Achieving “Ultimate” Excellence With Jon Palmer

The weekend tournaments or disappearing off to Ireland for a week to go play a big tournament, though those require a little bit more negotiation.

This is 5 to 9, a podcast where we discover the hidden passions and hobbies that engineering, product, and technology leaders obsess over when the workday ends. Hey, John, thanks for coming. Super excited to have you here. For all the folks here, though, um, and, and this kind of beautiful weather we're both in today. Uh, who are you? Who's John Palmer?

Yeah, I'm John Palmer. Uh, I'm here in the Boston area, uh, and, uh, today for work I'm lead developer experience for Fidelity. Uh, before Fidelity I was, uh, leading engineering teams in a bunch of Boston-based startups.

And you've got that really nice Brit accent that we all wish we had.

It's a little softer than it used to be and confuses people sometimes when I tell them I'm originally from the UK. But my siblings and my parents have done a better job of retaining the accent.

Yeah. When you go back to the UK, do they give you crap that you sound American?

Absolutely. And you know, my friends there can't believe these kids that I have who have these, you know, clearly only American accents. They think that's very funny. I'm different. I sound very different than I did when I was hanging out with them in college 20 years ago.

True, true, true. So we're here today actually talking about what I think is a cool sport that you play, but I'm going to judge you because like we're both in our 40s. I can't believe you still do this. And you're like a, like an Ultimate Frisbee, like you still travel, you go to tournaments, you do all this stuff. So, or like I got to play a little bit in college, so I know what it is, but like let's refresh it. Like, what is Ultimate Frisbee, or Ultimate, sorry, I'm actually doing it wrong by calling it Ultimate Frisbee, right? That's kind of like a, it's Ultimate.

Yeah, that's right. One of those words is trademarked and so we don't get to use it that way, at least in the official things. That's why it's got a weird name that nobody gets. Yeah, no, I mean, Ultimate, I started playing it in college. Game that was sort of invented in the '70s in the New England area. And I was fortunate to sort of be part of it growing pretty significantly in the UK. I mean, at its, at its core, that's pretty simple game, right? You 7 folks aside, you need a field with end zones by roughly the size of a football field, a little narrower than that. You can't run with the Frisbee. You got to score by catching it in the end zone. Like, that's the basic mechanics.

I have to say, it's such a good engineer's nerd sport in the sense that it is athletic, it's team-oriented, but there is no contact, right? It's this thing where you can't like touch each other. There's no pushing, none of these things.

Yeah, correct. And its unique aspect is that it's, uh, self-refereed, right? Even at the very highest level, right? So the rules are set up such that if you've got to resolve the dispute, you're gonna send the throw back, you're gonna do it again. And, uh, and it's remarkable that could be played at the highest level, and that mostly isn't isn't a challenge.

I'm going to drop some jargon here to pretend I know what I'm talking about, like words that I should know, right? Like laying out and the hammer, right? Those are two things that people said. That's right.

Laying out. So, you know, throwing your body on the ground to make the catch. Like you probably don't want to be doing it. That's in general, that's a sign that the thrower did the wrong thing and the receiver had to rescue them. You're on defense and you're making a heroic play that you've got to throw your body in the air and then hit the ground to get the interception. That's a that's a better outcome. Yeah, hammers are sort of the first trick throw. I think the folks learn, right? Most folks learn how to throw backhand, throwing it on the forehand. You learn, and then hammer is upside down throw that, you know, can you could throw over a whole bunch of people. So a useful skill.

They turn the Frisbee upside down, right? And then they kind of like throw it up high.

That's right. So you're throwing it upside down rather than right side up. But that means that, you know, you could throw it high and arcing and aerodynamically it drops, right?

It's like, correct.

So, you know, that allows you to really change field position, you know, throw against the wind in different ways, you know, take advantage of where the defense isn't to put it into a space that only your receiver can get to. Yeah.

For folks that don't, it's like American football, except instead of a ball, you're throwing a Frisbee and you can't run and there's no contact.

I think that's roughly right.

It's sort of or more, say, actually more like basketball because it's always moving, right? There's not this concept of downs, right?

Like, that's right, you've sort of basketball, but you're throwing throws to wide receivers covered by quarterbacks kind of a thing.

There you go. Yeah. Okay, so somewhere in between.

Yeah. Higher width of this pitch. Kaplan looks to the end zone and has Palmer there. Finally, Molasses get another hold. That was A little bit of a slog.

Let's have another look at the way they set this up. Beautiful swing around to Ferguson, and such a gainer. And that's something that you don't always see at the end of a swing. The whole point of moving it across the pitch is so the defense gets stuck on the opposite sideline, and you open yourselves up for a massive gainer.

I mean, I called you on this because I was remembering I saw you on Facebook, and you're still going to like traveling tournaments. And I'm gonna call you out, like you're in your 40s, and the rest of us don't do anything besides like cycling, stationary bikes, or like some light running now. Everybody else I know that does these lateral sports have blown out their knees. Like, they, you know, very few people I know still do, you know, travel soccer or travel ultimate, those kind of things. You still do it, right?

Yeah, I think I've been lucky, right? I have plenty of teammates who have blown out those things and who are still playing. Rarely are they, you know, career-ending. I do it because it keeps me fit. I love the community. My wife is wondering the same things. When might I hang up my cleats and stop playing? I think I'd be a lot harder to live with if I didn't have ultimate in my life.

Definitionally, do you play for a club team or travel team? What do you call it?

Yeah, combination. So there are what we call in Boston the Summer Club League, and that plays from sort of May through September once or twice a week. We tend to have a home field where we have the permit on a Thursday night. We travel to other folks on a Tuesday. There's a Boston organization that sort of schedules all that stuff. So that's the summer league, more recreational group of folks that I've been playing with for a decade or more. Still high standard, lots of good players, but it's, but it's casual. And then I at the moment play on a, on a club team in the Grandmasters division and we're competing at US Nationals and Worlds, uh, which we've done both those in the last 2 years. And that's the, you know, that's the high-level stuff that we mix. And many people do exactly that. We're lucky in Boston that there's such a great kind of casual club scene, and then a lot, a lot of folks are playing on those 2 teams at whatever the age group is appropriate to them.

What's your team name? You're, you're a club team?

Yeah, the club team is called Molasses Disaster. Because we're from Boston and we are slow and sticky at the age that we play at.

And that's what Masters means. Masters is 35 plus, 40 plus. What is it? What is it?

So Masters is 33 plus for men and 30 for women. And then Grandmasters is 40 plus and 37. There is a Great Grandmasters level and now there's an emerging Legends level, they're calling it, for 60 plus. And believe it or not, I've Yeah, there are real competitive games played by those folks. And if I'm lucky enough to still be playing at that age, I'll be very happy.

So I wanted to get back into this after not playing for like— and by the way, this is actually— I wanted it— I clearly can't enjoy molasses, but I just want to kind of get in this thing again, like after 20 years. Like, what would I do? Do I just like go to a website? Do I just show up at a field? Like, what's it like?

Yeah, in Boston you go to Boston Ultimate Disc Alliance. So that's BUDA.org as a good nerdy acronym. And I think the entry place for that would be they run, in addition to these club leagues where folks are putting their teams together, they run a bunch of leagues. So you sign up, you tell them roughly what your experience is, and then they're going to put together some teams with some experienced captains and they'll play once or twice a week. And that's, that's a great way to get back into it as a— or get into it as a first place. There's complete beginners on those teams. All that stuff. It's a great way to start.

You call it a hat league. Is that proverbially like they have a hat, a bunch of names in there, they juggle it around?

Yeah, nominally, because you're picking teams from a hat. Like, it's all on a computer these days, but yeah, that's the nomenclature.

It's a Google Docs— they call it Google Sheets— called the hat, right? Yeah.

Okay.

Well, so talking about getting started, like, so what do you need to get started? Like, you know, there's all these gear-driven sports like biking and skiing, all this stuff, but like, What do you need to play ultimate? I just want to get my, you know, our 5 friends together, whatever, 10 friends together. Like, what do I need? What do you do to get started?

Yeah, it's pretty easy. You know, you need a, you know, a field, soccer field, American football field, something. And you're going to take up a chunk of it. You probably need some cones to mark the end zone. So you need 8 cones. You probably need at least 5 people aside and a Frisbee, single one. And it's much better if you're wearing cleats. Other than that, like, there's not a lot of gear. That's one of the things I love about it. It's super easy for kids to get into, right? They can play in sneakers if they want to play a lot. They can buy a pair of cleats so they'll have a better time. But other than that, you show up in a, you know, shorts and t-shirt or whatever the weather needs and you just play.

There's like the standard Frisbee. Is that like the regulated thing you use or now are there like premium versions now where there's like all brands that make like Or is the game defined by you have to get that one frisbee that's like the frisbee band frisbee?

Yeah, there it is regulated in the sense that we play ultimate with a 175-gram disc. There really is only one major manufacturer, just Discraft, and they make— and it's the UltraStar model. They make lots of discs, but they make the UltraStar and that's what the tournaments all play with. And there are, there are some other brands that make similarly shaped things, but they actually fly differently and it's a little bit of an adjustment to switch between them. So if you've thrown, you know, if you've done your 10,000 hours and you pick up another brand, you can tell immediately that it's different. So it tends to be, tends to be a Discraft UltraStar 175.

I'm surprised given all the sports that hasn't elevated into some premium, premium brand like this is the $700 like disc kind of thing, you know, like all of the sports eventually find ways to like get you to pay more.

Yeah, I think there's just such a you know, you need a price point about $10, $15 so that you can— because you don't, you know, you don't use— they get used up, they get dinged up, they get marked. You want to play with something that's reasonably new. And because it sucks, you know, like the mechanics of throwing are different if the brand is different, right? The aerodynamics are different. And so it's an adjustment. So the standardization that you're going to go to every tournament and, you know, they're going to provide discs at tournaments that are all made the same way. Is kind of important in disc golf where you get to go pick your stuff just like you can pick any number of clubs and golf balls and pick the thing that you want. There's a ton of innovation and lots of different brands there, but, but ultimately because you, you know, just need standardization.

Love it. Well, we'll talk about golf in a second here. Okay. So the other thing I was asking when I was, I was ribbing you on us being old folks here, sports like this, but like other part is like, how do you make life work? Right? Because look, you know, I know you've got kids, you've got a partner, you got, you know, big deal job, you've got all kinds of life obligations, family. Like, you said it keeps you sane, really, but how do you like make it all work?

It's a balance, like all these things. Well, my kids really were little, I didn't play very much. I was, uh, doing other things. I was pretending that I was being a triathlete because I could do those kinds of things while kids were napping, right? I had an hour so I could go ride the bike. Come back before everybody woke up. The idea when they were little of going away for all weekend tournaments, let alone a week tournament, was just impractical. So I, I didn't ask. I knew what the answer was going to be, however hard I tried. Now the kids are a little bit older, it's a bit easier. So like one of the dynamics is on a Thursday, kids come with me and, you know, they eat dinner on the sideline. I'm playing, we've got dozens of kids on the sidelines, so they're having a great time. So Thursday nights I'm taking the kids at 5:30 and we don't come back until 8:30, 9:00, 9:30, and my partner gets the night off. And that makes it a little bit more palatable. If on a Tuesday I disappear off and go play, I get that evening to myself. And, and, you know, I'm also— my kids are playing and so I go coach them and we disappear for most of a Sunday.

They're playing, they're playing. That's right, too.

So we disappear for most of a Sunday afternoon. So that gives my partner some time to go do whatever she'd like to do. And then, you know, the, the weekend tournaments or disappearing off to Ireland for a week to go play a big tournament, though those require a little bit more negotiation.

Yeah, yeah. And, and like, okay, so you got like, you know, this is summertime, sounds like, but like, or at least the, the Summer League, you've got like Tuesday playing, you got Thursday things, you got Sunday for the kids too, and you got the travel, you know, we've got turning like, do you like train too, or is the act of playing on Tuesday the training? Like, like, you're not that guy. You should say you're a triathlete before, but like, like, do you do other things that like— to like— or is that the totality of it?

Yeah, that's one of the things I like about, uh, playing in Grandmasters is that we don't have official other things. If you're playing in the, you know, the most competitive stage where there is no age limits, those folks are off and they're playing You know, if you're joining a college team, you're probably playing 5 or 6 times a week, right? If you want to play on a top club team these days, you're— you've got midweek practice, you're playing your Tuesday and Thursday nights for folks, you're doing double weekend practice the whole time. In Masters and Grandmasters, we've all got kids and other commitments, so we mostly trust folks to get themselves in shape and play. So that makes the family life piece easier. And yeah, I do do other things. I like to run and ride the bike and still do those things, try to fit those in. Around work and family.

How do you squeeze those in? I'm trying to figure out how to squeeze them in.

It's hard. I get worse at it every year. Yeah, it's, you know, sometimes just get up early or, or using my commute to work to ride the bike and do some of those kinds of things.

My new thing is I will try to incorporate a run and drop off. So I drop off the kids twice at school and someone put me on this a while ago, which was like don't stress, run like a mile or a day kind of thing. And then someone else put me on a thing which is like, keep your heart zone like low, right? So like try to keep it around like, you know, 130 or whatever, 130, 140 kind of thing. And those two things have actually helped me kind of incorporate it, right? Because I could like, I can just, you know, I don't have to shower beforehand, I get my running clothes on and walk, walk to kids' school, run from there, that one mile, and know what the heart rate is. So I was trying to incorporate, like, you know, make it back home, shower there, you know, little things like that kind of work for me. I don't know.

Yeah, I think that's right. And, and, you know, hey, now that we're spending more time in these hybrid work environments, easier to fit in the workouts when there's less commuting to do. So that, that's where I've tended to find the time more recently is, is that. And then, yeah, try to do something that's a little bit more involved on the weekend if I'm not playing ultimate, you know, can I go to a slightly longer run or a bike ride or that kind of stuff? And now the kids are older, sometimes they join in and that makes it more palatable for family life too, right? Let's just go do a bike ride with them and go do some fun stuff.

Okay, so I heard a couple geographies of you. You said earlier you came up and actually seeing Ultimate in the UK. You said you're at the Boston Rec League, all this stuff. You said with Ireland, the fraternity, like, are there— is there like one set of rules for Ultimate, or is this like a— like, are there quirks in different ways to do— like, if I was, you know, if I was playing in Australia, would it be different? If I was playing in, like, you know, India, is there like a different variation of these things? So they're like, where's the game? The game—

there's mostly two sets of rules that are very similar, getting closer. There's the World Flying Disc Federation rules, so WFDF, um, and that's what basically everybody, everybody plays under. They have rules for other disc related sports. Um, the US has their own set of rules which were inspired by that, adapted, and now they're bringing back in July. So if you're playing, depending on who's organizing the tournament, um, you'll play by their rules. They're very similar. The US ones have some interesting wrinkles. The rules on fouls and contact are a little bit more permissive. Um, so the bigger friction is, uh, US teams going to international tournaments and playing a little harder with a little more, a A little too touchy. Yeah. Yeah. So having to adjust, having to adjust your play style for those tournaments, which is what the US teams will try to do, is the biggest adjustment.

So in the spectrum though, it's still not like contact. Like you're not like, but like what, what is permissiveness? Like, hey, like any contact or like, you know, give me the variation of what that actually means.

Yeah. So the variation really there is like one of the principles, it's the principle of verticality. So like if you're jumping straight up and somebody contacts you, like that's your airspace. That's a common cause of foul.

But it's only got my hand above you and you jump up into my hand.

It's my fault that you fouled me. That's right. Now, most of the time you actually got two folks jumping into the same space and, you know, banging shoulders or, or, or, you know, who gets to the disc first. Like, that's typically not a foul, right? Other common kinds of contact, you know, like you're trying to catch it and somebody hits your arm because they're reaching. Maybe they're laying out, they hit you, and then you don't close that's where the contact is. So it's like bumping heads, bumping shoulders. Maybe you've got two folks laying out and they end up landing on top of each other. And one of the rules is that there's a dangerous play clause, right? So you have to be able to make the play in a reasonable way that's not going to injure the other person, right? So if I'm laying out and there's no way that I'm going to do it other than driving my shoulder through your hip, whether I get the Frisbee first or not, if the contact was inevitable, I'm going to be heavy, then like I fouled you.

And so, you know, you're expected to keep yourself and everybody else safe. Safe. So like in the, in the international one, some of that discretion there is no-no.

That's right. And so, so the, the U.S. difference is that like if the contact happened after the play was made, then it didn't matter if there was contact afterwards. And, and the, and the world rules like, no, you can't say, but I created the interception, so it didn't matter that I hit you. If you were going to hit me anyway, whether before or after the interception, that is still a foul. It is interesting as a spectator. I think the US version makes more sense to people, especially if you're used to watching football or basketball where that kind of stuff is encouraged.

It makes sense, right? Where the US— yeah.

But you go watch the international rules, you're like, wait a minute, I don't understand. Like, the defensive player made an amazing athletic play. That was awesome. They should be on the highlight reels and you're telling me it's a foul. So that's, that's part of the dynamic.

And so when you go to Ireland, was that international rules of play?

Yeah, that was, that was the Club Masters competition. That runs every 4 years.

I heard a piece of jargon I think I picked up on, maybe not, but you said if you close, did you just like, was that a, is that a Johnism, a Britishism, or is that an Ultimate Frisbeeism? I think he was like, you were saying like if you actually got the disc or something like that.

I don't know.

Was that a jargon thing or did I just miss it?

No, I'm not sure.

Okay.

Okay. Sorry. Well, like the principle there, like the way the rules are written is like it's a catch once you've stopped the disc. From spinning, right? So if I'm closing my hand but I haven't stopped the spin of the disc and somebody hits the Frisbee, then that's not a foul. That's— and it's not a catch. So the closing of possession is the key point there. Yes, we're getting nerdy on the rules.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Like it's— I'm learning on this stuff. So my Instagram feed now is for whatever reason making some breath with you. Has been fed with this stuff like disc golf. You said it earlier. Okay, so what is disc golf and why did it take off? And I think I know what's going on, but the discs look different. The whole thing is different, right?

Yeah. So disc golf is really— it's golf but played with a disc rather than hitting a ball. And the hole is actually a basket. They're about a foot and a half wide.

And they have like chains on those things.

And they have chains because that's where— holds the disc in when you've made the shot. And you typically set up these courses. The municipalities love these things as a good, relatively cheap way to get their public spaces used. You don't need to interfere too much with the rest of the use. You typically put them in forests and other things. You clear the fairway so there's a shot that you can reasonably make. And then the— you need all— instead of different clubs in the game of golf, You have different frisbees and different discs, and they, depending on the aerodynamics, they have very different flying properties, right? So you will, you throw it straight and it will, as it slows down, go right or it will go left. And depending on the shape of the hole that you're playing, that's an advantage. Love things that travel further but are much harder to control. So, you know, that's your driver. They'll throw them 200, 300 feet. The holes are measured in feet typically. You'll have different discs that are putters that are very stable that you couldn't throw very far, but you could throw very accurately when you're trying to make the shot. And so there's, there's a lot of variety there. I'm not an expert in this space, but I think if you're a pro, you're going to carry a bag of 20 or more discs and you're going to pick the right one for the shot that you have to make. It's great fun.

Do you play? You said you play, but you don't like do it a lot.

I play a little, and as, as I get older, I play more, which is an uncommon progression. And I had a huge explosion. What was interesting about that sport, huge explosion of the pandemic because you could go on your own and play still, whereas, you know, you need other friends to play Ultimate. You've got to be within 3 meters to play, right? You're breathing on each other when you're marking the— whereas disc golf, you could socially distance and go and do these things. So there was a huge, huge uptick in disc golf. In the pandemic and they coincide with the organization, that team, that organization, and them getting, you know, professional circuit. There are folks that professionally that make a career out of being disc golfers. Nobody's really a self-sustaining Ultimate player. There are professional leagues that are trying to be there, but they're not— it's not a salary that you can live off. But there are people that are living off playing disc golf.

It's great. I was going to say, there's something— there's no real pro pro where you don't do other jobs for Ultimate Frisbee. But there is, like you're saying, you could make a career just like disc golf.

Yeah, it's a pretty small—

what a weird— what a weird version, right?

I think it's pretty busy, right? Like you're playing a tournament every week. You're probably living out of your van, driving around. It's not a glamorous, like, flying between things, but there are folks that are doing that and great, you know, some real sponsorship deals. I think there are sort of, you know, half million, million dollar sponsorship deals from the disc manufacturers for the very top players. I think it's a thin slice. I'm not an expert on it, but like there are some folks doing that.

Yeah, this is my theory earlier on asking for it. There's premium things of like Ultimate Frisbee you actually play with and I think probably goes hand in hand because disc golf, you can get premium variations. You have to buy all this stuff, which just creates the market. People will buy it unless you can sponsor people. Like it's that.

That's right.

There's a, there's a business there where it's hard to build a business.

Well, where Ultimate, the businesses are around shirts, uniforms. There's a few folks doing cleats, but you know, because, because there is a variety there, right? And you know, we're probably printing and making new shirts for every season and all that kind of stuff because different people are playing on different teams. But it's less around the, around the disc.

You said disc golf really kind of popped up really, or really picked up during pandemic. But like, is there judgment? Like, are you in the Ultimate Disc Golf side being like, wow, the golf sides for old folks, or is it like, or is it now just like the two things go in concert and like both people do both things, or like, is there—

I think they're just in very concert. You know, one's an individual sport, the other's a team sport. Some people do both, but they don't, they don't compete. And while they're both throwing a disc, the techniques and skills are very different too, right? You have to be athletic to play disc golf, but it's not the same fitness that you would have to go play a weekend tournament, right? So it's a different kind of stuff.

It's not timed, right? You're not like running between the, like the shots, right? No, it's like golf, right?

Like, okay, that's right.

So you actually don't have to be like necessarily cardiovascular fit to play it.

That's right.

But it could be, but you don't have to be.

That's right.

Okay. This for me, 'cause we're here, like, are there courses here where people play this?

There's a surprising number of courses. Yeah. And, and in all kinds of weird and wonderful places, there's, there's some great apps and websites that list them out. Many are free.

You know, I go out and play, but it requires more to get started though, right? I have to buy the stack of discs.

Yes, but you could probably buy 2 and get away with those things on, you know, the equivalent of short— there are 9-hole, like, par-3 disc golf courses, just like a pitch and putt.

Yeah.

And so with a putter and another disc, you could be just fine, right? And And you know, you're not going to go pick up a disc driver and throw it 300 feet, however, like on your first go. They're really hard to throw. An ultimate disc is much easier to throw than a disc golf disc.

Oh, interesting.

They're harder.

Okay.

They're— because they're much more aerodynamic. They have way more lift.

It sounds like both of these sports are like kind of easy and accessible to get started, but hard to be like great at, hard to master. Yeah.

Absolutely right. I think like many of these things, you know, you need your 10,000 hours, so to speak. I remember in college, just, you know, I was playing 2 or 3 times a week, but in between class or whatever, like, I just go out with a buddy, we would just throw, right? How do I, how do I get the right arc on that throw? How, you know, I must have just thrown thousands of times most days just working on that stuff so that when you're in a game, you know, you could do it instinctively and, and yeah, so you can get out there, you could run around, you could play, you could— the tactics are simple, but to get really good, you've just, you've got to put in your time.

How many hours have you put in? You got 8,000 now? Are we talking here?

Oh, I hate to think it's crazy. So there's, there's a bunch of pretty nerdy folks in the Ultimate community in general. And one of my teammates, when I try to do the analysis, like how many times have I thrown a frisbee kind of a thing, right? You're like, okay, if warming up for every game, you're going to make 150 throws and you do that, you know, 7 times a weekend and you've been playing this sport for 20 years and you've got practice which has way more throws than games, like the numbers are— I don't even know what they are.

10,000 is easy.

That is easily 10,000. It's probably in the hundreds of thousands, if not like a million frisbee throws in your career kind of a thing. It's a, it's a big number.

Got it. Okay, so back to Ultimate here. Like, it's a sport you clearly put in your life. Like, which part of it do you enjoy the most? Why does it work for you? Not like you asked earlier, how does it work? But like, what makes it— like, what makes you tick?

I think it's, it's a simple game that takes a little while to master. That's fun. It's really interesting that, you know, everybody has to throw, everybody has to catch, everybody has to play offense, everybody has to play defense. And so you need this overall skill set and you specialize in different parts of that, but everybody's got to be able to do it. So it really is a sport that requires a team to do well, right? So what I enjoy most, and especially the last couple of years because we've been fortunate to be pretty successful, is the team, the community, the sense of achievement when you play well because you needed everybody. It's— you can have star players, but, you know, they can't score every point, they can't make every throw. So you really have to play well. I love that it works really well as a mixed sport because that also changes the dynamic of the team. That's what I prefer to play. I think I just come back to it's the community, it's the team. You know, I could have a really bad day at work and not really want to go to Ultimate and play that game at 6:30. But by the end of that game, like, I've reset. I haven't thought about work. I could just be me and play Frisbee for a couple of hours and my teammates will make sure that I have a better time than I did. And so yeah, that community and teamwork that brings you together just helps me reset my brain every time I play. And that's what makes me love it.

Okay. So you use the word strategy broadly. And so in the game of Ultimate, talk to me about position strategy. I kind of understand 7-on-7, you're on a field, but it sounds like not everybody does everything, or maybe they do. Like, but like, how do you even talk about strategy generally? And like, are there, are there defenders, offenders? Like, how does it, how does it work?

Yeah. So offensively, it's, you know, all the strategies are really about the kinds of throws that you want, where the space is on the field. And so there are broadly speaking two strategies, one where you line up the receivers in a line, which we would call a stack down the field. And that means that there's space either side. Right? And so you're going to throw to the side of that stack. People are going to make their cuts into those spaces. You're probably—

so everyone's kind of like in one line. I look down the field towards the end zone, everyone's in one line, and then when I get ready to throw, they break. They got to go.

Yeah, they're going to make fakes and then they're going to hit one of those open spaces. And you're probably in that tactic. You're, you're looking to throw, you know, several 10 to 15 yard passes to advance the disc down the field and score. The other alternative is that actually you put 3 folks who we call handlers along the back where the frisbee is, but the other 4 players are downfield, probably 20 yards away. And that game is much more about making 1 or 2 throws and then throwing a big throw, 2/3 or half the length of the field, right? So the spaces are then right in front of the handlers or way deep. And so it's a different variety of throws. A really athletic team with tall receivers will like playing that horizontal offense. A team that's more squirrely with lots of great throws, because you could, you know, put the disc into different positions, will play more, uh, vertical stack. Vertical stack's easier to teach because you don't need such big throws to make it work. Um, vertical stack will work better if the conditions are windy or rainy because the big throws are much riskier, uh, if, if the wind could get underneath it. So sometimes it'll depend on, you know, the kind of defense that the the defense is playing. Broadly, as a strategy for the defense, you're, you're going to go play person on person where you're guarding against a player and you're going to pick which side of the field you're forcing to. So somebody's marking the thrower who has the disc. Most of the time you're going to pick a side of the field to take away because you're physically standing there making those throws hard and force the throws to go to the other side. And then, and then defenses, especially windy conditions, you could play various forms of zones where you're guarding an area and you're trying to force the team to make difficult throws into the wind or throw hammers over the top that, that they misread where the defense and the offense is. So depending on weather conditions and style, your fitness, what the other team is good in, you're going to—

the height.

Exactly right. If you're playing zone, you're going to go put a 6-foot-something guy probably at the back so that they can, you know, play center field, so to speak, and catch any errant throws. You're going to put, you know, players who are basically chasing the frisbee as it moves in small spaces. You're going to put your fast players who are good at that stuff on the front.

How old is Ultimate Frisbee? Or how old is Ultimate?

Ultimate, I invented in the late '60s, early '70s, I think at Holly High School, somewhere in— I forget where that is.

Okay, so like a 50, 60-year-old sport and there's only 2 strategies people play.

Pretty much.

I'm being simplistic here. Like, you would think there may have been more plays invented in this stuff.

Yeah, there's diverging trend, uh, which is interesting in the last few years, which folks are calling hex, where instead of those stack strategies, you're actually spreading the players out more based on a triangle offense from basketball, where you're actually just like, you're just moving the disc as quickly as possible. You don't care whether you're going backwards or forwards, you're just trying to take advantage of mismatches and get the defense out of position. And some teams, and it's more popular in other countries than than others are. There's a little bit of evolution, but it's, it's, it's not mainstream yet. Hex.

I knew something new. I'm going to drop that as my knowledge. I'm going to learn how to hack. All right. Well, hey, John, this is like been awesome. So thank you for sharing all of these things and being here. Like us regular folk, like, how do I get into this? Like, are there, are there like, you know, hit the YouTube, books, podcasts, like They're live streamed ultimately. How do I get into this?

Yeah, that's, that's right. There's a few books that would be written recently. I mean, I'd encourage folks to go and find their local leagues. Most cities have something going on. USA Ultimate is the governing body in the US and they can provide— they have links on their site to various, you know, member organizations. There's normally a pickup game or a hat league or something going on in most cities in the US. Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff being streamed. The professional leagues are doing a really nice job with their media. Some of their games are on ESPN and other things like that. Every now and then they make top 10 plays. Some of the tournaments I've played in, in Ireland, the semifinal and final were streamed. You can go watch it on Ultimate if you want to watch a bunch. Oh, I'll find it. You can watch a bunch of 40-year-olds running around there. And yeah, so there's quite a lot of material on YouTube. There's lots of hired tutors and getting into it, but your best bet is just to go find a local crew there. The community is super welcoming of new players of any age, and they'll take you aside, teach you some throws, the details of basic strategy, and then go out and play for a couple hours and see how you like it. Love it.

Love it.

All right.

Andrew Lau here. I hope you enjoy this episode of Five to Nine. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on our next episode. Who knows what hidden talents or hobbies we'll discover on the next episode of Five to Nine.