On Wednesdays we loud quit

This is one of the most loud ways of quitting where they hired a band, an entire band. Like, I'm talking cymbals, like, like a band line, like a march line. It was probably like 15 people who walked into the building and they like led the charge and they're like, na na na na na na na, and then handed their resignation letter and then just left the building. You're listening to Off the VPN.

The show where two work besties get real about working in tech. Hey Jasmine.

Hey Allison, what's up? Not much.

How are you doing? Tell me, tell me something about your life.

I'm doing great. I actually made it to the beach over the weekend, which I know we've been talking about it. It was excellent. And I'm also very glad I'm not a Microsoft employee in the past week because I'm sure it was really rough.

Yeah, CrowdStrike. I actually didn't even know what was going on. I was just like so laser focused on my work on Friday. And then I was talking to someone who was like, yeah, my flight's delayed. I was like, oh, sick. Like, by how much? Like, what do you— how are you going to fill the time? And then they were like, oh my gosh, it just got more delayed and more delayed. And then I finally decided I should maybe read the news and see what's going on. And then I was like, oh.

Yes, bad time to be flying for sure. I just think about like that incident retro is gonna be crazy. I would pay to be a fly on the wall for that retrospective. I can't wait to find out more. I love a good like incident story. But yeah, whoever shipped that bug or was a part of that, my heart goes out to you, man. So today's topic is not actually about Microsoft and not about incidents, although we should do one about that in the future. Today is about, you know, you've heard of quiet quitting, you know, which is like people working and they're reducing their productivity and doing just enough to get by so that they don't get fired. Today is about loud quitting. Now, Allison, I'd love if you like told us more about what is loud quitting? What does that even mean?

Can I cite the internet? To explain what last week was.

You may. Internet is allowed in this.

May I phone a friend, Jasmine?

Okay. You may. Only if I get to play the— this is back to the "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" music. We should have that on cue. Like, can we actually add that to the track right now? Da, da, da, da, da. While Allison's talking.

Yeah. Phoning my friend who is money.usnews.com. Loud quitting. Okay, I'm gonna read this quote directly, and I'm gonna roll my eyes a little as I read it. Just bear with me. What is loud quitting? This type of quitting is just like it sounds— dramatic, noisy, and sceneworthy. Eye roll. A key part of loud quitting is that it generally involves an employee venting about disappointments, disagreements, and dissatisfactions with their company, boss, or colleagues. Rather than simmering on these grievances and underperforming. Like quiet quitters, loud quitters are willing and able to openly express how they feel. So a loud quitter is basically going out with a bit of a bang, like, hey, here's everything that wasn't working for me. I'm not going to shy away. I'm not going to quietly, like, leave this company. I'm going to let everybody know what I think went wrong here and why I am leaving and things that I believe need to be fixed. That spectrum of loudness I think could be quite large, as we're going to learn today with some of these stories. But generally speaking, it's like the opposite of quiet quitting, which is just sitting back and being like, bare minimum Mondays. I'm not really going to go above and beyond, just kind of do what I need to do to get in, get out, get paid.

I love the concept of loud quitting, although I'm sure between the two of us, we would never actually do any of these things, but my dream scenario of quitting a job— I saw this online one time where this person was quitting and they had a toxic workplace, and they— this is one of the most loud ways of quitting, where they hired a band, an entire band. Like, I'm talking cymbals, like, like a band line, like a march line. There's probably like 15 people who walked into the building And they like led the charge and they're like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and then handed their resignation letter and then just left the building. So like my dream scenario is to do something like that extravagant, although I never would, you know, you gotta maintain professionalism. But in my head, what a way to go out, you know? Like just something just so insane. I love that.

I wonder where in the like band line the actual employee was. Were they in the back?

Were they like— I think they were in the front, like leading the charge.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah, they're like, I quit. Like, that would be funny too if you like did like a very large banner and it just said, I quit, this place sucks, for everyone to see, you know. These are like imaginary scenarios for me. I wouldn't do it, but I see things like this online all the time and it's literally hilarious. Do you have like a dream scenario of like how you would quit and just the most dramatic way.

Well, that just inspired— I think throwing like a surprise quitting party would be really funny. Like everyone's just sitting at their desks like normal, normal Wednesday afternoon. And then all of a sudden, like a line of like caterers start coming in and like a DJ shows up and like there's like party decorations and party hats and everyone's like, what's going on? Like, is there free lunch today? And then it's just like I make an announcement like, hey everyone, this will be my last day. Please enjoy. All the food, this lovely barbecue we have set up. It's all on me. Don't worry. Like, I just like go all out with like a—

wait, but I actually love this. I would be your quit DJ. I would happily DJ for you. I'll set up a microphone. So that's where you can like, like, yeah, so I'm out. Good luck.

Good luck.

What would you say in your speech?

Well, I mean, I don't— it depends on why I'm quitting, right?

Right.

Probably, I would probably be like, listen, here are the 5 top reasons I am out of here.

Oh, so you're going to let them know why you're leaving? Well, you have.

That's part of loud quitting. But we're going to go over—

I feel like it needs to be vague, in my opinion. I would want to say the most vague thing that— I'd just be like, it's been real, and then just leave.

I mean, yeah, that's one way to do it. I love the idea of specialty cocktails that are themed around the 5 reasons why I'm quitting.

This is a very planned ordeal. You have a job lined up for this because all this effort you put into quitting, like, you definitely should have secured a good job.

Yeah, that's a, that's a fair point. That's a very fair point. I mean, it can even turn into a little bit of a two-way situation. We passed the mic around, we're like, if anybody has any last words for me, now's your time.

It's like a wedding, like, where people like come up and they're like, well, that would be uncomfortable. That would be uncomfortable.

All right, for the record, not doing any of this actually in practice.

Yeah, who knows, who knows, who knows. Maybe, maybe we'll see. I kind of want to make your vision a reality. So I have a story for you about someone who did some very, very loud quitting. I know we've talked about this one before, but we're gonna bring it up again. All right. It, it's still good. It's still so good. All right. So am I the asshole for refusing to accept a job aimed at replacing me? I worked hard for 6 years to build great custom software for a small startup. The owner suddenly developed a personal problem with me. I've been heavily demoted and my pay is cut by over 35%. The problem for them is no one there knows a damn thing about software or how to maintain what I've created. Mm-hmm. Uh, they need me. So the new job requirements, in order to keep what little salary is still on offer, is to create detailed documentation and materials to, in their words, transition to a new programmer. So they want this guy to just document a bunch of stuff so that they can transition to the next person. Big mistake. At first I just said, hell no, I'll quit first. Then, in the spirit of compromise, I offered to create everything they need and send it to an escrow company to be released in case of my death, willful resignation, or after 5 years, whichever comes first. They're calling me unreasonable and accusing me of extortion. Am I the asshole here?

This story is so good. Oh my gosh. I think I see every side of it, you know, of like, you're basically being asked by your employer to do a bunch of work so that someone can replace you, and then you're not needed anymore, right? Incredibly awful situation to be put in. It's just extremely transparent, like, okay, if I do this, then you don't need me, then what comes next is I have to find a new job.

There's that.

But then there's on the employer side, like, we don't know all of the reasons why they're replacing this person. We don't know why they cut their pay. We don't know what's going on. Maybe there are legitimately like good reasons for all or any of that.

We don't know.

On the employer side though, to be like, what? You're putting what in escrow? Like, how many people can say that they've had to deal with that at their engineering jobs? Like, yeah, I have an employee here who wants to put some code documentation held in escrow. I would just have to like sit at my desk for like 3 hours and process that before I could even like react to the person.

That's actually a really good point. I don't know how I would respond to that. I think I would just be like, just go. Like, yeah, it's just kind of ridiculous. But I also think it's a horrible ask of the employer to say like, hey, I'm letting you go, just like set it up so that I can hire the next guy. Like, that just seems just I don't know what they were expecting to come out of this. It's a bit ridiculous. But I also, I don't know if you picked up on this, that I think is funny when they were like, no one here knows a damn thing about software or how to maintain what I've created. And I'm just thinking about like, if this per— I don't know if they're the only engineer or like there's other engineers, but that is such a red flag in my head. Like no one knows what I wrote. And I always joke about like the solo, engineer who like just writes a bunch of garbage spaghetti that only they understand. And you know, it being job security, right? Like it's job security because no one's going to be able to do anything with the code you wrote. And I think this is an example of that when you try to get rid of the person that you've literally had for years. And anyone who goes into this like, you know, system now is going to be like, what, what is this? And I can just imagine it being like a Jenga block system where it's like I don't even think documentation is going to help this person, right? Like, I know I'm like making a guess, but just from the context here, my best guess is like, this is like they're gonna pull a Jenga block out of this system and it's just going to like fall apart. Like, if you've ever been a part of a legacy system that is just so like just bad, I can just only imagine. And, and a lot of it's because of like lack of diversity of thought, and like you don't have like compromises that you're making with other people, you know, that's what makes systems good. And I'm just thinking of like, no matter what, this person's probably just gonna have to rebuild stuff. And so this employer, yeah, like they're in a bad spot no matter what. You kind of need to eat it and just hope this person— you're just— it was just bad decisions all around.

I see what you're saying though. You're basically saying from the employer's perspective this threat of this is the only person who knows how the code works and them writing documentation may not make a difference. They should just like depart ways, like call it quits now. Someone else will just have to rebuild and like you just have to live with that.

It's kind of on them that they made this person a linchpin, right? Like that's—

Oh, sure.

Yeah. That's my issue too. It's like they have the upper hand here because they're seeing it this way. You know what I mean? And there are other options, right? Like along the way, maybe they should have hired someone else to help with this, right? Like, and this might be— they said quote unquote they don't know shit about software, right? So they probably aren't aware of these, you know, practices, right? So this is definitely an example, I think, of like, damn. But the escrow, I would have never guessed. I would ever would have thought that. And I love that, like, the release— release in case of death. Yeah, willful resignation or after 5 years. So you can't fire me for 5 years. I feel like that's just such a— like, I would say like give me a couple months, like if you were gonna at least do this. But I think it's just funny, like the death case is just— this turns into like a true crime like episode.

There's all conspiracies about like, oh my gosh, no, we're not going there. But I actually think that might be like a legal escrow thing and not necessarily a condition of the dev. But like, what do I know about escrow? I don't know anything.

I clearly need to know more because if an engineer does this to me, I need to be prepared.

Yup.

I would just be like, yeah, never mind. Just, just go. Just leave. It's fine. Just go. It's okay.

Yeah, but I don't know. There's some sense of like the employee doesn't want to go unless they feel like they've been— I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Like, why isn't the employee just quitting, right? Why are they even offering escrow as an option? There has to be reason they're jumping to that versus like, you know what, no, I'm not gonna write this documentation for you. Like, I'm out of here. And it could be anything from they need to find a new gig and they haven't yet, or they just need to hang on to this particular job for a few more months for whatever reason, like job security, like there's things going on in their personal lives. There could be tons of reasons why they're not just like, I'm out. And so escrow is like, that's the way to protect them. But it's definitely a wild leap to— for sure.

Yeah, but I kind of, in some ways— and I don't know, maybe I need to stop like empathizing here. I mean, okay, so before I even get into my empathetic side, the thing that also gets me about the story is that they say, quote, the owner suddenly developed a personal problem with me. Because on like one hand, I'm like, I kind of dig the fact that they're like sticking up for themselves, right? I agree. Like, I would have just been like, whatever, like, I'm out, you know what I mean? Actually, I probably would have wrote the documentation because I'm too nice. I don't know, I'd probably like, oh, give me a couple weeks. I would have negotiated some timeline that worked for me. Yeah, I think that's the right thing to do is negotiate a time. Like, okay, I get it, you want me to leave, that's fine. Negotiate a timeline that seems reasonable for yourself, and then so that you're still getting paid and you can find a gig. Or maybe there's a severance package that you negotiate or something like that, and then I would do that. That's probably the right case. But the fact that they're saying like the owner suddenly developed a personal problem, I'm like, yeah, suddenly.

Well, it's interesting because they've been working there for 6 years. So years—

I want to know that tea.

Yeah, I'm imagining you have 6 years built up of like knowing this person, trusting this person, and then all of a sudden, what happened? We need a follow-up. We need a part. I know.

I'm like, is there anything in here? There's nothing in their comments. Like, I was hoping that the OP would like actually say something. Yeah, but they didn't. And I— yeah, I don't know. So I guess, what is your verdict then? Do you think this person's an asshole or not?

Oh, it's so hard because It's legitimately hard because I actually, I don't want to call them an asshole. I really don't, because I think they're just looking out for themselves and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Genuinely, I think that that is what they need to do.

You know what I mean?

Like how they're going about it is maybe something to question. I don't know that we need to involve escrow, but yeah, escrow was a funny move. It was a funny move, but I'm trying to just, think through, like, what is this person going through that's causing them to, like, get there, right? And going all the way there maybe isn't the right thing, but I don't think that in their heart they are an asshole for basically looking out for themselves and their own job security. Yeah, I'm actually like, respect. Like, I think that that's a good thing to do for yourself. What you said is probably, like, the more correct thing to go about it. Like, how do you mutually, like, compromise and negotiate? Like, This is a timeline that will allow me to find a new job. During that time, I can write this documentation for your next dev or whatever. But yeah, I don't know. I'm going to go not the asshole.

Yeah, I completely agree with your verdict. Like, I think that they're not an asshole. I think the intentions make sense. I understand why they're protecting themselves. Actually, I respect the fact that they're putting a line in the sand versus just like giving in to that. I just think their plan sucks. That's really what it is. Like, I think the strategy is bad. The strategy is bad, and I think it's just going to escalate. I think the terms are unreasonable. Like, 5 years, I can't fire you— that doesn't really make sense.

Why would you even want to be there for 5 years? Like, you're clearly not happy, right?

Yeah. So I think the terms don't make sense. I think, like, we don't know the intricacies of this relationship. Like, what if it's a new boss? What if it's just something happened? Or what if they just got really crazy at the Christmas party and it got weird? So like, that's why I gotta— I don't really know what the terms are, but I will say from what we know, yeah, the strategy is just kind of sucks. Like, I feel like you could get more of what you want and need with a different strategy. So yeah, I would say not an asshole, but hilarious. Escrow is crazy. Yeah, I don't know how I'd like start that. Like, I don't even— I'm sure there's like, there's got to be like automation. Like, I'm sure there's like, this is very accessible. Someone must have told them, like maybe they have like a lawyer friend.

Yeah.

And like the lawyer friend was like, just put an escrow on there. Like, that's a great idea, without really thinking about what other options there were. But yeah.

Of which there were many for the record.

Yeah, I think they could have negotiated the terms, but if there was like— yeah, who knows what, like how heightened things were and stuff.

All right, so lots of options for how to leave a job. Yes, putting code documentation in escrow. There's lots in between.

Hiring a live band or throwing yourself a party, a surprise, I'm a live DJ.

Yeah, lots of ways to quit. But I think at the heart of a lot of these stories is what I would argue a lot of good reasons for why you would want to leave a job. We don't know all— we didn't hear all the details, but we did hear things like, you know, maybe personal problems were getting in the way, like it just suddenly became hard to work with someone, or, you know, you had a falling out with your boss and what are you going to do after that? So I think at the heart of these stories and these modes of quitting is like a legitimate reason to leave a job, and if not, like a toxic situation that you're trying to get out of. So for our advice section here, there's someone asking, how many folks here have quit a toxic job and how? So this is a thread that a lot of people weigh in on, but we'll answer part of this question. So I'll read the full post. Hi all, I work in FAANG. I would say I am paid well, but it's been insanely stressful. I've been working here for 3 years and have continued to do 60-hour weeks every week unless I take sick time. Crunch time is easily 80 hours or more. I am mid-level but not senior yet.

And now— 80? Uh-huh. What? Sorry, keep going. 80 is crazy.

80 for crunch time though.

It's not—

most weeks are only 60.

80 hours is— Keep going. Sorry, 80 hours is nuts.

Yeah, it sure is. Okay, I am mid-level but not senior yet, and I'm now considering leaving/dialing it back. I'm applying aggressively. I know the job market is hard. I've had some health stuff, and I've saved a cushion to land on. I'm wondering how common this is for other folks. More context: I don't code in my role. I love programming. I want to go back to programming and making cool things, having pride in my work and ownership in the things I work on. Right now I do more like high-level analysis. If you left a toxic job which did not respect boundaries or time off for no real reason, what did you do after? What did you learn from it? And what advice would you give someone trying to stick it out in such a hard job market right now? Thanks. This post was written 2 months ago for reference, so like early summer, late spring. So this post is obviously targeted to people who have left a toxic job and like what did they do after. I think the question that we can weigh in on is, how do you deal with a job where they're not respecting your boundaries or your time off? And how might you go about quitting that type of job? Maybe in like a loud way, but not a disrespectful loud way, especially given that we've heard a few stories here today about other ways to do that. So yeah, what are you thinking about here?

It's tough now. And like, this is tough and I resonate with it because I know a lot of friends or just people talking about this, like with the market where it's kind of evolved to, this is pretty common. People are really experiencing this where they're sticking it out for various reasons, whether it's this person with like work boundaries or maybe it's just like their growth isn't happening at the rate that they're happy with. Or it could be really anything, right? And people are feeling stuck. A lot of people are feeling stuck these days. And so it's nothing I think I'm going to say is going to make it that much better. Like, recognizing that, like, I think that there's things you can do, but also want to just acknowledge that it sucks. Like, there's not much more to say other than it sucks. So I think that we'll start with like the boundaries, right? So starting from the very beginning, you know, boundaries are, it's about access and about what you're willing to do. So I can't remember the exact quote, but like describing boundaries, but it's not just about like, hey, I told you what my boundary was and you're allowed to keep walking over it. That's not what a boundary is. A boundary is if you walk over this line, I'm going to do this other thing. And so setting boundaries is really about like making sure that you're sticking to those things, and that's kind of creating that. Now with a job, it's hard because you want to keep the job or you need to keep your livelihood. And so I can't speak too much about what this person's environment is, but I would first like try to make sure that that boundary is very clear. And who is the one that's crossing your boundary? Is it your peers? Is it your manager? Having that conversation, you can lead— you can bring that all the way up to HR if you need to, you know what I mean? The fact that this is working so many hours, I don't know if it's like a— are they bad at sending that? Why I'm bringing up the boundary thing is I don't know if they're just not good at setting the boundary and they're feeling like pressures that they could actually push back on and they have that wiggle room, or is it really the company that is going to like fire you if you're not working 80 hours? So I think the first one is within your control, right? You can actually get better at that and talk your way through that. The latter is something that unfortunately there's not much you can do. If you're in a toxic environment, you kind of need to prioritize your health. And so that's where I think things get more sticky, where it's like, you know, this is where people quiet quit, right? And so you can maybe give the feedback and move the needle as much as you can, but most likely people are going to leave. Like we had the great resignation, right? Like lots of people are leaving due to these environments. So I would say figure out how much of it you can move the needle, figure out all the possible activities or provide the feedback. Maybe talk to your peers about getting more people to change the culture, right? But absent of all those things, you might not want to do those things. Yeah, you have to kind of figure out what the next place is and how it aligns with your priorities and values that you have for your job. But it's hard to tell with this person which one it is. How much is it like, a skill issue with setting boundaries versus this is really a toxic environment.

Yeah. And we won't, we won't really know, but those are definitely helpful things to consider. Two other things that stick out to me here. The person mentioned that they were having health issues and they saved, you know, a cushion for that. Obviously we don't know the details there and that's private, but I would say like, health above everything else. Like, right, working 80 hours a week is probably not helping anything, especially if you are lucky enough to be in a position where you've saved a cushion. Like, I say you have to focus on you and your health in this situation. And, you know, the person asks a lot of questions about leaving a toxic job. What did you do after? How do people respect your boundaries? Like, If you actually have health stuff going on, I would say like, how much of that other stuff even matters? Like seriously, because your health is like one of the most important things and you're gonna have that through all of the possible jobs that, you know, you go in and out of in life. So that's one thing that sticks out to me is like, maybe all of this is irrelevant and it's like, you just gotta do you. The second thing this person mentions is that they're not coding in their role. They love programming, they wanna go back to it, they wanna make cool things, they wanna have pride in their work. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're describing like that basically you're not happy in your job doing the things that you want to be doing, right? Like you don't feel like you have pride in your work and ownership and the things that you work on. So I think there's a lot here beyond maybe toxicity that is worth exploring. And I think it seems like there could be toxic elements with the overworking, which are maybe cultural things to that company that you just simply can't change. But I, I do love your advice on maybe talk to your teammates and see how everybody is feeling so that maybe we can raise this issue with leadership together. But at the same time, I think there's a whole other set of things here that sound to me like this person has legitimately good reason to quit in a very non-loud, non-quiet, like neither of those things type of way, right? Because they just need to do what's best for their health and what's best for them to like literally feed their soul with something that's interesting. And fun to do rather than how they described, you know, their current role. So it feels like maybe what I'm reading into in this post is like a lot of anxiety about what comes next. Yes, which is fair because it's, it's hard to make that leap, especially if you don't have something lined up. But sticking it out, uh, like, I don't know, are you doing more harm in the long run? By doing—

no, I, I love that point you make too, because I think it would go to another thought in my head here, right? Because like what you're describing is like there are a lot of joining factors here that are within this person's control. And that'd be the first thing I say is like focus on what's within your control, whether it's like there's corporate drama and you're like sick of the politics or whatever. And like some people get really overwhelmed with that, or like they're really annoyed with like something that's not going the way they want, or there's a million things that can happen that lead to, you know, burnout. And to your point, being in a role that you're unhappy with, right? Figuring out what's within your control. It is within your control to find something, right? Actively thinking about what is going to make you happy. And I think, right, like sticking it out is a very passive position to take when you're unhappy. And it's very hard to motivate yourself when you're in that rut. So I do think like figuring out how to make space to mark that next move and to find out who can you talk to that's going to kind of rejuvenate and energize you to start thinking about a future that looks a lot happier for you. Like to your point, like maybe you just go back to being a developer, but as we know, like, and it's easy for us to say this, right? In theory, because we don't know what this person's financial responsibilities are, right? Maybe they're saying they get paid well. And maybe they got an increase by taking a pro— maybe they're a manager and they're like, this stuff sucks. You know what I mean? Like being a manager from an IC is very challenging, or maybe they're PM or whatever. And that switch might be cool at first, but then you're like, and you want the pay bump or whatever, and you're like, ew, this is not for me. I do think like making sure you're like making a change is the right move. And sometimes even just having like a fresh perspective that's out of the rut is gonna be better. So I think. First step is acknowledging there needs to be a change and then figuring out, like, literally listing all of the possible things you could possibly do to get yourself to improve your situation. And just focusing on what's within your control is the only thing that you can do. And then once you find out what you can control, you realize that you have more power than you think. So yeah, I would— that's what I would recommend is literally sit there, list all the things that are making you de-energizing and demotivating you, and what are all the possible things you could do about it? And then just start checking off that list. Start with the small things and lead yourself up to the big things, right? That might be the best. Maybe it's too hard for you to like look for a job right now, but maybe what you can do is start being like, I'm blocking off times on my Thursdays, or I'm gonna start talking to this other team that has a developer opening, and I'm gonna start talking that, like, maybe there's different options there that'll get that ball rolling. And then eventually you get to where you need to be. But the one thing you can't do, to your point, is just sit there and just eat it. Don't do that. That's the only thing. Anything that is different and a change and just continuing to do that is going to get you out of it. So I know it's really hard out there for a lot of people. We actually, at Jellyfish, we did a report. I've sent this to you. You've probably read it. So we did a survey with hundreds of engineers, engineering leaders, and it was reported 65% of them had experienced burnout in the past year. And not only that, but engineers specifically, 34% didn't feel like they had a potential for advancement in their current role, and 32% are considering a career change.

Whoa.

Yes. So it's, there's a very, it's very pertinent right now. Like, it's very, like, people are feeling this. This is not a novel thing that people are feeling. This is pretty consistent across the industry. And so I also think that it's on the top of mind of leaders right now to actually deal with this problem. And so we know like developer experience is taking off and has like a more resurgence, like this isn't a new topic or anything, but it's very relevant right now because productivity is like going down. People are, and then there's just like layoffs happening. There's just like a lot happening and companies are kind of a hot mess trying to figure out this problem. And so there's a desire now to start thinking about this stuff because it's also in the best interest for companies. And so there might actually be an opportunity here to address these things. It all depends on like the, navigation of your specific company, of how that works? Obviously, like a FAANG company versus a startup, it's gonna be very different on how to navigate these problems. I feel for this person because I think this is very common.

Yes. And I think we ask this question a lot, but, you know, has this person tried to talk to their leadership team or their direct manager about what they're experiencing? It's very possible that that person has, you know, some of this data on their radar, right? They are thinking about, burnout, they're thinking about their direct reports and how, you know, they wanna be at, you know, stages X, Y, and Z. How can I, as their manager, help them get there? Like, ideally they are thinking about those things, right? But yeah, I mean, I think everybody has a job to do in this situation.

Yeah.

Both on the leadership side, on the company side, to incentivize their managers to care about those things, and also on the employee side to talk about what they're experiencing. Like, I think everybody needs to lay it out on the table. 60-hour work weeks consistently for 3 years. Of course you're gonna burn out. And it's probably not just this person. And so I hope that that's obvious, but you, we don't know, right? It could just be, well, this is the culture at this company. And there's probably a lot of new people who show up and they're ready to do that. But people who have been there for 3 years, like, check in on those people, see how they're doing, you know? But when it comes to quitting and like how you actually go about doing that, I think there's sort of two camps here, which we've already talked about— quietly versus loudly. There's more camps than that. There's something in between, which is think about what you need first.

Mm-hmm.

And prioritize that. This is your life. Yes. Time is precious. Time is all we have. Think about what you need. I loved your advice on thinking about what's also in your control, but don't go beyond that. It's not your job to fix this company. So quit in a way that makes sense for you while that's still respectful. If you feel like you think you can make an impact by giving the feedback of explicitly, I am burnt out because I've been working 60-hour work weeks for 3 years, then do that. But also, if that doesn't feel right for you, just go on your way. You don't owe them that information. And over time, if enough people burn out, they'll learn that anyway. And it's kind of on them if they're learning that too late.

Completely agree. Or, or, or ban. Just hire a band. Yeah. Or marginally. Or light everything on fire.

And with that, I think I'm going to loudly quit this conversation.

Thanks for listening to Off the VPN.

If you have any juicy tech stories or some burning questions that need answering, visit jellyfish.co/offthevpn to share them with us.

We want to spill them on Off the VPN. And don't worry, we'll keep it on the DL.