130. “I don’t trust him with spending. Do we have a future?”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered, how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question? There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast, although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to Find an Extra Thousand Dollars a Month and how to Do a Rich Life annual review. Plus we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching.

Knowing how much debt Jesse has and how little savings and how little he's put in his Roth over the years, when I see that extra money being spent on things unnecessarily or just what I view as maybe excessive for his situation, it makes me angry.

Angry.

It seems irresponsible. Like I'm just really agitated by it. Scared of not having enough. Scared of. Scared that we're not going to be able to live the life that, you know, we want and do things we want in the future because of where we are now. And I'm also scared that like this might not work. Like we might not work well.

There are other fish in the sea that have a better, you know, they look better on paper than I do. We don't have to be married. Maybe I'm not that person for you that can give you the security that you want.

Meet Alisa and Jesse. Elisa's 38. Jesse's 42. They are married, living in Portland, Oregon with no children. There's two examples I want you to pay attention to right in the beginning of this conversation. The first is a big one. It's a timeshare purchase and I want you to notice the dynamic that happened when they purchased that timeshare. The second example is when they went to dinner, and that's a small example, but I want you to also notice the dynamic there. And as we dig into who they are and how they grew up, you're going to discover some big surprises along the way. Now, before we dive into the episode, let me ask you this. What would you do if you found out that your partner was in a hundred thousand dollars of debt or they told you? I've got a money guy, one who charges 1.25% AUM this Saturday in my newsletter I'm going to break down major financial red flags to look out for in a partner and you can only get it this Saturday, November 18th by making sure you are signed up for free@iwt.com podcastnewsletter and one more thing before we get back to the show, I want to thank all of the couples who have come on this podcast this year. I'm now looking for amazing guests for 2024 and these are couples who are stuck with their finances and are serious about making a change. One thing you may not know is that what you see on this show is only a small portion of the full conversation that I have with my guests. If you are accepted, you get a two to three hour private coaching call with me now. There is no other way to get private coaching except through this podcast. I'm looking for serious applicants who are ready for help. Maybe it means you can't get on the same page with your spending or one of you has tons of debt or you're about to go through a huge life change and you are stuck on how to handle the financial side of it. If that's you, I want to hear from you. Please apply at iwt.com/apply. Now. Let's get to the conversation.

A big thing we did together comes to mind, but it was actually before we were married. It was really stupid.

I already love this.

It was a couple years before we got married and we were on this trip. We got. I found like this killer deal to go to Honolulu and. Long story short, we end up in a timeshare.

I knew it. Okay, go on.

We end up in this timeshare meeting and we were already like no, no, no. We kept saying no. First of all, we didn't even meet the financial requirements to like be in the meeting. Okay, so five hours later we were talked into buying a timeshare. They came up with this biannual plan for us to make it more affordable.

Okay, hold on, I got a few questions. First of all, I just love this already. I just love. And you were not married at the time.

We were not married.

Even better. Amazing. So what timeshare company is this?

Wyndham.

Wyndham. Okay. And what does Wyndham get you with their special timeshares?

Tell me, tell us all with your, with your points. You can go to any other locations all around the world.

Okay.

Because. Because our deed was in Hawaii. That's like the most. One of the most sought after areas. So. And maintenance fees would be low because it's Hawaii.

Hello.

At that time they were like 50 some dollars a month. But that didn't last, you know.

Oh, it went up.

Yeah.

They didn't mention that in the sales pitch. Okay, go on.

And then there's like all sorts of owner perks and discounts you can get. So I don't know how many we did. Like we've done. We did several. We actually no longer have it. We got out of it this year.

How did you do that?

So I know right there was. It was very difficult after many years of trying. But I spoke with someone from the company and asked options about getting out. And they're like, well, you could just give it back and you just, you, you know, it was paid off. We borrowed money from my parents to pay it off.

How much did you borrow?

We borrowed like $12,000.

Okay.

Because the interest rate was wild. So it was like, this is the.

Best story of my life. What was the interest rate?

I think it was like 17.99. What the. And the initial percent? Yeah, the initial purchase was like $16,000 and I had to put 2500 of it on a credit card for like the down payment.

Let me just put things in perspective for people who don't know what 17% means. Okay, let me put it this way. So if you're a very good Investor, like top 10%, you can get 7 to 8% returns in the market. Okay, hold on. I need to take a deep breath. I'm getting really, really angry right now. And it's, it's just. Okay, cool it down. If you could get 17% in the market, you would be one of the best investors in the world, like forever, ever in history. So the fact that Wyndham. You Wyndham. The fact that they're charging 17% interest rates to everyday Americans who they brought into a nice little resort and they what, they give you a free trip for two days, three nights Free breakfast. Yeah, and a free little boat excursion.

There was some goodies there.

You guys know you're supposed to just go and get the free gift and leave, right? That's what you're supposed to do.

We tried. We got so sucked in to the whole.

You know, Americans love to be suckers. They hate the idea of being scammed, but they also love being scammed. Although you two look quite happy in. I think it's because you got out of the timeshare.

We got out of it.

Okay. Freedom has a price. And you know what? That's a very good. Honestly, to get out and even lose money. Fine, Just get out.

Yeah, Jesse told me that was my engagement ring.

Wait a minute. Who was the one who wanted to sign it, by the way? Who wanted to do it more?

I think Elisa did.

I think maybe I did. I think I got, like, emotionally sucked in. And then I was like, oh, what's emotional about it?

Oh, I know they paint the. These sales guys are very good. You could come here and every year you come, and then you have your kids and, blah, blah, your family. Shut up.

Totally. Yeah.

All right, fine. All right. So you got the thing. You got rid of it. Not a great decision, but okay. How long you been married?

We've been married for 10 years.

What was the last time that you disagreed about money? What happened? Paint the picture for me.

We went out to eat, and we don't go out to eat very often. And we were at this Mediterranean place that we liked, and I was like, oh, what are you getting? And he was going to get this entree that was like, $27. I recognize that that's not that much for, like, a meal out, especially in a big city, but at this particular place. I was like, no. I was like, you're gonna get that. I was like, just. That's ridiculous. I was like, that's so expensive for what you're gonna get. You could get this same thing, and it's basically the same meal, and it's like, 17.

All right. So then what happened?

I kind of went on about it, and I kept talking about it, and ultimately then he decided to get the one that he knows that he likes. That's really good that he's had before. That is, like, 17 or $18. And we shared an appetizer, and that was that.

Did you feel good that you won?

Yeah, I felt, like, more relaxed. I was like, oh, okay. It's not gonna, like, spend too much. I just. Yeah, I felt more at ease as a result. Like, my body felt More relaxed. And then I didn't feel concerned about the cost.

Who pays?

I do.

Most of the time. He does. Sometimes I will, you know, or we'll trade off, but.

Okay. Are your finances combined?

No.

No.

Got it. So, Jesse, you're paying out of your money or joint money?

My money.

Okay. Wait, what. Does anyone else find this interesting? Elisa. What?

Yeah.

Can you explain?

Yeah. So what it is for me is knowing how much debt Jesse has and how little savings and how little he's put in his Roth over the years, when I see that extra money being spent on things unnecessarily or just what I view as maybe excessive for his situation, it makes me angry.

Angry?

It seems irresponsible.

Okay, and how does that show up in this case? We saw it show up by. You had him get the ground beef. Where else does that anger show up?

It shows up in other things that he buys, too. Like, I see him buying multiple coffees out a week. I'm like, that money could be, like, redistributed. And so sometimes I end up saying something because it just like, it, like, eats at me.

Eats at you means what?

Like, I'm just really agitated by it.

Because you want him to pay down debt, save more, etc. Okay. That $10 that he saved with the beef, did it go into debt payoff?

I. I don't know. Jesse did it?

No, I think it went into the pint of ice cream he got after.

Okay, so. So this is very interesting. And Jesse, do you agree with the way that Elisa characterized it that, you know, she feels agitated? She. She doesn't agree with your debt and the way that you don't invest as much as she would like, and then she makes comments. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. How long has this been going on?

A number of years, for sure.

At least five years.

You seem worried about money.

I am.

Yeah.

I know it doesn't, like, do anything for me, but.

Well, let's just take it step by step. First we got to know where you are, what's going on, and then we can get to the solution part. Here's what I mean by Americans love to get scammed. They love to buy cars and only look at the monthly payment. In fact, they actually ask the car sales guy for financial advice. Americans love to buy expensive houses without ever understanding how much it costs in total. Again, they only look at the monthly payment. Americans love to buy timeshares and pay 1.25% AUM fees to their financial advisor, which actually cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars, but they don't even want to know how much they're paying. Oh, that's my financial guy. I love that he has his eyes on it and I don't have to worry about it. And yet Americans are obsessed with not being scammed. When they go to a restaurant, they complain about 1% fees for health insurance to the waiters, calling it a scam. They often rant about taxes, saying how they're a scam and if only they got value, they'd be happy to pay. What, while driving on safe roads through clean air to a well maintained national park where they can call the fire department who will arrive in minutes. And finally, when they travel, they obsess about being overcharged $5 for being American. Americans hate being scammed, but they also love being scammed. We'll be back after these messages. Real question for you do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and book this year's appointments today with zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus, Zoc Talk appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. Instantly click through your options, book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Z O C-O C.com Ramit Zocdoc.com Ramit When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to Start your own business instead. You can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly, and it's incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire onboard, and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt once more. Gusto.com ramit now back to the show. Jesse, did you grow up, like, working class?

Yeah. My father was a state trooper and my mother was a dental hygienist.

What. What do you remember about money in your family when you were young, Jesse?

Asking for money from one parent and then that parent saying, go ask your dad, or vice versa. I'd ask my dad for money and be like, what did your mom say? I also remember just working, not for an allowance, but just having to do chores, and then certain times, given money.

And what about your parents when they talked about money? Did you ever hear them talking about money in the family? No, never. How about when it came to things like paying bills, buying a car, eating out? Anything ever come up then regarding money eating out?

It was sparse. This was an extravagance. This was a special event. Yeah, it was mostly dinners at home, and my mother would cook.

Okay, what lessons do you think that you carry with you now as an adult about money that you learned when you were younger?

You can't take it with you. Money is meant to be spent and you're gonna die anyways, so might as well spend it on stuff or spending it on things as things that you love to save. Money means that you're saving for something to spend it on. Like you're saving up for, you know, a new, shiny something, you know, in that way, if you can pay your bills, you're doing all right.

Who told you that one?

I think it was my dad. I remember him saying money comes and goes, and I remember him saying that you can't take it with you.

Powerful phrases. I mean, they really influence someone who's young. We're not born knowing how money works. Something we learn socially. And when you learn it from your dad or your mom, you sort of accept it and then you go 20 years not earning any money of your own until you're, you know, in your teens or early twenties. We don't usually pick up a book and read it. We just lean on those phrases that magically reappear in our head that we heard when we were maybe seven years old. So. Okay, that, that's very helpful. Thank you for taking me back. Elisa, anything surprise you as you hear what Jesse shares about his family history? What do you make of him saying, money comes, money goes?

He said that to me before. He shared that before, so I've definitely heard it. I feel like I've witnessed that in the way, like he is with his money. Like, it comes in and goes out, he gets it, he spends it, you.

Know, like, how does that make you.

Feel at this point? You know, I used to. Not really. I don't think I thought about it much, like years ago or didn't really pay attention to it as much. How does it make me feel?

I guess nervous because the money going part. Yeah, okay, I think I understand. Elisa, how about you? How'd you grow up?

Just probably like middle class, I would say. My family, my dad was mostly in like accounting type work and my mom was like a practical nurse. They were frugal, I would say. We always had everything we need and we were like, comfortable for the most part. One thing that was actually significant, something that I experienced was when I was in sixth grade, so I was 12, and my dad had a really good job and everything and he made the, you know, he was more the breadwinner. He got laid off. And I remember my parents took me out to dinner, just me, to have this conversation with me and tell me what happened and they're like, it's, it's going to be okay, you know, and like, I just, I didn't, I remember being a little scared, but I didn't really, you know, understand it was end up being really stressful in my family because we lived in a really small town and the job options were really slim and my dad couldn't find anything. So just my mom's salary was holding the family together, a family of five, for a period of time. My dad ended up moving four hours away for a job and he, he lived there for two years and we would sometimes go down and visit and there was a lot of stress in our family at that time.

What did you make of it at the time? You know, you're young. What did you make of it back then?

Well, I noticed that certain Things changed. Like, it just didn't seem like. Like it seemed like my parents had to be that more. More. That much more cautious of money and conscious of things. And so it felt like I maybe got told more, not told no more, or had to choose between you can do this activity or this activity, but you can't do both. I felt upset about it because it just. I felt like we weren't as well off and I couldn't do certain things. And. Yeah, just the dynamics of our household felt different. Yeah, it was stressful, and they. It was apparently, like, it was obvious.

Like phone calls, things like that.

Yeah. You know, and then going into, like, middle school and stuff, you know, like, that was a hard. That's a hard age. And I was a total brat and had all this attitude and stuff. So I would sometimes, like, say different things to my mom that I immaturely at the time that I know are really difficult.

And just tell it for all the parents out there. Just tell them what you told. Told your mom. So everybody knows. Let's get a little catharsis.

I would get mad if I couldn't have, like, certain clothes.

Or would you tell her, I hate you, Mom. You're the worst mom.

I would bring up my friends. I'd be like, so and so gets to have all the. You know, like. But she would sometimes kind of, like, lash out in different ways. And, I mean, there was a lot of stress. And then, yeah, there's this. I'm the youngest. You know, I remember sometimes asking for different things, and my mom would be like, well, how are you gonna pay for it?

Oh, wow.

Save your. Save your money. But, like, I didn't. I was a kid, like, we didn't get allowance. We didn't get. So it was like, okay, I'll save my birthday and Christmas money.

Okay, but hold on a second. Hold on a second. Do you think that Jesse's parents ever said that same phrase to him?

Did they ever tell you to save your money, Jesse, if you wanted something?

Not often. Or if they did say it, there was no action behind it because they would either maybe give me the money or I wouldn't get that. I wouldn't get it. So it's only a matter of time where I don't do enough chores or I skip my chores or whatever, and I don't get the thing. You know, I fail and then I choose. It's. It's a matter of choosing not to have that thing or choosing to, you know, really just move on.

Or your parents just got it for.

You or my parents just got it for me. Exactly. Yeah.

Okay. All right, Elisa, how old were you when your parents started saying that to you? Why don't you just save for it?

I mean, I remember them saying that when I was pretty young, like in elementary school. What is that, like 9, 9, 9, 10 years old.

Okay, so that, so basically you've had somebody in the back of your head saying the word saving for about 30 years?

Yeah. Yeah. At least that.

What does that tell you? Let me ask Jesse what that tells him. Jesse, what does that tell you?

It tells me that it's ingrained. It's, it's there. It's. It's part of your programming.

I asked that question because I wanted Elisa to realize how different her upbringing was from Jesse's. If you have parents who have even said the phrase save your money, you're probably further ahead than 50% of people your age. Sometimes I have to make this point explicit because deep down, most of us assume other people were raised the same as we were, with the same values and the same messages, but they weren't. If Jesse has never heard the phrase save your money from his parents, is it any surprise that he sees money different than Elisa does? And tell me about your parents financial situation today.

Yeah, so from what I know, they seem very comfortable. They downsized their home when I was in high school, since I was the last kid in the house. So they're in a condo that's paid off. My mom has a pension. My dad, I think, has a combination of pension for a 1K. And I know he had investments. I always actually remember as a kid, I used to sometimes pretend to be accountant because that's what my dad did when I was a kid. And I would sit at his desk and I remember the envelopes with the Fidelity.

Yeah.

Logo on it. And I mean, like really young. So he's got investments.

Okay, cool. They talk to you about money today?

Not in a productive way. And it's usually coming from my mom. I experience it as a lot of shame about the way we live and how she sees us doing different things, how we don't have. We don't own a home, we don't have assets. And she'll. She wrote in a Christmas card this past year, it was tough because we had had a disagreement about something and she went to. She wrote us a Christmas card, apologizing in it, saying, I'm sorry, but. And the whole but was all about but you don't have assets, you don't have this. You don't have that we really worry about you. And I mean, I just like that I. Yeah, I had to get rid of the card and it really like hurt emotionally. Some of it was concerns I already have. So like it just being mirrored to me in that way was like.

It's like you're already thinking about it all the time. You're talking to Jesse about it all the time. And then to have your mom who obviously loves you and you love her.

Right.

But then to bring that up, particularly in a Christmas card, it's not what you needed. I can understand that.

Yeah.

I'm sorry. What is it about parents writing these insane holiday cards to their kids? In episode 102, you'll remember that Mike's mom wrote him a card which added up all the costs that they were owed through his years in school. To receive a card like that is devastating and it really suggests that Elisa has a very difficult relationship with her mom, which I'm sorry to hear it informs a lot of the way that she feels about money and treats money. There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent. And I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where BILT comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month. And you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible. So you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus BUILT recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026. So stay tuned. Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com Ramit that's J O I N B B.com Ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you. I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out, but for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think out Loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean flow, Final draft, writing inside whatever app you're already using. Email, Slack Docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it. Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple voice to text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flow. Try it for free at Whisper Flow AI slash ramit. That's Whisperflow AI slash ramit W, I, S, P R Flow Flow AI ramit. Or click the link in the description below.

I guess I would add that, like I get scared it's gonna go away. Like there's not gonna be enough.

Tell me more about that.

Well, partly is we're both independent contractors, so it's just working for ourselves with client based work, I guess with the volatility of that. Um, and then also I do believe it's from my upbringing of like when my dad lost that job and then struggled. And then I didn't mention this as part of that story too, but he struggled, you know, once he did get a job and moved away for a period of time, he found a job in my hometown and was able to move back a couple years and that lasted so long. And then they did layoffs, he got laid off again. He tried different things. He worked in like real estate for a hot second. It was just difficult, difficult, him finding something stable. And then he did for a period of time because it was like more pay and he was excited about the opportunity. And I think that's where he wanted to work essentially till he retired and he got laid off. And then at that point he was early 60s and never got hired again. And he got essentially forced into early retirement and he wanted to work till he was like 70. So I saw a lot of like waves.

I would guess that you don't talk about. You don't bring up money with them.

No, because it doesn't go well, it probably. It probably would be better with my dad, but it's also like. I don't know. It's. It's. I find it difficult to talk to him about certain things, too.

Why? Because he's an accountant.

It just can be like.

I mean, I have nothing against accountants. I love them. I'm just saying they're very different than knowing what investments are. Those are two very different skills.

Yeah, I just. I don't know. I. I get. I think I'm. I'm scared of being judged also, anytime questions like this, like, can be so long winded that I get lost. Like, I just. It was too much.

Okay.

Stuff that I, like, can't. Yeah. I like, tune out.

How about your sisters? How are they with money?

My oldest sister seems to be doing really well. I know she's had a, like a 401k with her job that she's been utilizing since her mid-20s. I know this because my parents have spoken about it, how she has a nice chunk of money in savings.

Are your parents Indian? From everything you're saying, I'm like, wait a second. Your parents are leveraging the kids against each other. They're like, this person's so good. I'm like, this sounds very familiar.

But this particular sister is divorced, and when she was married, there was financial difficulties. They never had, like, a savings together and stuff. So she has really. She has a significant savings now. And I've heard my dad say, I'm really proud of that girl. I'm really proud she's got over $30,000 that she's just saved up and blah, blah, blah, and, you know, she has a stable job.

What does that make you think?

That they're not proud of me.

Right. The implication is, like, in order to be. For us to be proud of one of our daughters, they have to have $30,000. And because I don't have 30,000, then, yeah. Not that anyone said that out loud, but it's just. It's there in the air.

Yeah. And she owns a home. She has a home. And.

And have you. I'm sure you have not ever sent him a Zillow link from your neighborhood and been like, look at this. No, you don't do that.

Not in that manner. But I've spoken about, like, the costs out here, so.

So here. So that brings us to where you are today. You do see money very differently. Jesse, any surprises in hearing Elisa share about her upbringing with money?

No. I'm familiar with some of her background and things. The. The one thing I I might add, is that we tend to hide from. We hide things from her parents.

What?

So if we are going on a trip or if we're spending money, we don't tell her parents because of the potential backlash of the Christmas card, of the, you know, the shame that will come along with it.

Have you developed your own unspoken set of rules? Like, if they text you while you're traveling, you don't mention that you're traveling.

Well, even. Yeah, in a sense, even. Like Instagram or Facebook. Like, you have to block your sister and anybody because you don't want to see them, your stories. Because then if we post anything, they'll see your stories and they'll know that you're in Hawaii or you're, you know, wherever.

So what does that feel like for you?

It feels like I'm. I'm lying. I have to lie. I have to. I have to hide. Even from my family, which my family just doesn't care.

Oh, you lie. You. You. You don't tell them because they might tell.

Yeah, I can't. I. Because our family lives in the same town.

Oh, okay.

All right. Small town.

I don't know. I. I mean, it's horrible. You shouldn't have to lie. And we'll fix all this stuff. But it's very quaint, you know, the idea of, like, the whole town's gonna talk about it, this small town. We better hide what we're doing in this big city. I mean, I get it. I totally, deeply understand what's going on. It's not. I'm not making a joke of it, and let's talk about some ways, but I just. It just reminds me so much of my own community. I honestly love when couples create their own rituals for handling family matters, because everyone in an eastern culture, actually, every culture has done the same thing. Maybe it involves tiptoeing around someone who drinks too much or is jealous or always causes a fight at Christmas. What I love is that the ritual is never explicit. It's never actually written down, but it is nonetheless real. First time listeners to this podcast will often say stuff like, who cares what other people think? Just do what you want. But longtime listeners will recognize that the expectations of your community are very real. And in some cases, they're even more powerful than life or death. I mean that explicitly and literally. Just study the psychology of cults, where many people would rather die, again, literally die, than to change their behavior or recognize basic objective facts. The power of psychology is stronger than you can possibly imagine. Now, to summarize what I heard Elisa's dad was forced into early retirement. Her mom shames them for a lack of assets, compares Elisa to her successful sister. And Elisa and Jesse have had to hide things from their parents. Now, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was that in the application. Elisa, have you shared your application with Jesse before?

No. Okay.

By the way, Jesse, I understand that you didn't know that Elisa had applied. Is that right?

No, I didn't know to my knowledge. We were enjoying your podcasts, your, your, Your programming, your books and things of that nature and.

But she didn't tell you? You found out? When?

When she had to tell me because I needed to be there. And when I found out, I, I. Because this was a point of contention in our relationship about communication, I felt like, well, where was the communication on this? You know, we've sat down together and we watched these things together.

Elisa, how come you didn't tell them?

I. So what I remember, I don't, I don't know exactly. I think I was maybe a little nervous because I knew that I initially was feeling, like, emotional when I applied.

I would like to read a little bit of Elisa's application. So Elisa said our relationship feels very financially insecure. I love my husband, but I'm so terrified for our future and feel stress about it nearly every day. It makes me sick to my stomach, and I wonder if it's even possible for us to create wealth together. I often cry, and when I get emotional about it, he tends to withdraw, get defensive and angry. I wonder if it's possible to turn our situation around at this point. Alisa, as you hear your own words that you wrote, what do you think?

It's kind of intense to hear my words back.

Yeah.

Like, I feel teary eyed hearing it, but it also, like, I feel that, like, that's true. I think I'm scared. I. I don't know. I'm. I know I'm scared. Scared of not having enough. Scared that we're not going to be able to live the life that, you know, we want and do things we want in the future because of where we are now. And I'm also scared that, like, this might not work. Like, we might not work.

Yeah. Because it's on your mind. It's one of the primary things you worry about.

Yeah.

Okay.

I often feel then, well, there are other fish in the sea that have a better, you know, they look better on paper than I do. We don't have to be married. Maybe I'm not that person for you. That can give you the security that you want. And I've. I've said that to myself, you know, over the years. And what it's done to me is it's made me not try, not try financially for myself to do better at my own business or rebuild my business after the pandemic kind of tore it apart to really kind of not invest any more of my money, energy, and time.

Here because. Can you finish the sentence for me? You haven't invested. You haven't wanted to.

Because I don't see a future with Elisa and I.

Okay.

And is this a topic that the two of you speak about together in therapy, et cetera?

Yes.

Okay. I'm really glad that they're speaking to a therapist about this because there are obviously some deeply personal issues here. As a reminder, I'm not a therapist, and I encourage lots of my guests to speak to a therapist. One of the things I want to do on this podcast is to demystify and destigmatize, seeking help of all kinds, whether it's a personal trainer, a coach, or a therapist. And one of the reasons that I started this podcast was I wanted people to have a place to get help and to listen to others getting help. Now that help with your money can come in the form of reading an email newsletter, buying a book, listening to a podcast, joining a group of people who are going through similar things you are. It could be hiring a financial advisor or speaking to a therapist. There are so many options on the spectrum of how you can get help, but the important thing is to get help. We'll be right back. What comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport, Scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff, and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second that we get overwhelmed. We got to pull this paperwork, and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend gilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time. Time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. G is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With G, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing. Credits, deductions, business structure it's handled, and their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to Gilt's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation. And as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist. Again, that's joingelt.com ramit join G-E-L-T.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task with Gelt. They can be a tool to build wealth. AI is supposed to make work easier, but now it seems like you have to hire an AI consultant just to figure out which tool handles what. Are you using AI for writing? Or is there another one to use for meetings? What about one for project planning? And they actually don't talk to each other. That's when things start slowing you down instead of helping you move faster. But Notion, the sponsor of this episode, can help solve that. With Notion, everything is in one place. Clean, simple, easy to use. And now with Notion AI built right in, it's even more powerful. Enterprise search can pull answers from tools like email, Jira, even PDFs. Research mode writes full reports in minutes and meeting notes, captures and summarizes everything so key decisions don't get lost. No more bouncing between apps, no more guessing where things live. Just one system that keeps things moving. That's why more than half of Fortune 500 companies use Notion. Try Notion AI, the best AI tool for work. By going to notion.com ramit that's all lowercase. N o t I o n.com/r a m I t notion.com ramit now back to Elisa and Jesse. My focus, of course, in these conversations is on money and money psychology. So let's turn to that. I think probably a lot of your relationship with money's negative.

Yeah.

Going back to childhood, Jesse, I think that your relationship with money, it's actually feels quite effortless. It's like easy come, easy go, and if I have a little bit of extra money, I'm good. Right. And yet. And the two of you are disagreeing a lot and it's coming out for things like a $10 cut of meat. We all know it's not really about that cut of meat.

Right.

It's. It's obviously a different way of looking at the world. What do both of you think the fix is? If there is a fix, I Need.

To make more money.

If you made more, what would change.

The amount of money that I could put into my debt? My debts would go quicker. The amount of money that I would be able to save and put. And show Elisa what's going into the Roth and be able to even come around to the idea of a Solo 401K. I think that would provide the security that Elise is looking for.

How much would you need to have in those accounts in order for her to feel secure.

For, say, like, an emergency savings? It would be, like, around 30 grand.

That's a very poignant number.

Yes.

Are we in the movie Back to the future right now? November 5th, 1955. Keep showing up everywhere. Anyone hearing this? 30 grand. We're probably gonna hear this 20 more times in today's conversation. Okay, so 30 grand. And she. And then she would go from feeling worried and anxious, and she would wake up the next morning, and she would wake up and say, I love money. I feel so good. Is that what would happen?

Yeah, I would hope so.

Okay.

All right, Elisa, what do you think the fix is? If there is a fix, I agree.

With increasing our incomes, it's coming up with a shared vision. What does this look like? And what do we really want together? What do we want to create so we know what we're working toward?

Okay. Is there something here about your family? Probably. Tell me.

Knowing that they're proud would be really nice. I know there's part of me that wants that. I recognize that ultimately, like, I don't. I don't. Do I need other people's validation? No, but it would be really nice. Like, I would consider that. Really. Bonus. Okay. Yeah. To know that they're proud of me. And I guess, like. I guess the word is, like, approve. And I know that sounds ridiculous because I'm a. An adult, but it's just. It's like a wound that's still there, you know?

Your feelings aren't ridiculous. There's nothing ridiculous about it. I don't think if I told you something really intimate and deep that you would tell me it feels ridiculous.

No, I wouldn't.

But you did that to yourself. I don't think there's anything ridiculous about wanting approval from your parents or your family. I think it might be possible. It might not. Who knows? That's something I'm sure you and your therapist can discuss, but I. I can understand it. And I can also understand not wanting to have to tiptoe around and hide as a married couple, to actually be able to say, this is what we're doing, and we're proud of it. We feel good. You don't have to agree, but this is what we've chosen to do. What do you think that would feel like?

Peaceful.

Wow. Jesse, what about for you to be able to not have to tiptoe around on some of those decisions?

I would feel empowered and I feel motivated to continue.

Wow.

Do. To do more, to just be able to be empowered and proud and motivated that this is what we're doing.

All right. I like the two of you a lot. It sure would be a shame for anything to end without having a full, rich set of conversations about money and really giving it your all. Because actually, you know, a lot of stuff can turn overnight. You're both trainers, right? Fitness trainers. Okay, perfect. So take somebody who's like, 48 years old, and they've never done anything fitness related, and they're like, it's not for me. Maybe it's my genetics, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And you go, well, let's take it step by step. And they start, and they have one step forward, two steps back. All that stuff that happens when you start training for the first time, and then they stick with it. And they're not perfect, but they do a better job than they were doing. And suddenly what happens, Jesse? They love it. Yeah.

And then they're motivated.

Yeah. And then the motivation is not coming from their husband or wife or somebody who's telling them, you need the doctor. It's like, oh, no. I actually enjoy this. And they do it for themselves. What a beautiful moment that is. You must have seen it a hundred times with your clients.

That's my favorite part about my job.

Yeah.

I always love working with trainers. To be a trainer, you really, really have to love transformation. That's just part of the journey. That's exactly my relationship with some of the people that I work with. So I have a lot of compassion for where you both are with your money, because I know you've had the same compassion for your clients. Okay. Let's give it a fair shot, and then let the cards fall where they may. Okay. I say we take a look at your numbers. That will help us start to see what's going on here, financially speaking. Okay. What do you say?

Sounds good.

Sounds good. All right.

I vaguely remember studying ancient Egypt and hearing a story about how only certain priests had access to astronomy, which was considered in the mystical realm of the gods. Come to think of it, the same idea is true today with a lot of religions. Now, I might be getting the basic facts wrong with astronomy, but the concept still remains true today that only certain people have access to certain information, which is out of touch of mere mortals. And that is exactly how most people think about money, including Elisa and Jesse. Money feels to most of us like something that others know, but we don't. That some people are just naturally gifted at, or they have access to fancy information because they're fancy Wall street brokers. But everyday people like you and me, we don't get access to that stuff. We don't get access to the secret investments. I have to tell you that I absolutely hate this idea. Yes, money does involve its own language, just like driving a car does. But everybody can learn it. That is the entire purpose of my business, the very reason that I wrote my book and launched all my programs. I want everyday people to take control of their money. But it starts with realizing that money is not some mystical topic that only some small chosen group has access to. It is learning a few new concepts, a few new terms. And once you do, you realize that it's actually quite simple. Now, let's go through their numbers. Their assets are $0. Their investments, 29,500 savings, 22,800. Their debt is $96,000, which includes 71k of Jesse's student loan, 17k of Elisa's student loan, 6,800 of Jesse's credit card debt, and 500 of Elisa's credit card debt. Which brings us to their net worth, which is negative $44,000.

The debt is. Is kind of a debt punch, but that's mostly my student debt. I think the. The savings and the investments. Investments are at least a good starting point. And they're nothing extravagant, they're nothing to write home about. But there's a start.

I. I can't help but point out that was that magic number we all talked about earlier today. What's that number right there next to investments? Elisa, can you say it out loud for everyone?

Yeah. It's almost 30,000.

See, your parents can't be proud of you until you have $30,000 in investments.

So it's like. That was so unconscious, though, like I. Until you're pointing it out like I didn't. I. Yeah. Yeah.

All right.

Pretty interesting. All right. What do you think about the numbers that we just covered, Elisa?

I don't think it's good.

Okay, what would be good?

I would like the net worth to not be negative.

Okay, so zero. You want it to be zero or $1. That's good.

Well, maybe in. Maybe like, at least I don't know where this number comes from. So if you ask me, I don't know, but like, at least 50,000, you know? But I need. I need money for the future. I need a buffer. I need how much. The money that comes to mind is I. Is $5 million.

5 million. Okay, you need 5 million. Okay, great.

And investments.

Yeah, 5 million in investments. Okay. And when do you need this by?

Ideally, when we're like retirement age, whatever we decide that is 65, 70, 65.

So. And what does 5 million represent to you?

Enough.

I have to say I'm obsessed with asking people how much enough is because they always have completely wild answers. People will go their entire lives feeling like they don't have enough. But when I just ask them one question, how much is enough? They'll give me the most random answer. And when I ask, how'd you pick that number? They'll just shrug, keep on munching on their week old apple. It is fascinating. I want to remind you that the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated with the amount you've got in the bank. Elisa could win the lottery tomorrow. She could have $5.1 million in her fidelity account and she would not feel differently about money. Not at all. Not unless she specifically worked on improving the way she talks about money, behaves with money, and therefore feels about money. Go ahead and read off your combined gross monthly income. What do you see here?

$10,394.

Cool. Did you know that the two of you make $124,000 a year?

No.

No, Nobody knows. The fact that roughly 50% of the people I speak to do not know how much income they make on an annual basis is extremely telling. It primarily tells me that most people only think about money in a very myopic and limited way. They think about it on a monthly basis. I get paid per month. I pay my bills per month. And that's it. It's like this is. They've shrunk their field of vision to this. So no wonder they feel stressed. Like a $10 dish should not be causing stress on $125,000 income. But if your field of vision is this small. Of course it is. Elisa, just as a thought experiment, what if your field division was a annual basis, $124,728 per year? How do you think that would change the way you treat money? Look at my hands.

It feels expansive.

Yes.

I guess I just see a lot more possibility. Or I'm like, oh, wow, okay. Like, I feel better about that, knowing that. Yeah, I feel like a more of a sense of security, hopefully.

Elisa and Jesse, showing you that you have $125,000 a year is expensive because it shows you, oh my gosh, we have more than we thought. We have more time. We can make long term decisions. You know, when you look through a telescope and you can only see a tiny little circle and it kind of feels claustrophobic. That's how we treat our money. And the crazy thing is you yourself chose to look at money through that tiny lens of only a monthly basis. How much are we going to have at the end of the month? Oh, my gosh, we don't have enough. How much are we saving? Month, month, month. Just take away the telescope, zoom out, you can feel better and make better decisions. I think about money on a 40 year basis. It feels great. I factor in compounding. I can save and invest and travel, live a rich life. But the important thing is to not narrow your field of vision and only think about money on a monthly basis. That means you look at 12 months. How much are we going to spend on upcoming birthday parties and our anniversary trip? And do we need to fix our car sometime in November? You write these down. You plan ahead. We cover this in my money coaching program@iwt.com moneycoaching where you can do it on your own. All right, let's look at your fixed costs. Elisa, tell me this number here of your joint combined fixed cost number.

72%.

What do you think about that number?

It's too high.

It's too high. Yeah. Jesse, what number should this be?

60.

Yeah. 50 to 60%. So right here tells me why you're all stressing out about ice cream and beef whatever. Like this is it. It's somewhere in here. Okay, how much you charge as a trainer?

$85 per session. 85 per hour.

And Elisa, how much do you charge as a trainer?

That's the same, 85 an hour.

Are you required to both charge that much or is that what you just picked?

That's what we're. That's where I'm at right now. And I also do half hour sessions, so some people pay 45 per. Per half hour.

All right, let's keep looking along here on the csp, we have these debt payments. By the way, Alisa, you have some credit card debt as well, right? What's that debt?

Basically the remainder of a course that I, I did last year that was pretty costly.

What course?

It was a, like a coaching certification that was a year long.

How much did that cost?

Like $11,000. I did a monthly payment plan and I was able to keep up with it for a period of time and then it accumulated more and then I was able to move some money around and like pay a big chunk of it down.

But, like, is this going to make you more than you put in?

More than the investment that I put into could? In theory. It was a lot of really good personal development work that I got out of it, and that was really valuable. And I've. I've noticed how I've been able to integrate it just naturally into some. Into some of my personal training sessions and now how I hold space for people and navigate different things that can come up and then I can do it as a standalone on its own. So I'm at this point now where I'm getting ready to raise my rates also.

What are you going to raise it to?

I was thinking of 90. I don't know if that's high enough.

Look at the look on my face.

Well, I knew I. I knew you were gonna disapprove. I get scared.

Hold on. Just. Just hold on. Just hold on. I know you get scared. I. I know this coaching course is part of a comprehensive thing of your own personal self development. Fine. But how long do you think it will take you to make back the 11, 000 investment if you raise your rates by $5?

A long time. I don't know what the number would.

Be, but $11,000 divided by five is 2200 sessions. I don't even know how to calculate that in terms of how long that will take, but it's too long. Can I first point out the irony of the many people who come on my podcast and have joined other people's $11,000 programs, but have not joined my programs that help them start and grow their business? You know, the ones with over 50,000 customers. Whatever. I get it. I get it. You're taste testing everything out there just so you can try it. And sometimes it costs you $11,000. Whatever. When you're ready for the best, go to iwt.com products. Now, what Elisa would have learned in my earnable program is a concept called My money is good money. If you're charging $85 an hour, then you can charge a hundred dollars. You can even add more value and charge $120. But being hesitant and tentative to raise Your rates by $5, which is literally 6%, means you will find it very hard to grow your business because you are so Focused on what can go wrong instead of falling in love with your clients and thinking about how you can transform their lives. Just as a data point, I pay my own trainer a lot more than $85 an hour. But you're at 72%. That right there is why you all feeling stressed out about. Well, that's one of many reasons you're feeling stressed out about money. Disagreeing. If this were lower, I guarantee you both would have a lot more breathing room and you'd have more money going into savings, which is. It says 3%, $200 a month. Is that even true? Or was that just started like two months ago?

I mean, that's me, like most of the savings. And in the top part, most of that is mine.

Okay, so basically what you're pointing out is that you two make roughly the same amount of money, but you're saving money radically differently. Let's talk about that. Elisa, you are putting aside 300 bucks a month in investments.

Yeah, sometimes more when I can.

All right. And Jesse's putting aside a hundred pretty recently. Okay, Jesse's not saving anything. Elisa, you're saving 200 bucks a month. So what do you. What do you think of this conscious spending plan, Jesse? Looking at it, what does it tell you?

There's zero investments. There's zero. There's no vision. There's no nothing.

Say that. Say that again. Those two words. There's no what?

There's no vision.

There's no vision. There's no vision. The two of you have never really created a joint vision, and therefore, you have a relatively small amount in savings, a relatively small amount in investments. Okay, it's fine. It's fine. It's a great start. No doubt about that. But for where you want to be, it's not. And your investment rate and savings goals are quite modest, you see. Why? Because why would you put money into this black hole that you're never really going to get it out of? At least that's. That's how you might interpret it. You don't even know what it's going in there for. At least. Is that like lighting something for you? As I said, that.

Yeah, it's hard to. Without the. Without the vision. Yeah, it's hard to envision what it's. What it's for.

Yeah, yeah. And then the spending, the credit card debt, all of that. Where do you think that comes from? No vision.

No vision.

Easy come, easy go. Why would you trade off, like a nice dinner out or whatever? What's the alternative? Put the money in a savings Account where it's locked up forever or investments where it's against seemingly a black hole. There's no powerful vision. It's the same as your clients. Why are they going to want to come and train and eat properly with you if there's no vision? Are they going to a high school reunion? Do they have some health related issue? Like what is it? And without that, it's really easy to make alternative choices.

Makes a lot of sense.

A powerful, vivid vision is what is going to get you to be able to make some pretty big changes you might need to make. What do you spend time talking about when it comes to money?

Not having enough.

Yep.

What am I doing to make more? Yeah.

Doesn't feel good, right?

No, it's. It's always stressful and, and Elisa is mentioned in this conversation and to me many times that I, I tend to shut down or I tend to stonewall when we have money conversations. And it's because it's unpleasant.

Yeah. What do you think it would look like if it were pleasant?

It would be, you know, a nicer, casual conversation with this ideal of looking forward to the future rather than cautious.

Okay.

And worried about the future instead of being cautious.

What would it be?

It would be living. It would be enjoyment.

How do you enjoy it if you have credit card debt, $95,000 of debt, et cetera, how do you do that?

There, there are other things that we enjoy that don't require money.

Okay, Love that. And what about the money part?

I think the money part would, would almost. It would come back to what I, you know, some of my core beliefs around money that easy come, easy go, but with a sense of there's going to be enough, there's money on the horizon.

How do you know?

I know because we're in a business where people need what we have. People need the services that we have and the talents that we carry. It's only a matter of reaching those people and continuing to show up and give back to our community.

I believe that. But it sounds like running on this fluffy hope thing that it'll happen without any sort of. It just sounds like. It sounds like some of what I've heard before. We'll be fine. It'll be okay. But without any substance, I guess, like plan.

What do you need, Elisa?

I would love there to be more like specifics, like real action and like a specific plan.

What's an example of that? Because I think Jesse believes he just gave you a plan.

Yeah. To me it feels loose.

Okay.

What, what is an example of what you need.

I don't even know if I know completely. I know it's not that.

You could see how that would be frustrating to Jesse, right? This is tough, huh?

It is hard. No, I know. Like feelings I want to feel, but that's not, you know, that's not a specific plan, so to speak.

In looking back on all of your contentious conversations together, what do you think you have been talking about?

That's a good question. All the worry.

Keep going. Tell me about that.

Yeah, all the worry and things that aren't going well. I recognize where I've also, like, tried to control different things as well. Such as Jesse's spending and, like, at a restaurant, for instance, or. Yeah. The things he buys for himself.

And why do you do that?

Well, I know it, like, gives me a sense of safety, but I know that it's not actually giving me safety, but it's like a sense of it. If I can control that, then maybe I'll feel a little safer, but I know it's not true.

Probably a lot of places in life that you unconsciously do that. I think you're very perceptive that you've tried to control Jesse and his spending and things like that. And maybe Jesse needs to change his spending. Actually, I'm probably sure he does, but I don't. Still don't know what you need. If you find yourself stuck in a pattern of the same conversations over and over, just spinning like Elisa and Jesse are, try asking your partner this. What would you want to see from me? And what would you want to see from us? And you'll probably get a reply with something like, I just want to see a plan. Okay, don't stop there. Get curious, because a plan is just a word. Ask them, hey, that sounds reasonable to me. Can you tell me what a plan looks like? What kind of plan would make you feel good and make us feel connected? Can we actually create it right now? Better yet, you tell them what a plan means to you and say, you know, when I think about a plan, it has this and this. It probably doesn't include that, but it has this, this, and we check it every three weeks and then say, is that what you had in mind? Don't make them do the work. You do the hard work and then get their thoughts. In the vast majority of couples that I talk to, neither person is actually specific with what they want because they actually don't know what they want. They simply know that they feel bad. And you can change that.

I need to have my feelings validated and be Heard and taken seriously. When I talk about money conversations, I need to be met with compassion. I need to know that we're going to work as a team, that we're like, moving toward the same thing and that we talk about what the vision is. Yeah. I need us to be, to be partners in this.

By you saying a partner, what does that mean? You know, to give you an example, would it be every Thursday night we get together and we talk about finances as a way to come together as a team. So you bring your numbers, I bring my numbers. We come onto the same playing field in the same court, and we, we practice.

What's funny is that that was actually one of the things I was just going to say that we have a weekly, a weekly meetup around. Around money and where we're at and just like, as a check in, making sure that we're. Yeah. Working toward our, our vision and, and goals together.

Hold on, hold on. Take the win. That was awesome. That was so good. Seriously. That was amazing. Really good. Specific. You were both thinking the same thing. Neither had said it, so I love that. Elisa.

Yeah.

Remember what Jesse said about what he needs in your conversations together? What was it that he said? Validate that back to him.

What would make it positive for you, for us having these weekly meetings? Like, what are some things that. Yeah. What are, what are some things that you would like to see?

Just off the top of my head, I think, you know, we, we, we gather, we have dinner together each night. I don't think that's the time to necessarily talk about these things, but maybe instead of after dinner sitting down, watching a show, you know, or watching. I want to make you want to teach you to be rich. We actually talk. They talk about money over a dessert or, or some tea or whatever it is for that night. And we can, we can even get creative with it and switch venues and go someplace and do these things. We don't always have to do it at home, but we just need to be consistent about it and to make it fun, we treat ourselves to something fun, you know, something that is, we both enjoy, whether that be dessert or a treat or just good conversation with each other at the end of the night. I think that all those things are things I can give you. And with practice and time, I would hope that that's enough. Yeah, I, I think, I think I deserve more than I give myself credit for. I think there's a sense of safety in my, my attitudes around playing small, if you want to use those words, or being comfortable.

Wow.

And that, you know, I, I think I'm scared of the challenge of more. So when comes to more, it feels out of my reach.

What if you fail? What if you try and, and what if you get it and you didn't actually like it? And all these things, gosh, if I were in your relationship right now, I'm seeing these things searing a hole in my brain. I'm writing notes for our first conversation. Second, third, fourth. If I'm Elisa, on the next money conversation, I'm going, you know what, Jesse, I love you and I really want to thank you for opening up when we were speaking to Ramit. I never realized that you think of yourself as playing small. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about that. Where did that come from? Have you ever noticed that before? Why do you think you do it? What would it feel like to play big? Just listening. Right. No advice, just listening. And like, I could tell from Jesse. Jesse, have you ever been asked those questions before?

No.

Yeah. Might be tough the first time, second time, I mean, that's like a very intimate. Just listening, just listening. That's what partners are for. Yeah. So it's like a kind of a beautiful opportunity for the two of you to meet each other again.

I think that it's possible for us to live our rich life. We have work to do, but it's not as far out of a reach as we might think it is.

I didn't go into detailed solutions with Elisa and Jesse and I want to tell you why. Because it's important for you. A lot of times people want to see me work through the conscious spending plan and make some specific suggestion about savings or investments or something like that. Fine. But today was not the right time for that. What I needed to do was to gently reorient them to notice the money dynamic between them and give them a couple of small reframes such as how to think about money positive. And here's the lesson for you. When you're trying to change your relationship with money, you're not going to do it in one conversation. It takes time. It often feels really slow, but that's normal. Slow it down and take the wins along the way. That's what we did today with Elisa and Jesse. And now they have the guidance to build a shared vision. Let's check out the follow ups to see how they are doing.

First, Jesse, what I learned in our conversation was that my particular relationship with money is one of laxity. It's almost laziness. Laissez faire. That really hasn't served me or maybe not doesn't serve me anymore and that that can be changed. I believe in the ability to change our mindsets and fitness, so why not within money? What surprised me the most in our conversation was the urgency that I need to pay off my credit card. Seeing the numbers was a smack in the face. What I'm going to be doing differently is plotting a different course to pay off my credit card debt sooner than later and to meet with Elisa once a month to begin our shared vision. And starting this October, I hope that our conversations around money will be pleasant if not peaceful or productive versus what we've always experienced is hiding and shame.

And.

Ugliness and sort of disgust around.

Talking about money and now Elisa.

Something I learned on our call was that we do actually have more time than I think to turn things around and make significant changes and build wealth. And I know I wasn't fully buying into it and accepting that on our call, but in having some time to process that more, I'm coming around to that now and starting to accept that more. And it was really helpful to hear that from you. Something that surprised me was how hard it was for me to express my needs and be clear about what I meant. And I didn't really realize that until after the fact how much I was unconsciously holding some of it in. You know, the degree of how scared I've been and how lonely I felt and how much I felt like I've had to bear this all on my own. Something I'm doing from here is I'm brainstorming what my rate increase is going to look like and it is definitely going to be more than $5. I see the ridiculousness of that and how that's another example of me playing small. So I'm just hashing out what that's all going to look like and I'm going to be rolling that out soon.

I received an email follow up from Elisa several weeks later and I wanted to read you a little bit of it because it's so fascinating. Hi Ramit, I hope you don't mind me reaching out. I've had a lot come up since our conversation last Monday and since recording my follow up video felt called to share. Our conversation seemed to open the floodgates and many more details about my upbringing with money have come through. I'm surprised at how many relevant things have come up, like how my parents drained my college savings account during the period when my dad first lost his job because they needed the money and I was the last to be going to college. I'm seeing now how much I resented that. My mom also shamefully told me during one of the periods when my dad was out of work that they borrowed $40,000 from my grandparents and would probably never be able to pay it back. I remember feeling her shame and I was just an early teen. I also recall feeling like a burden during my college years and getting in arguments with my parents about student loans. I went into adulthood justifying purchases and that has been a consistent pattern that I still struggle with. And despite hearing the idea of saving since childhood, I didn't really start doing that until more recent years. There's more I could say, but you get the idea. Stuff really got stirred up, but I think it's a good thing, despite the fact that it was overwhelming. I want to thank you for this though, because it helps me see things more clearly. Now I also know where I have more healing to do and I see that as a gift. Elisa, thank you for the follow up. And thank you for allowing me the permission to share this email with everybody who watches and listens to this podcast. That in itself is a gift. The thing I love about Elisa and Jesse's follow ups is that crystallization that they have control over their money much more than they thought. I think for so many of us it's frustrating to feel like money is happening to us. And one of my goals with my conversations and my guests is to show them that they can actually take more control over their money than they had previously thought. As always, thanks for listening and thanks for watching. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach youh to Be Rich my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.