John Lee Dumas Listened To His Audience Before The Advertisers - The Podcast Industry Report Episode #102

He listened to his audience and his gut and not the advertisers. And it's working. It's the Podcast Industry Report, Season 3, Episode 1 02. Who am I and what is this show? My name is Paul Colligan. I'm a big fan of the podcasting industry. This is a show about my passion, more than a decade of podcasting and podcast production under my belt. Author of a couple of number one books at Amazon about the topics of podcasting and new media. And as a day job, I run a boutique podcasting consultancy for some amazing clients. You've heard many of them. This is the Podcast Industry Report, the show where we show you the podcast how to reach more with your message, profit more from your content. We do that by understanding the industry that we are playing. In season three, the new focus is the podcast industry. I even changed the name of the show to the Podcast Industry Report. The big idea for this episode is that it's all about the listeners. And I've got a very special guest who kind of brings that all into perspective. So let's get to the guest, everybody. It's Paul Culligan. I'm on the Skype line with John Lee Dumas. Now, he's not doing the international thing today. He's actually in Maine, and it's raining hard. But how are you doing, buddy? Is that dousing the fire at all, Paul?

Just a little bit. But you know what? I'm on the call with you right now. I mean, how bad can life really be?

See, you're good. You're good, but I'll take it. And I'll afford a copy of this recording of my mom. So leadership is the theme of season three. You are a leader in this industry, and I've chatted in past episodes about your leadership in this industry. First of all, you. Thank you, buddy. You have shown us all what's possible. You have not only inspired us all, but outside of the Ra Ra Ra, you've given us the numbers, the charts, the training, the leadership where others can replicate your success. So, first of all, thank you.

Well, Paul, I definitely do receive that. I mean, I love this industry with all of my heart. I love podcasting and I do love the community, you know, for all of its flaws. I think we're pretty good. Good group of people. And I look forward to just seeing all of us grow.

Awesome. So August 4th, I get an email from you now, bulk email. And the topic is no more sponsors at the beginning of EO Fire.

Yeah.

And then you basically explained that you Know the whole pre roll thing, which is what they, well, what the advertisers want, what the industry expects, what is quote unquote the standard for many. You're killing it and you're not going to do it now. You're still going to have sponsors, but you're not going to do it at the beginning because the whole goal here is to bring people into the family, not, you know, douse them with ads if they ever get a chance to decide if they want to join. Give us a few, you know, what was your thinking there? Big picture. Then we'll go into specifics.

Let's go big picture. Which would be going back a little bit to 2012 when I launched the podcast, having no idea how I was ever going to monetize, if I was ever going to monetize. Fast, fast forward six months, guess what? I still hadn't monetized. I was now in the middle of 2013 actually April to be specific. And I get approached by my first sponsorship opportunity with a company that since exploded. But at the time they were only really representing a couple comedy shows. And I was going to be the first quote unquote business show they were going to try. Company called the Midroll and they have quite a story actually they've been acquired and this and that. It's been pretty interesting to see. But they came to me and said, hey, let's try some sponsors on your show. And I said, well listen, you tell me how this works because I have no idea idea. And they said, well listen, this is how it works. You can have really a maximum of 2 pre rolls around 15 seconds at the beginning of your show. You can do two mid rolls in the middle. If you want to throw a couple out rolls at the end you can, but nobody really wants to pay for those because blah blah, blah. And I was like, okay, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm looking to monetize. I hope that my audience realizes they're getting free, valuable and consistent content and I'm busting my hump doing it. So I hope they realize that a couple sponsors is paying the bills. It's keeping the lights on literally at that time, I mean again, I now gone six months without a dime coming in business and it was all that I was doing. So we gave it a whirl. I in April of 2013 had my first full month of full sponsors. The total dollar amount that came in from that month was $12,000, which blew my mind. I was like, I can't believe I can generate this much revenue just from sponsors, just on a podcast. Of course, the reason why the number was so high, Paul, is because you can multiply everything by 30. With my show because it's a daily show, so I wasn't making a ton per episode, per spons, multiplying it by 30. It was adding up to real money. And that's how my show remained for three years. 2013 into 14 into 15 into 16. And I always pretty much had on probably 95% of those shows. Two pre rolls at the beginning with 15 seconds, 15 seconds. Two mid rolls right before the lightning round, which the mid roll in. EO fires about the 70% mark, so it's not really the true middle of the show. And then every now and then I'd have some out rolls as well. And. And my show is making anywhere from 70 to my highest month, actually, when I just sold everything out was $127,000 just in sponsorship revenue, but probably closer to 80 to 90,000 average per month for sponsorships, which was huge and amazing and I was loving it. But what I wasn't loving was I felt like in some point in 2016, I hit a little bit of a plateau numbers wise. My show had always been growing very slowly but very steadily. I crossed the million listens per month plateau. And it seemed like I just was kind of stuck there, like around 1.1, 1.2 million listens for months and months and months. And I really decided to do a deep dive on my show and say, hey, what's working, what's not? And when I tried to come at the show from a new listener's perspective, you know, kind of take myself out of what I knew about the show and really just approach it from like, hey, what if I just heard somebody say, hey, hey, John, you know, my name's Paul. Like, there's this great show called EO Fire. You should check it out. What if I want to listen to that show? And I. And I tried to go there with like novice years. And to be honest with you, when I did that, I was like, man, I just pressed the play button and I heard, you know, EO fire episode 1400. And then bam, 99 designs and then bam, Squarespace. I'm like, why did Paul just recommend this show to me? Then this guy's just like hitting me in the face with two ads right away. It's to me the equivalent of going to like a website and getting two pop ups before you get to go anywhere. You know, let's call out Forbes.com I mean I'm never going back to your website because you're miserable for all of those reasons. And I just didn't have a good taste in my mouth from my own show and I was like, wow, what am I doing here? Like I'm creating a show to gain listeners to inspire those listeners to take action. And I don't even know if I was a new listener, if I would keep listening to the show and if I did I'd probably have a slightly bad tinged taste in my mouth from those first two. Wabap wabap ad ad in my face. So I said, you know what? Revenue in this case be damned. And I will say I was lucky to be able to say that. And I'm not trying to diminish it.

Don't talk about the revenue yet. I've actually we're gonna bring that up in a second. Want to. This is what they call a tease if you will, but don't talk about the revenue yet.

I'm with you brother, I'm with you. You know, but I did have multiple revenue streams so I wasn't like just needing to do that. And so I said, you know what, I'm just going to go for pure listening experience alone here and I want to make sure that my listeners are going to be hooked to the show before they kind of get a nice little sponsorship read in their earbuds, so to speak. So I did approach the Midroll, who's still the company that represents me and they weren't happy about it. They said, hey, this is going to hurt your reven, going to hurt our revenue, this is going to hurt all of that stuff. And I said okay, I get it. But I'm more concerned about growing my show. And I go, honestly I do and I do believe this, I think this is a long term pro because I do think this is going to grow my listenership down the road so that even though I'm not having those quote unquote pre rolls, I'm going to be getting more for the mids and the post. So decided to make the switch and just offer and this was as of August 1, 2016 to offer just two mid roles and two post roles on Entrepreneur on fire, nothing more.

So you're definitely a leader. But so is Midroll. Yeah, and so is the advertising industry. They quote unquote know what works, they know what people buy, they know what people act to. Midroll has more depth of knowledge of the industry as a whole than you do. Yet you told them no, thank you. This is the way we're going to do it.

Yes.

You were big enough name, big enough situation that they took it on and they did what they did. And then for those of you who. For the three people left on the planet who don't know, John, John does something really special at his website. He does what he calls the income reports. And this is how he's done at his website, the entirety of his business. And over time, they're not just there, but they're there historically, which is always fascinating because you can. You can learn a lot and trends and whatnot there. And let's put this in perspective. So, June 2016, 67k in sponsor revenue, little over 2k a day. Not bad.

Yeah.

July, 81.5k in revenue, a little less than 3k a day. Not bad at all. I don't think anybody or 3K per episode, you know, even. Even for the person who does the weekly episode, I think 3K an episode would make a lot of people really, really happy. August, you change the whole game. The most lucrative slots, the things that people pay the most for, the stuff that the industry wants that the leaders of Midroll said, this is what you got to do. You jumped to 87k, buddy. You did better in August when you went rogue than you did in June or July. And I didn't go all the way back, but I figured a quarter is a good way to look at this now. June, 214k gross. July, 166k gross. August, 196k gross. Interesting thing, percentage wise, this is the thing that always gets me is June, 31% of your revenue was sponsorships. So when you were doing it right, 31% of your revenue was sponsorships. In July, when you were doing it right, 48% of your revenue was sponsorships. In August, when you were doing it wrong, 44% of your revenue was sponsorships. It really didn't change much in terms of the big picture, yet you changed everything in terms of the format and in terms of the industry telling you what it is that you need to do. Now, this is interesting from a lot of standpoints, but the thing that intrigued me the most, and this is the thing that you've been talking about and doing since the very beginning, and for me, this is the theme of this entire season, is you knew what your audience needed the most. And by knowing what your audience needed the most, you really actually even knew how to get the most revenue from them. And I think this is the thing that people forget you Know, treating your audience right means the money might go down. No, it didn't happen in this case. You treated your audience right and the money went up. Talk about that.

So it is interesting. I love that you pulled out those numbers, and I think they're really fascinating. And in fact, the, you know, the percentage of overall revenue is not even numbers that I've actually tracked. So I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. That's something that I really think I am going to have my team put as a little Excel spreadsheet column going forward, because that's. That is a really important number, and I love that. What I do think I do have to say about this is, right now, EO Fire is a very in demand podcast. I have a lot of sponsors that want to sponsor my show. I have a lot of sponsors that we have to say no to. I have a lot of sponsors that have been patiently waiting in line. Now, I will say that there were some sponsors who are like, John, we're not really thrilled with the fact that nobody's going to hear our product service fill in the blank until 70% of the way through your show, when we know a lot of people don't even finish podcasts, or some people, you know, drop off at 40, 50, 80, whatever it might be. And they did voice some concern with that. And I said, listen, I understand, and if your concern is that big, then you're going to have to find another show that's going to service you, because this is how it is going to be for the foreseeable future, because this is my commitment right now, and this is where I am absolutely going to be keeping my entrepreneur on fire from this point going forward. So they, you know, kind of shook their heads. Nobody actually walked away from it. But I will say there's a lot of people who are tracking right now very carefully what the numbers are. So I don't think it's super fair. Again, I know it makes the numbers you just shared make us look good, like, this really worked, and I really hope these continue to be the truth. But because there hasn't had a chance for the sponsors to really track what their ROI is and what their conversions are going to be, I think it's a little early, and I mean, we're.

Only a month into this.

We're only a month into it. I think six, eight, ten months down the road once sponsors have real data that says, hey, we remember what it was like before August 1st with John. These are what our numbers were. And now these are what our numbers have been like, for the past three, four, five months. And if the ROIs don't match up, then they're going to really start saying, john, hey, we were hoping that this was going to work and it's just not. We're pulling or, john, hey, this actually is still working. Like, let's, let's, let's stay friends. I'm obviously hoping for the latter, but I do think there's going to be a little bit of a time for these companies that realize if they pull out, they're losing their spot with eofire and there's a truckload of people looking to fill in. Like, for instance, real quick side note, 99designs had like this management change like four or five months ago, and they said, hey, we're going to put a pause on sponsorships for now for podcasts. And then a new company came in DesignCrowd that does the exact same thing that 99designs does. And now 9.9designs are trying to get back in for the last two or three months and they can't because this company is like, we're not giving up our spot. You know, why would we? Because we're crushing it right now with, you know, EO Fire. That's an example of where I think companies are willing to take the chance. Now it's going to come down to testing the ROI down the road.

So it's a year later, Midroll comes to you and says the sponsors aren't happy. Now, I realize in a year a lot of things can happen. If we look at the last year of your life, a lot of things have happened. It's impossible to guess things out. But gut reaction, in a year, they tell you they're not happy. What are you gonna do?

Honestly, my gut reaction is I'm gonna say mid roll. If we have the real data and it's been a year and the numbers just aren't working, let's lower the cpm. And what that means is I'm actually going to remain with two mid rolls and two post rolls. They're just gonna cost less. So it's going to change the ROI per sponsor per episode. So if it might have cost a sponsor $1,400 before to buy a minute in a post, and now maybe we'll say, hey, we're going to bring it down to 900 bucks. So I'm much more willing to lower how much it's going to cost to sponsor EO Fire than I am going before I bring back the pre roll now again. And I know we're going to talk about this a little bit more later, but I'm fortunate to be in a situation where although sponsorship revenue is a big part of my overall revenue and it's very important and I would never discount that, we could take away sponsorship revenue right now for EO Fire and bring it down to zero and we would still run a very happy, healthy and profitable. Of course I want to keep it very strong where it is right now, those numbers that you shared earlier. But it could go away. And I'm honestly at this point and again, you know, I'm not committing to anything forever, but I'm willing at this point to let the sponsorship revenue dry up and die right now to go to the vision of growing the overall listenership of EOFIRE and focusing on that. And just as you might have noticed, Paul, is when August 1 started, I didn't like bring in, you know, I don't know. I no longer have two pre rolls for 15 seconds each, but I do, I do a quick hey guys. John Lee Dumas, welcome to episode 1423 of EO Fire. By the way, if you need to accomplish a goal, visit thefreedomjournal.com and you can crush your number one goal today. Let's welcome our guest, Paul Colligan. So now I'm starting to kind of use that very valuable time and I'm not, you know, I'm five, seven seconds at most where I'm just mentioning that in a quick link, I'm now kind of directing people towards my products and my services, which the Freedom Journal 30, $33,000 last month alone is a big revenue generator itself.

Yes, JLD now gets, for lack of a better term, the pre roll.

Yes, exactly.

And the thing that's interesting is JLD to get the pre roll make sense in the flow of the show because what you've done so impressively is you've made it bigger than the show. You've got the products and services, so to speak to Freedom Journal, to speak to some of the other products that are coming out as part of the initial beginning makes sense. Whereas that pattern interrupt of a third party company, no matter how great they are, you've always had good sponsors. I've always appreciated how you haven't had the sleazy people who want to spend one month to suck what they can out of podcasting. But now your pre roll is you. Your products, your services, your story, your dialogue, your discourse. And it makes sense. The flow is there. It's really, really, really easy. And I like that. Thoughts There.

It feels good, Paul. Like, it really now feels good every morning when I wake up. And I'm not just saying this. It really feels good when I wake up in the morning and. And I'm like, wow, an EO Fire episode just went live and somebody pressed play somewhere around the world. And they did not just get, you know, slammed over the head with two 15 seconds pattern interrupts, as I think you really well put. They instead got me introducing the show live, because those are live reads. You know, I'm saying, hey, guys, this is John Lee Dumas, and welcome to episode 1423. By the way, this is, you know, whatever, you know, I'm about to launch Self Mastery Journal, whatever it might be that I mentioned that it's not like that pattern interrupt, like, like 15 second block that I'm inserting. It's a very flowy. It's, you know, my listener. I mean, sorry, my guest on that show is hearing me say that because I'm introducing as part of my introduction of them to the show. And it flows. And I wake up in the morning and I'm like, that's just. I know that somebody pressed play and they just got a really good, well done, healthy intro to EO Fire. And then they were, boom. Like it's at second 17. They were into the show, and that just. It feels right to me.

Now I've got a device right here on my desk, and I can't say her name out loud because she'll respond and it'll happen live. Alexa, don't do that. And she. Soon, I hear rumor and obvious. It's just obvious. If you think about it, the world of podcasting will be coming to her. And we're going to come into our office in the morning and we're going to say, hey, play this episode or play this or try this. You know, the. The world of the Pandora ing. I think what Stitcher's always tried to do but hasn't yet been able to pull off is coming very, very quickly. And, you know, I don't know about you, but I got a lot of podcasts on my phone when I am driving around town, you know, trying to catch up on things. And if the show just becomes one ad after another. I think your example of Forbes is exactly true. You know, at some point, I just want to listen to the content. I mean, I get that you have to have the ads, but come on, let's. Let's make this fair. I'm another leader that I haven't chatted with him yet. So we're not going to say by name, but he's been looking at launching a new piece of tech. And he sent out a survey, and the survey was basically, you know, what is the revenue from your show? What is the revenue model from your show? And he gave choices. It was a multiple choice. Pick the ones that you want. It was donors, it was ads at the website, it was sponsors, etc. He didn't have an other, and he didn't have anything for selling your own products and services. And I thought that was odd. So I reached out to him on Twitter and I said, hey, I appreciate what you're doing. I love what you got here. But you didn't really list selling your own products and services as, you know, a monetization strategy. And I'm curious why. And he responded and he said, well, that's not really a monetization strategy as much as it is just you advertising yourself.

Thoughts? So every week I do a completely free podcast masterclass, right? It's get on. It's a free Google Hangout. Anybody that wants to join can. Typically, we have between 100 to 200 people on, and I just go through an entire presentation on podcasting, how to create, grow, and monetize. When I get to the monetization section, I list my top five in ascending order. So I end with my favorites. And every single time that I end that monetization with my favorite, the favorite is creating your own products. And I go into a rant on it every single masterclass because I'm so passionate about it. I'm like, listen, when you create a podcast, you are creating free, valuable and consistent content. What that turns into is you being able to build an audience around that free, valuable, and consistent content. Then you can ask that audience that you're building what are you struggling with? And then they can come back to you with their pain points or obstacles or challenges or struggles. And then you, the podcast host, the person that they know like and trust, the voice that's been in their head, you know, hopefully for weeks and months and maybe even years, you know, that voice of trust is gonna create the solution for them in the form of a product or a service or potentially a community. And that is how Podcasters paradise was built. That's how Webinar on Fire was built. That's how the Freedom Journal, which, you know, became the sixth most funded publishing campaign of all time on Kickstarter. $450,000 in 33 days for, by the way, a $39 product. Because I asked my audience what they're struggling with. They told me, john, we don't know how to create our own podcast, or we don't know how to create our own webinars, or just we're really struggling with goals. I created the solution for them, I handed it to them, and it is the best way, in my opinion, to monetize a podcast slash audience.

Now, you say that and I've been preaching that. So, you know, we both agree, but we're looking at July here. I'm looking at the spreadsh, and sponsors was 48% in the month of July. So sponsors aren't to. Aren't to laugh at here. What is the balance?

There's definitely a balance because for me, if you can't first build the audience, then you really can never get to the point where you're going to have any kind of a balance. So if I hadn't had that six months of no revenue, of definitely no sponsors, building eo Fire, building, Fire Nation as an audience, I never would have been able to get to the point of asking any semblance of people, what are you struggling with? So for me, there definitely was a balance where I said, listen, I know that I can put great products and services of other companies in front of Fire Nation if I can do it in a JLD kind of way, where it's in my own words and my own personality and their products and services that I believe in. But at the same time, you know, I want to, I want to make sure that I'm growing my business so that I'm able to stand on my own two feet with my own products, with my own services. And when those start to get to a point where I think they're, you know, rivaling or better in some scenarios than other people's products and other companies, products and services, that's what I'm gonna start to do. What I started to shift into in August of 2016, where now my products and my services get the priority. One of my pre rolls, you know, if you want to call it a pre roll, it's just one of my, you know, things. I like to actually refer to it as this. One of my calls to action during my intros is, hey, guys, if you're looking to podcast, visit freeupodcastcourse.com that gets between 40 to 80 sometimes subscribers a day to that course. And those are people that I can email on a weekly basis and say, hey, by the way, I'm launching, I'm starting my podcast masterclass in 15 minutes, which is a Free masterclass. And then on that masterclass, I'm spending no money on Facebook ads, no money on any, any sponsorship ads of any kind. And I'm getting 100 or 200 people live on there. And I'm converting anywhere from 10 to sometimes up to 20 people into podcasters paradise, you know, which is over a thousand dollar investment over the course of the first year. So it's something that's working incredibly well when you do it the right way.

It's, it's, you know, we're, we're, and we've, we've dated this episode. It's, it's September 2016, we're entering into an election season and the one thing everybody has in common is they always think the other guy is going to take away everything. So let's, let's throw a post apocalyptic scenario at you here, okay? It's one year later and it is illegal to do both ads and your own product. So 48% of your revenue by doing, quote unquote, nothing other than recording your show or 51% of your revenue by creating products and services. Which one would you take?

Is not even a hesitation. It's 100% my products and services all the time. It's something that I control. Something on my platform for sponsorships. You know, there's a lot of negatives there. There's turnover, there's feast and famine, there's people that come in with high expectations. I just got off a 35 minute phone call right before this call, Paul, with HP, you know, a huge company that's looking to break into this space, but they're like, you know, we want to run like a two episode test. And I'm like, that's not going to work. I'm just going to tell you that's not going to work. And so like, there's a lot of people that just don't get it and they're, they're not going to get it for a long time. And by the way, I'm not talking bad about HP because they're probably going to be a sponsor. And guess what? I think I convinced them to run a much longer spot on the show because of that conversation that I had with them. But you know, those are the kind of things. It's like, do I want to rely on other companies making decisions or do I want to rely on my audience telling me what they're struggling with and then me, and then by the way, relying on me to create that solution for their problem, for their struggle? And it's definitely the latter all the way.

Well, you just summed up. I'm going to go back here. That's going to be the quote card for this episode here. I've always said that the only problem with new media is when we try to treat it like old media. Ads are great. Sponsors are fantastic, not only from a revenue standpoint, but also just from a legitimization standpoint. To have a great company like HP come on board and join you for a long run, you know, is good and it's solid. It introduces them to your audience. It introduces you to their audience. It's good. But. And I just want to stress this, you did it the JLD way and not the way that everybody else said. And here's another perfect example. This wasn't in my notes, but HP came and said, we want to do a short run. And he said, nope, that's not going to work. And you took the leadership because you know your audience. You took the leadership because you know the experience. You took the leadership and are willing to. I mean, the HP money would be good, but you're willing to lose it in exchange for a better experience. And I think that's something that gets lost. I know Inside of Paradise how many episodes before I start getting my advertisers, and how much this before I get this, and how much this before I get this. And you're fantastic because you're always, what does your audience want to do? What does your audience need? What is your audience looking for? What are their hungers? What are their fears? But what's interesting is, and I just can't stress this enough, you did it your way. Not because you're a snot, but you did it your way because this is what's going to serve the audience, that's going to build the audience. The Journal. What's amazing about the Journal is you've got people using the Journal who have never, ever listen to an episode of your show. I think this is key. You know, you've got people selling with webinars who've gone through your webinar course, who have never, ever listened to the show. You're building an industry outside of this podcast, maybe with people who will never listen, but still taking that audience what they need, what they want and what they're looking for. And this is just vital. And I think it's missed everyone's the quick and easy solution. What's the formula? How many points, how many downloads, what cpm, that kind of thing. It's not that. It's understanding your audience. Understanding your purpose, understanding your role in the midst of all this. And I just, I don't know, I want to hear your thoughts on that, but I just want to congratulate you and I want to thank you for taking that position because I think it's necessary.

Well, thank you. And I really do take that role very seriously. And you know, to kind of maybe even go a little further down what we were talking about with hp, because I really like the points that you brought up is I even went back to them and I said, listen, guys, like I want to give you a real example. Three years ago, eVoice came and they want us to do a short run. And number one, I said, listen, guys, you know, you're going to have to take, you know, four, five, six episodes to convince, like, really cutting edge entrepreneurs, you know, that we need some kind of phone answering service. Like, that just feels old, it feels dated. It's going to take some time, it's going to take some testing, it's going to take some structure. And sure enough, after two, three months, this is three years ago, eVoice was not impressed with the ROI that they were getting. And I said, well, guys, either do this, you guys need to cut tail and run, and I'm fine with that because you got to do what's best for you. Or we can work on the call to action. We can work on continuing to put this in front of Fire Nation and make you sound edgier and more with it and more of a big benefit for entrepreneurs of today. And we worked on it and they stuck with it. And they've been sponsors now for over three years. They dedicate almost all of their disposable revenue that they, I mean, their disposable advertising spend on podcasts now. And a big one is of eofire because it just works, but it's not going to snap and come overnight. And so I really want to get that message across to people in podcasters paradise that are like, okay, just how many people do I need to get to before I can start bringing on sponsors? That's not the right question. The right question is when can I bring the right products and services in front of my listeners? That's going to add value to the podcast, is going to increase listenership because it's an overall better show and the same to the sponsors. I don't want to, to set HP up for failure. I don't want them to think that they're gonna be able to put two episodes down. I even said these words, I'M like, guys, right now, people think you're IBM. They think you're Compaq. They think you're just a corporation serving corporations. It's gonna take time for us to change that perception, that they're going to actually say, okay, HP is for me. And we talked it through, and it took time. But I think that that's, you know, what a leader does. You know, I'm giving them examples. I'm willing to lose their business because I know that what we're going to come out with is going to be right for EO Fire. Either not having HP on because they're not willing to do it the right way, or having them on the right way. And that's the only way that I want them on with my show.

Give me, as we close this out, the sound bite or the text for the quote card here, what does the average. And I'm going to say entrepreneurial podcaster, obviously what you're doing is very different than a, you know, a gimlet or someone who's producing content specifically for the generation of sponsor revenue. But for the entrepreneurial podcaster, the type who tends to listen to this show, what can they learn about what you've done?

They can learn from what I've done, honestly, that it's all about the listener. If you can focus every bit of your show on your listener, you're going to win. And not tomorrow and not in six months, and maybe not even next year, but you're going to win in the long run. And from day one, my listener was Jimmy. I could go on about him and Paul. I know that you've heard me give my rant on Jimmy, it hasn't changed. And guess what? My focus hasn't changed either. When I really sat back and realized back in August of 2016 that Jimmy was going to listen to my show for the first time and be like. I was like, wow, I need to recalculate here and recalibrate the show. And that's what I did. So it's all about the listener.

What I love in that is Jimmy hasn't changed. No, but everything else has.

Yeah.

You know, and a kudos for understanding who your audience was before you launched and not jumping around. Well, it's Jimmy. And in August, it'll be Jane and. And in December, it will be Frank, and in March, it will be Bob. You always had Jimmy. You always built this for Jimmy. What was neat was Jimmy's needs. Jimmy didn't change, but Jimmy's needs did. And you built a show around it. And as a result, the profit is coming, the revenue is coming, and it's so much more exciting than a CPM ad war bid for as many weeks as they'll take it before they leave and go to the next thing. You're building a real business here, not a shell game of ad dollars. And it's neat to see. And I just want those of you who are listening, those of you who love John dearly and respect what he's done, those of you who have put the word fire in your show and somehow jumped to seven episodes a week, all the way through to those who see you as a leader, to realize that this understanding and this embracing and this sometimes just kicking back in the hammock and pondering you're Jimmy is the future of this space. I think the initial question how do I break through that level of a million listeners a month to something else? I think that's important. What are the holes in my show that are getting in the way? What are the issues that are preventing me from going to that next level? But it's all about Jimmy. It's all about what Jimmy needs. And John's here to lead us. John, I'm going to give you the final word and then we'll close out. But.

Well, I will take the final word here and thank you for that because you've really been focusing on a few what I think are very important numbers throughout this episode. And as I kind of tried to bring up, I think that those numbers are really important. And I think you and I probably really need to put on the calendar eight, ten months down the road, jump back on and let's talk about the numbers at that point too, because that to me is really what's going to going to be telling when we actually have some hardcore data. And I'd love to come back on and chat with you because we always have such a blast. Something I will share at the end here is August was by far, and I do mean by far my biggest download month ever. I had in July a little under 1.5 million listens on the show, as per Libsyn. And in August I did 2.1 million listens, which was my biggest listens month ever. And that's by a good percentage over my second biggest month, which was July. And I will say that September is going to be my second biggest month ever. It's not going to be as big as August, but it is going to outpace July pretty easily and will rest somewhere between 1.7 and 1.9 million depending on how we finish the month. And I'm really hoping that this is because of the new format and people are now more excited to share the show because they're just like, hey, like, I don't want to share a show to somebody. And then they get hit over the head with two ads right away because then I look like a jerk. And that's what I'm hoping. And that's my whole premise behind why I'm putting the listener first and the listening experience at the priority of everything that I do with Eofire right now. Again, it's too early to tell the data. It's too early. But six, seven, eight months from now, if I'm consistently seeing a growth where again, I was for months plateaued, then I know that I will have made the right decision. So I love that you're a numbers guy, Paul. I'm a numbers guy. I think the listeners you have to realize always be analyzing your numbers to see what works and don't just make assumptions because that's, I think, the biggest mistake. So love chatting with you, Paul, as always.

That was the one and only John Lee Dumas. Thank you, John, for doing the show. If you learned anything, get to know your audience. Listen to your audience, know what's best for them, serve them. The revenue is there and the revenue from that is bigger and better than traditional ad inserts. So you can do this. John's not the only one. And the secret is not getting a show out seven days a week. The secret is not putting the name Fire in your podcast description. The secret is in doing what John did, listening to your audience. You can find out more about John and everything mentioned in this episode@the podcastreport.com1:02 if you want to do the social thing, the podcastreport.com Twitter, the podcastreport.com Facebook, any of your favorite social platforms, they are there. We'd love you to subscribe to the show. We'd love you to get episodes as they come out. When they come out automatically. That's done by subscribing the podcastreport.com iTunes is the easiest place, the most popular place. Yeah, chatted about that last week. But the podcastreport.com stitcher, the podcastreport.com tunein, thepodcastreport.com Google they are all there. I don't care what platform you listen on. I just care that you listen and you learn how to reach more with your message, profit more from your content. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast report we'll do this again next week.

Week.

Bye.