But you don't look like an engineer.

Tom ended up hearing the end of our conversation and said, you're not an engineer. I'm an engineer. You're just a script kitty.

Oh no. Oh no. I just want to say I haven't listened to the rest of the story, but whatever she decides to respond is— Yeah. I'm not— I don't even have to listen to the rest of it. You have a full okay to say whatever you want. I give it a green light.

You're listening to Off the VPN, the show where two work besties get real about working in tech. Jasmine, what's up?

Alison, hey, how's it going? Listen, I'm great. We got our robes on. We're chilling today.

Literally have never been more comfy in my life at work. Than this present moment.

Absolutely. This is like the peak of remote work. It's a Friday. We're getting stuff done. We got our robes on. I'm talking to my work bestie. We're spilling tea. Like, what could be better?

What could be better? Also, we have big news this week.

We do. Amazing news. You wanna share it?

I do.

Ah!

So for people who don't know, Jasmine and I have of course been working together for over 5 years now. But throughout this time, sometimes we've been on different teams, sometimes we've been on diff— in different departments. But as of this week, I have seen Jasmine in like, what, 5 different meetings? Because we are officially working together and we're gonna be doing some big projects, hands-on coding together, which has— it's, it's truly been a minute since we've done that.

It's been a long time. Time, like since we've been like working on the same team, doing stuff. And not only that, but now like working more like side by side.

Yeah.

Right. Like I feel like we always had like independent teams we're running. This is the first time we're doing like true, like sit down nitty gritty project work. Yeah. I could not even explain to you. I was coming in every day just like so excited. Like I just can't wait to like work with you in that capacity.

Um, same. Well, so for today's episode, obviously we are in our robes and we're very comfy, but this is really a bigger statement, our robes here. This is about this idea that engineers have to look a certain way or dress a certain way. And so I'm wondering, Jasmine, how many times have you encountered a person or an individual who has doubted that you work in tech, that you're a software engineer, that you have engineering skills and coding capabilities. It's, I imagine, pretty common because I've experienced this too.

I, I don't even know if I could pick, but I will say if I had a nickel for every time someone says you don't look like an engineer, I wouldn't be rich, but I would definitely, you could hear the change swishing around everywhere I go because I have a lot of nickels. Yeah, no, I mean, the amount of times, like, bringing it up used to make me uncomfortable, like, when I was younger, I think, because someone— they— people make a big deal out of it. Oh, you're an engineer? What? Da da da da da da. Like, in surprise. Or walking in a room and people think I'm non-technical. They make, like, a lot of assumptions that— those things still persist. Yeah, I just think, like, people will just make a lot of assumptions about you or you are. The amount of— I've had people think I do like the weirdest thing. Some— somebody thought I worked in bottle service recently, actually, was their assumption. And I was like, no. I was like, oh, I'm in engineering. They're like, oh, I thought you might have been like a bottle service girl or something. And I was like— this is recent, this is like maybe this past month. Yeah, crazy. I was like, please stop talking to me. Crazy. So it's like— and no, no smoke to people who do bottle service. Like, it's not that, it's just like How did— that was like the judgment that someone would like immediately make out for me. So people told me not even to pursue this, that career. So they said like I couldn't do it, which, you know, I'm actually want to dedicate this episode.

Allison, please, by all means.

We want to dedicate this episode to all the, all the people who told us we couldn't be engineers.

Really, to all of our haters who have doubted us along the way. Oh man, that's crazy.

What about you? I want to know. I'm sure you, you have some crazy stories.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think even before becoming a software engineer, for me it was, there was a lot of doubt that I was, uh, studying math in college. Like, you, you study what? Like, and, and then that was like half of the people. Then the other half of the people were like, wow. Oh my God, you must be— and it's like, you know, at some point hard to take that as a compliment because it's almost offensive. Like, wow, you really thought that just by looking at me I couldn't do that? You know? And so you have this like, just like completely over-the-top reaction that just makes me actually feel worse about myself. So yeah, it's like the two camps of people. Last summer I had a hilarious interaction with someone at like a barbecue. So it wasn't somebody I knew, but there was this guy there who, I don't know, just was talking to a table about how he invests in Silicon Valley tech startups and knows a lot about tech or whatever. And the other people at the table were like, oh, actually I'm a doctor. I work in this other field. And I was like, I work in tech. This guy looked me right in the eye, looked elsewhere and went, yeah. So anyways, back to, yeah. And I was like, immediately like, okay, I'm out of here and just left. I was like, this is not the table for me. Looked me dead in the eye and just chose to ignore that I am the person at that table that probably knows the most about what he actually wanted to talk about and everybody else didn't. But that's okay. That's fine. Yeah. I mean, it happens all the time. This idea that engineers have to look a certain way for it to be believable. But really, engineers come in all shapes and sizes. And, uh, facts, matter of fact.

So on this topic, right, I have a story for you that's very much I think you can resonate with.

Okay.

Are you ready?

I'm ready.

All right, let's go. Am I the asshole for telling a guy what I do for work and letting him pay for my drinks during the whole evening? My friend Grace invited me to a board game bar to play and have drinks with her, her boyfriend, and one of her friends, Nick. We went to get drinks in pairs, Grace going with her boyfriend. Meanwhile, Nick and I stayed at the table and vice versa. So Nick and I had plenty of time to talk with just the two of us. Nick started the night by telling about his recent career change. He decided to quit his previous job, go to a coding bootcamp, and he got a job as a developer one or two months ago.

Sick.

Sick. Good for him. He was very proud of himself and his new salary and told me this multiple times. All right, guys excited. All right, I get it. He never asked me what I do for work but talked about his job quite a lot, occasionally saying, sorry, you don't understand that, haha. During the entire evening, I never told him I had been working as a software engineer for the past 4 years because he never asked, and honestly, I found it a bit entertaining.

Oh, okay.

So she's just sitting here like, uh-huh, yeah, yep, all right, that sounds great, good for you. When it came to the drinks, he invited me to every single one. Don't worry about it, it's not a problem with my developer salary. I told him multiple times he doesn't have to pay for me, but he insisted. I don't, I don't know how this is going. Okay, at the end of the night when we were saying our goodbyes, he took out his phone to send me a friend request on Facebook. My job is listed in my profile, so that was when he realized that I'm a software engineer. Whoop! He asked me if it's true that I'm a software engineer, and I answered yes. He asked me why I haven't told him. I let him believe I was a cashier like Gracie used to be. And why did I let him pay for everything when I probably earn more than him? I told him that he never once asked, and it was his fault he assumed. He could have simply asked me about my job and he only wanted to brag about his, but if he wants me to, I can pay him back for the drinks. He was angry and said I made a fool of him. I think he did that, but not me. But now Grace and her boyfriend are on his side too, saying that I would have— it wouldn't have cost me anything to tell him early in the evening, and I only kept it for myself for my own entertainment. Well, I did find it entertaining, but I don't really feel like I did anything wrong. Am I the asshole?

Ooh, this is so good. This is so good. Oh my gosh. I think that when you first read the story to me, I was going like, this person is the asshole. But now the second time I'm like, nah.

No, I didn't think they were the asshole at all.

I never did.

I think this shit's hilarious.

Okay. You know what really sticks out to me in this whole story? The thing that changes everything for me.

The food?

Oh, not the food.

But what were they eating?

I love food. I'm not going to pretend like I don't. Okay. I want to know.

I would never ask you to be anything different.

When I envision these stories, I'm like, were there mozzarella sticks on the table or were there jalapeño peppers? Like, I just need to know. But the thing that really changes everything for me is this line where he apparently says to the author, sorry, you wouldn't understand that about software engineering and about tech because everything else, even the bragging about the salary, like you could argue is just residual excitement from changing careers, right? Like that is super valid to be like, whoa, I had like a 2x increase in my salary by doing this coding bootcamp and now I have like more financial security, like, I'm always going to be happy for someone who experiences that, you know. I don't want to assume that that's like ill-natured on that person just because they're really happy with what they're making now. But the assumption, "Sorry, you wouldn't understand that," and laughing it off really is what gets me, really is what puts me immediately on the author's side here. If someone said that to me, And before I could even respond and be like, hey, I also am a software engineer, I've been doing this for 4 years, blah, blah, blah. I'd be like, oh really?

Okay. Yeah, you're right. I don't, why don't you go buy me some more drinks?

This is my drink order.

Like no facts. The pettiness like immediately comes out. Like I feel like it goes from like, like over, you imagine like you're sitting here, you're talking to the guy, right? And then he's like, oh, I got this job. And you're like, okay. And you're listening intently. You're like, oh, that's cool. Da da da. And it just keeps going, going, doesn't take a moment to ask about you, doesn't like any— they're bringing up topics. You're like, you've just met this person and then they make an assumption like that. At that point, it's like they're just losing points. Like if they started from a neutral point, they're just going negative and negative. At that point, I'm gonna be like, okay, all right, I see, I see where we're at. I don't know if you've ever had moments like that where you met somebody and then you just like Immediately you're like, oh, okay, I see what this is. I'm not gonna like engage with it. But do you think she's wrong to like have— so agreed, I feel like the not saying anything part, I would have been down with that too. I love that. I love that. I think it's actually hilarious. And especially like what we were saying before, I imagine this person, like, this is happening to them a lot. It's, it's kind of a trigger, right? Like when someone is like acting like that towards you, or just being like a woman in general, I think, in tech or just in, in the world in general, like people, you know what I mean? So like, this, this wasn't like a great conversation to begin with. But do you think it was okay for her to stay and take the drinks?

I think this is my personal opinion, that if she had planned to like, kind of let him in on it at the end of the night, in an intentional way and offered to pay for the drinks herself, then it makes it a little better. Because at the end of the day, it's hard to read into why he kept buying these drinks. Is it because he was like, oh, I got it like that?

You know, I mean, yeah, he said like, well, my developer salary, I'm just gonna start like, I'm just gonna start making it rain. I'm like, I don't know what job this this one got, like, right out the gate, their first developer job. It must be some big money because, like, yeah, I don't, I don't know.

I, we're buying rounds of drinks for people, but like, yeah, I mean, who knows. But yeah, I do wonder if her plan was to ever tell him because I think it is kind of, it is dishonest a little bit if that's why he's going around.

It's for sure dishonest. This whole thing's dishonest. Is it funny and do I respect it? Absolutely.

Are we entertained? Thoroughly. But, but yeah, I don't— it's—

you think she felt like too deep by this point? Like, it's like you let it go and then you think that the topic is gonna change, but then next thing you know, he's like, oh no, no, I got your drink because I'm a developer and you're not. I got you because you're, you're a grocery store clerk. Yeah, like what? Don't worry about it. At that point, she's already in too deep. Like, what do you, what do you do? Do you like fess up? Actually, haha, actually, like, I'm actually your secret boss. No, I'm just kidding. But like, on your team at that point, stand up last week. Yeah, at that point. Yeah, exactly. I was actually in your hire. I, you don't remember, but I interviewed you.

Um, regretting letting you through to the next round.

Honestly, facts, facts. I should have just thumbs down. But, um, like, at that point she's in so deep, she probably just was like, okay.

Yeah.

Do you, do you think that she should pay her back? She should pay the drinks back?

Listen, this person can do whatever they want. I would, I would personally.

You would pay it back? If you pay it back, I would attach my, like, my, uh, resume to the Venmo, like, payment. It'd be in the Venmo notes with my full resume.

Yeah, just so you know, this is exactly what I've been doing for the past 4 years.

10+ years of experience. Like, Here's all the languages I know.

Yeah. Matter of fact, why don't we pull out LeetCode at the bar right now? Let's have a competition. Like, I don't know.

Yeah. Oh my God. Let's pop some balloons.

Throwback. Yeah. I, so part of me wondered, actually, the author probably would've written this if, if it were the case, but when she pulled out that Facebook, when they pulled out to swap their phones to swap Facebook. If she knew that her profile said software engineer, and if she was wondering like, is he going to catch it or not? She didn't mention that. But I do wonder if she—

we don't know how many drinks they were in by this point, you know.

True, true.

She probably forgot.

What I think is interesting is that the friends that they went to this bar with are siding with this guy. And what I find interesting about it is because it almost just misses the actual, like, I think, deep important part of this story, which is what you said earlier. Like, it's— it can legitimately be like really tough to hear somebody say that to you. Sorry, you wouldn't understand this. Not ask you a single question about yourself or your expertise or what you might know about the topic that the person's bringing up constantly. That sucks. That really hurts. And I think that this, like, you know, his side or her side, the friends taking his side automatically is like, you're missing some of the point. Like, this guy made assumptions and didn't ask me a single thing all night. Like, we can't, we can't miss that detail.

100%. And that's why I don't think she should pay him back and maybe not be friends with these people either.

Just, just leave it. Just leave them all behind, you know, go find a new friend group. Yeah.

Is it a hack to like find some— find these people who make assumptions about you? Maybe I should just be like leveraging this. Maybe I could be getting free drinks all the time. Like I never like thought about this. Like maybe this is like how I like, you know, deal with this going forward. I'm just not going to say a word and just go, mm-hmm. And get my bag.

The thing is, is I like to believe that most people would actually ask you questions and not be like this guy who didn't ask a single question to this person.

I hope they learned a lesson.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, my benefit of the doubt side is like, oh, this is, you know, this person was having social anxiety. With being like left alone at a table with someone that they don't know and they didn't really know how to carry a conversation. And the easiest thing to do is to talk about yourself. That's my benefit of the doubt take. But I do like to think that most people, uh, I don't know, maybe that's wishful thinking, but most people would be like, what do you do?

What do you do?

Yeah.

I just second have that self-awareness to go, oh, I've been talking about myself a lot. Maybe I should ask. Like, I think if she didn't say anything after asking, she'd be in the fault. But it's like, I get it. Like, I've been that girl, like, in the room. Or I've been in the room where this is— like, I've had— I didn't get free drinks out of it, but I've been in that room where it's like someone's telling me all about their jobs. Like, I'd be at like a mixer or something, and they're like, oh yeah, this and this and this. And like, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, I'm an engineering manager. And they're like— their face completely changes. The topic completely changes. Like, their bodies turn to me more than they were before. Like that, you know, like when someone's talking to you, like you could be next to them, but they're just like, they're just literally just like looking like this. But they're like, the energy shifts. Like, the amount of times, like, it's like a— it's so normal now for me to experience that. Like, and, and I try to gravitate towards certain spaces so that I don't experience those things, but It's very true. Like, it's very often like people will not make that judgment about you, or they just immediately are like, it's just ingrained. It just happens. Interviews, everything. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, you walk into a room, they make an assumption about who you are, and it's just really sad.

That's what it is at the end of the day. It's really sad. Like, open, open your mind, people. Like, there's don't, don't make assumptions. One thing I want to shout out here is that he assumed that she was a cashier.

Yeah.

Because the friend that brought them together was a cashier. And I just want to shout out the fact that both you and I, like, one of our first jobs independently was being a cashier working at a grocery store.

Facts.

I learned so much from that job. About like customer service and just like time management. It's crazy. I love that.

I don't think I learned anything about time management from being a cashier. Okay.

Well, I also did shop from home in addition to being a cashier and shop from home. You have like orders coming in. You got, you got to learn time management. Yeah.

But I just talked to people was like. That's, that's, that's pretty much it.

I still dream about doing that job sometimes.

One of the baggers went up to me and I was bagging the groceries. She's like, you can go. I'm like, no, I can, I can do it. I want to, I want to do it. Yeah. Like, it's just so simpler. Like, I haven't done that in so long. Like, I love, I used to love bagging groceries. It was like Tetris.

Same. Yes, it is. It's like you put the heavy stuff on the bottom. There's like all these rules. Don't mix like meat with fish.

Yeah. See, that's the engineering brain, I think, coming out. Like, early on we're just like, Like I would like literally look at all the groceries ahead and I'd be like, okay, let me make a plan. How are we gonna like, like I'd literally operate. Yeah, no, I used to love that.

Um, anyway, amazing.

So, so verdict, verdict.

We're not here to talk about groceries. We're here to decide if the author here is an asshole.

No, no, I'm gonna say no too.

Tough one because she was dishonest, but asshole too far.

I really don't blame her. I really like, what was she supposed to do? Hey, hey, hey, listen to me. I'm a software engineer too. Like, nah, sis, like, we ain't doing that. Like, not in this year of 2024. Nah, nope. You're offering. You made these assumptions. Like, it's literally— I would say do it again. I was wrong and I'd do it again.

Oh, amazing. All right, well, I have a different story for you.

Okay.

Title is, am I the asshole for calling myself an engineer? Yes. I, 22, female, am graduating from college in August, and my major is cybersecurity with a concentration in software development. Fire. In order to graduate, I needed an internship. The company I'm interning with is great, and they plan on hiring me permanently once I graduate. Last weekend, my family got together to celebrate my grandma's birthday. My cousin May, 26, female, brought her boyfriend Tom, 49, male, with her. I met him a couple times, but he always made me uncomfortable, so I try to avoid him. I was talking to May about the internship and how they want to bring me on as soon as I graduate. She asked what my new title would be, and I told her that my job title would go from software engineer intern to software engineer junior associate. Tom ended up hearing the end of our conversation and said, you're not an engineer. I'm an engineer. You're just a script kitty.

Oh no. Oh no. I just want to say, I haven't listened to the rest of the story, but whatever she decides to respond is okay. Yeah, you have full— I'm not— I don't even have to listen to the rest of it. You have a full okay to say whatever you want. I, I give it a green light. Uh, we don't need to listen. Verdict is not the asshole. Like, we don't even need to end that. We're done. We're done.

Okay, excuse me.

Oh, what?

A script kitty? Am I—

that is the most demeaning thing I have— I would— I don't even know what— Allison, you need to hold me back. Like, I couldn't— where's Grandma? Where's Grandma? So, so in front of Grandma? In front of Grandma? Is crazy.

Yeah, no, no, Graham's birthday party is ruined at this point.

Oh, okay. Oh my God, no, I— a rip Allison. Allison. Yes.

Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry, I can't—

like, what?

Okay, can I finish?

I'm just thinking of like my entire body. I think I'd go black. I think I would literally like go— like, I think I would see black. Like, I would black out. Like, I don't— I can't even imagine like what I would say. All right, please, please continue it.

Sorry.

Okay, what do you think?

What do you think they're eating?

No, just kidding. Um, but I am— here's the—

here's the picture.

What it is, it's going straight in their face. That's it. I don't know what I'm eating, but it's going straight in their face. That's crazy. Okay, I'm sorry, I needed a— wow. All right, Tom, I already have my verdict though.

Everyone off.

Don't care what she did, but She's okay with me.

Yeah, she gets a pass no matter what. Okay, here's the thing though. Tom is a mechanical engineer.

Oh, still, still, still, still, still. That was—

you're like, oh, should I take that back?

Should I take all that back? No, no, that was still like not okay to say. It doesn't— I get like, I— all right, keep going, keep going. Yeah, so this is like just the narrative a little, but in disciplines Yes.

Okay.

I feel like disrespectful, like, in so many ways. For sure.

For sure. Do not approach me at Grandma's birthday party telling me I'm not an engineer. Like, please, Tom, please back up.

My grandma will throw down too. Like, she'll back me up.

Tom, get out of here. You're uninvited. Okay, so Tom is a mechanical engineer. I ended up telling Tom my job title would in fact have the word engineer in it and currently does because she's an intern, software engineer intern. Besides, I don't really care what you think anyway. Correct response to Tom. Well, Tom ended up getting upset about that, stormed off with May, which killed the mood of the party. Tom already killed the mood of the party. I told my mom what happened and she said, none of us like Tom. Oh, ooh, none of us like Tom, but you should have just kept quiet since it was your grandmother's birthday. Now I kind of feel like the asshole because if I hadn't said anything and just ignored him, then the party wouldn't have ended early. Tom did this.

I'm sorry, it's on site with Tom now. It's on site with Tom. He started the beef. You just gotta finish it. I feel like she could have went way further. She would have went— she could have went way further.

Yeah, that was so respectful. Like, my job title will have engineer in it, and besides, I don't care what you think anyway, Tom. Yeah, Script Kitty.

I honestly feel like she, she, she was a lot nicer than I probably would have been. So I feel like she handled that very excellently because like, like she really stood above that in a really awesome way, to be honest, because I don't know if I would have responded that way. Totally. Especially at my family's party. Are you kidding me? I have my whole family. I'm going to be like, you know what he said to me?

Yeah. Like, gather all the aunts and uncles, cousins. Let everybody know. Like, did you hear— did you hear what Tom just said?

Like, you know what Tom just said to me? They're going to be like, what? Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just still, like, so fixated on that.

And, like, back to your comment earlier, you know what makes me so sad, so freaking sad about this story? She titled the post, "Am I the asshole for calling myself an engineer?" in quotes. So it's like this whole experience made her rethink, oh, am I?

Like, that's so sad. I have no words. Like, but this, this I think just really fully encapsulates the kind of like elitism and gatekeeping that exists just in STEM, I think, in general, right? Like, and maybe there's like a Listen, like maybe there's like some teasing, like mechanical, electrical engineering, whatever, versus computer science. Like maybe there's no, like if you're doing software engineering, maybe because there's no physical component, maybe that's like the, like you guys aren't real engineers or something, whatever. But it's like, that's what the whole point of having the adjectives attached to engineer is for, is to describe the type of engineering you're doing, right? Like you're solving problems, you're, trying things, you're testing something, you're trying another thing, you're seeing if it works. Like it's the same concepts, right? Behind how your mindset and how you go into your day-to-day. The type of thing is different, right? Like obviously a difference between me and someone who's building a rocket ship, but people on the rocket ship, they're software engineers are building the software for rocket ships. You know what I mean? But like, why do you need to call that out? Like what is the, what are you gaining from this? Like, there's probably— I know there's like, with engineering, like a lot of people have an attachment. And I've definitely been— I can call myself for this too, is like having an attachment to your identity, like being an engineer, being like a part of your identity. And I think that like these defensive methods is like just comes from such a deep place of insecurity that you need to like take others down. Even if you thought like, oh, I do more complex stuff, like, why would you need to say that?

We're not one-upping each other at Grandma's birthday. Like, it's just— there's no place for it. Like, it's unnecessary.

And it— I just think that that just shows this guy Tom, like, I don't know what deep issues this guy got that needs— feels like they need to like step on a— literally an intern and tell them like they're not really like anything. Like, what, what are you gonna get out of that? And the fact that she said, I don't care what you think anyway, and took that as an offense and like storms off and all upset—

like, there's—

this is a Tom thing. Like, where, like, where do you think that comes from? Because it's like, this is not— I wish I could tell you this is like surprising and I've never seen people act like this. I wish I could tell you this was different, but I've seen this. I've seen this.

My opinion, I think you're spot on. It comes from like an internal insecurity. There's an edit to this post that the author added that says, we do not live in the US. Tom doesn't have any licenses and doesn't have any degree. He started as machine maintenance and moved up. That's not me diminishing his achievements. I think he worked hard to get where he is. But I guess a lot of people kept bringing this up in the, in the posts, like about degrees and, and all that stuff. And so maybe there is something to that of like, here's this 22-year-old who is graduating from college with a major in cybersecurity and a concentration in software development. Like, that's, that's awesome. And like, maybe Tom is feeling some type of way about his own career trajectory that is coming out in this way that is completely unacceptable, but is targeted at this, you know, individual who's like doing an awesome job and like high— clearly high achieving if this company wants to hire her permanently after she graduates, right? So I mean, that's my read too, is that it's just coming from this place of like he's feeling bad about something that has nothing to do with her and it's all internal to him.

Do you, do you also think, like, going back to like the identity thing, right, And I'm thinking about something you said earlier about when someone's like, oh my gosh, you're a software engineer. Like, you must be so smart. Like that, like thing. I feel like there's like this feeling like, oh, you're special because you're an engineer. And by seeing other people become engineers, it's like, I wonder if people feel like they're not as special anymore, or if they're feeling like some attack on their identity because of this and feeling like there needs to be some other Right? Like, I think this is even true with like, I don't know, even people who are coming in, like there's so many more diverse entry points now into engineering or software engineering specifically with like bootcamps versus people going through and getting a degree. There's like, but there's always some sense like of, and we talk about this a lot, I know it's like of elitism and feeling like there needs to be an other and there's like a better than you or whatever. And it's like, We're all here to solve problems. I've worked side by side with people who've been at Ivy League schools and we're in the same place. What are we tripping about at the same time? You know what I mean? And I think that some people, it's like, whatever. They don't think about it. It doesn't even come up. And then there's others like that, like you said, that deep insecurity, that feeling like, oh, I'm not special anymore because this other person's doing this or because I need to find some way that I'm better than them. And it's just that piece, unfortunately, I think is so like present in our culture. It is the thing that I think burns women out, burns minorities out of tech industry because especially if you're surrounded by that, it is exhausting cuz you could never do enough. No matter how many accolades, no matter how many things you accomplish, no matter what you do. It's the same story and it requires you to have such a tough skin and a tough— and it is so unfortunate. It is so, so, so, so unfortunate. This I think captures it like in some ways, and we talk about this a lot, but this is the gross part that I don't think people talk enough about in tech.

No, that's— that is such a good point. That there's this shift potentially of like, oh, I mean, all these other people can do it. And then like trying to really compare. I've also heard of things like, oh, like you code in Python, like that's so like high level. Like I was coding in C, like, right? All of these comparisons that are trying to devalue people who are newer to the industry coming in at a different entry point to what you just said, like. Of course, there are still people today who don't have any degrees who are phenomenal programmers and software engineers, but it's just that the type of entry point has widened, I think. And there probably are some people who feel like that is some type of attack on, on them, even though of course it's not. But they did it one way. And so like all of these other people aren't as valid. For some reason. And I bet that spans industries too. I don't want to get into this too much because I could talk about this forever, but the fact that her mom told her that she should have just kept quiet since it was her grandmother's birthday breaks my heart. All of this is just sad. Like, you should have thrown food in Tom's face and then taken Grandma out to a restaurant for a nice private celebration.

I want to specifically shout out my mom because my mom would have been like, why didn't you say anything to me? I would have been on his— like, she would have went— she would have been behind me. Matter of fact, my grandmother too. She'd be like, excuse me, what did you say to my granddaughter? And they wouldn't even know the context. Like, what do you mean? And I'd be like, this is very offensive. They'd be like, yeah, like, they'd be down it. Like, they don't care. I mean, I think, like, just the way they said it, I feel like you don't even need to add the technical context, but But no, nah, my grandmother would have been behind it for sure. My mom too. Like, so I feel really bad that she didn't have that support. But shout out to her that despite not having that support, still stood up for her. She stood on business. Like, yes, there is not a single universe that I think this girl is an asshole. If anything, I think she should have— like, she should have went even harder. I think she should have read him to filth. She'd been like, your shoes are ugly, and Why are you wearing red with brown, bro?

Like, don't do that. No, I'm just—

why are you wearing a Patagonia when it's like 70 degrees out?

Like, yeah, no, I am so— I am so happy though with her actual response. She really took like a higher road, and I, I hope that even if, you know, other people including her mom made her feel bad about it, that she feels proud of standing up for herself.

I really hope so. I really do. Because that is—

we feel you.

We understand you. We see you. We see you, author. We see you. Because it's hard out here for us all.

It sure is.

It's hard to be for us all.

Speaking of outfits that we should or should not be wearing, I'm getting a little hot in this robe. So should we call it a day?

No, I have work to do. I'm going to do this and I might show up to all my meetings today like this and they're gonna be like, what? What are you doing? I'll be like, don't ask.

Don't ask. Yeah, you don't need to know.

I'm like, listen, listen, you want me here, you want me on the road. Like it's either off camera and you don't see the robe or I'm wearing the robe. The robe's staying.

The robe is staying.

I love it.

All right, well I'll see you on the worldwide web.

Yep.

All right, see you, Allison. See ya!

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