Some teams can't be saved

Start by trying to be the change you want to see. Some people won't receive it.

Or give them, give them a common enemy. Say, hey, we're gonna reduce your pay by 20% because you guys are using, uh, Copilot. So if you give them a common enemy, they'll all band together against management and then you can undo the thing and then they'll all be good again. Yeah.

You're listening to Off the VPN, the show where two work besties get real about working in tech.

What's up, Allison? How you doing today?

Honestly, I feel like I'm going to need a lot of water to get through this today. My throat kind of hurts. It's like allergy season. I'm sorry, I'm diving right in. How are you?

Honestly? No, I was going to say I relate to that because I feel like I just every morning I'm like, yeah, it's like, look, you can hear it. I sound disgusting. So there's nothing I could do. Every day is pain. Every day is just pain. I wake up. And my, my whole— but you know what's so funny? I'm doing all this complaining and I did not take my allergy pill. So whose fault is this?

You have no right. You have no right.

You're right. I won't complain when I sniffle for the rest of the, the, the, the few, the next hour.

Jasmine, do you know what we're talking about today?

I have a confession. You know when you do like a group project with somebody and then there's always that one person who did all the work? Allison did all the work for this episode. I vaguely know what we're going to talk about. Something around team dynamic. We got some stories around some toxic teams and some people who have these deep-seated— All right, I didn't actually read it. I don't actually know. Okay, that was close.

Was that good? All right, that was like, if you read the Cliff Notes, you could maybe pass the quiz the next day after the mandatory assigned reading.

So that was okay.

Yeah, we'll pass you, we'll pass you. But you're, you're right, we're going to talk about some toxic team environments. Have you ever experienced somebody leaving you on read at work?

I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, I have. And I've also been the person who's left someone on read. I think it's like a— I can't like be mad. That's why I don't really get mad when I get left on read, because you've done it. I have done that. I think sometimes you're juggling a lot of things. There's just periods of time where You know, you are not able to answer promptly. So yeah, I give like grace to people who are, who, who that happens to because I empathize with it. Although I used to not, because I used to be very on my Zoom, like I would answer everything and now I'm like a lot more like accepting of you don't always have to be perfect and get to everything all the time. But I do think it's respectful to try to get back to people.

Um, when you—

hard agree.

Hard agree. But yeah, we have a story here where we'll try and figure out if someone is being ignored by everybody on purpose.

Everybody?

The whole team potentially? Wait.

We'll get into it.

We'll get into it.

That hasn't happened. Yo, imagine being ignored by everybody is crazy.

I would just like go to the largest Slack channel, like @general and be like, @here, like, do I exist? Like, somebody please tell me if I am real because no one's answering me. Okay, so we'll get into that. That's like one side of team dynamics, like maybe capital T toxic, like people just not communicating and like on purpose leaving you out. And then on the other side, we have a story about a company who like loves to do a lot of things together. Team activities, team building, trust fall life, that type of thing. So it's like very different opposite side and, uh, we'll get into it. We'll get into it. But. On the team dynamic stuff, I wanna hear if you have like one or two things that you think are required for a healthy, good team dynamic, or on the flip side.

Yeah, I think when it comes to a team, like communication is obviously like first and foremost so important, but, uh, trust, right? I think trust is so important. It's something that can be broken and really hard to heal. And it's something that can also be very resilient if you build it up and you take a good amount of time to like really be intentional at building that trust. But if they're like all buddy buddies or something, like you might lose that ability to challenge, right? So I think that's why we work really well, for example, where I think that we have a lot of trust. I can kind of say something and you trust like where I'm coming from, but I think you're also the first one to be like, Jasmine, what, what are you doing? Or, hey, I don't agree with you. And like that I think is such an important like part of being a good team, having good, like anything. Like I think this is just like a really important work dynamic.

Yeah, I completely agree. The ability to challenge ideas is super important. And yeah, I think we've been able to do that over the years by just like honestly kind of testing the boundaries with one another. And then knowing that the person receiving it, it's just once you have that the first time and the person receiving it is like, oh, wow, I actually didn't think about it that way. Thank you for letting me know. It's like, that's how you build the trust. And so then it becomes easier and easier to do it over time in such a way that, yes, now we can just be like, yo, what on earth are you doing? I love when you call me out on things like that because I'm like, you're right. You're right. You're absolutely correct.

I'm like, yo, why didn't you answer my DM?

No, but it's like, it's actually so pleasant to be able to work in that environment of like super high trust with you because it just, it literally makes us more efficient. I don't have to play these games of like, well, what does Jasmine really mean when she says, like, you're just saying it how it is, you know? And I love that. It's very special if you can get that dynamic with someone. Are you, are you ready for story number 1?

I, I am. I'm ready for the tea. Let's go.

Okay, here we go. The title of the post is Team is dot, dot, dot ignoring me. This is definitely a new experience for me. I recently joined a team with some pretty obvious operational issues, issues that could seriously impact the business. There are monthly reports outlining the root causes of critical failures. Here's the strange part. No one seems interested in fixing it. And it's not just that, they won't even answer questions about the product. Teammates dodge messages and calls, skip meetings without a heads up, and generally refuse to help me help them. They hold on to key information unless my manager steps in and tells them to take my request seriously. I don't get access to documents unless I say, "Your manager wants you to share that document with me." What? There's constant finger pointing too. Instead of saying the X system is having issues, they say X person's changes are causing issues. And believe it or not, even express their disappointment publicly in the chat.

Wait, what? So you're saying, wait, wait, just to rewind what you just said. So they're all like, they're like, nah, this is— this documentation's trash because of, you know, this guy or this girl. And then they're like this, and then they publicly shame when something goes wrong. That is wild. No wonder why they would— they're not getting help. It's probably— it's, it's every person for themselves.

It's funny you say that. I'm sorry, I feel like I need to say I'm literally only laughing because I'm so uncomfortable by this. Like, the idea that like people at this company are being like, @jasminescode sucks. Someone needs to fix her bugs. Like, that's wild. Okay. Oh, it's funny that you say that.

We should do an experiment here. You should do that to me like today and then just see like how people respond. We should see. It's just a prank.

Yeah.

I bet you people would not respond well to that. They'd be like, wait.

Well, yes, but also I think that they wouldn't take us seriously.

Oh, that's funny. Yeah, this is not a good experiment. You're right, they would know. Be like, they probably think it was funny. Yeah, yeah, because they know we're just teasing.

Yeah, man.

All right, I have to take it back. Okay.

All right, so I joined the team because my skip-level manager thought the team needed my help, but this is way more difficult than I expected. I can't really help people who don't seem to respect my time, or each other for that matter. Before I jump to conclusions and write this off as an everyone-for-themselves culture, is there something I might be missing? I know people are busy, but I've never been in a situation where people are actively avoiding me. It's a pretty weird experience, and I'm not sure how to bring this up with my manager in a productive way. Right now, my take is just that the team dynamic is plain toxic, and I don't know how to fix it if they don't want to. My manager seems just as puzzled. He hinted at some of these issues before, but I think he wanted me to get my own read on things first.

So the manager's hip that this is like a thing already.

Manager seems to know what's up.

So if that's true, like, let's not gaslight ourselves into thinking like, oh, maybe I'm not seeing something. No, I think you're seeing it. You're seeing the you might not understand like where it's coming from, but you definitely see the, the results of it.

I have a super hot take on this one.

Let's, let's hear it. I want to hear it.

Maybe it's not that hot.

Okay.

If this is truly the situation, because again, we always take these with a grain of salt, but if this is truly the situation, we need to, we need to split this team up. Like, this is not— I don't think we're recovering from this. Once you get to this point of like, so-and-so's code is bad, expressing disappointment publicly, like, it's just like, we are clearly like now maybe out to get each other. I don't know how you come back from this. Like, a lot of things had to go wrong to get to this point. And I think it's really hard, speaking of building up trust, to undo what has been done here. It's not that I'm saying it's impossible. I just think for the sake of like everybody moving on, for the sake of the business, first statement, issues that could seriously impact the business, for the sake of everyone's mental health, I'm like, let's not even try and work through this. Let's just find a way to create like a different team out of, you know, the set of people that we have.

I do agree to a degree with a caveat or like an extra step, I think, in there. Like, I think you do risk spreading this in a way, like whatever, like these cultural phenomenon that's happening here or these like kind of toxicity. If you just split up the team, you might not be solving the problem. So I do think like there's like a retrospective to be had. This manager needs to do a full, like, archaeological dig on, like, the, the dynamics here and, like, what's really going on. So I think, like, there, there's a lot of things. I mean, it could also be like, what if this team is working really well, just not with this one person? Like, we don't, we don't know. Like, I just think that there needs to be a lot more understanding and some degree of fixing before we split it up. Like, I do think there needs to be some improvements and then probably, like, All right, now we can split it up, try some new things. But I think until it's like recognized that there's a problem and like some effort is put, like you can't just like split up the team cuz you're just gonna be spreading the problem into two different teams.

No, you're for sure right. We should talk about what's toxic and bad and not working here. Yes, I agree. That's a very important thing to like slot into the, into the middle of what I said. But then I think it's like, okay, give people the opportunity to do better. Elsewhere, and then maybe they embed in a, like a different culture and like they see how other things work and like, it's like take the learnings from what went wrong and also learn from how other people work. Yeah, this is, this is rough.

Yeah. I mean, it, it sounds like something drastic needs to happen. Like it might even be like an HR thing, like at this point, right? Like if this is like that bad, not everybody likes the H word cuz it also depends on what company you're in. Like everyone has different, like. Feelings about it, but I do think when it gets to this point, I agree with the drastic. I don't know about splitting up the team because it could be like maybe there's a bad actor on the team that has like completely like just messed up people's motivation. Like maybe that person just needs to be, needs to exit the company. Like there's a lot of like information we don't have, but I agree with the drastic. I think one of the things could be just splitting folks up, but it might be more than that. There might be some other stuff going on. It could also be like, what if they all like, could be the manager, maybe the manager and they don't realize it yet, but actually everyone just like doesn't trust that manager. And this person also, I was thinking, I was picking up on the, like, I have to ask my manager to get them to respond. Like, it's possible that like the fact that you had to do that makes you look kind of like an op, you know what I mean? Like, oh, you had to get your manager to message me. Like now everyone's like, I'm not saying that it's okay to react that way. But it's possible, like, yeah, if you're calling up your manager and like, hey, can you answer my DM? Like, that's gonna like escalate the situation, right? So I, I, it is hard to say.

I also narrowed in on, on that specifically. Like teammates dodge messages and calls, skip meetings without a heads up, and generally refuse to help me help them. And then it's the line about like bringing in the manager. One thing to question here, cuz again, we don't know, we're not there, is like, how many times has this happened? Did you try addressing it with the, with the people individually first before, to your point, bringing in the manager, which I think immediately just feels like an escalation, immediately feels like, oh, you have to get management involved. Like that sucks.

I don't know. It's hard to say. I feel like there's not a lot of information here, but I would, I, I, to take what you're saying, like I think if I were to say I was in this situation myself. I think the, whether I was managing or if I was even the IC, I would tell the IC to do this actually, is like, you pick a person and literally just like try to hash it out and see what's happening. Cuz you might be unaware of your own behaviors as well, right? Like you might be contributing to this in some way, and I think that the longer you go without addressing problems with your team, the longer they become like this, like this, like monster that just like constantly just starts to— it is this projection of who each other are. And like there's greater distance between you and your teammates and that kind of like you start to create this image of people and what things are. And like closing that gap quickly is the best— is your best bet. And then if you haven't closed the gap, you're gonna have to do a lot of digging and work to like, kind of like get yourself out of that hole because yeah. So I would like address it, literally befriend a person or try to like say, like, understand what's up. Like, hey, can we just talk like for real? Like what's going on with this place? Like, I don't know what's up. Like I be very vulnerable. I know that's like not easy. It might go to go bad and they might be like, actually I don't wanna talk to you. They might dodge you, but I think like most humans are. Receptive to that and like they'll give you their two cents. Not everyone is gonna be completely honest. Some people might be mean, you never know. But I think that's really all that's in your control is to try to like connect with your teammates.

Yeah, I really like that. Just starting with a single person, maybe who you have a little bit of trust with, or maybe you don't. It's just someone who feels the most approachable and then just sort of opening up and being honest, like. I mean, I think the system X is having issues. Like instead of saying that, the fact that people say X person's changes are causing issues, I feel like that's a perfect entry point. If you see something like that to just pull like maybe another person on the team aside and be like, I just wanna be honest with you. Like I've never seen this type of like messaging before. It's really interesting to me. Normally I'm used to this other framing, like we're all one team, we all built the system together, right? So I would just love to hear like where this is coming from, or like how long this has been going, right? Just like ask questions. I really think that's, that's a good idea. It's interesting though that this person was brought in by the skip-level manager thinking that they could solve some of the problems, like the team needed their help. And yet this person, the author of this post, is still unsure how to bring this up to their manager. In a productive way. And I'm like, it sounds like we've all acknowledged there's a problem. So why is there that hesitancy to bring it up with their manager? I feel like you might be on to something about like maybe the manager is playing a bigger role here than we, than we know.

I mean, it's their job to make sure this stuff is hap— like, it's their job. I'm not saying it's their fault. It might be.

Who knows?

But like, I think that like, this is their job to make sure this is all working and that everyone is productive here and that everyone's, you know what I mean? Like, this is literally like in your, in your job. So I, I don't know.

Yeah, this one's, this one's hard, I feel like, to, to navigate.

But this makes me feel for like people that I talk to that like really just don't have I don't wanna say good managers. I hate saying that, but like a manager who— people who are struggling in their management position or not like doing well or whatever, because I think this is like an example where it's like this person's more focused on the team dynamics than actually getting the work done. And like, this is just, again, a business risk, but you know, the manager's getting paid to, to do this stuff. And, um, it's just unfortunate. And like, if you feel like you can't go to your manager and talk to them about these things, like it just, it really is unfortunate. And I do think at this point, like you kind of need to like, again, take what's in your control and try your best to just be honest. And I think that being like, I don't wanna say be the change you wanna see, but it is right. Be like, hey, it's the system. Small little corrections might be good. Like try to be the change within your sphere. Work on your relationship with your teammates. Don't try to think about the whole team dynamic itself. Just be the person who is cool with your teammates and like can talk to them. They do trust you. Like try to go out of your way to help them. And I know it says like they tried, but like, I think like finding ways to connect with them on a person level as well can help to, to this. But sometimes it's outta your control. Sometimes maybe there is nothing they can do. I don't wanna like. It's not their fault and there's maybe some things you can do, but I think there's some things they can try to your point. Try.

Yes. That, that little correction of like if someone put that message, X person's changes are causing issue and issues in like a public forum, a really small, easy correction is just like reply in thread. Hey, can we try reframing this as like system what so-and-so is is breaking right now. Just like set the example, try to set the example and see what happens. To your point, it still might all not work out and we might need to just like disband this whole team. Yes. Rip everybody apart. My drastic first reaction, I'm like, everybody, everybody's the opposite side.

Everybody out.

Yeah. Not out, just go, go elsewhere. Let's learn from this and hang out with some new people, but Yeah, I love that. Just start by trying to be the change you want to see. Some people won't receive it.

Give them a common enemy. Say, hey, we're going to reduce your pay by 20% because you guys are using Copilot. So if you give them a common enemy, they'll all band together against management, and then you can undo the thing, and then they'll all be good again.

Yeah.

Wow.

That is some psychotic tactic that you just dropped casually there.

The way my mind works is, oh, I'm scared of you in that moment.

Terrified.

But if it works, I love it.

All right, now I have a different story for you. Almost maybe on the opposite side of the spectrum here as far as team dynamics go. But our author is not super pleased about it. So the title of this post is, Am I the Asshole for Not Wanting to Participate in My Company's Mandatory Team Building Activities?

Wait, mandatory?

They said mandatory.

Is it during workout? I have so many questions because there's like a line between team building and like extracurricular stuff, and one is legal. I don't know if the other one is. One is not legal. 911 after this. Okay. 911. I don't know about 911.

I'm kidding. Please nobody call 911 over reading posts.

911, I'm being, I'm being asked to come to the office again. Please help me.

I don't want to do more trust falls, please. No, please use 911.

I would No, I would easily say no. There's no way. I'm not— don't— no.

I can't even think of what we— like, anyone would have to do to make you do that, you know what I mean? Like, you would just be like, no.

There's no way. Like, that's— it's a physical thing. Like, I'd be like, don't— what? Like, no, you're not— no. I'm like picturing this. No. You guys could do that. If you love that, I love that for you. But for me, I'm gonna sit over here.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna see myself out. Okay. So this person writes, I've been grappling with this dilemma at work lately because my company's been pushing these mandatory team building activities. And honestly, I'm just not feeling it. I get that they're trying to foster a sense of unity and all that jazz, but these activities feel forced and awkward. The last thing I want after a long day is to be roped into trust falls or mandatory after hours events. I've tried to explain my reservations to my boss, but they're pretty adamant about everyone participating. It's starting to feel like my autonomy is being overlooked in favor of this one-size-fits-all approach to team building. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for bonding with colleagues, but shouldn't it be more organic, like grabbing lunch together or chatting over a coffee break? Am I being unreasonable here? I don't want to come off as antisocial, but I value my downtime outside of work too. Has anyone else dealt with this? How did you handle it without rocking the boat too much?

So I am positive. Let's start with, I am positive that from training I've had to do, or just things I've seen is like you, there's, I don't know if it's not legal, but I think it could be considered harassment if you are like forcing someone or pushing someone to go to after hours, non-work things.

So one thing is that they don't say where this is. So it's possible this is not in the US where, ah, that's probably what you're citing, but I don't know. It could be true, but okay.

Even, even if so, I still think it's like, it's not, it's not work. It should not be. So if it's in the US, there might even be like an HR violation type thing happening here, but then there's also just like, This is not what I'm getting paid to do. You know? So I, I do think like pressuring people into like these social situations is just inappropriate altogether. And I'm like, if I was managing this person and I was like, hey, here's the thing. Like I would more be curious about their reasons and like why they didn't wanna go so that I made sure that they felt welcomed. And it wasn't something where it was like they didn't wanna go because they're like, honestly, it's just not my, it's just not my. Thing, okay, yeah, that's fine. But as long as there's not like a, oh, there's someone there that's gonna— I don't know, I'm making up a situation— bully me, or, or I feel uncomfortable and I don't feel safe in my work environment. Like, as long as it's nothing like that, in which case I would talk more about it.

I just—

as long as they feel welcomed and they're like, no, I know I'm welcomed, I just don't want to go, it's like, okay. I think it's wrong to pressure someone into work social situations. That's just— it's very inappropriate.

Yeah. If not flat out just wrong, because I mean, there are tons of things that all of us do outside of work. And I'm thinking particularly about people who have like non-negotiable obligations outside of work hours, like things to do with their children, things to do with taking care of a family member or like elderly parents or whatever it is, like, are those people who have those, again, non-negotiable obligations, like, at risk of something working at this company, losing their job, not having the same relationships, not being seen as like a team player, like, and that to me is what makes it like super effed. Like, we cannot be doing this. Find a way to do this shit during work hours while your people are getting paid, while they've already sort of signed up for that commitment.

Yeah, I, I agree. And, and I, I also think like to add to your, like you're saying, people who have like commitments, like there are people who have like sensory issues or anxiety, like social anxiety. I don't think it's appropriate to force them into these situations. And I think it's important to make, if you do want to kind of create and foster like team synergy or whatever. Like, I think making it accessible and making people feel welcomed is a better outcome, right? Like, you want people to feel like they're seen and understood in their work environment, and that's more important than trying to be like, here, you and you, like, we're all friends, like, everybody, you know. Yeah, I just don't think that's how that works. Everyone's shaped differently. I think creating community for those who want to plug into it is important. But I think people who are okay with like, I mean, I'm someone we know that we know you didn't talk about this like that. Like, I am really grateful for kind of how folks are with where I work, where people know I'm like, I'm probably going to not be in the social situation all day. I'm going home and like, I have no reason. I mean, I'm a cat, I guess. But like, I just for me, like, I like my boundaries. But once in a while I'm like, yeah, I'd love to like go and hang out and do a thing like when I have the time or the energy or whatever, like And I think having the flexibility actually makes me more present when I come. I'm not showing up like, oh, I hate it. I don't wanna be here. Like, I don't think that that's like a good, good place to be. And I think actually that creates a better environment for people to feel like they can show up as they are. Why would you want like a group of 20 people showing up somewhere that are like, I hate it. My boss made me come here.

Like, No, that, that's the last thing. I get from this post that maybe, and they didn't say this explicitly, but maybe that they're feeling like they're the only one. Because I don't, I don't know. And I probably shouldn't assume that, but they mentioned like, they're trying to foster a sense of community and all that jazz, but these activities feel forced and awkward. Like, they, I don't know, maybe they're alone in that, but maybe there's a bunch of people who are like, yo, what are we doing? I would hope that's the case, but yeah, I totally agree. Like, having the option is important, but also making that option at a time that is accessible and convenient is even more important. And this person is absolutely not the asshole for— I would love to hear someone who's like, yeah, they are. I would love to hear what that opinion is because that would just be so like, I can't even, I can't even think of a justification for that.

Yeah. I mean, I think like this is the, the one who doing the pressuring, right? Like you have to go to this or you're gonna miss out. Like I think that that person needs to do some reflection on accessibility and like making sure everyone has an equal shot, not because you showed up for like happy hour. I just don't think that I, I'm, I know this isn't happy hour, but like the trust fall stuff, like, I don't know. I do think there's like some encouragement, like I get it, but there's a line between encouragement and like pressure. And I think like being cognizant of that. I do say for this person, and I feel like this is always my advice, but I do think like bringing ideas to the table of what would be a better alternative might also help. You know, like, hey, I think that this might be more successful, or hey, I don't know if you've thought about this, but trust fall exercises might be inappropriate. Like, maybe you don't want your co-workers touching you. Like, like, I don't know, like, some people are huggers, and I'm like, nah. Like, you know what I mean? And like, I'm like, it's cool, you know? And like, everyone's different. Some people are like, oh my gosh, you know? Like, but it's your boundaries that are being like, you know, uh, put into these situation. So it's like, there might be just like, flag these things and do your best to, but I also think like setting your boundaries is reasonable. Like I, I don't think push yourself and let yourself be pressured into these situations if you don't think they're appropriate. But I also think there's a line, like, like say they're just doing like, I don't know, like it's not trust fall, but it's just like, hey, we're gonna do our like personality things and we're gonna talk about team dynamics. Like, Yeah, maybe don't skip out on certain things, especially if it's during work hours. So I do think like understanding there's value in some of these things. There's a line, like I, I, I do think making these accessible, but also seeing the value in some of these. If you think they suck, just say why you think they suck and what could be better.

Yeah. And to your point, this person already in this post offered other suggestions like, shouldn't it be more organic? Like grabbing lunch together, chatting over a coffee break. So they have ideas for how to like do this without it being mandatory and after work. So is there a way that you can like push those ideas forth, make them happen and work in mandatory? Yeah.

Every time you say that, it just like grosses me out.

I wonder if it's not actually mandatory at like, like if you don't show up to this, you're gonna be fired. I, I feel like it's probably like. We're doing this after hours and there's just like a cultural, it would be like a, a cultural like faux pas to not show up. Mm. You know, like I feel like it's like all in the pressure.

Be the change you wanna see.

Yeah.

So if you do it, other people will be like, well, I see they're doing it, I'm gonna do it.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, not the asshole. Really, no, really actually like support this person, would go to bat for them if they wanted me to. So, uh, I have a question for you.

Would you rather be on a team that completely ignores you or would you rather be on one that just wants to keep doing trust fall exercises every other week?

Okay. Keeping everything else all equal. So like assuming that the work is like impactful, meaningful, like doing something.

Okay.

Okay. Keeping everything else equal. I would pick, I would pick the, I would pick the team that wants to do trust falls because I have learned how to set my own boundaries and respectfully don't care if other people are upset by that. Sorry. Like I, I'd just be like, y'all have fun. I won't be participating in that.

Yeah, I, I'm, I'm on the same page as you, but I would hate it.

Yeah.

Because I know I'd try it at least once just to be like, all right, sure.

You know what we would actually do though in practice?

What?

Just knowing us and how we work, like the second that someone was like, we're gonna do trust falls, we would be like, no, back to the, back to the drawing board. Let's, we would like, let's find some other, other options. Like we would immediately like interject and be like, we're gonna, we're not gonna do that. We won't be doing that. We're gonna find something. That's very true.

We would, we would be catalysts for some change and we wouldn't just like escape the thing. Um, yeah. But I feel like if like 90% of the everyone wanted to do it, like I wouldn't wanna change it. I would just say, hey you guys, I love that for you, but I'm gonna do something. I don't, I'm gonna escape. Oh, I can tell. I would ask, I'd be like, does everybody wanna do trust falls? And everyone's like, oh my God, trust falls are the best. I would be like, okay, well you do that. Love that for you. I'm gonna not.

I mean, has anyone done a scientific study? Do trust falls lead to healthy team dynamics and synergy? I'd love to know if anyone has any data.

Like, there's just so many elements of that that I just, I, I, it just screams no for me. It's a no dog.

No, it's an absolute, it's an absolute no. Well, thankfully we don't have to do that. No. And even if somebody was trying to make us do it, we wouldn't do it.

I absolutely wouldn't. Please.

I'm with this person. I'm with this person on this post.

Okay.

All right. Well, we made it through this episode without coughing or sneezing or sniffling as far as I know.

Well, I'll watch the back the tapes.

We'll see.

Whoever sniffles first owes the other person a drink.

Or coffee. Or whoever sniffles first has to do all the homework and planning for the next episode.

Ew. No, no, no. I did it like to— I did other homework, just not homework work for this episode.

That's fine.

All right, so, so don't, don't, don't try it. No, I'm just kidding.

All right, well, this has been lovely. I'll talk to you on the interweb.

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