Finding Peace Through Pastry

My team initially, when they appeared, was like, "Yay, macarons!" And then they got to a point where they're like, "Oof, macarons.

Someone should check on her." This is 5 to 9, the podcast where we discover the hidden passions and hobbies that engineering, product, and technology leaders obsess over when the workday ends. Tanya, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate everyone joining this, but like, I just heard you were in San Francisco, then New Zealand, and then Hong Kong, and then now you're in London with like zero hours of sleep. So you're really doing me a favor here. Thank you so much for being here.

I was, I was very excited to speak to you folks. So very happy to come off a flight and—

I am super excited about this one because this is like, there's so many things in this that are near and dear to my heart, but, uh, or my tummy, and we'll explain that in a second. But before we go there, Tanya, do you mind doing a quick intro? Like, who are you?

Sure. I'm Tanya Johnson. So I'm usually based in New Zealand. I am Chief Product Officer at a company called Aura, and we build retail crime intelligence software. So yeah, wonderful. Usually from New Zealand, but today from London.

Yeah. So actually, I never asked, like, why are you traveling the globe in this crazy travels? Because we were trying to do this in San Francisco a week ago, but like logistics didn't work. So How, why do you move around so much?

Yeah, you know, good old-fashioned COVID and things going a little bit remote. I have teams in many, many, many different regions, and so I'm usually traveling to spend some time with them, but also with our customers. And I go around talking about next-gen tech and AI and stuff. And so that's why I'm in London this week.

Wonderful. Well, I really appreciate it again, and I promise we'll zip through this and let you Got a couple of winks in here. Well, let's jump into this, right? So, we talked originally, like, I think we met briefly earlier and I asked you, well, what do you care about? Because like many of us, you mentioned you seek out hobbies that like, and then things that kind of help your brain kind of go chill, go quiet, I think in your words. Like, maybe actually before we, like, why do you care about that?

That's a good question. And I've also, I also like hearing that it's not just me. So my brain sometimes feels like a browser window with 1,000 tabs open. And I've tried to meditate. I have tried going on courses and going on retreats. And it just doesn't happen for me. And after experiencing burnout, probably in 2017, 2018, I really needed to find a way to kind of reduce the noise a little bit. And so I started experimenting with what works for me. And to be honest, what works for me best is getting a life, is getting something outside of work and not being 100% dedicated to work. But then it was about narrowing down the kind of things that resonated with me and the kind of things that made my brain go quiet. And I have found a few patterns. You know, it's often stuff using my hands rather than just, just my mind. And things that require a level of precision tend to be the ones that catch me and make things just quieten down a little bit.

So I have the one I want to talk about today, or we decided, oh, like we both want to talk about, but like before we even got to that one, You made it hard. We talked about a bunch of things you do. Just for curiosity, remind me, like, before we got to the one we're going to talk about, which I'm really holding back here, what were the other things we were talking about that were precision, that helps your mind go quiet, all these things?

Yeah, it was kind of funny when you folks started talking about hobbies because I was like, well, how do I choose? So, the first one that really resonated with me was rock climbing. And that's probably partially because I'm terrified of heights. So, It's a very, very effective way of getting my mind to quieten down. I've done taekwondo for many, many years. And again, that's that kind of precision piece. And I absolutely love taekwondo. I love most martial arts, but taekwondo is the one that I tend to do. I've really gotten into woodworking. I'm busy building up a workshop of things. I love doing DIY. And I love riding my motorbike, but I have discovered that just riding my motorbike isn't enough. I like to know how things work. And so I've actually been changing out parts and things and trying to learn how to maintain motorbikes. Very tempted to take it all apart and rebuild it again, but I'm trying to hold myself back. And then I think the one that you wanted to talk about today is one that has been a long-term love. So I've got a terrible sweet tooth. Luckily, so do my teams, and I have discovered a passion for baking, particularly patisserie, so pastry baking. And again, heading towards as far to the precision end of that as possible.

I love it, by the way. Like, we could just do a whole season just on Tanya's activities here. I mean, like, look, I heard precision is a big part of it, which I think requires focus, which helps clear the mind. Some of those had fear in it, I think, too. You said heights and like a little danger, fear. I'm guessing baking pastries doesn't have there.

No, no, not as much. I think you'll find that in motorbiking, in rock climbing, in taekwondo, there is an element of if this goes wrong, it's going to go very, very wrong. No one likes being kicked in the face. No one wants to come off a bike. Pastry is a lot more forgiving, although my family would probably argue that it doesn't feel that way sometimes when I'm in the kitchen. Things can get a little bit high stress at times.

Well, let's talk about baking pastries, right? So, like, I've learned a little about this. I've got a chef in the family here, and we're talking about the baking pastries. It's not just, you know, to the layperson, it's not just cooking here, right? How does precision actually fit into this? And like, how does precision factor into baking, right?

Yeah. You think that if someone likes baking, they might like cooking, but for me, the two are completely separate. So to me, cooking is very much an art. You can throw in a little bit of this, a little bit of that. I tend to get 5 ingredients down a recipe and go, that's enough ingredients. I'm bored. I'm moving on. But baking is science, right? Baking is everything has to be at the exact temperature. Everything needs to be folded the right way. It's very, very, very precise. And with baking, I can get incredibly meta. I have been known to sometimes make the flour before I make the cake. It's—

You make— time. You're making flour. I go to the store and buy some flour. What is with making flour being here?

Well, sometimes the result that you want needs to be better than just buying flour from the store. So a few years ago, I made a birthday cake for my partner and she loves baklava. And I wanted to make a cake that was baklava-inspired. And so as soon as I go there, I start planning, but you don't want a cake made of flour for something baklava-inspired. I wanted something with the right mix of nuts, for example. And so some experimentation came in there, but I do find it a little bit amusing to think that, you know, 5 ingredients into cooking, I'm like, hell no, I'm out. Whereas with, with baking, I can easily do a recipe that's 7 or 8 different components over a number of days. That doesn't faze me at all.

Is it, it's also about control, right? Some of this too, or precision control, all of these things, they go hand in hand, right?

Oh, you should talk to my therapist. Well, okay.

Well, the, the geek part of the food geek in me, cause like I'm really curious about like when you're getting flours, so you said nut flours. Are you varying the glutens? Are you varying the, the starch content? Are you going for flavor? Like, what are you controlling for here?

Yeah. So it depends on the thing. And I love, I love that you talk about this kind of thing. You can see I'm getting excited already. I'm like, yes, let's go. So in this case, with that particular bake, I was really just trying to get the right types of nuts and the right types of textures in. But yeah, absolutely. If you're baking different types of breads, which I do very seldom, you might want to change the gluten content, sometimes in cookies. So I love making cookies, just having them always in the freezer for us. But, you know, you want to do things like you brown your butter first and then you might want to add a tablespoon of corn flour to the mixture. And that's about the texture that comes out.

Okay. Is this— are we drawing a micro line here? Because you said breads rarely. Does this mean you're a chemical leavener person and not a, you know, is that a devising part of it or is it just the The format of a bread, or is it the sweetness? Like, how does your brain divide those?

I think it's the sweetness. I think that when you're starting to do breads, you're starting to head a little bit more towards the savory side of things. And that's where I start losing interest a little bit. It just doesn't have the same payoff and not the sweet tooth kind of side of things. So the last time I was doing a bread, and it was many, many years ago, it was very heavy on the sweet side. So it was folding in all sorts of amazing ingredients. Yeah.

Okay. So you talk about precision and accuracy. I'm sure your house is full of tools, but like, what is the Swiss Army knife or what is the must-have toolkit? Like the things you have to make sure you are nailing this. Uh-oh. Nobody likes this question, right?

Apparently I'm not moving enough for the lights to stay on.

We need more energy.

It needs to be more excited. All right. If I wave my arms randomly, it's because I'm trying to keep the lights on.

Yeah. But, uh, yeah. So what's the toolkit? What's in the tool bag here?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, so much. Although I got to tell you, I've got a real passionate hatred for single-use kitchen items. So I have very few of those. Usually I go with, with things that can be used on anything. My stand mixer is indispensable. I have been using it for about 10 years. I'll probably be upgrading it at some point, but a stand mixer is just an absolute must-have when you're doing the kind of baking.

Is it a layperson? Is it like a regular— I don't know if you have this in New Zealand, but like a KitchenAid? Is it just like a KitchenAid Artisanal, or are you at the pro level? What are we talking here?

So I use something called a Breville Scraper Mixer Pro. It sounds super fancy. It's actually not. It's probably one of the higher-end domestic ones, which is a little bit of a problem because sometimes I'm baking in quantities that don't quite go into it. So I have to do things in 2 or 3 stages. And so when I do upgrade, I will be looking for probably a lower-end commercial. Stand mixer. The important thing—

like a Hobart, like one that's like as tall as like a forklift?

Do you know, every time I walk past a restaurant and I see that they've got a mixer and it is so large that it is on the floor, I get heart eyes. I'm like, I want to remake my kitchen so that I can have one of those. But no, probably not. I'd probably, I'd probably go for one of the larger KitchenAids. You just want to be able to turn something on and walk away from it. If you're making something like nougat, for example, you want to whip that for a good 10 to 15 minutes and you do not have time to be doing that with a hand beater.

Okay. So, okay. So the mixer is the key part. What else are we talking like?

Uh, this is where you get me to admit that I've changed out all of my kitchen. Yeah.

I wanna hear it. I wanna hear it. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

'Cause I've heard it's about temperature, right? Like your hands and temperature.

Yes. Absolutely.

Like I've heard I, I have hot hands, so I'm gonna be bad at this. I will.

I've got cold hands, which is kind of good. But also I switched out for engineered stone in my kitchen specifically to try and keep pastry cold. Which means I can actually work on it for a little bit longer than you could with other types of kitchen counters. It was quite a big job. Yeah.

Do you use like a regular bench scraper? Are you worried it's going to scrape it or what do you use to kind of get it off there?

Oh, I've got plastic scrapers. I've got metal scrapers. I tend to use this. It looks like a plastic half circle, which I really, really like. So it's got one side that's flat and one side that's a semicircle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And these are— this is your, your art here. And then like, I'm assuming knives. But this is all about keeping it cool and not touching it too much. Why does it matter to keep things cool?

We're working with butter quite a lot, but you don't want that butter to melt, right? You want it to go in at a good kind of temperature and you don't want to change the consistency of the pastry too much. So it's really important to keep things as cold as possible and to not overwork it with pastry. You don't want it to get tough. I can't give you the exact scientific reasons why, but believe me, you'll know if you do it. It doesn't work out very well. So gooey or like— Yeah, it kind of just goes a bit tough and gross. You won't get the kind of flaky layers that you want in that pastry.

Okay. So yeah, I learned a cool word today, lamination, right? That's the layering. Yes.

I love laminated pastries. They are so delicious.

Well, we'll get into those in a second, but, uh, but actually I remembered we were talking earlier and you said patisserie and I, I've, I've visited before and there's two words, patisserie and viennoiserie, or like there's two words that kind of divide, you know, this is a thing. What is it? What does patisserie mean then?

So patisserie, as far as I'm concerned, just means pastry making. So it's really just a kind of a fancy French word for that. A little bit like we'll often use the French terms for types of pastry, which is not really a thing. So like pâte sablée, for example, I think is just a basic shortcrust pastry, but it helps differentiate between them.

That sounds delicious. And you were telling me about, well, actually I think we were talking about, uh, one of your difficult ones, like, that you make, which is, uh, macarons, right? Like, this is—

yeah. Oh, yes.

So let's say that's one of your go-tos and, like, things you've worked on a lot. Like, so is that, like, a high precision thing?

Yeah, definitely. So macarons are notoriously tricky. They're super delicious, super flexible. You can obviously add any types of filling, but they are very, very sensitive to even things like changes in temperature and humidity and overmixing. And so they kind of sparked for me, number one, because they're delicious, but number two, because there was that level of precision. And so when I started making macarons, I started a flip file and I would bake them once and then I would change one thing and I'd write down what the results were and what I changed. And I kept going until I found something that worked really well for me. And also with macarons, not to nerd out too much, but there are like 3 different methods that you can make macarons, right? So there's the French method, which is um, almost like a very basic meringue where you're whipping eggs and sugar together and the other ingredients. Um, it's not very stable, um, which makes it hard, especially when you've got something that is so sensitive to changes in the environment and changes in things that you do. Then you've got the Italian method where you raise sugar to a particular temperature and then you pour it into the egg whites. Uh, it requires you to have things like a candy thermometer and a stand mixer and to be very precise, but it is incredibly stable. And then there's the Swiss method, which is kind of halfway between the two. You don't need a candy thermometer, but you are still heating up sugar. And personally, Italian method, I would take the stability over everything. I like it when something works out exactly right.

Okay. So you're going to tell us, so you need a thermometer or you need this thing because you're controlling the details of this stuff. Absolutely. So like, have you been tweaking this? So like, what are the controls you do on this?

Yeah, maximum things. So this might sound a bit gross, aging egg whites. So macarons work best with egg whites that aren't super, super, super fresh. Personally, I found 4 days is about right. I'm putting them in the fridge, obviously, but you basically crack your eggs, you put your, your egg whites to one side. And then I tested how it works with egg whites that are freshly cracked with 1 day, 2 day, 3 day, 4 day.

Random curiosity in New Zealand, when you buy eggs, do you buy them in the refrigerator or are they out? Right.

Okay. Out. I think that in the US, eggs are acid washed or something for germs. And that means that they have to be kept refrigerated, but it's not the same in New Zealand. And so, okay.

So you crack them, sort the eggs out with your fingers, I'm guessing. And then you've got a ton of egg whites. You put them in the fridge. What do you do with all the yolks?

Oh man, this is, this is an age-old question is What do you do? And especially when you're baking in those kind of quantities, it feels terrible to throw them away. So, I have been tending to try and find recipes that take up egg yolks. And then, you get into this odd thing because often a recipe will take like 6 egg yolks and 2 egg whites. And then, I'm like, "Oh, damn it. I've now got like the same problem again." It's a pain.

Can't win.

Okay.

I was curious, right? You can't win. You can't win. Okay. So, you've got controls on this. I think in all this, there's actually layers of environment.

Yes.

So like, how does temperature like really affect it? We talked about the stone, but how about the air and stuff?

Yeah. Macarons don't like humidity. I don't know why. Um, if you were making like a French method macaron, I probably wouldn't make it if the air was too humid, if there was a storm, if there was any rain. I honestly find the Italian method to be so stable. You could probably make it regardless, but it is something to think about is, is just those things.

But you don't have a temp— you don't have a humidity control methodology yet.

I don't have a humidity control methodology. Just bake things on different days if you really need to. Otherwise, find a stabilization method. Yet.

I feel like one of these days I'm going to call you back and you're going to be like, I have a new air control thing.

Yeah, I'll be like, the house is fully temperature controlled just for me.

Okay. Beyond this. All right. So you've talked about macarons. What are your other favorite pastries to make?

Oh, you talked about lemonade pastries earlier. Something I really love making is called kouign-amann. And I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly.

I think it is. I looked it up. I think that's right. But it's not spelled in the Queen way. It's spelled in a crazy way, right?

I know it's like K-O-U-I-G-N or something. It's a very strange spelling, but what it is, is you laminate pastry. So you make pastry and you layer in layers of butter like you would for a croissant, right? So you are—

so you keep folding it, right? Okay.

Absolutely. But when you're laminating these layers, you're adding, I thin layer of sugar in between at the same time. And then when you bake the pastry, that all caramelizes inside the pastry and it becomes incredibly delicious. It's like this crispy, crunchy, caramelized, flaky, buttery pastry. It's—

have you done the nerd math to figure out how many layers you actually end up with and the exponent of actually folding it and folding it?

I have not, but I'm sorry you said that because you know I'm going to do it now.

I know, but you could Google here, right? Like, okay, so we can do the math. I actually said like, How many folds do you do? And then we could do the math later on to actually how many layers you end up with.

Yeah. So I think traditionally you're supposed to do 3 folds and with folds, you're doing them a little bit like a book, right? So you roll out your pastry and then you fold it in halfway and then in. So you've got kind of 3 layers and then you pop it back in the fridge for a while. I can't remember, probably about an hour. You pull it out, you do it again. And I personally do that about 3 times, but then with Queen Amman, you then go and cut it up into squares and you again fold it quite intricately. So you can get into kind of different shapes. So there's the point at which I think all the maths is probably going to become a little bit difficult. Yeah.

I'm at least hearing like a fruit of the three kind of thing, maybe.

At least.

At least. At least. Something like that, right? Which sounds delicious, right? I can't wait. Do you, okay, so I heard you though, you roll it. You don't have one of those, I've seen them in the bakeries where they have the shoveling squishy thing. Like what is that thing called?

Yeah. Those are fun to watch, but I do wonder if they would take some of that kind of precision and some of that doing things with my hands out of it for me. Like often I'll choose to make tart bases and things literally with my hands because I like it. I like the way it feels. I like that I know what it feels like. So I don't use a stand mixer with a dough hook for those kinds of things.

Okay. So I like, this is all like, I'm learning more about you in this, right? Cause it's not just doing it. It's a little bit, sometimes a little danger. It's about control, but it's also tangibility. And the control is not just environmental control. It's your tangibility and control. In that space.

Yeah. And also it doesn't need to be quick, you know, for me, if this is my form of meditation, yeah, then it can take as long as it needs to take. I, I don't need to do it in a hurry.

Okay. So this actually speaks about time. Like, how do you work it in? Right? Like, well, beyond your, your bonkers travels, like, let's say in a regular time when you're at home, how do you incorporate it into your life? Right? Because we have, You know, the Zoom calls were on, we have to work, we have family, we have obligations.

Yeah.

You said control, like, it sounds like the kind of pastry you do, you're controlling it, it's not controlling you.

Oh, definitely.

Because I do, I do sourdough, like, this is one of those things that I learned, and, uh, so I know a little bit about the gluten questions and all of those things, but I find I used to do it a lot more, you know, in pandemic times.

Yeah.

If you're like around and home a ton. The challenge with sourdough is it almost controls you, right? Because it rises at the rate it does. You could do a little bit to tweak the temperature and you could do that, but really it's its own living organism, literally, right? And so, it moves at the rate. So, I don't control it. And this has been very hard to incorporate in the schedule these days where I'm traveling more and then the logistics are harder on that stuff. But, so the pitch you do, you can control it a bit more.

Yeah, I was about to say, it sounds like sourdough is definitely not for me because it would very much hit my don't tell me what to do button. Yeah, I used to bake on weekends. So on Sunday afternoons, our family tends to have a little bit of like an open house policy for our friends and family, and they all know there's going to be baking. People tend to wander in at about 2 PM, and so I'll usually be baking on a Saturday. And that also means that anything that's left over gets taken to my team on a Monday morning, And then the second time that I bake is if I'm stressed. So, if I am very, very, very stressed, I will often put everything down, go into the kitchen, get something started, and then come back to work.

Is there a specific pastry you make that actually is the stress-baking pastry that we all know and then the people are chopping and this is a stressful time?

Honestly, macarons was it for a while. My team initially when they appeared was like, yay, macarons. And then they got to a point where they're like, oh, macarons. Someone should, someone should check on her.

Well, in those situations though, like why, why do macarons help in that situation?

I think it's because of that effect that it has on me where it kind of quietens, quietens down the brain. So if I'm juggling many things and things are getting a little bit stressful, it's a good way to kind of reset. I think a lot of people will do something like they will go for a run or they will go meditate. And those are just two things that don't work for me, but this one does. And so it just takes, it takes the stress down a level. And I, I think it is that level of focus that it takes and it's completely separate to work. It's, uh, there's not really anything stressful about it. If it fails, it fails. That's okay.

Have there, okay, actually I'm curious. What's an example of a real big strikeout you've had? Like what's been a failure case?

Oh man. Like when I was tasting the macarons, I failed so many times. Sometimes I don't think rationally when I get something started. I decided I would love to make mochi, which is—

Oh, the Japanese, like the, yeah.

Yeah. Japanese rice flour pastries. But for some reason, a friend has called me an idiot for this. I was like, all right, well, the first step in making mochi is grinding the rice. Friends, the first step in mochi is going to the store and buying rice flour, not trying to make rice flour. It was absurd. Absolutely absurd. It all got thrown out. It was a rubbish experiment.

You know, if you ever get to do it, one of the cool things about making mochi is you don't have to beat it.

Beat it?

Yes. Like there's a physicality about that one, which is a different stress thing that you get to—

Yeah, absolutely. The videos I've seen often have two people and like one of them's pulling it with their hands while the other one smashes the plate in. And that sounds like a new level of terror to add to baking.

Well, I mean, I look, I think failure cases are, it's, you gotta take a try, right? So, uh, what's your favorite flavor of macarons? Like both in the actual meringues and in the filling. What's your move here?

I love pistachio or anything. Pistachio is—

Oh, so you do pistachio instead of almond flour?

No. So I would usually do almond flour and I might color it a little bit and then I would make a pistachio filling. So I know a lot of people use like a crème pâtissière or something. I actually like just using a good ganache and flavoring that. So that would be good. And then I like experimenting with weird and different flavors. For a little while, um, when Mama Fuuka Milk Bar started, I did cereal milk everything. I think my family's probably very sick of it, but yeah, that was a kind of a train of thought I went along.

I love it. Do you keep a journal of all this or is there a log? Or is this all in your head and just go with it?

Yeah, no, once upon a time there was a blog which died at some point and I do not miss it. I email and send myself Slack DMs about baking ideas.

Because you're so precise and you're tweaking these. Do you keep the tweaks in a journal? Okay.

Yeah, absolutely. And so if also, if I'm baking from like a recipe book, I love recipe books. I tend to keep them, read them as though they're novels and then come back to them. So I'll read it page to page, but if you look at any of my cookbooks, they will be filled with Post-it notes and stickers and crossouts. And, um, they'll often have batter spilled in them. And I don't mind one bit about desecrating my books like that because it's me. It means they're being well loved and well used.

Well, okay. So is there a, uh, I'll just leave this second, but is there a favorite book that like, you know, that's been your go-to? Like both of them, how about the, you know, something that inspired you or something that you're excited about? Like what, you know, which of these Can I pick 3? What's that? Yeah, let's go. Let's go.

It's like choosing a favorite child. There is a book called Hello, My Name Is Ice Cream, which is a very odd name, but it is about the science of ice cream. And so it gives you, for example, different ways of getting particular textures. And it talks about different methods for making ice cream. And it is amazing and delicious.

I've heard, is it talk about the trick? I've heard a little tapioca flour in ice cream actually helps because it breaks up the ice crystals, right?

Exactly. And so they give 3 methods. One of them is more of a commercial method, and it's actually quite hard to get the ingredients. And then the second one is the tapioca starch one, which is the one I prefer. It's very easy to get. It gets a really good result. And then there's a third one. I can't remember what it was, but it wasn't quite as good. And then other books, Brave Tart, her name's Stella Powell. Yeah. Yeah.

The, I think we make her chocolate chip cookies. They're great.

Do you know what? She takes that scientific basis to all of her cooking and everything I've ever made from her works out beautifully. I think she's got one called Iconic American Eats, which is fantastic. Um, it's making things like Oreo cookies and graham crackers and that kind of thing. And so you get to actually make it in your kitchen, which is also good for me because living in New Zealand, I don't have access to all of the—

Graham crackers are odd, right? Like, that's not a— it's an odd thing.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And then the last one is one that really inspires me. It's a book called Pâtisserie, and it's by William and Suzu Curly. And it is next level, beautiful, beautiful cakes and pastries and things. And I'm slowly working my way through and just increasing my skills on that one.

Very, very cool. So this leads me to like, if someone as a listener is inspired learning to want to make queen of mums or great macarons. Uh, it sounds like, should they start with those books or do you have other places that like, if you're a learning resource, how would someone actually get started here? But what would they need to buy? Like, what are the basics they need to buy to get started here?

You don't actually need a lot of equipment. So I honestly think that a stand mixer will level up your baking, but you can get by for quite a long time without it, just with a hand mixer and things.

And then how about guides? Yeah. Yeah.

Serious Eats is a huge one for me. So I would start following Serious Eats, go search through their recipes, find something that sounds really delicious because often the motivation that you need is that encouragement that you get from someone loving what you made. So I love making birthday cakes because who isn't delighted by a friend making them a cake, right? There's something special about it. So I would pick something that your friends and family will love because, you know, you—

like a baklava cake you were describing that you hand grind your own flours for. I mean, by the way, it sounds delicious. I mean, it's got nuts, it's got honey, I'm guessing. It's got like a little bit of crisp in there somehow, right?

Honestly, it was the most delicious cake and I probably wouldn't recommend it. It took a very long time.

Okay, I like, I heard wonderful tips there, which is get those books, a stand mixer, a little Serious Eats, and then find some friends or team members to eat your successes.

Yep.

And don't be afraid of the mistakes. Because this little bit of control gives you a way to actually de-stress along the way.

Absolutely. My team talks about cake-driven development, and I joke, but when someone joins my team, I find out what they love, and at some point in the future, it is going to appear.

Do you, have you flown with your creations?

I have. I made someone very angry on a flight once because I flew with a lemon meringue pie, which is something I make very, very frequently. It's one of my favorite things. And I didn't realize that the baking dish that it was in had this hairline crack. And some poor lady ended up with lemon meringue syrup all over her hand. Like it was really awkward.

Well, you know, they were smelling delicious for a while, I'm sure.

I just need to package things a little bit more carefully.

We need to work on lemon meringue. That's a summertime, that sounds delicious. I feel like I fail at that often because our, the meringue weeps.

Right.

So probably means I need to try the Italian method and maybe that'll stabilize it.

Yeah. Although I don't know, I sometimes think that the way that sugar weeps is a superpower rather than a fault. It's not a bug. And if you get the right kind of base for your lemon meringue, then that syrup makes it extra delicious. Yeah. It's a feature, not a bug.

Feature, not a bug. Right. Well, Tanya, thank you so much for this. This is so much fun. And I hope we get to cross paths geographically because you and I need to eat together.

Yeah, absolutely. Where are you?

I'm in Boston, right? Um, but I grew up in California, so maybe we'll meet up there too.

Yeah, that sounds like fun.

Tanya, thank you for being here. Love having you on the show. I am hungry, I am curious. I really appreciate it.

Awesome, thanks, Andrew. If I'm ever in Boston, I'll try and bring some baking.

Can't wait. Andrew Lau here. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Five to Nine. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on the next episode. Who knows what hidden talents and hobbies we'll discover in the next episode of Five to Nine.