Episode 29: Dylan Field, Figma Co-founder, Talks Design, Digital Economy, and Remote Culture with Host Connie Yang

Hey everyone, welcome to The Distributed Podcast. I'm your host for today, Connie Yang. I am the Head of Payments Design at Stripe. And I want to give a huge thanks to Matt Mullenweg for allowing me the opportunity to host this podcast. I'm super excited to have an opportunity to talk to one of the leaders in advancing design technology and changing how we all in the industry work together. Dylan Field is not only co-founder and CEO of Figma, a collaborative design tool used by some of the biggest design teams in the space, he's also a leading advocate for bringing more designers into companies and the importance of the role of design in building successful products. He's also a huge proponent of community and an open source approach to design. Dylan, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thanks, Connie. It's really good to see you.

Good to see you too. And, uh, Dylan, before we even get into Figma and all the momentum you've built, let's start by talking about design itself.

Okay.

It seems like you had some amazing insight nearly 10 years ago now, on the importance of designers on teams, the way we work with one another and how we work with even non-designers. What did you discover about design in those early days that motivated you to dive into this world of design and creativity?

Yeah, so I, I've always been interested in design and excited about design and product, but I think I started getting really excited about and interested in how do we make design tools better, uh, when I started working full-time as a design intern at Flipboard and At the time I was watching how the tools worked. We were in Fireworks pretty much every single day and collaborating through a Dropbox folder. We had attempts to do a blog where we could post work in progress, but honestly all the collaboration was a mess and that was with a very design-forward team. Flipboard was very excited about let's go make— Flipboard was really into let's go make design a really core part of the product experience and how we build product. And leaving Flipboard, I was thinking a lot about creative tools and my co-founder Evan and should we go and build a company on this? And on the list was always design. We thought this would be a great area to go into is interface design, but we weren't sure the market was big enough. But honestly, once we figured out the market was there, the problems were very clear. The experience of designing a product was not synchronous at all. You had all these different sources of truth. There was no one source of truth you could rely on. I remember the version problem where you have final_final_2, you never know which one is the latest version. And then I started interviewing people at large organizations and would hear stories about how a file would go halfway across the org at a super large enterprise. And suddenly you've got some random product manager somewhere who's like mad at some other product manager because they think that they're doing something that they're not even doing anymore because that was like 3 months ago. And the single source of truth problem was really huge. I think as we started to think about, okay, what does it take to scale design teams up? Design systems are incredibly important in that role. And without a design system, it's really hard to keep things consistent or scalable. And the more that we kind of pull this thread, the more we learn in terms of there's so much to do in terms of making design better. And also so much to do in terms of making it so that more people can access design within the organization. And I think we started to have this thesis about it's just really important to get more people to do more design and for companies to invest more in design. And that's how companies will win or lose in the future. And I think that's played out and is playing out now, which is really exciting to see.

Yeah, I mean, now has been a really interesting time, especially for Figma, right? So we're almost 2 years into the pandemic. Lots of change. What are some of the top trends that you've seen change with designing remotely and the way that we work?

I think there's a lot of changes generally in the way that work happens right now, especially for teams that were not distributed before. The teams that have been distributed this entire time, I don't know how much change they've seen during the pandemic in terms of the way that they work. But I think that the main thing that changes once you go from in-person to remote is you can no longer rely on physical context to instill culture. Hmm. And it matters even more to elevate the role of design and elevate anything you think is really important in that digital context. And digital contexts have no walls. They are flat, but they're not— they still have these systems in place where, for example, if I in a digital context, I don't intentionally make time to talk with somebody, that conversation will not happen. Whereas in an office, we might run into each other on the way to the bathroom or something or waiting for a drink at the kitchen. I think that you have to be really— it's really important to be intentional about creating those serendipitous moments. And also I think to elevate the things that you hold dear as a company. I think that the other thing that's happened as we've all gone remote and during the pandemic is that we've gone from a physical economy to digital economy. And we've gone from physical spaces to digital spaces in terms of where we congregate. And I don't think these are, like, new trends or a new thing that's happened. I think actually it's been happening for decades. But now we're at a place where all of a sudden it happened all at once and accelerated massively. And so as you go from a physical economy to a digital economy, it's really important to create a great digital product experience. Otherwise, you're not going to win. And it turns out that everything, everyone, every company needs to do this to survive right now. Whether you're at Stripe and you're creating a payments API, it actually does matter how good your design is. Whereas maybe 10, 20 years ago, people would assume actually doesn't matter at all. If you're a bank, if you want to survive against a challenger bank, you better have a great design. If you're a company that's doing logistics or industrial, you need to actually have really well-designed processes inside the company and good internal tools. And if you don't design those well, you might lose out to Amazon. And so I think that we're seeing every part of the economy shape around design and realize that design is a core part of how they win or lose.

Yeah, and I love hearing all these specific examples that you're bringing up at how these different companies should be thinking about building products. This is kind of a funny question. How do you think companies are Do you think they're getting better at designing remotely whether they use Figma or not? Like, is it even possible to design remotely without Figma now?

Well, we definitely saw a lot of people that as they went into a remote design scenario, they really wanted Figma. Yeah. So I'm not an expert on the workflows outside of Figma as much, but I think it is less painful to design in Figma than not in Figma in general. And it's definitely true for remote teams. But what do you think? Because you're in Figma a lot.

We are. We are definitely a Figma-oriented team. So I also, like, I was trying to imagine what was that world like, you know, we had the, you know, issues with updated files, sending things across, all the stuff that you brought up earlier. So I sort of can't imagine with the speed that we have to work now and the amount of distributed teams that we have, I can't imagine designing without Figma. That's pretty rough for me, but hey, props. I'll take that. Definitely appreciate the tool. And so Dylan, you and I have actually met a number of times before, including co-judging a really big hackathon for crypto projects a few years ago. But big events like this are still not happening live. And, you know, some will probably be forever remote from now on. So changing landscape, how can we still support events like this? Is Figma doing anything?

Well, I think that again, it's about going from physical spaces to digital spaces. And if you look at how people are interacting online right now, there's so much happening, whether it's just on Twitter, but also in virtual spaces, whether that's VR or Gather Town or, you know, people are finding stuff like Clubhouse or Twitter Spaces. We've even seen in Figma, people have started to hang out in Figma and that inspired FigJam. Which is our digital whiteboarding tool. And we started watching how people were interacting in Figma, which is basically this abstracted canvas, how they're greeting each other, how they're talking to each other, they're typing text. And we literally, we saw Slack went down one day and people started to really just interact with each other over Figma instead. Wow. And, you know, I'm not saying that we're competing with Slack. We know we're not. No interest in that. But I think as we've seen more people go in these spaces, they just want a place to play. And they want a place to have these experiences and to be with people and be collaborative. And I think that design is a really interesting place and role and activity to do where you're visually creating with each other. And the more that you're visually creating, the less you're coming from a place of fear during a pandemic, the less that you have ego involved. You're just able to get in the sandbox and play. I've been really excited to see people do that in Figma, in FigJam. I think that in terms of the literal interpretation of your question around getting people together in person or together in event spaces, I think that there's just so much around that. We've thrown a few conferences, DreamHack. We threw one recently around design systems called Schema, threw a Config every year, and just finding ways to have people gather around an event around a, maybe it's a product announcement or maybe it's a topic that everyone cares about, But both finding ways to bring people together, but also not have the wideness of the internet be a distraction. There's so many ways that people that are trolls can come in or noise can get high. And so you have to be very intentional with that too, while also making it so people are able to have that access because that's a beautiful thing I think about digital events is that they're not exclusive anymore. You don't have to find your way to San Francisco to come to Config. And it's hard to imagine going back from that. Even though there's real benefits to having a physical event, you know, it's just really lovely to have that access for everyone in our community.

Yeah. And it's like opening a gate. Like, why would you, why would you close that again?

Yeah.

I really liked how you referenced so much of the word play when describing Figma. And one sidebar I want to dig into a little bit. When you say you watch designers or you see people using in the space, what is that kind of user research like for you guys? Like, are you literally watching designers?

Well, we do a combination of things. I mean, we talk to people, we watch people. In sort of user research sessions use Figma. We talk about their sort of lived experience and ask them questions about how they use it, look at artifacts people create. We look at the way we use it ourselves too. That's a huge way we learn. And then I think also just it's, for example, for FigJam, one of the things I heard most about was how people were excited to do these playful things in it. When we watched ourselves use it, that's what inspired the name FigJam. It's a playful name. We were using it and we're trying different things and seeing what resonated with our own team. And the playfulness part was just definitely the thing that we came away with is like, wow, there's so many directions it can go, but play and fun and getting to a state of flow with your team, that's such a big part of FigJam and what it should mean to ideate and brainstorm with each other. And so from there it was like, okay, how do we double down on this? And so we just did a design sprint for a day and we came up with maybe 60 ideas. And then 3 of them we implemented around 3. We did stuff like cursor chat, emoji reactions, stamps, audio chat, and plus widgets were starting to be born there, which is a way to basically embed a widget onto the FigJam canvas you can use in your whiteboard and many more things that we haven't shipped yet. But it was like one day with one clear intention and it was amazing what came out of it. And that's when I think we knew we were like, okay, we're onto something here.

Wow, that's awesome. We'd love to dig into that story a little bit more later. For now, another question about design overall. What are some of the hardest problems about remote design that you haven't been able to solve yet?

I think it goes back to serendipity, what we were talking about earlier. I think that tools are doing a better job of this more and more, but still there's so much to do to try to figure out how do you create serendipity in digital environments and across distributed teams. One thing we've tried, which is actually it's Interesting we're talking this week because it's Maker Week right now for us.

Oh, wow.

And we always try to have different little attempts to figure out what we can do here during Maker Weeks. And so one thing we're doing right now is we have these little crews. We have a space theme. It's called Figmaverse this week. Every week Maker Week has a different theme. And last year in the winter, it was Figma Land. And this time they're like, we got to think bigger, Figmaverse. So awesome. Not my idea, but someone on our team, Anthony, came up with it. And it's cool because they have these little, they call them quote unquote squads or crews, I think. With your crew, you can all come together and you've got 6 to 8 people that you can bounce ideas off each other, share what you're up to, but also play this sort of metagame on top of Maker Week. And it's a random assortment of people you might not meet otherwise in the company, but it's trying to create those connections that otherwise you might not have. And I think the more you can do that across the company, the more you can create these experiences people can bond over. Another thing I've done is new hire breakfasts, just trying to get people that are joining the company that are new, 6 to 8 at a time. We have breakfast together and just talk about whatever people want to talk about. And it's totally casual, usually not too related to Figma, though if people want to talk about that, we can. And it's just a way for people to get to know each other across the company and start to connect those nodes.

Yeah, I loved hearing about ways you're intentionally trying to bring more serendipity into the space. And it's not always about work. It can be about anything. Yeah.

But I think that can be done not just on the company-wide context, but also in a team context. And so, yeah, while it's an answer that's not about design, it's about just broadly about companies, I think that it's true for designers as well. And it's so important for designers to be invigorated and challenged and inspired by people that are coming from lots of different backgrounds and from lots of different areas of the company. Otherwise, they're not going to do their best work. They won't think of the challenge cases in their head. They won't think of the random idea that might solve the problem. It's important to get inputs from everywhere.

Yeah, absolutely. So you've become a really well-respected thought leader about the role of design and how we work. What is something really important that you've learned about designers that influences your vision for Figma and your leadership of the company?

One thing that I've learned about design and designers, and I feel like it's similar to many of my other answers, but I think it's really important. Is just how inclusive the best designers are and how much they bring other people into the fold. I've seen this with the best designers I've worked with, and I expect you've seen the same, but there's such a stereotype among designers, or at least there was, of a designer that goes off into the ivory tower or the corner and they put their headphones on and they just type their Mac for a while or use a pen and a Wacom tablet. Yeah, heard of this. They are just, they're solitary, they're a genius, they come up with the idea, they come to crit, they present it, everyone's jaw drops on the floor and that's it and you ship it. And that's just not how it works. And so, I mean, that was our hypothesis going to Figma, but I think just to see it play out and to see how much is the truth and how much designers as well appreciate that myth breaking down and appreciate the collaborative process that can come along with design and breaking down those barriers and bringing more people in and how it results in just better work. I think a myth that exists is that collaboration and more voice at the table can sometimes lead to worse results. And I think we see this implicitly all the time. And I've even caught myself implicitly doing it. Been accidentally describing this myth when I've said things like, "Oh, I just want to have a small meeting here or whatever because I want to get this done." And I think there's a balance. You don't want to have thousands of people in a meeting. That's not going to be productive either. But if there's ways you can bring more people into the process, I do think that you get to better results usually and oftentimes simpler results, which is also interesting. We've seen, for example, One of the case studies that we found during the pandemic was Kimberly-Clark. Remember the toilet paper shortage?

Oh yeah. Yeah.

So they were trying to solve that and they were trying to come up with an order form that was going from 14 fields or something crazy to much less. And so they all got in Figma and started to figure out how to reduce the number of forms in their order form. And despite a lot of people collaborating on that together, they were able to come up with a much simpler experience. For their user placing orders than they had before. And it's like you hear stories like this and you go, wow, bringing more people in the process can actually help. It's not just always distract.

Yeah. The ivory tower idea is an interesting one. I mean, the reason it became an idea is that it works for some designers, a very, very small amount. And there's some companies that have been known and are quite successful for operating that way. Have you seen that change?

I guess I would challenge it a little bit. A lot of times that people act in that way, I think that they are not propagating the right knowledge amongst their teammates. A lot of times you end up with a bus factor problem. A lot of times you end up with one person who is kind of like seen as an individual leader on the team. But no one else can critique their work properly because of social norms that start to take place. And so I do wonder if that's actually a constructive pattern for organizations. And I think that just because it's a working style that has existed doesn't mean it's the most productive one. And also I wouldn't say that they're working alone. A lot of times they're building on the knowledge of others, they're building on patterns that have existed for a long time, and they're definitely bringing in other people to complete the project. And those people usually I usually find that designers and engineers working together, once they've had with some definition and help from product, but in that implementation phase even, there's so much that gets defined and figured out when you're implementing something. And so if anything else, I would claim that a designer that's working with an engineer, if we're looking at that atomic unit of collaboration, that's a time where you're getting a lot of different back and forth that's happening and the engineer's pushing back and saying, "Well, what about this edge case?" Well, that's such a case, and unless you're implementing yourself, you're just not going to think of all those things.

Yeah, absolutely.

But I don't know, what about you? What's your perception, kind of like what you've seen there?

I also think we're stronger in numbers. One of my personal design principles is that we should make complex things as simple and as accessible as possible to people. And you have to keep your audience in mind for that. And so the more audience or individuals that you talk to and the more variety that you understand, that's when you really start to get what's kind of the common baseline for users. That's how you have a broader audience. That's how you grow. That's how you make things as simple as possible. So I'm a huge believer in that kind of inclusivity, but sometimes it's, you know, different people have different processes. That's the way I think about it, but lots of different ways out there. So let's back up a little bit and we're going to start talking about Figma as a company. You've had a lot of big moments this year. You launched FigJam, you've had significant fundraising. How do you describe Figma as a product today? To pitch it to someone?

Well, I think of it as kind of like we're trying to serve the entire product design lifecycle. So we're going all the way from ideation with FigJam and whiteboarding and brainstorming to the design phase with Figma where you're really fleshing out mockups and you're trying to work with other stakeholders to all the way to prototyping and, you know, buy-in from other people and eventually production where you're trying to turn your work into code. And we're trying to serve that entire lifecycle.

Gotcha. And if you could take us back to the beginning, we can get into a little bit of an origin story. You started Figma in 2012 as a Thiel Fellow and you were exploring other ideas at the time.

Yep.

How did you choose this particular problem to solve and how did you get started?

Yeah, so I knew, my co-founder and I knew that we wanted to do creative tools and we knew we wanted to work with WebGL. And I think that sometimes as you are figuring out a new business, one thing that happens is people really focus on like problem, solution, what's the, What's the total market that's addressable and how much are we going to charge people? Why better than competition? And these are all really good questions to ask. But for us, instead we really focused on what's the technology that we're going to use? And for us, that was WebGL. The backup was going to be drones, but co-founder Evan was not into that. Drones? Yeah, I thought drones were really exciting. I still do. We also saw that there's a lot of regulation there, a lot of just privacy concerns. And so that's why we didn't go into that area.

Harder to design with a drone too.

I don't know how much design-oriented it'd be. Yeah. But hey, it's cool toys. But no, I think my co-founder had actually built drones in college and did a lot of programming with drones. And he's like, no, the hardware run debug loop, it sucks. I don't want to do that. And so we kind of focused more on WebGL and creative tools. And then from there it was like, okay, WebGL is sort of the why now here. It's the reason why something will exist that hasn't existed before. And then the question is like, what is it we're going to make? And what takes advantage of WebGL more than anything else. And we explored photo editing, computational photography, and even sort of a more broad Photoshop-like approach where you bundle a lot of things together before we realized that interface design was a big enough market. And that was always on the list, always something we wanted to do. And then we got to that.

Yeah. And for people who may not know the intricacies of WebGL, what would you say was so unique about that that made you want to use that for sure?

Oh yeah. So WebGL is a way to use the GPU in your computer in the browser. And by doing that, you're able to take apps that traditionally would've been desktop apps, siloed offline, and move them to the cloud. And so I think that basically any creative tool, but also any game honestly, could be made with WebGL and accessible with just a browser. And that way, if I send you a link to a Figma file, you can load it right away as long as you have a browser. And that means that it's platform agnostic. It doesn't matter if you're on a Chromebook, Windows machine, Mac. You can use Figma. And that became really important, I think, because as we saw Figma spread, there's sort of this heterogeneous mix of computing environments people are coming from in different organizations and also entire areas and countries that had never switched to things like Sketch because they didn't have Macs. And it turns out Macs are like, if you think about the designer stereotype you might have in your head, kind of going back to they're on their Mac, they're in the cafe, they have the headphones on, they probably have a really nice Moleskine, whatever that is in your head. It's not the reality for most of the world. I think a lot of our users are on PC or on Linux or more low-end hardware. Not everyone is on a Mac, so it's really important.

Yeah. Again, thinking about people beyond what's immediately around us comes back again. So how long did it take between when you started trying to build Figma and then when you actually first launched to any group of people?

It was a long time. So we started the company, we started talking with the company like December 2011, started, I got the Thiel Fellowship like April or May of 2012. I was still an intern at Flipboard at the time. I told them 6 months, I finished that 6 months. So we're talking about a bit more at that point. And then August 2012, we started full-time. It probably wasn't until June 2013 that we really were like, okay, let's go build what became Figma today and focus on interface design. And even then we thought of it as interface design plus other things. And it wasn't clear what those other things were. And there was a point where we had to really define that and say, we're going to focus on interface design and really had a nice whiteboard session with the team where we just crossed all these things off. It's like, what do we all think we're doing? Okay, let's cross them off one by one until we get to what we're actually doing. And we used a cool framework, eliminate, raise, reduce, create, from this book, Blue Ocean Strategy, to kind of figure out, okay, what are we doing that's different than competition? What are we not doing that competition is doing? What are we doing worse and what are we going to make this brand new? Yeah, from there, we didn't launch our closed beta until December of 2015 and our GA release was not until October 2016 and didn't start charging until summer of 2017. And so it was a very, very long road and took a long time to get to the point where we actually had Figma.

Wow. And it's funny, me as working in the industry, I remember those milestones.

You were there.

Yeah, absolutely.

Coinbase is a really early user and y'all took a bet and I really appreciate it.

We had some big fans. It was mutual. When actually, so when my team at Coinbase first got started on Figma, we weren't even remote. We just kind of thought it's a great tool. It seems collaborative, seems easy. The file systems, all that seemed so much better. Do you see it now as a product for distributed creative process, or would you say it's still not specifically designed for remote teams?

Yeah, I think we are trying to get better about— I think every team now is a distributed remote team, basically. Even if you're not all remote, literally, you're all distributed. And as that's increasingly the truth, you want to make sure that you're especially good for that environment. That's where I think the play, the— the focus on digital space comes in and how do you make it really great for that environment. But yeah, I would say that we should also work really well if you're all in an office together. And hopefully in the context of things like FigJam, the experience you have in FigJam whiteboarding is even better than the physical equivalent. And so I think a real metric of success could be, okay, we're all in a room with a whiteboard. What makes it so that we want to use FigJam instead of the whiteboards on the wall?

Yeah, that's a great kind of mission, North Star to be aiming for. You mentioned that there's a difference between a remote team and a distributed team. What is that difference for you?

Oh, a remote team is one where no one's in the office. Distributed team is one where you maybe have multiple people that are congregated in physical spaces together. That's my view, but what do you think? We're on this big podcast, so you're probably an expert.

It sounds good to me. And I think one of the things that we all realize is that even though we've all been adapting to this world, it's still really different. From team to team, from company to company, everybody has different definitions and different ideas of what they think works best and how they build products best.

Totally.

What are some of the key moments of, uh, in growth at Figma where you could see that you were really on track for like the bigger vision for you, for where you ultimately wanted Figma to go?

I think the first time that someone told me, please charge for Figma, was a big moment for me. Because we were free for a long time. And I always thought of it as like, okay, we just got to get to product market fit. We're not there yet. It's going to take a long time. And at some point out of this morass of just grinding, someone was like, hey, we really want to spread Figma at the big company I work at, major enterprise Fortune 100 company. And I can't do it right now because you all don't charge and everyone thinks you're going to go out of business.

That's funny.

And it was like this double reaction of like, oh my God, we made it. And oh gosh, like, how have we not charged yet? I thought that being free would help growth, not block it. And so I was just like, oh shoot.

Things we get surprised by. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's awesome. That's a fun milestone to really remember.

The other big one was just seeing people that are non-designers start to get into Figma without formal design training. So I've had like now a ton of founders come up to me and tell me how they've designed the first version of their product with Figma and really dived into design. I think that that's so important as you're building a business to just be design-driven and to have somebody that has a design point of view and propagating that from the top. And so if we can help inspire the next generation of companies to be more design-driven, to hire more designers, to put more people in design roles, I think that's like really, really important.

Absolutely. One of the points actually that I recalled as you were explaining that was that when we were again getting on board Figma at Coinbase and we had to convince not just designers to use it, we had to convince like PMs, engineers, everybody else to use it. And an aha moment that we had was when a PM realized, oh, he could edit text directly in Figma and then just be done with it. That was a major aha moment. I could see like the light in his eyes. It's like, oh, that's why we switched. It's pretty incredible. I don't know if I ever told you that.

That's awesome. Yeah, the, uh, copy editing on the canvas is big, but also just like, I think being able to leave comments, have conversation around the asset itself and have that be co-located is, is another one that's really big. And then just getting to the point where you can use a design system and a product manager can start doing some of their own mocks rather than they're just like, oh yes, I need a designer to help me draw things. It's like, no, product manager, you can do that on your own. Really, I promise you. Yeah.

Makes it as easy as possible.

Make it so the designer can focus on, you know, harder tasks.

Absolutely. Do you have any dream companies or teams that you wish would start using Figma? Like where you really think it could make a huge difference?

Would love government to start using Figma more.

That's what I was thinking too. Do you think they use it at all?

Uh, I don't know if I can comment on that. Okay.

Noted. Um, so we started talking a little bit about, uh, the non-designers, PMs, engineers, writers, researchers, so many people who all have to come together to make, uh, to make products look really good. What impact do you really think Figma has had for those people? That's, that's really important for you.

I think again, the more you can get people in the design process, the better design products can be. I think also just the roles around what design mean and who does design are blurring so much. And so I think that a front engineer versus designer, that is converging more than I think a lot of people realize. And both can be really additive to the other's process. We could debate for the next hour or two the difference between product and design, or even research and what that trifecta looks like and in that Venn diagram. But I think that all of them have to talk to customers, all of them need to think about strategy, all of them need to think about the future where the product can be and paint an inspiring vision. And because that all of them have use cases for Figma that are important, even if they have different orientations in a day-to-day job. What I've also been inspired to see is just the amount of executives and people that are stakeholders outside of product and engineering design are starting to use Figma to visually communicate or ideate in the case of FigJam, but also just to really be on the ground and thinking about what it'll take to win for their company through design. I think it's interesting too, because designers as an archetype are kind of, they're more in touch with emotions, they're more in touch with the soft side of business, but at the end of the day, design leads to winning. And I think that people don't realize that enough.

Did you say design needs to—

No, design leads to winning.

Oh, design leads to winning.

Exactly.

Great phrase. Yeah. Love that.

In my opinion. I mean, maybe somebody out there would challenge that, but I really think it's the case.

Well, speaking of winning, and you had touched briefly on earlier about competition and how, you know, Figma is starting from a small place. What's your competition like now? What do you think about? What do you worry about?

I think that we have obviously a major competitor in the sense of Adobe, and I think it's really important just to have a super healthy respect for your competition. Adobe in our case is like, they're the daddy of the creative tools industry. They literally back in late 1980s made Illustrator and then the 1990s acquired Photoshop. And this is all before I was born basically.

Right.

Obviously, some of these products have bloat, some of them have long histories, but they also exist after decades and decades and decades. And I think just the work Adobe's done has been really inspirational for a lot of people, including myself. And so I think you can learn from these companies that have been around for a long time. You can learn about how to create good software. You can learn about the traps of trying to build something for a long time. Learn about the traps of trying to put too many things into one place. And I think it's good for us to have strong, challenging competitors. That's the way that we'll become a better business in the long term.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is a good way to look at that. I remember also that's how I got started learning about design, building. It's using those tools. It's kind of like the originator. Do you think they learn from you and your team as well on how to make it more collaborative?

Judging by their recent releases, yes. But I think it's hard. I think the— The fact is that we're able to take assumptions about being cloud-first and that they can't really take. And so having to accommodate a lot of offline workflows and whatnot, it really constrains what you can do and makes it a lot harder to create a great product experience for people.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So we're lucky in that sense.

All right, we're going to go back to FigJam for a minute, which I love. So you've made Figma somehow even easier for new people to use. And there are so many creative ways that people have been playing around in FigJam. Like within our team, we use it to play games and team building events. We even have a Figma height chart. Since you don't know anyone's heights, you know, while you're remote, we made a chart of where everybody is.

So it can be a little more connected.

In case you're wondering, I'm on the bottom. So it's been super fun. And it seems like, and you touched a little bit on what it took to create that, but it felt like you seized the moment. Like somehow you knew this is the tool to make during this remote time and you spun it up really quickly. Like what, what actually happened there? Can you tell us a little more about that?

Sure. So we had long intended to go into sort of whiteboard diagramming space. That was something that we had seen people use Figma for along with lots of other use cases for a long time. And obviously it's not ideal for Figma proper to, to do that because as you try to expand it to more people and bring more people in, There's all this stuff that we've done for design that gets in the way. And so it's like, okay, how do you make it so that this is a tool? How do you create a tool around whiteboarding and diagramming and ideations use case that is just really excellent for anyone you want to bring in from the product team? And then the pandemic hit. And we already had this in our minds. And right away we realized that people were doing way more of this activity in Figma than they were before. And, uh, and they're having challenges doing it. And we realized, okay, we just have to move as fast as we can, get this to market because the pandemic's not going anywhere. It's going to be a long road ahead. And so we spun up a team and this is a few months of research first. We make sure we really understood the problem. And then it was probably fall of 2020 that we spun up the team. And it was maybe 6, 7 months before we launched, which I'm really proud of. And I think a big part of that was just the team knowing that this was such an important use case for our community. And that we really needed to get this out there for our user base, and that the pandemic was— it was just important for people to have a digital whiteboard during a pandemic, which is now an endemic. It's not ending. And so as we go into that world, it's like, it's 2021, everyone needs a digital whiteboard. How can we help serve our customers there? And the other thing we did was we weren't sure what to price it at first, and so we did a slightly higher price. And then as we watched people use it, we realized that entire teams were using it. And not only entire teams, entire companies. And as it expanded out more, we thought to ourselves, okay, the range that we're seeing in terms of who will use FigJam justifies it actually going to a more competitive price point. And so we've actually, now it's $3 if you're on Pro, $5 if you're on an org for FigJam, and it's free if you just want to start off on your own. And so again, we're trying to like really go for access with those price points.

Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned it was about 6 or 7 months before it came out, which is really short for that kind of product development. Can you tell us a bit about the team that you put together? How did they get this done?

Yeah, man, it's an amazing team. I think all of Figma's an amazing team, but they, I think with every release, you kind of have quality, deadline, feature set, this triangle. I definitely was like, okay, features and deadline, that's what we're optimizing for. And of course the Figma team is very quality oriented and so they also care about that too. But it was, I think, a deliberate move to say this is different than going and iterating on an existing product. We're building this new thing from scratch. There's real-time pressure. We have to get this out. What can we do to move faster? And having that entire team have this mindset around shipping quickly made a huge impact.

Yeah.

But also they're just incredible people.

Awesome.

So I feel very lucky to work with all my Figmates.

And I love that description. I love that word, Figmates. It's so cute. They're amazing. What was the actual like makeup of the team? Was it like one designer? Was it multiple? How did that get set up?

Yeah, it was, I mean, it was one designer, one product manager, a few engineers, expanded to multiple designers over time and more engineers over time. And then because the sort of engine behind Figma and FigJam is the same, we're able to pull in additional people as we needed from other teams. And so it's kind of like the teams became this semi-permeable membrane that people can kind of flow back and forth between. It also is a good forcing function to do things that we long wanted to do in Figma. So for example, bullet points is something that we've wanted to do forever in Figma and just never rose to the top of the priority list. Then for FigJam, it was a key thing that if you don't have bullet points, what are you doing? And so that became something that you prioritize on the Figma side that also works for FigJam. FigJam. And then what we've seen too is that some experiments we can do around digital space and bringing people together and having fun in FigJam, people like them so much they flow right back to Figma as well. And so it's nice to have this sandbox that we can play in, try things out, and then you can improve sort of the core Figma experience after that as well.

Yeah. And I love hearing about how it started with one designer and then there became more. Would love to dive in for a quick second on how— And research too.

I should not forget research. Research had a heavy role in FigJam. And continues to do to this day. We're lucky to have a great research team.

Yeah. I would love to hear just a bit more about how, like, you know, if it's a designer and a researcher and they get started, how do they collaborate with everybody else? Like, I feel like your team must be the best at using Figma. That's my guess.

How do you do it? There's a lot of teams that have like, I think the amazing thing about creating a tool, I'm sure you see this at Stripe, is just the amount of ways that people take these Lego pieces and put them together. It's true for crypto too. People, once they have generic tools or generic things that they can use, the ways that people string together and compose is just infinite and perplexing and awe-inspiring. And so, yeah, I think I don't have any, here's the one thing that we did in the collaboration side. I think most of them would ring relatively true for a lot of companies, but yeah, it's been exciting to see just the way that people collaborate. Across Figma and what that means.

Yeah, that's awesome to hear about. And talking a little bit more about your culture, it looks like you reopened your San Francisco office a few months ago.

We did.

Yeah, well, congrats on that. Got to ask a tough question here that I'm pretty curious about. So Figma is a tool that seems right now like so focused on remote design and distributed design. You're not a fully remote team. Why not? What's your thinking here?

Yeah, I think, I mean, I did a survey back in May or June of 2020 and just basically asked a lot of questions of our entire employee base at the time. And I expected some teams like engineering to be more remote-heavy in terms of preferences for the future, some teams like sales to be more in-person-heavy. And the reality was that everyone was a mix. There was the only pattern, there was no pattern. And some teams had more of a distribution than others, like engineering surprisingly wanted to be more in the office and while the Still a lot of people in engineering want to be remote too. And then sales want to be more remote, but still a lot of people want to be in the office. And sort of every permutation you can imagine for every other team as well. And we kind of reflected on it and we thought, okay, I kind of did all the game theory and thought through what will happen on this pandemic, where are all these companies going to end up at? And where we landed was let's have hubs. Anyone can come into those hubs if they choose to choose. If you do come into a hub and you decided to affiliate with a hub, You have to come in 2 days a week at minimum, and those 2 days are going to be set, and we'll have it be the same 2 days for everyone because otherwise communities don't form. You have this weird effect where people don't come in, and when they don't come in, it feels like it's kind of like an empty, dead space, and you want the space to feel alive and want things to be happening there. You want these communities to form in the space, especially for people that are, I think, right out of college, new grads. It's really important for them to have this physical community. And then if you don't want to come into Hub, that's also totally fine because we're in a pandemic. So a lot of people are not going to want to do that, especially if you're caretaking or you've got kids at home that don't have the vaccine yet. And so if you're in that situation, fine, don't come in. You have the option, but you don't get to arbitrarily choose, okay, well, this day I'm going to come in the office, this day I'm not going to. You kind of have to make a choice. And then your pay will equalize depending on what city you're in. And yeah, I think we try to be very clear about that at the start. Relatively at the start of the pandemic. I think we announced it internally around June or July. I announced it to the world in August 2020. And from there, we've just been very clear with everybody about where we're at. In the future, I mean, I think it's not off the table that we one day go remote. I don't think that'll be anytime soon. We just made this major investment in our office and we're adding offices in different hub locations. And I do think there's value to physical community too. But I also think that it's important just for that empathy with our customer base, understanding hybrid, as well as remote. I think we have a pretty good understanding of remote after being all at home for a while with the pandemic. And so I think hybrid's a really important one to get a handle on as well.

Do you think more teams will end up being hybrid rather than fully remote given another few years?

Oh, good question. What kind of teams? Software teams or?

Yeah, let's say software or whatever you might count as your main audience.

And what timeframe?

2 to 5 years. Ooh.

I think the 1 to 2 year timeframe, I think we'll see more teams be hybrid than full remote. And I think beyond 2 years, it's hard to say, but I would guess that we see divergence from hybrid into either full remote or full in-person for a lot of teams, because I think hybrid's hard. And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people go back to in-person if they're given the option to, but I think we'll probably see more remote teams than hybrid teams in the limit. I could be off though. I just think it's, for software in particular, there's such an amazing community out there globally that can do this core work. And if you're limiting yourselves to cities like San Francisco as your talent base, it's just really hard to hire, at least right now in boom times. Maybe in a year from now, if we're not in the current, you know, sort of bubbly world that we're in right now in the Bay Area, perhaps that changes. But right now I think that's the case.

Yeah, and I love how that leads into community, which is something that I can tell is really important to you and to Figma. It literally has a really prominent position inside of the Figma product itself, right? You can access community from the top left pull-down menu. Why that intentional emphasis on community? What is that for you?

It's actually funny because at the start of Figma, we thought that we'd be a community first and a SaaS tool second. Hmm. And so the first version of the Figma product was when we had the editor, but the main sort of file browser experience was just a feed. On the right-hand side, the center was a feed and the right-hand side were your drafts. And you could remix anything, I put that in air quotes. No one else can see the air quotes, I realize, because we're not a podcast. But you could quote unquote remix anything that was in the feed and you could open up the file in your editor and that'd become a draft in your right-hand side. And if you wanted, you could repost your remix to the feed later. And so we had this ambition to do this right away. And as we observe people in that early alpha period using Figma, we realized that just so many people are spending most of their creative energy at their work day to day. And for a small base of users, it didn't make sense to try to do the community-first approach, but we always had that ambition. So we just pivoted our approach to be more SaaS tool first. And then we thought, okay, community will be a fast follow. By fast follow, it ended up being 4 or 5 years before we got to that. Fast follow is not always as fast as you want them to be, but to me, it's just so important to have this open source mentality about design. If you think about the way that engineers have been open source for a long time now, they're doing this amazing job of just not recreating the wheel over and over and over again. And yet, how many times as designers have we recreated the most basic elements we use every day? And are we actually open to the inspiration that we can get? From others. I just think there's so much we can learn from the open source ecosystem in engineering when it comes to more creative work. And that's part of, big part of why we're leaning into community there. But also I hope that over time, the Figma community is a place where not only are you sharing resources, but you're also congregating as designers. And so if you're trying to learn about design, if you're trying to teach design, if you're trying to just hang out and get to know other designers, where do you go? You could go to Twitter and read some snarky tweets and design Twitter. Nothing against that, but like maybe there's like more constructive ways that we can create for people too. And if we create that third place for design, I'd be really excited about that. That's where I want to hang out.

Yeah. And I love that you're really bringing so much about the ethos of open source into design. And that's part of why you have so much of the Figma files, they're under a Creative Commons license.

In the community, yes.

Yeah, in the community, which is really interesting. Do you ever feel like you get caught into Some people can't share because of copyright. And how do you think about that trade-off?

Yeah, and there's some people that have definitely raised that to us, but actually I've been really surprised by how few people have that reaction. And also people from fields that are outside of interface design that are really eager for their work to be shared and used because that actually adds value to your work paradoxically. I think that one thing I've thought about and ruminated a lot recently on is this idea that basically for a meme, and that meme could be visual, that meme could be more of a thought, whatever it is, for it to gain value, the more that people remix it, the more people add onto it, the more valuable it is. I think it's definitely true of work that people create as well. And so I think the sort of scarcity mindset around this is designers have had their work stolen for a long time. Has had this experience with a client who doesn't pay or somebody that rips off work on the internet and these are really negative experiences. And so I understand why people are coming from that mindset. The abundance mindset is one where if you actually do share your work, get it out there and people reuse it, repackage it and it's attributable to you and people know that it's yours, that actually can have major effects in terms of creating your stature in the ecosystem and giving you social status. And if we can kind of help enforce that and to propagate those norms in Figma, which I'm not saying we're doing a perfect job of today, I think we could do much better, but if we can boost people that are coming into design even more with our platform, then I think it could be a really constructive thing for the ecosystem overall.

Yeah, absolutely. At the end of 2020, you wrote a blog post called Meet Us in the Browser, where you talked about Figma's vision of making design accessible to everybody. And that Figma itself is, and I love this quote, is more than a digital extension of our physical self. It's an invitation to leave ego at the door and create shared consciousness with others. It seems like openness, transparency, and access has always been a theme for your work with Figma and that refocusing on the community is the next extension of that. Is that the case or is that something you've realized along the way?

Yeah, definitely. I think implicit in what you're saying though is also velocity. And I think that's one area that we have to improve still. Is how do you actually make it so that it's not just I create something, it exists for a while, eventually it's remixed. How do you make it so that you're able to move really fast and have high velocity across these sharing experiences and collaborations? And that's something that I am thinking a lot about right now in terms of how do we enable that?

Interesting. You mean velocity in the design process or merely how people learn about or see new designs?

So again, going back to that term shared consciousness, If we're having a conversation, maybe it's a visual conversation in the case of design, then if I send you a letter and a month later you send me a letter back, that's very different shared consciousness than if we're having a conversation on a podcast. And so what does that mean for Figma? What does it mean for visual communication?

That's a nice analogy. Have you sent a letter recently? I haven't.

I should send letters.

Yeah, sending letters, sending cards.

It's great.

Great community.

I'll get your address after this and we can send, we can be pen pals.

Let's do it. That would be so much fun. Down. And since we, you know, it is the distributed podcast, we like to hear a little bit about how you work and have your own office setup. So can you tell us a bit about what your home office is like and what are some of the most important 2 or 3 things that you can't work without?

You know, I have a very minimalist answer, partially because I just moved and I have been, it's really interesting 'cause I used to have this like really epic bookshelf behind me that my wife made and it's like, it was funny 'cause the colors were kind of based off of a painting my friend Hannah made and it was sitting on top of the bookshelf and at some point I was like, wait, these are very similar to Figma colors. Amazing. But it was like this great bookshelf with all these great design books on it and other books I loved and then I moved to this new place and now I've got like a filing cabinet behind me. And I have the same desk, I have the same laptop. The only thing that's missing is a notebook because I haven't found my notebook yet in the move and I'll find it. I think I know where it is, but I think it's the only thing that's atypical that I would point out here, which is I find that if I'm writing things down during a conversation, I just recall them so much better later. And it's like I don't even have to look at it later, although it's nice to sometimes, but just the mere act of writing writing things down really, really helps me. Other than that, I don't have the one tip or trick. I'm, again, pretty minimalist in my setup.

And is that the same for your actual office office setup?

The office office setup, we actually have people are going between desks. It's more like a hoteling model. And so we don't have physical, here's your spot and you get to claim it forever yet. Maybe we'll introduce it in the future, but for now you actually rotate and just people have a monitor, a keyboard, a mouse if they want it, and they can plug in. It's really simple.

Gotcha. And I really like that you referenced the word serendipity so much because that's actually a distinct theme of the Distributed podcast for this year. What else are you doing now that you're back in the office part-time? You know, we're all adapting to our normal at-home lives. What else are you doing to add some more serendipity to your life?

Well, to my life versus to the Figma life?

Um, both. Okay.

I think in Figma, just the more that you can empower people that are wanting to start organizations inside of Figma or groups, the more that you can get people to create culture events on their own, it's always winning over top-down, here's what we're going to do. I think it's much better to have that be bottoms-up and that creates serendipity, whether it's in the office or it's remote. In my own life, literally just walking around a city or going to new places, travel to places that are in driving distance, even finding a cheap Airbnb, I'm lucky that's affordable for me, not everyone's the case, but I think even just a bus ride or a drive to a new place that you haven't been can add a lot of serendipity and creativity and inspiration to your life. And yeah, I find that when I get outside, which it's so easy to go a full day and just be working and there's always more to do, but just getting outside, listening to music, reading, learning, these are things that add a lot of serendipity to my life. As well as conversations with loved ones and friends. Like, you know, it's nothing that people are not used to, but it's just amazing, like, make the time for that, how much it matters.

Yeah.

Get excited. Like, if you don't get excited, like, what are you doing?

Love excitement. Yes. Can I ask what else are you doing to generally maintain your mental fitness, especially as this, as you point out, this pandemic is is just going to keep going. What do you do to— what else do you do to keep yourself fit, happy, healthy?

Sleep, spending time with my wife, Elena. She's actually— she's due right now, so we're excited. She's due December.

Wow. Congratulations.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's amazing.

Just like, I think, you know, having the humility of, of, oh my gosh, like she's literally growing a human. Like, what am I doing today?

Perspective.

Perspective. Yeah, that's a better word for it. But yeah, I mean, just having that perspective, I think, is really a great way to have that mental fitness, as you said to put it, because a lot of the things that are like these little challenges we run into every day, they kind of all fade away in that grand horizon.

Yeah. Do you have any daily rituals like meditation or anything else that kind of lends itself to that?

I should definitely meditate more. I think it always makes me happy, but I wouldn't say it's a daily ritual yet, although it'd be great if it was. I wouldn't. I am not a very good ritual person. I think so many people are great at this, and I have never found my groove of a ritual for like some amount of time. But I think the only ritual I would say that it's not necessarily the same time of day, but if I don't like learn something during the day, that's usually not like my top day. And so I'm always trying to figure out something that I can learn from people.

It's a great philosophy to have. All right. I'd like to move to a special section at the end that I like to call the lightning round of questions. Oh boy. So we're going to go— doesn't have to be that fast, but they're meant to be quick little kind of top-of-mind responses, starting with an easy one. So since you talked about being really excited about things and how that's awesome for you, what's something that you're really excited about right now that's totally outside what we've been discussing?

Yeah, well, we were talking about crypto earlier because you were formerly at Coinbase. And I think that one thing that I'm really excited about right now is just DAOs. Cool.

Awesome. Thank you. All right. Next question. What job would you be absolutely terrible at?

If I was in a very heavy operational role, I don't think you'd want me in that role. And that goes for running a very operational business as well. Like, it's mainly a DoorDash. I think I would not excel at.

Noted. What's a nice compliment that you've received recently?

You said a lot of nice things today. Thank you, Bonnie.

Oh, you're welcome. What's something that you wish more people did?

Think from first principles. I think it's so easy, especially in today's day and age, to take whatever you've read online, whatever you've seen in media, and just to repeat it without thinking about it first. And I think that the world would be a much better place if we all did our research and thought deeply about the things that we were taking on as opinions and didn't just give everyone right access to our brain.

You mentioned that you really, really like learning and that in fact, if you didn't learn something, it's probably not your top day. What's some thought nugget you learned recently that you really like?

It's not really like a thing I learned, but one thing I've been reflecting on is how fear blocks compassion.

How fear blocks compassion.

Yeah.

Hmm.

I think that for me at least, maybe it's different for other people, but a lot of times when I find myself lacking compassion, I usually trace it back to I am being fearful of something. And if I can like figure out why I'm being fearful, that I can unblock that compassion. And so, yeah, it's been applicable for a lot of different parts of my life recently.

Oh, it's such a great philosophy. It's very closely linked with meditation, which is interesting that you have that view.

What's the meditation viewpoint there?

Just very similar to that. There's a lot about compassion, about like, you know, like Buddhist meditation, that the default is the world is suffering and it's compassion, understanding that gets people through that and helps you live and be empathetic to all of the fellow people that inhabit this world with you. What do you think enabled you to get to that kind of realization?

Just a lot of thought about the pandemic and sort of the things that I was not being compassionate about and the people I was not being compassionate towards and ask myself why.

Hmm. Really nice reflection. All right. This is a question I've been really enjoying asking people recently. And it's kind of a fun one. I was first asked by my 19-year-old cousin, which is, what are some of your hot takes?

Hot takes? Well, give me a subject or a point of view and I'll try to give you a hot take on it.

Absolutely. A hot take on food.

Ooh. Well, I have really bad acid reflux, so I try not to drink caffeine and also try to stay away from nightshades and tomato. But the biggest hot take I have on food is that I hate chocolate.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, I just have always hated chocolate. It's almost like this thing where I feel like I'm in The Truman Show and like everyone else is going to at some point be like, "Haha, got you," when I take a bite of chocolate and pretend it's good because I've just been pushed this way my entire life. But really, it's not good. It sucks. I don't know what you all are thinking.

That's amazing. What about chocolate with nuts?

It's gross.

Still gross.

Everything chocolate is gross. Wow. Disgusting.

That's a great hot take. I mean, I'll confess one. I don't like pizza. Okay. That freaks people out.

Fair. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's bread and cheese. It's like not exactly the most healthy food.

It's kind of goopy. It's a little hard to deal with. All right. I want to get a couple more hot takes. I think this is a fun question. What is a hot take on San Francisco?

Ooh. I'll give two, three. One is it's beautiful.. And it's a majestic place that has endured as a creative hub for many decades, and that's not going anywhere. The second is that it is no longer, along with the Bay Area, going to be the top hub in tech. And the third as a resident of San Francisco is that I will put a political opinion out there, which is that I really believe that we have to actually, you know, care about crime. And if we see stores shutting down, because they're getting so many people shoplifting. At least we should have a conversation about it. I'm seeing some people say that's just not happening and denying it's happening. That really frustrates me.

Mm, understood. Hot take on space travel.

Love it. Go to the stars. I think that there's some perspective from people that says we have so many problems on Earth, why are we going and exploring new frontiers? Why not go and solve those problems on Earth? For example, a lot of people criticize Jeff Bezos for his work on Blue Origin. That was also after he donated or committed a ton of money to climate change. And so I think that it's not an or, it's an and. And I have nothing but respect for people that are pushing the frontiers of technology, science, and trying to figure out ways to make sure that, you know, in a worst-case scenario, if we blow ourselves up, that some part of our human consciousness remains. Hmm. Also, if there were aliens, I think that we'd all be very focused on the state of space travel. I'm not saying there are, I'm saying that the government has been very quiet about the subject and they have been willing to admit that there's a lot of UFOs out there that we have no idea what they are. So either that means that we are behind another nation in terms of military or that there's phenomenon we can't explain. In either case, I think you want to invest a lot in space travel and aeronautics right now.

I'm into that. I'm a huge, huge fan of space. Seems really cool. All right. Well, thanks for diving into the Hot Take segment. Sure.

That was fun.

Yeah. Learned a lot. What's keeping you up at night?

I mean, for Figma, we're growing so fast and so it's just like how to maintain culture and when we're distributed, when we're growing really quickly, that's super important. So trying to make sure that we do a good job of that.

Absolutely. What's one piece of advice that you have for companies who want to be excellent at design?

Ooh, I think it comes from the top. And so if your leadership doesn't care about design, make a case for that. Make sure that they start caring. And if you're leadership at a company, start caring about design, start talking to your designers more, start talking to your product people more, anyone who's working in the digital product experience, because that I expect will be the reason you win or lose the business.

Hmm. Yeah, I would love for you to expand on that. Like if you pretend like you're talking to maybe some kind of skeptical leader out there, what's your pitch right now for why they should care about design?

Well, the entire world is going from physical to digital, like we talked about. If you ignore that transition and you say that the ways of the past are still going to serve you and you don't have to continue to innovate and to keep pushing on the design of your experience, I just think that some competitor is going to come find you and they're going to beat you. And so if you want to maintain your market position, even as an incumbent or a laggard, and certainly if you want to gain market position against others, design can be a differentiator. And you either have to be leaning into that to go on the offensive or leaning into that in order to be on the defensive. But either way, it's an arms race and if you don't participate in it, you're just going to lose.

All right, Dylan, I've got one more hot take for you.

All right, let's do it.

What's your hot take on becoming a dad?

I'm so excited. It's going to be awesome. I can't wait to meet this kid.

That's so great. Dylan, thank you so much. This is such an exciting time for you between the growth and momentum of Figma and the opportunities that you and your team have created. Created for all of us designers in the tech community. It's been real swell to talk to you about all of that today.

Thank you, and thank you for supporting us and for having me today.

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and here's to more success for you and a great year ahead for Figma and for everyone listening out there as well. Stay healthy and stay positive. Thanks all.

Thank you.