The Season 4 Finale with Jon Matzner

If you need a dollars and cents justification, recognize that the respect and admiration of one relationship is worth 10,000 of the wrong type of relationship. And for me, that one relationship I don't have, or that one inbound, or that one connection that I don't have justifies so much behavior because of nonlinearity. Because of— it's not every relationship accumulates of equal value. Our relationship is worth 100,000 people in India following me because I said I'm giving away an iPhone, like and subscribe. And so there's nonlinearity to human relationships and potential and business opportunities. And so for me, I continue to chase nonlinearity because it's not going to happen one step by one step. It's going to pop. With the guy who's going to acquire Sagan follows me right now. I just haven't met him yet.

Welcome back to Peter Lohmann's podcast, guys. Season 4 is over. I'm sad to report we have no more episodes lined up for you. Really hope you enjoyed the season. It was one of the longest seasons ever, and I was really happy with how it turned out. We had some outstanding guests this year, and overall I really enjoyed recording it. So I hope you enjoyed listening to it as much as I enjoyed producing it. And what I have for you today is just a couple quick administrative updates and then something a little special, a little treat for the listeners. So as I mentioned, Season 4 is over. If you're listening to this, happy holidays, Merry Christmas. Hope you had a great 2024, and I'm already looking forward to 2025. Season 5 of the podcast. I've already started planning it, and I've got some cool guests already lined up that I know we're going to have on the show. It's going to be a similar format. I may mix it up a little bit, but don't expect any major changes. Love to hear from you. If you love something, hated something, would like to see something different, you have ideas, please reach out to me. If you could just go to my website, peterlohmann.com, there's a form there. Or if you have my email, shoot me an email. Love to hear from you. So in terms of other updates from kind of around my content world, Crane is closed for new applications right now, but we'll be opening up in a couple months. So look for more info and news on that. Best place to really keep up to date with that is going to be my weekly newsletter, which again, you can just go to my website, to sign up for that if you're not already a subscriber. So my goal with the show is always maximum value. I'm like a high signal to noise type of guy. So I hope that you found that this season of episodes was high signal, low noise, maximum value for you, the listeners. That's always my goal with every season and every episode and every question all the way down to the minute. I want to just be respectful of your time. So I hope I achieved that for you this year. Okay, so what I have for you today is something a little special. If you couldn't get enough of me and fun conversations about business and productivity and property management and all the challenges that we face as entrepreneurs, I actually have another podcast and I've been a little bit quiet about it. We kind of spun it up in the dark a little bit. But Jon Matzner and I started a brand new podcast called Lazy Leverage, and we've actually produced around a dozen episodes. So if you'd like to go back, you can check out the back catalog. We are now on all the major podcast platforms, and of course we'll have links below. And not only that, but I have Jon here with me today. How you doing today, Jon?

I'm doing well. How are you?

Awesome. I'm doing well too. So what we're going to do, Jon, and I already got you to agree to this, so thank you for doing this. But we're basically going to do like a mini episode of Lazy Leverage right here, right now. No sponsors or anything like that, just to give listeners a flavor of what you and I talk about on my other show with you. So, you know, I don't know how you would categorize our topics of conversation. They're a little bit all over the place, but it's way more free-flowing and informal than this show, than Peter Lohmann's podcast. We don't do a whole lot of guests, although we do sometimes. We do some shows together. We do most of our shows together. Some of them we'll do just, you'll do one with somebody or I'll do one with somebody. But it's a way for you and I to explore ideas and concepts and philosophies. And we argue and we celebrate and we swear. And it's just a little, I don't know, what would you add to that?

I think we have to talk about what I think is the subtitle of the show, which is things that Peter and John would talk about anyway, we just decided to hit record.

Exactly.

And I mean that in that you and I have been doing this for a year and a half or 2 years, and if the podcast shut down tomorrow, it would be the exact same thing except it just wouldn't be recorded. And I think you and I find ourselves intellectual. Sometimes we're very much very close, sometimes we're very divergent. We've kind of taken different professional routes, but we find ourselves in some ways similar, some ways different situations. And so we're kind of like, I would say like showing our math. Like this is, you and I were texting about something that we're about to talk, you know? And so I do this with Josh Schultz, I do this with my co-founder, you probably do it with your co-founder. And so I think what I would describe lazy leverage as broadly is kind of like what happens underneath the hood when you and I are talking about like, executive compensation, or should I sell the company, or am I fucked?

It's like the stuff I think about between the episodes proper of the show. It's like, what do I text Andrew about as soon as we hang up with a guest?

What are they called? Like liner notes?

Right?

Like in an album, like, here's how we came up with this one, or, you know, I think we're showing our math a lot, and I think a lot of it just because of the nature of who you and I are and our commonalities have to do with leverage, which is, you know, small input, big output. And that's kind of thematically— I mean, that's the theme of my career, but it oftentimes diverges into like, how do you get significance from your professional achievements? Or, you know, it kind of takes, you know, occasional, you know, you texting me, talking, chirping about the unprofessionalism of popular podcast hosts. You know, that was— I got about 7 texts from you last night about that. So, so, you know, whether we bring that into the show or not is up to you, right?

All right, so that's great. That's a good kind of summary. So let's just jump into something that's been on my mind, and we've, we've chit-chatted about this a little bit. We really haven't gotten into it, and that's Twitter. So I got started on Twitter probably 4 years ago now, maybe 5 years ago. Moses Kagan helped me. Now, I, I've been on Twitter since I think I joined Twitter in 2008 or 2009, but I experienced Twitter, like the business side of Twitter starting 4 years ago or so. Moses Kagan sort of helped me find my voice over there. And that was a huge part of my sort of, I don't know how to explain it, but it's like how I started to become better known in the industry and in the community. Started on Twitter. That was the growth of my newsletter, came off of Twitter. It's how you and I met. It's how I got started with my podcast. So I have a lot of good feelings about it and I grew it up to over 20,000 followers over there. But ever since the election, I've been off Twitter. I deleted it from my phone. I have not posted, I have not read it at all. And so I can talk about why I did that. And I also, we, I know you and I disagree a little bit on like, is there still value there? Or like, how does it fit into the, the larger— our worlds, I guess.

I think we shouldn't dwell on this too much, but in like 4 sentences or less, why you decided to exit? And then we'll talk about— maybe we'll just kind of, you know, debate a little bit, you know, future, because that is relevant to other people too.

Yeah, why? It was a culmination of a lot of things. The election was really the straw that broke the camel's back. I just— I couldn't deal with reading Trump's name every 3 seconds for the next 5 years. I just, I had enough of that back in, in 2015 through whatever. And that, but really it was a bunch of other stuff that culminated with that. Twitter changed their algorithm quite a bit. And so my posts just weren't getting anywhere near the engagement they used to get. And a lot of the people who I like and respect had stopped posting nearly as much, or I wasn't seeing their stuff. And I just kind of felt like I had, I had soaked all the juice out of it that was there because everyone who followed me for property management, by now they're already listening to this or they're reading my newsletter and I'm engaging with them on LinkedIn. And so I was just kind of like, I don't know, it's a lot of distraction. And I would find myself getting angry, like I would see stuff on there, it would make me mad and it would kind of just put me in a bad mood. And I'm like, what am I even doing here anymore?

Yeah.

So that's why.

I mean, I think that that's a great reason to not be on there anymore. I think the question that I would— I mean, sure. I think the question that maybe to try to phrase it in a way that like, I don't know, did you ever watch the Intelligence Squared debates? I used to love those.

Yeah, I love those.

Yeah, they're killer.

Are they still doing them?

I don't know, but I watch all the old ones. I'll rewatch the old ones or whatever. They're fantastic.

Yeah, they're great.

And then the second thing that also is like that is the Oxford— Do you ever watch the Oxford debates? Oxford does some killer debates. They're all on YouTube. They're super, super good. So we have to basically frame what is the question of the day here? It's not, is there some marginal value? What is our question of the day here? Because you and I think about Twitter differently moving forward. It's not, you wouldn't debate that there's marginal value. You would say, no, of course there's marginal value, but it's a very personal decision if that marginal value outweighs the marginal cost to Peter getting angry. So I can't debate that. That's a subjective assessment that you're making. I can't debate. So what's our debate question? What's our—

Well, the debate is like, first, what's the value? You're still active on there. What's the value you're getting? And I think you and I also have a possibly a disagreement around like, if I make a post and 350 people see it instead of 30,000, is it, you know, is that so valuable? Is that so worth taking the time to make content and produce it and respond to the replies and all that other stuff?

I very strongly believe yes. Very strongly believe yes. And, you know, I always love that line. It's like if you A/B test everything on the internet, it all turns into porn. Which is, I think, one of the funniest things I've ever heard in my life. And to me, it's like if you A/B test the social media algorithm enough, it all turns into how I made big number in short amount of time with $0 down and no experience. But that's what gets views. That's what gets organic reach. But I'm not monetizing based on YouTube or Twitter. I think like I haven't even set up my Twitter payouts. Like, I literally can't be bothered to spend 10 minutes to plug in my Stripe account. It's just like, it's genuinely— I'll show you right now. It's just not even set up. But I know that I don't care if 11 people see it. If a guy— this is a true story— from a private equity firm that is hilariously large sends me a DM and then we get on the phone and then he walks me into their portfolio operations team saying, I know John, I follow him, you guys need to have a serious conversation about building leverage in our 700-unit portfolio of one brand. And they have 20 brands and they're a multi-billion— like, so for me, I'm not playing the make a stupid face on YouTube, get a bunch of clicks, download my lead magnet, join my— I'm just not playing. I'm playing a completely different game.

Yeah, you have a high LTV B2B product that's kind of your bottom of funnel or service. Which is Sagan Passport, which is awesome, by the way. We're— I'm a customer like 6 different ways.

But not— I would say— sorry, I want to be clear, though. First of all, when I started on Twitter, that wasn't the case.

Right, right.

But, but, but secondly, I would also say I'm not on Twitter just because of Passport. I mean, it happens to be helping me significantly, but it's also because of the people, the relationships I want to meet.

Meaning I already have all those relationships.

Do you?

Here we are in a podcast.

You're done. You're good.

I'm good. I don't need any, I don't need any more friends. I don't know. Like, I mean, not friends, but I mean, you and I are going to a retreat with these people. Like, how much closer am I gonna get by DMing them a GIF on Twitter? Like, I don't know what—

No, I get it's— I, I would think of it maybe as continuing luck exposure surface area.

I'm, I'm like, I'm luckiest person in the world. You're good. Fine. I don't know.

Fine. Now the last and the most important one that is so I think maybe different than you and I's relationship with that, which is I have fun. Like the third and most critical difference between you and I is I have an absolute blast tweeting and messing with people.

You're a shit slinger. I know.

Yeah, absolutely. Like, tickles me.

But what's funny about that is like the guy who does that to the max, you're like enemies, but you're actually like, should be BFFs.

Yeah. He's not actually my enemy. It's just, he's like, he's a big competitor.

Yeah.

Like it's fine. Like it's not like my enemy, like it's fine, whatever. Like, but what I mean is like, there is nothing that makes me happier than every time one of these, and bless you all if you're from Texas, one of these Texas people, you know, says like San Antonio is the number one and then I'm like, I circled the beach in California and I'm like, this is the number. Like, there's nothing. I just, I love it. I love it.

Is that, is that that much different than a picture of a woman in a bikini saying, I went from 0 to 600 ARR in 3 days?

I, I don't know, but I love it. All I know is I love it. All I know is I love it.

And you're enjoying it. That's awesome.

Correct. And I think for me, maybe my journey with it is maybe, and this might, do you agree or disagree with this statement as you've spent a lot of time with me? What I write about on Twitter is very congruent with who I am.

Oh yeah.

I feel like I'm more congruent than maybe how you were using it historically, which is I will write about poetry if I want to do poetry. I will talk about libertarian politics.

No, I'm just that boring. I appreciate that, that you thought I was like, like somehow like carving off this crazy part of my personality and it was coming through very straight. Like, no, that's just how I am.

But you've never, you've never written about Windows and I know you fucking love Windows.

I used to a little bit.

And so for me, what I'm into is what I write. I like the process. I like, I write about Pakistani music because that's what I'm fucking listening to right now. I think like, I don't care if 11 people see it.

What happened though is like, In my sort of Twitter peak, when I was growing from 6K followers to 18K through 2022, I don't know when it was, but it was so good. Everything I tweeted got all these likes and replies, and all these people were DMing me, and it was so good, Jon. And like, every time I post now, it's— I'm like an addict. I'm like, it's not hitting the same. It's not. I need my little ju— like, yeah, I mean, it's like, it just feels like a shell of what it was. I, I can't get that out of my, like, memory of, like, it's, it's the, it's the classic surfer thing, which is you should have been here yesterday. I mean, oh, is that—

you should have been here yesterday. That's—

I don't know. You go to, you, you go to a surfer and let me get my Surf Ohio shirt. They actually sell that. Yeah.

The waves are good today, but you should have been here last winter.

It's good.

You know, it's, it's the just commonality of every surfer. Oh, they're good today, but you should have been here yesterday.

I can't wait to say that when I come out there next month.

You should have, you should have been here yesterday. And so it's like, well, you think Twitter's good here now. You should have been here yesterday.

Totally. Totally.

You know, it's, it's a human nature thing, but I guess for me, there is obviously still business benefit to me, but more importantly than that, I, it's a source of joy. I, and because it's, it's, it's so congruent with who I am. I'm not writing the 11th post on, you know, need, you know, how to get started hiring your first VA. Like, I, I don't write that. That's not what I write.

So what, when you post something that you thought was great and 3 hours goes by, you pull your phone back up and no one's replied or liked it. Does that make you feel any kind of way?

Do you feel that way when you write something in your journal and nobody comments about this brilliant transformation you made in a therapeutic environment or in your journal?

Mm-hmm.

I treat it the same way. Now, if I get more than that, that sounds very healthy.

I'm impressed.

Well, it's, it's, it's an end. Here's what I would say is writing it or making myself laugh or making Kayvon, my co-founder, laugh or making you laugh is an end in and of itself. I, I'm good. I've justified the time and the thinking because of the writing process, the creation process, making you laugh. I'm good. And then if I get other stuff, that's nice little, little feeding addiction, but it's not required for me to enjoy the process itself.

You know, and you've talked a lot about like the quality over the quantity thing. It's not really about the number of engagements and likes and followers. It's about the quality of the people who do see it. And respond and DM you and things like that.

Yes, correct.

Okay. So you were going to wrap up, I think.

So, yeah, I was going to just wrap up, which is if you need a dollars and cents justification, recognize that the respect and admiration of one relationship is worth 10,000 of the wrong type of relationship. And for me, that one relationship I don't have, or that one inbound, or that one connection that I don't have justifies so much behavior because of nonlinearity. Because of— it's not every relationship accumulates of equal value. Our relationship is worth 100,000 people in India following me because I said I'm giving away an iPhone, like and subscribe. And so there's nonlinearity to human relationships and potential and business opportunities. And so for me, I continue to chase nonlinearity because it's not gonna happen one step by one step. It's gonna pop with the guy who's gonna acquire Sagan follows me right now. I just haven't met him yet.

Yeah. This is like the compounding of relationships thing that you hear people say that, oh, you know, relationships compound. Warren Buffett talks a lot about that. When you're young, you're kind of like, I mean, okay, like I guess, but it really doesn't hit till you're older. And you're like, oh, it's Build Your Yacht.

The single, the single best piece of internet writing ever is Build Your Yacht by an anonymous person. It's, it's lights out. It is, it is so good. I can't even, it's the single best piece of internet writing I've ever seen. Hands down.

We'll link to that.

Yeah, please link. But it, I, I, I wish I would have written it. That's how good it is. And that's compounding.

So email, you and I have a like philosophical disagreement on, we're in alignment on a lot of things about email actually. Inbox zero, GTD, your inbox is not a to-do list, all that good stuff. But where we disagree is like responsiveness and the value of it or lack thereof. So the way I handle email is it's not urgent. If someone emails me, it is by definition not urgent. If it was important, I would've heard about it some other way. And so I don't treat email with any type of urgency 99% of the time. I go weeks without looking at my email when I'm traveling for conferences or on vacation. I go a month without checking my work email every June. And even just day to day, like I get to it when I get to it. And you seem to not. Like that.

I actually like— we might agree more than we realize. I actually like what you just said and triggered in my mind a memory of the line, which was somebody was like, if you have a problem with what I do, don't post about it on social media, text me. And if you don't have my phone number, fuck off.

Oh God.

Like, meaning if the only way you can get into contact with Peter is to email him and you don't have an ability to reach him in another way, he'll get to it when he gets to it. Because if I really needed something on your attention, I call you and you're like, yeah, I'll pick up John's phone call because I know John. But if some random person needs to get my attention, they'll get it when I have time for it, for lack of a better— so that's actually not a bad way. I don't mind that framing, but I do have a—

yeah, it's not like a comment on the fact that certain people aren't important to me or something like that. It has much more to do with the fact that with the volume of emails that I get, if I were to be responsive on email, I would not get much else done. And I highly value my long uninterrupted stretches that isn't dealing with correspondence so that I can do really large, cool projects and businesses. And for me, I, email's very addictive. And so that's why, and you notice this theme with me, John, where it's like I sense something about myself and then I just cut it off completely.

That's why I don't have video games in the house, cuz I like 'em too much. Yeah, I, about 10 years ago, I was like, can't ever have video games in the house.

Mm.

What was your game during COVID I got back into StarCraft II, which was very dangerous, but like, what was it before that? Anything, literally anything.

I mean, civilization.

We've had Civ. I played Age of Empires. I played Command and Conquer. I play chess. I mean, I, but I can't— chess I'll let myself do because that's a socially acceptable addiction. But I'll play bullet chess just mindlessly just because I like it so much. I want to just make one different point. And when I was earlier in my career and now from time to time, I would say I still have this, and you may or may not feel this way, but when I started my career, I was a counterpuncher. And what I mean by that is the world gave me a spark and I had to sprint across the football field and try to get that spark. And try to turn it and get kindling on it and then try to take that because I did not have any matches. And I just went around in the darkness and hoped that one little spark got sent and I could just— I had a backpack and I was planning for the day when I got a spark. And that spark could be a relationship with someone or a sale or an inbound lead or a prospective partner or whatever. And when you start your career, you don't have any matches. And at some point in your career, you are no longer a counterpuncher. You're a puncher. Meaning I have a— I don't— not only do I have a bunch of matches, I have 7 bonfires. And so when a spark hits, I don't need to be like running across the football field to get to it. And so what I would say is, if you have a point where you have so much opportunity, you're choosing between opportunities, that is very different to me than when you are You know, you are looking for that spark. I will also add that based on the nature of your business is also your relationship with sparks. Meaning if you're a commercial real estate agent, doesn't matter if you're— if you're that guy in Manhattan with the map room that everybody's freaking obsessed with, that dude, deep cut. But, you know, what's that guy's name? But am I wrong? I don't know. It's a real estate pod. I don't know anything about real estate. But what I mean is that dude, when he's on vacation, is working a deal because it's time sensitive and he's not responsive. But when you're an asset manager with $1 billion in AUM, you get to turn your phone off because it's going to be here next week. And so I think that's also the nature of it, which is I came up in very counterpuncher environments. And as I've gained more leverage, I've earned the right to have a different relationship with sparks. Are you okay with that?

Yeah, there's definitely something there. It's a lot like, you know, in the beginning of your career, take every meeting, say yes to everything, say yes to every coffee, every lunch, right? And then you, when you get really good at that, you suddenly realize you need to turn that crank way the other way.

Correct. I have more opportunities than time right now. Yeah, that was not the case 48 months ago.

And like, if you're earlier in your career or you're in sales, you need to optimize every email response for speed, for availability.

Or you're early in a business or you're early in a product. When you're launching Crane, you're not like, oh, I'll get to those applications whenever. Right now with RL, you're 15 years in. You have a different relationship with inbound email.

Correct. Applications are a little different than correspondence though. If a Crane member emailed me, I wouldn't feel any type of urgency.

You wouldn't?

No.

Oh, interesting.

Hmm. Nothing they're gonna email me about is something that needs a same-day response. Yeah.

I mean, you emailed me this morning something I emailed you 2 months ago and you responded this morning and I have—

but I didn't let it drop, you know? Like, I get to everything.

Yeah. I, I— the other thing I think too that is a part of my approach, I don't get that many emails.

Yeah.

The other bad thing, I don't get that many emails.

In property management, bad stuff comes through email, like really bad stuff. And so you end up getting a little bit afraid of email and so you're like, yeah, tomorrow's fine.

Yeah. That was the joke with Rene Avendano and I, which was we still get the Friday morning scaries because that was when we ran payroll. And that's when we would be tight on cash. So whenever I see Renee's name blink on a Friday morning, I get one second. I'm like, oh wait, I don't own a home improvement business anymore with poor working capital dynamics. And it's just like, you know, we get to talk about good stuff now. So I, I also think it's driven a little bit by property management. Like that's where you get the first version of the I'm going to serve you a lawsuit notice or whatever.

I'm also just— I'm reacting. We'll wrap up here shortly, but I'm reacting against the cultural obsession with email responsiveness that— I mean, we just took a little bit of a nuanced breakdown here, but there is an overall corporate or cultural trend toward fast, fast, fast, now, now, now, me, me, me, that I just hate. I hate that. So maybe it's my engineering background where I'm like, take some time here, do some analysis, gather your thoughts, like This isn't instant message. We're not texting. Yeah, yeah. Like, this is serious business. This is serious correspondence. You're asking somebody's time every time you send an email to them. Would you write a letter about this? Would you?

That's how I feel about memos is would I make a memo out of this? If not, yeah, I treat it differently.

Yeah.

That's how I feel about memos. So one of the things that we end Lazy Leverage with, and I'm happy to start it, you can, is something we're reading, a tool we're using. Automation that we're digging these days, just because you and I are in it building stuff, trying stuff. I've got one I know that I'm thinking a lot about. Do you have one that you want to start with?

Yep. So I'll mention this thing called Plaud, plaud.ai, which is basically like those AI note takers that come into Zoom. It's the physical version of that. So it's this little credit card size thing that magnets on the back of your phone and with one button you turn it on. And it can record an in-person conversation even in a noisy environment. And it'll do an AI analysis. It'll summarize transcription, all that good stuff. It'll even identify individual speakers and then you can name them. And it's got a little switch if you want to, you can record phone calls in that same way with the same tool. It's very, very, very slick. And I've been impressed with it.

That actually goes a little bit, and I want to talk about this offline with you, when we hit pause before we wind up because we're doing some stuff there. But what I was going to actually say before you even said that, which was I am all in on voice because you've always been big on voice because I'm lazy and transcription and summarization and everything. I think people's relationship with how they interact with technology is going to fundamentally shift because everybody's used to Alexa and Siri, which stink, and they still think that that's the only— Alexa, call Peter, call Peter P. And you're just like used to banging your head. And that's like 5 years ago. And some of the new stuff coming out that we're doing right now is going to let you to do things like call a phone line, search CRM, add a note, have it tell you the last time the customer talked to you and then send you a text when you— all from your voice. And it's— you're used to like Siri, like, text wife. And that era is over. And I think the implications of that are just being felt like across businesses. And it's just such a better way to do stuff.

This makes me think of two things. One is Star Trek. I mean, Star Trek, exactly like Star Trek, just talking to the computer.

Yeah, I'm a TNG guy. Yeah, I like the TNG. Yeah.

The other thing this makes me think of is I had my mind blown with an AI thing today. Pretty small, but really, really cool. So I, we love, we love and use Airtable here at RL Property Management. And one of the powerful things about Airtable is you can build these formulas to do calculations on the cells and everything. Well, I don't know when, but Airtable added an AI code writer to the little formula thing. So instead of trying to like spend 25 minutes reading the documentation to figure out like The example today was we had, we're trying to track how long it takes us to do unit turns. And so we want to know what's the date, the date of that we got keys when the tenant moved out to the day the unit was listed. And we have both of those dates and columns in Airtable. So the hard work's done. I just needed to do a little calculation. So I tried doing, you know, date we listed the unit minus date we received keys and it gave an error message. And it's like, you couldn't just do that subtraction. You needed to do some special formula. I didn't know what it was. I could have figured it out. That's what I did last time. But instead they have this little AI thing. So I just wrote calculate blah blah, you know, in plain English, just as if I was explaining it to a programmer who was sitting next to me. Generate, instantly generated the code, hit apply, done. In 2 seconds, what would've taken me 20 minutes of manually, you got little bugs and like it's not working. And then I even did an adjustment. I was like, okay, I need this to be business days, not calendar days. Instantly updated it, fixed, working, no problem. Amazing. Amazing.

The stuff that we're doing right now is mind-blowing with the democratization of writing code. And we're going to talk about it. We could do a whole episode. We should do lots of, you know, we're doing this whole digital power tools thing. Yeah. At Sagan. So it's just, yeah, man, I think it's an exciting new era.

Really cool stuff, man. Well, John, thanks for coming on my show and giving a little preview to my audience of what you and I talk about on Lazy Leverage. And listeners, thank you for coming along with me for season 4. I hope this was enjoyable for you, and I will talk to you over at Lazy Leverage. If not, I will see you for season 5 of the podcast. Thanks everybody. I hope you have enjoyed this episode. If you like the show and want to get connected to the community, you can follow me on Twitter @PSLohmann and subscribe to my email newsletter on my website, peterlohmann.com. I try to share as much valuable property management content as I can on a regular basis. Thanks again for listening and have a great week. Mm-hmm.