I think sometimes people would judge me for is I'll have discovery calls with people. And there are some times that I will talk to people and go, I don't think it's gonna work. And sometimes I will say that, and sometimes I won't. And the reason sometimes I won't is because there are times where I think sometimes people are so determined that they could surprise me. And what makes me the holier than thou person that gets to either anoint them and say they can try or not try and so lose your program.

But. Yeah. Yes.

But there are times, you know, like, we've had people in the program for a year that still still haven't launched.

Yeah. So how do you. How do you suss that out early? Like, how do you know this person has what it takes. You've seen so many people. Is there, like, something that you notice?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

What's that?

Well, I mean, it's a bit of an X factor. Like, you would see this too, right? So where you've got. You put in a room of successful entrepreneurs, and they're different. There's not a one size fits all. Like, if I look at, you know, the masterminds that we have, where they're over seven figures, all very different personalities. Some are extroverted, some are introverted, Some are like, attention, some hate it. Like, there's all different types. But the thing that everybody has is, like, some sort of likability, some sort of X factor that allows them to communicate with the people they're trying to communicate with. And that, I think, is a big thing in being willing to talk to the people that you're trying to serve.

Yeah.

And too often, I think people aren't willing to put themselves out there, which means they're not going to connect with anybody.

Yeah, I see something in those groups. The commonality is something that I heard from Stephen Bartlett, which is like, they care more about winning than being right.

Yeah.

Like, a lot of people that would have a call with me or asking advice, and after that call, I'm like, this person should go back to their job. Because one, they have all these excuses why they haven't done anything. And when you give them feedback, like, yeah, but. Yeah, but, like, the person that wants to change is gonna be like, I need to listen to this person. Because what I think is right and what I'm doing is getting me current results.

Yeah.

Like, so you have to be open to the fact that, like, I'm probably wrong. I'm probably. I need to change. I need to, you know, And I feel like all the people that we know are friends. The people that, you know, when we go on these trips and we have fun, the Dales of the world and, you know, the Michael Maidens, these people are willing to change. They're willing to.

And to fail as well. I think that is a big part of it, like, to come at your, like, willing to not be right is. I think people are under the misconception that we win all the time. Whereas, like, we. Like, you just did your thing where you made your app and you went, like, the first two days in before you went, you know what? This is not gonna work. And you had to start all over again. And for a lot of people, like, bringing it back to the. Once you build up, there's further to Fall. It was so much easier to fail at the beginning. After you've had success, it's so much harder because you have to do it so publicly. Like, I'm sure there would have been a part of you when you were recording that going, oh, people are watching me in real time failing.

But that's when it kicked in. Like, I remember this vividly. Like, y' all gonna hear this soon. But the seven day experiment where I try to build an AI app. Build an app where? With AI in seven days.

So cool.

Yeah. And two days in, I realized the software I'm using to help me build this is just not working for me. Too many bugs, issues. It's not really getting it. And I have to start from scratch again. And I only have five days left. And I'm like, in my head, I'm having breakfast at the hotel and I'm like, I got my iPad. I'm like, what do I do? Do I just, like, keep going and recognize the fact I'm not gonna make it in seven days and the app won't be completely. And that will be the episode and that will be what I document. I was like, no. In that moment, I was like, I want to win. I want to make sure that I have a working app in seven days. It's like, what is that going to take? That's going to take me doing this all over again. I'm going to have to build the app all over again with a new piece of software that's a little bit more technical. So I basically, the third day, learned how to build this app with this new software for like half the day. And the other half of the day, I built everything I did in two days and I was like, okay, now I'm back on track and I can do it.

And in that moment, like on that day three moment where you were like.

What do I do?

Is this going to be a failure or am I going to do it? And you had that moment where you went and you like, grin in.

Yeah.

Is that not the best moment?

It's the best moment, but I think it's very uncommon. I don't think most people have that.

That's why I think most people shouldn't be entrepreneurs, is because I think every entrepreneur I know loves that moment where you're like, you can see the possibilities. You know you can do it. You know it's going to be hard. You're excited about the result and you're like, I know, like, let's go.

Yeah. And I think I don't Want to be on our own chest and say, oh, you know, this is why we're so great. No, I think it's because we've learned through so much trial and error that we don't have that sunk cost fallacy.

Yes.

Like, we've really learned that. The first thing, the first time we experience this is when we quit our jobs or we quit our career and we start a business. Like, that whole idea of, like, oh, man, I've worked so hard to build my credibility in my job. Everybody knows who Omar is and, you know what he's capable of. I'm have to let all that go and start new. No one knows Omar the entrepreneur. Like, you just learn really quickly. Like, all that doesn't matter. Like, you know, you're gonna keep wasting your time on the thing you don't like.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I don't know how we got here, but it was from the.

Commonality between people that are successful, which I do think is the X factor. And I also think the willingness to fail because we do. Like, even just in the last couple of years, the industry has changed so much. You have to be willing to not do the things that you've always done and go, all right, this is it now. Like, you never get to the point where it's, like, set. You've got to constantly evolve and constantly change and constantly be open to, okay, the way I've done, it's no longer working. What's next?

Let's talk about that.

Yeah.

Because I think that whether we like it or not, whether we recognize it or not, how people learn, how people consume content, how people pick up skills is changing with AI.

Yeah.

And you help people build courses whether they're using AI or not. But do you have any thoughts about where we're going when it comes to how people learn?

Yeah, I mean, I have thoughts, but they could be wrong. Right. Like, I won't sit here and pretend I'm going to know what's going to happen in the. In the world in the next couple. Couple of years. But in terms of, like, AI coming in. So I remember south by Southwest is my favorite conference every year. So I've gone to it most years since 2016. And back in, like, the one just before COVID So it was that 2019, and they were talking about AI and Sam Altman was there, and they were. They were, like, rolling out different things, and Google were talking about it, and there was a lot of companies that were talking about it. And in my notes, like, I was like, AI is going to change everything like this, it's coming in like let's start using it. Nothing really happened until about 2022. 2023. Yeah. And then once that came out and then even 2023. So my first YouTube video about how to use CHAT GPT was at the start of 2023, but I don't think a lot of my clients started using it until like start of this year. Yeah, yeah. And so it's been a lot slower. Everyone thinks it's come on so fast, but it's been actually a lot slower an uptake than what I expected.

I think the uptake has been slower, but I think the evolution and the change and the improvement of AI has.

Been so fast exponentially in the last couple of years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I do think it's changed the way. I mean I know even with the courses that I would consume Now I'll ask ChatGPT for a lot of things. So I do think that like the sim, like the 2k course is dead, which built a lot of people's businesses on like you're information heavy, self paced. Pay me two grand for the thing and I'll give you the information is no longer. So the ones that I'm seeing be successful now are either the really, really low end, like here's how you use the software without having on it, like just start to go, go for it. Like I bought one a couple months ago was the last short course I bought which was how to use freepik, like to make AI photographs. And I didn't want to mess about with it, I didn't want to follow YouTube tutorials. I was like, just show me. And this is the thing, there's always been a lot of information like you could use YouTube before to teach you anything. AI is just another version of that, but it will change the way we're doing things. So I do think for a lot of course creators you need to bring in community, you need to be building community and connection because it's what people are going to be lacking so much is we're so isolated and especially for the extroverts of the world, like they need to have that connection with people. So I think that's going to become even more important as we go forward.

Okay, so people are going to want more connection.

Yeah.

Do you feel like people want more in person connection?

Yes.

Like in real life?

Yeah, yeah.

And you do a lot of retreats in your, in your. How many retreats do you do every year?

We only do two.

Two retreats okay, yes. But you also have a mastermind that does a retreat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A couple masterminds, yeah. You're cheating on us.

I love it. Yeah.

I love it so much. To me, the. So I'm an introvert, but I love intimate retreats. They're perfect for me. So to me, like, I either love speaking on massive, massive stages. So the biggest stage I've spoken on is 1500 people. And I found that quite easy because you can't see anybody. The lights are drowning you out, so you can't see anybody's face. You just get on and you're just performing. But ones I find really hard is, like 200 people where you can see everyone's faces and they're all, like, staring at you and making faces and they're just staring blankly.

Oh, yeah. No reactions.

So hard, so hard. So I like being able just to connect with people properly. And so I've always done live events because they make me happy. But also, I think from a business point of view, it's why we've got such great retention.

Okay.

Is we keep people there because people know each other, they see each other year after year, and they like to stay part of that. So it's worked twofold to be able to do that, to build community. So it's very lucky for me that people are now wanting more connection because I'm like, I'm here. I'm ready. This is great.

So you started this journey in 2018. It's now 2000, almost 2026, 2025. As we're recording this, where is this going for you? Like, what do you want to get out of this? Do you have an end in mind? Are you just enjoying the journey or.

I don't know. So at the moment, it's the longest I've ever done something without evolving it. So even though I was in, like, tutoring for 13 years, I had my own tutoring centers. Then we started licensing, then we started franchising. And so we snowballed a little bit. Whereas, like, with the last launch, for example, we ran our last launch. I, like, through the confetti, doors open. I'm like, how many times can I do this? It's. It's feeling sameness. So I want to do something. I don't know how to shake it up. That will keep me entertained, which I think is important. So I'll probably, like, try different launch mechanisms or maybe go into Evergreen. But I don't want to use Meta ads. So, you know, I don't know. I don't know, I've got to like try and get around that in my head somehow. But we'll see. We'll see where that's going to go. But the high level groups aren't going anywhere. Yeah, I love those. But I might start playing with some other little businesses on the side to satisfy that itch.

So the reason why I wanted to kind of talk about this window, 2018-2025 is those are the years where your kids were kind of growing up.

Yeah.

And you were, you know, on mom duty. You're on, you know, wife duty, you're on, you know, businesswoman. Like what was that like? Trying to balance all that and meet your own expectations, but also not feel guilty.

Yeah, yeah. I mean the guilt doesn't serve anybody. And so it's something that people really struggle with for the first couple of years. But it's, it's. No, it can be torturous at the start for, for a mom wanting, like having that social conditioning to feel like you need to be in the home all the time. But then also if you're ambitious, feeling that pull and trying to work out what is going to be right for me and doing both. And I would never tell anyone this is the way to do it because it's so individual for different people. I've got some girlfriends that, you know, aren't really very maternal and so they love their work and being there all the time and have nannies and different things and that works for them. I'm as maternal as you can get. I wore my babies for the first year like no one was touching them but me. Loved it. And so to me, business has been the greatest gift ever because I have been able to make a bucket ton of money, do beautiful work that serves so many people and be present for my kids in every stage of their life. And I can't imagine how like I look at people with a job and I think that would be so difficult in having to leave for work at 7:30, 8 o' clock in the morning and you don't get home till 6 o'.

Clock.

And then how do you cook dinner and grocery shop and read to your kids and do it like you just. It's so much harder. And so I feel so grateful for business as a vehicle being able to do that. But I do travel a bit, so there is different times. You know, I miss them a lot when I travel. There was in 2023, so after Covid kind of came out of it and I was like so itching to get out into the world again. And I went away for five weeks, which was the longest I had ever gone away. And Homer, from like three weeks on, I cried nearly every day. And I was just like, I want to go home. I just, I missed them so much. So it wasn't.

Well, now you know your value, you know.

Yeah. So I love a 10 day trip. Yeah, love a 10 day trip. I'm off there. I get on the. I get on the plane by myself. I'm like walking all by myself. Like I'm out there alone in the world. Love it.

Yes.

For 10 days.

Because you know, you know the end is coming.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's kind of been the balance for me. But also we've done business and life together. So I had the kids for the first five years and then when they started school, Matt stopped work. So Matt stopped in 2013 when our franchise started taking off so that he could. Because I just couldn't do everything. And so I was like, he worked for money, whereas I work for money, but also because I love it. And so we're like, why are we sticking to this when our family unit would be so much happier? Matt doesn't mind cooking. He doesn't mind, like the mundane stuff of every day, which I hate that part. Love looking after the kids, hate cleaning, hate cooking. Like, I'm like, this is such a waste of my time. I could be doing so many different things. Whereas he doesn't mind pottering around the house and getting all of that done. So we were much happier when that happened. But if you ask the kids, they have two stay at home parents. They think we're just here waiting for them every day. Yeah. So we've spent a lot of time together. We travel a lot together. When I travel for work, I take them with me. They have seen me on stages and in all the different things when we've had, like big decisions. So up until probably two years ago now, we had Sunday family meeting. Every Sunday where we'd talk about, like, we'd show them our bank accounts. This is how much money we've got. This is how much money we made this week. These are the big decisions we're making. This is our calendar for next week. We'd actually talk about it. And if I had to do something, like I was looking at going to an overseas conference or I was looking at saying yes, I go, this is what I'm looking at. What do you think? And then sometimes they'd be like, no, I've got this on. I really want you there? I'm like, okay, yes, I did forget that you had that. So we'll do that and adjust. And then other times they're like, yeah, we want to do. Can we come too? And so we've always made them feel part of it, which has made it feel more like a team rather than this whole, mum's going to do this while we're left here. Yeah. So I feel like we've done it. We've done it together.

Well, I can share with you that, like, one of my biggest inspirations in life is my mother. And she really prioritized her career and work and being a provider for the family. I feel so lucky that that was my first example of a woman like that. That's what women should do. Women should go after their own dreams and they should try to contribute in the way they feel they can contribute. And it doesn't have to be cooking and cleaning. It could be in, you know, making sure the bills are paid on time and all that kind of stuff. So that was my example. So, like, that's a huge gift you've given your children where they. They see women in a different light. You know, I'm not. Homemaker is a very admirable position. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not. I'm not trying to judge anybody, but I'm saying that in my own experience, that was one of the best gifts I got in my life, is that.

I mean, there has been times where I've regretted it. There's been like, different times where I probably not regret, but, like, I've been resentful of Matt. Probably two or three times we've had. Where it comes to this crux where we're in a really difficult stage of business where I'm really, like, back against the wall and the whole thing is on my shoulders and I've got to support him and the kids financially. I'm like, I don't wanna do this anymore.

Pressure.

Yeah, the pressure of it where I'm like, I could have just decided to be a woman that stayed at home with her kids. Why didn't I decide that? Why did I have to go out and make something of myself? But then when it comes to it, there's no other way I'd have it.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm every woman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You mentioned Matt. Matt Tower. So what does Matt mean to you and how has he been a part of your success?

I mean, I think I got lucky. Like, there's no. We definitely communicate well and work at it. But think of yourself at 18, right? You're such a different person.

What an idiot.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know. Think you would have been an idiot. I definitely wasn't.

I knew him. He was an idiot.

But there was some, you know, like, we're so different. Matt wasn't even sure he wanted kids when we met. Little did he know he didn't have much choice in the matter. The poor guy, he got totally steamrolled by me. But I'm sure he's fine with it now. But there was, you know, we just got lucky. It's just been every evolution of each of us. I think I really like him and that I know friends that have got divorced through no fault other than just. You've just kind of grown apart as time's gone on and want different things out of life that you don't realize when you're a kid what you want. And I think it's just lucky that we're such different people. I am so driven. Obviously, he has no ambition at all. He is the most content, happy, cruisy dude I've ever met. And so we're so different in those ways. But we've got, like, the exact same values. We have the same thing with parenting. We spend our money in the same way. We want to live the same way. We both love travel, we both love space, we both love family time, like, all of that sort of thing. So we've got, like the same value system but with very, very different people. Which I think keeps it really entertaining.

Right. I would imagine you guys do a lot of communication.

Yes.

What does that look like for some people? Like, you're all. Communication is the key to a great marriage and a great relationship. What does that look like in your relationship, communication?

I mean, we don't have like a formal thing. It's not like we sit down and go through a procedure of something, an agenda. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't have the agenda, but we do spend a lot of time together. So every morning we, you know, have our tea together and we have our breakfast together. Every. This is going to make me feel sound so, like, kept woman, but every day at lunchtime, I'm at work and I get a text, lunch in 10 minutes. And my cooked lunch is on the table ready for me to eat together.

I mean, this is how the world was the other way around. Forever.

Yeah, yeah.

Why not? You know?

Yeah. So he makes me, like, steak and salad every day or fish or prawns or something delicious. That keeps me going and Then we have dinner as a family. So we have a lot of time together, and we do a lot of things together. We go on a lot of dates, we travel a lot. We have fun together. And I think that is a big part of it, is having fun, and I am pretty good at recognizing. So, like Matt would say he had to train me to communicate at the start because I thought he was going to leave me every five minutes. As soon as I would do something that he wasn't happy with, I would go, fine, fine. Leave anyway. That's fine. Because I just thought that's what you're used to. I was very unlovable. I was like, as soon as he gets to know me well, of course he's not going to love what he finds. And so I think for the first 10 years, I fully expected him to learn who I was and divorce and the amount of times he would have to come and hold me and say, I can disagree with you and it's okay. Like, where safe to disagree? Like, he's just such a beautiful, gentle man who was everything I needed and taught me that. That you can have different things. I know. This is what I mean by luck, though, right? Was, you know, he taught me that you can. You can disagree, you can want different things. We can have times where it's like, you know, he wants to watch this movie, I want to watch this movie. Like, those little things, and that's fine. It doesn't mean we don't like each other. Other just means we want a little time.

Yeah.

And that's okay. So, like, all the big things and the little things, I think he's dealt with me so well, and I'm sure he would say, like, his life would have been so boring without me.

I mean, it sounds like that you're the action taker. Like, you're the person that's like.

Yeah.

You know, if this was like a buddy comedy movie, you're the Jackie Chan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I make a lot of the decisions, but then there's different things. Like, I'll make a lot of the decisions, and Matt's pretty cool to go along with most of it, but the second he makes the decision, he's, like, immovable.

Right?

Yeah.

I did an episode on the podcast called the Cost of Success, and you reached out to me.

That was my favorite one you've done.

You said that to me several times.

Yes.

And I want to ask you why. I want to ask you, for you. What was the cost for success and why is that resonating with you so much.

Oh, good question. It was a brilliant episode. Can we link that episode in the show notes?

Whatever you like.

Yes, I would like that. Because everyone should. I think it's your best. Out of how many episodes have you done?

2700.

Oh, okay. I haven't listened to 2700. I've probably listened to 500 of them.

Okay. Wow.

Thank you. That was my favorite. And the reason that was my favorite is because I think it was very honest in terms of talking about. In not a bad way. But these are the things that we have to go through in order to get to that other side of success. And this is what is necessary, that you do have to sacrifice things. You don't get everything all the time. I mean, at the moment, like the last five years, we really started making money in about 2014. I started my business in 2004. So for that first 10 years was really, really difficult. A year into franchising, when I was going for all the investment and we couldn't do it. So we had moved into our house just over a year beforehand. And it got to the stage where I had to sell a franchise in order to keep paying our wages and our rent and all of the different things. And I didn't. I didn't sell one on time. And so I was talking to the accountant and she's like, you just. You're out. Like, you've run out of money. Like there's no other. There's no way to find it, there's no way to get it. And I'd already done things like pay staff on my credit card and those. So we were out, Which I don't advise anyone to ever do. But so for that, I had to come back and tell Matt and go, okay, we can't afford to pay our mortgage. We've got to leave and rent out the house next week or we're going to default on everything. And, you know, we moved out with our kids, were 2 and 3 at the time, and we lived in the back of a granny flat, like this dingy, disgusting place for a couple of years. And we lived on $200 a week for two years to try and build it up again. And so we, you know, while on the front end, and this is. While I was getting heaps of media, I won the Telstra Young Businesswoman of the Year award.

Like, this is all happening while you're going through.

Yes. And so it all looked. And it was like it wasn't fake because we were growing really, really fast. So it was Going really well, but I was hanging on by a thread in the back because it was growing so fast that I had to pay for that infrastructure as it was growing and couldn't quite keep up with it. And so the sacrifice of that and how difficult that was, like walking around the grocery store with the calculator and having to figure out what we could put back. And one of my best business moments was, which I know can sound strange, but it was when people say, like, what are you most proud? Like, the moment that makes you the most proud. Kai's favorite food is blueberries. My oldest son. And when we went grocery shopping and I realized that we had enough that we weren't on the poverty line anymore, and I was like, yeah, I can buy blueberries. You can have the blueberries. And he got them, and I let him have them. He's sitting in the front of the trolley. I let it have him right there and then. And he, like, picked them up and shoved them in his mouth, and he was laughing with blueberry juice just running down his face. And I was in the middle of the supermarket bawling my eyes out, just.

Going, but that is your made it moment. I got out of this situation.

Yes. Yeah, it was. And so from that point, I've never been back to there again. But I live in constant fear, of course, that I will. And so I don't think that's a bad thing. It's not a bad thing, but I think with the episode that you were talking about, like, what it takes to be successful, I don't think people realize that.

Are you willing to do that?

Yes.

I'm not saying it has to be that way, but, like, that may be part of your path. Are you willing to say no to your kids over blueberries?

Yeah. Yeah. And many things. Like, they didn't have Christmas presents. We'd get them off, like, council cleanups in that time or get something off Facebook Marketplace. Like, we just didn't have anything. But we. We went to the beach a lot. We went to the park a lot. We still had a lot of fun. I mean, I think sometimes, gosh, I'm glad I wasn't wealthy when I had little kids, or the amount of things I would buy them. I mean, they'd have the cute little linen overalls, all the pretty things. But luckily we didn't. There was no waste at that time. But, yeah, we've only really made good money for, like, 12 years. And so it's been a lot of sacrifice along the way and figuring out what is Important and what is not important and how we can keep that going and what are we willing to sacrifice? And for a while, like, the reason I decided to sacrifice, sell the franchise was the last two years I got into the stage where I was working, like 10 hour days, sometimes 12 hour days. And then at the end, there was like a catalyst of happening where I was walking around the block because I sat on my ass all the time. So sometimes I'd just take a walk around the block and I doubled over thinking I was having a heart attack. And it ended up I was just having a panic attack, but I was there, just like, Just could not breathe. And I came back and I was like, I don't remember not having a headache. I don't remember a time when my hands weren't shaking. Like, I literally cannot remember. I was. My whole adrenal nervous system was just shot because I was trying. I was trying so hard. And at the time, I had wonderful board and people that were helping me on the franchise. And there was one guy who said to me, tina, to be successful in franchising, you need a spine of steel and a heart of gold. And, honey, who is that person? Your spine is all bendy. He was Andrew Simmons, who has vision, Andrew. And I remembered that because I was like, part of me wanted to go, no, I can do this. I can do anything. I love it. I'm gonna stick it out. Like, I can tough it out. But I also knew he was right.

I gotta ask you a question that I know a lot of people who are listening to this, watching this is asking in their head. And that's when you're in that moment where you told Matt, we gotta sell the house, we gotta move to the shed. We're not gonna be able to live the life that we were living. Callan gives you the bad news. Why did you keep going? Why did you not just get a job?

Oh. Cause that would be worse.

I don't say, just get a job, but why? Why did you just, like, not see that as, oh, I failed, this is over. I need to just cut my losses.

Good question. I mean, did it ever cross your mind?

My answer to that question is that I have a level of delusion.

I was gonna say I have unrealistic delusion completely.

I think it's required sometimes, and I think. I think that I enjoy a little crazy in my friends.

Yeah.

Because I think it's required to. To be able to take some leaps of faith.

Yes.

And I know that sounds narcissistic and weird that you're like you're a delusional person. Well, you have to have some level of faith that you can do something that you can't see.

Yeah.

And that's delusion.

Yes.

There's no evidence that you can do this.

Yes.

But then how are you going to get anything done?

Yes. So one of my favorite words is hopium.

Hopium. Tell me about that. Is that opium? The hope?

Yes, like all that. So I am the opposite of a pessimist. So people that are glass half empty, that are risk averse, that is like one end of the spectrum to me. I am overly optimistic about everything. I am very hopeful. I see everything as possible. I think everything is possible. And I have an insanely vivid imagination. So if I look at like the example I used before, I found like the eight business plans of the new businesses that I wanted to create, my problem is often both my blessing and my curse is I can visualize each of those eight businesses as like a possible future. And I can, I can see it. I can see it so clearly. I can see it working. I can see everything happening. And anything is worth it to bring that to life. For me, the idea of taking something from my mind in an idea and watching it actually come to life is insanely good. Like insanely.

You're a pure entrepreneur. Well, yeah, that's what entrepreneurship is. And that's what attracted me to entrepreneurship is when I read it and learned about these people that turn things out of thin air. What is this? Magic?

Yes. And so when I was selling the franchise, like one of those decisions was my board said to me, you're a starter, not a manager. And you are trying to still operate this like a founder and you're breaking it because it needs management and you're not that. And that has been like something I've recognized again and again. And that is where this is why I'm looking at starting a little business on the side is because, like, I get that good at that. I'm good at that and I get that itchiness. But yes, I truly think everything is possible. And at the time, I mean, maybe it was a little bit of the sunk cost fallacy as well is, you know, I had in my mind going over and over again, I haven't come this far to only come this far. I know, I'm like, I believed. I was like right on the precipice. I'm like, the tipping point is there and I'm so close. I'm so close. I just have to get over that thing and I told myself that for years. I was like, I'm even closer now. Like, we're nearly there. But I truly believed that I was, like, one step away from the success I've been chasing for such a long time. And once I got there, everything was going to be okay. And it was. I hear people all the time say, money doesn't buy happiness and you're never at the end. And once, we always say, once we're past this, it's all going to be okay, and then the next problem comes. But truly, once you don't have to worry about money so much anymore, everything is so much easier. Life is so much nicer. So when I hear people say that, I sometimes think, like, have you tried being broke? It's no fun.

I cannot agree more. And I don't think anybody who's being honest with themselves, even billionaires that don't remember what it's like to be poor or has never been poor, can honestly say that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, well, give it all away then.

That's one. But the other thing is that, like, from just a practical point of view, there are things you just cannot see, solve or increase your likelihood of success without funding.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

How do you get healthy without a trainer, without great meals, without healthy food? It's impossible. This is why people in the lower socioeconomic level have health problems, is because they can't afford healthy food. And that's not their fault. We all are going to take personal responsibility and try to get out of that situation. But my point is that we have to recognize the fact that a lot of the problems that we have in our life and in the world can be solved with money. Otherwise, we don't live in a capitalist society. That's you denying the fact that money is a big part of our life.

Yeah. And you asked me about female entrepreneurs before, and this is where, like, I will say, I wish more female entrepreneurs were money hungry. Because a lot of the time women are taught it's taboo or greedy to say, like, you, I'll talk to male entrepreneurs all the time that have no qualms in saying, I want to be a multimillionaire. Never do I hear women say that. And we know wealthy women will change the world. Women give more money away. They support their families, their communities, both consider it and at large, whereas men mostly hoard it for themselves. And so I think if we can encourage more women to be wealthy, it can make such a big change long term.

Yeah, 100%. And I don't like this taboo around earning money. You know, one of the things that I just recently visited my family, we went to each one to Jordan, and I was trying to talk to my nieces and nephews, and I was talking to my sister as well, their parent, their. Their mom. And I was like, I want to change this narrative of, like, we don't talk about money. Like, money is something that we need to learn, and you can't learn about if you don't talk about it. You know, it's okay if you're starting out with not much, but you have to learn how to manage it. You have to learn how to invest it. Like, all these things we weren't taught because, you know, we were. Money was kind of, like, a taboo subject.

Yeah.

Especially like, in immigrant culture. It's like, that's. That's kind of taboo. Don't talk about that. But you kind of grow up not knowing what to do with money.

Yeah. You know, I only bought my first share five years ago.

Okay.

We. We were. I was Robert Kiyosaki. So I bought my first property at 18 and put it all into property, but didn't know about shares and was too scared. Scared about shares the other day. So I ran. Sounds so nerdy, and it is so nerdy. But I ran a whole PowerPoint presentation called welcome to Adulting for my Sons.

I saw that on Social, and I loved the branding, first of all. It was great on that slide. And, you know, I'm sure the editors are gonna put a picture of it right now. But the point is, is that I think that's brilliant.

The kids just don't get taught. And so I was running through with them all the basic stuff. I mean, we covered a lot of different things, but some of it was. And they told their friends, like, about it, going, this is what my mum's doing. And then their friends said, can we come, too? And I ended up with all these kids in the lounge, too.

It's about, like, responsibility, hygiene, health.

Yeah. I covered all the things, but the part that they liked the most was investing in shares and compound interest. I'm like, you're 17 years old. This is what you can have at 65. If you put $50 a week, you're gonna be, like, a millionaire.

Yeah.

Just with that. And they were like. Because a lot of them don't come from money. And so our younger generation have this really hopeless attitude and going, how are they gonna buy a house when the average price is one and a half, $2 million?

And this is what they're being fed in the media.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they're spending money really recklessly because they're like, what's the point?

Well, I think that a lot of us grow up with the mentality that money is meant to be spent. Like, I earn a paycheck so that I can spend it. Like, no. That's a deadly cycle that you are trapped in now. So if you spend everything, then you have to go back to work. And I love Morgan Housel's concept of every dollar saved in the bank. He's a big saver. Like, he invests his money, but he's okay with having cash in the bank, which I understand. And he's like, every dollar I save in the bank is like units of freedom. Like, if I'm in a job and I don't, like, I don't get the promotion I want and I want to move up on my job, I can just say I quit, and I can live six months because I have money in the bank.

I have freedom.

Units.

Yeah.

And I think that that 30 seconds of knowledge needs to be taught.

Yes. The. I had a really great business coach once who talked about, do we swear on this? Don't swear. He had the psychological advantage of was what he called it. And he was like, how much do you need to have that to be able to say no to things that you don't want to do? Because I think one of the biggest transitions in entrepreneurship is you've got to say yes to everything at the start. Like, you don't know what's going to hit. But then if you don't learn when to say no, you're detrimental to yourself. And that's a really difficult switch, because when you start saying no, you think, well, is it all going to disappear? Like, is there different things? Obviously battle with scarcity, mindset in a lot of things. Still working on it a little bit. But he was talking about that. And to me, money always felt ridiculous being in the bank. I was like, I want to use it. If it's not being useful, what's the point of having it there? But that cushion's grown and grown to where I like my psychological level to be, to know if something happens, totally, we're safe 100%.

And I think that one of the things that we learn as entrepreneurs as we grow is there is no right or wrong answer. I am going to do what works for me. You know, some people love having everything in hard assets, real estate. Some people like having a bit of cash so that they can be able to one day just, like, buy something cash. Some people don't like having debt. That's fine as long as, you know, obviously, you want to be fiscally responsible. Yeah, but that's the beauty of. I think entrepreneurship is a team teaches you that you can make the rules.

Yes. Yeah, but that's where, like, the knowledge is still. You still have to know how to do that, and a lot of us didn't learn. It's one of the big reasons I love masterminds so much is you'll hear someone else going, oh, I just did this with my money, or I'm doing this or this kind of tax thing. And you're like, hang on, wait.

You do what?

How does that work? And then people will share all that. Like, I have learned so much from just fellow entrepreneurs being generous with their information that I wouldn't have learned any other way.

Let's say somebody's listening, somebody's watching. They're starting their journey in entrepreneurship. Maybe they're building the first online course. They're going on this path that, you know, we all have gone through. Share with us. What are your top five rules in terms of, like, these are things you need to follow in order for you to have the most likelihood of success.

Okay. I wish I'd rehearsed these ones for top five rules. So I think, okay. There is so much to do in such little time to get traction that too often people are worried about perfection or worried about. You know, sometimes I'll have people with the goal of, I want to create my online course in the next six months. It's like six weeks tops. Like, just get it out there and sell it. Like, make some money. You can't waste time. Too much time. You've got to see if it's going to work and if you need to pivot and change something again so you can sell it first.

My buddy Mario Brown has this line. It says, take massive, imperfect action.

Yes, yes. Constantly. Constantly. Because there's not enough people taking action. There's people doing things to be very busy, but aren't actually moving forward, getting the result. So I have a filter that I run my things through. If I am going, is this worth my time or not? So it's got to have two out of the three things, and one of those is, does it make me money? Does it enhance the customer experience, and does it bring me joy? Very rarely. It will do all three, but if it doesn't do two, it's just not even on the list.

I like that filter.

Yeah, do that One more time. Does it make me money? Does it enhance the customer experience? Does it bring me joy? And I will do things that don't bring me joy if it makes me money and enhances the customer experience. I will do things sometimes if it doesn't make me money, if it enhances the customer experience and brings me joy. So there's often that I'll do too. But if it's less than that, it shouldn't even be on the list. And I think sometimes people are so in the habit of doing things that they think they should be doing that don't actually bring the result. So I think that is a big one. The other is be very strict with your money. There are way too many people that don't know how to read their profit and loss statement. And I think one of the best gifts of being broke is you learn to watch a dollar really carefully. So I am still my best friend. Clint would probably, which we both know, he puts stick on me all the time for my spending habits. So in his mind, and I bet you he's listening right now and going, I spend too much because I like pretty things. But in my mind, I spend so consciously, I spend aware of everything, always. I have wealthy Wednesday, which I actually got from our mutual friend Dale Beaumont, who every Wednesday he told me this years ago, that he sits down, he looks at everything. He looks at his property, his investments, his shares, his bank accounts, his credit cards, and looks at everything and just make sure he's got oversight.

Still wealthy?

Yep. Yep, I'm still good.

Okay, good.

But there's so many things in going. You know, we subscribe to so many useless subscribers. Like the little things are the big things. And having that time where you've got a couple hours a week to go. Do I still need to pay for this? Is this still good? Do I need to take this off? Really respecting your dollar, I think, is a big thing. I think try and keeping as much balance as possible. I kind of scoff in my face when I say that, because there's different times that I will take some areas of life and sacrifice others. So for a long time, unfortunately, that was my health. The most important things to me is my family and my business. And the rest of it kind of fell down for. In my real intense building days, I let a lot of friendships go because I just, you know, if I had that time available, it just. That wasn't high enough on the priority list. So I lost a lot of good friends or the friends stayed there and they forgave Me.

Right.

But I was a terrible friend for a long time.

Those are good friends, though.

They're good friends. Yeah. And your health was the other thing that I sacrificed. But that can only. You can only do that for so long before it's going to really bite in the butt.

Yeah, yeah.

So I try and Try and say keep it as balanced as possible. But I do also know that there's times that you can't have everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's only three.

That's fine. That's great. That's a lot. I want to wrap up by just sharing. You know, we've been friends for a little over two years now, and, you know, we meet a lot. We've gone on holidays together. We've gone on trips. I think that one of the things I. My impression of Tina Tower before I met you was this woman's a firecracker. Like, she's got so much energy. She's doing so much. And, like, this is me seeing you online. I saw you briefly at Dale's birthday, and you gave a speech.

Yes.

In front of his parents, which I thought was very brave of you. And you gave a very heartwarming speech.

One of my favorite people in the world.

Right?

Yeah.

Dale's brilliant. And then we met at Michael Maiden's mastermind. That's kind of first time I got to sit and speak to you and understand who you are. And the feeling I got when we. Nicole and I, started to get to know you a little bit and have conversation was like, this woman gets it. Like, she. Like, I don't have to, like, be something else. Like, she gets the fact, like, I'm unapologetic about how hard I work and how much I care and how much I want to make this happen. I want to win. And I thought, like, that was really refreshing.

Yeah.

Because a lot of people in our space. Not a lot, but you'll come across people that have this front where it's like, no, I'm all relaxed and I'm, you know, things.

I am not relaxed.

Yeah, yeah. You have energy. You know, you have energy and you're willing to put it out there and you're not ashamed of it.

Yeah.

Which I think is great. Because a lot of. Especially in recent times, it's like, you know, oh, I don't lift a finger. I just delegate everything, and I. Whatever. And there is place for that. And I think there's levels to business and all that kind of stuff, but there's nothing.

You can't be too cool to work.

Hard I love it. I love it. And the funny thing is that we say that, but we see Elon Musk in the factory. We see Jeff Bezos going and checking out how we can improve the delivery system.

And know, like, it's like your wonderful wife Nicole, you know, she spoke at our conference this year on. I think the title was like Dollars in the Details, but it's how important those details are. And I do think that that is so essential in that the people that do well, like you, care about the output. You want good results for your clients. Like you really do. I know I hold myself at a very high level of expectation. I want to do well. I want people to think, to me, the worst thing would ever be that, you know, because I think it matters so much what people say when you're not there. And my worst fear would be that someone was like, did her closet. Like, that would be, like, my worst thing ever. And I know not everyone's going to have exceptional results. That would be unrealistic. But I want everyone to know, like, it's. It's as good as it can be. And I tried my hardest. Always. I am like, a quintessential. Try hard.

I love it.

If there was a gold star, I want it.

Yeah. I'm in this, like, WhatsApp group, and I put this meme. It was like, when people ask me, what do I do for a living? And my answer now is my best. I do my best. That's what I do.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's exactly what you just said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no half ass, full ass all the way.

Yeah. There you go. Full ass. Thanks so much, Tina. This has been great, and this is long overdue. I just want to say that from afar, when before I knew you, now that I know you, you've been an inspiration to Nicole and I. You really somebody that I admire not only as an entrepreneur and what you've built, but also who you are as a person.

That is so lovely. Thank you. It is such an honor to be on here. I mean, it's always cool when you get to be on a show that you're like, a fan girl. And so I'll have to print out the COVID and put it on my wall.

There you go. Thanks again, Tina.

What an incredible conversation with Tina Tower. Without a doubt, she is the real deal. Not just because she's built an incredible business, but because how she built it. With intention, with courage, with belief in herself. That belief in herself, you could see it, right? If you're watching the video on YouTube, you could see it in her face. She has an unshakable belief that she can do great things, and that is really inspiring. It's contagious, too, when you sit with her. And this took some time, right? She started young, she started small, and then she built and built and built. It's not overnight.

It's not luck.

It's all about showing up. It's about staying focused. It's about persevering even when things got really bad, as you heard, as you saw in this interview.

I'm gonna tell you something that maybe.

Tina is not gonna be so happy I shared, but I want to share a little bit of what I know of her as a friend. This is really who Tina is. Tina is full of energy. She is ambitious. She is unashamedly somebody that cares about winning. She wants to win. She's competitive, she's hungry. And it's great to see somebody like that. It's great to see somebody that's just like. I'm not ashamed to say that success matters to me. And as entrepreneurs, I think we all can kind of relate to that, that, hey, I don't want to have to apologize for wanting to be successful or wanting to achieve great things to fulfill my ambition and fulfill my potential. So if you want to continue to, you know, ride the Tina wave, right? If you want to continue to learn from her, I encourage you. Check out her free resources and her website over@hermpirebuilder.com free. It's absolutely free. There's nothing, no catch here or anything like that. She. She's put together some incredible set of tools, trainings, some guides that can help you along your path of expertise, whether you're a woman, a man, a wife, a husband, a parent, or whatever. I've learned a ton from her just by being her friend. You can also follow her on Instagram Tina Tower or connect with her on LinkedIn. And all the links are in the show notes over on our website, 100- MBA-NET or in the description below the video on YouTube. A huge thanks to Tina for an honest and inspiring conversation. I wanted to bring Tina on the show because I can't tell this story. I can't share this perspective. I don't know what it's like to be a woman in business, a wife, a mother. This is an incredible educational story that I wanted to share because I know there's people listening on my show that could resonate with that. And if it did resonate with you, let me know. Send me a DM on Instagram. I want to hear if this episode helped you in any way. If you found today's episode helpful and you want more practical business lessons to help you start, grow and scale your business, the best thing you could do is subscribe to this podcast. Hit subscribe or follow on your favorite.

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