Catching Up With Dave Jackson - It's Been A Long Year

It is the podcast report and has been way too long. My friend and podcast coach Dave Jackson texts me and says, you know, Paul, it's been a year. And Dave was right. And I figured the only legitimate, the only real, the only honest way to relaunch the podcast report would be a catch up with Dave. So, Dave, how you doing, buddy?

Good, man. It's nice to hear your voice.

It's nice to hear your voice. It has been a long time. For those of you who don't know who Dave Jackson is, and there are like two or three somewhere. Dave, just give a 30 seconds about who you are and what it is that you do.

Dave Jackson, I run the school of podcasting and for fun, I work for Libsyn.

And what, what do you do in the Libsyn division?

I am the part of the tech support team. So when you say, hey, I just published my show and I don't see it in Apple, I'm the guy that answers that ticket.

And for my clients when I say, I got a guy at Libsyn, meet Dave. So anyway, and Rob. And Rob and Elsie and everybody else, but still. So, Dave, it's been a year for podcasting. What do you think the number one story of the year is? Let's just pretend it's the end of 2020 and we're talking between August 1st of last year and today. What's the number one story in podcasting?

It's one word. It's Spotify.

And how so?

Because every time you turn around, they just bought somebody else. Two people that I've never heard of, but when you see the actor, you go, oh, that guy. They just keep buying more stuff. And I understand, or at least I hope so, that somehow they're making some profit somewhere because they're, they're spending lots of money on lots of things, whether it's gimlet or anchor or. I'm trying to think of the last thing they just bought. The, the sports guy, Bill Simmons.

They keep buying stuff. Yep.

Yeah. And every time you turn it, I'm like going, okay, but they are making money somewhere. Right. So that's, it's just interesting. And now. And of course, there's that, that one guy, what's his name? Joe something. Yeah, they, they gave him, they gave him a. Lots of money to not be on YouTube and things like that. So that's going to be fun to watch. That was another one. That was a lot of money. And every time you turn, like I said, I don't know who it's. It's so and so and so and so. And every time you turn around, Spotify is giving somebody lots of money to produce content on their stuff to which Apple has announced. Oh, we have a show too. They're starting some sort of Apple only thing. So people are starting to wall off the gardens thinking that will work. Meanwhile, Luminary is bleeding money and almost, you know, there, there are, there are people that are jumping off that ship as we speak.

So, but speak to Luminary because a lot of people know Spotify because they think that's what their kids listen to. But, but for those who don't know what's Luminary?

Dave yeah, Luminary was an app that first of all came out in a very, some, let's put it this way, some people took it as condescending, kind of like, hey, we are here now and we have all these big shot smarty pants people. The guy from the Daily show, although he has his own free podcast, and the British guy that's real funny and he looks like Jesus, I forget his name. He had a podcast, bunch of other like names. And at first I thought, oh, this is going to be interesting because it sounded like it was going to be an app with about seven podcasts in it, so you don't have to worry about finding them. There's only seven. And I thought this would be interesting to watch. But instead they brought everybody's podcast in and it's, I want to say it was originally $8 a month, $7 a month, something like that, it wasn't a ton. But when there are, I don't know, 800,000 other shows to listen to for free, unless that's a really, really good show. Not everybody was scrambling to pay Luminary for this. And from what I've heard from different shows, they are bleeding money like nobody's business. And been at, I know at least one, I want to say two shows that apparently their contract is up and they're kind of like, hey, this whole thing where, you know, you, you gave us a really big check, which was nice. But in the meantime, nobody's listening to our stuff because nobody's signing up. They are jumping ships. So it's going to be interesting to, to see because that is a, an idea, that's a strategy of we're going to make a walled garden with really big names. That one didn't work. So either the names weren't big enough or somebody said, Trevor Noah, the guy from the Daily show, he has a show on there, but he also has A show that's not on Luminary. Well, okay, so if I can get Trevor Noah for free.

Right.

Why would I pay 8 bucks unless he's doing something really, really brilliant there? So.

Well, whenever. I've always said, don't count on the crazy money, but if somebody writes you the check, cash it.

Exactly.

So. So good. Good on Trevor. Good on, you know. You know, and even Mr. Rogan himself, like, I don't blame him for cashing that check. But. But. But what's interesting here is Spotify gets the attention. Yes. Spotify gets the lip service and the press. And I'm sure you've been contacted, like I have, by these advisors who are trying to figure out where the money is and all this. And so you get to do that consulting and, you know, that kind of stuff. But. But what's. But the thing is, is, is it going to affect podcasting at all? And it's funny because I remember a while ago when another popular, loud white guy who offended a lot of people left the format that everybody got to the paid format. Howard Stern, you know, everybody thought it was going to be the end of radio, and it was going to be Sirius xm. And your Sirius XM Monthly bill is what, Dave, Actually.

And after being gone for many years, I. I just resubscribed. So it's 15 bucks.

Okay, so Dave's paying. So Dave Jackson doesn't mind paying for audio.

Now ask me how much I listen.

Well, it doesn't matter, really. You know, when it comes down to it, Dave Jackson doesn't mind paying for audio. Do you have a music subscription?

Yeah, I pay for Spotify. So there's. There's how they're paying for Joe Rogan.

Right, Exactly. So. So the fact of the matter is people pay for audio. That's not the question. Audible has been around forever. I've known Don over at audible since 2000. That's a whole nother story. They've been getting people to pay for audio. You know, Mignon Fogarty, Grammar Girl, when they took her podcast, they made an audio book at Audible. It was the number one book at Audible for, like, three months. So people will pay for audio. So this idea, the people pay for audio, isn't the right idea. The question is, will people pay for podcasts? Now, I remember I was 7 years old. I remember it clearly. I went over to Darryl's house. My buddy Darryl Darrell always had the cool toys and the cool things. And you know what Darrell told me? There was this thing they had called Hibo and hibo was this special TV that didn't have commercials. And that struck me as really weird. But hbo. HBO had movies, Dave. And this is before VCR is and before that kind of stuff. And it was like. And I went over to Darryl's house and I watched King Kong. The same King Kong that we had paid money to go see the movie theater. I saw the Daryl's house, you know, and not. Not. Yeah, not hall notes Darryl, but, you know, Darryl Scribbler's house. And. And the funny thing was like, well, how do I do this? What channel is this on? And Darrell looks me, says, you got to pay for it. And I don't pay for tv. That's stupid. Nobody pays for tv. That's why you don't get King Kong. Right. So, you know, a couple years later, I'm now paying a couple years later, you know, from 77 to 2020. A couple years later, you know, I'm paying $65 a month to get my YouTube TV that I could also get if I hook, you know, the majority of the stations, if I just hooked up rabbit ears and, you know, bought a $50 tuner. But so. So paying for content, paying for audio that people do and that you and I do. And all the prognosticators who say that this is a bad thing, they all do. So that's not the problem. The question is, what makes podcasting so special and so weird in this game? Or does it? Or are people just special snowflakes who've gotten their feelings hurt? What's the situation, Dave?

That's a good question. Because the reason I just signed up for Apple plus was I wanted to see the Tom Hanks movie.

Right?

And now that I've seen the Tom Hanks movie and I binge through the morning show, I'm about done with Apple Plus.

I was like, oh, watch for all mankind. That's pretty good. But then, you know that that's one more weekend, and then you're done.

Yeah. So I was kind of like, I don't know what it is. I think it was five bucks, something like that. But I just remember thinking, you know, and I just. Just canceled my HBO now because, you know, here's the fun thing with all this, you know, lovely pandemic stuff. They're not making any new shows.

Yeah.

So I'm waiting for the seasons to come back, and I'm like, oh, you know what? They're not. So I was like, I'm. I'm just noticing that I'm not watching much, and I think Paul, your Netflix special comes out next month, right? Because everybody's getting one. Yeah. And it's like, so it's, it makes. Because on one hand, it reminds me a little bit of music. Like, people used to pay for music.

Right.

You know, at times. But I do now.

I pay for Apple Music.

Yeah. I'm going to say I pay for Spotify. But the, but that's also why concert tickets have gone up, because you used to make, you know, a lot of money on a cd and now you're making, you know, couch cushion change if you have somebody listen to your whole cd. So I wonder if it's a value thing where. Because podcasts are free people. And I mean, in the early days, you mentioned Audible, in the early days of podcasting, they tried. Ricky Gervais had a, A show, and everybody was kind of like, why would I pay for these? So I'm. Well, in.

In episode 14 of the school of Podcasting, you and I talked about my premium cast product.

Yeah.

That made premium podcasting possible. Which, by the way, funny enough, I'm. I'm. I'm looking at relaunching it. That's a whole nother story. But, but, but, yeah, there's a bunch of those now.

They're all coming out of the woodwork.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you know, and then what gets funny is a lot of people are like, the, the, the debaters love to say, you know, if it's not an Apple podcast, it's not a podcast.

Right.

Therefore, what Joe Rogan's doing in January is not a podcast. And that's all fine and dandy in the standing or growing standpoint. But, but, but you know what? I think when Rogan takes the check to the bank to cash, I don't think the teller is going to go, you know, you know that you're not really a podcast. We cannot accept this money.

That's it. Well, and. And that's the other thing that I'm seeing more people that. Again, sticking with that, that now YouTube is a podcast, and technically there's no RSS feed. But I remember many moons ago when I was in marriage counseling, and if your wife thinks that you don't spend enough time with her, it doesn't matter if you can say, but look, I just spent 17 hours straight with you. If she still feels neglected, guess what? She feels neglected. So if, if the audience that's listening thinks YouTube is a podcast, guess what? YouTube's a podcast.

So last year at Podcast Expo, the physical one. Yeah, I remember those mutual Friend of this, you know, Tom Webster chatted about. Did you see that presentation?

I will probably remember when you mentioned.

What was funny was so, so Tom Webster, you know, he runs our VP of Edison do exit polling, US Elections. High integrity firm, high budget firm. They have the ability to do it right. My degree was in political science. I, I did some surveying, polling classes. I know what you're supposed to do and I, I know that, that, that they do it right. They did this thing on newbies versus veterans and, and I. Veterans was like, people been listening to podcasts more than a couple of years. Newbies was less than six months. And it was interesting how they were different and things like, you know, the newbies, a lot of them go to Spotify by default. The veterans were old school Apple, that kind of thing. But what was interesting was, you know, and again, they had the money to do this and you know how it is. You know, you get, you know, the newbie says something, the veteran says something, the newbie says something, the veteran says something. And the veteran kept talking about Dirty John, Dirty John, Dirty John, Dirty John. And then the, the newbie kept talking about Nurse Chris. Nurse Chris, Nurse Chris. This ringing a bell at all? Yeah, you know, and so to spoil, you know, you know, so basically, long story short, this gal, this newbie who loved the Nurse Chris podcast. Nurse Chris, a machine. A machine, A multi million dollar machine. There is no Nurse Chris podcast. This newbie just thought it was, you know, and so, yeah, so if you think it's a podcast, you know it, it is a podcast. I tell the joke about my mom still won't play with Apple because, you know, she thinks it's too complicated. You ask her for subtle buyer one, she says, no, it's too complicated. Yet on her Kindle fire, she has iHeartradio. And I tell mom, I'm on that. And she goes, no, you're not. You're. That's just for radio. And if I try to tell mom that I'm on that, her eyes get big and she goes, you're on radio. You know, like, I finally made it. So that's not it. So why is there, Is there any benefit. Let me ask it this way. Is there any benefit in the industry for the podcasters to be arguing and complaining about whether or not Joe Rogan is really a podcast when he's on Spotify?

Now? I think the only reason that comes up is people are worried, and I'm not quite sure why that if we have enough of these shows that aren't using An RSS feed that RSS will go away. And I don't know that that's something we need to worry about. Like, when we start seeing a lot of. Like when there are still, you know, a million plus that are using an RSS feed and we have four that aren't.

Right.

I'm not. I'm not really sure it's time to ring the panic bell yet.

And this is the podcast report. Many of you are nerds, but many of you are not. RSS is what makes podcasting happen. No rss, no podcast. The best explanation of the problem with Spot, and the thing is, I think what you're saying, Dave, is it's the problem with Spotify, not necessarily the problem with and Spotify's of the world. You know, it's not necessarily the rss. It's what it could do. Merlin, man, who. Who I respect tremendously, got to meet once briefly, Merlin, spoke to Spot. Spotify as. And I thought this was an interesting idea, as if Spotify was Walmart, who goes into a town, spends all the money, does all the flash, builds the big building, runs everybody else out of business, and then decides that that particular store wasn't worth, then leaves the store ghost town. You know, I think the fear was that, you know, Spotify or the big names would do that. And, you know, because if they get all the press, if they get all the attention, I mean, the problem with podcasting, and. Let's chat about the. The Podcast Academy in a minute. You know, the problem podcasting is because it has no champion, you know, because it has no event. I mean, because it has no specific person associated with it. There's no place we can go. The best we can do for podcasting, really is go to an Apple Store and ask how to do it, you know, and they're not even necessarily that great there. You know, somebody wants to own it. Somebody wants, you know, and Spotify wants to act like you're a good podcaster at Spotify. You know, I mean, that makes sense from a marketing standpoint. So Podcast Academy pops up. Dave, Podcast Academy says, we're going to be here for you. We're going to do this. We're going to be the ones. We're going to make this happen. You and I were sitting next to each other when that announcement was made at Podcast Movement. Thoughts on the Academy? Have you joined officially?

I have officially joined. I have seen where they're going to create awards. Okay. And I know they're having some webinars. I did see that. I have yet to. I haven't logged in a bunch. I think I've logged in like two or three times. So shame on me for not really going back to seeing and keeping in touch with what's going on. And I know they've sent out a couple emails, so they're new, they're getting their feet wet. It should be interesting to just. It's another one where I have popped the popcorn. I'm ready to sit back and watch and, and again, if they ask for my opinion or things like that, we shall see. But they.

The biggest difference video that I took illegally of you giving your opinion.

The. The fun thing is there have been two other groups that have tried this. Like we're going to be the independent podcast, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. And it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of money. And those groups did not have either of those and both of them eventually went down the tubes. So this, this group has money. One would assume they have time or at least they have the staff or can buy the staff to, to help. So this one has, at least from an outsider's point of view, more tools to, to get it off the ground and fly. Now where is it going? We're not sure, but. So that's the part that I'm like, well, this should be, you know, again, it's one of those sorts like, well, this could work. Maybe we'll see. You know. And I know they. The current group of leadership, according to Rob Greenlee, who's the chair of some sort of board and he's a voice in there. I want to say it's two years. After two years, you have to leave the board and they vote in more people. So that is not this just group of whoever. So if, if you hate where they're going and things like that. I don't know if I'm assuming I would get to vote who's going in because as a member. Right. That would make sense. So we'll see what happens. You know, they're. Right now they're just trying to still get it off the ground. What are your thoughts on it?

You know, first of all, 50 bucks to join right now. Like I've thrown 50 bucks at far less. You know, I, I do want them to succeed. Yeah, absolutely. I tried to sign up and it was confusing and, and, and, and I'm not the type who, like, it's just the way my mind works and, and you know, probably this is why I've gone to marriage counseling is because my mind works this way. But you know, if there's not clear directions, you know, you know, I, I kind of get trapped and a lot of people like, oh, just click the button until you get to the end. Just join, just don't worry about it kind of thing. But I, I got trapped in, in the nuances of it. And then it's funny because as I've waited, it's become less and less paperwork's involved, you know, and I'm like wondering soon. And like I saw today, there's something like, like you can now give Pod Pod. Who's the guys want to be the IMDb of podcasting.

Pod Chaser.

Pod Chaser, yeah. Apparently you can get pod chaser 50 bucks now and they'll make you a member without having to go through anything. So. So apparently it's getting much easier and I'll probably do it. And you know, for the uninitiated, you know, hey, I'm a member of the podcast academy, lady. Da da da.

You do get a logo to put on your website, right?

You know, but, but again, like I can give you a logo to put on your website, you know, and I'll only charge 25 bucks, you know, Google.

Images, I can get one right now.

Exactly. You know, so. So it's just an interesting, it's an interesting space. So. So Spotify comes up, eats up a bunch of people. Probably we should probably talk about Anchor, you know, and we'll probably have to talk about Anchor through the lens of you do pay some of your bills through a company who charges for what Anchor gives away for free. For those of you not watching the video of this, I put that in air quotes. Let's talk about Anchor. So Anchor got big, Anchor got bought. Anchor's got a lot of attention, right? Anchor. For the uninitiated, Anchor is. The pitch is actually a pretty cool pitch. We want to beat a podcasting what YouTube was online video. Sign up for free, non exclusive. We do everything. Great software, that kind of thing. Great concept. And it's funny because a lot of the things they've done, they've either done out of a evil desire to take over the planet or just out of complete ignorance. And it's funny because they don't understand the way things work. My favorite one, and this is the one that still exists to this time, rss, which we chat about easier. The one of the hearts of RSS is there's an email associated with that and that's how you do your communication things is here's my email address. Well, they own the Email address. And so the big sponsor comes to you, wants to contact you, or somebody wants to. They contact you. It's their email address. And not only is it necessary, we don't necessarily know if it just goes into a big pot somewhere and just dies.

Well, here's the thing that confuses me about Anchor is they will come up, punch you in the face and then go, oh, and if you need it, here's a bag of. Here's some frozen peas to put on your chin like they have. You can go in now. And this is where I kind of give them credit, but it's like, hey, look, we gave you a bag of peas to put on your face after we punched you. Because they now have the ability to show your email in the feed. So they fixed that problem.

Oh, they fixed that. Okay.

The thing that still drives me nuts, and my biggest problem is they will say, we will submit your podcast for you in quotation marks to all the places. Not telling them that. By the way, there's extra stats in Apple that you're not going to get. There's extra stats in Stitcher that you're not going to get. There's X, in fact, in Stitcher, I don't think they submit to Stitcher anymore. Stitcher probably said, hey, you're making us more work. Because these people, once they leave, went to Stitcher, and like, hey, we got to get that thing back. That's. I asked the guys at Apple, I go, is this not making you more work? And if you let them submit to Google Podcast again, you lose that stuff. So what they did. Is there a thing now if you turn on the feature to show my email address, not the anchor one, there's a new feature where you can put in. Because Apple's gonna say, look, you have to prove you're the owner of the feed. Put this gibberish in your feed. Anchor made a box to put the gibberish.

Oh, they've done both now.

So they made it easier to get back the feed that they stole from you. And I was just like, why not, like, not steal the feed? But so they're. They're getting better, but there are a lot of people there that still think, you know, I'm gonna get paid from day one, right? Yes, you are about. And to the best of my knowledge, I've asked many people this. What sponsors have you gotten on Anchor? And the answer is the. It's one sponsor, and that sponsor is Anchor. Anchor. And you. You get about a penny a download. And so the one thing that's supposed to be making the money. Selling ads against your content is actually losing them more money. But not a lot, because my favorite is I just did a roundup of podcast about podcasting, which you were on, and there was one, like, podcast consultant or something like that, and it was on Anchor, and there was one episode, and that was it. And I was like, there's just. Just so much in that kind of screenshot of like, here's somebody that went to anchor, did one episode, and went, yeah, never mind.

Yeah, yeah. So anchor is there. So anchor now. So the majority of the traditional complaints about Anchor are kind of gone.

Some of them.

What's left in the. In the big complaints?

The. The whole. They submit your show and don't tell you. That's the.

Well, I was able. I took a show and I was able to. To preemptively say, don't submit. All submit.

Right?

Yeah, unfortunately, I did that. But I did that with an email address that they owned. So I submitted a show, and it's. The show is called Paul's on Anchor. Is this a good idea?

And, well, that's the thing is. And again, it's. I'm not sure they're doing this to be evil, right? Their whole goal is it's easy. Look, you just talk into your phone and you show up in Apple. But they're not letting people know. Oh, by the way, when you do this, there is a potential side effect. They're just like, no, it's just easy. Just press record and it'll go. And it's the people later. And that's why when they first came out, they drove me nuts, because I was the guy that had to be the bad guy and deliver the bad news. Oh, no, you. They own your show. And they're like, what? So that's what drove me nuts. For a good, solid month, all I did was clean up Anchor messes.

And what was funny was I saw Anchor as, like, the other thing. I mean, it's a nice app. It's a nice app. And one of the things I've done in quarantine is probably a really bad idea is I've signed up for all of the Facebook groups about podcasting. So, you know, that was a mistake. And someone asked about Anchor, like, you know, the typical use Anchor question. And it was funny because the guy's thing was anchor's great, but their software sucks, you know, or something like that. I'm like, that's one I haven't seen. You know, so. So Anchor exists. Anchor got bought by Spotify, they're still called anchor. There's a way to make a free podcast. If you're really super crazy diligent, you could build it there and move it somewhere else.

Right.

Pros and cons to that is to be asked the thing about YouTube that. The comparison to YouTube that they don't get. And this is the thing that I think a lot of people don't understand. YouTube announced social media marketing world this year. Actually, the last thing I went to before this shutdown, they officially announced that three out of every four videos at YouTube, 75% of all videos at YouTube come from. If you like this video, you like this video, you know, so there is something to be said that if I were to want to become famous as a podcast teacher, you know, I could make a bunch of videos, you know, that looked, you know, that were in the same school of school, podcasting videos. And then, you know, I could leverage Dave's name and fortune, you know, to bring people over to me. But we don't have that in podcasting, so the whole free part doesn't necessarily make sense, you know, and. And. And there are paid plans that are as low as five bucks, you know, and. And, yeah, it's just. It's just an interesting thing. And. And I do love the person who will buy, you know, who will wait to buy the extended version of the new MacBook Pro because they need the extra memory, you know, and they need the better screen. And then they'll spend five months debating, you know, which $900 microphone they should buy. And then, you know, then they'll go, why should I pay for hosting? You know, that. That's a classic question mark in. In my mind.

Yeah. 15 bucks. I'm. Boy, I don't know. That's. That's crazy talk. Well, that. And again, comparing it to YouTube. YouTube makes money by placing ads. And. And now in the middle, for no apparent reason, even if you didn't put it.

You seen my man? I wonder if I could bring up this.

Well.

Well, it wouldn't work on the audio version. So I have a new slide deck. Dave. It's so much fun. So first screen, it's got the YouTube logo, and it's got a dollar sign. How does YouTube make its money?

Ads.

And YouTube makes. YouTube makes its money by selling your audience to your competition. Next screen's got the Facebook logo with the dollar sign. How does Facebook make money? Facebook makes money by selling your audience to your competition. The next slide is Instagram. How does Instagram make money by selling Your audience to your competition. The last one is Apple. How does Apple make money by selling iPhones? Which is different.

Yeah.

Which is different. And it's something. It's something that I think needs to be examined. All right, so. So Spotify is big news. You know, people moving over to walled garden type of situations is big news. Anchor is big news. Podcast academy, some could say is big news. A lot of the podcasting conferences, I mean, pretty much they've all fallen down, right? They're all virtual now, right?

Every single one. PodFest was the last one that I went to, and that was actually. Take that back. No, there was. There was podcast movement.

Evolutions.

Evolutions. And then there was. There was a Christian podcast conference, and then PodFest in Orlando. And we all were kind of like, do we. Do we touch elbows? We're all kind of like, not sure what to do here.

And.

And we were. I don't know about you, but I was 14 days after that thing was over. I was very happy that I was.

Like, hey, not physically to podcast.

That's right.

I went to social media marketing world. Same thing. 14 days. I was like, I. You know, yeah, yeah. Every cough was. Was. Was questioning. And then. And then, of course, the big thing for me was monitor. It was social media marketing world. So I figured if anybody caught it, they'd certainly talk about on social media marketing, you know, and so. And apparently no results. So, you know, that's a whole thing. So it is cool because it's funny. Pod Fest is not necessarily where my audience is, but what's funny is podfast is where my friends are. And so I've always had this. This, you know, weird, weird thing. And so now I'm finally able to do podfest in a couple of weeks. I'm really excited about that, and I think that's gonna be fun. I'm gonna bring out one of my business ones and whatnot. And Chris has been very gracious to let me do that. I think. I think that's going to be a lot of fun with all the podcast events going virtual. So I've been. I've been saying, well, we'll use this one as a straight example. Okay. There's an event called Traffic and Conversion in San Diego takes place at the end of March, beginning of April, right? Yeah. And 10,000 people. I had a big presentation, I had a panel. I paid the money for the big booth because, you know, 10,000 people looking to think about podcasting now. Officially, TNC is rescheduled for December, but, you know, we're starting to get those surveys of how would you feel if we went virtual or that kind of thing. And I think my bet is that TNC is the future for the next couple of years is going to be hybrid, is going to be, yeah, we'll be physical, but we're also going to record the thing, you know, when you look at, you know, so the original proposition, and let's just use TNC as the example, not necessarily the one to hold up, but you know, the Money to see 10,000 people face to face in the room, all the stuff, the chance to work with Schwarzenegger on the keynote, all that, you know, once that goes down to 4,000 people who are scared to shake your hand, let alone go into the basement room, you know, where your booth is, let alone be in the keynote in the closed room with everybody, let alone go to the parties, let alone go to the networking and that type of thing. Does the virtual become better? You know, and these physical events have been fantastic.

But there's one thing that virtual shows are missing. Adrenaline.

Right.

Because when I met Evolutions, you and I walked blocks to go to a horrible networking event and then turn around and walk back home. But the whole time was like, we're here, there are people here. The only way we can see them face to face. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, is to find them here. Because when we go home, we're not going to be able to talk face to face. And so it's, it's for me at least I'm excited when I get there. I'm excited while it's going on and I pretend I'm 22 and stay up till like 2 in the morning talking to people. And when I go home, I crash and burn like nobody's business. And I don't feel that when I'm on a. I was on. I've been on a few virtual stuff and they're fun. There's some really cool technology out there, but it's not quite the same thing because I can do another one the next day and the next week. And it's, it's that kind of specialness of like, oh, we're at the thing.

Yeah, it's, it's not quite the same. I agree, I agree. But what I think the number gets, I mean, you, you've been doing, you, you've been doing a podcast or happy hour.

Yeah.

Nowhere near as cool as a happy hour. Like, sorry, Dave, no, it's not. I'd much rather go to a happy hour, but it's Better than what I got right now. And if I had a podcaster happy hour here in Portland, even downtown. And let's not even talk about downtown Portland right now. But. But let's say downtown Portland was, you know, got better. And I went to a Portland happy hour. Just that drive. Two hours each way or an hour each way. I'm in the suburbs and, you know, and the level of people just, you know, and the Portland podcasters are great, but I don't know if I could do virtual happy hours every Friday. Is that better than a Portland happy hour every other month, you know, and Cheryl here says, you know, Cheryl. And Facebook says live is live and virtual is virtual. That's. That's absolutely true, Cheryl. And. And I would say all things being said and done live will always be better. But in this moment right now, you know, how many virtuals is worth alive? You know, Chris is trying to beat. Chris is trying to beat world. We have to be very careful how we say this. I don't know if you've been briefed on this yet, Dave, but, you know, Chris is trying to set a Guinness Book of World's Records with this event, and we're supposed to be very, very careful with it. More people might see that presentation than would see it if I was at a big event, potentially. So what is the math of virtual versus physical?

Boy, that's a good question. Because they are. Again, if you. If you go to a virtual event and there's only five people, but one of those five people is a client that's going to pay you a lot of money. Yeah, you know, it's. And what's weird is you. You mentioned the happy hour. I. I started those because there were people that are like, I need to talk to someone above the age of seven.

Right.

I just need to, you know. And I was like, well, let's just put this together. And I even said, we don't even need to talk about podcasting. Most of it was like, what are you watching on Netflix is what I should have named it, but it was just a place to chill out. And I quit doing them because I had other things, like, to do. And I've had people say, like, when you bring in the happy hour back. And I'm like, really? But, you know, it's one of those things where it was just a nice place to come in and blow off steam and that whole nine yards. But that's a good question. How many? That's a good question.

So there is an event this year called the Future Congress. The Congress of Future Medical Leaders. It's an event that takes kids who are going to Medical School, puts 5,000 of them in an arena, and catches them up to what the real world is about. Now, obviously didn't happen this year. It was virtual this year. I'll tell you, watching my senior, she's going into her senior year, watching her manipulate Zoom Boy, it's a different world. And. And what's hilarious is she's. She told me, I can't wait to go back next year, you know, and. And I, you know, great. And, you know, the ticket's good for next year and, you know, all that stuff. But. But I asked her why it's funny as well. I can't wait to meet all my friends. They use the back channel, they use the hashtags. They started reaching out to each other in Zoom Chat. They built this community virtually, and they can't wait to go next year to actually physically meet, which I think is hilarious. You know, I don't. You know, it's funny. People ask me, you know, I run the podcast partnership. I make my. My living in podcast consulting and podcast production. I don't have a single Oregon customer. And so sometimes people go like, like, how did Covet affect you? It really didn't in production did in marketing, because I would go to big events and market and that kind of thing.

Right.

But next week, I got Hollywood Branded. Two weeks after that, I've got. I've got Chris's event, I've got Podfest, Guinness Book of World Records. You know, I've got. We are podcast the week after that. You know, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe this is the beginning of something better.

Well, it's. I host a little local Northeast Ohio meetup, and it's been great for me because I've been having guest speakers from all over the place that normally are not going to fly to Ohio to come talk to 12 people, but they'll get on Zoom for 45 minutes to come in and talk about whatever they want to talk about. And so that's definitely a plus, you know, and we're having more people show up, which is weird because literally the meetings were typically 10 to 15 minutes from somebody's house. But the fact that I don't, you know, I can go to the meeting in my pajamas now. There are people showing up that wouldn't show up before, so that's a bonus.

Yeah, no, so we'll. We'll. And you mentioned this a little bit earlier. Yeah. Nobody's making shows. Right. Like, you Think it's bad right now, you know, when we're on the other side of this and they're finally making shows, but none are done, you know, and we're waiting for it. I think that's gonna be interesting. Is. Is this gonna be podcasting's big moment? Are we gonna be the ones to actually provide the entertainment while we wait for Hollywood to catch up? Because, by the way, this pandemic's a little longer than that writer strike of a couple years.

Well, I. I did just see a promo for a new TV show that is some sort of reality celebrities, he said, in quotation marks, that are doing almost like the ice bucket challenge kind of stuff. And it's for charity, and it would just. It just looked like, hey, we got a bunch of, you know, again, celebrities to get on TV and do wacky stuff.

Right?

And I was like, that's what we're. That's what we're gonna.

Okay, yeah, that'll last a little while.

And I am old school enough. Yes. I hold in my hand a DVD envelope from Netflix, because. I don't know, because I never canceled it, but it's one of those where I would go in every Tuesday, look at the new releases, and go, oh, yeah, go ahead and send that to my house. Save me a trip to the red box. And that list is getting weirder and weirder because there's no new movies. I'm like, well, I guess I could rent this old, you know, whatever Robert Redford from 1978. I've never seen that movie. I've heard a lot about it, you know, kind of stuff. So that's. It's gonna be a bit of a drought. It'll be interesting to see. And then you also have more celebrities. Demi Moore is now doing a podcast called I think it's Dirty Diana, and why? Because everything.

And somebody wrote a check.

Somebody wrote a big check. We can still produce podcasts because you can do a podcast and not get anywhere near anybody. All you need is a microphone and a voice and record it, and we'll do it on zoom and, you know, squad, cast, and put all the stuff together, and voila, instant content. So maybe we'll see more celebrity podcasts. Yay. Yeah, I still remember the Kathy Lee Gifford podcast. It was not. Oh, yeah, no, thank you.

I think. I think what's going to be. It's really be fun to see what comes out on the other side of this, Like. Like the shows that we listen to and watch because we had nothing left when the other guys Come back to replace. Are we going to replace. Are we going to stay with what we know? You know, I think that's going to be really, really interesting. And I think what we want, I think might change fairly dramatically as. As well, you know, and, yeah, it's just going to be. It's. We're going to be. We're going to be at an interesting time. So what are people in the school of podcasting? What are the big. Dave, teach me how to. What are people looking for in that space?

The fun thing now, somebody signs up getting a microphone, usually, you know, go over to Amazon, get yourself a Samsung Q2U or Audio Technic, and all the microphones are, like, out of stock. And so you're like, oh, well, that's a little different. So that's, you know, something that's. I like for a while, B and h had Samsung Q2 use. Now they don't. So that's kind of one of the things I'm doing is I'm constantly checking, oh, no, they're over at Amazon now. Okay, now you got to go to bsw, you know, because different shipments come in. So that's going to be. Be interesting to watch. We have some people that are like, I have a guy that does the tourpreneur, was going gangbusters. You know, he just had his hundredth episode, and it's the tour business. So his business now is kind of like how to stay afloat when you can't do tours. So that's kind of interesting. I do have a few people starting TV podcasts, and that's always a little bit of a head scratcher to me because. Aren't you going to just tell me what they did, like, last night on the show? They, you know, Kirk saved the day at the end of the show, like, oh, okay. Trying to think what else everybody wants to monetize. I see that a lot in Facebook groups. You know, they're trying to figure out, like, my favorite question is, what topic should I pick to monetize? And I'm like, boy, you. You cannot step off the boat in more of a wrong direction than what's the most monetizable subject? I will talk about that. It's just like, oh, not the way.

Not the way to start.

So. And we're all looking, of course, to, you know, to grow your audience. And that's the thing where I just started a podcast as a test. I've always wanted to do a local podcast, so I started one about Akron, Ohio, home of LeBron James and devoiry and found out we have a minor league basketball team that I didn't know. And then Covid hit and I was going to go interview local businesses, and now it's kind of like, well, guess what? More people got shot this weekend and there are protests. And so I'm kind of got that on hold. But, you know, there are people that are diving into that. But that's, you know, and probably I think the biggest question now is how do I record interviews locally or not locally, but online. So it's the squad cast, the clean feeds, the zoom, you know, things of that. So that's nothing really new. Just a lot of people starting a podcast because they were all home and bored. If you look at numbers up at.

The school podcasting, they.

It's. It's weird. I had a. When Covid, like when everything shut down, numbers went up. Then when everybody's paycheck went down, numbers went down a little bit. And then a lot of people like, hey, I, you know, I'm like, look, you don't have to explain. No apology needed.

Spend your last dollar on me.

Yeah, go take your. Go take care of your family. I'll be okay. And now it's kind of coming back up. Especially consulting was one that just went. Nobody was doing one on one consulting. I was like. Because that, that's where some of my bread is buttered. But that is now slowly coming back. So things are coming back a little bit. So we shall, you know, we'll see. But I know at my podcast reviews, Daniel has the numbers. So it's, it's. We had two months there where we were setting records with people just starting a podcast. Now, granted, a lot of those were on anchor. So they're gonna clutter up the place now for years. Because when you're not, you know, if it's, I don't know, a blueberry podbean lips and feed and you quit paying for it, well, eventually it gets pulled out of Apple. But if it's a free feed, when you stop not paying for it, it still sticks around. So that's. That's another one.

I think we'll see that purge soon.

Yeah, because it's like, I think eventually that is going to cause a problem.

So, you know, around here it's been interesting on the consulting side scene. And it's almost a third. A third, A third. So about a third of the people we've worked with in the past, I just have this vision of them in the corner of their office, rocking back and forth, sucking their Thumb, you know, the end times are near. The end times are near, you know, and, you know, things are crazy times. And, and, and, boy, there are a lot of things you got to answer before what I'm going to get a podcast about. So I, I understand them about a third are, all right, what does this mean? What do we do differently? What do we do? You know, but then a third. I have a client who, in the course of four days, she got 27 speaking engagements and training sessions canceled. Oh, four days, 27 of them. Her response was, well, I guess I have the time to start the podcast now. That's it, you know, And I'm like, yeah, let's do this. And I'm really, really, really excited about this. And so, so, yeah, yeah, so we're doing okay. Lost a couple customers, but, but, but. And I've signed up. I've actually signed up two new customers since COVID which is interesting because, boy, the. The marketing deck you gave someone in February of 2020 is so meaningless right now, it isn't even funny. So I've just dropped everybody. Everybody I Talked to before March 13, you know, is kind of in a. In a different category, but it's been interesting. But some of. Some have up their money, some have up their spend, some of up their output, you know, because of the opportunity here. And I think it's just been really, really interesting.

Yeah, if you. It's a little bit like the stock market. If you have the patience to write out the waves, it usually works out that way. So.

Well, Dave, so I'm going to take a few minutes here, tell you kind of what I'm thinking about season. The next season of the podcast report, and I want you to want to give me your honest opinion. And then so we'll play both Ask the podcast coach as well as a little sneak peek of what's ahead. One of my favorite documents. So the last batch of episodes I did in the podcast report was all about my team clarity matrix and the six characters that make up a podcast. And that's done really well. And what's neat is I've seen some decent revenue taking people through the program, and I've also seen some people like, hey, I went through the program myself. Thank you. I figured things out. So that did everything it's supposed to do. Very, very happy. Another tool we have inside of the company is called the. Oh, gosh, this. This is hilarious that I'm having a hard time remembering it now. This is absolutely. Oh, yeah. Thank you, Dave, for that one to pull One out right now, because this is the. Oh, my goodness. He's stalling. Installing. Installing Mindset scorecard. Thank you. And so I was gonna guess that I'm working the folks. I'm working with the folks from Strategic Coach, and what they have is they have this concept of the mindset scorecard. And the idea of the mindset scorecard, is that what your mindset is? And things like that's what has to match, you know, that's it. You know, like you said, you know, you said earlier, man, getting into podcasting, trying to find a topic that's most monetizable won't win, you know, you know, anybody who's trying to do that has a different mindset than you. And so the idea of the mindset scorecard is that know how we're working together, know what we're thinking, we go from there. So I'm going to do each topic in the mindset scorecard. I'm going to do an episode based on that. You know, like, one of. One of my big things is the idea of assets versus episodes. Don't create an episode, create an asset. You know, and the model is Jerry Seinfeld. You know, Jerry didn't create his show for whoever was doing the ads that week. He created something that lasted forever. And here we are nearly 30 years later, and he's renting his assets for half a billion dollars to Hulu, and he gets to take it home when it's all done, you know, which is absolutely amazing. So we're going to go through all the elements of the mindset scorecard. Each episode, we're going to hit one of those. And the great thing is, they're not necessarily bad things. If you're doing a daily bitcoin market update, you're not making an asset, you're making an episode. And there's no way to make a daily bitcoin market update with anything other than episodes. So it's not that the mindset different than mine is bad, it's just that that this is the mindset from where by which I am working, and it helps identify others. So I'm going to go with eight of my mindsets, and that's going to be the. The next eight episodes. And I think that's going to be interesting.

Any.

Any thoughts there here?

I even have sound effects for this.

The following is an opinion. There we go. An opinion. These are actual, honest first impressions.

I think it's a great idea, and here's why. I did something similar. But it was only in one Episode in January. Every January, especially in January, I get the people that approach me and they're like, I want to start a podcast and I want to quit my job in six weeks. And I am not exaggerating. They want to quit their job in six weeks. I'm like, you can open a Wendy's and not quit your day job in six weeks. And so I did an episode that basically said, not gonna happen. Just here to tell you, I know there's always that one outlying person that. But that person had, you know, a. A crowd when they started, there was something happened that that person took off. Not gonna happen. And I basically said, and if you're the person that's like, I don't know, $15 for hosting, I'm not sure if that's gonna work for me. And I said, if that is the case, if that's your honest case. And I've been there. I've been there, going, standing at the vending machine going, mountain Dew gas for home. Mountain Dew gas. Which I've been in that. Those shoes. And I said, and if $15 a month is gonna kill you, you don't need a podcast.

Right.

You need a job. Yeah. And so it's not. You don't podcast. You don't podcast now, because my guess is, is if the $15 is gonna break your budget, and then you've probably got some family problems at home because things are a little tense there. And I really thought, number one, I'm gonna have people going, how dare you? Poor shame people. And how dare you? But. But what? It did by stating kind of like, hey, this is. This is where I'm at. I didn't have anybody contact me. They're like, oh, that. He's already answered my question. So by. So by doing this. What's it called again? The Strategic Mindset Scorecard. Mindset Scorecard. You're gonna have people that are gonna kind of grade themselves.

Yeah.

And then come to you, and you can fine tune their. Their card and go, oh, this is better.

Let's determine if we have the same mindset, because if we don't have the mindset, we probably don't want to work together.

Exactly. One of my favorite calls ever. I had a guy that was driving from Minnesota to Atlanta, and he calls me up and I have a phone number on my. My website. And occasionally I will actually answer that phone. So I pick it up and I'm like, this is Dave. And he's like, dave Jackson? And I'm like, yeah. And he goes, you answer your Phone. And I'm like, on occasion.

What's going on?

He's like, well, I was just calling to leave you a message. I'm. I'm driving from Minnesota to Atlanta. I've been listening to you for about five hours now, and I don't know what I'm going to podcast about, but you're my guy. When I'm ready to go, you're my guy. So by doing that scorecard, people are going to know, okay, when I work with Paul, this is what I need to be ready to do. And so you're going to end up with a warmer lead. You're going to end up with a better educated client, so that when they do come on board, you're going to be like, okay, well, let's, let's get to work. And they're going to be able to just pick up a shovel and go, because they already know the game plan.

I think it's a great idea in theory. I had a, had an interesting. I. I spoke at Vid Summit. Not vid. Not. Right. VidSummit. Yeah. Not. Not VidCon, which is the business of online video. And the COO of one of my favorite clients came out as well. And we hung out a lot. And whenever the CEO of your favorite client says, can we hang out at an event? The answer is yes. Yes. And I do my presentation. And it was a presentation on going to the top of itunes, which, you know, is one of my things. And I think we even chatted about it on your show.

Right?

And it was funny afterwards. She says, hey, Paul, can I give you a bit of advice? I said, yes, please. She said, so if we had seen this presentation before we hired you, we probably would have paid you more. I'm like, okay, you know, and, and the great was, it was, it was a well reviewed event. I mean, VIN Summit's a big event. You're not, you're not asked back unless you get good numbers, you know, and so it was a good service. It was a good, it was a good presentation. It was everything that the audience wanted, but it also helped solidify my position. And that's, that's what I want to try to do. And, you know, school podcast, you're sort of in, you're sort of in the same place. Like, if you're going to endeavor to, to roll your own. Here's what school looks like. And let me give you some mentalities of what it takes to go through school, you know, and what's great is if somebody walks away going, dave's not my guy or Paul's not my guy. That, that's actually a benefit to everyone.

Exactly. Because I don't want to work with the guy or the, the female. You know, I don't want to work with a person that's like, hey, we're on week four and I'm not making any money yet.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not really. I'm not your guy.

Yeah.

You know, and that's. I would much rather figure that out sooner than later. So you can go find the person who's going to charge you, you know, 977 for the first week and have 18 bonuses and, you know, gonna have you making money before you even sign up. And you will, you know, look at his yacht. I probably got a yacht and a boat and, you know, that whole nine years. Go, go take his program.

Yeah. I actually have seen a lot more get rich on face, get rich on podcasting on Facebook lately. Maybe it's, you know what it is? You know, it is. They've always been there. It's just that because I joined all those groups, they're doing the audience matching, that kind of thing. So I see, I see it out.

I see a lot of Facebook groups where people are doing research. They're asking these. It's, it's like, what's your biggest hurdle when it comes to podcasting? And I'm like, oh, somebody's doing some research. Okay.

About to do a seven dollar ebook.

Oh, cool.

Well, Dave, thank you for being the inspiration to come back. And your longevity at the school of podcasting has always been a blast. You have the model. Earlier this year, I asked your permission and I shared some numbers of the coupon code that you've offered in the show as the lead in to the membership site. And audiences really appreciated it. I sent you that war room video. Right. Whether or not you watched it. Yeah. Okay. What number are you at on the show?

It never goes below 70. It ranges anywhere from 70 to, I think 85 at one point. It's. It's up there.

Well, no, I mean, how many Downloads you have?

Oh, 2.5 million total. There we go. And what episode number 737 is? Something like that. A lot. Yeah.

Your inspiration, you, you, you do what needs to be done for the model and the place that, that, that you are at. And it is, it is a, it is a blast to watch. Your, your, your friendship is dear to me. You are one of the reasons why I would go to a physical event, because I know, you know, if, if, if Anything. Dave and I will at least go hang out. And so thank you for being on this final episode of the most recent season and launch me into the next season where we do the mindset scorecard. So should I edit out that part where I can't remember the name of it or. Or should we just enjoy. No, no, no. I'm going to keep the whole thing in here.

Keep it in. That's it.

Dave, give a tip so that when I introduce this episode, I'm going to go at the end of the episode, Dave gives a tip so fantastic that the entire episode was worth it. So no pressure. I'm going to stall a little bit while I'm talking here to have you come up with this tip.

All right.

But we're going to end with this tip and then when you're done, I'm going to click the in the broadcast button, I'm going to put the music and everybody's going to get the audio version of this. So, Dave, why don't you finish this.

Off with the tip in true. This is just reeks of everything in my book. Profit from your podcast coming out next in September. Here's a great tip. Put your sponsors in your private Facebook group. Then when you say, when it's time to renew the contract, go to your Facebook group. Hey, how many people have used the sponsor? And when all these hands go up and go, loved it. It was great. I used best product ever. You don't have to then third party the feedback. You've now turned your Facebook group into research for the sponsor. And when you walk in and go, hey, it's time to renew the contract, I've got the pen right here. It's really easy to get them to sign and chances are that price might go up a little bit.