Jennifer Briney - The Podcast Report

I can say whatever I want as long as my listeners are getting something out of it. And it's an enormous amount of freedom to not have to worry about, about irritating my, my advertiser. So for people like me that are talking about current events and do have to talk about companies and congressmen, and I need that freedom, not, maybe not everybody needs it, but it is so amazing to have it. And I think we need to protect that as much as we possibly can as an industry. You are listening to the Podcast Report with Paul Colligan. Here's Paul.

Jennifer Briney is profiting from bitcoin and more, and she's making the same amount of money regardless of what her stats say. It's the podcast report, episode 132, show notes, links, conversation and more at the podcastreport.com 1132 this is my first interview of the season. I met Jennifer actually a few podcast movements back, was introduced to her by actually Adam Curry. So that's always a good sign. I liked her. I liked what she was doing. I knew I wanted to continue the conversation. And then Jessica over at Interview Connections gave a call and said, hey, what do you think about putting Jennifer on the show? And I said, yes, let's do it now. I recorded this episode a few weeks back, recorded the interview a few weeks back, and there are some things in there that I hint to what's coming. You could put it all together. This was obviously recorded afterwards. It's a free form interview. Lots of great stuff. There is a lot to learn from Jennifer. I did. I know you will too. But before the interview, it's the tip of the week. It's a simple rule, but it's a smart one. Just because some podcast expert or guru or authority or teacher tells you to do something specific on your podcast, ask yourself a simple question. Does this make sense? Why do they do this? Why have they done this? There's a lot of bad ideas, There's a lot of bad teaching, there's a lot of bad concepts in podcasting. And if most podcasters would take a few minutes, if not a few seconds to think through the idea and ask if it really makes sense, you might be producing better podcasts. The industry that gives us so much freedom, the industry that gives us so much opportunity and room for creativity also just has a bunch of people who are wrong. Just because an expert says to do it doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to be done. Think it through, work it through. If they say something that doesn't quite make sense, Ask them why. And more importantly, ask them for proof. So I have on the Skype line, Jennifer. Jennifer Briney. Did I get the last name right?

Jennifer? You did. Briney, as in salty.

There we go. She does a show that fascinates me on a number of levels. And we'll be chatting about that in today. Today's episode. But here, here's the funny thing. I was a political science major in college, and to this day, my friends and family and spouse and kids all asked me what the heck political science ever has to do with my podcasting job. And today, Jennifer, it all changed. I now finally am using my political science degree for my job. So. So thank you for making me whole.

You are so welcome.

All right, so what is the Congressional dish?

So this is a podcast that I invented about five years ago because I was going a little crazy after watching C Span, and I looked into the Congressional Record, and I was finding things happening in Congress that no one was talking about. And so I decided to start a podcast because I was at a weird point in my lack of a career, and I've always been into talk radio. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna start a podcast so I can at least get this out of my system and not just be screaming at my husband all the time. Like, I can scream at the Internet and then behave like a Norma. So that's really how it started, is I just wanted to share what I was finding. And then because I didn't know anything really about Congress, I made my shtick for the first two years that I would read every bill that passed the House of Representatives, and I continued to do that for two and a half years until I realized that was impossible. But, yeah, so that's how I educated myself. I did it on the air, and now that I know how Congress functions or doesn't function lately, but now that I kind of know how it works, I'm picking topics that are interesting to me and watching fascinating hearings that aren't getting covered on the news and just still sticking to that original goal of getting more people to pay attention to Congress and what they're actually doing as opposed to campaigns.

This is radical on a lot of levels. One, there's just the whole public commentary here that. Well, first of all, I don't know a lot of talk people, addicts who actually read the bills. Usually, talk radio is just for learning who you're supposed to get mad at. So.

Yeah, exactly.

And thank you for being educated. Most of the audience loves to figure out you know. You know, where shows come from. I mean, are you just the type where someone on talk radio says something generic, and then you just have to go investigate it? I mean, how did. How did you get to the reading of bills? I mean, even with the political junkie that I am, I don't read bills. I mean, what got you into this?

You know, it really started in 2003. Before that, I wasn't political at all. The only way that politics was really in my life is that my parents would listen to Rush Limbaugh in the car. And I went to a private school, so I was kind of like a prisoner having to listen to that type of talk radio. So that was my experience growing up. I wanted nothing to do with it. But then in 2003, I was studying abroad in Germany when the president started the Iraq war. And so being over there in Germany, a lot of people in bars and restaurants, they would hear my accent. They would know I was American, and they would ask me, what is your country doing? And I didn't know. And I wasn't one of these people that was gonna pretend that I knew. I just said, I don't know. I'm so sorry. And I was embarrassed by that. So when I. That was my senior year of college, and I call it reverse culture shock, because it was so much harder for me to come home than it was to go to Germany, because I was shocked that no one was talking about the war. All of my friends were talking about the movie Old School, which, don't get me wrong, it was a great movie. I loved it. But at the same time, I mean, we had started a war. So I was really shocked by the. By the people that I knew and loved. And I came home to, and I was like, how did we have two such different experiences? So my senior year of college is when I started asking questions. And I was really lucky in that I was a communications major who had really not worked too much in my first two years of college. So I took all of my important classes in the last year of college and really got to immerse myself in understanding how the media functions, understanding the messages that they were putting out. I got to look at some documentaries that showed me how the Iraq war was portrayed at home. It was basically. I mean, I don't. Were you here in the States at that time?

Yep.

Yes. You remember, like, Shock and Awe. It was presented like a TV show, something exciting, where it was much more serious where I was. And so it was really. That's when it all started When I just started asking questions like, what is our place in the world? And why are we doing these things? And every time I got an answer, it led to 50 more questions. And I just became kind of obsessed and started reading a lot of books and. And I was trying to make money in other ways in careers, because I realized that I didn't want to work. What's the goal in media? Do I want to work for the television cable stations that sold the war, or do I want to work for the newspapers that sold the war? So I didn't know what the goal was. In around 2007, I discovered it was a talk radio station. It was called Air America, but it was also just starting to provide on demand content too. So back in the day, I mean, that's where Rachel Maddow got her start. That's where the Young Turke got their start. This is where Al Franken got his start. And then he became Minnesota senator. He's still there. And so I started listening to that, and that was the first time I had heard something and said like, okay, these people are giving me answers. Randy Rhodes, of all people, was the person who introduced me to the idea that Congress is what makes all the laws and Congress determines where the money is. And that nothing that the Bush administration did could have been done without Congress. That really opened my eyes. And she also kind of taught us in one episode how she reads the bills. So that was really helpful. I had also taken a. A business law class in college, which. So the bill language didn't really scare me. But that was the first time, it was around 2007, that I started paying attention to Congress. And then I started watching C Span in my. My boredom time. And I discovered C span 3, which is where the hearings are. Those are my favorite ones. And then it was around 2000, it was this December of 2011. I'll remember it forever. But I was watching C Span. I was cleaning, I was just doing. Just for cash jobs, and I was watching C Span and I saw Tom Cole, a representative from Oklahoma, get on the House floor and brag about the fact that he had slipped a provision protecting secret campaign contributions into an energy and water funding law. And I was watching this because my husband's a solar power engineer. I was not expecting to hear that, and I didn't really trust that I was hearing it correctly. So that was the first time I went into the Congressional Record, found exactly what he said and found the exact provision in the law, and went, oh, my God, this is. And then I turned on Rachel Maddow. And I turned on Fox News and I turned on CNN and no one was talking about it. And then the really shocking part is I went onto the Internet and there were no articles, there were no blogs. It was like it never even happened. And that was the catalyst of me going, oh my God, like this is something I can do. I can find this stuff and tell people about it because no one is onto this now.

You have piqued the interest of the political junkie in me. Well, I'll tell you, I have maybe four friends who love C Span, but I've never heard anyone say they're a C span. That's, that's, that's definitely the story that you gave. Has been told many times at podcasting events for different passion, different niche projects. And I adore the passion and the niche projects on, in podcasting because they're truly the fun ones. You know, the person who wants to be the next Rachel Maddow. Well, we already have Rachel. You know, the person who wants to be the next this, the next that, you know, that's already there. It's this really in depth stuff. But usually the story ends with. And that's why I am a full time, you know, CPA to pay for my podcasting addiction, you know, or yes, I'm a substitute teacher or you know, sadly, we hear a lot and that's why I still live in my parents basement. You are monetizing a niche that is so small that as you just described, nobody else is doing it. Yeah, you're doing it and you're monetizing it. And before we hit record, you're actually making several times, 20, 50 times the average ad insert for a show. How the heck are you monetizing C span 3? I mean, the US government hasn't figured out how to do that. Talk to me.

So that's funny. Well, I mean, first, I do think I have to acknowledge my position of privilege because I didn't have any debt when I started this. And my husband and I, he had already gotten his master's degree and I was at a crossroads. It was like, do I go back to college and try and learn how to do this that way or do I just do it and learn as I go? And we decided that for the first year I wasn't going to try to make any money. So I did this for an entire year and it was a learning experience. The whole idea was I would see if I liked podcasting and I would see if there was a following for this show. So for one year, didn't even try. And so I think that also established for the long term audience that I'm doing this for a reason other than, you know, making money or my own. I mean, it was for my own career, but I did establish with people in the beginning that I'm not just trying to make money. And so when I decided to keep doing this, it was one year in and I said, okay, so this is the end of my one year of freedom. I told people I want to make this listener supported and ad free. Now at the time I had to because I didn't have the audience numbers where the advertisers were coming for me. So that was, that decision was kind of made for me. But I said, let's try this first and see how it goes. And then as I kept going and I, I really looked into how the media functions because one of the reasons why the corporate media doesn't tell us certain things is because they're paid not to. So for instance, if there's a drug that has some weird side effects, but that cable station is making money selling ads to the company that produces that drug, like we might not get that story. So there's definitely a corrupting influence on that. And so I discussed this with my audience and I said, let's keep this advertising free. We'll do the value for value model. And that actually that was invented by John C. Dvorak and Adam Curry. I can't take credit for that. I was calling it listener supported and they really showed me the way because they've been doing this for years. But really these arguments made sense to me. And as I was exploring them, I explained all of this to the audience, I discussed it with them and they started contributing. And it started with PayPal. I just put up a PayPal donate button. And then when I met John C. Dvorak and Adam Curry, they told me to open a P.O. box and people will send in paper checks. And they sure do. And then Patreon, I've done relatively recently because they offer a per episode model. But basically I just set up all the things that allowed people to send money to me. And I tell people if I'm going to keep doing this, I do need to make a living. So support in whatever amount you can. And I do. I have people that support me at the level of like a dollar a month. I have a guy who sends in checks for $250 a month. It's just whatever people think the show is worth to them, I leave that to Their judgment. And it's. It's working. I'm as shocked as anybody.

When you and I met, we actually met because of Adam Curry. The thing is, though, Jen, I want to say this without discouraging anybody, but there are a lot of podcasts who do the listener supported model because they're scared to do anything else. You know, there are a lot who, who, I mean, think about it, you know, instead of pursuing. I mean, if anybody in the world had a choice between pursuing advertisers and having people send them checks, you know, they're always going to be in the have people send you checks world. But that doesn't work for 99.999%. It works for John, it works for Adam, it works for you. It works. It works for a handful of others. But why do you think it works for so few? Is it bad implementation? Is it they didn't give it enough time, or is there something unique to what you're doing?

I think there's something unique to what myself, John and Adam are doing because we put a lot of work into our shows before we press record. So I'm reading bills, I'm watching really boring hearings that are hours and hours long. John and Adam are collecting clips and analyzing stuff and articles and doing research projects. And so I think the work part of it is key. I think that there's a lot of people that get into podcasting with. And don't get me wrong, I love the Joe Rogan experience. It's one of my favorite podcasts, but it's a conversation, you know, so it's like, if you want to have conversations, that's great, but there's not a lot of work in that if you want to just share your opinion. So I think that the work part, doing work that other people don't want to do, I think that's key. And it does. I mean, I don't put my opinions in my shows as do John and Adam, but it's not about our opinions, it's about what we're finding in our research. So I think the work part, that's a big, big part of it. They're paying me for the work, not for my opinion.

I appreciate what you said, but I know podcasters who work really, really hard who have tried the advertiser supported model who still haven't worked. You know, do you think there's something to the nature of the uniqueness of what you're doing, or do you think there's something in, you know, the fact that it's. That it's politics. Subversive. You know? You know, why. Why did did working her butt off work for Jen but not some others?

I mean, I honestly don't know. I think it might have something to do with the fact that I'm paying attention to what we're doing in the world. You know, the topic. You know, it's funny when people call this topic a niche, because it's not. I'm discussing something that affects not only people here in the United States, every single one of us, because it's where our money is going and what they're doing in our names, but it also affects the entire world. Like, my audience is global, and as are my supporters, I have people from Australia and England and Russia giving me money. So I think that my topic also helps this work because people want this information. They don't know where to find it, and they sure don't want to read a bill and watch these hearings. So maybe that's a part of it. I'm not sure. And I'm not saying that other podcasters don't work hard. It's just for whatever reason this podcast people are willing to pay for, I can't really. I don't know. I'm just guessing why it works for me and not for others, because I've only. I've only done this show. I don't. I don't know.

That's okay. That is a legitimate answer. Before we hit record, we're talking about the recent stats change at Libsyn. And for those of you who are aware of the issue, you're shaking your head, just like we are. For those of you who are aren't, Libsyn recently upgraded their stats to more align themselves with some industry standards. And it wasn't that Jen or anyone affected by it was necessarily cheating. It's just that certain sources and certain things that used to show up as, quote, unquote, legit are no longer showing up as legit. So some shows are heavily affected by it, some aren't. Some are heavily affected because of things they've done in the past. Some are not heavily affected. I think probably the international nature you mentioned, Russians listening to the show might have a fairly significant part of this, but you basically, your stats dropped how much when this change happened?

Well, I mean, the change had to do with file sizes, and my shows are really long, and it actually doesn't have to do with length. It has to do with the file sizes. My file sizes are big. And so what was happening is that those files were being counted Repeatedly by certain apps, one of them being itunes. And that's a biggie. So when this stats change was made so that my downloads were only counted once, I'm not sure because the dust hasn't really settled yet, but I'm thinking I'm going to settle about 50% of what I thought my audience was.

Yeah, cut in half. Here's what's fun though. People who take advertisers, the stats cut in half, the check cut cuts in half. You realize that your stats were cut in half. And again, the reporting and reality are, you know, always two different things. But your stats cut in half. So did Patreon get cut in half?

Nothing got cut in half. I was invincible to the stats change.

How cool is that?

It was great. I mean, I've never felt more comfortable with the decision that I made than I have in the last three weeks with my listener supported model because I wasn't affected. I mean, my pride was hurt, but that's as far as it went.

Now you're at over and I'm not going to ask you to disclose anything you don't want to disclose, but publicly you're at over a thousand bucks an episode on Patreon.

Yeah, that's a per episode funding. I also get people that pay through PayPal and paper checks and direct transfers. So I actually make quite a bit more than that.

Now, bitcoin, I'm going to be having a. I'm not going to announce it yet, but I'm going to. I'm going to have a fairly fascinating bitcoin player come here. You're taking bitcoin? You subversive, anti establishment. Jennifer Yu. Was that a lark? Has that been lucrative? Why are you taking bitcoin?

You know, it's funny, I'm taking bitcoin because there were people and I get these emails kind of frequently where they're like, you know, I love what you're doing, but I think the government's going to kill you. So I'd like to help you anonymously. And so they were the ones that asked me to set up the bitcoin link because I still don't really get what a bitcoin is. So all I've done is set up the link and there's people that choose to contribute through bitcoin. But what's been fascinating is that I did this back in 20. I want to say I started in 2013 with the Bitcoin link. So now I have whole bitcoins, which is tens of thousands of dollars in bitcoins. Now, obviously, it fluctuates all the time, so I have no idea how much it is today. It could be far lower than it was before, but I don't use them. I just let them sit there and I'm kind of watching what happens. And, yeah, so that was totally my listeners. It's one of those things where it's like, if someone tells me they want to give me money in any form, it's like, all right, if it costs me nothing to set up, fine. But that's the only reason that I have the bitcoins. But it's. It's a nice little savings account in case the podcast gets in trouble. I do have that as a backup.

Do you think bitcoin, traditional podcasters being paid at bitcoin, do you think that's going to be a thing, or is that more unique to the nature of your show?

I mean, I don't see any reason where. Why a podcaster wouldn't have the link, because it certainly doesn't hurt anything. And in my experience, back when I started this, bitcoin was maybe like 100 bucks per coin. So back then I was getting much larger chunks of bitcoin. And who knows? I mean, maybe each bitcoin will be a million a few years from now, or maybe it'll disappear. So that's the thing. It's gambling. The whole thing is gambling. So I. I don't make any predictions on it. I have no idea. But it certainly doesn't hurt. If someone wants to give you bitcoin and they won't give you cash, let them give you bitcoin.

You know, it's no. No worse than opening up a P.O. box and letting people send you stuff.

Exactly. It was. It was even easier than that.

So with the unique nature of podcasting, you know, you know, we. We have some. We have some freedoms of podcasters that I just absolutely adore. You know, one of the questions, and I understand why people ask this, but one of the questions that irks me is how long should a podcast episode be? And one of the beautiful things about podcasting is as long as it needs to be and not one minute more. You know, sometimes it's a 10 minute dialogue, sometimes it's an hour dialogue, sometimes it's a five hour dialogue. And we have the unique ability to give our audience that, which I think is a gift. I think that's part of why podcasting has just exploded. Because, you know, if I want to know what's happening in Congress, I can listen to your show and you'll give me the whole story at least, you know, the stuff that's, that's important to you. And then, you know, but when you have a show where it's like, well, I gotta make this come in under 20 minutes and I have an ad slot at 3, I have an ad slot at 6, I have an ad slot at 14, you know, the 3 charges this much, that much, you know, yada, yada, yada, you start to force yourself into some of the problems that are out there. I did a show over 10 years ago. It was something about making money with podcasting. And there was a guy who had a philosophy show. Each show was over an hour long, and his entire model, his entire marketing campaign, everything was, look, we're gonna spend an hour together. If that's not worth a buck, please don't listen to the show. That was it. Didn't worry about stats, didn't worry about anything. Had the PayPal buck, and of course PayPal got the 30 cents, whatever it was, and the guy made a great living doing that. And no stats, no downloads, all that stuff, didn't worry about it. Is this. As long as the money came in, he kept. He kept doing the show. So, you know, in some ways, this, this advertiser supported world is fantastic. In some ways, it's terrifying. You know, I've seen people succeed with it, really well. I've seen people not do well with it. I've seen people, honestly, personally scared, you know, you know, audible is good like me, but, you know, PayPal's not going to judge me for putting up a button. You know, bitcoin's not going to judge me for putting up a button. So is this a model for everybody? Is this the future of podcasting? Is this unique? You know, what's your take?

I mean, I tell people to at least try it because, like I said, the setup is so easy. And there's a lot of things that I don't have to deal with that other people do. So the contracts that you have to sign and being told what to say, although that said, they tell you what to say, so the pitch is a whole lot easier. The most uncomfortable part of what I do is when I ask people to give me money, I always feel like that person on the corner with the cup in their hand being like, please give me money, sir. It never feels good. So that's an uncomfortable part. At least with the advertising model, you're freed from that social awkwardness. But the contract negotiations and having to say something at certain times and just making Your show a little bit worse. I mean, I'm so. I'm just offended by ads. I hate that they're everywhere. And I do think that it brings down the quality of a show because who really wants to be talking about a mattress? So I do think that it's worth trying because you can't really lose, especially in the beginning of a podcast. Like I said, it was my only option at first. Now I'm turning away big advertisers, but at first it was my only option. So if you're in that situation, like, why not see if people will pay for it, but where the advertisers are paying so little per thousand. Also, I hope it's the future of podcasting. I really do. I think it's going to free a lot of us up to say exactly what we feel and not worry about offending some company, not towing any kind of line, or worrying about not being offensive. I think we need to be honest, and sometimes that offends people. Yeah. I don't know if it's the future, but I sure hope so.

It's the power. Power to the people. Sounds so passe. Sounds so rah, rah, rah into the first act of Les Miserables or something.

Yeah, it's freedom. It gives me an enormous amount of freedom. I mean, the things that I have said about some companies, like, here's a good example. I out that our emergency communication system for our first responders, we are mandated to build one, but instead of building one, our government has decided to just pay att. And so I had to do an entire episode where I really talked about AT&T and the history of AT&T and their history of being a monopoly. And I had to say some things to where AT&T could get mad at me, but I'm invincible to that. You know, they can't call Amazon or Audible or the mattress company or anything and be, hey, executive friend to executive friend. Like, stop sponsoring this chip. She's messing with our business. Like, I can say whatever I want as long as my listeners are getting something out of it. And it's an enormous amount of freedom to not have to worry about irritating my advertisers. Now, some people, they're talking about dogs and cats and they're not doing anything. Yeah. So for people like me that are talking about current events and do have to talk about companies and congressmen, and I need that freedom. Not everybody, maybe not everybody needs it, but it is so amazing to have it. And I think we need to protect that as Much as we possibly can as an industry.

I like it. I like it. All right, Jen, how do people find out about you? And then I try to make these shows as evergreen as possible and people go back into the back catalog pretty extensively. So which events, which physical events do you tend to go to? Tend, not go to. If someone were to hope to meet up with you at one of our events, if you will.

I never miss a podcast movement ever. I love that conference. I think it's the biggest one in the industry. As long as La podfest exists, I will also be at those. But yeah, podcast movement is the easiest way to find me for sure. And then in the digital world you can find me@contronicaldish.com and I'm very active on Twitter, Enbriney. Oh, and I have an Instagram now too. Enbriney, how's Instagram working for you? You know, I like it. It's definitely, I'm not doing anything political there. It's just a lot of pictures of my dog. But I do get to interact with my audience now in a way that has nothing to do with the government and I'm having more fun with it. So I'm liking Instagram. It's, it's a good little. And I like that it's not Facebook too because we don't get into big long debates with, you know, someone's grandmother. Yeah, the picture only thing I think it, it limits some of the, the social media anger that is sometimes directed at, at me. So yeah, I like Instagram.

Well, take a look@contronicaldish.com take a look at how she's done it. It is not a beautiful, gorgeous site designed by a fleet of, you know, man bun wearing designers.

Nope. It's a WordPress designed by a dope like me that knows nothing about web design.

But this is key. You know, so many, so many lines come out about, you know, the user experience. The user experience is people with you plugged into their ears and they need a follow up link or something. They come to the website that's fully functional and gets that done. And then if they want to send you something, they come to the website and find the address or the bitcoin link or that type of thing. And you know how many people on your staff?

Well, staff, that's an interesting word. I have a bunch of people working for me like part time. So my sister does a few things. I have a VA that maybe she works 10 hours a month. And then I have an audio editing staff. I hired Pro Podcast Solutions and that's Daryl Darnell's company and he's been amazing. We've worked together now for about three years. And then for promotion, I hired Interview Connections, which is Jessica Rhodes company, to introduce me to people because I have a solo show, so I don't really have a staff. I guess my sister is the only person that really works for Congressional Dish, but I have contractors that do specific tasks for me. But like a total of five people.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, thank you, Jen. This has been a pleasure. I'm sure people are going to reach out to you and I'll be interested to see what happens.

Thanks so much for having me.

Talk to you soon. And that was Jennifer Briney. I love the fact that she is seeing a real revenue stream, has a real podcast, it's a real business, and she's doing it so far out of any of the traditional models that I have chatted about, at least on this show in the past. Hats off, Jennifer. You are an inspiration. We've got links to her show and more at the show notes, which is thepodcastreport.com132 Would love to hear what you think about this one. If you head out there or do the social thing, I will pass the good stuff on to her. Thank you so much for listening. We'll chat next week. We love the social interaction here at The Podcast Report ThePodcastReport.com Facebook ThePodcastReport.com Twitter ThePodcastReport.com InsertSocialPlatform of your choice. We'd love to hear from you. Love to give you the chance to interact with other listeners of the show. Another thing we'd love to have you do is simply subscribe to the show, if you know what that means. Great. Head out to the podcatcher of your choice and subscribe to the show if you don't know what that means. Basically, all the big programs, itunes, Google, Stitcher, all of these platforms give you the ability to subscribe to the show like you'd subscribe to a magazine or a newspaper. And then the minute a new episode comes out, it comes to you automatically. It comes to you without worries about spam or that type of thing. And you don't have to visit the website. You don't have to go out to these platforms and see if there's something new. It comes to you automatically. Do that by subscribing thepodcastreport.com tuneinthepodcastreport.com Stitcher. You get the idea. Finally, last but not least, we do have an email address. It's the podcastreportoutlook.com. would love to hear from you. Chat with you next week. Bye.