Confessions of an SDR- Dave Denny

This is the Sales Spin podcast. You are listening to Salespin, India's top B2B sales podcast, where we bring the world's best sales experts, successful sellers and sales leaders who share their strategies to succeed in sales right now and talk about things no one else will. And now, Raul Wadhwa.

Thank you so much, Dave, for coming to the show.

Of course, man. More than happy to come for this show and help you out with your podcast.

I think I have a long list of questions which I'm gonna ask, and topic, in case it's not clear for anybody, is confessions of an sdr. It's gonna be controversial. It's gonna be sensational. Let's keep it that way.

Let's hope so.

All right. I think, Dave, I think it'll be helpful for anybody who's watching this for the first time would be to what is an sdr? You're an sdr. What does an SDR do?

So, in the conventional sense, an SDR is someone who is the frontline of your GTM function. Someone who gets the list of accounts that you have, the places you want to be, and the customers that you want. Your frontline sales reps are the ones who initiate that conversation for you. So it's not a direct close or a direct closing rule, but someone who gets that meeting for you. Someone who is, hey, this is interesting. Want to come check it out? Would be what an SDR does.

Sounds jazzy, though. What do you tell your parent you actually do?

I try to explain to them, like, hey, this is sales. But they just. They just confuse and they're like, hey, isn't that just marketing?

That's what you do.

Hey, get somebody's attention and bring them in. But then I have to, like, explain to them, no, marketing is different. We are more aggressive with our approach for bigger deal sizes and all of that. So, yeah.

What do you tell your friends you do?

I just tell them I have a job that pays really well.

Okay. What do people actually think you do?

Like I said, so mostly it's just like, marketing. They're just like, hey, which company do you work for? And thing about startups is they don't usually know which area you would be in. If I say a startup like B2Brain, they'll be like, like, hey, what is that? Do you, like, sell brains or something? But I'm just like, no, it's just we do this, we do that, and they're like, oh, that is very interesting. And then they start throwing in names like Salesforce and Zendesk. So those companies, they know because they're widespread. Right. But yeah, then they get the gist of, like, where we're trying to go. So, yeah.

Okay. Can you talk more, maybe a little bit more about how has your journey been in the last. How many. How long you've been in SDR in B2B SaaS?

It's been about a little more than a year. Maybe like a year and two months in sales in total. I think I started in 2020 of October. That was mainly B2C sales and mentorships and all of those.

About two years?

Yeah, about two years in sales altogether.

How's the journey?

It's fun. I'm not burnt out yet, so thank you. I'm hoping it stays that way. If you guys are watching, if you want to throw some opportunities my way, I'm all game. But, yeah, so for me, it was always. I always had a thing where I wanted to become an SEO manager. I love helping people, coaching them to hit their goals. That's what drives me more than psychologically closing people. So that would be where I would want to go.

Okay, so I want to talk about the perception of this role and how this has evolved in the past few years. Maybe now in the best I know most of the leaders, most of the CEOs, everybody kind of talks about, hey, this is the most important part of the role. This is the most important role in the company because everybody should be an sdr, blah, blah, blah. I want to understand. Do you think that's the same case in India in that sense?

I always tell people that in India, an SDR role, even the B2B SaaS, space is still maturing. We're in a country where you're still developing. We are like, people are still trying to recognize what India can do and what it's about. And that's why I never ventured into other markets. Because here it's like a stock market philosophy of buying low and selling high.

Right.

If you can place yourself in a higher position in a country that is just developing, you'll always have that leverage. In the US since there are already people who are doing great things. You hear so many great names, so many great influencers, it'll always be tougher to cut through that. In India, it's a bit more easier if you put in a little less work, but still more work compared to the other.

Probably cut that. Okay. All right, well, I agree with that. However, I still want to undouble. Click on the point when you tell people, hey, this is what I do. Jokes apart, when you tell people, hey, I actually make 50 calls, 60 calls a day, I write emails and tell people into setting up a meeting or whatever your objectives are, do you think you feel that pride the way most people would have actually done, for example, if they're engineer, doctor, whatever, pride.

So for me in that sense, I come from, from a place where I've always worshiped someone who does entrepreneurship and that kind of role. For them, building startups is always a tough task. They have to do whatever it takes to build their business and get the business. So there is no pride over there. Pride only comes when you start making that revenue, start building your brand and you become that unicorn. So in the early stages there is, if you have a, if you have pride in being a founder or a, or an entrepreneur, it's not going to work out for you in a lot of sense, because first of all, you have to do a lot of things to get paid you want to be. And if you have that pride also, another thing that I've seen with a lot of entrepreneurs is that they, when they have that pride, they don't upskill themselves a lot. They don't have that way of staying humble. Hey, I need to learn more to get where I am. So again, like, pride would never be a thing if you're in this field because you always have to keep upskilling yourself and get to where you are.

You have to see, while that is all an ideal statement which you're making, however, what I'm trying to understand is, let's say in your water cooler chats with your friends, colleagues, everybody else, let's say, who's all on str, do you think you deserve or you, I'm sorry, not deserve. You get the same respect, for example, as other people in the company. For example, somebody who's actually closing those deals. Maybe an AE for lack of a better word.

So for me it's not respect would be, would not be, be the word I would use. It would be more of recognition. Okay, so it would be more like, hey, okay, I see you doing this. I see that you have the potential to do this as well. So why don't we devise a game plan for you to get there so that recognition is very honest. I don't think SDRs will be like, hey, I respect you for setting that meeting. They'll be like, hey, okay, you're doing really good. Why don't we work on what you have to do next?

Okay, let me put it in a more straightforward manner. Do you think you Have a seat at the table or you're probably sitting next to the table or probably sitting far away from the table.

So again, that varies from company to company. Yeah, so I've seen managers who do not care. I've seen managers who really care. So again, that differs from company to company. And yeah, I have been in companies that have both ends.

So yeah, okay, again, I'm talking about perception. So I have more questions. So do you think at any point of time VRs would probably feel insecure to talk to someone higher in the management because they think, hey, I'm just an SDR always. All right.

And this answer, I think every str, especially in my DMs, in your DMs would agree with this. Because the thing is, in the end they are in the power position. If we are just two months, three months into the role we are still in, we are still in probation. Our jobs can go anytime you want. And our job is a numbers based game. If you're not getting that number in two to three months and you go and tell your manager, hey, this is the problem. You try to question them, it's a problem. They'll be like this guy, he doesn't, he doesn't look at authority the right way. He's not getting numbers either. Why should I keep him in my team? So again, it comes back to the question of hey, what kind of manager are you? Are you accountable for your team? Are you accountable for their actions and what they do? Do you take feedback correctly?

So how about other teams? So for example, I mean from where I come from, nurse are respected a lot, right? I'm sure that's the same case with let's say all the other families, especially in India. Do you think for example engineering teams or design team or marketing team, respect.

The STR with marketing, with engineering and design teams, it's more around. It's more of an a B test with us. Like we never talk about respect as such. It's like more around, hey, we are bringing out this feature. Do you think after selling to your icp, would this be beneficial to you? How could you sell it to them? And can you put this into your workflow? Since. So since I work with more sales, selling to sales, right? They're like, can you put this into your workflow and see if it'd be beneficial to you?

Book a lot of calls, a lot of meeting through your calls, right? It might be possible for you for example, to do that, that while you're actually speaking to a prospect. And hey, do you have this. Do you have this? We launched this. Do you have this? It's easier for you. Somebody who's booking a meeting through emails may or it may or may not be beneficial for him. So the point I'm trying to make is when marketing is speaking to a sales team, do they consider you as somebody who should give an opinion while they're actually making some changes? Back to changes. Or is it primarily sales managers or the account executives or maybe someone who's bringing money to the table?

So again, I think this is a personal opinion, but I have heard like good traction, like agreeing to this opinion. But I feel like although everyone agrees that there should be a marketing sales silo, neither team should be working under each other because a marketing person's KPIs and the way they conduct their teams and the salesperson's KPIs and the way they conduct teams is completely different. The heads and the manager should have a discussion, bring up a plan, and then we can trickle it down. But if a marketing person comes and starts ordering your sales reps, it's hell's gonna blow. And if a sales manager is gonna say, hey, we need these kind of MQLs, it's. It might work out, but the probabilities are really less.

Where I'm coming from is since you guys are closer to the ground, you guys are talking to way more people than account executive or sales manager or even CEOs would. They might not have the same view as you do. Yeah. So that is where I'm coming from. Do you think your opinion would actually matter? In case, for example, since you talk to a lot of prospects and you book a lot of meetings through cold calls, you know the real problem. And while you're reporting those problems back to the your sales manager, and I'm sure there's somebody in the organization listening to those calls, they would have some view. Yeah, but not as much as you do. So do you think the R should have a view in terms of. Let's say you're selling sales tool. Right. You're using that tool to sell it to other sales organizations. So you would know better when that workflow, let's say, when that feature is introduced, hey, this is bullshit. Or probably this is great. Yeah.

For sales and to sales. Yes. I have noticed that. I have always had that thing with the engineering where, hey, we've noticed that this is something that they would need more than this. But I feel like when you're a sales team who is selling like customer success or engineering, maybe the Inputs might not be valuable because that's not expertise. Right. So again it depends on different teams to teams and where you're selling.

Right. So I started in customer care about 2008 and I had a four month training. Just to imagine four month training where I was given training on the product, one month product training and one month training on communication skills. Then there were one month of mock calls and then there was actually when we went live on the fourth month and then it took me another month to make sure getting those numbers which was required, CSAT and all that, whatever. Customer care now, four months of training. As much as I understand the situation in India and even across the globe, the training is near less than a month. Yeah. Do you think the training, first of all comment on the training which you have got. And I think that's, that should not be a surprise because yeah, everybody is.

Going through the same in terms of training. Since I've worked in companies that have are very early in startups, we like 10 to 20 people versus companies who are hitting like the 100 employee mark. And then I have gotten opinions from people who are working in enterprises as well. So the training durations have always been different for all of these companies. For a smaller company, I've seen people hire experienced people. Like again, again, when you go to the job posting, they always want someone with two years of experience and they'll always come to me and ask for efforts. They're like, hey, do you know any good SDR out there? I'm like, what are you looking for? Like, yeah, we need this done, we need that done. How much pay will you give? Nothing, absolutely nothing. So I'm like, then how can you expect a good sdr? And then I'm like, okay, if you want, if you're only giving this much pay, I have this candidate for you. But they would need training. They'll be like, nah, we don't want to do that. So then, and this comes back to like why there are so many people being like, hey, we are struggling to hire. Do you have any referrals? Because the problem is that you are not ready to invest in your team as manager. And I understand you're in a growth phase. You want to grow really fast. Spending four months on training a new SDR and not knowing if they'll stay with your startup or not is a risky investment. But again, that is the risk you have as a startup, that is the startup pain. So that is a risk you will have to take that, hey, I know that my training might make them Stay. The culture might make them stay, the product might make them stay. But that training wise again, there's a lot of leeway that needs to be done. So I always see training like when an SDR comes into your organization, they are basically coming to, coming basically coming into a movie. So you have to sell your str on the product first before they go out and sell it. So if a CEO tells their SDRs or their frontline reps, hey, this is why we started this company, this is why we sell the product. This is where our customers are and this is exactly where we want to target, they'd be like, oh, okay, this product has been sold here before. You just be like, hey, this is the product co sell it. They'll be like, I don't know, where does this fit? Because every employee can never have an entrepreneurial mindset.

True.

They don't know where the business has come from, what's the reason for building it and everything. Some people might have it and I feel like those people are the best SDRs, especially those who have, who are serial entrepreneurs. Like, you know, they've tried entrepreneurship and come into SDR roles. They understand the hustle and the pain and they are always self learners.

Right.

But if you want to recruit talent like massively in a mass scale, you have to have process in place for it.

What do you know anyone, or let's say even you have brought this to your organization or any of the previous organization you have worked for. And it's not a dig on anybody, it's the whole reality. It's not that one company is doing so well that they have a four month or five month training program. I don't know a single organization which has it, at least in India. So I think it's out on the open. Do you think, have you brought this up or has, do you know anybody who has brought this up?

Yeah. So I'm a rebel in the industry and I always make sure that I'm very straightforward. And that too, I'll only be straightforward once I've had attraction in organization. If I show that I have SEO potential and I can bring genuine revenue and have an impact in your company, then I would ask, hey, why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? Can we take this to another level? It's not gone well, obviously. And that's when I have such substance. But yeah, I've always tried to bring it up with people and with my managers, with my colleagues as well. But again, still a lot of work.

Okay, how much Training do you think is required for somebody, let's say, who has not been, who does not have an entrepreneur mind or does not come from that background? Yeah.

So again, that question can be dissected into different SDRs coming from different backgrounds. Now, a person who has come from B2C background has already had a few. A bit of cold calling experience, a bit of cold emailing experience. So they might need lesser training than somebody who's not been in sales at all because they just need to learn the technical jargons and the technical side of the SaaS industry.

What about the unlearning?

So that's. The unlearning is more of the easier part. So they. All they have to do is maybe be a bit more empathetic on calls rather than being more pushy. So since I've worked in Byju's, I've seen people come from Byju's to SaaS, the issues they face. And the best SDRs that I've seen have come from Byju's and Zomato. I don't know why. It's just like the statistic thing that I've seen where these two companies have always given great B2B assassins tiers and training them has always been simpler and they always tend to get rock stars. Since I've worked in byjuice, I've seen how they train people for cold calls, how they explain the product to them, how the selling works. It's only that first bit where you're a bit pushy, but when you're selling your product, it's empathetic in understanding of how like how process works and how.

When you said it. I'm just trying to think about why that might be the case and I'm just trying to take a wild guess. It's because maybe in B2C they've had more exposure talking to people while. Which you don't get in B2B because 1 in 80 call connect and there probably 1 in 10 call will connect. So you have. You're actually talking to more people, getting more feedback, you're actually practicing more and eventually improving.

Yeah. Also that reluctance to pick up the phone.

Yeah. Because. Because you don't have.

Yeah.

Emotionally you can't book, you can't sell Baiju's on LinkedIn or you can't.

Impossible. So that's. Those are some things that I had to learn. So like I mentioned, I'm not. I am. I might be a good caller. Always emailing has been the issue for me because I've been Calling for so long, emails. I only started writing when I came into B2B.

Since you spoke about calling, I think babe asked you a question on LinkedIn. When are you starting your own masterclass?

See, the thing is I'm just like one, one year and two months into the industry. I still have the imposter syndrome that's, hey, I might not be good enough for it. Hey, there is a lot more to learn about this. Maybe that day I might start a masterclass when I'm like, hey, okay, I'm done with cold calling. This is all I need to learn. But again, like, that comes back to the conundrum. Should you start before you're done? That kind of thing. Have you heard of that analogy?

No, but of course I'm not a stranger to imposter syndrome. And I think the time will never come is all I can tell you. There will not be a perfect time. And if you're thinking about, I'm going to wait. I'm on this 18 month system. I can't do it. Trust me, you can think about because you're thinking about. Because you are already looking up. You're looking at people who have had years of experience and you're like, they have this much and I don't have anything. But you're not. What you're not seeing is probably people who are starting right now. Yeah. They don't need to look up to them, they need to look up to you. Or people who are actually at two years or lesser and doing great.

So this actually I was just speaking to a friend and a colleague yesterday about this and he gave me this perspective. He's. You don't have to sell it to the people above you, you have to sell it to the people who actually need it.

Not bullshitting.

Yeah, you know, bullshitting at all.

Okay. What do you think is the training gaps right now, which India as a country still has when it comes to training their SDRs, and what are the top three areas where you think training is still required?

Like I said, in terms of the company vision, your CEO, first of all, he should clearly convey to your manager.

Should we say they.

Okay, yeah, sure.

All right. Just kidding. Yeah.

But yeah, they should convey to their managers. And the thing is, one place where I see the training gap coming in is where the manager accountability. So it always reminds me of the scene from Independence Day when they figure out how to take out the shields of the aliens. But the President is, hey, listen, I'm a pilot at heart. I don't have to sit on A seat and just wait there. I'm going to come on the field with you.

Wow.

So that has always been an SDR mindset, that SDR manager mindset that I've always wanted to get to my team. So I've seen this happen at a few companies where the Director of Sales, the SDM manager, is on field with us, making calls, sending out emails. And the thing is, they set the targets for the team according to what they can do as well. Problem with some of the most SDR managers in India right now is they've never been on the field. They are just like, hey, these are your targets. We need to hit this much revenue. Go get it. Have you tried going and getting it? Has that happened?

No.

The thing is, another thing that comes from a training perspective here is if the SDM manager is on the field, understands the objections, understands what the ICB is responding to, he will be able to create an even more efficient playbook. So again, that benefits the SDRs even more.

See, while again, I have been vocal about that fact as well, just the point you just raised. At the same time, I'm also trying to help everyone who's probably watching or listening to this is understand a different perspective as well, which is now think about somebody who has been VP of Sales for some time, they might have made cold calls and given the control they have, that is whether it's to dictate that strategy or maybe hiring those people who can make your job easy. So while I understand you might not be reporting directly to VP Sales, but you might be reporting to, let's say, Director of Sales or SDR or whatever. Yeah. Now, in that case, even if they want to, they might not be able to do it and they might have done this in their prime years and they might not have the time right now given their other responsibilities. So I want everybody who's probably listening to this also to understand that perspective.

I completely agree. I completely agree with that. And obviously VP of Sales, we have started setting meetings with VP of Sales and everything and they're always busy. But I'm just telling you, this is the. It would be an ideal way of creating the most solid playbook because again, if you want me to take names, our director, Sales at Outplay, even though he was a Director of Sales there, he used to work, he used to still make calls and send out emails.

Okay.

I used to see meetings from him, close deals from him, even though he was a Director of Sales.

Wow.

So I understand it takes a lot of hustle. But if you truly Want to set an example for your team?

I would do it. Yeah, I know. I agree. Leading with an example is the best thing a leader could do. Instead of saying, or maybe holding those long meetings where you're giving those pep talks. Yeah, just go out and do it and probably show your team how it's done. So that's definitely there. Thanks for bringing that up because now I have more tougher questions for you.

That's fine.

All right. Another controversial thing or taboo topic I want to cover is the salary or the compensation.

I have this philosophy. This is a philosophy that I used when I was, when I was trying to become an entrepreneur. So whenever you go to a company working for somebody, if it's a startup or a mid sized company, if there's a salary that you're paying, they're paying you yearly. Take that salary. Take 10% of it. Oh, I'm sorry. Take the salary. The salary that you get, that salary should be 10% of the revenue that you generate for them. So suppose this very example. I'm not saying I get this much, by the way, but this is just an example. Suppose a person is getting $30,000 a year. Again, I'm not getting this just for an example. If they're getting $30,000 a year, the minimum pipeline that I should be generating for that company is $300,000 a year in terms of meetings and whatever KPI you have.

So you. Okay, you mean 10x. You did not mean 10, 10x.

Yeah, 10x.

10X. So 10x of the pipeline. Okay. That's a new thing for me, if I'm being honest. And yeah, I think could be a good benchmark for somebody who is probably starting right now. Not bad. Yeah. So you're gonna pay 30, 000 or 40, 000?

No, not close.

You talk to other SDRs who are probably starting the career right now, and you also are. I'm sure everybody's aware of how much each. Everybody's being paid. What's average salary like? Do you think that's fair? Do you think there could be an increment to it? Do you think? You know what I think then that's just the way it is.

I have seen people approach this in two different ways, right? In small, smart startups and startups that have a bit more capital, bit more revenue. So in start in startups that have a bit more capital and revenue, they always try to keep the pay of the SDRs equal. Because again, like SDR stock, we are a team, we're a family, we have to talk to each other. If you tell somebody a salary and they're getting more and they're like even lesser experienced than you or on the same level, you just be demotivated to work, right? You'd be like, oh, they're not paying me enough to work this morning. I've seen that happen and I've seen them match the payment of the base pay of the entire team and doing that as well. So that's a good thing to do. Even though they might not bring in as much revenue, it culturally keeps the team sane like they are. They might have long more longitudinal in terms of staying the company and all that in startups is where I've seen like they always bargain. They're like, hey, this is all we can pay you. And I was severely underpaid when I started this industry. Like in this industry, like severely. Like I still remember in my second company, I was just talking to my colleague, it was like my first month, I just finished ramping and he was asking me like, we were just having casual chat and we were just like, hey, what's the pay like? So I tell him my pay and he's like, dude, are you sure? I can't believe you're only getting this much. And I'm like, yeah, isn't that a good salary? And that comes back, hey, how many SDRs are not aware of the pay? And I'm just like, whoa, you're getting that much? I can't even imagine making that much. Now I always make it a point to make it vocal. So if whenever I refer somebody it's.

How do you know today that you are being paid? For example, it's a question for every SDR eventually. Because I remember I wrote a long post sometime back where I said, what I would I go speed seven years back, that's not even the base salary today. Yeah, seven years back, imagine the inflation. And I know a lot of people send DMs to me asking, hey, I'm being paid this much, is this right? Or am I not being paid enough?

So for me, in terms of that it's. I always compare my pay range. So there's always a range of salaries that every company offers you. Some companies might give you more, some companies might give you less. So I always check in terms of what kind of management is present there, what kind of peer to peer learning can I get? Can I upskill my career? What does the growth plan look like in that company? What is the work volume that looks like in some companies they have KPIs which actually makes you do eight hours of work. Even though if. Even if you set two, three meetings a day, they'll make. They'll be like, you have to hit your KPIs. So again, if you have to do that, you might. It's more time from your end.

Right.

Some companies are like, hey, if you get this much, you can do whatever you want. So you can get that in three, four hours. You can get that in eight, nine hours. Doesn't matter. So that's up to you. So depending on that, I'm just like, hey, this is what seems fair for me, doing this much work for you. And that's my salary. And I've never seen a manager saying him, you deserve more than this. Obviously they won't say that, but I'm hoping one day they will.

So what you're saying is, in a nutshell, while people are looking as an, as a. As an SDR role, while they're looking at the compensation, they must also look into other factors. Like you said, like how the learning would look like, how the ramp period would look like, would they have enough leeway to try on their own sequences or emails or whatever. The company, the management, the vision, like a lot more factors. Right? Yeah. Which goes into this. Okay. Yeah. Now, SDR role also involves dealing with other people, especially your account executive, or what we call popularly as ae. How much do you think your success or your growth depends on a company and in terms of the relationship that.

You have with your ae, in terms of that also? So obviously every SEO has disputes with ae. Is this meeting qualified? Why should we qualify it? And we always have that thing like, hey, why don't we ask the manager? So again, like, it's always good to have. So we used to have this thing in a company called Rules of Engagement. If this is satisfied, then we'll consider it qualified. If it's not, then tough luck, like, you're not gonna accomplish it. In terms of that, it's always good to have the rules of engagement. Now, there might be a situation where you might be given an AE who's on ramp, or maybe you're given somebody who's not a great closer. So in. In terms of that, again, it's good to be vocal about it to your managers. If you think it's a qualified meeting, you can always be vocal about it. You can be like, hey, this, I think this is it. But I would recommend one thing. Never be on your AES bad side, because in the end, like, he has to close it for you. Your commission is based on it and it's always good to have that. So I always say that sales is a team game and a lot of people say that it's the thing that you have to play together as a team. And if you're, if they're like disrupts in your team, it's always like it's going to be a rocky next few months for you. So it's always better to have that connect with uae. But if it's not working out for you, just make sure that you take it culturally appropriately towards your manager, not just fight about it.

I think you're saying a lot of politically correct statements anyway. So let me give you two scenarios and tell me which side you have been on. Yeah. And a, who will accept any and every single opportunity you will send him his way, his or her way. And second would be who will not accept any opportunity no matter what you do.

So accept as a qualify or.

So while there are rules of engagement, like you said, they will always be, there will always be tips around while you think something is qualified. Let's say, let's say you forgot to ask the prospect about the number of seats, for example, number of seats is one of the criteria. Right. And while you think they have a large sales team and you believe, let's say that's qualified, but your account executive believes this is something which you should have actually clarified on the call or email before he accepts as an opportunity. Right? So in this case, again, assuming that this is one case, there can be thousands of cases like this where you're dealing with conflicts on a daily basis, bringing in your manager and manager has to side with one buddy, one person, or eventually get into the conversation.

So usually in this sense what happens is the meeting actually goes to the second one and it doesn't get qualified in the first one. And that's where SDS kind of get annoyed because if you have monthly targets, right, and your second meeting is set for the next month, it's a problem. So yeah, of course I have been in the receiving end of both because there have been AES who is a believer of, hey, if an SDR brings in a meeting that do with the vp, they deserve to be credited for it. So whatever happens on the call, if there's only like in a band qualification, if there's only one or two things missing, they'll be like, it's fine. Qualified, sure. But I've been on the other end as well where they're like, hey, I don't think this is going to Result in pipeline. But the problem is there are products that we work with who are in very competitive markets with a lot of competitors. The problem is the timelines will never.

Agree and given the uncertainty right now, it'll even be hard.

Exactly. So there'll always be one thing that will be missing on Bad Band qualification. So then are you not just. Are you just going to stop crediting your SDRs for the meeting? Then there's no point. Then our job becomes redundant. So again that's where we try to find the balance of hey, should we qualify this or not? So again that depends on what process set up in your team and like what this thing is done.

Yeah. Okay. So what's your whole view on the remote work?

So it's interesting. Like I have seen pros and cons in both ends of remote work and office work. Now when I was in office work and I was on ramp, it was always more easier to interact with my colleagues. People who have more experience, go to them and ask them for the doubts and get cleared that way. In remote work when I'm on ramp, they are like I'm messaging them on Slack and they're just like replying after two hours and I'm waiting for I need to send a follow up email after my call. Hey, what should I say to him? What kind of objection should I, how should I deal with this?

Calling is not an option because you don't know if they're on a call or not.

Exactly. Because they're always on meetings. Right. In this at least you can tell them to switch off the camera. Hey, I have this situation. What do you think about it? So in that way I've always loved office work. Now if you are person working in the office in Bangalore, I have sympathies for you because I have the time I had when I was working in Bangalore was like peak rainy season. And again I was obviously underpaid. So I can't take a cab to the office. I had to go by bus in the starting of my career. And the bus doesn't stop right in front of your office.

Right.

And walking in the rain, being late, taking one and a half hours to and fro from your day, it was horrible. And that too someone working the night shift. So in my first job it used the timing used to be 8 to 5. 8pm to 5am wow. So the thing is if I don't get a bus at 5pm, I'm not getting a bus. So I have to start my journey at 5pm get on the bus get to the office, 6pm, wait for my work shift to start, and then go.

Until 5am and then go home.

And the problem is buses in Bangalore only start at 6am so wait another hour for the bus to start, then go home. And by the time I'm home and I'm asleep, it's 8am wow. So in that sense, I would not like office work.

Yeah.

Because right now, if you're working remotely, exactly at 6 o', clock, you can log in. Exactly at 3 o', clock, you can log out. Which is pretty basic. You don't have to like travel anywhere, get stuck in the rain. So again, up to company. To company. Everything has its own pros and cons, depending on what kind of style you.

Want to go for.

It's.

Yeah, I never looked at it that way. I never thought this could be a problem again. Yeah, I know. I'm sure you're talking about. And I'm pretty sure any. Anybody who's starting in a decent organization as an SDR would not probably have to go through that because usually people would pick up, pick a place nearby. For example, if somebody's relocating to Bangalore, that would not be a problem. But I can understand that this could actually even be. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Especially like you've done so much hard work.

Yeah. I mean, so that's the thing, right? Even in terms of paying the relocation thing, usually people who are just trying to get a job, they'll never know how to ask for a relocation bonus. They'll never know how to ask for a night shift lounge. These kind of things I only knew once I joined the job. And my colleagues are like, you should have asked for this.

Yeah, I don't know.

So that's the thing. So that's why we're on this podcast, to educate people more like they should.

And I, I can totally see you one day talking about that old guy lives like my father, or probably our father would say, remember, you know, when I was. I used to get drinks and.

Yeah. Now you're just in the metaverse on your VRs. You're setting up meetings. It's so easy for you. Go stand out in the rain for a while.

Interesting.

Yeah.

I think we're probably coming towards the end and I think I want to ask you like a sort of. Not a hard question, but I'm sure it's a question on everybody's mind, which is like you said, at one point of time, it's a role which could be made redundant overnight. It's a numbers game. If you don't have your numbers. Yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of anxiety. Companies talk about, we are promoting mental health and all that. Nobody knows the ground reality as much as you do, as much as your colleagues or peers would do. How do you deal that on a daily basis?

Like I said, in terms of that, I would always recommend somebody who is new to the game to always try to aim and get into big organizations where they have that levy of giving you some time before you start performing. If you're getting into startups, you have to be ready to face the ground reality that life is going to be really tough for you. Because when you're in a startup and you're trying to get those numbers again, every startup wants to scale up as.

Fast as possible, right?

They want to get that funding. They, that's their motive right now. If you as an SDR wants to take things slow and take things at your own pace, it's not going to work out. It's going to be very tough. And that's why I come back to the point of serial entrepreneurs becoming best SDRs. Because they have been trying to set up their business for one to two years. Working 16, 14, 16 hours a day for them, that's like nothing. Hey, I'll do this work, I need to get paid. Yeah, but a person who's just like out of college, they've just been like, hey, this is not a thing for me. I'm just searching for the next thing that I should go into. They need to have this mentality. And that's why the supply demand gap in the SCR role is so big and there is no supply of SDRs. Because the role is. Because when I tell people itself, hey, I'm in sales, they'd be like, why? Like, why do you want to do that to yourself? Why do you want to get rejected every day on 60 calls? And that's the supply problem that we have. But the demand is really high. Everyone wants to set up their business, everyone wants to get the revenue, everyone wants to get the numbers. So yeah, go ahead.

No, actually that is bringing me to so many questions. Number one being when you talked about demand supply problem, we know there's a problem of supply, right? We know the demand is high. What do you think organizations can maybe. It could be small steps, it could be baby steps. We're not expecting Elon Musk level in authority. So what do you think companies can do right now?

This is what I always tell companies that are looking to hire SDRs and SDRs who are looking out for a job always try to go through third party who has validated the training part and the hiring part and they're trustworthy. So some cohorts like I will always recommend cohorts to them where you can go into the cohort, they train you, you will get a gist of what cold calling looks like, how you can unlearn, relearn things, how you can write emails, how you can bring, build your presence on LinkedIn. And most of the cohorts like they have people who have already established themselves as managers in the field like on B2B sales. And that would be a great exposure for you right out of the bat. I've seen some of these cohorts, they've. They pay much more than what I used to get as when I was a person of sdr, maybe even double.

What I wanted to understand is, and this is something again, I have had a mixed opinion of people whom I've interviewed in the past from these cohorts, which kind of trains you on the sales training. I think the ground reality is missing. While you get a lot of theory and while I can understand, for example, if you would probably attend this, it'll make a lot of sense for you because you already have that mindset. Somebody who is just a graduate, 21, 22 years old, right? No idea about life, no idea about having anything much in life if they were to attend this, for them, it's a theory dump. Because what I've seen is no, no cold calling experience. And at the same time I've seen again, I'm going to go back to the previous statement which you made, that a lot of these people, for example, might not even have the cold calling experience. So while they have a business sense, no doubt about it, while they have a complete sense on running these cohorts, maybe even a training background, I have no doubts about it. But then comes the question of once these people are ready and these are certified, hey, you're a certified graduate, now go and sell. Can these people perform the same way or not?

So that's where the gap comes here again, right? So this, these cohorts are start.

Correct.

The problem is now if There is a B2B company that is promising B2C people or graduates that hey, come to our company, we are hiring non B2B folks. They might not train you the same way. They might not have the time to train you the same way. I'm not saying all companies might not. I have seen situations where companies have hired people from B2C, no training given. They are expected to perform. They don't. During probation, there's.

You can leave. See the problem, the solution which you suggested definitely solves some part of it. And I'll probably talk about why it doesn't solve the whole problem. It's leading to a bigger problem which is the same problem which we had probably in my prime years which will be on the lines of do an MBA. An MBA college is now promising you jobs worth 50 lakhs, 101 crore or whatever. If these cohorts start promising the same thing without realizing the ground reality or without making people the ground understand the reality, we are leading to more problem. We are leading. We are actually forcing people to do a course and then be even more unsatisfied and then talk about, go in the market and talk about how sales is such, such a job. Right?

Yeah.

While it's gonna solve the problem, again it's the same thing which started to raise funding quickly and eventually get out of it. Cohorts probably might solve that problem. What do you think about. Let's say what if, I mean, it's just a question. What if there was a school for one year where you get enrolled just like after graduation or maybe instead of graduation. Yeah. You get trained on sales. Like you go to the regular classes. You have these cold calling classes. Imagine somebody who's in the first three months getting trained by Dave versus somebody who's probably in their primary getting trained by somebody senior. Yeah. Like one year of sales.

So in terms of that. So who would. Is it like mock calls, mock emails, everything.

Everything. Not just an sdr. It could be preparing you, let's say graduating you from SDR to ae. So there could be different schools. And like I said, this is just a thought. I'm sure some startup would probably come come up with an idea.

But yeah, that is a good gap to fill by the way. I've already seen that gap in training and again, touchwood, hopefully I put something in there. I've seen these courses as well. I don't know, I have not attended them as such. There are a lot of cohorts, especially in the US right now that you know JD sales and they're things. But in terms of that, again, this is a personal opinion. I don't know if this is right.

Sure.

But I feel if a person goes into a company and is trained and that's the issue. Right. They're not trained on selling the product that they're selling in the company now, sales taxi tactics can Be generic if you're in a, in this kind of, this thing. But the training that you need is where, how to sell this product, how to handle these, this product's objections. So in one year if you can, you will have to kind of teach them about hey, this is what a CS person's priorities might be. This might be, this is what a salesperson's priority might be because you don't know what their next company is going to be if you teach them a generic thing. Again, it's. You don't know the likelihood of what's going to happen when they. Sure.

So of course that is where accountability from both sides would come into picture. Where let's say. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you the problem statement, I'll tell you the overall picture. So imagine an SDR who goes through a cohort. Okay. Might or might not turn out to be both the sides. I've seen some. Somebody who's great. They did not even need the cohort. They could have actually been selected anyways.

Yeah.

But they needed some validation or stamp or some sort of knowledge which they got it and through. Through the easy way or whatever. Yeah. Now they would. There were people who thought sales is lucrative. They probably they heard somebody making that kind of money. Yeah. They saw this was the way. Now I see they're unemployed and they will probably never get the job because they were never fit in the first place. Now while half of the training part is done, I think second part could be done when the training, when the companies are taking the responsibility. While you're saying these cohorts would probably take the responsibility, trust me, nobody would. They won't. Yeah, nobody would. Yeah. At the end of the day they all have to make money. They get money when they get. They place somebody.

Yeah.

I'm sure there must be some sort of vetting process but we can't always rely on that.

So it's interesting that you mentioned that I generally. That is very interesting point. So I've only but effort people who are trying to break into B2B to cohorts.

Right.

So that they actually get to break into B2B.

Right.

It's more like a gateway for them. Maybe they don't learn anything, maybe they don't get the proper training they need. But they are breaking into the industry. They're getting that break. So these cohorts might have some partnership companies who are maybe low level startups. They have this thing. So once this if and if they spend that one year in that startup, they Might be like, oh, you worked in B2B sales for one year. So the supply and demand, again, it comes back to that. Right. The supply and demand of SDRs is so high that they might actually hire you because that is a better bet they can take.

See, again, I'm going to come back to the same point. While it's solving your one problem, it's actually leading to 10 others. I mean, SDR wants to get it so bad into B2B CSAs. I have no experience, no connection whatsoever. I go to this cohort, I get a 5 lakhs job. Okay. Tomorrow, the moment I see a 7 or 10 lakhs job, I'm going to leave it. The credibility of cohort is gone. The credibility of that company towards that cohort is gone. Then CEOs start, start talking about how SDRs are actually not. Do not want to stay in one company.

Yeah.

Again, the problems are endless.

Yeah.

So while we're solving for one, we're not looking into others. That said.

Yeah.

But by. Well, what you're thinking from your point of view is correct. I'm not denying it. I'm just telling you from a completely leadership point of view. All right, I think the last question I have for you is three things you wish you knew before you became an sdr.

Okay, so this is. Honestly, I would just recommend one thing that everyone should have is the emotional detachment from your outcome. So I've seen SDRs going on their calls or going on emails, like reaching out to people. The minute they reach their KPI for the day, they're out. So the thing is, you can always be emotionally be like, oh, okay, I'm done for the day. Or you can be like, and if you make 80 calls in one day, which is 20 more than what you do and you don't get any meeting, you'd be like, just, I don't think I'm set for the job. So that emotional detachment from the outcome is something that is very tough to learn at first because you need to know, hey, this process is set for me. Maybe I made 80 calls today and it didn't work out. Maybe tomorrow I'll make 30 calls and I can book four meetings. So that emotional. Also, if I make 30 calls and I get four meetings, should I stop there? Should I want more from the role? Should I.

Lucky days.

Exactly. So never leave the poke table on a hot street.

Yeah.

So always be like, okay, I want my Commission. I want 200 of my commission. So emotional detachment, outcome, and be like, okay, I'm gonna Make more calls. Now I'm in the form I want to do that. That is a great thing to have in SCR because it always sets you up for success. And yeah, I think that would be. And one thing would be like, hey, always try to keep upskilling yourself.

Right.

In the first few, maybe four or five months of my career, I would never miss a single JB sales webinar. I would never miss a single Jason B webinar. And I would always be taking notes and understanding how they are selling. And SDR is a role that if you show your potential in six months or one year, it will be validated by the market. You don't have to be like, oh, you need two years of experience to be a rock star. And I know like on the all job titles you'll be like, hey, two years of experience needed. But if you can show it in six months, they will hire you. So again, always keep yourself up upskilled. Always keep a time block on your calendar. Hey, this is. Even if it's a pre. Even it's a recorded webinar that you have to rewatch.

Just do it. Okay. Any final thoughts for the people who have been impacted by the layoffs?

Yeah. So again, like before the layoffs happen itself, I've had a fair share of layoffs.

Right.

So literally December of last year, I still remember, like I, I got laid off and I came to your event and it was great, Right? So if you're, if you believe that you're a doctor. Exactly. And I got the pay range I want to because you told me what the ideal pay range should be. So one thing I would recommend is talk to more people. Try to upskill yourself during this time when you're looking out for a job. Because this is a good free time that you get because you don't have to work for eight, eight hours. You get eight hours of learning that you can do right now. And if you do that learning, you go to events and you actually get a chance to talk leaders. So again, I'm gonna give you a very different example over here of Remy's, okay? Like last year, okay, I just gotten laid off from my job. I was only in the previous company for one month, this company, for two months, okay. And that's like a huge red flag for any leader. They would not even bat their eyes at me. And I was like, I'm done. Like, I'm going for masters or I'm gonna go back to engineering. And my dad kept calling me. He's just come back so I'm just. I was just like, listen, I'll just go for this event. If nothing works out, I will come back and take any engineering job. The day before the event happened, I fractured my leg. I still remember the shock in people's eyes when I was just limping. They're like, are you okay? I was like, yeah, I'm just here for a job. So that's the thing, right? Like, when I. So it comes back to, how hungry are you to succeed in this role? So I came to that event in Bangalore. Traffic during rains with a fractured leg. Came out 11 job offers.

Wow. 11 jobs. 11 jobs out of that event. Yeah. You told me one. I should have promoted more.

11 jobs.

Wow.

I still remember. And that, too. Two of them didn't even interview me. They directly told me, this is your joining date. This is your pay. Just join.

Wow.

Yeah. So again, it comes back to how badly do you want to crush it in the role?

So, yeah, true. Man, that is amazing. Yeah. So now I think. I don't think so. You need any validation, and I'm sure you're good to start your own course, like I said.

Yeah, let's hope so. Maybe in the next few months.

Sure. Nice. Awesome. All right, thanks for coming to the show again.

Awesome.

It's the Salesman podcast. You are listening to Sales spin, India's top B2B sales podcast, where we bring the world's best sales experts, successful sellers, and sales leaders who share their strategies to succeed in sales right now and talk about things no one else will.