Silence Mode

Los zapatos de otra persona. Lost, stuck inside the darkness. Lost, running from the light. Until one day, the light broke through, through the cracks, through the pain, and for the first time, I finally felt alive. I was lost until I was found.

Welcome in to Other People's Shoes. We're calling it Lost and Found. I'm wondering about that in your world today. What have you lost? But then the flip side of that, what have you found? And that's what I love so much about podcasting. I've said this from the very beginning. I would even use the vernacular or the verbiage, the jump. That's what happens in basketball. They start the game. They call it a jump ball. Told people like I'm always on the hunt for the next guest. I'm always on the hunt for the new friend. I'm always looking for that person that maybe has lost their way or has now found their way and want to talk about it. It's what's so amazingly awesome about this show as we say goodbye in a sense to 2026. This is our final season of 2026. We're kind of, as I said, lost and found. And so I found somebody. Lo and behold. We're on our way to Scotland. Never thought I'd say that. To be specific, Glasgow. I don't know what's there. I heard maybe Stonehenge. My guest will obviously help correct. Help me welcome in my new friend, Tom. Tom, how are you today?

Hello, Neil. Very well. And just to correct you, Stonehenge is a long, long way away from Glasgow.

I don't know. And that's why I need a— I need a compass. I need a guide. Anyone interested in being those things for me this morning or today or this afternoon or this evening? What would you say to that?

Don't worry, I'll keep you right. I'll keep you right.

So how far is it from you?

So it's near the bottom of England. So it's a long, long time, probably about 9 hours maybe. But people may correct me. That might not be right.

It's not even in Scotland.

No, it's in England.

Oh, wow.

And don't say that to a Scottish person because they wouldn't be too pleased.

Well, isn't it like the same thing? England, Scotland, you guys are all just in the same neck of the woods. No, it's not the same. I'm kidding.

It's more like Canada, America. Um, Canadians wouldn't like being called, um, American. It's very similar.

Okay. All right. Not the same. We're not using the same language here. Okay. All right. Good to know. All right. Well, what is Scotland famous for? If it isn't Stonehenge, what is it? What is, what is famous about Scotland that would draw me to Glasgow?

Glasgow specifically is an incredible city of diversity and has been of tolerance until lately. We've seen a bit of an uprising, sort of kind of far-right hatred and extremist behavior in regards to race. That's happening all over the world. It's being used by grifters and people to separate us and cause division. But in general, Glasgow is an extremely beautiful, tolerant city. Scotland in general is absolutely beautiful nature. It's been voted the most beautiful country in the world numerous times. Our sort of west coast and the Highland areas are magnificent. You have to see them. We've got some incredible architecture and beautiful sights as well. So the people make Scotland. And our phrase in Glasgow is people make Glasgow. You'll see it all over Glasgow. That's the slogan. Because the people are so friendly. They speak to everybody. You can't do anything without a Glaswegian coming up to you and speaking to you and telling you their life story. So it's an incredibly friendly city.

Well, that's interesting, because to me, I feel like that's what our world needs. We need some open dialogue. You know, listen, if we can't get along, Maybe politically, okay, fine. If we can't get along, maybe theologically, okay, maybe there's some room there, but we should at least be able to respect the human being enough to say, hey, that isn't my— do you like tea better or coffee better?

Coffee.

Okay. So that isn't my favorite cup of coffee, whatever it may be. You may put sugar in yours. I might put hazelnut. But we could still at least agree that coffee is okay to drink, right?

Yeah.

And, and that's the problem is I feel like everybody's like, no, no coffee. No, everyone needs to stop drinking coffee. I'm using that a little bit fictitiously, but you know, I think you're tracking with me, right?

Yeah, man, I get you. It's just people think their point of view, the way they exist, the way they think mine My view, my world is correct and everybody else's is wrong. And then we start to become these little factions and tribalized sections, and then the other then becomes the enemy when diversity and the creativity and flow of the universe and all the different beings and different forms that we have here, we should be celebrating and respecting and loving each other.

Yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. All right, well, help us with this as we officially get started. It's my favorite question to ask, and that's this: What size shoes do you wear?

So in the UK, we use maybe a different system than you guys. So I'm a size 12 in the UK. I don't know what that would be in American sizes, but it's quite big.

So a UK 12, let's see, to US size Is actually, let me see, converts to a US 10. We don't want that in women's. Let me see here. UK equates to a 12.5 to 13 US. So yeah, that's a big shoe. That's some big shoes to fill today, Tom. Just saying, because I worry

I'm up for it.

I wear like a European 44, someone told me. So I remember that because there's 2 fours and 4 is my favorite number. So I don't know, the little things that you remember in life, right? Well, help us with this. Is there a brand or a style of shoe that you like maybe more than another?

So I used to always wear Adidas NMDs. Then I sort of transitioned in my later years to Nike Dunks, Panda Dunks. I've been wearing those for ages, but I don't buy a pair of shoes very often. It's a treat for me.

You don't, you don't buy shoes very often. It's a treat for you. Did I hear that right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Why is that? Why is it a treat for you?

Because I use money and stuff for other things and other means. And I know it's important, like if they get worn, but it takes me a while to wear them out. They last.

Okay. Uh, well, it's always a treat for me to buy a pair of shoes. So that's, it's interesting the phrasing you use there because it feels like Christmas when I get to buy a pair of shoes or my birthday or a special occasion because I'm like, yes, I get shoes. How exciting. Because why does

it bring you so much joy?

I, I don't know. I, I just, uh, I don't know. Maybe, did you feel like this when you were a kid, when you got a new pair of shoes, like you could feel like you could do anything, like you were unstoppable? Did you ever—

fresh start feeling, like clean new— yeah, new journey feeling. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, what am I gonna do in these? What adventures am I gonna take with these? What, what doors could be opened with this new pair of shoes? Yeah.

Do you ever buy shoes and then not wear them, or do you always wear them?

Yes. I, I actually have, have a couple of pairs of shoes actually in the studio that I have bought that just sit on a shelf.

Yeah. Yeah, I always think, I always wonder why people do that. I understand people like the look of them and maybe collectibles, but I think a pair of shoes should be worn. They're an extension of you.

I agree. There are a couple of pairs of shoes that I've retired, retired like I don't wear anymore just because they hurt my feet. Then I don't want to get rid of them. I have a hard time getting rid of shoes also. Probably should see somebody about that. If you know somebody, definitely send them my way that may be able to assist with that. We met, I think, through Facebook. That was our kind of mutual medium of meeting, kind of gathering. You were excited about about coming on our show, and I think eventually we're gonna do what we call a show swap. So look forward to that one day that I'll be on your platform. I say with a great sigh and deep breath, excited about guesting. I feel like I'm not in control. I don't get to ask the questions. Why on earth would you want to come on a show in America talking about things that are lost and found? Why did that resonate, and why was that so important to you? Do you feel like—

I'm at a stage now where what I lost And then what I found is so inspirational and inspiring and changing for other people that I need to spread the message of what I found and the techniques on how other people can then find and lose what I did. I was in isolation for a long period of time practicing and integrating all the things that happened. And here I am now ready to share the message, the techniques, kindness, compassion, and wisdom that has spawned from all the stuff that happened to me. So here I am. I know my work is going to reach America and the other continents as well. And I'll be traveling around very, very soon as it is all growing and taking off. So looking forward to sharing my message with you guys because we are all one and I'm trying to break through this divisive division that's been created to remind everybody of our true nature.

I think that's the challenge sometimes is getting to understand the fact that there are other thoughts and other thoughts are okay. We don't have to drink them down. We can at least hear them and respect them and be nice about it. What is that lost moment for you first? We'll start with that because that's kind of the way the phrasing is, lost and then found. Of course, if you want to follow it up with that found moment.

For my childhood and growing up, going to university and all that stuff, I had quite a fixed and strong identity structure, how I viewed and seen myself, and then how I acted to try and maintain this view of myself that I had created. So it was Tom, always played rugby. I don't know if you guys are aware, rugby, kind of like pre-American football. I don't know if you guys adapted it. It's similar, probably rougher because we don't wear all the head guards and the pads that you guys do. It's a very brave sport, and that gave me a lot of sense of fulfillment, purpose, connection, and sense of self through success and then building my identity around that. So when I went to university, that all fell away. I stopped playing, started partying, girls, drink, drugs, music, all of the things that come around that age. My identity that I'd built around Tom, the rugby captain, player, all of that had fallen away, and I didn't know who I was anymore. I lost the sense of me or who I thought I was. We all create our identity of who we think we are, be it in relation to what you do, your job, your hobbies, how you feel, your thoughts, your emotions. And then we build this big ball of self with all these parts, but we see it as a whole. And what can happen is that can start to break down. And when that does, we lose that sense of self, or it becomes a bit transient. When that started to break down, I noticed, I realized, who am I? Or what is the identity? And this set me on An inward journey of self-inquiry into what is the self, what is the sense of me. I was deeply unhappy at this point. I was going out. The only thing that was giving me fulfillment was alcohol, drugs, raves, because I love my dance music. Then I started taking it too far, which led to an overdose experience at the age of about 22, 23, where I was at a party and I did overdose and die at the party, and I was brought back. Using something called naloxone, which saved my life because somebody came into a room and found me where I just went to lie down. It was unintended, it was just reckless, and it was just pushing the boundaries too far. I was brought back. That didn't even stop what was going on. I had no sense of fulfillment. I didn't know who I was, where I was going, even though from the outside I had a loving family, friends, university, successful, all of this. But inside, I didn't know who I was. So this led to years and years of like despair. And then overdose happened. And then later on I was like, right, I'm going to make something of myself because I've always been told, Tom, you could do it. And I believed that myself too. So I was like, I'm going to start a business. So I ended up starting like a holistic medicine business and moved down to Glasgow because I was in Aberdeen at the time studying. I moved down to Glasgow, started the business, opened up a shop, had staff, online presence. It was building. Then COVID hit. Boom, COVID closed my shop, lost the staff. Loss is the theme here. Loss of sense of self, trying to find fulfillment through external means. Initially drugs, alcohol, partying, music, food. None of those things worked. None of those gave me any sense of true satisfaction because all of those things are momentary relief. So when you reach for the chocolate bar, it satisfies you for what, 10, 20 seconds? And then your mind thoughts craving comes. Got another one. You want to go outside, you want to do something, you want to see somebody, you want to go partying, you want to go drinking. You do that, then you feel terrible. It's momentary relief, and then it's long-term dissatisfaction, discomfort, and suffering. I tried to exhaust all those things thinking it was going to bring me peace, joy, contentment. Then what happened was I was like, right, okay, it must be business. It must be money, success, power. That's why I started the business, tried to then find it through those means, realized I wasn't even experiencing it through those means. I was like, what actually brings true Contentment, peace, and fulfillment. And that's when the business crumbled. The identity structure crumbled again because I tried to rebuild it now as Tom the businessman. Then that crumbled. And then during COVID I was just in deep meditation and practice because I'd found meditation by this point. Just started dabbling into it, and I had a very big experience with my identity structure and all the things I thought was Tom completely disappeared. And what was left was what was underneath. Knowing pure consciousness, direct experience, or Buddhism, they call it Buddha nature, and in Christianity, they call it Christ consciousness. It's the knowing quality of consciousness that was evident because my whole identity structure fell away. Maybe if someone's experienced ego death or anything like that before, that's kind of a form of it, but not the same. So it was a very powerful awakening experience that changed my life from that point on. I lost my identity structure and everything to the point where there was no me left, and what was left It was a more fundamental aspect of consciousness that I found. I found our true nature that now I want to teach other people to find.

So drugs are bad? Is that what I'm hearing?

Everything in moderation.

Okay. All right.

Even moderation.

Okay. I've never had a near-death experience. I had a really bad moment in Mexico. I had a really bad moment in Cancun. I don't really remember it. My wife was there. She was not a big fan of mine. Let's just say that. My point that I'm trying to get to with that, in a little bit of silliness, a little bit of is the fact that it sounded like you were running from something. Am I wrong in that assessment?

I was running from the internal world that was so tumultuous and suffering, the internal suffering. So I thought by trying to add more through external means, that that would give me relief from my internal world, which it didn't.

You're an athlete. Rugby's tough. I do know rugby. It, I think, has sort of made its way here. I think our US team, our women's team at least, won like bronze. I don't know. I could be wrong on that. Rugby's tough. It takes a tough hombre. It takes a tough person to play rugby. My experience, I would never want to play rugby. No, thank you. How do you go from like this amazing rugby player to then dabbling into drugs? That evolution doesn't track with me.

Because even when I was playing rugby, I was still out partying and everything like that too. But it was more on like exploratory, younger sense. When I went to university, escalation went on into what I was taking, the frequency, maybe not having those positive other aspects of my life in place, like support network, not being there, not doing the rugby, because those fell away too. I was kind of left with maybe only the relief from the substances rather than maybe the other things that were propping up that sense of self at the time.

And I've seen that in other athletes. They're trying to get that rush or that high again of sports success. And they're trying to chase that feeling of invincibility that they experienced on the field. Was any of that accurate of you?

You know what, I've actually never thought about it in that way. The rush I used to get from playing, the congratulations, the pat on the back, that is reinforcing that identity structure, that sense of me. And the joy, the compassion, joy in like the thrill, buzz you would get, especially from like a violent sport like rugby when you used to score or big tackle, the crowd. Like, it was— I actually didn't think of how much that high-energy, high-intensity states that I thrived in and like lived in for most of my life at that point. Maybe go to university. That falling away, me not playing, realizing all the stuff I haven't been dealing with or whatever, my internal world, none of that was there anymore. And I think maybe life went a bit flat.

We've had other past athletes, I know they've shared that. They've shared the fact that when all the applause stopped, when all of the accolades stopped, the awards, the achievements, achieve, achieve, achieve, when all of that goes away, in a sense, like music, talked about how you like rave music, when that music fades down, Then what? You're left with the silence. And the silence is sometimes more louder than the applause were. The silence is sometimes louder than the music ever was. The silence is so much louder. It just made me think about that, that you try to replicate that or fabricate that, simulate that in some way of trying to get that back again. I don't know if you know who Joe Montana is. Do you know that name? Does that resonate with you at all?

I've heard the name. Can you just, like, remind me of who it is? I've heard the name before.

Yeah, sure. He was highly successful '80s and early '90s. He played for the San Francisco 49ers. Francisco 49ers. He won like, I don't know, 5 Super Bowls or something crazy like that. He can barely get out of bed now and walk. He has constant pain in his body. And he was on one of my mentors— I love his show, his name's Dan Patrick Sports Talk Show. Dan asked him, he said, hey Joe, if you had to do it all over— Dan doesn't even get the question out and Joe Montana answers. He said, yeah, of course I would do it in a second. Like, can I sign up right now? And everyone laughs. They're like, hahaha, that's funny. But he said Dan, think about it. 15 years of my life, 80,000 people are cheering my name, are shouting me, are wearing my jerseys, are praising me, and I'm winning, and I'm, you know, highly successful, and I have a beautiful wife and all these things. I don't think people realize how much of a high and how much of an excitement that is. Until you've experienced it, you really have no idea. And that's why when you were talking about that, I thought, I wonder if the drugs, and again, I'm not throwing rocks at you did drugs, your body, your choice. Wonder about that. Wonder sometimes when people get into drugs, if they're looking for that validation of who they are or the flip side of that coin, perhaps, are they looking to escape from something that they're running from? And maybe it's both.

Oh, I agree. I think most definitely you're running from your internal world, parts of yourself that you've maybe repressed or pushed away, negative emotions, sensations, feelings, anxiety. We've all met somebody who can't sit in silence. They'll just speak and speak and speak. And when there's a moment of silence, Again, whenever questioned, that person is feeling so much anxiety in those moments because like you say, silence allows what is underneath to sort of come to the surface. And you have to then— your awareness that is on the outward world turns inward and starts to be aware of what's happening inside. And when that starts happening, you've got to start dealing with your stuff, all the stuff that you've pushed under the carpet. And then when you push too much stuff under the carpet, it's eventually going to spill out. It's about then turning your awareness inward and starting to do some introspection and being aware of your internal world and start to do some healing.

How do you make that shift, that pivot moment? I'm projecting here, so please, of course, correct me. But it sounds like you were very self-centered, very selfish, very Tom-driven, like Tom is the center of the universe and everything revolves around Tom. And then you make this shift where you're now kind of others-centered, and how can you help others, bless others, and guide others? That seems like quite the evolution.

So if you knew me then, maybe some people may have thought I was like that. I wasn't like that at all. I was so self-conscious even when I was younger. That's where that achieved mindset was coming from. I hated my body. I hated myself. Like, I didn't know what was going on. Like, I thought through achievement and validation from others and business and money and all this stuff was going to make me feel okay with myself. But it wasn't at all. And I've always had a big heart and wanted other people to be included and inclusive and always wanted good for others. How anxious I was and self-conscious I was, maybe building this really strong character or personality structure and achiever winner. Maybe I did come across as self-centered or selfish at But it's not my true nature, never has been. When I realized that identity structures are illusory, we reinforce identity structures. Okay, so you've probably got a view of yourself, Neil, right? Your husband, and she probably views you or your identity in a completely different way. Your parents will look at you in a completely different way. The sun, and have different views of you. Your friends, each friend will have a different view or an identity structure that they project onto you. And everybody tries to reinforce their own view of you. Yeah. And how you are. None of these are true or real. They're all just their own person's interpretation of you. Your own sense of self is your own interpretation of you that you try to uphold through all these different ways or means, or think you have to uphold. We can drop all of these. All these different people that know you all view you differently. There's not one fixed solid Neil. There's multiple Neils to every different person, and they're all individualized to them. So it's about being able to let go of who we think we are and step beyond the identity structures that we create for ourselves.

That's very perplexing for me. I believe that I'm the same person no matter who I'm with. Is that what you're saying, or am I misunderstanding that?

You believe you're the same person to every person that you meet. Every person that meets you has a different view or identity that they project onto you, how they see you at work. Work Neil, work colleagues view Neil, and their structure, how they think you are, may be completely different to the Neil that your wife knows. Or the parts of her that she projects onto you for safety, love, companionship, or quirkiness, or all this different stuff, or your vulnerable side. Then you'll meet your siblings who then view you slightly differently, different roles, different expectations, different views of you. Then people who don't know you might have their views or identity on your appearance. Okay, there's so many different ways that people will view you. None of these structures or identity structures are fixed or solid. They're parts. Our problem is we see the sense of self or identity as one thing, when in fact it's parts. It's many parts, many views, many interpretations. Viewing it as one fixed solid thing is what causes the suffering.

How does one fix that, or do they?

Great question. We do that by first— right now you're aware of my voice, the camera, the screen. Your awareness, your knowing is in the outward world. What we do is we turn our knowing into our internal world. So we start to observe what's going on inside. So through sensation, thoughts, and contemplation. So self-inquiry, it's called vipassana. In Buddhism. So that's called self-inquiry. So what we do is we sort of start to break down all of these layers that we've built that are our sense of self. So if it's in regards to Neil, you look at who do I think I am? Okay, you can start to write down, okay, son, partner, work colleague. Okay, so those are your identity through what you do. Then you would write down maybe hobbies, you've got all your hobbies, different stuff like that. Then you could write down some personality traits or whatever you think you've got. And what you realize is all these different parts, And if you don't apply any of these to who you are, then who are you? But what you do— base our identity structure on who we are and what we do. And these are all objects of experience rather than subject. So subject-object is a great thing you have to sort of start to understand. For you to know me, there's got to be a you and a me. There's got to be other. It's got to be two. So for us to start to know our direct experience, we need to understand subject-objects. But I won't go into that in particular. But if you want to go deeper with self-inquiry, that's a good thing to start to understand. So what you need to do is you start to break down your identity structure. By realizing, oh yeah, I think I'm Tom the captain because I play rugby. I think I'm Tom husband. I think I'm Tom brother, family member. And what you start to do is then you start to have to reinforce these identity structures by, I need to act a certain way. And what you start to do, you start acting in a certain way to try and keep this identity structure alive, which thinks it's one solid thing. And that's called the ego. When we realize the ego isn't one thing, it's parts. And then we start to break it down slowly by doing that introspection and self-inquiry. That starts to then loosen. It can happen in one big go. Have you ever heard of Eckhart Tolle? Other people like that. No, go and read his book called The Power of Now. It's a very transformative book, short book, very, very transformative. His experience was amazing, what happened to him. So it can happen in one big bang. It can happen like what happened to me, where I experienced like directly in one big go, or sort of broke down and had the big experience. Or you can do it through self-inquiry where you turn inward, you slowly break it down, then you'll have a direct experience that this little sense of you, the little you, isn't one solid thing.

I think that's the hard part of life. It feels like is when it comes to looking inward, we get nervous about that, especially I feel like maybe in the West, we think the answer isn't inward because I've heard it said the heart is deceptively wicked. Who can understand it? I've even heard people say, well, my feelings give wrong directions. How can we trust our feelings or how can we trust our inner self to really understand what's happening? Because again, it sounds like that's what you're saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's important to understand that everything is interconnected. Everything in life. You need the weather, you need food. For you to be alive, there had to be your parents. For you to be breathing right now, there needs to be oxygen in the air. You need the weather systems, you need the whole planet. Everything in our universe is completely interdependent. A good analogy is like an apple seed. So you have an apple seed. The apple seed can't turn into the tree without the sun, being planted in the right conditions, without the right weather. So that can't then transform and change and grow into the apple tree without those different parts. You're exactly the same. We see ourselves so separate from everything, the planet, the universe at first, before we start to practice. And we realize that without all these parts that come together, that you wouldn't be here. So you're causal and everything is interdependent.

It seems super odd to me that we have to go inward in order to come outward.

Yeah.

That has always troubled me. I have spoken with, I'm not going to say exactly people like you, that sounds very judgy, like, oh, they're just like you. Similar in some respects who have come on and who have said, listen, Neil, it starts inward before it You have to get inward in your heart. You have to sit quiet. You have to sit in your feelings. You have to sit in the muck. The answer's inward. You don't need external things. It's inward. And I'm like, what? That is still baffling to me. Do you remember Rubik's Cubes? Are you old enough for that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, to this day, have never solved a Rubik's Cube. And I feel like sometimes when somebody says to me, hey, Neil, there's some inward work that needs to be done in you, I, in my mind, imagine someone handing me a Rubik's Cube and said, okay, here's the inward work. Go fix this. Up the colors and I'm like, yeah, that's never gonna happen. I don't know the pattern. Not being disrespectful, I've seen those Asian kids do it in like 5 seconds or less and they're blindfolded. I'm like, how do they do that? And I feel like it's the same thing when someone says to me, hey, inward work, you gotta sit quiet, you gotta look inward before it can come outward. That's, that's where my angst is, I guess you could say.

The issue here is in the West we try to solve everything With the mind, with thoughts. So you're trying to apply thought-based thinking and problem solving in the mind to try and clear something that is beyond the mind. The mind and the body, the world is arising within another space that we don't really connect with at first until we turn inward. What we try to do is calm the mind so much that the mind calms, the body calms, and then there's a more fundamental aspect of consciousness that is underneath. That's what you're trying to Access, and you access that by shanta and calm the mind, and then it presents itself. It's here right now. The state is here right now. There's just so many layers on top of it that you can't experience it, and you're not experiencing it. And that's why I'm talking about awareness, because you know that experience is happening right now. You know the internal world sometimes is hard to go into, and you don't want to sit in it. But the only way to clear it is by resting as awareness and allowing it all to move, and it starts to clear itself. Don't need the mind to do any of this. You can't. Figure this out with the mind, with thought, because you're trying to go pre-thought. You're trying to go to the layer of consciousness that is below thought, which is awareness, is knowing. Because you know thoughts, you know that you're thinking. So whenever we talk about subject-object, for you to know the thought, there has to be a you and the thought. Because right now you might think you are the mind, all the thoughts in your head, you might think that's you. But for me to know you and you to know me, there's got to be a you and a me. So for you to know thoughts, you can't be the thought. There has to be two, there has to be other, and the other is awareness. And that's why I keep pointing to awareness. That is pre— more fundamental to thought. So there's another aspect to consciousness that we're trying to connect to. And that's what you need to connect to when you're doing the internal work and just allow. We need to get out of the head, stop trying to problem solve with the mind, with thoughts, and allow by dropping back into this more fundamental aspect of consciousness and stuff starts to clear and heal and all this really cool stuff starts happening.

I had a friend, never met him face to face, a couple of years ago did mushrooms and went away on a retreat. I say retreat because that's the way he described it to me. It was a weekend when he came back from it, he told me that he had done this. And I always think of him as a pretty brilliant person, for the record. He's been on my show numerous times. I would even consider him a darn near best friend in podcasting, even though we've never met face to face. We've shared numerous texts and numerous phone calls. Great guy. Still have a lot of respect for this guy. But I will tell you, when he told me that, my respect meter did drop a little bit for him. You're such a brilliant person, yet you did this in my mind. And again, This is my mind. Something very dumb, something very, in my mind, unsmart, uneducated. And he's like, listen, Neil, I did a ton of education. I did a ton of research. You should know I wouldn't do something like this if I didn't think about it. I'm like, I get it. I can't understand why somebody would want to do that. Forgive the angst. That's the part I'm having a hard time with. I don't like sitting quiet. And maybe that's the crux, the weed, the root issue. When I get quiet, it gets scary. And I'm not hide under your bed scary. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm sometimes afraid of my own thoughts. Like I was saying, like sometimes they can give wrong directions. Sometimes they can be bad. They're generally never uplifting or guiding or pleasant. Do you follow that?

Thoughts are just thoughts. So we need to remind us you're not your thoughts. Your thoughts are just like if you hear a sound in the world, if you hear the birds chirping or the wind, thoughts come in the mind and then they go. You are what knows the thoughts. So you need to start detaching from the thoughts. Everybody has intrusive thoughts. So you're driving the car, what if I hit that person? What if this happened, right? You're not a bad person because of that. Thoughts come into the mainstream, they're known by awareness, and then they leave. What happens is we think we are the thoughts, or they're our thoughts. There's little bits of information, stuff that's happened, worry, fear, anxiety, like subconscious stuff. You've been watching the news, stuff just pops in, it pops out, and it's what you choose to grasp onto. Then starts to resonate, then you get sensation in the body, you get fear. So please know, if you hear my voice now and you're listening to this, You are not your thoughts. Detach from them. Just see them as they come in, they come out. It's just like hearing a sound. They're not you. And you're not bad because a bad thought comes in your head. It happens all the time to everybody, okay? When we start to get quiet, your awareness is not in the outward world. You're not keeping yourself busy. Then what starts happening, you're noticing all the internal stuff going on. You might notice emotions start to come up. These thoughts, you might notice thoughts more because your awareness is now located inward. And that's just about allowing. So not attaching, just allowing, allowing the emotion to come up and it clearing. So it's actually healing work you're doing by sitting in that silence. You're noticing you're scared because finally you're allowing the body and the mind to heal. Because you're being quiet, these emotions are surfacing, they're starting to clear. You're not repressing them anymore, you're not pushing them down. And that's why you're scared of the silence, to go inward. And that's why anxious people talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, because they don't want to address the internal world and start the healing process. And your friend who went on the mushroom retreats, don't see that as a negative thing. These psychedelics are incredibly healing, done in the right circumstances, the right retreat settings. They give you these direct experiences a lot quicker. I've done mushrooms Loads of times, DMT, loads of different psychedelics throughout my time. They are incredibly powerful tools done under the right circumstances for then you to do the healing work afterwards, to start meditating and doing the right processes. They're a great gateway into healing and expanding consciousness. So try to stay open. I want to ask you, what made you think that that was dumb or a bad move? Is it your fear around it?

100%. Yeah, 100%. It's my fear around it. Yeah, for sure. His choice, his body. We have a thing in the West, maybe you've heard about it. People are up in arms about abortion and rightfully so. So I don't think babies should ever be killed. That's my personal belief. There's a movement that says my body, my choice that women have kind of embraced, taken that and said, well, hey, it's your body, your choice. If you want to do ayahuasca or whatever it may be, that's your choice. But now again, like we were talking about initially, now if somebody tries to force me to say, no, Neil, you have to do it, uh, that's where we maybe draw the line and say no, that, that's your choice. That's not my choice. Don't force your choice on mine, if that makes I don't like to feel out of control. And maybe, again, that's a root issue in my life that I'm trying to weed out, is I don't like to feel out of control. And I feel like in those moments of sitting quiet, in those moments of trying to be still, there's a sense of I'm giving up that power of control.

Are you in control of the weather? Are you in control of the political landscape, the world, everything else that's going on around you? Really? Are you really in control of much?

I feel like I'm in control of me, though. I agree with what you're saying, is I— yes, I'm not in control Control of the weather. I wish I would. That'd be amazing because every day would be about 70 degrees Fahrenheit, which I don't know what that translates to Celsius. That's what I'd like, and I'd like you know rain when I want it, and then when it's not raining, then yeah, fine. I mean, I would make sure that it rained enough, you know, not all the time. But yeah, I'm not in control of anything except I feel like me. Are you saying I'm not in control of me?

Well, what is the you? That is what we need to start looking at. When I was talking about before about the ego. Or the sense of self, the solid sense of self that we think we initially are, that is constantly trying to prop itself up and be in the driving seat. It's actually different things. It's actually parts, but it thinks it's a whole and it sits in the driving seat. It thinks it's you. So you right now think you're Neil, the body, you're the mind, you're in this little separate world and you're walking around. That is constantly trying to keep itself in the driving seat by being in control. What happens is you try to control everything around you and what eventually starts happening is it doesn't work. It's going to crumble at some point. What you can do is you can go, right, I'm going to surrender. I'm going to lie down. I'm going to start meditating. I'm going to start letting go and learning to let go. As you learn to let go, the ego starts to freak out because it realizes, no, no, no, no, don't. You start seeing through the one thing as a whole as parts, and it starts to diminish until you understand and realize what's underneath. So what's happening is you're trying to keep everyone around you in check to try and reinforce this separate sense of self and ego structure. It's transient, it's illusory. By starting to practice in the silence and letting go, it starts to unravel, and it's scared to unravel. That's where the fear is coming from. That's why you're like trying to control everything around you. It's an anxiousness as well because you're scared to go anywhere to start this process. This process happens to everybody. at different times. So it may happen to you soon. Even after this conversation with me, you might be sparked an interest. Maybe a listener might start going, I'm going to do a little bit of self-inquiry. I'm going to start meditating just to see what he's talking about, see what can happen. It's truly transformational because that is what I found.

During that quiet time, during that quiet meditation, was there a moment where in a sense the dam broke, maybe emotions came and the reality came? Could you walk me through what that moment looked like? Again, not to compare your moment to a moment someone else might have. What was that moment like for you?

Yeah, so there was one really powerful moment that happened to me where I was in deep meditation. I had like Om chanting on, you know, Om, it's like the vibration of the sound of the universe. And I was in deep, deep meditation. And then suddenly it was like, boom, all identity structure, everything I thought was me was gone. And all that was left was just this knowing, like boundless presence, this knowing quality. And that's something called self-realization, where the ego structure falls away and what's underneath comes. So the ego and the separate sense of self gets out the driver's seat, it gets kicked off the bus. And what was actually truly the all along reveals itself. And that's why, like, in the Bible and stuff, like, Jesus points to the kingdom of heaven is within. That's what he's pointing to. These are internal states. All this right now is the dream, is the movie, is the play, and it starts to crumble and unfold until consciousness comes back to itself, wakes up to its true nature again. That's waking up. When you hear people talking about awakening and waking up, it's you wake up from you. So Tom doesn't wake up, Neil doesn't wake up. You wake up from the separate sense of Neil that was always the character in the show. That's how the one presents itself as the many and interacts with itself. It creates these little characters through the ego identity, for these fixed solid things that then eventually everybody realizes it crumbles and you come back to yourself. And that's awakening.

It was a moment then.

Oh, it was the most powerful moment of my entire life that changed my life. Obviously built up to that point through my identity structure weakening and falling away because of that solid sense of self for the rugby player and all that, going into university and try to find it and realizing it was all crumbling. And then the meditation and it just went bang. Another guy, Eckhart Tolle, was in such a deep sense of depression. He was like, couldn't go on anymore. longer. He was suicidal. His sense of identity structure was so strong, it can't maintain itself because it's parts trying to maintain itself as one thing. That's why it's constantly trying to reinforce itself through thinking who it is and through external means— drugs, alcohol, different stuff like that, stimulation. Then eventually it just goes bang and it can't take it any longer, and then you can have these awakening experiences. So from the mud grows a lotus. A lot of the time suffering can bring on initial awakening experiences, and meditation and spiritual practices too.

There have been moments in my life where I've been deep in prayer, called to a fast, I come out of the fast and I have this, I'll say, great awakening that happens. My mind has time to slow down. My mind has time to really focus. I had a 4-day fast and out of that fast, I came up with 2 seasons for my podcast. My mind was finally quiet enough that I could create and I could really percolate. I would use that word. And I like fasting. It's a spiritual thing for me when I do it. I don't do it all the time. I do it in seasons and it's never just 1 day. Generally, it's 4. I don't know why. I just like 4. It feels complete. Complete. I know everybody's like, oh no, seven's the perfect number. Well, mine's four. I feel like four everyone gets a piece. It's in those quiet moments. It's in the fasting. It's in the prayer. It's in the meditation. My meditation, I think, sounds a little different than your meditation because my meditation is just quiet, and sometimes I'll throw on maybe some ocean sounds in the background because I like the ocean, and I just sit in the ocean, and sometimes I might go to sleep. Like I might take a little nap. My wife's like, oh, you're napping. I'm like, no, I'm I'm meditating. She goes, it looks like you're napping. I'm like, they look similar. So what do you make of

that? So there's different forms of meditation. Meditation is bringing yourself into a more state of quietness and allowing and being aware. It's what you're aware of in that moment. So if you're using sound, if you're out cutting the grass, you've got your nice sound on and you're just being present with the sound, you're just keeping your awareness and just knowing the sound. Or maybe right now we can just— if you're listening to the sound of my voice, just bring your awareness to the sound of my voice. So when I'm speaking, you're just holding your awareness on the sound, the vibration. And what it does is it brings awareness into the present moment through using an objective experience. And what you're doing is you're stopping the mind projecting, so worrying about the future and all the stuff you've got coming up, or the deadlines at work tomorrow, or the replaying and being stuck in the past, something you did or said, or maybe you were cringy, or a work colleague, or you heard somebody doesn't like you. And then the mind is in the past, the mind is stuck in the future. So you're using awareness to bring yourself back into the present moment by using an object of experience. So you can use sensation. If you're walking, you can just feel the ground underneath your feet, just keep awareness on the sensation of the ground on your feet. And then your mind will— you'll get lost in thought again, you'll get lost in the future, you got lost in the past. And when you come back, when the mind, when awareness kicks back in, you go, oh, I'm lost in thought, you just come back to whatever you're using. So come back to the sound. Like if you're cutting the grass, listening to music, come back to the sound when you realize you're lost in thought. And every time that you come back, that's like the rep at the gym, you're increasing your awareness, it's keeping you in the present moment, you're going to be listening to the sound, keeping awareness on the sound, just nice and relaxed, then you're gonna be lost in thought, it happens, and then just come back to the sound. You do that over and over again until you can maintain awareness in the present moment for ages, it starts happening. And what starts happening is your presence in daily life and how you show up in daily life starts changing because of this practice. Because when you're sitting with somebody, you can listen to them properly because you can keep your awareness on them speaking. Because a lot of time when we're speaking to somebody, you're in your own head, you're in your own mind, you can't remember what they said because you're thinking about, worrying about all the stuff from the past, worrying about stuff in the future. You're not even listening to them, you're not present with them. So through this meditation practice and bringing yourself back into the present moment again and again, that's you building the muscle at the gym. You're building the muscle of awareness, and then it starts to seep into every area of your life. And that's where the joy, compassion, contentment starts coming in. Because in the present moment, none of that stuff matters. Right here, right now, none of that stuff matters. You always hear, be present, be present. That's what they're talking about. But you have to build that through meditation.

I think that's the greatest struggle people run into nowadays is being present in the moment. I actually, a couple of months ago, I downloaded an app. I have to remember what it's called because I can never find it on my phone. I actually put it on the main screen because I could never find it. It's called Forest. And so what it does is it locks your phone out and in the background, It's growing a tree. And if you interrupt it, it uproots the tree. It's this craziest thing ever. I think it's kind of silly that I have to have an app on my phone that is planting trees every time I do it. You can check it out for yourself. I'm not getting paid to talk about this app by any means. I really like it because it stops me from looking at my phone, essentially is what it does. And it makes me present in the moment. I don't want to uproot the tree. Nobody wants to uproot trees. We don't want to be monsters, have deforested trees. I'm not a tree-hugging person. It's a fictitious tree, by the way. But you can also, through the app, actually, you can send them money and they help plant trees in real life. So you can actually go and see a tree that you helped pay for, which I think is kind of cool. Putting my phone away. And recently, again, because I've been maybe convicted on this, when I go to breakfast with somebody or I go to a meal with somebody, I put my phone in my pocket. I leave it in my pocket. I know. Ah, revolutionary. I don't look at my phone. I don't pull my phone out. I don't put it on the table next to me. Phone just flipped over. It's not even in the vicinity of where I am with the person. That's what I've personally done. Been convicted on that because I want to be more present.

Yeah, that's lovely, man. I really resonate with that completely. That's a great thing to do. It's seen as rude here in the UK to have your phone out at a meal with somebody else. And when you look around and you've seen people at restaurants together, like they'll be sitting and they'll both be sitting on their phones. I mean, I've been guilty as well. Especially when stuff's busy in my phone, getting notifications and stuff like that. If you're with that person, like, it's so important to be present with them. Spend that time with them because how often— how many hours a day? 6, 7 hours screen time on your phone? Like, is average? Is normal? Especially younger people, it's constantly keeping you engaged on the app because you're being advertised to constantly. They're just making money from our data and from us keeping us overstimulated. Our nervous systems are overstimulated. We're completely overstimulated. We can't And then look internally, do the work. We can't sit quiet. Our minds are so busy because we're so used to being in this hyperactive fight-or-flight state. So it's so important like you do. I really, I think that's a lovely thing to do. And if people are listening as well, please do that too because you'll have such a better relationship with the ones around you.

One question I have for you, and then I want to get to how someone can connect with you. But if someone is brand new, I mean, they're like an infant baby, never thought of meditation, too woo-woo, new agey, they got to have spa music on in the background, which by the way, I love spa music. So shout out to spa music people that make it. Reiki music, shout out to them. Love the Reiki music. Somebody right now is, again, an infant, brand new, never thought of meditation before, has some stigma around it, thinks it's too, again, woo-woo, too touchy-feely. How would someone start, in your mind, a practice of meditation?

Perfect question, because this is what I'm here to do. When I learned to meditate, there was so much out there. There were so many YouTube videos. There were so many different styles, techniques, And I spent the best part of 10 years in isolation and practicing and finding the best different methods. So what I did was I created like an app on your phone and you can just guide you through it step by step. It starts with 5 minutes a day and all you do is you put your headphones on. I've westernized it, so I use like analogies that we can understand and connect with because a lot of these practices are from the East and they've been translated and the analogies and the stories are centuries old of what they use and they can relate So what I've done is I've westernized all this, right? All you do is you can go on Middle Wave, it's called, and it's on Awakened Energy Healing, or you can type in Middle Wave. And it's literally, you can download it free. It's free for 30 days, so you can practice it for 30 days. Starts with a 5-minute session. Put your headphones on, I guide you through the meditation through my voice, and there's special sound technology underneath it too. So I use different frequencies, brainwave frequencies, to help this all happen quicker as well. Because the biggest problem is no one's got time these days. People don't have time to meditate for 3, 4 hours a day. They used to do in the caves back in the East and Tibet and all these different places. Best thing to do is start with 5 minutes. Don't start and sit doing an hour because it's going to be too much for you. Your mind is not going to be used to it. It's just, it's going to be crying out for something to stimulate it because it's not used to sitting in silence and your body either. The best way to start is to go on to Middle Wave. So you can go on themiddlewave.com or Awakened Energy Healing, or you can go through my socials as well. That'll all be in the description. You can do it free for 30 days on Middle Wave. I add you straight into our community where we all support each other and you can connect directly with me and I keep you motivated too. And you start with 5 minutes and I'll teach you to meditate and then it progresses and progresses and progresses and it is truly life-changing. And some of the, honestly, the accounts and reviews and people I've supported calm their minds, bring more joy, love, compassion, contentment, and kindness into their life, and uncover what is underneath all this noise.

Well, let's face it, the world is a noisy place. That's why they have noise-canceling headphones.

It is indeed.

Which I'm hearing are bad for you. Somebody told me that. They're like, do you realize that it's bad for you to listen to noise-canceling headphones? I'm like, it's not bad for me. I love it. Have you heard that?

Yeah. I don't know. I've got them on right now. I can't hear anything else.

If Tom does it, everyone should do it, right? That's how it works. Tom, is there a website? Is there a social media? What is the Tom ecosystem? How can folks get in touch with you? What's the best way? All the fun things to direct them back to you if they, again, they're interested and they want to reach out. How can they do that?

So if anyone wants to connect with me, you can do— I do one-on-one sessions, I do healings, and I do— my biggest thing is the Mediwave app and the Path of Conscious Transformation. That's where I teach you to meditate from beginner, uh, totally transform How you view, perceive yourself in the world. So really supportive. And if you want to do that, you can type in themiddlewave.com or you can go on awakenedenergyhealing.com and you can find it all through there too. My socials are Awakened Energy, but it's just the letters NRG. So awakened and the letter N, the letter R, letter G on Instagram. That's my main account on Instagram. That's where I put all the good stuff up and I'm most present. So you can find me there. Neil will include it all below in the description. Join us. I'll add you to the community. It's a good WhatsApp community. We do exclusive members sessions. We have live sessions every couple of weeks and we're always active in the group and supporting each other. And we've got retreats coming up as well, meditation retreats and lots of cool stuff. And we've got people from all over the world. So if you're feeling called, if you resonate with what I'm saying and you are looking for a bit of help and support and your mind's just busy and you're just looking for a bit of stillness and you're looking for a bit of direction, I can help. So reach out to me and let's get started.

I used to sell cell phones years ago and I'll never forget this guy, probably as long as I live. He came into the store one day and he's like, my phone is not working. It's And I was like, okay, what's going on with it? And he's like, I don't know, man, it's broken. Older guy. And he like shoves the phone kind of in my face. He's like, here, fix it. I was like, okay, let's see what's going on. He had 97 tabs open. 97. Yeah, that's a lot of tabs. Anytime somebody I hear say, you know, our minds are busy, can't get quiet, we can't get still, I think back to that old guy with 97 tabs open. That's a lot, by the way. And how do you focus on 97 things at once? The reality is you can't. You can barely focus on two things at once. You just can't. You just can't. So anyway, I love what you're saying there, Tom. Really appreciate you. Thanks so much for being here today. Really appreciate giving us some time, taking taking you away from your loved ones. Really appreciate you being here today and giving us some moments today. Thanks, man.

No worries. Thank you so much. And great analogy about the tabs open. I used that one as well. Not recently too, so it's quite funny. It's going to resonate with people. It's brilliant. So thank you, Neil, and thank you for the listeners too. Much appreciated.

All right, guys and gals, kids and cameras alike. That is it. That is all. We We jump on our plane and we head back to the United States today. I know we only went to Scotland in our imagination. We're, we're not really there. Well, let's be honest. If we were honest with ourselves, are we really there right now? Like, think about it in your world right now. Is that something that is a still lost art for you that you haven't found yet? Is it still something lost for you? The lost art of being still. You haven't found that yet? It's not in the Lost Found. I looked, I checked before we started today. In fact, if you go to Amazon right now and you type in lost and found, do you know how much stuff is gonna pop up? A lot. If you go to costco.com and you type in lost and found, it might say search not found. Not there either. Now I know for some of us, we get lost in our rules, we get lost in our rituals, we get lost in our things. But U2, I think, said it best. Bono. He said, I still haven't found what I'm looking for. So maybe that's you today. Maybe you're still on the hunt. Maybe you're still on the looking for. Can I just ask you this question? When's the last time you sat in the stillness, in the quiet? When have you done that? Maybe that's your goal this week is to really sit in the quiet. It's hard to do. I'm going to tell you right now, it's hard to do. But if you do, let me know. I'd love to know that you did that. You can let me know, of course, at opspodcast.com. That is home base, mission control. You can also find us on the socials @opspodcastshow on Facebook, Instagram, and X. I am on TikTok as well. I think it's @4opspodcastshow. You can find us on TikTok as well. Don't forget this before we go. So important, very important. Don't ever forget. Remember, when you walk in other people's shoes, you really do get a different perspective on life. Thank you so much for listening. And guess what? Stay tuned till next week when we walk in other people's shoes.