The Product Conversation with Prabhagaran | The Real Talk Show #16

Welcome to the brand new episode of the Tech Ketchup Show, A Nerd for Tech Originals. In today's episode I have with me Prabha Garan who is a product manager at PayPal. In today's episode, Prabha Garan talks about products from customers perspective and how a product manager develops a product that satisfies customers needs. This is entirely a product based conversation and you are definitely going to enjoy it. But watch this episode till the end. This is your host Kushak Srivastava and see you on the other side. Welcome to the podcast the Tech Ketchup Show A Nerd for Tech Originals. And I hope so you enjoy today's conversation with us.

Yes. Yeah, looking forward for that Kusharga.

Okay, so like I would like to begin this entire conversation by asking a very direct question. How did product management happen to you? Like why product management? I know it's, it's kind of a long journey and there will be numerous steps, but could you please break down that entire story into parts and could you just summarize it?

To be very frank with you, product management was, was really an accident like people say. Okay, so I'll actually explain a bit more on that. So if you see like where I started, I started an artist, so I was actually not good at study. So I just went and did my visual communication. So I somehow. Okay, the subject of clearing My exam happened 10 years after my, my graduation. So 2007 I finished my exam college. But then I got graduated 2011 or I got my degree in my hands 2011 just to join PayPal. Okay so, so I was an artist. From there I became, I joined. The first company I joined was an event management company. So I was working all, every, literally I was doing every work in that company because it was a very small company. And then I joined as a, I joined as a game designer and then I worked there for three years and then I thought, you know, game design is not my thing. And then I wanted to do more of. More of UX design and that's when I joined Zoho as a marketing designer. I was a marketing designer for a year and a half and then I just did my. Sorry. I joined as a ux designer in PayPal and from there I was doing a lot of UX design and I got involved in UX research. So when I was actually doing all this, one of my product directors saw me and then like wanted me in her team as a product manager, she said, because I was working with her for a year and Then she said, there's an opening for a product manager. Why don't you just join our team and then advocate UX in our team and if you're interested in product management, you can actually take up that. And that's what I did. First six months I was not sure of whether I taken the right decision. But then now it's been two years and I think, you know, that's the best decision I've taken. So yeah, I never intended to become a product manager, but then when I just, whenever I got the opportunity grabbed and then the learning was really, really hard for me because as, as I've told you, I had no background in technology. So to understand like ux, you can understand a bit of technology because you're doing UX research and you working really close with the team. But then product management is a different ballgame. But then, yeah, my team been really supportive and yeah, now I technically transitioned to a full fledged product manager. Great, great.

So like I was going through your profile while researching for this podcast and since you also told me in this answer, so what I believe you have worked on multiple roles and the fact is that, the fact that remains entangled to it is that most of your roles have been focused on enhancing user experiences and creating processes for the users a bit easier, a bit better. So like, what do you feel, what quality or what value do you personally have that has helped you in getting that understanding of the user X, of that user problem and user behavior so beautifully and so naturally.

So the first thing, when I just joined a product team or when I took up a product, what I realized is the value that I can add in product management or for that product. Okay, so for example, I had a lot of doubts as I told you when I joined and I was talking to a lot of friends of mine and who are product managers, my peers. Okay. There are 18 product managers just in my team. So my director was really confident that I'll be able to do that. So when I was talking to them, they said everybody, everybody had a different background and they had entered the product management. Nobody there, nobody in my team just graduated from an MBA and then joined product management. Everybody had their own specialties and then joined. Like for example, a couple of people were data people, a couple of people, but actually developers. So, so when I bought in the, when, when I got into the product management, I had the hat of the user experience guy where I had spoken to the user so much, I, I always was advocating for the users.

Exactly.

That, that, that translated because I Had been doing user research for so long and, and I've been designing for so long so like it's always the users first for me. So when I joined this team that was very evident because I started spending so much time talking to the users and understanding their problem because now we are in a position. So earlier when people ask me why you became a product manager, I just had this line somewhere, saw this line somewhere which said if you're not able to take a decision, get to the position where you can take the decision. So when I was UX designer, people will actually like not like my decision is second decision. Like even though I actually talk to the users and talk to the business, talk to the product owners and then start to design something like the final call is with product manager. Right. So when I became the product manager I was able to, I was able to put users in front of everyone. Sometimes that backfired. But then yeah, the products that I build are more user friendly and people really can see that I'm making a change in the organization putting UX front of everything else. And that's really important as a product owner I guess after like because I also advocate UX for the complaints team in PayPal. So the complete team understands the importance of UX and, and they're also doing a lot of UX research or talking to the users and then when they get out they actually get to me and follow the process and stuff. But then the UX part, I think every organization must have a UX guy in their product team so that the product build is validated by somebody. And like because earlier if you see like Agile is the most, the best thing that happened to product owners ever or to product life cycle ever. Okay. And that had me that had actually seen so much of change in the way products are built now. Right. So when that is actually added with the UX guy in the product management team, I think it elevates it to another level. Exactly, exactly.

You just mentioned that sometimes behaving or doing that where you are placing the user at firsthand backed fired. So could you explain that how like in terms of what you are saying that backfired in terms of product failure or like, like some kind of a team mismanagement or what, what it actually do mean.

Okay, so for example every, so every organization has a product strategy or a product guideline document or every platform platform has a UX guideline document or a product guideline document, right? So, so when I was designing a couple of products initially I, I had designed the product in such a way that that would mimic people's behavior as of now. So, so what, like what, what happened there is people thought I was actually cloning the existing flow that they have and not redesigning or making them transition to a new platform as such. Okay. So it's very hard to explain because for example, okay, it's a product where you compare two documents, okay, but the product that we have or the platform that we have is not a platform that has the comparison mechanism or comparison flow, whereas it will be a waterfall flow where you, where you can actually scroll one below the other. And so when I was designing this particular platform, I did so much of user research and found out that however you put, you know, this product in a waterfall way or a top down method, people were finding it hard. And when you have a comparison flow they were finding it really easy. And, and we were actually bringing down the AHT for around 34% I guess. Okay. So I actually, as I told you, it did not backfire from the users or from the HT point of view. But then everybody in the organization thought that I was actually redesigning something or I was actually redesigning something which takes more time to develop. Okay. So then I made the point, you know, then I brought in the stats and said 34% of Ah, reduction and stuff like that. And then they actually believed that this actually will make a difference for all of the, we call them investigators or the user. So we went ahead with that and then the output or now the way the people are using it is really interesting and it's shown and now like that is one of the products I gained my respect in. So now if I do something as product launch, they actually think, you know, okay, he might have something based on the UX and that's why he's doing that. So let's give him, let's give him his space and see where the product is going. So that kind. Great.

So like what I feel for people who are more or less involved in this product and are dealing with product development management, one of the key skills, what I feel believe is that they should have farsightedness and the ability to figure out the opportunities. So how, how you personally have developed that ability to, to look out for, for opportunities and future prospects and then if a person wants to build that skill, how can one actually develop that skill of farsightedness and citing for opportunities?

Yeah, I would say like half of the answer for your question is in the question itself. When you, when you find opportunity, you, you have to Be curious. So I would say the answer for your complete question is just curiosity. So when you have curiosity about, learn, like to learn new stuff that's happening in the world, in the, in other products, in other disciplines, like, you know, you can, like you can find an opportunity to put that in, in your product. So for example, when, when an opportunity like when I saw something happening in another product, you know, and not happening in my product, you know, it's, it's next to, it's so obvious that I would want that in my product. And I know that users will actually be benefited by the product. For example, when I came in, they were not using prototypes as intended in our organization. So when I was starting as a UX designer and I was designing wireframes and giving it to the product development team and the importance of wireframe I did not understand before I joined the product team. So when business, the flow is kind of different in PayPal. So for the product that we're working, the business will give the requirement and then we will actually build that with our engineering team and then we will speak to the users and then finally deliver it to the users, right? So when that happens, this flow, we have something called cr, which is change request. So how product works is product actually gives a proposal or like we actually give a PhD. Like it's very basic. So we give the PhD to people, to the development team and development team works out of the PhD. Okay, so the language is where the communication happens. The communication was not visual in terms of products. So it was, it was very documenting. So our screenshots, so the flow between a screen and another screen was not happening. Like people were not understanding how this happened. So a lot of things were as assumptions. But then when I saw the opportunity to actually bring in wireframes here and then circulate it inside the organization and get the buy in by the business, by the users, by the product development team. And then when we went for the development, the CIIARS drastically reduced. For example, before I joined the C hours, somewhere around for every product there were around 70 to 80 crs and now there is like 15. That is because we find opportunities after we do the wireframe and then when we talk to the business, they see what's happening in the prototype and they say, oh, okay, I missed this particular section right here. So can we have this functionality as well? And then because, and this is the internal part and how a prototype has changed or made life easier. The other functionality is because I was doing ux like I think there is very Few UX designers for a bigger team. So when I was in the like in the UX team, I was working for seven different products and then when it came into product management they gave me one product. So now I have the understanding of all these seven products that affects this product. So I had the experience of taking all the opportunities that I seen other products actually bring in here as a functionality so that these users can actually get benefited by that. So now it's a win win everywhere because one is everybody's happy because they can see the complete product before development. Second thing is I can actually bring in functionality from other products because I've worked in other products. So that's where the concept of finding an opportunity and then being curious about how that opportunity would work in my product and then making my product as better as every other product that is there.

So like it goes as a fact and it is a general saying that as a product manager you should love the problem statement that you are solving and build, build a prod and should be passionate about building your product. So now I have a two part questions to this above statement. First part being is it actually possible to understand the problem of a user, the pain points of a user, the way user feels like by just interacting with the user or just reading the data, whatever we one gets, is it actually possible to understand the pain point to a level that the user is experiencing? And second part is if that's possible, what are some of the approaches, best approaches that could, that could, that should be looked by everyone to understand that problem statement as closely as possible.

Okay, so this is really, really interesting question. Okay, so because when I started as a product owner, the one thing that I can never do is is that read the document. Okay, Because I'm dyslexic from. Excuse me. Yeah, so because I'm dyslexic and the two things that I can never do is read and write. Okay, so, so when I, the biggest challenge I faced when I moved into product management was to read a lot of read a bunch of pages and understand the problem. As you said, the problem statement comes as a brd, the business requirement document in my case. So first thing I have to read that complete document which is like some 670 pages and then understand every problem problem by problem. And the very important thing is any document that is 70 pages does not start with the empty document. It starts with the template, there'll be another document and they'll actually prepare the document based on this document. So the language that is put in is really hard to understand because they'll actually read a line there and then try to sync their problems they have and then they'll modify that particular line. Okay, so it's very important that you completely understand the brd. So for that we actually set up a lot of calls and then even before we actually do anything else, first thing is we actually read the document, then we set up calls with the business folks and then we try to understand that problem. And then if there is an existing product, we'll actually see the product and see what the problem is. Or if there's a new problem, we'll actually talk to people who put down the BRD or will actually do a market research of what are the products that are available and how they are solving that particular problem. So first thing is understanding the problem. Second thing is doing a market research of what problem, what are products exist that solves the same problem. The third thing is you go to the users and this is where my user research comes in and plays a very handy role. Like the very important thing is user will not directly say something that they want. So, so for that, like the term in UX research for that is the whatever the user see is not whatever the user feels. So, so what I do is I do a lot of iterative calls. So for example, initially I'll talk to like, like 10 users and then get their feedback. And then once you start talking to a lot of people, there's something, a kind of pattern forms on the flow of their speech or on the flow of the process that they use or what they've actually been doing for all this long. So when that happens, you kind of try to find a pattern and from that pattern you have to like, you have to jot down your understanding as a request or a solution for the problem statement that you have, then take the solution to the business people and then validate it again. So like this process is an interesting flow of chain of events where first you talk to the business, understand the problem, talk to the users, understand their pain points, then design, design a solution to that, then go to the business again, then validate whether this will work and then come back, talk to the engineering team whether engineering team will be able to do that in the timeline that the business is given and like, or whether is that a better way to actually like, because the engineering like one thing I started doing is I started involving everybody in the first phase itself. Even before we go into development. I wanted to get everybody's buy in so that when we go into the Production, it is the best product ever built. So what happens is when all the teams actually are giving everything that they have, for example, one thing is we started involving the engineering team because they know the future of the technology. Like as I said, I was not very good at technology because I don't come from a technology background. So I actually validated the engineering leaders and then say, and then the architect leaders, product architecture leaders, and then like try to get the best solution or the best technology for that particular problem or product we're building and then pitch that to the business that this is what we can do and then this is the timeline it would take. And like this is why we want this to be built in this platform or this technology because this is the future and this will be scalable and stuff like that. So that happens. And any problem, like finding solution to any problem, I would say is iterative process. There's no one, no one solution for any problem. So once you have a solution, you try to play the devil's advocate in that particular problem statement or the solution and then make that as better as possible.

So like, could you, could you just discuss some of your, some of your favorite products or like those products that you were quite passionate while building and that entire journey and was like some kind of a child to you and you took care of it like to that level of.

Okay, now I have to go back to one of my early experiences in Zoho. So in again, again I like to be in a position where I'm not very comfortable always. So I was working at the ux, I was working as a marketing designer back then. And then I always would actually talk to my product director and said, I want to get into UX design and I'm really passionate about UX design. Then he gave me one small, one small product redesign and then that went really well. And then that's when I actually joined the UX team. And when I joined the UX team we actually did. I wouldn't say it's a redesign. Such a product did not exist in our org like back then. So it was called a custom dashboard. Okay. So normally the dashboard that like I was working for this product called site24cross7, which is server monitoring, website monitoring, AWS monitoring tool. So there are multiple, multiple disciplines that the product had and in everything. Give me a minute, give me. Yeah. So what happened is such product did not exist in our org. So the first challenge was to actually understand what the problem of the users. And that's when I initially started talking to the users. So I'm talking like four years ago and there was a lot in stake. The first thing is I've not done UX research. I just got into UX design like six, seven months back in that team and then like the director had actually believed in me and given me the biggest challenge that I ever faced. So normally the dashboards in any product is like one discipline and one product. So for server monitoring there'll be one dashboard. For AWS monitoring, there'll be one dashboard. For website monitoring there'll be one dashboard or what is that, the other one? There's something called ram, real user monitoring. So for everything there'll be its own dashboard because every product is a different offering for a user. But then we were getting into a place where we were designing a dashboard that is for a holistic bigger company. So if you know zoho, Zoho means small users and home users, right? But then like the product I was working was for an organization as well. So if you are a bigger organization, you can actually monitor everything in one screen. So we did not have a tool for that or a dashboard for that when that product came in. That, that, that I would say is one of the biggest challenges because I was understanding technology for the first time, I was understanding the users for the first time, I was understanding the competition for the first time. So there's only two people in our team, a project manager and a UX designer. And then every product has their own, had their own product manager. So we started talking to them, understanding the requirement, that's the first time we actually started talking to the user. There's a lot of people in the blog, so every company's blog section is really important section. So I went to every blog section, saw who, who are all the users who actually, who actually requested for this particular feature and then mail them, ask them if they're willing to actually willing to be a part of the user research that we're doing. And then we started talking to them. So when we started talking to them, we found out that the real user needs of them. So this is a flow that I created earlier where first I actually understood the requirement or understood the organization capability, then went to the users, spoke to them, got their understanding, came back to the, came back to the drawing board and then designed a product, then took it to the stakeholders, that is the product director and the product manager. And then when they gave me a go ahead, I took that to the users again and then validated with them, made some changes, came back to the Drawing board, made some changes, finally did a prototype, and then that was a product. So first thing is try to use all the resources that you have. And a lot of people underestimate blogs and comments in blogs and support mails. So for example, one of my, one of my job, one part of my job description in the marketing team when I was working there was to reply for 5 support mails every day. So when you do that, you obviously have to talk to a lot of product folks or the engineering folks to understand that particular problem and then reply for it. So it actually look like a really big number, five or really small number. But then the amount of knowledge that you will gather in a month by replying to just five meals a day is humongous. So that is where I would say, yeah, I actually lost the question. Yeah, so that is one of the interesting projects that I worked in and like all the experience of what I am doing now as product manager came in back then in that particular project because I was given resources. So technically the difference between a UX designer and a product manager is a product manager will have all the resources that he wants. UX designer has to have asked the product manager the resources. Right. So now the part like you get the power to do everything that you want to do. Yeah. And so you have to try to experiment in everything. And that's where that particular victory, or that's why I call that particular product, is really close to me. You can just google site 24x7 customer dashboard and it will come off. Even in the UX side. We actually did something really interesting. It was a resizable dashboard. So every widget in that particular dashboard can be resized to any size that you need. And so the engineering team's involvement was phenomenal. And like for example, if you're making a dashboard, the chart is really important or the way you present data is important.

We were on the question that about your products, we were discussing about your products where you told us about that Zoho product that the product that you build at Zoho.

So yeah, I think you were asking about the product that is really close to me. It was a. Yeah, I think I explained the process. But then that's, that's, that's pretty close to me because that was a time when I was given a bigger opportunity. And then I was actually given so much of freedom to do whatever want to do. And the product director simply said, I want the best product out of you. Do whatever you want to use whatever. So you can use and that freedom actually gave me so much of responsibility, I took it on me. So from the equipment gathering phase to the development phase, I was actually very, very closely related to that project. So even though I was actually like as a UX designer, you start a product, you finish a project, then you move on to another product. But then this particular product, even though the next project started or I was working on other things, I was very closely working with this product till the release of it and then I was working very closely to the iterations of it. So I think the more freedom that people give you, that product becomes very close to your hard product. And this one custom dashboard side novel 7 was the I think best project I worked in in a digital sense. Okay. And then if you see, I actually studied art, so I did sculpture and painting. So there's a sculpture that is four and a half feet and it's a metal sculpture. So that project I did when I was doing my post graduation, which was I think in 2000, it was long, long ago, I think some 10, 15 years ago somewhere. So I did a 4 and a feet middle sculpture. And that sculpture was at that point of time again, my father believed in me, he sponsored this project. The college believed in me. The college did not believe. I just absconded it for two months till I went to the college with this culture, people were actually pissed on me. People in the sense my, my dean and my principal were pissed on me. But then when they saw that, they understood why I actually did that. You can just go to propfactory.com and. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So that metal sculpture which was four and a half feet and then even doing sculpture when I was a student, which was, which was in that scale again, responsibility and freedom, actually made that project like my favorite project. So these are the two projects that I would always have. As you said, the child, the first child is that sculpture. The second child would be the side no crusher and custom dashboard. Exactly. Great.

So like you have worked in a gaming industry and you yourself has been a game designer. And that's fascinating in itself. And now as we see as the times are evolving, there is one, this industry, gaming industry that has evolved at an all time high rate and over the past few years. So what do you feel about this industry being at some point of time being a part of it? What do you think about the change that's happening in that gaming industry?

Okay, so, so when I worked in the game design team, I was actually designing games. So and that is where I came across the concept of doing research or understanding users because I was actually designing for slot machines. Okay. So majorly the games that I designed were actually produced or used in Las Vegas, Macau, all the bigger casino market. So the nearest, the nearest casino that used Bali Bali slot machines was technically, I think in Australia. So there was no access to those start missions. And then for example, inside the floor, we imported a bunch of start missions and we'll be testing with that and we know how it feels like. But then that is where my first level of research came in. So you have to understand and know the perspective of people who are in that particular geography and then how do they feel when they play the game and then how to actually pull them and then make, make them sit in your machine and then give them money. So, so the first thing is understanding games was very important. And then when I was designing games, that is when the evolution of mobile game started. So I think I was working there till 2013 or something. Okay. So like the, before I joined that company I was using a smaller phone and because I was actually getting into gaming, gaming and I wanted to feel what, what is mobile gaming? I just purchased the first version of the Samsung Note, which is the biggest phone ever produced at that point of time. So I always believed at that, that point of time that the mobile gaming would, would take off in, in a scale. But I never expected it would be, you know, in, in the, in the position that it is now. So because for example, like when you are in an industry, you restrict yourself from thinking out of the industry. So, so when I was doing slot machines, I was thinking how to bring slots into mobile. Yeah, I was not thinking how to bring everything in mobile. So even like now the lockdown has proved that the most played game in the lockdown is the Ludo and the Carambo. I guess.

Exactly.

And like that is for the normal audience and then, then the pub, I think I don't play much games, so pubg and stuff like that. So, so now that is where like as a product owner I learned or when I think back, I think I need to think about the future of looking what is a possibility today and then how that possibility will be in five years.

Yeah.

So mobile gaming, that's. That, that's technically what mobile gaming taught me. I would say if that answer your question. Yes.

So like there has been now like also there has been this thing that, what do you feel? Like how, how the mindset of the people who play the games have changed and also how the mind mindset of people who actually create those games have changed. Like was it, was it something like since the mindset of people started changing due to the influence of social media and new forms of media due to that change of mindset of the people, it was the gaming industry that has to take that leap and evolve or was it the other way that the gaming industry started creating games that were disruptive of those times and that actually led to the evolution of the mindset of people to some extent. So how do you feel about this? Or like what, what's your opinion on this?

So this debate is in all the industries, for example, people think the people in design, like when I was in design, I thought technology was restricting the designers. And then people in technology will think the designers are restricted by technology. But the problem is like we have to look at it in a, in a very different angle. So for example, with the racing background, like I've heard this when, when a racer joins the MotoGP carrier, they drive a 125cc engine. Okay. And then they, then when they, when they do good at that or win a championship, they do a 250cc and then they move to MotoGP. Okay, so what like the reaction speed or the speed the bike travels is phenomenal. Okay, so for example, you do through 350 plus kilometers in MotoGP. Okay, so but, but 120 PC might do somewhere around 200 kilometers per hour. It'll max out to be probably okay. But, but that's the problem. So when you start, when you actually see what is the possibility in the next realm you the, for example, when, when you've ridden the MotoGP cars bikes, the 125cc seems like very slow or you have so much time to decide on what is happening in front of you. So the same thing goes with technology, whether it's gaming or anything. So for example, if you see till, till Tesla came in, the. Electric motor industry was stalling. So everybody were having phenomenal ideas, but it was moving nowhere, it was going nowhere. But then once they came in, broke that chain and then proved everybody wrong and, and bought Tesla and then like manufactured four different variations of it. Now everybody are catching up for that because there is already the bar raised that high. So the same thing. So there must be someone to actually break that, break that barrier and then show the bar or raise the bar that much so that everybody would follow. The same thing goes. So, so you can be one of them or I can be one of them. So, so you have to Understand where it is coming from and where it can be taken to. And I would say the best person to take that is somebody who's not related in that industry at all because they think out of the box and they don't. They don't have the restrictions in their brain that would stop there. So if you understand everything or every function of engine, you'll never be able to redesign that engine because every single part of that engine will be running through your head when you're trying to reimagine the engine. But then if you, if you're, if you give the, if you give the problem to design an engine, that, that's gonna, to somebody who's never seen the workings of engine, just the basics of engine, they'll actually think in a very different way that might break or that might give a different solution altogether that's breaking everything that you've seen. So. So one thing is the hardware has gotten really good all these years and that is why. So. So for example, when the hardware is faster, you can't have a slower game in your phone and that's why the game improved. And the same thing happened the vice versa, when the game was getting better, the mobile hardware manufacturer start. We have to actually do better on the hardware side, on the performance side. So it's actually a race between both of who's gonna achieve that first, and then that race in any platform or any product or any problem will actually get better products on the hardware side as well as the software side. Exactly.

So it was great talking to you. Just the last one. Since it is a tradition at a tech ketchup show, could you just suggest some of those resources? Be it any podcast that you listen to, any blogs that you read, or any books that has helped you to become a better professional as well as a better person in as. Yeah, please. So as a better professional as well as a better person, if you could suggest something.

Huge book nerd. If you see, I have shitloads of book everywhere. All these are really bad. Yeah, I have a lot of books. And so one book that changed me is this book. So it's the Inspire by Marty Kagan. So. And then, yeah, he runs a group called Silicon Valley Product Group. So I actually attended one of the workshops that they did in PayPal. Gave me the confidence to actually venture into product management because this book gives so much of importance to UX designers. And then it gave me a confidence that I play some part in the product management. So I don't have to be. I don't have to feel privileged to be here. So it's very important that you believe in yourself before you believe in the product or believe in somebody who believes in you. So for example, my director had the belief that I would be able to be a good product manager, but then I had to get that first. And for me, I would say this is the first book that actually made me confident on. On the process or anything. So. And I think there is a bunch of other books in typography that is DBM minutes. I'll try to find it. I'm a huge fan of this guy called Ashton Cleon. Okay. So. And one of the first books is Steal like an Artist and yeah, show your work. So if you're designers, these two books are really, really, really impressive. So and if you're, if you, if you're in any creative work, I think this one, Keep Going is another phenomenal read. So all these books are. All his books are really, really simple. It is not. It's like a coffee table book. But then this guy is. I have a couple more of his books as well, but I don't see enough. So there is this ton, loads of content here. I don't know where to see. So there's. I would actually probably send you the links of all the. My suggestions, but I would say my first one is this. I think. Yeah, hooked. Yeah, there is, there is ton loads of things but. But something that really made me confident is this guy here asking Kleon and this one. Great, sir.

It was great talking to you, sir, and I hope you enjoyed the conversation and thanks for coming to the Tech Ketchup show and to all, thank you for inviting me.

It was really, really interesting talking to you. You made the last one hour go like this. Yeah, anytime. I would love to do this again.

It would be our pleasure, sir. And to all our listeners listening to any platform, please do subscribe, like share and follow the Tech Ketchup show for more such amazing conversations. And this is your host, Vishakh Shah Sahib signing off.

Bye.