From Attorney to Speaker: The Identity Shift That Changes Everything | Wani Iris Manly, Esq. | 721

Can one decision change the trajectory of an entire life? For Mwani Iris Manley, the answer is yes. What began as a personal search for greater freedom and fulfillment eventually led her across the Atlantic, away from her successful legal career and towards a calling as a speaker author, and advocate for transformation. Along the way, she discovered that the most powerful lessons weren't about changing circumstances. They were about changing identity. Her thought leadership journey is a story of courage, reinvention, and trusting a vision before anyone else can see it. I'm Bill Sherman, and you're listening to Leveraging Thought Leadership. Let's begin. Welcome to the show, Wani.

Thank you for having me, Bill. It's good to be here.

So we've been talking and you shared with me just before we started recording, you've got some news, something that has you excited. What is it?

Well, I'm actually speaking this summer in Monaco, one of my favorite principality in south of France, and I'm gonna be speaking from 2,000 people. That will be the largest audience I've ever spoken in front of. So it really hasn't quite set in yet, but yeah, it's in writing. It's in my LinkedIn. DM, and I'm just like blown away by it and super excited.

So let's stay in that news for a moment.

Yeah.

What does it feel like? What are the emotions you have as you're thinking about that largest audience?

It feels like it's about time, you know, because I've been speaking for quite a bit. And when I first got the vision of me being a speaker, it was literally, I saw myself speaking in stadium-sized audiences. I kid you not, like football fields, you know? And up until date, the largest have been like 300, 400, like my TED Talk that I did in Northern Ireland and then another one that I did in Canada. But I've never been in front of that large of a crowd and I'm so ready for it, you know? And it's like I've been cold pitching for so long. I've been doing so many podcasts. I've been in so much putting out there for thought leadership and everything. And you're just like, where's my stuff?

Well, and there's a couple layers, right? It's sort of like the musician that dreams of playing at Wembley Stadium and knows they have a bunch of small venues, music halls, and bars and that to build up and build momentum to, right?

Yeah, 100%. It's like you just think you're ready for big time, or you were meant for magic, or meant for so much more than what you've been playing at. But I really understand as well too. There is a process, you know, in terms of like, you know, universal order and things have to line up the way they actually have to line up. And so I'm really quite excited about that. And I'm also grateful as well too. So I'm not that arrogant in the sense of like, you know, but it's like, yeah, it's about time.

Well, and this is one of the things that I wanna probe really is the journey, right? So with that, Let me start with one question.

Mm-hmm.

You're an attorney by training.

Yeah.

How did you come to be living in Paris, doing thought leadership and speaking? Because that wasn't the life that you started down, right?

Nope, not at all. You know, I actually thought I was groomed to be a lawyer since I was a child, just based on my family background. Um, and Really, it was really one decision that I made abruptly on New Year's Eve in Miami. I decided not to go out and party with my friends to bring in the new year, but to really sit and to analyze and to look at what I had done the year before. This was New Year's Eve in 2010. And that decision that day, I literally looked at my life of, okay, what went wrong, what went right? Then looking at, okay, what were my beliefs about myself? And then just really future casting what I really wanted to experience, be to, and have. Not just in 2011, but just like the trajectory of my life. At the time when I was writing that day, I never said that I wanted to leave Miami, but I was yearning for a big change. I was just like, "Oh my God, please give it to me. Like, I've done this already." And 3 days later, like, my entire wall became invaded all of these signs about Paris, Paris, Paris, France. And I, at the time, I wasn't, you know, typical American, all like cuckoo for coco, crazy puffs about anything that says made in France in it. So, and I had my family's from Liberia, West Africa. Which isn't a Francophone country, so it just didn't make any sense at all. So long story short, over like after receiving like 1 year of daily signs, I sold my apartment, I sold my car, I gave all my things to different charities. I'm in Paris, moved there, don't know a single person, not 1 word of French, not having any plan A, B, C, D whatsoever. And that, I didn't know I was, when I got to Paris, I was just an attorney, which I've been all my entire life. And so what ended up happening was, I just became infused inspiration. Books started being, you know, poured out of me. I got published in a magazine like for expats and people sort of recognized, oh my gosh, like you're the girl.

And I'll want to go through the journey, but let's stay back on that New Year's Eve journaling.

Mm-hmm.

What did you say in that? Because I can envision one version, which would be prophetic in terms of the, okay, I want to be a speaker talking in stadium-sized arenas, right? Was that in your New Year's sort of description, or what was the vision then as you were journeying?

At that time, speaking was not in my vision at all, even though I had met someone years back in a retreat in Miami who said to me, you belong on stage. Like, what's this lawyer thing you're doing? Like, I see you doing like a TED Talk, you know? But at that time, I was like, I said from 2 years old, you know, in my 30s, like, it's just been practicing law. So, For me at the time, I was struggling. I had just started my law, my new brand new law firm. I came from like a mid-sized law firm where everything was provided for you, semi-corner office, driving a Porsche, marble building, everything was there, like lunches provided. And so there I was, like sort of my own thing, didn't know anything about, you know, how to be an entrepreneur, but just how to be a lawyer and was like the breadwinner, was a rainmaker, was having to go out there. And it was very, very difficult. And so for me, I wanted financial freedom. I wanted to make at least the same amount of money as I was making at the firm. I wanted like a steady clientele. I just, I wanted stability because at that time I was like, whoa, I left that, but I just kind of threw myself into the wolves. And so for me, it was like a better quality of my life. It was, you know, it was also just to have more freedom. It's funny because I left the firm because I wanted time freedom, but then now I have the time freedom and the money freedom was gone as well too. So I wanted that back., but I just wanted to fly, you know, I wanted to soar. I wanted to, there was a sense of being a lawyer was just too small for me and like, it was just like too small of a box, but I didn't know what else there, what else there was because I have been groomed, like I said, like my entire career path.

And I want to, to pull that forward, right? You said you were groomed to be an attorney. You trained, you were practicing in a midsize firm.

Yeah.

And then you pick up and you go to Paris, and almost in every country I've landed in, you fill out the landing card and you have to declare occupation.

I—

and I'm betting you didn't write thought leader on the landing card.

I don't even know what it was at that time. I— that term, like, never came in my, you know, in my sphere. I— no, not at all. Not at all.

Right. So you mentioned that, hey, I started writing for an article and for— it was for other expats. Let's talk about that story. And I really want to dial in on how the transition from an attorney journaling on New Year's to, hey, I'm speaking, I'm writing, I'm doing these frameworks That's a transformation. So let's stay in the transformation.

Yeah. So what ended up happening?

You're in Paris, there's a café, it's a lovely time. What's going on in your world, Wani?

At that time, what happened was that when I got there, I literally just like, books just started being, just coming out of me and like, meaning like I, my first book was just downloaded to me. I was like writing like crazy. I was being awakened at 2 o'clock in the morning and just like writing books. And so I would go to cafés where I literally was like writing on the napkins. I couldn't stop it, you know what I mean? I was in the zone of genius, which is very weird because I was never a writer before. So it was just all very brand new to me. And so I did what every expat do when we go overseas, you just join a bunch of expat groups. And so I happened to be one, like one of the largest ones called Expats, you know, Living in Paris. And so the editor, he was from the UK, I just happened to see a post that says, "Hey, I'm looking for really interesting stories." about why you moved to Paris. I don't want to hear about because I'm following my husband or I came here to work, like something like, you know, off the cuff or just kind of, and I said, okay. And I say, hey, I raised my hand. I say, hey Kevin, this is my story, moving, following science, New Year's Eve. And I say, I just had this like a blogger write up, you know, a blog about me in New York. I sent it to him. He was like, oh my God, can you cut it down to like 600 words and give it to me in 24 hours? Which for a lawyer, that's very difficult. I was up all night trying to, you know, be less verbose. And so it got legal brief.

Yes, you know, self-reflective article.

Yeah. And so it was because he wanted to publish it like in the December issue. And so I was published, and that particular magazine was distributed all across Paris at the Starbucks, at the embassies, at just like, you know, very key strategic places. And so people just sort of like recognized when I was stepping out in Paris, like, oh my— and I would just be being reached out to, hey, I saw your story in Expatia magazine. Can you come and speak at my soirée? So I explained.

And that involved one of the embassies, didn't it?

No, it was, there was a woman. The very first time I spoke was a woman named Patricia Laplante Collins, like a very, an anchor Black American in Paris, lived there for like, I think like 40 years. And she basically created this event called Patricia's Soirées where every Sunday she would invite like a guest speaker to come and speak to her, you know, to the And then the audience, people would pay, I think like €12 and it was like for the dinner and for the wine. And so that was like the whole shit. So she was the first one, but then like that was beginning of the first of many. So I just started speaking like different soirées, 'cause people saw my story and that's how I started speaking and starting the thought leadership and started writing. It was crazy.

So you're telling your story in the expat magazine. Yeah, you're telling your story at soirées. When does it start migrating to thought leadership and you have a thing to say, a topic to talk about? Because that's a shift between let me tell you my story and here's my framework that you can use, right?

Yeah, it really came to me because I had the problem where a lot of, I feel like high achievers have, where like we just do things extraordinary or we have something extraordinary to say, but we don't think of it that way because it's just like, it's just me, right? And so for me, it really came down from people requesting me. Like I just became in demand for people wanting me to come and to speak. And I was like, wait a minute, there's something is here, you know? And so it was just more of like what the world was reflecting upon me. And I was like, maybe there's something here. And then I also started looking at how I actually felt when I was sharing that, how much joy I was actually feeling than say, for example, when I was drafting a contract, which used to be like my first love. Like you could have put me in a, you know, in a room with no windows for 8 hours and I would just draft my heart away. But I was like, wait, I feel more alive. I feel more in spirit, more inspired when I'm speaking and sharing these thoughts. And people are saying, me too.

So that's an interesting transformation. Behind the laptop, drafting documents, doing calls with clients, different skill set than standing up in front of a room of people listening or trying to persuade them about an idea. Contracting is usually, or at least contracting and documents, I think, much more as the record of, and you may be guiding. Talk about that shift in advocacy, because you could think of thought leadership as being a zealous advocate for an idea rather than for a client. Does that work in your world? Does that make sense and land?

It does, because, you know, I actually created a business called Where Inspiration Meets Law, and it's exactly what's connecting consciousness, thought leadership, spirituality in business with the law. And so I actually, because that's who, that's who I am. I have, I'm very much, I have a foot in both worlds of the law, the legal, the money part, but then also too in spirit, consciousness, thought leadership, sharing, speaking. And so for me, I think what I was getting on with the, on the thought leadership and the speaking part was like, I felt like I was connecting to people's hearts. Because on the law side, I was talking to CEOs all the time and it was just, okay, just get it done. I'm happy. Here's, you know what I mean? It was just very, let's, business people, you know, um, where—

There's a reason it's called transactional law because it feels transactional, right?

Very.

Rather than relational.

Yeah, exactly. So the other part was just relational and it was just like a very natural flow to it, even though it's a different flow because I've been a lawyer for so long, there's a flow with that. But then there was, on the other side, it was just like, there was a flow, there was a feeling behind it like, oh wow, like this just feels like what I'm supposed to be doing.

So how do you define yourself currently? I mean, there's many different labels you could pick from, you know, or roles that you could say, that's me. But how do you see yourself at this point?

I see myself as someone who's just living the life that she really wants, you know? And it's not just because I wrote a book on it because I really, I realized what's most important in this world is actually being happy, you know? And I really love the story about John Lennon and story about how, you know, his teacher gave the assignment like, you know, what do you wanna be when you grew up? And everybody wrote doctor, lawyer, X, Y, and Z. And he wrote, I wanna be happy. And the teacher's like, you don't understand the assignment. And he goes, no, you don't understand life. And so for me, it's more of like, and that's my single central goal in Zao Iké and everything that I'm doing every day is in alignment for that. And so to take the path, and I actually, you know, I, I look, I, I'm very intentional about it, is what I'm doing putting me in that alignment with me being ultimately happy, which means doing with what I really love and having the thought leadership, the speaking and the sharing and the writing, which is, yeah, it's an alignment of all that.

I love the answer and I love how you framed those as an outgrowth of that, one of the things that I sort of anchor to on thought leadership is it is work. It's hard work. And like you were talking about before, hey, I've done a lot of speaking events, I've had the dream, and finally, right? Yeah. The phrase I use a lot is do the work, find the joy for thought leadership. And whether it's in those moments of connection when someone comes up to you after a talk or they send you an email because they've read your book and it landed, or they watched a TED Talk, there are so many ways that you get signals back. Yeah, that the ideas have landed, that they've made impact. And I've heard many practicing thought leaders say that is part of the joy is the signal coming back. Is that true for you?

100%, which is why I love podcasting. And the beauty of podcasting, having this conversation is that, you know, you never know who's listening. You never know who was gonna— I— there is no attachment to what's gonna happen from this conversation today, but how I'm feeling right now, it's just palatable. It's like there's a hope. My heart is open. It's like, There's a connection here, you know, and you just can't package that.

There's an immediacy and a presence that's live that even though the artifact will be a published podcast, we are here talking and exploring unscripted. And so let's talk about the future for you, Wani.

Yeah.

You know, What are the dreams? What are the aspirations? Where next? What are you striving for?

Where next? On a professional level, the legal background will be put to rest 100%. And that's— it took me work to get there. You know, I think for those of us that are in these regular professions and, you know, in these CFO, C-suite executives where You know, we are just, we sort of think that we have this one role in life to play, and life is so, you're gonna have many different roles, but because we work so hard for it, and if you were educated in the United States, it's very expensive. I mean, most lawyers come out with 6-figure student loan debt, you know? So letting go of all of that and also too, like, the identity of it has been quite the process. And so eventually that will be, I will be like a Yanli Vance somewhere, like Yanli Vance, I don't know who she is, but she's a lawyer, Mel Robbins. Is a former attorney as well too. So it'd just be something like that to where it's just all me speaking and it's not this, the law firm is not existing anymore. And it's just writing books and making speeches.

You talk about the former attorney identity and that transition. My wife also went to law school, practiced, and then set that aside. And she went through a process where she went from, I'm an attorney, to I was trained as an attorney, to I'm a former attorney. And there's, there's really an identity shift. And I can't even imagine with you, like you said, you were developed to become an attorney from childhood. That piece of the identity has to be sticky.

It's not even a piece, it's the entire identity. You know, it's literally as my skin, you know, it's like, you just cannot tell me that I'm not a lawyer. You know, it's so ingrained in me to the point where, you know, some of the reasons I'm asking, like, you know, how did you make the shift to being a speaker? And I literally have to affirm myself every single day. I am a keynote speaker in change. I am a speaker. I literally have to tell myself every day because that's a whole different identity that served the subconscious mind. Has to get along. Like, what do you mean? We've been doing this for like, for 22 years. What do you mean you're a speaker? You know? So it, it, it's, it's work. It's work.

What do you mean it's a speaker? Mom, dad, or family look at you and go, but wait a minute, what are you doing over there?

That's all. Exactly. That's a whole nother part of the whole issue as well too, because like, yeah, because a lot of it too was like, it's their dream or it's their It was their intention, right? Like, and so you don't want—

right, right, right.

You don't want to fail them. And so that's part of the hard part of letting it go. It's like, you don't want to let down your family, your parents, and like, cause they're so proud of you, you know, but it's like, I'm doing something else. Mm-hmm.

So there's a difference between the North American speaking market and the European speaking market. And while we've often had guests that play in one or the other, you're active in both.

Yes.

What differences do you see? And let's talk about them for a moment because they are very different markets for speaking.

Yeah, they are. So even though I do both, I am primarily in the US market because the US market pays more for that. They pay more. And so there's not this You know, there's a, a seeing of it as a profession, whereas in, on the European market, it's like, oh, just come and share. And I'm like, this is a business. Like, this is a company behind this that's paying taxes. And, you know, you have to understand when I'm preparing to speak, mean I'm not billing somebody else. It's like, so there's like more having to advocate for your fees and more having to push for that. Um, and fees are still much, much lower. And I feel like a lot of it too has just been, and it just may be what I'm actually, the circles I've actually have been with, but it's more of an inspirational thing. Like, oh my God, your journey is so nice and so inspired. Whereas like over here in America, I feel like I come and train my people. Come and shift, come and act.

We want your framework. We want the ahas.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The frameworks are just easier to sell in the United States than it is.— you know, continent Europe. And I would say the UK is a little bit better in terms of like, because they, you know, we pretty much kind of follow each other. But everywhere else, like say Germany or, you know, or France or— yeah, it's, it's work. It's hard work.

Well, and sometimes I wonder how much that's influenced by especially U.S., but North American or even Anglo, um, individualistic culture, right? Yeah. And we as Americans tend to skew much more individualistic and to be able to be direct and say, this is my speaking fee, and rather than other— in other countries because I know that American-based speakers, if they go to Europe or other places overseas, there's a different perception. And I wonder, since you're based in Paris, if you're evaluated more as European rather than an American coming over to deliver a speech.

Nope, I'm an American, and, and it's the— with the Paris connection as well too. So I am It's the American, American speaker living in Paris, and then that my story.

The question I was asking though is, are you perceived and judged on the European scale rather than the American scale for speakers coming over? And I think the answer might be yes.

Yes. Yeah.

And that's just the challenge of geography and the choice of of home.

Yes.

So you wind up spending more time on planes coming back to the States.

Exactly. Exactly. I do. And so it's just, yeah, you know, I was talking to, because like one of the big companies there is like Orange, you know, which is like their big telecom companies. And so, um, you know, I, you know, I know someone in HR, she wanted to get me to speak there. And like when I just showed my EP, she was like, whoa. And she was like, The market here, she's like, unless you're a celebrity and it's like, they just like, even if you're a celebrity, they just want to come to this Cherokee. I'm like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, this is not scary. So it's just a very different market. And so you just kind of like knowing that, I just know where to play. I know where to pitch and I know what to do, you know? And I, luckily for me, I love being on airplanes anyway, so I don't mind. And so yeah, if it's local and I, and if it's, I do have to, you do have to look to adjust your fees unless you're a celebrity like a Tony Robbins, like that. But you know, everyone else, you do have to kind of like, you know, drop your fees a little bit to, you know, to get some payment.

Now you also mentioned, and this is a question I don't know the answer to, North American, Europe, you mentioned you have Liberian ancestry.

Yes.

Have you done any speaking on the African continent? And if so, what is that market like?

I have not been. So my family's from Liberia, but I was born in the United States and then I was, I was raised in both countries and then also too educated in Europe. I am actually been pitching African diaspora podcasts because I do want to tap into that market because I do wanna, I do wanna speak there. I have done some pitches to South Africa. It just didn't, Nothing came out of that. I was approached to speak in Liberia, but they just weren't even like, I had to, it would have to be like 100% self-funded trip and they just couldn't meet me. And I was like, there's gotta be some type of something.

Right. How do you make this work?

Yeah, exactly. So I was like, come to me when you have, when you have a budget or something, because it just can't be 100% where I'm, I'm self-funding it. And so, but I will like, I would like to go there. So for me, for now, it's actually. Reaching out to African podcasters and so, and making connections that way.

So you talked about guesting on podcasts, but I think I just heard you also say, hey, I'm interested in an African diaspora podcast. Are you thinking of becoming a host?

You know, this has been— I've been guided to do a podcast, but I don't quite know what it would actually be about just yet. You know, if it's just going to be about change, I just, I, because one, I tend to be impulsive. I tend to just like jump in and then I feel—

Which is the only way that you pick up from Miami, go to Paris and sell the sports car, right?

Yeah, but I'm also a business person as well too. So it's okay. Like, you know, it just has gotta be like, there's a business aspect to it. So I really have not sat down yet to really to say, okay, what's the business model for this? And what's the angle that I do wanna take? Because As much as I do speak, you know, speak and train on change, the Paris story for me is a big seller in terms of like, it's a big— and because of the resilience part is piece as well too, because it answers the question, why you, right? Yeah.

There's a lot of people on change. You've got an amazing story.

Yeah. So it's just like, dude, because the resilience piece is just as in demand too, because like, for example, I want— there was a period of hell, you know, it wasn't just all like, you know, just drinking champagne and eating croissants and, you know, all hunky-dory. So I lost a lot of my clients.

So not Emily in Paris, Wanda in Paris.

No, not at all. I mean, like, literally, like, my mantra was, it's not working is not an option. Like, that's my resilience mantra that I came up with. Like, there's no going back, you know what I mean? So eventually I will be, I will create my own podcast, but right now I just enjoy what I'm doing right now because I love the connections I've been making with people like you. Like, I'm in Houston right now recording this. I've done 2 podcasts in Houston. I've actually met the host here in Houston. So I love the connection, the connection piece of it.

So let's wrap up. And I want to end with asking you a question. You've chosen to carry a message around change, resilience, and you're working on creating impact in people's lives. If you were to distill that message down into one sentence, maybe two, what is that idea that you're carrying that you want others to hear?

It is that change is internal. You know, it's, you know, we're all waiting for the ex— something on the outside to change, to change our lives, to change our organizations. Like, no. We have to become a different person for whatever change we want, whatever we want in our lives to be changed for it to become so. That's what Paris is all about for me. That's what when I— the framework of change changes everything. It really is the identity shift has to change within your own self for whatever else on the external for you want to change. And until you be changed internally, whether it's just perspective, whether it's how you react, whether it's what you're believing, whether it's what you're feeling the inside, Nothing on the external is gonna actually change. Whether it's a business, in a marriage, on a, on whatever level you're trying to do, it's not gonna work unless you become a different person.

Wonderful. Wani, thank you for joining us today and sharing your journey.

Thank you for having me. Thank you to your listeners.

Okay, you've made it to the end of the episode, and that means you're probably someone deeply interested in thought leadership. Want to learn even more? Here are 3 recommendations. First, check out the back catalog of our podcast episodes. There are a lot of great conversations with people at the top of their game in thought leadership, as well as just starting out. Second, subscribe to our newsletter that talks about the business of thought leadership. And finally, feel free to reach out to me. My day job is helping people with big insights take them to scale through the practice of thought leadership. Maybe you're looking for strategy, or maybe you want to polish up your ideas, or even create new products and offerings. I'd love to chat with you. Thanks for listening.