Sophia Hwang-Judiesch & Peter Hwang

Welcome to Growth Untold, the podcast where we dive into thoughtful conversations and insightful discussions with world-class people, all with the aim of inspiring, educating, and empowering our listeners.

We are thrilled to have you here with us on this exciting journey to explore the diverse stories and the ideas that have the power to shape the world for the better.

Welcome to Growth Untold, the podcast.

Today, we're fortunate enough to be speaking to the siblings Peter Hwang and Sophia Hwang Judish.

Peter Hwang is a seasoned entrepreneur and leader with over 2 decades of experience in the space. As the CEO of Tradish, Peter is reshaping the culinary landscape with his innovative community-based platform. Peter's journey has led him to several successful exits and remarkable achievements. Welcome to the show, Peter.

Thank you for having me.

He made you sound really cool there, by the way. Yeah, I hope mine sounds as cool.

That's why I didn't have him edit.

You just gotta, you gotta wait for your introduction.

Here we go. Okay.

Our second guest, we have Sophia Wong Judish, a true global powerhouse, having made her mark across not one, not two, not three, but 4 countries. Sophia's career includes roles such as VP and country manager of Ulta Beauty, as well as leadership positions at Carter's and Esprit. Now Sophia is the president of Tommy Hilfiger North America. Welcome to the show.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. I know that was pretty good. I like the powerhouse part.

That was good. It's all about the nouns.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

And the adjectives.

Wonderful.

Well, thank you so much for, for coming to this show. Yeah. Thanks for having us. It's rare that we have such, uh, 2 accomplished siblings come on the show, but I think we want to start off with the obvious question here. Like, did you— what was in the water that you guys drank growing up? All right. You guys are such incredibly successful individuals.

I don't know. You want to start?

Well, I, I think it's, um, number one, I don't think we feel— we were just talking about this, like, we don't feel successful, right? So maybe that's the key, is that you feel like you constantly have to keep reaching and challenging. But I do think, you know, Peter and I talk about this a lot, about the immigrant story, which we know is a very, a very quintessential Canadian story of seeing your— I think there's something to be said when you see your parents struggle, where typically you're used to seeing your parents sort of be the role model and so forth. And they were our role models, but they were our role models when it came to working really hard and striving and wanting more. And so I do think there's something about that piece of it that I think has shaped both Peter and I, where we felt like we needed to do right by our parents' struggle and be successful and try the best we could, right? With all opportunities given. I don't know, would you say that?

Yeah. Every immigrant, I think, goes through this typical story.

Yeah.

I don't think ours is like tremendously different other than the fact that like you and I have lived it, right? So we've gone through the—

I mean, we grew up in Rexdale, And I think it was— you had to learn how to fight.

Yeah, you get your stripes when you're talking about Rexdale.

It was tough.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's funny.

Shout out to Rexdale. I don't want to be criticizing Rexdale, but it was tough. I mean, that was like—

Shout out to Rexdale. Beaumont Avenue, actually.

So can you give us a decade? Like, when was this?

Yeah, 1970s. Late '70s.

Yeah.

So my parents moved from Atlanta. So they moved from South Korea in the '60s to— which was weird. They went to Atlanta, Georgia, in the US.

Wow.

So I was born in Atlanta, Georgia.

I was born in Atlanta as well.

Yeah. And then we came here when we were 1 year old.

I came here when I was 1. Yeah.

And I was like 5. And we— my parents didn't have a lot, so they actually showed up at Rexdale, Bergamot Avenue. And it was—

Public housing.

Public housing.

Public community housing.

Really, really tough. Right. And the only— I would say— I was about to say Asian family there, but it was the only— we're the only family of color. Like, we were the only family of color. Right. So. That probably kind of shapes a little bit of the whole thing of wanting more and knowing that you need to get out of your circumstance. And I would say that's how we felt, right?

Yeah, we grew up with very scrappy parents, and it was the type of thing where our, I guess, dad was always kind of working and mom was trying her best to work while at the same time take care of us.

Yeah.

So I can honestly say it was like, that was probably a very tough circumstance because I was kind of raised by you guys, right? You and Teresa.

Yeah, which is crazy. 'Cause I'm not responsible, trust me. Like, so yeah.

So are you, are you the young— like you have 2 older sisters?

Yeah.

So you're like me. You're like me. I have 2 older sisters.

There you go.

And did they take care of you? Yeah.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, all of us. That's crazy.

This is why there's this connection.

But yeah, it's, I always feel like it's almost like you strive to succeed to justify your parents' struggle. You know what I mean? Like they left everything they knew. Like my parents, I know they could have probably had a better, life for themselves in Egypt, but they chose to immigrate to have a better life for us. And it's almost like you strive to just justify their struggle, to be like, this didn't all go to vain. Like, I'm going to do the best that I can do. So how was your upbringing? And I'll start with you, Peter, in the sense of like your journey. Like, did you know that entrepreneurship, VCs, that's what you wanted to do when you were younger, or how did you get to it?

No, not at all. So, so going back to the parents, like our parents were first-generation immigrants here, but they were university educated. So it's very, it's very, very typical immigrant story where they come here. And this is back in the '70s, right? So there's no Uber or fractional gig work to transfer your education here. So it was like very much they settled, they settled for— and it's a very typical Korean stereotype, but they owned a convenience store, they worked in a factory, and they bought a Baskin-Robbins. And I actually remember that day pretty vividly. I was—

how old was I?

I don't know, I was like 8, maybe 7. But I remember my father being so proud because it was like almost his way to have freedom to provide for the family.

And when you say about the pride, he was wearing— and at that time, you know, the uniforms changed— it was the Baskin-Robbins, like, ice cream-colored stripes uniform that he was like putting on. And showing such pride of wearing it. Like, it could make me emotional thinking about it.

Yeah, for sure.

Because he was— it was a signal of he was his own.

Yeah.

But I wouldn't even go back further from that. So basically, I remember there was this picture that they had where they had this orientation, business orientation, where everyone, all the new franchisee owners would come. And in that picture, my dad was the only one wearing a suit. Everyone else was like, had golf shirts on.

Why did he not show you then?

Well, it's because it was like, for him, it was like the proudest moment of his life almost to start this new chapter of his life. And I don't know, I hate to say it, but It probably didn't. It fades really quickly.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because it's the whole premise of Behind, and I'm going to talk about it later on, but retail, food, hospitality, it's just a freaking hard life, right?

It's a grind.

It's a grind. So I think from the perspective of like losing the luster, so to speak, is that he just learned pretty quickly that it was— yeah.

It's a hard way to make money.

It is a hard way to make money, and you have to eat a lot of humble pie and realize that everything you thought You know, was your, like, for lack of a better term, your next chapter in life that would pave the way for you, like, in your ideal state, is not necessarily that.

Yeah. So, I mean, we, we talk about this a little bit, but, you know, uh, when I booked Aladdin, um, you know, everybody thought that that was it. Like, I was gonna become a millionaire overnight, that there was no going back, there was no looking back. It was like, this is it. Like, this is done. And you realize very quickly that you're like, Oh man, I've got more work to do than I thought I ever would at this stage. You know, because I think that's something about being ambitious is that you kind of, you get to where you want to go and then you've already set like 5 or 6 goals after that. Like before you even get to your first goal, you're like, yeah, I already know like my next 3, 4 goals. Like I've already got to get, and those are even harder and those are even further away. So now I got to hustle even more. And my dad was a satellite engineer too and came to Canada and that all went away. He had to deliver pizzas, work at a factory to take care of his kids and his wife. So I understand all that. So then you saw your dad doing this growing up and you decided, I wanna go into food, or what was that?

No, not at all. So it's funny 'cause I remember they did the typical, like, I'm gonna move my family out of the projects a very affluent area, you know? And so we moved to one of the most affluent areas in Mississauga. And at the time, it was the most humble, smallest house in Mississauga, very, very white Caucasian neighborhood. So I went from like literally living in the projects to like literally hanging out with nothing but white kids my entire life, like literally like all the way up to high school. So, and again, that's probably the, you know, the one thing you gotta thank them for. And I think you probably, you and I have this like almost trauma a little, a little bit around it, 'cause they sacrificed a lot for us. But in the same respect, Um, we saw the struggles that they had, and I, I was just, you know, like I said, I was surrounded. I was always the most— um, I was—

You were always like the— you were tough, right?

I was tough, but I was tough because, like, I was forced into tough situations. Like, I was the only minority in my group growing up, always. So I just— I got in fights all the time.

Eating different food.

That— and that is— this is— that's a whole other topic that we can discuss. Like, I remember, yeah, being the kid that would bring in Korean food.

Which is like, let's just say shout out to Korean food now because it's like super popular and everyone cares about it. Like, they like it now and kimchi's like cool and it's fermented and it's good for you. Wasn't cool like when in the '80s, let's just say that, right?

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

Yeah, yeah. So I get in fights just on that alone, right? So it's like, anyway, I think going back to the whole food commentary, it wasn't so much the food I was looking to start a business around, it was just the scrappiness around like food entrepreneurs. So we saw our parents struggle. I saw my parents, my dad struggle. I saw my mom struggle. They both worked there 24/7. If I wasn't working in the business, it was like trying to figure out how to survive in the business. So they worked 25 years, 365 days. I think the hours were like 10 AM to 10 PM, like literally every day. And my dad went in at Christmas time too, right, to make cakes. So it was like there wasn't any family vacations, there wasn't any dinners and stuff like that. It was just a— it was just— I'm not going to try to say it was a hard, hard life to the extent of like we got to where we need to get to, but we just saw the sacrifices that they made.

Yeah.

So going around the entire entrepreneurial side of the business, like I've had, you know, multiple different startups, but Tradish very specifically around food is more trying to solve the problem for food entrepreneurs and the struggle of that small subscale food entrepreneur.

Which I think probably is the most meaningful Business you've you've you've created, right?

Yeah, it's the only one that I really have where I deliberately and intentionally said there's a problem here. I saw my parents go through it. We saw our parents go through it, and if there's anything any industry that I know has problems that we can potentially have a solution for, this is it.

Well, it sounds very very personal to you. So explain what is tradition and what are you trying to do? Like I read up a little bit on it, but I didn't totally get it to be honest. It sounded like it's like sis is it? Like Cisco, the big player in this space. Like what are you trying to do with Tradish? What what problem does it solve?

Yeah, no, the biggest problem that we have is like every and use my parents as an example, but every small subscale food entrepreneur, it's very difficult to run a business. Like start a business, run a business. Every small food operator is running single digit margins, and this is back in like this happened pre COVID. Like even when COVID didn't exist, everyone was struggling to run a business. They're running single digit margins because it was tough for labor costs. It was tough for bricks and mortar costs. It was tough for Just food costs in general, and then now COVID hits, and three and a half million people are displaced, like two hundred thousand restaurants, and they were all small mom-and-pop restaurants that were closed down.

And is this Canada numbers or U.S.?

Those are North American numbers, so Canada and the U.S. So you kind of saw this whole displacement, and as difficult as that was, the funny thing was you actually saw this almost emergence in a beautiful story happening where all these different food entrepreneurs are popping out of nowhere because they lost their jobs, they lost their livelihood, they lost their businesses. But they were starting these gray market food operations. So they would like post their food on social media platforms, whether it be Instagram, Facebook Marketplace, and it might have been like empanadas that are homemade empanadas that they're selling out of their homes. But they had no tools or platform to do that, right? So almost we initially started the platform as like, if I can create an operating system where any small-scale food entrepreneur can run a profitable business, because food is very, very hard to do, then let's provide them the tools to do that. So let's provide a buying group. Let's provide an e-commerce platform. Let's provide marketing tools. So anything that would help them run a profitable business first and foremost. And then again, you know, provide them demand and provide them advertising and marketing for themselves. So the whole premise being was like, as opposed to having someone just jump into like our parents did, because our parents got literally a $200,000 loan back in the '70s to buy a Baskin-Robbins, as opposed to taking that risk and then being trapped in your job and trapped in your life, like what can you do to essentially provide them almost like a stepping stone to do what they, what their passion is, which is cook food and then build a build an operating system and platform to do that.

So you sound like a one-stop shop, essentially. Like anyone starting a business, they can go on Trade Dish, they can try to source their food, or you guys help them source their food, their materials. You help them essentially scale the business slowly with, with different kinds of resources. Absolutely.

And then we provide demand for them. So almost like a marketplace where now we give them access to customers, marketing, content. So the whole premise, like food is such a beautiful thing. It's a connector. So everyone wants to tell their story, but it's one thing to tell your story and sell your food. But if you don't do it profitably, then your passion wanes pretty quickly, right? So the whole premise being is like we're a technology platform, but we're also a demand platform for everyone to get access to new customers as well. Okay.

Yeah, I think from, from my experience, I remember that's where I first met you at. It was, it was at a conference. And I think it was, it was beautiful to hear the stories of each individual dish. And not only that, You provided a profile for people who were— their voices were unheard, their stories were perhaps unheard, and their dishes were untasted. And that was some of the best food I've ever had in my entire life. And it's like this platform you're creating, you're like the positive Robin Hood. That's the vibe I'm getting, right? It's that you're not stealing, you're asking for investors and investing in the lives of the people who need that platform.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right?

And it's incredible because you've internalized the struggles, you've internalized the sacrifice. And many people, I feel like in numerous cases, you see the struggles of your parents and that reflects in a different— you externalize in a different way. But the way you both have internalized it and more— Sophia, I'd love to hear your story later. But Peter, like, you've manifested it into this phenomenal business.

And, you know, that was a very unique experience. Like, Sophia was the keynote closing. I, I was the opening for the dinner.

And it was like, It felt like a magical night. It was a very magical night. That's why I feel like even our connection when we met felt pretty magical. And that sounds like super corny, and I am for sure. But I think all of that felt like it was meant to all come together in that energy. And the energy when you came and approached me afterwards felt really authentic and just synergized, right? So I think it was beautiful. That was a beautiful night for sure.

Absolutely. And you don't ever have to worry about being corny, Mina. It takes—

Really? Mina's corny? Okay, good. So Mina and I can hang out and be corny together. Together. I like corny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, no, it's all good. But, um, just for, for the listeners here, how, you know, Sophia and Peter and I met, I think, is through, through a conference. And I remember Sophia had a fireside chat, and it was just very inspirational to see how salt of the earth, down to earth that you were. Um, you both were. Like, you both have achieved so much success, and it's made— it made me emotional just watching it in the crowd, saying like, holy crap, that could potentially be me one day if I continue to work hard, if I continue to make the sacrifices. And so that's why I approached you, not to ask of anything other than to pay you a compliment, to say that you've inspired another soul. Oh God, 3 people getting corny here now.

I love it. I love it.

Peter, you're up next, eh?

I love it.

But that's, you know, I feel like that's where this conversation started. So again, we're really, really thankful that you made the time to come on the show. So Sophia, I would love to hear a little bit more about your journey. You know, you worked at Ulta, you worked at Carter's, you worked at Spree. It seems like there is a pattern here working in the retail and the fashion industries. Would love to hear where the genesis of all this came to be.

I mean, it happened by accident, which I think is kind of the beautiful thing because I never expected to— I didn't have any aspirations to be sort of the president of Hudson's Bay. And so I think the way it started, I was just a lame-ass 16-year-old who thought I wanted to work at Le Château. Do you guys know Le Château?

Oh my gosh, I used to buy my suits at Le Château.

I try to remind people that it used to be cool. I don't even know if it's around anymore, is it? I don't think it is.

There's probably like one location left.

Yeah.

I used to definitely buy my dress shirts from there. They had like nice turquoise stripes, kind of like this, but in a dress shirt, like bright colors. I totally remember Le Chateau.

Thank you. And so I wanted to work at Le Chateau, and I got approached by the manager, and I was a sales associate out of high school working. in retail, and I loved it. And in some ways, I think we talked about this, in some ways, you know, my parents did not like it. I mean, they didn't want me— and I know—

They didn't want retail in general.

Yeah, like, yeah, this idea of working in a store. I mean, you know, I think that they thought that they wanted more for me, just like, I mean, I think you and I talked about career choices and they didn't feel like they understood the path to get to stability. And they could see I was working on weekends. And so I do think there was this level of they just it wasn't what they hoped for me. But for myself, I loved it. I loved working with customers. I loved clothes and apparel. And so I think there was this level of feeling like I didn't know what else to do. So I did that because I really liked it, not thinking it was going to turn into a career. So in some ways, it's great the way it turned out. And I think that the level to which I approach everything is very much like it's no big deal. And I know that sounds like it's not a feigned, like trying to be humble about it.

Yeah.

It truly is. I don't think anything's a big deal. And I think that Although yours is a big deal. I promise you when I say that. I feel like generally speaking that I think there is this level of when you take things way too seriously, I think you put too much pressure on them. And I also think there's this level of external sort of validation that you try to receive from something that is labeled a certain way. And I think for me, I just— I don't think a lot of what we do is a big deal. And I think it's fleeting and it can change. But it so happens that I really like retail and I ended up being pretty good at it. And so that's where I feel very lucky to have done something that I think I'm good at and I like a lot.

So wait, so what happened? You started working at Le Château.

I'm going to drink some of my gin, my Dharma Gin.

So good. Wow. Dharma Gin. We have the best Indian dry gin.

So good.

Not available in Canada.

Legit, it's very good.

Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah.

So you started working at Le Château. That kind of showed you that you loved retail and you wanted to go down this path. But how did you get to You know, let me let me.

Okay, he's now he's gonna he's he's gonna slam me now.

I'm not gonna slam anything.

Okay.

The rise, you know how they have some of them are meteoric rises or meteor is meteoric like a yeah like very fast yeah yeah yours is one of those where everyone thought you were almost perpetually going to be in retail because you worked in retail retail retail on a from a sales perspective yeah and then it was one of those like She went overseas, and all of a sudden, like all bets were off. It's almost like the unleashing of Sophia to say, "Okay, I'm I'm not only going to another country, but I'm actually going to pay my own way," where I don't think anyone saw it coming.

Yeah, no. I mean, certainly nobody in my family. So that's his way of saying that nobody expected me to be successful.

No, that's not true.

Truthfully, in Canada, it was one of those things that you were a sales associate. Not that not that I'm diminishing.

No, no, no. Yeah, and I and then I worked in in. Like I was a store manager. And so I thought I was going to stay in operations, store operations. And then I took an opportunity overseas. And then from there, I just thought, I'm going to take every opportunity and go for it. And I do think that's part of it when you're kind of almost out of the environment that kind of holds you in place.

Mm-hmm.

I think that there's this level, and that's why I always encourage people to say, how do you stay and ask for what you need in any work environment or any environment or relationship and so forth? And if you can't get that, then I think it's right. You know, you need to understand when it's time to move on. Right.

Yeah.

So I think that moving on and whether it be physically of moving to a different market enabled me to say, okay, I'm now going to do what I want to do. And I don't care of how people thought of me in the past or in how they kind of pigeonholed me in a certain space. And I'm just going to go for it. Right. So that's what I mean about almost not caring as much. Right. Just going for it and not being mired by this notion of people's expectations. Because Peter's right. I mean, and he was trying to say it in a nice way, my family didn't expect me to be successful.

That came out of nowhere. Your loved ones did.

Okay, now he makes me say— now I'm starting to get insulted. Like, I feel like he's being mean now. Is he?

Like, your absence—

he's like, she was a loser. And so—

You were 15 years departed, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Like 15 years overseas where it's like we just knew Here's a role that Sophia's taking. We're like, huh, that's kind of crazy. Here's another role. And 15 years pass and we're like, okay, she's pretty much restructured and worked in every single country.

Yeah.

To be one of the lead project managers and country managers for Spree, which is like— and no one saw it coming, but it just happened.

Like, but I think that's the beauty of that. And that's what I was trying to say. When, when you have almost no expectations on you, then you just You can go for it, right? Do you feel that way?

Yeah, and sometimes, like, so, you know, for the actors and artists listening out there, Toronto's known to be kind of, has a very low ceiling for artists. You can only go so far here. So when I went to theater school for 4 years, then I worked at a restaurant waiting tables for 3, just trying to save up money to go to LA. And, you know, I had to spend like $10,000 getting my O-1 visa. And then you get to LA with your O-1 visa and you can't do anything else but act. get a serving job 'cause you're not allowed. But when I left Toronto, which I felt had a stranglehold on me, and I went somewhere where nobody knew who I was, there was no expectations 'cause everybody's there to do what I'm doing. That's when I started to take off. 'Cause it's almost, and I had gotten out of a 4-year relationship. And so I felt kind of—

I feel like you're giving a shout out to your girlfriend saying you're the reason why, right? You're new, like—

Yeah.

Everything changed for you, right? Yeah.

Going somewhere new where you're just going, screw it, I'm just gonna start over again. That's what sounds happened to you. You just went overseas and you started just building, building, building, building.

I actually think there's a beauty in starting over, but that's what I mean. Like, every— I think a lot of people stay comfortable because it is, to your point, very easy to stay in the rhythm and being comfortable. And, um, let's be honest, as, as humans, I think we inherently don't like change. But the moment that you're able to start over is the moment that you give yourself permission to say, okay, all bets are off. I don't— I'm not weighted by what you— my brother obviously thinking I'm a loser, or this level of, oh, Sophie can only do this, or Mina can only do this in acting. And now it's like, no, I can do whatever I want, and we'll see, right? And I'll show you.

We knew.

So he's trying to backtrack now. No, no, no.

You have to understand, Sophie's cool. Like, okay, so how tall are you? Like 5'1? She beat the shit out of me, like, growing up. I learned how to fight because of Sophia. Like, literally, literally. So it's like the spiciness, the aggressiveness, everything about her personality. Like, we all knew she was destined for greatness in some way, shape, or form. We just didn't know how it was going to come. So that's why it was almost like the departure when you left. Yeah, it was almost like you're flying out of the nest because you left. No one had any expectations other than the fact that, okay, she's probably gonna figure it out some way, shape, or form. And sure enough, you You did. did, right? So, yeah, so it's like, I, I don't— I'm not even sure it was a surprise by anyone. It was more just the fact that it happened. 15 years is a long period.

Yeah, that is not meteoric, meteoric rise.

I know, but it happened so quickly. So when you came back, it was like, okay, what just happened? This is like crazy, like the rebirth and, you know, of what you've created. And all of a sudden everything just basically— you vibrated everything into your life and everything happened So quickly after that, right? So all the different things that happened when you came back to— came back home.

I kind of want to— yeah, I want to ask, for you, Mena, it feels like yours was a meteoric rise, and I'm sure it wasn't for you because you were like, it needs to come yesterday.

But— Yeah, it was in a way. I mean, I moved to LA in January of 2017. By March, I had booked Jack Ryan with John Krasinski. I had a small role in that.

But I feel like that's still really great.

Yeah. And I, I, you know, my— our listeners know this, but Jack Ryan was the reason they even saw my tape for Aladdin, because they saw that I had booked Jack Ryan. They were like, who's this guy? And by July I had booked Aladdin. But here's the thing, I, I'm a big believer that life energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transferred. I believe in that law of physics wholeheartedly.

I do too.

And I also believe that life is like a graph. So because it was meteoric, you know, It also came down hard after Aladdin.

Right. But can I just say how proud we were of you as Canadians? We were all just like, yes!

Thank you.

Right? It's how we feel about Simu, right? Like, it's like, yes! But that's what life is, right? So this idea of staying— and I think that's kind of what we all grapple with— this idea of staying up here is ridiculous. And quite frankly, you wouldn't appreciate the up here if you didn't have the down there. And so that's what it is, right?

Exactly. And I think the higher you climb, the harder you fall. But then it's It's about getting up and it's about building, right? Even if it takes time, even if it takes some years. I wanna come back to—

You could tell I was trying to deflect and like ask you a question, but yeah.

No, this is great. I love being asked questions.

Yeah.

I wanna come back to this, but I do wanna take the time to ask you about something a little non-related, which I think is interesting. South Korean culture in Hollywood now has taken off.

It's crazy.

First of all, incredible artists.

It's funny that you say because I don't Hollywood, but it's also like just culture, international, like beauty. K-beauty is just huge right now.

Well, yeah, let's talk about that because it's I mean Squid Game, Parasite, but also learning about your culture is so interesting now, and the whole world is learning about it. So tell us a little bit about that. Like how does that make you feel? Like this is like you said when you were kids, people made fun of it, and now it's like. Man, to be South Korean now, it's like you're the coolest.

Cool kids in town.

Yeah, kids in town.

It's like BTS.

So I'll tell you a funny, funny story. I was— I've been traveling a ton, and on the plane, this is one of those things that literally, like, it's almost like, okay, I think we've made it, because literally, like, I look at all the different movies and they have a section just South Korean cinema, and you have Minari, you'd have Riceboy Sleeps. And that— you don't want to watch that movie. You're going to—

speaking of— Minari, like, made me weep. I don't know if you had a chance to see it.

Riceboy Sleeps is like a whole other level where you're— it's going to be— I was crying on the plane. But the point being is like, there's all of these different, to your point, like South Korean genres that are coming out. And it's not simply— if it's Squid Game, if it's— it's all these different, like, very humanized stories that somehow have made it to the mainstream. And I feel that about the Korean culture, which is so cool. Not just with cinema, with food, with everything is like rising to the top by way of this mainstream culture.

You're having a moment. Like South Korea is having a moment. I mean, yeah, beauty. Like you said, the models. I don't know what her name is, but you know the model, the one in Squid Game. Yeah, she's gorgeous. Yeah, and she's like on top of the world right now. She's getting these insane deals with you know.

But but you know what's crazy? Like did you? I didn't feel beautiful growing up, right? So this idea of having our moment, I think, is really great. But I think it's this idea of how do we challenge sort of this conventional beauty that typically is based on a power structure, right? Now I'm getting deep, Alex.

I love it.

But I do think there is this, like, I didn't feel beautiful growing up. So I do like this idea of a moment. And I like this idea of representing the Korean culture versus, like, I think we're all sort of grouped into the Asians as being one monolithic group, which is so not true, which we need know, right? And so I do think there's something about the Korean culture that is, I think there is a level of creativity. I mean, I think this about most humans. Like, I think if you're allowed to unleash your level of creativity and freedom to express yourself, I think it becomes a beautiful thing. But I think you almost need that level of momentum to keep going, right? So when you say there's that collective feeling of, when I see it, I can believe it, I do think that's what it's created. So as soon as you get this level of like, oh, Korean culture, this is like taking off, BTS is taking off. Blackpink is taking off. I watched the Netflix documentary, very cool. But then it becomes like everything about the culture then feels like it's, it's, it's a moment, right? And I do think that's important for us to see that in all cultures. But I'm, I'm not gonna lie, I love the fact that the Korean culture is experiencing that, right? Because—

But to be transparent and honest, like, growing up Korean was difficult, right?

So like—

Gosh, it was brutal.

I don't think we ever thought to ourselves, wow, we're— this is This is amazing to be Korean because literally, like I said, like our upbringing was like we were born in a very all-white neighborhood. I we moved to all-white neighborhood. All my friends were white, and it's crazy because like literally you try your best not to represent the Korean culture, right? Which is it's terrible to say now. It's very sad to say now, but this is one of those like everything has this passage of time associated with it where you're like okay. As you start to see all these different things pop up, whether it be cinema, whether it be food, whether it be beauty, like, it's great to see it, but that was never like our upbringing.

Yeah, I mean, you didn't feel that way either being Chinese, right?

And yeah, no, growing up, I think, um, Amina and I talked about in our first episode is that we were two of few ethnic minorities.

And which is crazy because Markham is very diverse, which is lovely now, but it wasn't, was it?

It wasn't. No, Markham was known known for like horses on farms. Yeah, horses on farms. And it was a very Caucasian neighborhood. Alex and I, we went to elementary school together, we went to high school together, and we were, you know, a minority for sure.

Absolutely.

For sure.

But how did you feel? Because it would've been tough too. And I think you kind of shared the experience of being, you know, honestly, I think as a person that's a minority, as a female is very different from a male Asian persona, right?

Well, I, yeah, I don't know anything about this, so I'd love to hear about it.

Well, it's— well, and I think you guys remind me of each other a lot because I do think, you know, Mina described you as being super athletic. And, you know, when you think about the stereotypes, right, of the Asian male, it's not necessarily grounded in being athletic and good at sports, right?

No, I think I think growing up— and we're getting deep again—

Yeah.

Is that I was kind of ashamed of my culture.

Yeah.

Right?

I felt that, too.

You know, we grew up with Caucasians. We thought that we had to adhere to a culture that would— we couldn't really identify with. My mom and dad were— they were born and raised in Trinidad and Tobago and then they immigrated here and they started a new life for us in Canada. And bringing even lunches— we talked about this— but like bringing a lunch, bringing it's called basmati and roti and curry. And we brought that and we're trying to eat with our hands. We're like, oh, do we eat with a fork and knife? Or do I—

But is that the reason why you guys connected? Or 'cause you—

I think a part of it was for sure. We were like the outcasts. And I also think culture recognizes culture, right? You're like, oh, you have a different culture. I can relate to that. I also bring different food. And I also, so yeah, I think that was a part of it too. And, you know, I think immigrant parents raise you different than, you know, than Caucasian parents or American-Canadian parents. And I think you realize that. But how is it different between a male and a female Asian growing up with prejudice? Like, what are the differences, you think?

So I would say from an Asian female, there is a bit of a fetishism ...idealization of Asian female. In some ways, you could say that there's this level of putting us up on a pedestal of, like, oh, this ideal feminine sort of being. I think for men, I think at least— so Pete, when he's saying he had to learn how to fight, I mean, you either have to learn how to fight or you're going to be— and you being sporty and athletic probably was a response to saying, I'm going to push up against that stereotype of being studious and keep my head down, which isn't ideal for the— when you think about the sort of ideal masculine state, keeping your head down and just being studious and not causing problems, which is very typical of the Asian culture, is probably not the best way to respond to the societal pressure that you feel as a man. Does that make sense?

Oh, for sure it does.

Yeah. Like, you learned how to fight very And you were small.

You didn't—

you weren't big as a kid. You were tiny.

Yeah, but let's be clear as well. Like, so this is— I think this is what you're alluding to, which I think—

let's be clear as well. I'm jacked.

Okay.

You could tell that's what he was trying to say.

I mean, it was like— no, but I think I never had literally like the— so your typical Asian male, candidly, is like, if you're successful, You're probably— because you're book smarts and you've gone— you've found a way to use your intelligence to— and I was more of a street rat.

I was like— You were?

Yeah, I was very much like street smarts, and I, I just found a way to make things happen, make things work. But I was also— I just survived, right? So I got in fights all the time. I literally, like, I remember— and this is grade 4— I remember flag football. For some particular reason, I was just I picked up a football and was really, really good at it. And it was like that was a moment where I became the fastest kid. I was like, so everyone looked at me still as the Chinese kid. I wasn't Chinese, but I was a fast Chinese kid.

Yeah.

And it was crazy because it was like, but that was like the level up of me saying, okay, like from here on in, this is my identity. I gotta just.

And that's how you gain acceptance, right? And yeah.

And I found that path where I I remember, like I do remember, like. Asian, other Asian, you know, I wouldn't call them friends because we weren't friends. It's terrible to say, which is so bad, but other Asian boys that literally probably didn't have that ability to speak their mind or voice, voice, because there was no level.

Or quite frankly, even socialize in that, in the spaces that you're socializing in, which is like so uncool, right? So—

But you have this absence of time where I think you grow out of it. So if you're, if you're book smart, you're intelligent, and you're It's probably boding well for you now in middle age, right?

Let's just say that.

Well, no, but you'll get to the point where you might have a really difficult upbringing. But to your point, you may end up being a doctor, you may be an academic, like you'll, you'll do just fine. But you'll have that entire like absence of your, you know, adolescence. And you're like, okay, that was a really shitty life. That was really difficult for me to fit in or whatever. So my point being is I struggled my entire life, but I found my way. To, to make it, make ends meet. And I found my way to succeed. So I think the point being is like, I wasn't your typical Asian male, but I saw exactly the struggles that they all went through, right? So yeah, this is— and I, I definitely see it. We can talk all day about this, but I see it in like, I see it in the boardrooms. I see it in the finance community. I see it in— Oh my gosh.

Think about being, though, a female leader in those— a female Asian leader in those boardrooms.

It's even a whole other level of like—

Yeah, but in some ways it's great because I surprise people because I'm like, I don't give a shit about what you're thinking, and I don't care, and I'm gonna be— not be— there's a level of me going in where I surprise people because I do think they expect me to be this Asian female of meek and keep my head down, hardworking, not expecting to, like, get credit for things. And I'm just not that, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I do think that's what I— probably bring a little bit. And it's funny because, you know, Hugh Lawson? So Hugh Lawson, who is this big Black guy, ex-CFL player, I think he did one year with the Argonauts. And I remember him saying, it must be nice, he's like, because I'm always trying to make myself smaller in rooms, 'cause he's like 6'4. And he's like, but you're trying to make yourself bigger. And it's so true. At 5'1, I kind of go in and I'm like— You're a presence.

Yeah.

And it's not, It's not a facade, but it's just truly like, I'm trying to make myself bigger in spaces. Whereas I think in certain groups, like Black strong males are trying to make themselves smaller and less intimidating. And I do think there's this level of like, how are we trying—

What are we chasing?

What are we chasing? What are we chasing?

What are we chasing? Are we just chasing like the average? Yeah, that's a crazy thing. It's like everybody wants almost what they don't have. But I do feel like it all goes back to like how you grew up, those insecurities that you grew up with. But in high school, I was afraid to talk to any girl that I found beautiful. I just, I just was like, I'm not good enough. I'm just like, they, they want—

And now you're like the actor and you're like, hey, remember?

No, but you know, it's, it's, it's that thing. But it's interesting because you have to ask yourself, like, what are we all chasing? Like, you're chasing being bigger, he's chasing being smaller, you're chasing being seen, right?

Yeah, I think it's, uh, I think it's interesting. I remember reading an article by Tim Urban, um, and if you're not following Tim Urban, I would follow him.

I'm not following Tim Urban.

He's, he's incredible. Um, has some amazing insights. But the point of the me bringing him up is because he has an interesting story about finding your AV, your authentic voice. Your authentic voice is a thing that you drown. Um, and many of us drown it in different points of our lives. And I'm finding similarities between Mina's story, between Peter's story, and Sophia's story, that you all have a beautiful authentic voice, but you're so boisterous to achieve the success that you all have achieved. A lot of visible minorities are ashamed of it, are afraid of it.

That's a very good point.

And they shun it.

Yeah.

What have you done, um, if you look inside, what have you done to shift that mindset? Because in a way, I, I'm struggling with that too, right? Like, yeah, what's, what's the identity that I can, you know, portray and personify. Like, it's tough. And there's just this confidence I feel like everybody in front of me at this table has. And I feel like there's a secret key that you guys—

No, no.

I would love to learn more about.

So part of— can I answer that?

Yeah.

And I think you want to answer. I can tell you want to answer. So I think part of your authentic voice is not about putting on a facade, right? So it's not about being bombastic or being big in a room. I think it's up to us as leaders. So when we think about more leaders like us where very little representation and we're not seeing a lot of leaders like us in boardrooms or in more tables that we're surrounding ourselves with. I do think it's how do we recognize good, successful leadership, which isn't in the conventional form that we're seeing, right? Which is loud and wanting to get credit for work. And so I do think when you think about the early success stories that we're breaking into, it's because we're able to do that, right? We're able to— we naturally have the personality to do that. But what I would say Is there space for the ones that are the quiet achievers? And how do we as leaders make space for that? Because I do think you need that level of— there's so many good people that are able to do amazing work and lead teams quietly, but don't necessarily want to be the ones that are pounding their fist on the table and asking for attention and space, right? So I do think there's— how do we create that dynamic of, power looks different, right? It's not just about outwardly showing this, you know, making yourself bigger and feeling like you're posturing, but it's about authentically living your best self, right? Because when you think about people that are the most successful, they're fully themselves.

Mm-hmm.

That's the space. And finding spaces where being fully yourself is accepted and you can thrive and be successful in that. So I know it's very simplistic, but I absolutely believe that because I do think if we're telling people, oh, you need to be like us, you need to drop, drop your engineering degree and go and go follow acting, I don't know if that's the path that everybody wants to follow. Right. And I— or it's— that's huge risks. And I think it's a special personality to do that. I think being an entrepreneur isn't for everybody. And being, you know, coming into a room and not giving a shit. is in a boardroom is probably not for everybody. How do you allow people and change this narrative of what power looks like? Does that make sense? Yeah. Do you guys feel that way? Peter doesn't.

No, I know I absolutely do.

Yeah.

I just think taking a different take on it is that you just don't— it's funny, actually, you mentioned this topic, but it's so— it is so topical because I'm doing a panel talk, I think next month, on And the theme is like, so it's basically a minority group. So only minorities in a room in this very much this kind of roundtable discussion. But it's the topic of death and like what death related to your background, death related to your ethnicity, death related to like what you've, what you've kind of grown up with. And my topic was, is about death and dying basically without achieving your authentic voice. Which is crazy that you mentioned that because like it literally is like, and we use our father as an— I use my dad as an analogy, which is basically, he's 85 and I think it's just so sad. And I do get very emotional about this. I think he's going to wake up or pass away one day with the whole thought process of like feeling like he didn't achieve what he wanted to achieve. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think I would love to just tell him that, like, you've achieved everything because you sacrificed everything so we can have a life. But he didn't have a voice. He didn't have— he never achieved what he wanted to achieve. So the whole premise being is like, it comes with time where you are going to establish your voice, but it has to come with time. So I'll give you a direct example. Like, literally 5 startups, 4 exits. The last 2 exits were in 2018, 2019. Candidly, I was sitting on more money than I ever had because I had two back-to-back exits. And call it karma or serendipity, this was like right before COVID hit. So I got you got to be lucky to be good many times as entrepreneur. But literally, I went through six months after selling the two companies of probably the deepest depression I've ever ever went through. And literally, everyone's like they don't they didn't get it. They didn't understand it. I couldn't really explain it. And what I realized is because everything I was going through the motions of just chasing, chasing, chasing, which was basically I just wanted to prove myself as an entrepreneur.

Worthy.

Worthy. Yeah. As an Asian male that probably like had to get out of the stereotype. But the reality is I never really achieved what I, what I really wanted to, which is like having my own voice and telling my own story and doing my own passion project and feeling like I was, I was worthy because I never, I never really was. I was just going through the motions. And I was that aggressive, like, kid that was like, you know, sporting, you know, competitive, athletic. And I just like, I bull rushed my way to success.

But I do think like that part of the depression came when you thought that what everyone tells you should make you happy, right? So you've had all of the monetary success that you wanted. People looked up to you. You had people that wanted your attention and to sit on certain boards and conferences. And you were like, oh, but I'm not happy. Found myself—

Not only was I— wasn't happy, I felt— and this is not the term, it's not the right term by way of imposter syndrome, but I felt like almost like a different type of imposter syndrome where I literally felt like I achieved everything. And I felt everyone thought I achieved everything. I should be happy. And this is like, this is like the time I retire and just chill out. And I just, I felt empty. I felt crazy empty. And literally, it's been only in the past 2 years, and I'm turning 50 I'm gonna be 50, like literally next month. So this is like the past 2 years where I just realized, or 3 years, no, actually it's 2 years, 'cause I just started to tell my story and my background where I never told my background. I never, I was, I'm not on social media. I never have been on social media. I don't like putting myself out there. I've been very reluctant to do that. I just started doing it 2 years ago and I'm not, still not comfortable with it at all.

But you told your background not in a way of talking about your success the way people in social media do, but you told your background in the way of, what you just described. I was depressed.

Yeah, feeling like you needed more.

I felt like I needed more. I didn't feel like I could share the fact that I always felt like this little skinny Asian kid that never was accepted, but I had to make my way through. So it's how do you actually showcase parts of— 'cause I do think the moment that you actually almost talk about things that you're embarrassed by, the power of that goes away and the shame of that goes away. And so then it's like, oh, okay, so, like, you know all the shitty things about me. And so, It is what it is.

And I'm now—

It takes time. It does take time. And so then you're able to be yourself, though. Like, if you say, I'm going to, like, bare everything and then I have nothing to hide. And so then it's like there's a power in that. But it does take time and it takes a level. I mean, we're speaking from a level of being in our 50s, right? Which is very different from— I think I assume you guys seem really young.

I'm not going to lie.

It's either really good skin. It's really good skin.

I'm turning 52.

Right? So I do think, like, keep in mind that is the moment that you understand that this is just what the life— your life journey, and not put pressure on yourself to kind of get there. But I do think you have to get to a place of, like, saying to yourself, I'm gonna show up as myself in every space I enter. And the moment that you can do that is the moment that— and you're gonna find pretty soon, like, people will be like, yeah, no, I don't like Alex the way he's authentically himself, then you're like, okay, I know, I know I need to move on. But you'll find the space where people are gonna be like, I like this Alex. This Alex is pretty effing cool. And that's where you're gonna flourish and be yourself. And that's where you should— and then you're gonna start feeling all the stuff that you should feel with— that comes with success that's outside of the money or superficially the title and all of the stuff that we think is gonna make you happy.

And that's a great That's the crazy part about it.

Yeah.

Starting companies and entrepreneurship and risking a lot of stuff, that came easy to me. It wasn't— that was never a big deal. It was putting myself out there and having a voice and almost just—

Showing up as yourself.

Oh yeah, being not your typical like aggressive dude in a boardroom that just found a way to make it work. Like literally outside of that, telling my own human story, that was by far the most challenging.

And probably like the most difficult for you to do, right? I remember you struggling with that, right?

So So Peter, you, you know, you've obviously had these successful exits, but you said that you went into, is it fair to say, probably the most depression you'd felt in your life or close to it?

Without question, yeah. Really dark, a really dark place.

And how'd you get yourself out of that? Was it your entrepreneurial like spirit of like, I'm gonna get myself out of this, or what was it? Because I talk about this too, but I went to a dark place after Aladdin. In as well. And it took me a couple years to get myself out of it too. But I'm interested, how did you get yourself out of it, especially at 48, 50? Because you know who you are and you're confident in who you are. How'd you get yourself out of that?

So it's funny, I would even go, even rewind it back a little bit further in terms of it was a dark place, but it was also a dark place that was very lonely. Meaning like, I'm okay to talk to people about the struggles I'm having. I've always been okay with it, especially kind of a close-knit group. But the challenge with it is when you talk to people about levels of depression when you've made it, so to speak, they're like, what the hell do you have?

Yeah. And you probably felt that, right?

Your circle of influence and circle of like trust or circle of like friendship, it didn't diminish or didn't get smaller to the extent of like they voluntarily said, I don't know what you're talking about, Peter. But it was just very— I just felt it. I felt like me telling them that is like, okay, you I'm about to go to work literally for 10 hours straight right now. And dude, like—

And I'm like struggling to pay the bills.

I get what you're saying, but I kind of don't really care. I don't really get what you're saying and keep talking to me about it. But like, literally, not that they were zoning me out, but I felt that, right? So that's why it almost took that another level of like sadness and depression even further where I'm like, I just got to figure this out myself. And it's funny, I actually— But you did.

But you went to therapy. I did.

Yeah, I went to therapy.

But then you found kind of an inner circle group group that literally just got it. And it wasn't a big group. It was, you know, my wife Cindy, like, God bless her, because like she was always there. She never deviated. And she'd be the one just listening and be very patient about it. But the point being is that those who got it were very supportive. They understood. But how I got myself out of it was I just— this is kind of where, Alex, to your question or to your comment, that's when I just realized, okay, what was the other purpose and meaning that I had to like what was missing in my life that I had to figure out. And that was like me doing all these different entrepreneurial things, being driven by money, by dream, being driven by success. It's fleeting. It really is. Like, so for me, I'm not— and we talked about this— I'm not driven by money at all in any way, shape, or form. For me, it's like I'm at a point right now where I just really, really want to— it sounds cliché and sounds like the next chapter of life where you just want to help other people. You want to do something that's meaningful and passion that you're passionate about.

I do think it's important to get out of yourself. Right? Like, the moment that you're not focused on yourself anymore is the moment that I think you can do good work, right? Yeah.

And then be comfortable talking about it very authentically where it's not— that's the one thing I think I'm proud, I'm very proud of, and I think I'm doing, you know, a pretty good job of is like, I'm not being self-promotional and putting myself out there to the extent of like, I'm trying to just do it for my own purpose. I'm doing it because I know what I'm doing and how has a greater good, has a greater purpose to it. So for me, it's like finding that voice where I'm okay to talk about it and then finding a voice where I'm— I can be unabashedly promotional about what I'm doing because I'm proud of what I'm doing. That's very, very hard to do because it's almost like there's an— like there's a gap between them that sometimes is too deep, or if you're not confident enough. Some people are crazy self-promotional and they're totally okay with it. Other people do not.

I feel like I want to name names.

No, no, no, no, no. No, I know what it is. But no, but the point being is like, if you had the ability, yeah, to have both those balances and be proud of what you're doing, yeah, then you have to get your voice out there. And I think that's kind of, Alex, your point is like, you've got to figure out a way— what, what is it that's going to trigger you to get your voice out there?

And surround yourself with people that you can, you can feel like you can fully practice being yourself with, right? And sharing all that.

I love that.

I love it.

Yeah, you, you said something important, Peter, that I think is important for everybody to remember, no matter who they are, where they are in life. And I've felt this before too, several times in my life. I'm sure you have too. All of us have. There's nothing worse than feeling like you're all alone and nobody understands where you're coming from, because people will always put excuses of like, what do you have to complain about? Like, you just had a billion-dollar movie. Like, what do you have to complain about?

I mean, yours I think your story is like—

Crazy.

Way higher levels. No, no.

No, no. But Mina, I think— Yeah, I think, Mina, I think your story is really hard for people to understand, 'cause I do think we, as a society, celebrate stardom and celebrity and all that stuff. And so it must have felt very lonely because nobody— they're like, dude, I have no time to hear you complain.

Yeah.

Right?

Exactly. And I think that's my point is that you know, no matter where you are in life, who you are, what kind of success you've had, everybody should understand that we're all human at the end of the day, and we all go through the same kinds of ups and downs of emotions. We all have high highs and low lows, and we all feel like we're alone and misunderstood. We all feel that stuff. Money is a— it's like a It's so easy. It's a wazzy, gazy, fagazy. It's just fairy dust. Hey, like Matthew McConaughey.

But you know, but you know that people will say it's because you have money that you're saying that.

But people, yeah, in my case, it's not true. I mean, I, it's not true. I, you know, I'm not a multi-millionaire by any means. So, but that's the thing. That's exactly my point. It doesn't matter what people think. Yeah, people will always think like, like as soon as Aladdin happened, people thought Oh, he's a multi-millionaire. Like people went up to my sisters and and they were like, man, Mina must be like he must be doing good. He's made a lot of money. And I it was like no, like not not at all. But I think the lesson is that be wary of being envious of other people because you never know what they're going through. And even when you get to where they are. You will realize that it's your own journey. You, you have, you know, it's not all perfect. It's not all perfect no matter where you are.

Um, and it's also being wary of those highs, right? Like, you know, when you cling on to the, the highs and you believe that, oh my God, I'm deserving of this. Like, I think that's like not only of people looking at other successful people, but being when you're in moment of, like, whether you're in your groove and you're like, this is amazing, and I'm going to stay in this forever. You're not. You're not going to stay in that forever. You're going to come down. And that's okay too. But I think that's where— like, so clearly you didn't believe, oh my God, I'm the greatest actor of all time, and I'm a Canadian treasure. You were literally, like, clearly kind of trying to— like, people were putting all of these expectations on you. And it was like you didn't believe it. And so I think not believing is a good thing because to hold on to something that is so external and has nothing to do with you is probably the best thing, is not to hold on to that, right? Be wary of that.

Yeah, this is amazing because we talk, you know, we talk about all of this in our other episodes as well. This is something that comes up over and over again. So, you know, I appreciate that.

Yeah. And I want to mention just one more thing, and I know we're coming up to time here, but One thing is, if there's anything that I've summarized and taken away from just listening to this amazing conversation, I think that everybody at different points of their life have a different measuring stick for success and happiness. When you're, when we're in high school, what's our measuring stick for happiness? Be cool, right?

Yeah.

Get the hot girl.

Get the hot girls, guys, whoever it is, right? Make it to the basketball team. Don't get cut. Don't get cut. Don't come last place in track. Don't piss off my mom and dad for not doing calculus. And then you evolve to this other part of your life, university, right? It's, uh, what's my measure? What's my measure meant for happiness? It's getting a 4.0 GPA and getting the job of my dreams.

Yeah.

And now it's always changing. And so, I think the dangerous game that I've heard many of us play here is we've looked at somebody else's measuring stick for happiness. And the external validation that sometimes I've chased is, you know, do XYZ and you'll impress everybody. That will show them. And then we're all trying to figure out who's them. Who, who is them?

Who are we?

Is it mom and dad?

Is it ourselves?

Right. So it's just, I think it's fascinating to hear everybody's journeys here, but at the end of the day, I think we're all, it's very cyclical, right? You know, you're gonna have some highs, some lows, some, but we're all figuring out on the way.

Yeah.

So, which brings me to, to, you know, a, a question I have and last question, I think, uh, it's a profound question that, you know, knowing what you guys know now, Is like the one piece of advice, like dear Peter, dear Sophia, you're you're breaking into the industry. Maybe you're graduating. Maybe you're in high school. What's like something you would have told yourself? You pat yourself on the back, and you would have told a younger version of yourself.

Oh wow! I don't know because everything is like. hindsight, so you can say you can change things. But I think the biggest thing for me would have been literally trying to be something you're not all the time. So I literally try to stand up and be, you know, something, someone that I wasn't relative to just trying to get out of my comfort zone. I was never really comfortable with it. So being, having, like I said, I grew up with all Caucasian friends. So for me, it was always consistently trying to be white like them and try not to embrace my culture or try not to talk about the fact that I didn't, you know, it wasn't— I didn't have what they had, right? So it was— I did it consistently, nonstop, right? Where it was like, I wouldn't say it was a matter of shame, but it might have been shame. It might have been, right? So it might have been the fact that you just didn't— you always were comparing consistently and And you realize pretty quickly that just gets really exhaustive. And quite honestly, in this, in your later years in life, it probably is triggering in a way where probably you go back and you think to yourself, okay, why did I do that? Like, it took me literally like 45, 46 years. And this goes back to the authentic voice to realize, okay, none of that really mattered. Right.

Mm-hmm.

And mind you, it got me to where I got to now. But it's almost like 45 years or 46 years of my life. I'm like, okay, that was just exhausting to try to be something you're not all the time, right? So, yeah, now I go back to the fact that I think I'm at a really comfortable spot in my life and I can have a— I do have a voice. And yeah, going back to the kind of this next, this kind of roundtable talk I'm doing is I'm so happy I found it because I guarantee you, And I don't want to use our dad as kind of the example, but there's certain individuals that, like, you're gonna die and then realize your biggest regret is that you didn't do something that where you had your authentic voice out there and you spoke the truth and your truth, right? And that's— that was one of the things that took me, like I said, 45 years to figure that out.

What do you think that was for your dad? Like, what do you think he would have done or gone after if he would have He was just very, he was just very risk averse, right?

So, so this, this is the funny thing. When I talk about not being money driven, the one thing I do know that I've taken from him unequivocally is he's not money driven. Neither am I. He's protection driven. I mean, like, he just wants security. He wants to make sure his loved ones and his entire world is safe. And so he wants He wants— so his happiest moments, it's funny, like he's at a point right now where, and we get so frustrated by him because he always talks about it. He's like, I'm ready to go. He's 85. He's like, I'm ready to die. He's like, I'm ready to go. I'm close.

Can I tell you how irritating that is? Yeah.

He's the kind of guy that lives to 110.

Very morbid. He will. He will.

He's like, oh shit, I'm still alive. But he is, he literally is. But it's funny because we kind of came to this realization I actually don't think it's a matter of him really wanting to go, but he's he's now at a point in his life where everything is perfect. Literally, his his kids are financially completely financially sound. Everyone's healthy. All the all the grandkids are doing well. They just sold their house, so they're sitting on some money that they can give. Like and that's that's his big thing. He just wants to give, albeit it's not a ton of money, but he just wants to give money to us. He wants to give his inheritance to us. So for him, it's like he's at a point. in his life where everything is just safe and secure and happy. So for him, it's like, he's okay to go. And very similar to myself, it's like, that's kind of how I feel about money. I don't have a relationship with money financially, monetarily. It's more the security of making sure people around me are taken care of. And there's a safe— and everyone's safe. And I'm just happy. And I don't have to worry about the financial stresses of what money provides or chasing something or just worrying about like, how do you live on a day-by-day basis? So I think from his perspective, he achieved that. It took him a long time to achieve that level of, like, security and safety. But also the other side of it is like, and I relate it back to, you know, that day when I saw him put on a suit and go to this conference, I feel like he really wishes he did more with his career and more with his life. And because he left Korea with a pretty Like his his dad came from money, right? We never met our grandfather, but he came from money. He came here to start a better life with the family from a westernized perspective. But I think it was a struggle for him because he thought it would be very easy to pick up and live the same life he lived in Korea here. Didn't do that. So now, eighty years, eighty-five years has passed, and now he's at he's his level of happiness is settling for just that safety net.

But I would, I would bet that whatever you feel like he didn't maybe achieve, he achieved through you guys. I mean, look at you guys. You guys, I bet, make him so freaking proud. And you know what, he sacrificed for you, but you made up for it. That's the thing. And I think you've, you know, you've probably made him so proud.

We tell them that. We tell them that, like, literally, look what you have.

Look what you But he is really proud of us, right?

Oh, for sure.

That's what I mean. Like, yeah, we try to give him like literally his flowers and my mom's flowers and say, look what you've created. Like, look at the 7 grandkids that you created. Look at every one of them in university. Look at every one of them literally starting their own careers. It's crazy, right? So it's like that, that all came from literally Bergamont Avenue in Rexdale where we lived in community housing. They didn't speak a lick of English. And I remember the racist, like really crazy racist, you know, things that happened to my— to our family, specifically to them, that it just transcended.

For—

so for them, it's like scars that they just carry forward, carry forward, carry forward. And now, admittedly, like our kids will never see that. Not that they're never gonna see it. Obviously racism exists, whether microaggressions or whatever the case might be, but they're never gonna feel it the way like my parents felt and the way I felt it.

Yeah.

Right?

sacrifices with the passage of time. The one generation sacrifices the next, which ultimately paves the way for the third one that has no idea about what they said, what struggles they went through.

Yeah, but your parents did that themselves. Like, they, they did it, they did it alone. Sophia, what would you tell your younger self?

I had time to think about it, just so you know. So thanks for being— thanks for being long-winded, Peter. I appreciate that. Um, the 2 pieces pieces of advice I would give is I'm not afraid of change at all. I've moved, to your point, I moved to— I've lived in many different countries. I'm okay with starting over. And so I do think change is inevitable. And so I think embracing that and not being so tied or married to what the present moment means, right? So it's the idea of ups and downs and the highs and lows and the beautiful and painful moments and accepting that. So I do think that as humans, we need to accept. 'Cause the moment you can kind of lean in and soften with that is the moment that you'll be able to kind of withstand, and then you come out stronger, right? So that's corny and so true. And then the second piece is being okay with being an outlier, right? So I do think there is this collective story around this table of us feeling— which I do think is more the human condition of not feeling accepted and good enough and showing up in the best way possible. And I do think the moment I— I kind of said, okay, I'm okay with being not accepted and not in the inner circle of what the— wherever, whoever they are, and not being accepted by them. I'm okay with. And I do think there's a power in that because then you operate in a space of, okay, so screw it. I'm not gonna be fully accepted in the way I am, so I'm just gonna come in as myself, and then whatever happens will happen, right? And I think being an outlier and accepting change is hugely important. in any form that you wanna show up in, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You heard it here, folks. It's be an outlier.

Yeah.

It's be acceptance to change. It's find your authentic voice.

Yeah.

These are incredible nuggets you can't find anywhere else, right, Mina?

I feel like you could, though. Like, really, I feel like you could.

Just Google it. Just Google it.

You'll find it.

You'll find it.

Yeah, no, but I think I think the point is that, you know, the point of this podcast and the point of having you guys here is, yes, you can Google it, you can hear Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and all those guys talk about it, but you guys are real-life examples of people who have worked their whole life, fought, never given up, you know, taken advantage of every opportunity you've been given and created something incredible yourselves and your families. And everyone out there should know that no matter who you are, where you come from, what your history is, that if you work hard, if you just try to figure out who you are deep down inside, Yeah. and you follow your passion, that you too can find success. You can do it. You can create the life for yourself that you want to create. And once you create it, You will ask why. You will question it. You will be depressed. You will be sad. And you'll have to get yourself back up and do it all over again. And that's the whole damn point. It's never— it's never perfect.

No.

You're always working towards something and then reevaluating and then working towards something else. So just embrace where you are in life. Just embrace it and, and Embrace the positives with the negatives, the highs with the lows, and that's life, man. That's what I got out of this.

Yeah, I know. Well, this is amazing, and thank you both so much for for taking the time to share your stories, for sharing your struggles. I feel like I learned so much more about you two and your stories, and I feel like everybody who is listening to this. Found, you know, a nugget or something that they can apply and they can enact in their own lives. So I think that you've inspired many. You've inspired the 2 here on the table. So thank you so much for being on the show. Um, hopefully we can get you guys on another episode.

Yeah, and Peter's not gonna stop doing these. I feel it. You're gonna—

yeah, he's all over the roundtables.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Thanks for having us. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in and listening Please subscribe, share, and join the journey of Growth Untold. Don't miss a single nugget. Hit that follow button now on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and Instagram.