Cold Calling for SDRs: What Works, What Doesn’t | Joseph Vieira

When you're leading a team, they're studying you and they're only going to do a certain percentage of what you do. So when you're being watched, give it 100% so your team knows what 100% looks like. Over the last month, we've really, really found the right messaging that I have around a 30% hit rate. If I can have a conversation, there's a 30 to 40% chance you're going to be taking a demo.

What's your SDR pet peeve? Thus checking an email or the hope you're well opener. Our guest today is Joe, true cold outreach veteran. With over 12 years of experience. From door to door selling in college to becoming Director of Business Development, Excite Director of Business Development at Excite, Joe has done it all, leading from the front by making cold calls daily. Known for his belief in frameworks over scripts and a relentless focus on real conversations, Joe is here to share his insights on coaching, cold calls and SDR team success. Without further ado, let's welcome Joe. Thank you so much, Joe, for being on board here today for the podcast. How's the holiday season treating you?

It's good. It's getting cold quick, but yeah, happy to be on.

Awesome. Could you share for the audience a quick overview on your journey so far, both professionally and personally? I mean, I would love to know.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So my name is Joe Vieira and basically I've been doing cold outreach since college. So 12, 13 years. I started off going door to door construction services and made my way to sdr, SDR manager, and now I'm the director Business Development for a company called Excite. So. And I'm still making cold calls today. Right. So no matter what, I'm still knocking on doors and making cold calls.

That's. That's interesting. You're probably one of the very few ones you know who are actually in the director position and still making cold calls. How does that feel?

Honestly, I think my team loves it because they see their leader implementing their advice that he gives every day. Right. So I think my team loves it. And for me, I know how to make a good pitch now. Right. Like you don't know what works until you try it yourself. You don't know what questions to ask unless you actually do it. So it just makes everything and easier when you're actually doing the work.

Leading by example. I like that. Tell me more about your door to door selling experience. I always kind of interested to know how did the transition even happen?

Yeah, so it was a Company called collegeworks Painting. It was an internship for college students that taught you how to run an exterior house painting company. So not only am I going door to door and having consultations with customers, but I'm also hiring painters and teaching them how to paint houses and manage them to paint the exterior of a house. But I think the most important thing I learned there is how to be a good manager, how to be a good leader. Like, one of the things that have always sticked with me is that when you're leading a team, you're looked at like a fish in a fishbowl, which means, like, you're magnified, right? If you look into a fishbowl that has a bowl, the fish looks a lot bigger than it actually is. Meaning, like, your team is studying you, is watching you. If you are only putting 50% effort, your team's only going to put in 30% effort. If I put in 120% effort, if I'm running door to door, my team will jog. If I jog, they will walk. If I walk, they'll. They'll be looking at their phone. You know what I mean? So, like, the idea is that they will copy what they see, they will copy what they learn, which is, again, why I make cold calls. If they see me making 50, 60 cold calls a day now, there's no excuse that they can't make a hundred, you know? So I think that was one of the most impactful things I learned at college work, that when you're leading a team, they're studying you, and they're only gonna do a certain percentage of what you do. So when you're being watched, give it 100% so your team knows what 100% looks like.

I love that. I'm going to use that analogy somewhere for sure, but it's great.

Yeah.

Tell me more about your company. Like, what industry do you work in?

So Excite is creating. So we're kind of in a niche space, which is the audio visual industry. If you think about a conference room and all of the devices that go in a conference room, right, you have your display, you have the microphone, you have the lights, you have the touch panel that controls all these things. They're all built by different manufacturers, and all these manufacturers have different tools to monitor and manage their devices. But if you're the head of it at the corporate location for Chase, you're using five, six different tools just to manage one conference room. Our tech, Excite takes everything and puts it in one screen. A single pane of glass for them to truly manage their entire environment in one tool. So that's what we're doing. We work a lot, we work a lot with the manufacturers natively to help them build these tools as well. So we play in the AV space. We work with manufacturers, integrators, and even end users. Which is what's interesting for my SDR team. They're calling three different types of accounts, so teaching them how to have three different types of conversations, because today they'll call a manufacturer, tomorrow they'll call an end user. And they need to be able to adjust and adjust how they have conversations with all of these people.

Wow. I mean, that's. That sounds like a very niche industry and at the same time, something very new to me. I've never heard of. Tell me more about the challenges which you, which you think you're facing right now, which you feel, let's say any other typical SaaS company might not be.

Facing challenges that a typical SaaS company might not be facing. I think it's the fact that my 1 SDR has to not only call different Personas, but call different types of customers that all see value in our tool in a different way. Right. So it's not a one pitch fits all. It's, hey, if they're a manufacturer and this person is sales, he's going to care about how this tool helps them bring more money. If they're in support, they're going to want to know how does this tool bring better support. So I think that's the biggest challenge. Right. It's not only is it different Personas, but different types of end customers that they're calling. So, yeah, lots of different styles of conversations that they need to practice and get prepared for and learn how to get these people to open up and actually have conversations.

Quite interesting. So you're saying because there are three different Personas, I'm assuming there are three different pictures as well.

It's not just three different Personas. It's if I call the person that makes the device, or I call the person that installs the device, or I call the person that uses the device in their day to day. Right. So again, let's use like Planar. They make screens, Planar makes screens. Then we have integrators that put the screens in the building, and then we have end users that use the screen to do their conferences. We call every single one of those people and they all use our tech differently.

Wow. Again, pointing back to the same question. That means your team is juggling a lot more than A regular SDR would.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If I were to sell, I mean, I know I'm going to reach out to sales leaders, maximum, let's say, in some cases, enablement. But they're all in sales, Right. Same department. They're all talking to each other. They all know each other's challenges. But your team is probably putting in a lot more effort than any other SDR team. Is that assumption correct?

Yeah, assumption's correct. I don't know what the SDR teams are doing, but it's way different than what I did at my last two SESs companies. I call the same type of people at the same type of companies every day. And more or less, my pitch was relatively the same no matter who I called at those companies.

Interesting. That brings me to a question. Typically, again, going with the assumption here, and please correct me, how is your team juggling between these three mindsets quite frequently? Do they have, like, a cadence? Okay, right now I'm going to just call, let's say, one particular segment, like you said, consumer or probably integrator, and then switch to other Persona. Because this could be quite taxing, if you see what I mean. Right.

So that. That's also the thing that I tried to teach to make it easier is that we're just trying to have conversations with these folks to open up a conversation. Right. Like, what is our good opening question that we can use to have conversations? That doesn't feel like we're just calling people pitching and pitching and pitching, because that is so tedious and it's not fun at all. But we just have a simple schedule. Mondays and Tuesdays you call X. Wednesdays and Thursdays you call Y. Friday we call these people. So at least for that day, they have the system for that day. They know that today my pitch is all going to be around end users. So we break it up by days. Right.

That's. That's an interesting way to go about it. Tell me more about your team. Like, how big of a team you have.

It's pretty small, but it is growing. So we have two SDRs. And myself, we're hiring another SDR right now. So if anyone's watching this and needs an SDR job, check out our website.

So you said you have small team growing. I'm always curious, like, what is that inflection point? What makes a company decide, you know, okay, let's hire more sdr? Tell me more about that. How did you decide that we need more SDRs?

So one of the reasons why I make all the cold calls is to see how well it's responding. And if this is a really challenging cold call, maybe we don't need a bunch of SDRs. Because if I'm struggling, they're probably going to struggle too. But over the last month, we've really, really have found the right messaging that I have around a 30% hit rate. If I can have a conversation, there's a 30 to 40% chance you're you're going to be taking a demo, but there's at least a 90% chance where you're at least open for me calling you back because again, you're busy. And again, like I'm busy is true. Right? Like, that's not an objection I need to handle. I believe you. You have a lot of things going on. I will call you back. I believe you. So what was I saying? Oh, the second you start really finding your groove and making it, 30% of the connects. Set a demo. We're ready for an sdr. This person can crush it now. They'll be able to set a meeting a day to meetings a day. And that's what I'm waiting for. Like, once we figure that out, now we're ready to start hiring.

Thank you. That brings me to the next question. You said you have a small team, you're growing. What are some of the challenges of a small team? I mean, I can imagine a lot of challenges with the large team. Just trying to understand. And by the way, I want to ask you, do you have a remote team or do you work from office?

So one person is remote. They're international. Actually, they help out with our European time zones.

Got it.

And then we'll have two people in office, the new one that we're hiring and in the current one today.

Okay. All right, that's now, since I have the context of your workspace, tell me more about your challenges, if you have any the challenges.

An in person team, it's really. If people are new to SDR ing and they haven't SDR'd in person before, it's being comfortable making calls with your teammates and your manager sitting right next to you. Right. Like, how do I provide a safe space for you to feel comfortable to make mistakes? Because NCR ing you're making mistakes, you can't control what this other person says to you. Right. So it's not your fault that you couldn't set a meeting meeting even though you had a six minute conversation. Right. It's how do you provide a safe space where an SDR can come to their manager and Say I hit a really tough call. Could you give me feedback? How do you make them feel comfortable? And one of them is by me making a bunch of cold calls, them watching me make a bunch of mistakes, and they go, hey, he's not beating himself over it. Like, it's fine. He's willing to make mistakes in front of me, which should make it more inviting for you to feel free to make mistakes. You don't have to be shy that not every call goes well. But when you're in a big team, everyone's making mistakes. No one. You know, it's used to it when it's me and the manager making cold calls together. Little awkward when. When you bomb a cold call.

I like that. I think I would want to devote the rest of the time probably talking more about how do you coach your team and how do you run your day? Because I feel the, you know, not. Not two SDR managers are probably running the same day, running the day same way. You're making 50, 50 dials every day. I'm assuming that takes about two to three hours, right? Then you obviously have more time to devote your strategy, coaching the team. Tell me more about how do you coach your team? Tell me, how do you spend your day? I think, let's start with that.

I always start on LinkedIn, which is funny because a lot of people go on LinkedIn to start, like, posting content. I go on LinkedIn to find reasons to call people. If I see some comments, if I see, hey, we're doing this lunch. Learn about X. Hey, I saw that you plan on attending this trade show. Like, a lot of people like to talk about intent. I don't. I don't know how much of any of that stuff is real. The only intent that I believe is true intent is that you requested a demo. Like, now, that's intent. Other than that, you know, what is intent. So I try to find reasons to reach out to people, and I show my team that too. Like, hey, I found this. This is how I'm going to open up my cold call today, right? Like, this is how you actually personalize phone calls by actually bringing it up in the cold call, doing some light research. So I spent some time on LinkedIn trying to find reasons to call people. And then we do a call block right away in the morning. Me and my sdr, we also call Europe. So we spend the first hour of the day after looking at LinkedIn, making some cold calls. And, you know, you said you're going to bring up coaching. I coach during call block. Right. So I'm not sure for the people out there that have dogs, right? If your dog makes a mistake, you don't wait till tomorrow to fix it. If your dog makes a mistake, you train your dog on not to make a mistake right then and there. When they have it, when they make it. Same thing with SDR ing. If they're making cold calls and they mess something up. All right, 10 minute break. Let's review this cold call. Let's play it back. Let's talk about why this happened. All right, let's go. Execute. Right? Like, there's no reason that you have to wait for your one on one next Monday to provide feedback when it happened seven days later or seven days before. And more importantly, what, we're going to let them make more mistakes throughout the week until our one on one, the time to fix it is when it happens. So our cold calling blocks always end up being coaching blocks as well. It just always happens. And the same thing happens. If I make a mistake, I pause cold calling and me and the SDR will listen back to my cold call. I'm like, how could we have said this different? One of the big things I always, like, help with training is I ask an sdr, why did the prospect say this? Why did they ask this question? What did we say that got him to think about this question? Right? And it really helps when you're building scripts because if you keep getting the same question, how do I incorporate that answer during the pitch, during the conversation? That way we can skip that question. Why do I keep getting this question? Because you're not explaining it when it's your turn to speak. So things like that is how I coach. Provide, like immediate feedback, like during cold block. And then it's prospecting some more, researching websites. And really the research is finding what is the question I can ask that allows me to start a conversation. Right? So I see a lot of, like, cold calling techniques. It's like, hey, Bill, this is a cold call. Can you throw my phone out the window or should I not? You know, something like that, right? I'm like, all right, great, man. Like, you got the conversation. But you started off immediately with like, hey, I'm trying to sell you something. Can I sell you? I'm trying to teach my team with, hey, Bill, this is Bob. I'm calling because I saw you have this product. I was hoping if I could learn more about it. Do you mind if I ask you a question about it? And now we start talking about their product. We start talking about it and eventually we get into how we can help them if it makes sense. Because during this conversation, they might bring up objections which are just answers to the question that I asked that, hey, it doesn't make sense actually pitch you at all. Thanks for providing me this help. Thanks for answering my questions. Have a good one. I didn't even pitch. They don't even know who I am because it didn't make sense to bring it up.

No, that's a lot different than I think what I'm used to and what I have done for me. I think permission based opener has worked all the time. And I think what you're saying is also a form of permission based opener, but it's a lot different than what people usually do. Yeah, you know what? You want to roll the dice. You want to throw out your phone in the window.

Like when I call sales leaders, you know, it's because I call a lot of product and product. People love talking about their product. Right. They built it. They love talking about what they built. But when I call sales leaders, it's the same thing. It's, hey, man, I see that you sell this product. Do you mind if you tell me about how that works? Like, what? Can you tell me more about the product? They think you're a customer. And it's like, you know, they'll ask me, am I a customer? Eventually. But I get to learn a lot. We get to have a three minute conversation before I start pitching.

Now that's interesting. And isn't that dangerous at times? Because they not get offended at times. Or they were explaining to you because they thought you were a customer and all of a sudden then they realize, oh, you're not a customer. You're probably trying to sell them. Does that happen?

No, because let's say I do that opener and they tell me what I don't want to hear, which is they have a solution similar to ours. I'll go, bill, thanks so much for telling me that. I'm calling because I work at a company called Excite and this is what we do. And this is beautiful. Everything I learned is from Josh Braun. But right here, this is definitely a Josh Braun technique. I go, but it sound like you have everything figured out based on what you just told me, you wouldn't need a solution like ours. Is that right? And then they'll go, no, thanks a lot for calling. Or they'll go, well, actually, can it do X or Y? And I'll go, it does do X or Y. Hey, tell me more. Right? So like, they almost appreciate it because I'm not pitching until I understand if it's worth their time pitching. Because like I said, if they tell me what I don't want to hear, I'll just say, it sounds like you're all set. This is what we do. But again, it sounds like you're all happy with how you have it set up. And they go, yeah, we are really happy. And I go, thanks, man. Have a good one. Thanks, man. Have a good one. Phone call. Or they'll go, well, I was actually looking for something that can do y as well. Do you help out with that? We do. And now we get to continue that conversation about how we help. So very rarely has anyone ever said, oh, well, why you wait? Very rarely. They appreciate the fact that I'm not just pitching in the dark.

I like that. And it's again, I think I'm learning a lot myself when you're telling me that, and I think that's bringing me a lot of thoughts. One of the questions in the back of my mind ever since you told me that how you coach your team is how do you. How do you create that safe environment? Hey, I'm actually doing this feedback for you. And I'm assuming that when you're doing this call, you know, cold call feedback, it sits with the entire team, right? So everybody's listening to your calls. So while you're setting the example, right. In the past, you know, I've had few SDRs who would be like, now I don't want you to listen to my calls. That's it. Does that happen? If yes, I'd love to know how.

You, how you handle it. Does not happen. Because when we do cold call pitching and like, fixing, like, I usually, sometimes I play one of my calls first and I go, let's listen to this call. That didn't work. This is what I tried. That's new. Because again, like, a lot of what I do is I figure out what works and then I try to figure out the new things that could work. Like if I figured out a pitch for product and I got a good call script for it. Great. Let me figure out how can I get sales leaders to be interested in my product, right? So now my pitches, I'm only calling VPs of sales for the product because my team already learned everything else. So for cold call training, we'll play my calls and we'll give advice on to me about how my call could be better. And again, like, if they just see that their leader is making mistakes, their leader is looking for constant Feedback their leader is not an expert in cold calling. Even they need to research their own calls. Even they listen back to figure out how to make it better. I'm teaching them the framework of how to improve themselves. They hear me go to myself, why did this prospect ask me this question? What could I have said 30 seconds ago that would have gotten a different feeling or got this prospect to think differently than how he's thinking right now? Right? Like, if they ask a question I'm not excited for, I was hoping they'd ask me a different question. I'll go back and I'll go, what could I have said differently in my pitch that would have gotten this person more excited? And I show them that I asked myself that question, and now they know, oh, I should be asking myself that question whenever I get a response I don't like. So they see how I improve my own script for them to figure out how they can improve their own groups as well. But again, I think what they appreciate is the fact that any advice I give them, they see me actually implement. So when they come to me and they go, hey, this cold call bomb, they also go, what would you say differently? Right? Because that's how I've. That's what I do. I make bad cold calls and I try to reflect. How could I said this differently? So it's really, again, like, show them that you're okay with mistakes. If you're okay with failing, they'll be okay with failing too, I think.

I love that. I love that how you're leading all the time. And I think it. I mean, you're making me feel like I should be in your team, you know, now working with you. That's. That's pretty dope. Now, bringing me to the. Another aspect. Okay, we are all hearing AI AI, right? I'm speaking to other SDR leaders and everybody is. Does either have a mandate or at least is looking to improve the efficiency of SDRs. And efficiency could mean different things to different people. Some would be like, hey, my. My reps are doing a lot of manual job, for example. It could be research. It could be, you know, writing a full email, personalizing the whole email, which takes about 10, 15 minutes because they're doing the whole research. There are different aspects of AIA AI. What I'm curious to understand is how every other SDR leader is actually thinking about it. So I love your. Love to hear your thoughts and see if you have any tools you can swear by where you're using AI.

Personally, I hate AI. I hate it. I do not trust it. Now I do use a tool, it's AI based, it's called Personali AI, it's a startup out of Israel and what they do is help me segment my account because who I call really changes based on like how My opening question is really changes based on what kind of products they sell. So I use this AI tool just to tell me what do they sell? Are they in the audio space, are in the visual space? Are they system integrators, are they distributors? Check out their about me, tell me what they are and who they sell and what they sell. That is the only type of AI I really like. I do not. I, I love and this is a big time suck for the team but it's so valuable. I want them to go on websites, I want them to click around, I want them to like I know there's AI tools for LinkedIn prospecting, I know there's a lot but so much of the knowled is lost when you only get a two sentence about me from an AI tool. No, go on the website, click on the support button. How do they provide support to their customers today? And AI like what is the AI supposed to tell you? They don't. It's not going to be able to tell you much about how they provide AI, how they provide how they support their customers. I want my team to research a company, I want my team to research the individuals. I want every cold call that you start with to be different than the other cold call because again, our goal is to have good conversations and you can't do that if every opening is exactly the same. So while it is super tedious, their conversion rates are way higher because they sound like they know what they're talking about. And when someone says no, we do that differently. You're like oh, my bad. I was on your website and I saw X. So like my apologies, but it's not. Oh sorry. My AI tool gave me a 2 second blurb and I guess my AI tool sucks like it's a no. I got this from researching your website.

So that's bringing me so many questions now but I'm going to stick to a few. Okay, I like when you said that you know, research is important and of course an sdr who is doing the whole analysis and who is doing the research themselves. They would have a better talking point than the two liner and but my question is, and while that is important we have to keep in mind other factors. For example, let's say I spend 10 minutes on an account and I'M not able to even use that research anywhere, you know, because the prospect never answered the phone, for example. Do you not see that as a time not invested? Well, that they could have actually been working on accounts or, you know, working actually be on the call with customers who are actually answering and then maybe doing the research while they are on the phone? I don't know. I'm just thinking of.

Good question. So the part of research is also learning about the industry you're in, right? Like I'm new to the AV space. I have, I. People I speak to tell me stuff that go way over my head because I don't, I'm not in the industry. But every time I look at a website, I learn slightly more. A little bit just I, hey, I work with a lot of people in support and I see a lot that they use this tool. Why do I know that? It's because I went on everyone's website and I saw, hey, 10 people all use the same tool. Pretty good chance that when I call other people, they probably use this tool or this tool. And the only reason I know that is because I took the 10 minutes to research that account. More importantly, it's a niche industry in av, but any industry that goes to trade shows, which, you know, who doesn't, right? These people know each other. So even though they're not a customer, like I reference people that are not customers of mine all the time on cold calls to paint the picture how the industry is changing. Right. So I guess again I researched this company, couldn't connect with anyone, but maybe they're a competitor to the person I'm calling today, right now. And I can say, hey, the reason I'm reaching out is because I noticed a couple of people in the industry like X and Y and Z do support this way. I assume you're probably doing it that way too, right? And that's again, that's my, that's my opener. Hey, Bill, I'm reaching out because I, I work in the AV space. Companies like Kramer, blah blah blah and blah blah blah all do this. I was calling to see if you're doing it the same way. Did I call you at about time or would you mind sharing how you're doing? And the only, again, that opener only stemmed because I did research on all those competitors that didn't answer. Right. In your, in your example that didn't answer. But because I did the research, I'm able to use it on other people that I call.

Got it. So what I'm hearing is I come from an approach, of course, where I have a large stamp. And it seems like, you know, in a niche industry, you like yours, you do not. And it actually makes sense to also research. And it's also good for the practice, like you said. And you never know. You know, somebody who's not a customer today may become a customer tomorrow because of that level of trust and the deep research you're able to today. Is that right?

Yeah. And it's just like, man, I'm not an industry expert, but I know enough to have an educated conversation with you, right? Like, yeah, sure. I don't. You're about to tell me a bunch of things I don't understand. But you can see I have knowledge of the industry. I know what tools other people are using. Right. So again, maybe I'm not an expert in you or your technical skill set of whatever it is. When I talk to product people, they go crazy and I'm like, I didn't understand any of that. But my question was so good that they trusted me. They thought I was an expert. Right? They. My question was so well prepared, they thought I was an expert and they got into the weeds. And then I say, and then, you know, classic technique. Josh Braun. Hey, it sounds like you're using X, Y and Z. Like, did I summarize that correctly? Is that what you just said? Yeah, that's exactly cool. This is how we help.

That is amazing. Yeah, I can totally see that working and can't wait to use this, it looks like. I think I haven't used that for a while, but I think that could be the game changer.

I love saying that. It's the easiest way to get the truth out of someone. Just say something incorrect, they'll fix it. Hey, I think you're using this tool. No, you got it wrong. We're using X, Y and Z. Like, thanks, I appreciate that.

Okay, let me try that on you. Joe, looks like you have everything under control with your team. Is that right?

Yeah, that one I would say. No, because I'm like, I don't know why. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, hey, Joe, I assume, like, you're an SDR leader. I assume you're using LinkedIn automation tools like X or Y. Is that right? No, I'm actually using X. But yeah, we do a lot of LinkedIn automation.

Brilliant.

Cool. I know X. And usually I hear from people that when they use X, this part sucks. Like, do you. That resonate with you? Now we're in conversation.

I like that. I like that. Great. Joe, I think this was great having you here. I think I do have a rapid fire for you if you're ready for it. Let me know when you're ready. And the way rapid fire works is you will not take a pause. You will say the first thing which comes to your mind.

Cool.

Right? Okay, let me know. One, two, three. All right, how many coffees are too many in a day?

2.

What's your SBR spec fee? Just checking in, email or hope you're well opener?

Say that again.

What's your SDR pet peeve? The just checking an email or the hope you're well opener?

Oh, both. Yeah, but all of those suck. Yeah, both.

All right, what's one thing SDR should never say on a call?

Nothing's off limits. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Unless you're gonna throw your phone out of the window as your opener. That's Garfield garbage. Don't ever say that.

All right, if you had one, if you had a magic wand, what's one thing you would make all SDR stop doing?

Oh, man. I think it's like, stop following the script. Frameworks are what work, not a concrete script. A robot reads a script, a human talks from. From their brain. Right? Like, stop reading scripts. That's brutal.

All right, next one is going to be a little cringe, but let's see if you can answer it. If you had to sell ice to an estimo, what would you be our opening line?

If I had to sell Iced. An escrow. Hey, Mr. Eskimo, I assume you like ice and that you like all the ice you have, and you wouldn't be interested in learning about more ice. I'd give them the option to say, no. I'm actually looking for this type of ice. Hey, I see that you buy a bunch of ice. I'm an ice distributor. But I would assume you're probably all happy with whoever you're working with today, and then, yes, I'm super happy. Okay, have a good one. You know, give them the option if they want to engage in conversation. I've never sold ice to an Eskimo, but I think I'd go something like that.

Yeah, I think you do a good job. I think I should have also asked you how to sell a pen, but, yeah, I think this was a job well done. My last question. I know you don't like a lot of AI tools. Okay, let me ask you this. This is something which I'm thinking on the fly. What's one tool you absolutely hate in.

Sales, intent based stuff, all of that. Like, the only intent that actually shows intent is you're on my website and you're requesting a demo. Other than that, I don't know what any of this intense stuff is.

This was such a fun conversation, Joe. I think you said all the things which are totally the opposite to what most ideal leaders believe in. That's why I think I love it. And I think that's where I think this will make a hell of a podcast.

Awesome. Thanks for all. I'm happy to jump on.

Thank you so much for being here, man. Have a good one. Bye.

You too. Have a happy holiday.