111. “We rushed into buying a $730K house. Now I can’t sleep at night”

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We put the offer down in the house and Lula, I woke up the next day and actually for the two weeks before closing, I almost every night I had like panic attacks. So just whoa, yeah, like crazy level of anxiety. I think the psychological, like burden of death for me, I know I felt it like in my body, like in a very, very real way.

We weren't at the healthiest place. On the other hand, like he had to make a decision, financial decision. So a lot of the conversation we had was, I'm doing this for you, but do you want it?

What was your monthly payment on the place you were renting right before this?

Paying about 1,800 per month for rent. So.

And now what are you paying?

We're paying 4150. When I put my head down my pillow at night, it's like, okay, so even if all the numbers were 5, just seems like there's this huge kind of liability of the house hanging over my head.

I kind of have like this big stir of like, oh, it's fine, like we'll be fine. And the stress is on him because he does everything for Planning and finance and all of that stuff. And I don't. So I live with peace. And he loses his sleep.

Meet Jonathan and Shalom. Jonathan's 31. Shalom is 27, and they've been married for five years. He works in tech as a program manager and she is a nurse, having recently finished her second degree. What we're going to talk about today is how they have started to disagree about money when it comes to their house. They recently bought a house and I want you to hear the way they talk about money and about things like getting a couch, because so many of us will have the exact same conversations at some point in our lives. As always, remember that you can watch this full episode on YouTube, which is quite entertaining to see the facial expressions and body language. All right, let's get to it. Why'd you guys buy this house, by the way? Oh, that's a. I can't wait for this.

I'll let you speak.

They're just laughing.

They'll let me talk.

Yes.

What made us make the leap? Yeah, yeah. So I think, wow, there's a lot.

Of smiles going on right now. Like, what in the hell is happening? Everybody's like, looking down.

I. I was originally super against buying a house. That kind of. I agreed. Let's at least see what's out there. Kind of open minded like you were.

When we first started looking for a house, we did it as a date thing.

Okay, like, like Sunday date. Let's just go see what's around Saturdays.

You know, like, why don't we do open house and see what's like on the market and how much it is and what the process is. Because I don't know how buying a house. My parents don't. Don't own a place or a house, a property in the US So we started tending, like, open houses and that. It just went really fast. And we saw this place and then we had to buy it a week after.

The two of you were like, oh, like, let's go on date night today. What do you want to do? I want to go to ice cream. I want to go to an open house. And then you blink your eyes and you tripped and you fell and you handed over $500,000 or something.

Yes. Almost felt bad.

Like just the most expensive fucking date night in history.

And I think when we had the conversation and this is like, housing is so expensive in Seattle and this was like on the lower house market. And if we ever buy a place and this might be like the lowest price we would get for the place like that for the area we're in. And that was the rationale I had. If we end up having kids that we're going to need a place that's bigger than like just an apartment for freedom too. Like, we both grew up before I came to the US Or Jonathan also grew up with a big backyard and like we had a very good memory just playing outside and running around. For me, I want to be able to do that for the kids we're going to have. And I don't want to like, waste kids in a very, like, apartment. Very tight area. And that's. With that emotion though, like, I think we rushed into, hey, like, we need to get the house and whatever the house, like whatever we can with the budget or with the price that, you know, we can buy it now.

And then I think things. Things go very, very fast. Like you start looking at houses and then you kind of get in negotiations and then things go like, very, very fast. So the house we were looking at, someone else had an offer down. So I think it kind of got like, how can we, you know, when the house. And then the issue is once you put your money down, but big earnest payments.

And what was your first bid for the house?

So our first bid was about originally going for like 700, so.

And what you end up getting it at.

So we. It didn't. We had to counter with the full. The full price was what, 730. I don't think realize just financially and emotionally, just everything that goes into buying.

What do you mean? It's just, you know, you look at the Internet and everybody says you buy a house and then it prints money and then if you don't like it, you just rent it out. And that's how you create generational wealth. What are you telling me? They're not telling you the full story, Jonathan? No.

And, you know, I did, I did run the numbers, as it were. But yeah, I would just say that there's things that, you know, you'll look at a spreadsheet and it works out. The numbers may work, but just kind of the psychological element of being in that much debt and then how there's like fixed costs are not the same thing as, you know, your, your other money just it's required for you every single, every single month.

All of this is hilarious. And I really like Jonathan and Shalom. So we're all having fun. One thing I do want to point out is that offhand comment she made about if we have kids, we're going to need a bigger place and we grew up with a lawn and it has so many good memories. It is no accident that when people go through life changes in America, they all say the same thing. I'd rather have a small wedding and put a down payment on a house or we're having kids so we need a bigger car and a house with a yard. Do you find that interesting? Do you think that every one of us just independently came up with the exact same phrases? Do you think that other people in other countries say the same things? Or do you think there might be a series of organizations who stand to profit from you believing you need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars at a very specific time in your life? Just remember these peculiar beliefs about money pop up in very specific circumstances over and over again. If you decide you want a house with a lawn or a certain type of car, fantastic. If you can afford it, you run the numbers and it's joyful to you. Great. But do not simply slide into someone else's idea of a rich life. Real question for you. Do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and Book this year's appointments today with zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. Instantly click through your options, book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Zoc. Z D O C.com Ramit Zocdoc.com Ramit what comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport? Scheduling a dentist appointment? Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right Bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed. We got to pull all this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend Gilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gelt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With Gelt, you get a proactive year round strategy. Not just a one time filing. Credits, deductions, business structure. It's handled. And their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to G's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation. And as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist. Again, that's joingelt.com ramit join G-E-L-T.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task with Gelt. They can be a tool to build wealth. What was your monthly payment on the place you were renting right before this?

Yeah, that was part of the thing that was really stressful. So we were paying about 1,800 per month for rent, so 1800, but.

And now what are you paying?

We're paying 4,150, which I didn't put on the plan. But next year it's going to be going up 500 and then the year after that it's going up 500.

No, no, that, that can't be. Because everybody tell me that real estate allows you to lock in your price and you never pay more. That's what the Internet told me. And by the way, your utilities cost 400 bucks a month. Right. Let's not forget that. Right. That's kind of a considerable jump. Right? You went from 1800amonth in rent, which was all in. That's how much you paid. That was it to now 4,500 plus assorted phantom costs that haven't even really been added. Let's just say, I don't know, four or five hundred bucks extra a month. Ballpark, that's a huge jump. More than Double.

When I put my head down my pillow at night, it's like, okay, so even if all the numbers work fine, this seems like there's this huge kind of liability of the house hanging over my head. It's just like those things, like, you know, flood, there's mold. I mean, there could be a tornado hits the house. I mean, and it's kind of those things where. Yeah, I just. I feel that. Feel that weight.

Shalom. What happens when your head hits the pillow? Are you thinking about the spreadsheet?

I fall asleep. Oh, no.

So interesting.

I kind of have like this big stir of like, oh, it's fine. Like, we'll be fine. And the stress is on him because he does everything for planning and finance and all of that stuff, and I don't. So I love was peace. And he was.

It's so interesting. I wonder if there are any patterns here. The person who just kind of lapsed into taking care of the money is the one who's consumed with worrying about it, and the one who, you know, goes to work and says, like, oh, I trust him. She's fallen asleep within two seconds. Any patterns here? Anybody? You'll see the pattern.

Yeah, I can see the pattern.

I think mainly in a. Probably a fear side of things. So we put. We put the offer down in the house and lul. I woke up the next day and actually for the two weeks before closing, I. I almost every night I had, like, panic attacks. So just.

Whoa.

Yeah, like crazy level of anxiety. I think it started to kind of the. The psychological, like, burden of. Of debt for me. I. I know I felt it, like, in my body, like in a very, very real way.

We weren't at the healthiest place, both of us. Me, I got attached to the house because we toured so many houses, and this felt like it was the house. And for Jonathan, one hand, when he says no, he felt like he was not doing the right thing for me. On the other hand, like he had to make a decision, financial decision. So a lot of the conversation we had was, I'm doing this for you, but do you want it?

This is the most American story I've ever heard in my life. Two people are just going out for coffee, having a nice walk. They stumble into a Saturday open house, and then they go, you know what? We should do this every Saturday. They do it for months. They get so tired in their ears. Meanwhile, people are chirping, saying, you need to buy a house. You're just throwing money away on rent. Meanwhile, they're looking at prices Going, how are we ever going to afford something like this? Then one of them starts going, well, what about kids? Well, we don't have kids yet. Well, one day we're going to have kids, and then we need to have a yard and a lawn for them. Then the other one starts having panic attacks. Then they start arguing, what about me? What about you? And finally they go, screw it, let's just write a check, I'm done with this. And then seven months later, they end up looking back and going, we're paying more than double what we paid in rent. Okay, look, buying might end up being a good decision for them, but the way they made this decision is fascinating to me. It is exactly what the real estate industry wants people to do.

I never had to live by myself after, so we got married right after graduation. So I never had to experience, even after getting a job, what it means to plan or like, actually like budget. A lot of it has been done by Jonathan and even if our income, like our income is combined, but a lot of it is done by how we budget our life and what we do.

Early on in our relationship, I was kind of the one who just had a little bit more fluency around money, a little more background around money. I probably in the beginning relationship just kind of. I handled things. I wouldn't say I was overly controlling, but just that's kind of the default roles we fell into.

So what is an example of something that you previously were totally aligned on, financially speaking?

Traveling. We do a lot of travel. We've been to a lot of different places. Italy, Mexico, Ethiopia, Sweden. Yeah, we travel quite a bit. So in those areas, we tend to agree on how much we spent and the amount of money we allocate toward those things.

What would be perhaps the most expensive trip that you have taken together?

Europe, Italy and England.

So how did you decide how much to spend? Was that decided ahead of time or was it after the fact that. Talk to me about that.

I'd say we. We kind of went in with the budget. I think we did end up exceeding it a little bit. But yeah, we were pretty careful on how we. How we went forward with spending and so forth.

Who came up with the budget?

That was me.

So I'm going to guess that's a trend, right?

Yes. And it's a reflection I'm actually, like, thinking about right now. We do travel a lot together, but a lot of the budgeting is put by Jonathan and I don't even have to worry about, like, how much we're planning because he Does a lot of the planning, and I kind of, like, trust his planning, and I trust whatever happens afterwards.

So I have a question for you. You said I don't have to worry. I notice you use that word. Worry is thinking about money the same as worrying about it sometimes.

Since we moved in, there's a couple of things that needed to get done. Painting the house and, like, fixing floors and that kind of stuff. And now for me, it's like, let me furn finish the house. But Jonathan has been kind of, like, putting a pause on those things and saying, like, we don't have the budget for that now and we can't do those things. And in my head, the house is empty, so we need to go and, like, actually, like, make it feel like a home.

Is it empty? Like, literally empty?

Not literally, but there are things that are. That should be there that are not. They're not there. Can I see the living room? Okay.

All right, let's get a look here.

House tour.

So this is. How new is this house?

We moved in completely, like, last week.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Pretty new. All right. And you just bought it, is that correct?

Yes. All right, so it's a little messy, but this is what it looks like right now.

All right, hold it right there. Don't move. So we're looking at what is this, your family room?

Yes.

Beautiful living room. And show us what else are we. So you think that's missing, like, a couch?

Yeah, so, like, having a couch would be better to have a couch, but we have another couch that's by the entrance, which is right there. So there's all the paper on the floor. So excuse me for that.

Don't worry.

Jonathan wants that couch to move on that side, and we don't need another couch.

Ah. And is that a source of disagreement with the two of you?

Yes.

Just pan over that way towards the couch, would you? I just want to get a feel for this. All right, thank you. I'm sure there's more, but I think we get the idea.

Yes.

That'S cool. I like that. We just got the home tour. Thank you. This might be the first. Are we the first people to have ever seen your house?

Yeah, I think so.

We haven't had people over yet, so we're probably doing a housewarming party in a week or so.

Love it. All right. All right. Please. Me and just a few million other people who are going to see this. This is great. All right, so you move in about a week ago, and you've been talking about getting new stuff Furnishing it.

I say we should probably get a couch for the living room. And Jonathan responds, you can go ahead and respond.

Yeah, I usually. I usually kind of couch it in terms of like, you know, trying to create a budget for it and then planning for it and distributing that amount we put every month to getting it. So usually I kind of prefer it.

I don't get upset right away, but I try to have, like, rational getting. Like, I try to get rational out of him. So yes, budgeting makes sense, but at the same time, we just moved to a new house and like, after we do the basics, then we can save, like, getting a couch, and then we can put money if we need to do anything else on the house.

So how long do you want to go before you get a couch, Jonathan?

It's a good question.

Probably.

Probably a good year. So I guess I tend to have pretty simple requirements.

That noise was shalom bursting into laughter. Why are you laughing?

Yeah, I'm laughing because it's funny to me. Like, how can you live without a couch for a year?

This is actually pretty interesting. It's funny, but I can also see both sides. Jonathan says we should save for a couch, then buy it. Shalom is like, how long can you live without a couch?

A year.

Remember this detail? Well, this is going to happen pretty soon, right? You're having this get together next.

Exactly.

Oh, wow. The stakes are high. Wait, so what's going to happen right now? If you had people come over tonight, what would they do?

Will you please answer that, Jonathan?

I mean, we do have a nice backyard, so it'd probably be kind of like a long party kind of kind of thing. So standing. Could be standing. Yeah. Or picnic blankets maybe.

So I can't see that.

What does a house mean to you?

As I said, we live in a community. This space provides that, like, home for those people, too. Like, family comes, stays with us. Friends, like traveling, they stay with us. And having that space for me is huge versus, like, oh, just the two of us and yeah, basically like a little shelter.

All right. What does house mean to you, Jonathan?

Yeah, I'd say a house. To Clark, hygiene mean like just renting a house, owning a house, or just house in general.

Your house.

My house. Yeah. I would say that the house is not really a good investment, But I think for me also there's an element of which when I'm kind of done living in a house, you know, I don't. I don't end up in a worse financial situation, even if I'm not Getting great returns on it.

When it comes to house, he does not care. It's not like literally we can live and we lived in a 500 sq ft apartment and that was his idle space to live in. So.

So he doesn't care. But you care.

I care about that kind of stuff. Yeah.

You know, when it comes to the house, there's kind of all these different things around, like remodeling the house. So furniture is kind of the first thing. But we've talked about, had contractors coming into estimates. Sean really wanted to get the kitchen done and turned out it was going to be about 60,000, I think was what we were looking at. For me, that was just like complete shock. I just, I reacted kind of very strongly and said, there's no way, you know, we just put down a huge amount for a house. There's no way we can, you know, we can go ahead and throw more money into the house. I. I'm not sure I'd ever want to spend 60k on the house. I think is kind of where I'm at. It feels like I'm putting all of my, you know, extra cash in something that for me, you know, isn't, I would say, as much part of my rich life. It's more of those things, like experiences and so forth. And kind of one of those things that really triggered it for me or kind of brought on. Brought on everything was we just celebrated our fifth year anniversary and we spent, you know, about a thousand dollars kind of celebrating. And it was a really fun time. But then I remember about a, you know, five years ago when we got married, it was about 15 grand for a wedding. You know, it's pretty, pretty decent. But first day we own the house, we end up remodeling the floors. And we paid the same amount. And so kind of in my mind.

You paid 15k for the floors?

Yep, 15k for the floors. And so for me, kind of, you know, I pay attention to numbers quite a bit, but the amount of, you know, joy and happiness that we had kind of our wedding and how much money we spent, how much we're able to create really wonderful environment, really wonderful experience, and then the satisfaction kind of I got from wood floors, which don't get me wrong, they're great wood floors, but just kind of that, that for me helped kind of clarify, I think, where I see myself wanting to spend money.

Sounds like you got much more enjoyment from 15,000 spent on your wedding than 15,000 spent on floors, Is that right?

That's correct.

All right.

Shalom.

What do you enjoy more? Hold on. What did you enjoy more? Your wedding or the floors?

I think, my gosh, this is so hard. The floor. I think I would choose the floor because we're going to have it for the next 30 years.

All right. I don't even know what to say. Right.

Yes, I loved my wedding, and it is a wedding, and I cherished it. But like the floor, it will last forever. Not forever, Obviously, we're not gonna live here forever, but sound is really stupid.

Okay. I was 100 sure she was gonna say, I love my wedding more than the floor that I walk on with my dirty feet. And Shalom looked me straight in the eye and said, I love this goddamn flooring. I am speechless. This is why I love my job. When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly, and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits and health benefits. Workers comp 401k matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt once more. Gusto.com ramit there's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent. And I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where built comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month. And you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible. So you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, BILT recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026. So stay tuned. Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com Ramit that's J O I N B B.com Ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent.

You where we live. It's actually, it's more expensive mortgage than to rent, so we, we couldn't make the money. It's. I think it's about 3,500 to rent a similar house. So we're already paying kind of more than it would cost to rent.

Can I just articulate that so everybody understands it? So you're telling me to rent a similar square footage, similar bedroom, bathroom in your neighborhood? It's 3, 500.

Correct.

Everybody, listen up and listen closely. It's 3,500 to rent a similar place, and you guys are paying how much per month? All in. All in. How much?

What did you say it would be?

Close to 5 this year?

Yeah, this year it's probably going to be like five. Yeah, maybe five and a half.

Yeah, exactly. 5,500. Conservatively, yes. So just so everybody understands, people go, it's always cheaper to buy. No, it's not. So you, you'd kind of modeled it out in your model, Jonathan, had you calculated that it would cost like 5,500amonth?

No, I think I. The issue is I use kind of these like ballpark numbers, but I didn't actually, like, get the real numbers. And so for me, I think I didn't quite internalize it. Like, I looked up, you know, how much you generally spend on things, but because I was kind of using just general, general numbers, I didn't really personalize it.

I think you're picking like 1% per year for maintenance, that kind of thing. Which is, which kind of explains why this couch has become a central focus. Shalom. Do you see that?

Yes, yes, I do.

It's not just the couch, right? It's like that, that old movie about washing dishes and. Who is it? Rosie Perez. She's like, I don't want you to Wash the dishes. I want you to want to wash the dishes.

I think the house has to do with, like, the quality of life we're living too. Right. We spend so much time in the house. Whatever we buy for the house or we put into the house, we spend in it more than we spent time traveling.

Yeah.

So it's not just a house. It's also our, like, dwelling space.

Would you be willing to spend more on the house if it meant you traveled less?

I think house would come first for me.

Have you ever made these kind of trade offs before with money?

No.

Okay, so if that's the case and your income is sort of combined and he, quote, worries about money and it seems to work for you, then just out of curiosity, why not just let him handle the money for the house? Why is it different for the house?

I think that is what's making this a little hard for us too. We both love to travel. We both try to love to try new things and stuff. I am more into like doing interior stuff and house stuff. And Jonathan dislike or hate that, actually. So I think that's why we're having a lot of disagreements. There's like, we don't have the same value when it comes to home and house, but the rest of our values align when it comes to actually, like, doing stuff together or spending money toward other things.

Jonathan, where'd you grow up?

I grew up on Bainbridge Island. So it's like an island in the Pacific Northwest.

What would you describe your socioeconomic status growing up?

Probably like upper middle class.

Upper middle class. All right. What do you remember your parents? Was it two parents? One parent?

Yeah, it was two parents. You know, my dad kind of in our family, he's the one who kind of handles the spreadsheets. He's got spreadsheet just larger than I can possibly imagine. Horizontal scrolls and vertical scrolls, 100 columns. He's got series records of every penny that goes out of the house. And it's kind of, you know, my mom, you know, she trusts my dad and, you know, he. He tends to do a pretty good job at it. So that's kind of, kind of the rules. So what definitely influenced me.

When did they talk to you about investing? What age?

So investing. I've actually probably got to give you credit for that, I think, even before it comes to investing, aside from saving. I actually came across that idea in your book and sophomore year in college.

So you found that on your own.

Yep.

You don't recall your parents talking about that?

I. No, I mean, I went to my parents afterwards and asked my dad a lot of questions, and he helped a lot. Just kind of filling information.

Your parents pay for college for you?

No, they helped, but I. I paid. Cool.

How'd you do that?

So, you know, I went into a fair bit of debt in college and in sophomore year, I. I read your book. And then kind of after graduating, I lived what is in essentially a closet for, you know, probably a few years.

What was your rent?

What was my rent? I paid $600 out of college.

Cool. Okay. What do you do?

So I'm a. I'm a program manager in tech. Cool.

All right. So your parents were upper middle class. They did talk to you about finances, but not to the level of investing. And you went to school, you sort of sought out your own education, Found my book, et cetera, lived frugally, and then eventually, I'm guessing, increased your income and paid off a bunch of debt, right?

Correct.

All right. Shalom. Tell me about what you remember about money as a kid. Where did you grow up, by the way?

I moved to the US when I was 14, so before that I was in EC. Two parents and two younger siblings.

Got it. Are your parents still abroad?

No, they're in the U.S. they live here in Washington.

Let's start back to when you were in Ethiopia. What do you remember about money back.

Then, culturally, from our member? Like, people don't really talk about money, but I remember, like, my parents would try to invest in, like, real estate. So they would have, like, one home and then they would do another apartment or something to, like, invest or like to put money toward that, potentially rent it. But there was never a conversation with us about, like, how we should save or invest money. But I remember in college, dad. My dad was telling me that, like, I should use money to serve me, not to become a slave office. And in fact, I didn't know anything about stocks or any of that until my brothers reached. One of my. My youngest brother reached high school, and he started putting money towards stock. And I remember, like, coming home, you're about to lose a lot of your money. And he was in high school. He would. He would work, like, part time after school, and he would put his money towards stock. And I thought it was just like some fraud that people hide out there.

All right, and then what happened?

I mean, he is well off now in college. My parents didn't. He didn't take any loans. He paid his college and he buyed. He bought a new brand new car for himself to commute. Yeah, he was very Self sufficient.

All right, great. So when you graduated, how many years ago did you graduate from college?

2017. And then I went back to school again for a different degree.

That's awesome. All right, fantastic. Okay, so that's great to hear. And just so I understand correctly, you both, when you met, which was years, more than five years ago, Jonathan started taking over sort of like day to day, what to do with the money. Is that right? Is that common? Is this a, Is there a cultural thing here? Shalom. Where like you know, where you grew up? No, no, it's not. Okay.

In my household, my mom is the one who managed the money.

Okay.

And she's very much. Yeah, like that. My dad is basically is in my position where mom takes care of everything financially or like manages everything. And he kind of, he knows, but he doesn't really, he. I don't think he has the interest or. I feel like we're on the same page. I am interested to the point that I know where the money is flowing, the money flow is going, but not to the point like I, I want to know exactly what happens month to month. I know it's in a good hand and it's a safe hand in my head.

Okay. With Jonathan. Okay.

Yes.

What does your mom say, by the way, about your money management?

I used to be known in the house for spending a lot of time.

Mm. And now.

And now I think I'm better. And actually they warned Jonathan before we got married that I was very expensive.

And was that like a half joke? Like, hahaha, she's expensive, but also like she likes to spend money.

Yeah. Watch out.

Both, you know, even though they have different views on money, they're both very likable. They're open with how they feel and they're young, so even if they're not totally on the same page, they still have time to get there. Let's see if we can look at the numbers. Can you read off, you know, assets and then tell us the number that's next to it, please?

730,000.

What are these assets that you have?

I don't know. I think it's stocks.

I don't think it's that.

I don't. Car, Property? I don't know. I think it's the house.

Okay, you don't know, that's fine. Investments. What do you see?

90,000.

90,000. All right. Savings, what do you see?

60,000.

And debt?

655,000.

What's that total net worth that you have?

225,000.

All right. Have you Ever seen these numbers before?

Not this part.

All right. The patterns always show up. It takes me a little while, but the patterns always show up, don't they? All right, so I love putting Shalom on the spot when she's never seen these numbers in her life. What do you think about this number 225,000 as your total net worth? Is it good? Is it bad? What do you think?

I mean, it's good. It's a positive number.

Okay.

All right, that's. That's what she's got to say. All right, Positive numbers are good. 225,000. The two of you are pretty young. That seems great to me. And then what's this generosity number?

So generosity. So that's kind of a lump fund that we like to like to keep. So, you know, it could be generosity just with like, let's say we know someone who's in need. Also kind of tithing for church and that sort of thing. Basically whatever costs are important to us.

Your savings is 16%. That's pretty aggressive. Why is your savings so high?

So in general, I hear people say the rule for how much you should budget like monthly for house is like at least 1%.

This really shows you that when you buy a house, not only do you have to pay those expenses up in the fixed costs, but you actually have to start putting a lot of money for future stuff. Yes, maybe future stuff that you know about. Like we want to do the backyard landscaping. Or it may be future stuff that hasn't broken yet, but it will break. Oh, he's looking down and he's putting his head in his hands. What's going on?

You mentioned the landscaping. So that's a whole other whole other topic.

Oh, well, why don't we just get into it right now? You know, I live for this.

Sure. So it was the first day after we put the offer down. I was at kind of a family gathering. And you know, of course the house comes up as, you know, sometimes does. And we mentioned we put an offer down and I showed pictures, right? Like that's the thing you do after you say you bought a house. You people want to see pictures. And so I go around with like Redfin on my phone, just kind of show people pictures. And my brother in law who actually does, you know, does a fair bit of gardening. He used to landscaping back in the day. He looks at the, like the landscaping. He's like, wow, that's gorgeous landscaping. I hope you like landscaping and just kind of give me some background. I'm like, I'm Somebody who loves books. I don't. I don't do anything really, other than I'll mow the lawn. So just when it comes to kind of maintenance, that kind of thing, I didn't realize it until that conversation.

And, like, wait, hold on. Do you like Home Depot?

I absolutely hate Home Depot. So, like, I have a bit of trauma, I think just childhood trauma. My parents would spend, like, hours trying to find, like, a light fixture.

Wait, me too.

Yeah.

I hate this place.

Yeah. And there's like, something like that smell of, like, wood chips and chemicals and.

Wood chips and despair. So your brother in law mentions this to you and then. Yep.

Yeah, so my brother in law mentions landscaping, and he's like, especially the fronts, the shrubs. Like, you have to, like, hire pro to do it. You have to really, you know, go on YouTube and watch videos.

And as people say, I would have taken a. So I would have hired somebody off, like, upwork immediately. Well, not even upwork. I don't even know where you hire people to come to your house, but I would have been like, bring a chainsaw and bring a garbage bag.

Exactly.

Oh, there's 20 bucks.

Someone's batting me.

Be gone in 10 minutes. I don't care how you do it. That's. Did you say that?

I. I actually. So what? I. This is probably one of our biggest fights, actually, with the house. We. We've had some disagreements, but sch. In the background, and I just pulled my brother in law. I'm like, oh, well, I can just. I can, you know, give it a. Give the. The shrubbery a trim. It won't need another one. And, yeah, we'll be gone.

Just done. Functional. Very utilitarian.

Shawn heard, like, chainsaw and, you know, the shrubs, and she got. Let's just say she had a reaction.

Wait, what was your reaction? I'm asking very intently because one day this might happen to me, and I need to know.

Well, it was. Just. Sounded very ignorant. He was telling your people around the party that he's gonna just literally take that thing out when he goes back. And then I'm just hearing that she's like, the lady who was here. She put a lot of work to it. And they're not cheap shrubs. Like, you hold them whatever you want, but they're not cheap trees.

You listen. Keep going. This is so funny.

Yes. So that's what happened.

Like, he wasn't even kidding. He was serious. I'm gonna just.

He was going around saying that.

This is amazing. All right, so are the shrubs still there?

Yes, they are.

And who takes care of these beautiful things?

We're trying to figure that out right now.

Yeah, I don't want to. My generosity money for the shrubs. I, I don't know.

I just love the idea of walking into their house. Jonathan and Shalom are sitting at opposite ends of the table, both of them looking at their phones, so angry with each other. And I'm like, hey guys, it's Ramit Sethi here.

How's it going?

And they totally set aside the years that it took for them to get to know each other, the unlikely journey it took for them to meet each other, to get married, to buy this house. And they just look up and they start cursing about these shrubs. You know what? I have this guide I put together of questions to ask before you buy a house. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to add an extra section on expensive shrubs that can add massive relationship fights. Go ahead. You can find that link right in the show notes. I'm not kidding. Click the link. It's in the show notes. I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out, but for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think out loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean final draft writing inside whatever app you're already using, Email, Slack, Docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows, and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it. Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and and it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple voice to text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flow. Try it for free at Whisperflow AI ramit. That's Whisperflow AI ramit W, I S P R flow AI slash ramit or click the link in the description below. One of my favorite phrases to use in my company is check the box and move on. Just think about all the things that are on your to do list and they've been sitting There for months, sometimes years. Now imagine instead of thinking you need time to get it perfect, you just get it done. It's handled now so you can check the box and move on on. A great example of this is estate planning. A lot of people put this off. What's a trust? Do I need a will? I don't know where to go. But once this is done, there is total peace of mind in knowing that it's handled. That's why I recommend trust and will. There's no scheduling appointments, there's no digging through legal forms. You go online, answer a few questions, and it walks you through everything in less than an hour. My co worker actually recently created a will for her and her family on trust and will. Here's what she told me. Getting started was incredibly easy. I just followed their prompts, provided the info they needed about my beneficiaries, my assets and my preferences. In less than an hour, I had a will, power of attorney, documents, last will and testament, and HIPAA authorizations, all of which I easily downloaded. And I could have them executed or checked by an attorney if I wanted to. Now, I personally used an attorney for my own estate plan, but not everyone has access to a great estate attorney. So if that's you, trust and will is a great option because they make estate planning accessible and affordable. With trust and will, you can create and manage a custom estate plan starting at $199. Let trust and will uncomplicate the process for you. Protect what matters most in minutes@trustandwill.com ramit and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's 10% off and free shipping. @trustand will.com ramit I think it kind.

Of goes back to writing my principle of like putting as much money as possible and creating experiences, everything. And I just for me, you know, it is a small amount of money I could probably compromise. I think for me it's just I kind of feel I'm like already at kind of the top of what I feel comfortable spending for kind of full housing expenses.

What did you just hear?

That he does not want to put more money into the house.

There is a part of that I think I've heard people often say, like, you know, any money you put into the house, you get it back and like the top percent if you're really lucky.

Yeah.

In the right market and everything, you'll get about 80 back on something.

Exactly.

That's like best case. And in my mind maybe this is kind of where I focus too much on spreadsheets. When Someone says, I have an investment for you, and it'll return you 80% of the money you put in it. I don't, you know, I guess I have a hard time go with that.

I. I agree. First, let's just clarify what. What Jonathan is saying, which is that, you know, a lot of people say, like, any money I put into the house basically turns into equity. And so if I paint or if I upgrade the kitchen or whatever for $50,000, and I'm going to be able to sell the house for $50,000 more, which is largely bullshit because most upgrades people make in a house is purely a cost. You're not going to recover much on it. Like, just go look at some people's ghastly kitchens or the window treatments. It's like, I'm not going to pay for your horrible taste. I couldn't care less that you spent 30 grand on that. Too bad. There are a couple renovations in a house that tend to pay a little better. These are all easily googleable. But all that said, we should also remember that you are living in a house with your partner. And this isn't purely a flip, that you're designed to spend as little as possible and squeeze out as much roi. Right. That's different. You're actually living in this house because truthfully, Jonathan, if you wanted to take that approach, and we took it to the logical extreme, you would have old floors, you know, like, you wouldn't do any landscaping because why you're going to make no money on it. Obviously. You live there. You got to do something. Okay, the question is one of degree. How much money are you willing to put in? Shalom. What do you think hearing this?

I think you had a fair point, and that's something I'm struggling with. I think communication is, or clarity is a big thing. And I've been trying to communicate that. Like, yes, I'm. Now I'm understanding, like, the whole idea of, like, it's actually not just a house, it's an investment. But at the same time, it's a place we live in. So it has to be livable for both of us.

Shalom. What happens when Jonathan gets hit by a bus one day?

That's scary. Yeah. I thought about this and we talked about this. When I signed up for retirement, I got angsty because I didn't know what to choose and what to do with all these numbers. And I start losing it, saying that, like, I wish I had this. This much education when I was in high school or, like, the kind of education high School should be giving before we actually, like, become adults. Because now I'm, like, late 20s, then I'm freaking out about, like, signing up for retirement or.

It's so late. You're so late, there's no chance you can catch up. Now 27. Oh, you're. You're. That's it. It's over. You had a chance, but you didn't learn it. So. All right, so anyway, back to my question. What happens if he gets hit by a bus?

I don't know. That's a very good question.

And, Jonathan, do you ever think about that?

Yeah, no, I have thought about that. And one of, kind of one of the things that, you know, I think was really helpful. We almost never talked about money when we were first married. And we've. We've come a long way, but it just seems like because the house is such a big burden that, you know, it's. It's forced us to connect on that. That deeper level. And I think we're still trying to still kind of have those kind of conversations. So. Yeah, yeah.

You know, if you have, like, a bad habit in some part of life, when the stakes get higher, that habit emerges. It's like. Like, I don't know, if you're bowling and you have a certain thing you do when you're bowling, it's fine when you're just playing with your buddies, but if you're playing at the professional level, that's going to get exposed really quickly. And in your case, for the last five years, it's been fine. Your earnings were probably really good. You know, taking a trip for an extra thousand dollars, no big deal. But getting a house is the biggest purchase you ever do. And so any lack of communication, any bad financial habits, such as one partner doing everything and the other not really participating, it gets exposed. And there's a gap that becomes wider between the two of you. Does that feel like it resonates with you?

Yes. Yes, for sure. Like, when we had less to pay for when we first got married again, money was not a thing we talked about. It's just, you know, he made and I made the money. We come together. We've put some for traveling, rent or whatever, and we never kind of discussed, oh, like, we should probably, like, save this master. Like, it just automatically goes to things. But now, because there's this big thing, cold house, and there's a lot of things I want to do with it, I feel like we have more fights when it comes to money, more conversations that we've never had before. And yeah, that's totally right.

Now what do we get? What do we get to do with that money? You're going to set up your monthly meeting, you're going to talk about it. You're going to have a calm way of discussion. Oh, you know what I think? I think we misallocated this. Gosh, this is how I'm feeling. And when I look at this, this is what I think. What do you think? I don't know if I agree, but, like, tell me. You talk about it, you go, ah, okay, I see your point. Let's go ahead and amend it. Done. But you can't live your life playing defense with tiny little decisions like that. Okay? Ironically, for the biggest financial decision of all, the two of you both admitted that you rushed right into it. So there's a pretty fascinating dynamic going on here. I'd rather have you spend more time on the big stuff and less time on the little stuff. Okay? The other dynamic I want to point out is that this is a good start with the csp. It does feel a bit theoretical in the sense that you like Shalom. You don't talk about a csp. You talk about a couch. So, like, this is how I would approach this conversation, Jonathan. I'd be like, okay, shalom. I understand that you want a couch. And what gets you excited about having a couch? Like, why do you want one?

A place to sit, to host.

Okay, but don't we have that little couch by the front door?

Also the aesthetic.

Oh, you want our house to look good. You don't think it looks good right now?

Not yet.

So, like, if we were able to get a couch, how much do you think a couch costs? Like, ballpark.

Let'S say two grand with everything.

Two grand. All right, cool.

Yeah.

Okay, so you want a couch. It would be two grand. And, like, how soon are you thinking you want that couch? When do you want this couch?

I would. I was thinking, like, and maybe the next three months. Okay, but then that's not going to allow us. Right, the budget. So I can wait.

How long can you wait? Because, like, for example, I can wait a year. You can wait a year?

Yeah.

Okay, so that would be like, what? Look at Jonathan's face right now.

The guy's like, I'm impressed.

Shalom's change in perspective about the couch seems small, but I think it's actually a bigger lesson that we can all apply. Most of us go through life seeing something and saying, I want that. I want that coffee, I want that night out with friends, that car that house. But very few of us have a system to help us decide. We basically just buy whatever we see and we use very loose logic to decide if we can afford it. And then we wonder why we're not getting ahead. This way of making decisions stays with us as we become more financially successful. That's why you hear multimillionaires on this show who still agonize over the price of gas or blueberries. It's not because they don't have enough money, it's because they are arbitrarily making decisions. They have no system. With Jonathan and Shalom you see this pattern. Jonathan analyzes purchases. Shalom is much more casual about what she wants, but they haven't developed a way of making financial decisions together. The couch is really just a symptom. It's a small thing, like training wheels, but together they're going to face thousands of decisions about money together. So from my perspective, this is a great opportunity to develop a share shared vision, a shared system. And Just note, about 45 minutes ago Shalom couldn't even believe waiting a year to get a couch. Now she seems much more open to it. Let's hear their follow ups. Jonathan said during the call, I was absolutely shocked that my wife said she would prefer to spend $15,000 on new wood floors than our wedding if she had to pick between the two. One of the biggest takeaways was the value in financial simplicity, which can take a lot of time and effort when there are two people involved with their own dreams and perspectives. Simplicity is not a starting point, but something that is reached through a lot of communication and compromise. Reflecting after the call, what surprised me most was how much time we spend focusing and arguing about small financial decisions like whether to buy a couch or which restaurant to visit and how little time we spend on large, important life changing decisions like buying a house, where to live, travel and our long term savings goals. I'm grateful we had the opportunity to talk with Ramit. It really helped to get another perspective on our relationship with money as well as each other and Shalom's follow up. Unfortunately, we never heard back from Shalom and we tried even as recently as last week to reach her. I'm wishing Jonathan and Shalom the very best going forward. I really enjoyed speaking with both of you and for those of you who enjoy this podcast, I'd like to encourage you to go to iwt.com podcastnewsletter every single week. I share a new insight about money psychology right there on the newsletter. This is material you will never see publicly. It's iwt.com podcast newsletter. Thanks for listening to I will Teach you to be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach youh to Be Rich my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.