What, Why and How of building internal hiring pipeline?

You know, how do you sort of plan it across functions? How do you continue to give them room of improvement within the role that they have? You need to have those conversations. If the team is that small, you need to have that conversation with the ACR who is aspiring to become an AE and have a candid chart in terms of where they are today, what are things that they need to do over the next six months to reach that point. You have conversations with them while they haven't gone through such situations, but are they observant enough? Have they seen other managers deal with such situations within the org? Have they have taken that learning? So the learning need not come from just their experiences. The learning can come from reading about, you know, such motions, reading about such processes, observing other leaders.

Today's guest is Chaitanya, also known as cj, sales leader from Charge B that became a unicorn not so long ago. He's known for his eye for detail and he's hired over 50 people during his tenure at Chargebee. I could be wrong. Besides creating an amazing culture, Chargebee has done a number of great things, one of which is giving employees a career and not a job. CJ talks about how companies can learn the why, what and how of creating an internal hiring pipeline to retain people and grow them eventually. He doesn't know that yet, but he's the best boss I've ever worked with, so. So if you get a chance to work with him, take it in a heartbeat. I welcome Chaitanya to Salespin. Welcome to the show, cj.

Hey, thanks. Thanks for inviting me.

Absolutely. I mean, I think you were definitely on the list for a long time and I think it was just a matter of time syncing the calendars and here we are. So, cj, thank you so much for agreeing to speak to us at 9:30am this morning. 9:30am Sorry. And the topic today, which we have chosen is a little different than what I have been doing so far. And I think it's very important, and I'm glad you brought this up, that we should discuss this. So you spoke that, you know, we should discuss about building internal sales funnel. Sales hiring funnel. What do you even mean by that?

So I think it's an important area because. So you can call it, you know, building internal sales hiring funnel or you can call it generally, you know, sort of, how do you nurture talent right when. And I've seen you talk about the overall hiring process once you get that site right, once you have the right fit and the right talent join you. Are you offering them a job or can you potentially offer them a career at your company? There is, I'm a very strong believer of the whole value of compounding. So you know, and in today's situation it is a reality where there is, you know, limited quality talent and ton of sort of opportunities within SaaS, a lot of SaaS companies hunting for sort of talent in similar job categories and roles. So there is that situation where you know, people join a company and then leave within the first year or within most people probably within the first two years. And how do you sort of create that value of compounding both for that employee as well as for the org? And how do you ensure that you're giving them a career where they're able to stay within the company, expand in terms of their skill sets and effectiveness and over a period of time then X number of years could be within the same role. Or how do you sort of create that internal funnel wherein there are, you know, different sub functions within sales and there is continuous movement between each of those functions wherein people who spend a certain time in you know, particular roles such as LDR or SDR that given an opportunity to move to another role within the sales hall or even in, in general within the org. So that was my idea. How do you build these internal funnels? Because you've done a difficult job of attracting talent, people join, but they leave pretty early, quickly as well. So you know, how do you sort of build an internal funnel wherein you are continuously giving them this opportunity to grow within the org?

No, that's totally fair. And I think I've been speaking a lot about, you know, attracting the best talent and I think one, one thing which we did not talk about so far is retaining those talent. And I'm a big believer of giving people a career but given my tenure, short tenure in most of companies, I don't think so I've been able to do that like a lot of, in a lot of companies. So what you're saying makes sense but at the same time also understand cj, you come from a large organization where it makes sense for you to think that far. And if let's say any founder or any, any of the early stage company leader is actually watching this, they might or might not be able to relate to the idea. Do you agree or should, should, should they be looking?

So I think this is something that sales leaders or revenue leaders across different stages of company should really be looking at because retaining top talent within the org or within the sales org or revenue or is extremely crucial. Even if you're early stage and the initial team that you're hired, if they stay with you for a period of three years, imagine the value you create together. So irrespective of whether it's a large or where you have more structured teams or not, but are you giving enough opportunities to the people who join? And so I would say it is, it is fairly relevant to leaders across different stages of.

No, no, no, totally, I'm totally with you. I'm just trying to like think it from their point of view whether because for them it's, it's more like attracting talent right now even if they stay most of the founders, most of the leaders at that stage is probably thinking short term that hey, I want to get to the next level, maybe, maybe you know, CDZ with these people and maybe I'll worry about. Obviously I'm not saying that all founders would want that, but that's what I've seen most of the leaders would think. And I think previously we have Talked about how SaaS in India is kind of getting about to boom. And according to a report I remember SaaS in India would probably reach a trillion dollar economy by 2030 and about 75 billion by 2025, which is in the next three, four years. Now there is one thing which you and me both agree that there is definitely a lack of talent and there's definitely a lack of, you know, good training systems and like you said, a good retaining systems. So how do you, how do you go about, you know, retaining those or like you said, building these funnels. How do you go about doing that?

Sure. So I think one, it has to come into the conscious planning process. Right now a lot of focus today is on, and rightly so, on hiring because that remains a, you know, key challenge for most companies across stages. Again, limited quality talent. Again it's a demand supply thing. Of course you over a period of time also build systems internally where you can because you can probably find talent which is not as a direct fit today, but you can groom people over a period of time. Something like companies like Zoho have done exceptionally well in India. So I think the way you start about this is you start having this as part of your conscious planning wherein one, you define certain roles within the sales org and these roles, I mean, you know, sdr, sales manager, irrespective of the or size, there would be certain common goals that would be there and you set certain ground rules in terms of hey, you know, if I'm able to hire somebody today in LDR or SDR role, they do need to spend minimum 12 months or 18 months within a given role because again, they prove their effectiveness in that particular role and then what next, you know, so you, you as a leader, you start planning what next for different sort of functions and stages within an employee sort of life, life cycle with your company. And that, that's where it begins is what I would say. Of course we can go into details of, you know, how do you sort of plan it across functions, how do you continue to give them room of improvement within the role that we have? And this in no way means that everybody needs to move from one role to another within 12 to 18 months because there is value, right? If there is an SDR who's paying two and a half years, the consistency, and if they have been effective over this period of time, there is again that compounding value. They'll be extremely good in their own with probably half the effort that they would put in at, you know, beginning of the, when they joined the company. So there is, there is value of compounding in that sense. And again, if there is an excellent startup segment account executive, there is. Once they have built a funnel over two to three years, though, the ease at which they'll be hitting their month on month quota would be very different. So it doesn't mean that everybody needs to move, but certainly if there should be an option, there should be an option, you know, for them which should be within the org rather than outside of the org. So that the board approach.

No, that totally makes sense, C.J. and since you and me have worked in the past together and I am in touch with a lot of people, I know how a lot of people who started in my team earlier have actually moved down the, you know, a different path altogether, like Surya. And a lot of people have become account executives. So I have no doubt that, you know, this is something which you have kind of already nailed. You know, we kind of already nailed the whole sales hiring funnel like you said. My biggest question is how were you able to do it and why? I see. Because the reason I'm bringing this question now is I am hiring like last week I spoke to 18 SDRs. 18 or about 23 SDRs. Okay. And all the companies talk to all the people. You know, these people come from like well funded companies. None of them have solved this problem.

Sure. So I think it's a lot of these things as leaders falls to very basic principles of hey, you, do you really care? You know, do you really care about the ongoals? Do you really care about the individuals within the team. And once you think from that point of view, you start sort of going one level deeper and planning for them and with them over a period of time. As you did mention, we've been so. I wouldn't say We've done this 100% correctly at Chargep, but there's still work in progress. But there's something which I've seen, again, we've had a lot of LDRs move into SDR roles. SDRs move into AE roles do well. People from individual contributor role move into team lead and manager roles and perform well. And in general, I do see a lot of people who have, over the number of years, sort of evolve within their roles or move to other roles within Chartreuse. And I think that that's been a conscious choice where the next time we have an AE opening, you know, we first offer it internally versus externally or, you know, we sort of split the number of open roles internally and externally. So that, you know, there is, there is of course value of if you're looking to hide an account executive, there's value to look at somebody who's done this work, you know, had the exact same experience and as a SaaS company joined externally. But there's also value of somebody who is an SDR, who has a lot of context about your company, your product, your ecosystem, and has worked in that motion, but you can groom that person into, you know, sort of those, a sales motion, their learning curve on the product and the ecosystem and the environment produces significantly. And we've seen people do well across these functions. Of course, there are challenges that we can further again, talk about in some of these transitions, but the idea is that you consciously keep this track in mind. Where are you one, do you have a path from one role to another? Have you documented that path? Have you shared that path clearly with the team? Second, whenever these opportunities arise, are you actively sharing this internally and externally for people to have a go at it? And then third is you also are conscious of identifying talent. You identify, you know, sort of talent within the team. You look at people who can grow and evolve into different roles. You work with them, you give them opportunities. They work on maybe many initiatives at this point of time, even within the current goal, where they're able to showcase initiatives, they're able to showcase some bit of, you know, team management or team work, and then it becomes easier for them to transition to these roles whenever such opportunities come up.

That is a great point, cj. Now, I think we have established the need of doing this so far, if I were to talk about the next steps and let's say if you were to lay down the steps or let's say process, how would that look like?

So, yeah, I think I briefly touched upon the process. So one would be the ground rules in terms of, you know, who can move between different roles that you have within sales or across different functions. So we've also had people from sales move to partnership. So a couple of people move from an LDR role to partnership and they're doing well. Couple of people move to, you know, customer success team and they're doing well. So you sort of lay out the sort of base groundwork rules and framework in terms of how and when can this be possible? Second is, and some of the companies do it in various forms is a bit of talent mapping. So even within the current roles and it becomes important if you have a really good SDR manager in place and you don't have a backup in terms of a team lead role or somebody who can fill into their shoes just for some reason, if that person leaves, that's a business risk for you, that's the continuity risk for you. So you, you need to have this kind of talent mapping that, hey, if, you know, some of my effective people in the team leave today, you know, who do I have as backup or who can, you know, potentially can we look to groom into such roles over a period of time. And there is this beautiful concept of are you over a period of time becoming redundant in your roles as managers? Right. So are you creating enough backup internally? Wherein if you want to take up a next project, then there is somebody else who can take up that position. And this applies more to sort of management, to management transitions and potentially actively looking to make your own content into the system. But once such approaches, or again, planning comes very consciously into how you plan for your. Just like the way you create a sort of sales plan and hiring plan for next year when you're looking at projections and things like that, I think it's important to also consider for a lot of those open roles, we have the ground rules here. We give those opportunities out and you know, creating a process by which people can apply for those opportunities, we take them through the due process and whoever gets through, we help them succeed in that new role.

That is a good point. Now, I think when you were laying down the whole process, you were talking about the need. I am looking at so many challenges like so on the top of my head, the biggest challenge would be I'm an early stage company I probably have two SDRs and let's say two AES. And one year down the line now I want to add more AES because my business is expanding. But at the same time, let's say my SDRs are not ready to become an AE right now and I don't have the bandwidth, I don't have the resources to train them. And as a business, as a founder, as a leader, it makes sense for me to hire somebody who has done this for a couple of years. He comes in and start producing, you know, start producing results in a couple of months versus taking down the route of where I, out of the two SDRs, I promote one or I start training them to become an AE, which will take a few months. But my business need does not allow that. At the same time, I want to retain the SDR talent as well, because if I don't, the market is such where, you know, somebody else will, you know, take that SDR to their company. That's the biggest thing I can think of right now.

That's a very real challenge. And particularly when there are smaller teams, of course, when, once the team size grows to a certain stage where you have 8 to 10 SDRs, and again, you have sort of 8 to 10 ease, the transition becomes easier because there is an element of de risking that happens once there's a broader phase, I would say, I think a challenge where you need to have those conversations. If the team is that small, you need to have that conversation with the SDR who is aspiring to become an A and have a candid chart in terms of where they are today, what are the things that they need to do over the next six months to reach that point. And again, even if you have open roles today, you might have other open roles six months down the line. So it is very important that you set right expectations with, with the SDR wherein you're not. You're setting them up for success, right? They can get to that role today or they can get to that role six months down the line. But if they're more prepared, once they, you know, get into that role six months down the line, that, that, you know, you are already setting them up for success and you're clearly communicating this to the sdr. And if they understand and they know that you're invested into allowing them to build into other roles for the future, they'll stick, you know, and the idea is if you have two SEOs and two AES, and those two SEOs are not ready to move into an AI role, I would say Okay, I. Extraordinary at this point in time because it does need a certain bandwidth and investment to groom people into these new roles and you want to set them up for success. It becomes again easier once you have like slightly bigger teams and there is an element of de risking in that process.

That is a fair answer. What other challenges can you think of? I mean, I can think of ton, but I would like to rather hear from you.

Sure, sure, sure. So, yeah, I think there are, I would say a couple of key challenges. One would be for, you know, somebody who's an individual contributor for them to move into a management role, particularly if they're doing this for the first time, they're like immense change in the scope of work that they need to be, you know, focused on. So that takes a lot of dedicated effort in grooming them into this kind of a new role wherein they're the. I, I would say that their life changes 360 degrees because, you know, fundamentally from an IC role to a team management role, there are a lot of new things that they need to adapt, learn, apply, execute, fail at, learn again, execute, execute again. So I think that's one of the things where if you're moving somebody from an individual contributor role to a team manager role or you need to have a whole map of things that you need to work with them on and that needs to be something like a six month plan. You sort of, again, we can go into details of what that should be, but it should be an elaborate plan in which they transition into this role. Again, how do you set them up for success? Becomes the, the primary sort of path towards this towards which you sort of plan something like this.

Is it true for other way around as well? C.J. for example, leaders. You have leaders and now you want to transition them to an IC role.

So it, I would say that's more rare. It depends. And it all depends on again what their aspiration looks like. I would say 90% of the times or 95% of the times that it would be the other way around where ICs would want to move to leadership roles. But yeah, if there are leaders who want to move into ic, I think it is about setting the right expectations in terms of what is expected from the new role and how do they get measured in sales? Of course there's a lot of roles easier for us to be able to measure them. If they move out of the sales or, and move into other roles, I think that that becomes a very different conversation. There's, there's another challenge that you know, Again, so if you have a high performing sdr, you know, somebody who's in top three of the team and suddenly he moves to a team of high performing account executives, right? And because they have to learn the process, they're used to being in the top three, suddenly they are number 10 on the leaderboard for the next six months. I think it's important for us to again set that expectation and give them the time to scale. Also sort of motivate them and have them understand that it is a gradual process which is quite a big change. And sort of how do we ensure that they get back into that top three or top five, what are the things that they need to do? Similarly, you know, somebody who's in the startup segment, account executive role, moving into enterprise, right? While AE to AE transition doesn't sound like a lot, but a lot changes, right? If their deals which are closing in 45 days versus deals which are closing in four to six months, very different motions, very, you know, sort of different set of skill set that you need in terms of again working on those teams, working with multiple stakeholders and things like that. So there is this whole transition phase in which there is that risk where a high performing team member suddenly feels himself, you know, on bottom of the leaderboard and their motivation goes for a toss. And again, you need to work with people over a period of time in transitions to make sure that we're setting them up for success. The great thing about this is once this does happen, once there is a template where somebody moved from role A to role B and has done well, that just enormous motivation for everybody who's now joining your team in that role A to see people who have, you know, sort of transitioned and have had successful journeys within different roles within, you know, and they start seeing things differently because it's no longer about, you know, just stopping the charts in the current role that they have, but also about how do I prepare myself for the next role. And you'll see more and more people continue on that kind of path and journey because if they see a career with the org and there are of course multiple dimensions to retention, there is the whole culture piece which is extremely crucial. But once they have that visibility, once they have role models and once they see people do that, it changes their perspective a lot in terms of what they can achieve within your.

That is, I, I can relate to everything you said because I've seen that when working with you. I do have one major question and this is, this is something which I wanted to raise for a long Time I wanted to even in fact wrote. Right. I will post about it, which is I. And this is probably my perspective.

Okay.

I'm very opinionated in this way. And this is something which I learned while doing a leadership training a while ago where the trainer said this and it made sense. You know, most of the times we end up promoting people to team leader role because we think that's the only natural path even they might or might not be fit for the role. I mean, we think, hey, we are doing our due diligence while interviewing them, checking for the leadership skills when they have not done the job at all, when they have never managed people. And we are judging them on different parameters, whatever we have set. Okay, how would. So we are giving them hypothetical situation, right? How would you manage? And this is their perception of, this is their understanding of how they would do it in the future.

Right.

And based on that, we are making the judgment. And most of the time the judgment is just based on because we want to retain people and there's no other way out. We want to pay them more. So instead of that, if I were to let's leave that game, I would rather pay them more without moving them into a leadership role. Because at the end of the day, it's about retaining. And there's a whole perception, right, that if you become a leader, you're more respected versus you being an IC role. And you and me both know the story of even India outside the world us, right? The ICs. ICs are more than leaders.

Right.

So how would you answer to that? I mean, do you, do you agree that's a problem?

So. Yeah, no, I would agree that that is a problem. I would probably call it a challenge rather than a problem because. So even during the interview process, if you are an internal interview, you know, somebody is doing well as an ic, you're trying to look at them as a potential team lead or a potential manager. You, you have conversations with them while they haven't gone through such situation. But are they observant enough? Have they seen other managers deal. Deal with such situations within the os, Right? Have they have taken that learning? So the learning need not come from just their experiences. The learning can come from reading about, you know, such motions, reading about such processes, observing other leaders. And then there is that whole perception of approach, right? What's, what's, what's the right thing to do in a certain situation that that may come naturally to a lot of people. Now it may be a little unfair to judge people moving from an IC Role to a team lead role based on leadership related questions or situation. But then you, you can sense potential based on these things. Are these people observant? Have they, you know, learned from again, observing leaders or reading about these things? Do they have a certain, you know, sort of natural trigger towards what's the right thing to do in a given situation? Right. And if there are people who do show potential on these parameters, they may not be a perfect fit for it. Right? You, you, you, they may not get a nine out of a 10, but you know, there are six out of 10 and you know that, okay, they have that potential where you need to then work with them over the next six months to help them evolve into this team lead role. You of course have specific trainings for them in terms of people management or situational leadership. And then things like that. You sort of map out the skills that they currently have versus what they need in this role and sort of work jointly towards that. You do that. So I would say hired for potential internally, you, you can't have ready people that, that's not fair. And then work with them, enable them to, you know, sort of become what they need to become in that.

No, I can again agree to what you said because I, I like your perspective on what you said. At the same time, I remember when I was at chargebee, I remember even though I was not the first time manager of all the people who were first time manager, they were kind of trained for like a whole week. I know one week training might not be enough, but you know that that whole initiative was, you know, worthy in its file. So. And I see a lot of companies, and the reason I brought that point up is I know a lot of SDRs who recently moved to SDR leadership role. Some of them are great fit, some of them are not. A lot of companies hired as these SDRs because they were experienced and these early stages company, early stage company kind of needed that experience and they kind of put them into the role. Now they are supposed to juggle between lots of things which they have not done before without any training. Do you have any message for maybe the CEOs or the early stage leaders they should definitely pay attention to before.

Giving message to the leaders. I would actually first give a message to the applicant because the grass does seem greener on the outside. You want to move into a management role and you know, it does seem like it's a role that carries a lot of respect. I would say talk to a lot of people who have made the transition, understand from them what it took for them to move from an IP role to a management role. What it took for them to actually succeed in that role. And understand what your current gaps are. Have that discussion during the interview with your leaders in terms of, hey, you know, this is my understanding of what the gaps are or the areas that I need to work on. What are things that you probably think we have to together work on for me to be, you know, successful in the show. So if you have that as part of the initial conversation, you're setting the right, again, sort of framework for you to be working on something like that for the next few months and then, you know, evolving into the person you need to be in that role. And it's important to have that conversation early versus, you know, three months into the role. Things are not working out, you're demotivated, the leadership is not happy, and then you. You, you know, trying to sort of figure out where things went wrong. So I think for the applicants, I think it's important to be ambitious. It's important to look at potential roles that you can look at. But it's really important to have that conversation early and understand what it will take for you to be successful in that role. Talk to a lot of people who have been through the transition. It's not an easy one, as.

You.

Know, sort of understand after having this conversation.

Yeah, I mean, I can totally agree. I mean, when my first leader in sales took me and took a chance on me, I was like, you know, I don't want to become a leader. I mean, I know for multiple reasons, right? I mean, you understand that there's a lot of added responsibility, and you don't want to take that just for the heck of money. So I remember my manager once, he asked me to take on the position. He gave me a week. He said, take a week. Think about it. And I took that whole week. I mean, I did talk to a lot of leaders. I did talk to everyone who I could who kind of made the semiconduction like you said. So I think what you said totally makes sense. I would call this a reality check because at the same time, and at that time, there were not many SDR leaders. So it was even harder for me to find that path. And today there are. There are more examples, but still, you know, not. Not for everybody is what I would say. At the same time, I would add on to one more thing, which I would say, so let's say if you're not able. If you're able to speak to a lot of people, and if you think, hey, you know what, you're not getting enough answers, I would say do like a leadership training or something. You know, I'm sure there are tons of them available for free that will give you like a comprehensive view of what, what is expected of a leader, what are the qualities required, what else can you read? What else can you find out before you actually make that transition? And I would say, you know, if anybody, whoever is watching it, not to make this transition because of money.

No, I agree, I would agree to that 100%. I would just add one more thing on in terms of sort of planning for such transitions. And this would be an advice for other again leaders or sort of more early stage companies and people who are building out their team sales dev and you know, account executive teams and looking to hire their first sales manager or SDR manager. I would say if the team is of a certain size, you know, if you have seven or eight plus team members in the SDI team on account executive team, I would rather probably give preference at this stage to hire somebody extremely who's had experience in team management. Because to expect somebody to suddenly come and manage a team of 10 who hasn't had a lot of team management experience, you may not be sitting them for success. So I would say, situationally take a call on this. You can of course hire somebody as a manager, promote somebody internally as a team lead. So there is value from both sides. You get somebody who's worked on a certain playbook and you know, have managed a larger team. You get somebody into the role who's, you know, who understands the process, the people, the team who's appreciated as somebody, who's a high performer within the team as well. And then you can groom them up for a manager role in the future. So those are, those are ways in which you can plan such transitions a little better. Again, depending on how large your team is or what sort of size and scale of your operation.

Totally, totally. Cj, is there anything else we want to add to the topic or before we move to the rapid fire?

So no, I think it's just, you know, when we discuss, you know, having a sales response conversation. So we of course work together on metrics and process and so there are a lot of things that we could have discussed and you know, how do we sort of build in process efficiency? How do we sort of, you know, scale playbooks and all of that. But I think this was one of the less discussed areas and topics. Again, the idea is because we have focused so much on just Getting the right talent and it's so hard to do. Right. How do you get the talent to join you? Right. I think it's also extremely or equally important in terms of hey, are you giving them a job or are you giving them a career? Right. How do you build these internal funnels? Because I've seen the value of that over the last two, two and a half years at charti where we have had some really great people move to different roles and even within the roles become more effective once you have that kind of approach in place. And I wish a lot of other revolve leaders or same for the leaders. Good luck in terms of planning this and you know, building this out because attracting good talent, retaining good talent, again, equally important.

Yeah. And I totally agree with you because I think every company you go to, no company would say, hey, we want to give you a cardio. Every company would say that. But when you ask them, okay, what's your plan? How do you plan to do that? Right. I'm sure you have the, you have the plan to reach the next revenue range or raise the next funding, but what's your career plan? Do you have this in writing? And I think that that's where chart B has done a great job in putting everything in writing. Hey, once you come, here's the career path going to look like. Here are the examples, here are the people you can talk to.

Right.

So you have that playbook already working for you. So great.

Yeah.

Are you ready for the rapid fire?

Yeah. Let's go.

Okay. You have to start a company today. Choose one person in the whole world as your co founder.

Ah, okay. Iron mark.

I knew that was coming. I seriously knew that was coming. Okay, One piece of advice you would give to your 16 year old self.

Yeah. Okay. I would say stay centered again. There'll be, there'll be ups and downs, you'll see highs and lows and naturally as you do. So if you're able to continuously stay centered where again you learn from the lows and not get too excited about the highs and understand that I talk about this to everybody in the team. A good month in sales is a good month if it's followed by another good month. And you know, you, the, the beauty and the challenge of sales is that things started zero every time. So that, that's the same with life. If you can stay centered and sort of treat, you know, different situations in that way, you'll do well.

Okay, one thing from your bucket list which you know you will never be able to achieve or Never be able to finish.

Okay, interesting. Yeah, probably backpack across the world as a student. That's, that, that's, that's now off of the list. So I, I would. But yeah, I would still travel but probably in a different mode and a manner today. So, so that, that was something, you know, again in my student days, but I probably don't think I would do that now.

Okay. Your one addiction that you cannot get rid of.

Ah, okay. I, I would say music and music of a certain kind because that's something which, you know, I, it gets stuck in my head for days and I'm somebody who, if I like a particular track or these days more of Indian classical music and instrumental music, I would just play that for, you know, a thousand times or next sort of few days. I would play that daily. And yeah, it would just, you know, sort of be something that I'm addicted to for a long period of time. So I would call that awesome.

Last one, your one accomplishment you're super proud of.

So I would say enabling people. When, when I look at, you know, my last sort of 11 plus years in different startups and, and I see the, the people that I work with and I, I see their success, I think that that's, that's something I'm extremely proud of.

I can totally agree. Thank you so much CJ for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

Thanks Rahul. Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. It was fun.

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