Full Episode- How to be in the top 1 percent in sales?

Today's guest is Patrick Joyce. If you are in sales, sales development, you don't know him. I feel sorry for you because you're missing a lot. A teacher tone salesperson. This guy is like creme de la creme of sales development. Like, 1% of the top 1% top companies want him to consult today. Whenever I see him, he's just giving without asking anything in return. And maybe that's a reason for his success. My team and I have personally followed his tips and tricks and have gotten results. Let's find out what makes Patrick great at what he does.

Come on.

Patrick. Welcome, Patrick, to the Salespin Show. And I'm really happy to actually have you here and for different reasons. For, like, many reasons. Okay. I think I've been connected with you ever since I think I was connected with Justin. I've been a part of Salesfork. Learned so much from you. I mean, I think I was probably the first one to buy the book, and I followed your strategies. Some of them have worked for me, some of them have not. And I would say maybe. Maybe that's the way I kind of, you know, applied it. For example, Venn diagrams. I'm a big fan of Venn diagrams. In fact, I'm in the process of creating one right now for my current company, and it has kind of worked for my previous one, so. And one of my xrep is a big fan of all the strategies which you have deployed. He has deployed all the strategies, seen success. And at the same time, I think I deployed something of a recent strategy. I can't recall what was that, but definitely worked. And I thought, you know, we should talk, man. I mean, you are. I mean, it goes without saying, I think you are the SDR king, as the world has already crowned you. So we would be more than happy to learn from your strategies. Like, how did. How did you become, like, a superstar?

Oh, my gosh, man, I'm honored. I don't even know how to respond to that. I mean, yeah, I'm honored, honestly. Yeah, I'm flabbergasted because I worked really, really, really hard for a long time before I became an SDR and didn't nearly have as much success over a long period of time as I have in a really short period of time as an SDR. You know, I. October of 2017 is when I took my first job in tech. And, you know, it's been about four years, and it's. You know, the ride that I've been on has been so incredible, like, just unbelievable. So, I mean, it's music to my ears to hear that other people are using. Some of the stuff that I came up with, some of the stuff that Justin came up with that I helped him to, I don't know, get into a format where other people could understand it, other people could. Could absorb it and use. Just makes me really happy to hear that. So I know I didn't. I probably just didn't even answer your question, but I'm sort of, you know, taken back by it. Just. Just because of. Yeah, it's surreal to me.

Yeah. I mean, I was looking at your recent poll as well, which you. Which you started a few days ago, right, where you asked what makes a salesperson successful? You know, and I think most people kind of voted for grit. Do you think that is. That is true for you, or do you think that's something else?

I think when I came up with that poll, what I was really doing was trying to generate discussion. I knew that it would generate discussion, discussion, because to me, it's like I said it in one of the comments. It's really the. The answer that I think of in my head is almost like a bartender recipe, right? It's like you're making a Long island iced tea or something, and you need a little bit of each ingredient. It's like, you know, it's two parts grit, one part empathy, you know, one part, you know, whatever, product knowledge and industry knowledge. And. And I picked those things because on their own, if you were to only say just product knowledge, that that's the key to sales success. That's like the obvious wrong answer. Right. But clearly you need to know something about the product in order to be able to sell it. Right? And then maybe one layer deeper would be industry knowledge. So. So, like, if you have product knowledge, that's great, but if you have industry knowledge, it's actually even stronger. If you have really, really strong industry knowledge, you probably don't need to know much about the product.

Fair enough.

Because if you know the industry, you understand what the other person, what the person on the other end of the line does with their time and how you might be able to impact that. And you can speak to that, and then that makes it easier to sell, it makes it easier to start the conversation. But I think the superpower is really in the empathy piece. Like, grit is one of those things that it's an intangible. You're going to need grit no matter what career you're in. Right. It's not just specific to sales. If you do Physical labor outside, you have to be really gritty. If you're, I don't know, a finance analyst or something, you know, you work for, like, McKinsey or, you know, you're a gardener or something like that, you're an analyst. Like, you still have to really kind of have that grit to, like, work through things and crunch the numbers and dig deeper and, like, try to understand it. Like, power through things, you know, like overcome objection. You know, not necessarily objections in a sale, but, like, overcome obstacles. Right. You're going to need the grit no matter what. But I think for selling, empathy is really the key. And I think one of the reasons why I was able to do well in sales right away without much of a background is because I was a teacher. And when I was a teacher, that's also the key to the whole thing, is being able to understand what the students are thinking. Right. Because as a subject matter expert, there's so many parallels between teaching and sales. You. You could be the smartest mathematician on the face of the planet, but that doesn't mean that you can teach math. Right. You need to be able to understand what the person that doesn't know how to do the problem is thinking in their head and how to see the classroom from their angle. You really need to be able to do that. Because if you get stuck in the mindset of somebody that knows how to do it, it becomes very, very, very difficult for you to communicate with the rest of the people that don't. It's like you're just not on the same page. And once that happens, it's like you kind of lose the room really quickly. Right? It's like it becomes an us versus them scenario where you're the teacher standing at the front of the room and then Everybody else. There's 30 people that are out there in the crowd, and they're looking at each other like, is this guy with us? Like, does he know what's going on? And it is kind of the same in sales, right? Like, you know the product so well, and you're talking a mile a minute to the prospect. They have no idea what you're talking about. So you have to be able to pause for a minute and think about the world from their perspective. And if you can do that really effectively, it makes it a lot easier to communicate. And then all of a sudden, you know, selling is almost a natural consequence, guiding the buyer through the buying process rather than trying to convince them to do one thing or the other.

Got it. So, Patrick, I do have a follow up question on this. Now I'm actually seeing a trend. A lot of successful people I see are not coming, are not the ones who started their career in sales. They come from like different background altogether. And I can see that's the same case with you as well. Now, a lot of people, let's say, who are out there, people like me, who are not teachers and what you're saying, what being a teacher kind of taught you is immensely valuable. How can you teach that to other people? Is there a way people can learn that on their own?

I don't think that it has to be from teaching. I think for me it came from being a teacher. But I don't think that it has to be. I think that the. If I was to remove all the specifics from the quality that I'm talking about, what it really comes down to is, you know, stepping out of your own point of view and seeing the world from somebody else's angle. That's the overarching principle or skill. Like that's the skill that you really need to be able to do. And you know, you can, you can think about that. Even so I'm not a parent, right. I don't have any children. But those that do, if you do have children, right, you have to be able to see the world from your child's perspective. You have to be able to think about like, you know, like, what is Timmy thinking here? Or you know, what is my child going to do when I put them in this scenario. It's really the same thing. So you can come at it from like many, many different angles. I feel like I don't know if that answered your question or not, but.

No, I'm just trying to like get. Go. Go a little deeper. Okay. So for example, let's assume that, you know, I have no experience in sale. This is my first job. Okay. This is gonna be first job.

Yeah.

And I take your point. And now I understand in order for me to be successful, I have to understand other point, others person's point of view. So that's really good in theory. I'm just trying to understand how can I put that into practical. Practicality, right?

Yeah. How do you action that? Right. Like what is the action plan to accomplish that? And this is. I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you're digging in here because this is a really good point. The number one thing that you can do in my perspective, from my angle, right. Is go and talk to customers. Like marketers do this all the time. They go and they Interview customers and they figure out, like, current customers, not prospects. Now, I mean, people that have already bought the product or service, the last five contracts that closed. And, and you can ask them, you know, what caused you to make a move here? Like, how did you end up deciding that you should invest in this technology or this service? What were you dealing with at the time? What did this make better for you? And why did you decide on this one versus an alternative solution? What were the deciding factors here? And you know, you, if you only ask one customer, you might get something like, oh, well, you know, I had a relationship with Tim and Tim's a really good guy. You know, you'll find stuff like that. But if you keep digging, if you keep asking, you're going to learn a lot about that, that type of customer's world, right? Like, you can even break it down by Persona. You could break it down by, if you're selling to VP of sales, if you're selling to an ops person, if you're selling to a marketing person, all the different stakeholders that are involved in any of those deals, you should go and get an angle from them and get a handful each. And I don't think it's something that people do often enough because that's really the key to the kingdom right there. All of a sudden, if you compile enough of those, you have stuff to bring up in conversation. So let's say I'm selling to. I'm going to use VP of Risk Management. I use this one all the time in interviews because when I, when I was a rep, that's what I was selling to, right? So if I'm selling a VP of Risk Management, you know, or say Chief Security Officer or, you know, the cio, the Chief Information Officer, something like that, all those different types of data people. And I'm, I go And I interview five each, right? So now I've had 15 interviews. You get the CIO, the, you know, whatever, the three titles. Five, five apiece. The next person that I talk to, I'm going to be able to say, yeah, I was talking to the CIO of another one of our customers and he said that this was usually a problem and that's what they were dealing with at the time when we talked about using our product. Is that something that you deal with that is way, way stronger tidbit or a point to bring up in a conversation with the prospects? Because all of a sudden you're, you're an expert, you're an industry expert now. Now you have insight, you've Talked to many other people like them, and all of a sudden it changes. This is how you start to begin the status of trusted advisor. Everybody's trying to get to trusted advisor. Well, how do you do that? First you have to be able to advise. That's the first thing. Right. In order to do that, I have to understand the world. So I mean, that's the first thing that I would do. And if you can't get to the customer themselves, right. Like if, if your scenario is prohibitive and you can't actually get to the customer, go to the account manager, go to the customer success manager, the person that's in charge of managing that relationship with the customer. Go and talk to them, the people that are on your team, and really try to understand the world of, you know, the people that you're selling to.

Now that, that is actually a very valid point. And I'll be very honest, Patrick, I think this is not the first time I've heard about this, but I think I've never acted upon this. Like, I've probably acted upon this. Like, I've read the case studies being, if I'm being honest. Right. And that usually has the, you know, skimmed information. Right. It's like, it's like the crisp form of the five page condense into like one pager or like half pager. Right. So that probably misses the important pieces like you mentioned, right? Like what was going through this person's mind when he was trying to make the purchase. This was a heavy purchase, you know, she invested in what really made him get the budget approved. What were the dependencies? For example, I'll not talk about my product, the one I'm selling. But, but today I read a comment from VP of Sales where he was asking how, you know, and this, this is a big challenge which I got to know today, that how do you ensure your team is not pushing back for this sort of tool? Okay. So that's something which I never, never, never actually thought about it. I mean, this could be a possibility that the end user does not want to use the product. It's VP Sales who's trying to push the product.

Yep.

So that, that is actually, that's actually a good learning. So thank you so much for that. You said you want to talk. Go ahead, please.

Well, I want to make a distinction there too, because you mentioned the case study and there's, to me, there's a big, big, big difference between reading the case study and talking to a customer or to an account manager. And here's the difference is that the case study was created by the marketing team with the intention of convincing somebody else that they should do it too. You know, it's, it's really, it's written with self interest in mind. Okay. And that perspective is dangerous because if you show the prospect that you have your own self interest in your top of mind, all of a sudden you're not trustworthy. You've missed the trusted advisor, Pete. Right. You're sort of walked yourself out of that conversation. But the case study to me is very, very useful, but is useful for one specific element. The one thing that I'm looking for when I read a case study is what were the specific outcomes, like quantifiable outcomes of the project where they signed up. They were able to, you know, generate 30 more leads every, you know, per SDR per quarter. It added up to, you know, X dollars in revenue. Something like that. You know, I'm off the top of my head, some story like that, that's what I'm trying to be able to craft and then that becomes like the punchiest. Like that's the, that's what gets me over the line. Like that's like the meat of, of my messaging when I'm prospecting. But it doesn't end there, right? Like the case study itself only is really for me as the sdr, as the prospector, as the meeting setter is there for me to gather the information. And you're right, I'm looking through this longer form document and I'm like trying to pull like one specific piece of information or even like gather a few of them so that I have different premises that I can try in my sequence. But that doesn't replace going and having a real conversation with five different CROs or five different CIOs, or five different VPs of sales and figure out how come they were able to get the budget and push the docusign through.

Now that is actually totally fair. At the same time, I'm also a big fan of understanding these deeper concepts because I believe a lot of salespeople would kind of agree to it. These deeper concepts really lead to success. For example, in your case, you know, these deeper understanding, finding those small nuggets which other people are missing. Like you said, case study was kind of meant to entice the prospects, entice other customers, you know, so that they can become one. This is kind of a game changer. Now how do you use this information? Okay, now you have spoken to five CIOs, VP sales. How have you were, how are you able to use this information to cut through the noise.

Well, for me, it actually, I kind of backed into the strategy because as I'm. I'm prospecting, I'm holding, I'm having discovery calls, right? So I'm. Now I've gotten some traction. I've gotten the meeting a bunch of times. I've talked to a bunch of VPs of sales or whatever, talk to my target Persona. I just noticed that that was like really handy, dandy to have in my back pocket, to have armed myself with those conversations so that the next time that I'm in that conversation, I have something to pull from. You know, I was like, oh, yeah, I was just talking to, you know, a gentleman from a company that's really similar to yours. You know, he was actually a VP of Risk Management as well. And they had trouble, you know, verifying the information on card applications in new markets where they hadn't done any business yet. You know, if they're going to a new country or something. They didn't have the address information in that area. And that's, you know, that's why they, they came to us. Is that something that you guys have explored or have you run into the same issue as that? It's like I'm just taking whatever scenario seems to match up with the person that I'm talking to and kind of pattern matching it that way. So then, you know, I abstracted the idea and instead of like just doing it during the discovery call, I said, why don't I just start there? You know, why don't I just go right for the, the good stuff first and go talk to people that have already signed with us? You know, instead of waiting until I get a prospect on the phone that, that may or may not want to give me all that information, somebody that already trusts us. You know, we've already got signatures, we've already signed an NDA. You can't give up any, you know, company secret or, you know, proprietary information or anything like that. But, but common scenarios, you know, like problems that they're facing. It's perfectly valid now.

That's definitely great. Could you talk about other strategies? Like how did you come up with those strategies? For example, Venn diagrams for the example. I mean, I thought that was like, that was like a game changer. How did you come up with that?

Well, I didn't. Justin did. And the way that Justin came up with it, you know, he can tell the story better than I can. I forget who he was watching. He was at some kind of a talk or Conference or whatever. There's an auditorium full of people and there was a gentleman up at the front of the room that was an academic, right? He wasn't. If I'm remembering the story, I'm probably butchering the story, but the guy was not really business oriented. It wasn't like a prospecting workshop or anything like that. It was something where the guy at the front of the room was trying to explain a complex topic to a room full of people. And the way that he did that is he had, you know, these, these three categories with the, you know, with the three circles and, and summarize. Like his whole point. He had like this, you know, hundred, like 100 slide presentation. You know, it's just long, all this information. And he like summarized it all in one. And that's when Justin said, like, it just clicked. Like it just, it hit me that I could send one of these in an email and it would, you know, transfer a lot of information just at a glance. So it's like a complex idea that you can tell with visual, which, you know, your brain is going to process 60,000 times faster than it does a paragraph. Right. I mean, if you had to read all the detail about, you know, how these things intersect and this is, goes with this, but this one doesn't fit in there. And then that's usually, it's like, I mean, it's like a word maze. It's like, you know, you're, you're doing some kind of a, like a, a riddle or something to try to figure out what that paragraph says. Whereas with the visual, it just happens like instant speed.

Makes sense. Yeah, totally makes sense because we are always. All the sales leaders are constantly telling reps to make the email shorter, setting a word length. Hey, your email should be less than 100 words, 60 words, 65 words. And still, no matter how our email, no matter how good our email writing is, we're still struggling with that. Because we are still struggling with, hey, how can I put everything what I want to or my messaging in less than 100 words. It doesn't seem to click right. And when you, when you send these images or maybe videos. Right. That kind of does the trick.

Yeah, I'm not as big on the video in the top.

Me neither. Okay.

Now, I love using video in.

The.

Sales funnel 100%, but I like to use it more after I've had a conversation. So let's say you, I cold call you, you know, you pick up the meeting. You know, I get the meeting on the calendar. And then as soon as I hang up the phone, I go, that was a great call. I go and I record myself, my phone and summarize what we just said. It's like, yeah, you know, thanks for taking some time to talk with me today. We said that, you know, you might be able to solve sales coaching, you know, you might be able to solve your lead gen problem through sales coaching. So, you know, we set up some time on Wednesday to talk and here's the main, you know, the main features of what I can offer and then give them a short overview. And this is like, you know, 60 seconds or less. And then I send them that video after we've had the conversation. What you'll notice is that that video will make its way around the company. Like that video will get passed on. Whereas if you just hang up the phone, right, you have the call, you hang up the phone, it's like a fleet moment. It's gonna, I mean it just kind of evaporates into nothing. Whereas if you put the video down, it's like, it's like documenting, you know, it's, it, the, the, the ideas that you talk about become persistence and they, and then they permeate throughout the organization and then all of a sudden other people are interested, right? I mean, so to me, video is extremely powerful. But it's really hard, I think it's really hard to get somebody to pay attention to you when you haven't had any contact yet at all. Right? Like it's hard to get somebody to even read your email, nevermind, watch the video.

Yeah, I totally agree.

I mean, I'm not against it. Some people are better at it, better at it than I am, but that's, that's what's worked for me.

No, no, I totally agree. I think I'm probably the same thought. I've tried. Somebody told me when I started with the video, prospecting hatred. You have to try at least hundred and I have tried more than 200. I haven't had a success. Maybe I was in coach. Well, maybe I was not doing it right. But I think I got better with each video. But still not, not much success. I think I've seen more success with emails, some success with phones, definitely with LinkedIn. I've seen great success with LinkedIn voice notes. So I think, yeah, you're right. I think few people are better at few things. But I like your idea of, you know, the moment you hang up, whether the prospect was interested or not, instead of sending the long email, you send that video. I think that will kind of That'll be kind of a game changer and makes sense.

I also will. I'll even queue up the video on the phone call so, you know, to even accelerate the process. Right. Like, instead of making the prospect wait another week before you're going to end up on their calendar and you do another zoom call and you do the round of intros and this whole thing, it's like, listen, Raoul, I'm going to give you a short demo on, I mean, 60 seconds or less. I'm going to give you a quick run, you know, flyby of what the software looks like. I'll send you that video over email. And all of a sudden, like, it just becomes such a powerful tool that you wouldn't really be able to do otherwise. You know, like, we have the technology. Why not leverage it now?

I think that that is, that is totally cool. I mean, if I'm being honest. Yeah. I've never done that. I've never.

Yeah.

I've never got off the phone with the prospect and said, and this happens a lot. Right. I think my, my teams have been always responsible to set up meeting. These meetings are at least sometimes a lot of times, you know, one week apart. And, and we know the new shows, no shows. Right. Which happens. I think that, that, that's a clear way to engage with the prospect. Tell them you're serious about the game. Tell them, you know what, there's something they have to look up to. And that's why. That's where teasers come into picture. Right. These are, these are like movie trailers.

That's right. That's right. And the other thing is that it stands out because how many other reps are doing that? Right. I mean, there's nothing.

I've never done it. So that's, that's a clear sign. You were able to.

Evaluating five different vendors, right? Let's say they're evaluating five vendors that do the same thing. One of them sends a video and then the other four don't. Well, you know, which one's top of mind, Right? I mean, you don't get a second.

Chance to make the first impression.

Yeah, yeah. And you can see, you can track the activity on it, right? Like, the videos have tracking on that. You can see how many people watched it, how much of the video they got through, where they dropped off, you know, what part was interesting to them. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's how I like to leverage video.

Awesome. So I'm, I'm almost like halfway through the book. Uh, so I'll not talk about the book. What I want to understand is where do you see sales development is headed? Let's say if people to talk about. And we all know, right. How it has changed since the time you came in, Justin came in, you know, in the last two or three years it has drastically changed the way, for example, when I started as an sdr. So where do you see this will change three or four years from now? You said you want to talk about some career paths.

Yeah. Now I have a really radical kind of. That's what I'm expecting perspective on this. Right. I've got an answer that I don't think that many other people are going to give. But this is honestly where I see it going and I'll tell you why after. But this is what I see. I think that the prospecting role, that the SDR role, sales development is going to become the elite sales position. Right. Like right now, closers get all the glory and, and they get the most resources and they get the most funding. But I think it's almost unanimous across the board. If you ask anybody, if you ask account executives, if you ask sales leaders, if you ask SDRs, what's the most difficult part of the sales process is opening.

Yeah.

So why do the least experienced people with the least amount of resources that get paid the least that, you know, why is it there? Why do we put those people in charge of the most important part of the process that's the most difficult to do? Right. It's the first impression that you make. So in the way that I see this playing out is all of a sudden for one, the structure of the SDR to AE handoff, that ratio. Right. You've got like, sometimes it's even a one to one ratio where you have one SDR setting up meetings for one account executive, or sometimes you have one to two. There's one SDR setting up meetings for two account executives or even in some cases you have two SDRs setting up meetings for one account executive. I've even seen that before. I think that's going to change. For one, the first thing that'll change is that the STR is going to become more powerful with the technology. Meaning the technology is going to advance to the point where If I'm the SDR, I can handle appointments for 10 account executives. Right. I think that that's. We're really close to that. I think that we're really close to that. If we can get the data cleaned up, get the workflows, you know, automate the, even automate the writing of the email. I've seen some crazy stuff with like GPT3. If I didn't have to spend time writing or finding the data or doing all these like, you know, sort of arduous tasks that nobody else feels like doing. If I can, if I can leverage technology to sort of make that a faster process. And then all I'm doing is I'm using my human intuition to try to figure out where's the propensity for the next best account. Right. Like who's likely to close. Right. If those are the decisions that I'm making, I can set up appointments for. I could fill up the calendar to the point where you just have to keep feeding me account executives because I'm going to run out of room. So there's one and then two. I think that when that starts to happen, that the prospecting role is going to turn into like the Navy seal. Like that's something you have to graduate into. That's something you have to earn. You have to earn that spot and it should be highly compensated. And that's, you know, that's upside down compared to what anybody else will tell you. But that's kind of how I see it going.

No, I really like that what you said and I think it makes sense. I'll give you a contrast to what's happening, for example, where I am in India. It's one role which I would say, I think, and I'm pretty sure it's the same probably everywhere else as well. But, but there are not many SDRs in India. Of course, you know, if you compare this to UK or Europe or, you know, us, and I think I was just reading this stat today that There are about 7,000 jobs or job openings available in UK. That would not be the case in India. So there's definitely, there's definitely a problem with the demand and supply here. Okay. And it's still, even, even, even after that, the role is still looked upon, you know, down upon that, hey, it's at the end of the day they are all setting up just appointments. Like you said. At the end of the day, A's closures cannot close, you know, unless they don't have anything on the plate, they don't get the same respect. So I think when you said that, I think I can totally see that happening, especially given what has changed in the last one or two years where there was a time, I remember, you know, one sdr, for example, working with these big companies would set up like eight or ten meetings a month. Now we see that's Happening like once a week. Right. You know, there are SDRs who are setting up 8, 10 meetings a week. Right. So I can totally see that changing. What else do you think will change in the sales development world? I mean, we've already discovered a lot has changed with the, with the, with the, with coming of technology. What else do you see, let's say, changing in the near future? We're not talking about three or four years in the future. Like maybe six months, 12 months.

Yeah. I think very quickly now, the technology is going to start to converge. Meaning, you know, we've got five different tools that are all essential for us, and you have to pay five different vendors and you have to click on five different screens. You're going to start to see those things fold on top of each other. Here's a really good example. If you're, let's say you have the technology to do what we're doing right now, video chat.

Right? Right.

You and I, we're exchanging a video feed back and forth to each other.

Right.

Inherent in that capability, the ability to do asynchronous video. Right. So if I can exchange video with you live and see it in real time, like, isn't the technology that's underlying that me to be able to. Funny enough, there was a problem in my video while I was talking about this. But here's my point. If we can exchange live video back and forth, like, why can't we exchange live video asynchronously? So, like, if I can send this video to you and you can send your video to me and we can watch it at the same time, like, shouldn't I be able to, like, record a video and like, send it to you that way? Right. So there's two different companies, right? You've got Vidyard and you've got Zoom and you're paying two different vendors, but, like, one of them should be able to do the other one. Right. I think that that's, that's going to happen pretty quickly. I mean, that was just. Video is just an example.

No, no, I get that.

I think that we've started.

That we've started seeing those trends already. I think it's a matter of time when that that starts happening. And I think it makes sense as well because, I mean, it's hard for the OPS person to manage. It's hard for a leader, you know, for me to like, evaluate different tools. I would rather evaluate one tool and get done with it. If I'm starting my own SDR team for the first time and I know I need these five tools versus those 15. I would rather buy five and say, you know what, just take the money. Right. It just makes sense if you're saving a lot of time on evaluation, going through the whole process and the docuSign whatnot.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, where I think it comes from is, you know, the Lean Startup. Are you familiar with the Lean Startup, this model of how companies start out? So there's, I think it was a, it was a book called the Lean Startup. And the concept is that in order to go to market successfully, you know, you don't, you don't want to try to do too many things at once. You don't want to try to be a master of all. You want to have the minimum viable product that you can go to the market with that people are going to buy. And it's a good strategy because it simplifies things. You know, it makes it so that you get really, really good at this one area instead of, you know, having your hand in five different things that you're trying to do at the same time. Look, the same thing goes. If you're playing a video, do you play video games at all? Have you ever done like, like a role playing game or something like that?

Yeah, of course I played. I mean, I don't play like normally.

I do, but yeah, you can't level up your magic skills and your fighting skills and your defense skills all at the same time. You just can't do it right. So you get really, really strong in one area. But then the ecosystem that, that creates is you have an assembly of point solutions. You've got a pile of different tools that are all really, really good at their one individual area. Now the ecosystem itself, like just the market will then determine how those things are going to interact together. And then sort of the next generation or the next iteration of what of, of tools that come out are going to have new information about how those things might work together in concert. And then all of a sudden, you know, they'll know what to build, they'll know how to put it together in an efficient way, which probably would have been invisible, you know, before we started with, with the lean startup model. So I think that that's right around the corner. I think that's coming very soon now.

That makes sense. I can, I can totally see that happening, like so many companies. I know. And I'm pretty sure same, same is the case everywhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, what else, you know, I, I had another thought too, and I forget what it was. But, yeah, it just. Just continue on with whatever else you're going to say, and it'll come back. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, for me, the. The path that took me here was basically not recommended. Like, if I had listened to traditional advice, I wouldn't have accomplished the same amount. I wouldn't have learned what I did in a short amount of time. And had I, you know, stayed in the same job for. For two years, like, the advice that you hear when you start in the industry is like, oh, you got to stick it out. You got to put in at least a year or two. You know, you get it. You get a pad, your resume, and you really got to do that. I was unwilling to compromise, so I sort of. I took my first SDR role, and then I kind of outgrew it. And I don't mean that in a. In, you know, anyway, other than the fact that, like, I was doing really well in the role and I wanted more. I wanted to learn more. I wanted to be responsible for more. I didn't want to just be, you know, stuck dialing on the phone and really, like, you know, pigeonholed into one specific task. I'm, like, cleaning data in Salesforce and, like, just sort of. I wanted to grow. I wanted to grow faster. And the company that I was working for, like, they acknowledge that, and they also acknowledge the fact that they didn't really have a spot for me to grow into, so I left. And it was okay to do that. Right. Like, I think that a lot of people get this impression that. That they're trapped. You know, they. I've seen it happen to many of my friends that are, you know, very smart and they're very successful, but they feel trapped, like they're trapped in this role. They're like, oh, I can't leave. It's not going to look good on my resume. My advice to anybody out there that's. That's just starting out is like, please don't listen to that. If it feels like you can expand your horizons and you can learn new skills by going somewhere else, don't worry about your resume. Don't worry about how it looks to other people. Like, just follow what's in your gut. Like, do what you think is, Patrick.

I wish I could, you know, come right there and give you a high five right now. I. I just love what you said right now.

Why. Why is that?

I can. I can totally relate to it. I mean, you haven't seen probably my resume right now. I have changed four jobs in the last 18 months for the same reason. I mean, like, everything what you just said kind of holds true to me. So I can totally relate to it. I am, like, probably the best example. Not the best, but yeah, I'm probably a good example of why not to stick in a company when you're not enjoying it, when you, when you think, you know, you're kind of outgrown, or when you see that, hey, this is not the company. Probably where I can probably stay for like three or four years or maybe even for one year.

Yeah.

I mean, doesn't make sense.

Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanted. That's why I wanted to bring it up on the show, because I think that there needs to be a voice out there that's saying that, that you don't have to stay. I mean, the recruiters would tell you that, you know, you go. You know, your manager will tell you that because they don't want you to leave. They don't have to replace you and train somebody else, but they're going to tell you what's best for them. They're probably never going to tell you what's best for you. Like, you're the one that has to decide that, right? Like, the only person that's going to be looking out for you is you. And you have to make sure that you are. You have to keep your head on a swivel and make sure that you understand that, like the people that are advising you and giving you advice, and I mean, not everybody, not everybody, but allow for the possibility that the HR department is looking out for the company, they're not looking out for you. Their job is to make sure that they can get what the company needs out of you. They're not trying to make sure that the company, you know, does what you need. They're trying to make sure that the opposite is true. So if I had listened to those, to those people that, you know, to those voices that they were telling me that I should stay and that I should, you know, bide my time and, you know, be patient and this, I would have never been able to go from, you know, entry level, first year SDR to I'm consulting international, you know, global firms that, you know, billion dollar firms. I'm on a zoom call with Aaron Ross of predictable revenue and advising. Like, I would have never had the exposure to even be able to speak to the points that I was speaking to on that call had I stayed in the first job. Like, it just, it wouldn't have been possible. So I just I feel like there's. There's a voice that needs to be out there. Look, this is the best piece of advice that I got. If you pull anything from this podcast, it's this. There's three things that matter when you are evaluating a new position, a new role at a new company. Number one is the people. Number two, if you're in sales, it's the product market fit. And then number three is what's the upside? So how much money can you make doing this? Is there stock options? But that's the last thing you should evaluate. Like, salary is important. You should be able to make money. But look, if you have good people and you have good product market fit and you're a salesperson, it should be natural. Like, the product market fit is more important than the perks, than the insurance, than this that, you know, like the kombucha kegs they have and the snacks. It's like these companies have a really funny way, you know, of putting really good snacks out when you go to the, you know, your first screening interview, because they want to give you this impression that it's like this great place to work and you have all these benefits. But, you know, what's the product market fit? Like, is there a demand for. For the, you know, the software that they're selling? Are people buying this thing? Are other reps at the company making money? Like, are people making money here? Right? Are we selling? Are we making commission? You know, that to me is like, you know, way more important than, you know, like an extra 10k on the base salary or like, this benefit or like, oh, this, you know, these guys let dogs in the office. It's like, dude, you're way better. You're way better off. But all that considered, if the people that you're working with are not people that you get along with or that you feel like you can't trust, then it's all for it doesn't matter. You should get out, right? You should turn around and walk away if that part of it isn't right. Because ultimately, the people that already worked it, they're going to make it or break it for you.

No, totally. You know, I can totally relate to all of that. I think I've spoken in the past about what really defines a culture, because I think a lot of people, a lot of youngsters, especially Generation Z, and again, I'm not trying to, like, single them out, but, yeah, I think they have their own priorities. You know, millennials have their own priorities. And I think people, the way people kind of look at the culture, like you said, you know, dogs being allowed, stack, you know, fully loaded pantry. A lot of people kind of pay attention to that. But I think those are the things, you know, which should be common. Right? These are not the things which should help you differentiate or make your decision. I mean, if they give it, great. Otherwise, I'm sure if you're able to make decent money, you can buy that for yourself.

Yeah, yeah, I would rather, I would rather sell something that, you know, the market was ready for, like something that there's demand for or, you know, I would rather, much rather have that and buy my own coffee than, you know, to have free coffee. But then I'm miserable because I'm chasing leads and I can't, you know, I can't get anything to go. And I only say this because I've, I've lived through it. You know, like you said, you had four jobs in 18 months. I think I haven't had a job longer than eight months in the past six years. And, and I, and I've been pretty successful. I mean, it was okay. Like, it, it ended up okay for me, even though I was unwilling to compromise on what my criteria was.

Exactly. Yeah. I think, I'm pretty sure a lot of viewers will be able to get this and I hope they're able to listen to advice which is other than mine. I'm sure that third person's opinion is all this better. So, yeah. Thank you so much, Patrick, for coming on the show and, you know, imparting all the wisdom. I'm sure there's a lot we can talk about, but I think we are on time, so.

Of course. Well, let me, let me get one plug in there. The, there's, there's two events that I'm, I'm helping to organize. The, the, the Sales Success Summit is the first one that's going to be in October. I'm going to be a speaker at the event. And it's in his top 1%. Salespeople, like the top 1 percenters in the industry, they all get together and they're going to share all their insights. So I'm going to be a part of that. You know, literally just like hit me up on LinkedIn. Or you can, you know, my phone number's on there, you can text me, I can help you get tickets to that. And then the other one is the Sales Technology Expo, and that's not going to be until April, but I just, I wanted to plug those two things.

Absolutely, Patrick. I'm going to make sure I'm going to spread the word as much as I can and I'll try to, you know, definitely attend that myself.

Yeah, yeah. Right on. That'd be awesome.

Appreciate your time, Patrick. Thank you so much. Okay. Thanks for watching this video. If you like the video a teeny tiny bit. Would you like the video? Subscribe to the channel and tell me what you like. Throw your best insult at me. If you did not like any part and you would want me to improve, I promise you will not offend me. Seems like too much work, right? Let's start with subscribing and let me know in the comments what I should cover next. Thanks again.