138. “My wife doesn’t want me to take a $720k job offer”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question, There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to Find an Extra Thousand dollars a Month and how to Do a Rich Life annual review. Plus we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching.

I, being a medical trainee for the last eight years have sort of been living almost paycheck to paycheck and thankfully Mel has been really supporting me for the last three years and now I'm at a point where I'm about to be complete with my training and I will be a significantly higher earner.

I don't think there's anything that can take away the anxiety of what we've been through over the last few years.

I think once I make full partner it would probably be somewhere around 55 to 60k a month.

Mel, do you accept that this financial change is happening? That the household income you are about to get, regardless of what job Babu chooses is real?

What makes it difficult to accept is that I can never make that amount of money. Ever. Even if I decided to open up my own private practice, I could never ever again be the one that supports the house financially.

Meet Mel and babu. They're both 33 year old doctors worrying about how to make an important career decision that's going to change their financial lives forever. Babu's about to finish his training and he wants to work in one area, but Mel is not on board. What you're going to see in today's conversation is that Mel and Babu have a very specific way of thinking, and that way of thinking has helped them excel in their careers. But when it comes to these unstructured decisions, like where to work, they are paralyzed. I specifically wanted to talk to them because a lot of us think about life in a certain way, and it's actually helped us become successful. But when we face other situations where we have to think in a totally different way, we also get stuck. It's the beginning of the year, a perfect time to think about what you want your rich life to be this year. Where do you want to spend more money? Where do you. Where do you want to cut or redirect your spending? Now, a few weeks ago in my newsletter, I shared how to do an end of the year Rich life review. And my wife and I, of course, did this. I want to share what came out of it, what we loved, how we are thinking about our categories of spending and what our rich life is going to look like in 2024. I loved our conversation. It was fun. It was dreamy. It's exactly what money is supposed to be. So this Saturday, January 13th, I'll be sharing what we discovered in our Rich Life review. You can only get this material@iwt.com podcastnewsletter.

We talk about money constantly, to be honest. Like, how much from the time that we wake up until, you know, the time that we get home. And we text each other throughout the day about how our brokerage accounts are doing and we'll wait.

How much time per day do you spend talking about consuming media, about reading, analyzing money?

At least three to four hours per day. Babu, how many episodes of Ramith's podcast have you had just playing in the background? Yep.

Seems to be causing some stress, their relationship. Would you agree?

The spreadsheet comes out weekly.

Okay. Okay.

Because it changes.

I mean, you guys are hilarious and you don't even know it. Seriously, the people I talk to, they don't even know how much money they earn. And. And what about in your relationship? Like, if I were there with a clipboard for a month, what would I write down about the way that the two of you together feel about money?

We try to make big decisions about our finances together. I think there are times certainly that we disagree about certain things, such as how quickly to pay off our student loans, how to invest our money, and how much to invest.

I, being a medical trainee for the last eight years, have sort of been living almost paycheck to paycheck, and thankfully, Mel has been really supporting me for the last three years. But we've had these times in our lives where we're changing roles as the higher earner. And now I'm at a point where I'm about to be complete with my training and I will be a significantly higher earner. These last few months maybe have been particularly stressful when it comes to big decisions.

I just wanted to maybe try to entertain the idea of maybe taking a lesser paying job where for that, Babu would take a lesser paying job and we'd be in a place where I have, you know, better career satisfaction. And things got pretty heated, intense. And we just had to take a break from the argument.

And when you say lesser paying, that's way more than he's earning now, but potentially less than the top offer.

Right?

It would be probably four times my income.

Okay, and how much times the current income you're making, Babu? Would the lesser pay be minimum of five times? Okay, got it.

For the last three years, we lived for my training in a different place that was, to be frank, just not our kind of environment. And my wife took a job that supported us because she was done with her medical training, but it wasn't the best environment for her. She was stressed all the time. She was unhappy with her sort of workplace and life balance. So much so that, you know, she actually ended up quitting early. And we just made it work for a couple of months without her income and just mine alone. And now we're in a place for my last year of training where she loves it. We came in with the plan being like, okay, we're going home, back to where we're originally from. After this, I started looking for jobs immediately. And the offers I got, you know, frankly, are more money than I could have ever expected in my life. We have the potential to reach every single financial goal we had. Quickly. It felt to Mel as if I was ignoring her views about her job and how much she likes it. And now we're moving again. It led to sort of a downward spiral and argument about, like, why are we so focused on money at this point? We both clearly are going to be high earners since we're both physicians. Like, what does it matter?

Got it. All right, so you took a break from this heated conversation, and then what happened?

You plan to be on your podcast, really?

That night.

I feel like from watching your. Your podcast, you. You have unique experiences that we felt like you could understand because you have family who you know, are physicians and you understand kind of how rigorous the training is, how much you sacrifice, you know, and give up a lot of years of your life. And. And so I feel like I've just been sacrificing and sacrificing. I guess part of the reason I got so upset during this argument is because I am tired of delaying gratification. I finally found something that works for me. And, you know, I know that money is important to us, but we're going to be making so much of it. Like, do does the difference between the lower paying job and higher paying job is that really, you know, going to keep us from making our financial goals, you know, in the timeline that we've set up? So.

Got it. Okay, I'm going to ask you a question that might seem a little weird, but since we're talking about all your numbers today. Do you remember your high school GPAs?

Yeah, of course.

You do?

Yeah.

What were they?

I think I was 3.9. Was it 5, 6 or something like that?

Okay. I love how you take it to the fifth decimal place. Okay, great. Bobby, what about you?

I think I was like 3.95. She was like a few spots.

You were 3.923, I think, or something like that.

Of course, you've talked about it too. This is amazing.

This is exactly what we said we wouldn't do on the pod.

No, I love it. And then college GPAs, what was that?

Mine was, I think, 3.85. And Babu, you were 3.66 or 7 or something.

It's very clear to me that the two of you excel in structured ways of thinking. And so now that you're coming up to this unstructured question of life, which is like, I like my job, but then you could make more money. This is becoming difficult because unlike the structured questions where you're just like, maximize my gpa, this is the first time that maybe maximization purely based on numbers may not be the only way to look at the solution.

We had a structured plan going forward, just like you mentioned. Right. We knew this is what we were thinking about before we moved here because this was an unexpected move for my last year. And I mean, frankly, we love where we live, but we had certain goals and we had a laid out plan to hopefully get to those goals. I was just excited because I was like, man, we can do this quickly. I think we could beat the plan and successfully if we do it right. And so I think now it's kind of like, oh my gosh, what are we doing?

I do like a plan. I do. Yes. I also recognize that the plans can change. They can be flexible. Do we always really have to stick to the plan, Babu? We can adjust it, right? Maybe instead of retiring at 45, we retire at 47.

How do we do this so that we enjoy the time we have now while still being able to reach certain goals?

Okay, I totally get this. I'm the less spontaneous one in my relationship. I love a good plan. I love it. But I also think that left to my own devices, I would sit at home on the computer building models and planning for something 35 years from now. And that's, like, it's probably not that healthy for me. So I can see both. I completely understand a good plan. I love it. I want to live in it. And I also understand that maybe spontaneity can be additive to it as well. All right, let's talk about it. How do you feel about money today?

I feel excited about some of the upcoming changes in our income. I like talking about personal finance, but at the same time, I just also feel like I don't really know what I'm doing. We got to a point where I think I just got so frustrated. I told Babu just to make a decision and I'll just go with it and.

Okay.

And then what'd you do, Babu?

So, you know, naturally, I felt somewhat guilty about it because I think as much as my wife loves her job now, and I hate to say this this way, and so I apologize, but I don't know if it's that she loves her job now because it's not the job it was previously because it was very hard. And I don't. And I. In my opinion, I think we can try to replicate everything you have wherever we go next. Now, I can't guarantee it, no matter what, but I think there are certain benefits that kind of outweigh it. And so, out of respect to my wife, I did everything that was asked in terms of applying for jobs within the area that we're currently in. One of the offers I've gotten has been pretty great so far. And.

And when do you have to make a decision?

Next week?

Yeah, ideally next week. Maybe after.

Are you serious? The stakes are high.

I honestly would. In this particular case, I think there are so, so many sort of extenuating factors that would add to the decision that ultimately, I think I would have a really, really long discussion with Mel, but probably choose the one that we both know is likely the longest term best move.

Is that the one that you want Maybe. Okay, yes.

I personally would have to take all of my own feelings and emotion out of it and look at everything from a very logical and, I guess, objective perspective.

Is that common when you make decisions?

Yes, absolutely. It's. I mean, it's the nature of our jobs to be objective, as. As objective as possible. And so it's pretty easy for us to try and, you know, to flip the emotional switch on and off.

What about for things that you do together that are maybe not as inherently objective, such as which restaurant should we eat at? So would you have a conversation where one of you is like, I want to go to this Thai restaurant, and the other one's like, like, if you're feeling that, I'll go, but I'm really feeling more like pizza. Would you have that type of conversation?

That is how the conversations always go.

Yes, it's absolutely emotional. I mean, whatever we're feeling for today, like, whatever, we both agree on what we want to spend our money on. Like, we spend exorbitantly on food. For example. We, like, love eating out. We've gone to a bunch of very nice restaurants in our time together because for us, like, I mean, those are the things that make us so happy. So we don't try to take emotion out of that, like what restaurant we're going to.

So connect the dots for me, when you're talking about your career choice, is that different? Is that not a source of joy for you?

Oh, man. I'm going to try not to get in trouble here. I love what I do. I enjoy it. I think, ultimately, what's the best way to put this? I enjoy my time outside of work with my wife more. And so I know the two things I can never buy are my time and my health. And so for me, having a job that allows me to have maximize the amount of time I have with my wife while still giving me a chance to take care of us and ourselves is what I really look for.

I got it. So as it currently stands, if we ended the call right now, you two would go back to the, quote, objective spreadsheet and you would have some discussions, model it out again. It sounds like ultimately Babu would make the decision on this one. And Babu, you've said that based on your analysis, you would take the job back where you in your hometown. It would pay huge amounts of money, which would allow you to reach your financial goals. And I believe you would be close to your family as well. Is that right?

Probably. I mean, it'd be five minutes from my parents and ten minutes From Mel's.

Okay. And Mel, would you like to be closer to your parents? Hold on. You have to. You have to look at Mel's face right now.

She's.

She took a second to be like. How do I say this correctly? Like I'm asking because it sounds like Babu really wants to be near his parents. I'm not trying to put you in a box. Some people, you know, you can love your parents and not want to live five minutes from them. Just trying to understand.

I love my family. I love my parents. I love my. I love everybody. I enjoy having physical distance from everyone because it just simplifies our lives.

I got you. Okay. How would you make this decision? One of you is about to 5x what you currently earn and become the higher earner in the family. You have the chance to live closer to your family, but your spouse loves their job and is not super excited about living close to theirs. How would you decide? This is a really common scenario for couples. The decision might be about careers, in which case, a lot of times we often make the decision based on the higher earner. But what if you both earn enough? What if money is not the primary driver? What if you want to make a decision through a different lens? Besides what's on the spreadsheet that might be involving having children or one partner, staying at home or how to take care of elderly parents? There's so many scenarios in life where we have to think about things in a different way. And I want you to think about how you make big decisions in your relationship as well. We'll be right back. Real question for you. Do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and book this year's appointments today with zocdoc? Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care, and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. Instantly click through your options book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Z o c d o c.com ramit zocdoc.com ramit there's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent and I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where BILT comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month. And you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem which where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible. So you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, BILT recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026. So stay tuned. Join the loyalty program for renters at join built.com/ramit. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L T.com ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you. Let's get back to the show. All right, I think I understand what's going on here. What I don't understand are the numbers. And so we've kind of alluded to these salaries. With all these multiples and your financial goals, can we first just say how much are you two making right now?

That number, and you can tell me if I'm wrong is somewhere around $270,000.

All right, 270. And that's Mel is a full time physician and Babu still in training.

Correct.

Okay, got it. That's helpful. I want to understand these financial goals that you've talked about.

You know, I don't know if this was in our application, but we have been, we've known each other since we were 14 years old. We started dating when we were, you know, in high school. And so throughout different periods of our lives, we've had goals about what we want to achieve. And I think when we got real serious about a number was when we first started thinking about our wedding.

And Babu had to work a lot in order to save up for our wedding.

How much was the wedding going to cost?

It was definitely going to be well north of a hundred thousand, which I guess is small, based off of Indian wedding standards. But, you know, we were both in training. And it's 100,000 when you're in training and making 50 to 60,000 a year.

No family health.

Not very much on this, right? Very little.

Very little, Very little.

All right. Over the last three years, with Mel's recent sort of diagnosis and stuff, we are somebody like myself who projects and it plans every single thing. And I think that led to us being like, no, we have to sit on this firm number by this certain time, especially because we also want to help our parents out as they get older. But we had always sort of had things in the back of our minds probably for the last 10 years in terms of exactly where we want to be.

What's the number? What's the financial goal?

You want to say it, Babu? It sounds crazy.

All the better.

We feel like we would feel comfortable if we could retire with 10 million.

10 million what?

Dollars.

Can you all say it in a full sentence?

I don't even know what I'm. How to say this. But, yes, $10 million is our financial goal. Thank you for return.

Why so uncomfortable?

Feels very odd to say this because, like, I guess maybe because of how we grew up to talk about money at all. And, like, to some degree, I was so nervous about being completely unrelatable because, like, we're putting out such big numbers.

And you're unrelatable because you have a 3.96 GPA, not the number you have a goal for at the age of 33. I love a big goal. I love it. I love a big goal even more if there's a realistic chance of achieving it. That's fantastic. So I'm not so worried about unrelatability. Two of you are physicians. You've worked very hard since, literally, junior high. Why shouldn't you be able to reach for a huge goal and achieve it? I got no problem with it. What I'm more interested in is why you so uncomfortable to say the number?

Because there's. It's way more money than anyone in either of our families have ever made, have ever saved for. And our Parents have worked their whole lives and have not even gotten anywhere near, you know, that number or even, like, a fraction of it.

I get it. It. Maybe it's because of how we, like, grew up with money, you know, like, we definitely both come from sort of parents who worked. Like, my parents worked two jobs. Like, Mel's parents also worked a lot to give us a chance. And now, as they're getting older, we're, like, obviously very concerned about if they run into any health issues. I mean, like, by the way, 10.

Million to you means what? How'd you pick that number?

Yeah, if you do a safe withdrawal rate of 4%, that's $400,000 for the basically per year for 25 years. And it would be enough to take care of. And when I say enough, I mean way more than enough to take care of all of our living costs, our parents, to be able to retire them, and to be able to also go on all the travel and do things that we would need or we would want to.

I take a special delight in asking twisted questions and letting people sit there in silence. I truly love my job. But I also think this is fascinating, don't you? Here we have a couple that spends four hours a day talking about money. But when I ask them their financial goal, which you and I both know, they've written down in 300 spreadsheets, they find it difficult. Here's what you need to know about picking your number. It's a valuable exercise to think about a number. The point is actually not to be right. No one's ever going to be right. Some people pick too low. These are usually the people who are not particularly savvy with money. They're often scared of money. They don't prioritize earning more. They're afraid to factor in raises. In fact, they're not actually just afraid to factor in raises. They're also afraid to ask for them. On the other hand, some people pick wildly huge numbers. We had a doorman on the podcast who said something like, I won't be satisfied until I'm a billionaire. That's just setting yourself up for failure. So you're going to get the number wrong. But it's still important to go through the process. As you get older and savvier with money, you learn that the number itself is largely irrelevant. Yes, have a goal, but also remember that you have to live a rich life today and a richer life tomorrow. Let me put it another way. Once people hit their number, they rarely change their life. If they were worried way back then, they're still worried. Beware of picking a number and building your entire life around it. This is what I mean when I talk about the tail wagging the dog. Mel and Babu picked an arbitrary number, and now they are making life decisions to hit that number. But when I zoom out and say, why'd you pick that number? It's like they basically picked it out of thin air. Overall, I like people who think in terms of big goals. That's awesome. But beware of letting a number 30 years from now guide every decision in your life.

Our wedding actually got canceled because of COVID so we had sort of money that I had, that we had both worked for to save for the wedding leftover. We ended up just getting married on our porch, which was great. And we finally went on vacation, which, of course, I planned out, but my wife got appendicitis in Mexico.

Okay, that sucks.

Yeah, so she had, like, you know, she had to have surgery in Mexico. Like, we had to pay for it out of pocket initially, but, like, you know that after that period, we just went on like, all right, like, that seems like the worst thing that could happen. We just need to go enjoy our life.

What'd you do?

Oh, man. What did we do? What did we do?

We went to New York, New York City with my younger brother, and we ate at every Michelin star restaurant where we could make a reservation.

Like, where. Where'd you go?

Well, our favorite was a place called Kijitsu. I can't remember some of the other places we went to, but then we also took a trip to Chicago, and we spent a ton of money on Alinea as well. And we spent. We actually ended up going back to back weekends. It was an accident.

Whoa.

Double Alinea. Love it. All right, so you really like fine dining?

We did.

And traveling in general. Like, we never. We. We. We have sort of a kind of the opposite of what you recommend, where it's like we have a number in our head we know we're going to spend over it. So then we have like a second number that we're like, okay, that's fine.

What's the number that comes to mind? The dollar amount that you're like, this is probably how much this trip is going to cost.

I mean, 20. 20,000.

All right, that's pretty good. And then what does it end up costing?

Probably 25.

There have been bad decisions that I've made with investments in the past, thinking that maybe there's a way I could make a lot more money quickly, probably because this number's Been in my head. Yeah, I know it sounds stupid to.

Make money when you're gonna quickly. When you're gonna make hundreds of thousands of dollars as your starting salary.

By the way, this happened when we were in Cancun and my wife had had surgery. She was.

He made these investments right before I went to surgery.

It was more like I had a discussion with a friend and they were saying this is like essentially a market abnormality. And so I decided to buy a bunch of GameStop, about $15,000 worth. And I think the stupidest decision of all was I did most of it with my Roth IRA initially, which I know should be like the safest funds, which I have now sold all of, even though I held onto it for a long time, hoping that one day something would change. I guess I still have some crypto.

It's so interesting to me that when Mel and Babu have a structured process like grades or medical school, they excel. But when they're given a blank slate, they pick things like meme stocks. Let's pause for a quick message from our sponsors. When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto. This episode's sponsor, Gusto, is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly, and it's incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire onboard, and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers comp 401k matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt Once more gusto.com ramit I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out. But for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think out loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns Your voice into clean final draft, writing inside whatever app you're already using. Email, Slack Docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows, and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it. Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple voice to text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flip Flow. Try it for free at whisperflow AI Ramit. That's Whisperflow AI Ramit W, I S P R Flow AI Ramit. Or click the link in the description below. Next, in our conversation, I wanted to understand more about their families growing up. Did both your parents immigrate from other countries? Yes. All right, so they immigrated here to give you opportunities. And if they knew the incomes that you both make. I'm assuming they don't know the incomes you make, right?

No, they. Well, my wife told my mom about one of them. And now ever since then, it's been kind of like a. So how much did they offer you at this job? Kind of deal?

Why did you. Why did you tell that number?

There's a long plan behind it. I wanted her to know what he could. What he's capable of. I wanted her to his parents to be able to understand. If we ended up staying far away from home, it would be because the money was good.

And then within five minutes, every single auntie in town knew.

My dad has told every person he sees at the grocery store where I trained and, like, what I do.

Yeah, this is too good. Okay.

All right.

Your decision seems to pretty closely mirror how other doctors make their decision, right?

Yeah. And I think for me, what. What the hard thing has been is we had a sort of. I'm so sorry. I'm going to come off as like, the most neurotic person, but we had a list of checks that we. Or a sort of checklist of things we wanted prior to us moving and my wife starting out her new job. I thought with the opportunity to. I was presenting. I hit every single checkbox and then.

Some, and it just didn't work right.

Exactly. So I get conflicted to be honest, because part of me is like, well, like I have an opportunity to do something fantastic and get us to where we want to be very quickly. And also, I understand the idea of job satisfaction a lot. If we both agree that we get more satisfaction outside of work, there's a real opportunity for that. To where even if Mel didn't want to work, she doesn't have to because we'd be more than comfortable.

I get it. I totally get it. Mel, what do you want to say about that? I mean, he hit all the checks. What else is there? He did.

And we've had this conversation over and over again. What I really wanted was just acknowledgement that I have followed him all over the country for his career and I have made sacrifices, you know, personally and career wise in order to, you know, for him to have what he wants. I think I just wanted him to be more understanding of what I was kind of going through and battling with in my own head.

You wanted him or you want him?

He's gotten better about acknowledging my feelings. But yes, I do want that acknowledgement from. From my husband.

That was a big moment. Even though they try to make decisions using an objective spreadsheet, most of us actually make big decisions using what we feel. And then we find a way to logically justify it. We do it with decisions as small as the brand of chips we buy at the grocery store and decisions as large as where to live. Now, as I've always said, if you want to live a rich life, you have to be honest with yourself and honest with the people around you. And that means acknowledging that you're emotional about decisions. That's okay. Emotions are okay. Now, yes, when it comes to big life and financial decisions, you should pair them with numbers. But it's totally okay to say, hey, I want you to acknowledge that I've followed you all over the country, and I feel like maybe it's my turn or maybe it's my turn to prioritize what I'm looking for in this chapter of our lives. Speaking of numbers, I'm going to share their finances using the conscious spending plan. And if you want to download this free template for yourself, you can get it@iwt.com CSP Their assets, $13,000. Their investments, $200,500. Their savings, $142,000. And their debt, which is all student loans, is $315,000.

Total net worth, $40,089.

How do you feel about that number?

Kind of sad.

And I understand that your student loans, you have you're four years away from at least your student loans, Mel, being forgiven, Is that correct?

Correct.

All right, so some amount of that is going to go away. And then Babu, how much is going to be left?

Well, if I take this other job, their sign on bonus will take care of all of my student loans.

Oh, that's nice.

And then this current job, I have.

To stop here because I don't think people understand what happens at really high income jobs. Let me just explain this for a second because this is really cool. People need to see what's going on behind this, behind the closed doors. So when you have a very highly paid job, there are lots of perks. They will help you get a mortgage. They will pay all your moving or relocation costs. I mean, they'll put your kids in private school. $50,000 a year, no problem. Nowadays it's more 65,000 a year. They will help secure a job for your spouse, including a recruiter. All those things happen at really high end job, executive level jobs, et cetera. Babu, tell us what happens at this specialty for your position.

In my position, they basically would give me a sign on bonus that would take care of all of my loans. They also helped me find a job. They had multiple recruiters reach out to her. They also sort of were happy to hook me up with any kind of realtor, anybody in the area that could help us get established very quickly. And that was just at this job that's back home where we are. I mean, some of the other perks in this current job, the one where we're living, where like they'll help you like lease a car through there, through their business office, they'll help you set up a business or like a business entity to help you sort of like, sort of optimize your tax structure.

Yeah, I'd be like, can you guys cook spaghetti for me? Like what I'd be, I'd literally walk in there with a piece of it, be like, write down every single perk that you have. Tell me everything you can do for me. And then after they finish, you'd be like, yeah, but what about my haircuts? Like, you expect me to find my own haircut? That's not going to happen.

And as ridiculous as it sounds like my interview was a like a private dinner at one of their homes cooked by a private chef who like owns a restaurant for like 30 people just for me and Mel to like meet everyone. And it was fantastic.

So I think it's cool for everyone to know this is how the world works. At very high end positions. It's nothing to be ashamed of. If anything, I'm proud of you and I'm proud of both of you for being able to enjoy the perks of this. Took a lot of hard work. Nobody just slips and trips and falls into offers like that. You got to be good. So congratulations. Very impressive. That's awesome. All right, your loans, if you go to that place, are going to be paid off. If you stay in this place, what happens?

Hers will be paid off and I'll pay mine off over the course of the first year. Six months.

Oh, that's it. God damn. I got to figure out how much you're about to make. Hold on, hold on to that number. That's great. I love. Okay, so the loans are basically a done deal. They're sort of irrelevant. All right, we're looking at 300,000 in loans. Both of you are just like, yeah, yeah, whatever.

It's.

It's going to disappear soon. Let's not even count that. Fine. So if we look at your current income, where again, Mel, you are a full fledged physician, and Babu, you're in training, you currently make, like you said, about $270,000 a year.

Great.

Your rent is $2,350. I love it. I love young doctors, usually before they become doctors. Let me tell you why. Because the minute they become doctors, they do everything wrong with money. You've heard me say it before. Doctors are one of the professions who are the absolute worst with money. They lease BMWs right out of the gate. They sign up for the worst financial advisors on the planet. And there's some very good reasons for this, which I cover on episode 127. Of course, if we compare doctors to some of the people I see on my social media feed, I'm talking about influencers, incels, the type of people who love to write me and tell me that I'm wrong. Doctors are angels. At least they have solid jobs with high income. I literally have guys in my YouTube comments making $27,000 a year telling me I'm stupid for investing in index funds. Because the real way to, to make money is by concentrating all your assets in alternative investments. That's what Charlie Munger said. Where do I even start? Forget it. Let's just get back to the episode now for the big moment I have been waiting for, which is, first, give me the big number. So right now, Babu, this is your income. $6,000 a month.

Yeah.

All right. Give me the biggest number at the, you know, place with the Highest offer, how much gross income would you make per month?

At the biggest offer so far, it's about 42,000amonth.

What? Ah, my spreadsheet went so crazy. Hold on, hold on, everybody watch these numbers because I don't even know how the hell this spreadsheet is going to handle it. Hold on, watch this. 42,000 turns their gross monthly income into 59,000 per month. By the way, obviously the net is not calculated here, so I'm just going to make it up. If you're making 60k a month, you're taking home, I don't know, what do you say?

Well, after you max out your like 400k and the health savings and all that stuff, that would probably be 35 somewhere. Yeah, probably 35.

Let's say 35.

Move to a place with no state tax, which that's not why we'd move there. That just happens to be a perk of some one of these places. But yeah, yeah, it could be.

All right, let's just say 35,000. Okay, so your fixed costs, if you were to keep it the same, go down to 14%. I mean, this is hilarious because most people can't even keep their entire housing expense below 14%. Your entire fixed cost, if you stayed exactly the way you're living, which you should not, you should spend more, would be 14%. Mel, why'd you just have that reaction?

Part of the plan that we've come up with is that when Bobby takes on this higher paying job, we are going to continue living how we currently are for at least two or three years until all the loans are done.

Okay?

Then we can think about a mortgage, new cars.

You guys are too good. All right, so let me explain what's going on here, okay? Because like 99% of America just heard you. And they, they literally, they think you're speaking Martian. I would say probably about 90% of people I talk to, the minute they get more money, they're like, let's get a new car, let's get a new house. And what Mel just said, Mel and Babu have talked about this. They're going to continue living in a $2,300 apartment for two years. There's something beautiful about saying we have made a bunch of money. Let's maintain at least the similar universe of our lifestyle. That's awesome. You do that and you're set. What? No ATVs, no $125,000 renovation, which you claim is actually an investment because renovations simply and positively increase the value of the house. Always. No Are you hearing what Mel and Babu are saying? It's so important. One of the reasons I occasionally bring high earners on the show is, is I want you to have access to hear how they think and how they talk about money. Most of us have never heard a couple who's about to earn $700,000 a year talk about money openly and candidly. And when they do, what are they saying? They are saying when we get more money, we're going to wait to make huge purchases. Amazing. Why is it that the couple's making $73,000 a year, are out there renovating their houses and buying two cars, Freaking boats. While the couple who's been in School for 30 years and is on track to have millions of dollars is like, let's just sit tight for a couple of years and pay everything off. Then we can spend a little bit more. This reminds me of one of my favorite movie scenes of all time, the intro to the Firm. You remember that movie from the 90s with Tom Cruise? Mitch McDeer and his wife are living in this tiny apartment while he goes to law school, eating takeout food because they have no money and. And suddenly he gets a life changing offer. I love that scene. I love that concept. To me, there's something formative about living in modest circumstances and doing the best you can. Now, of course, it helps to be able to eventually move into something nicer, just like Mel and Babu are going to do. What I can say is that they are both very disciplined with their money. And if a couple who's about to make $700,000 a year can live beneath their means, I hope that inspires you too as well. We'll be right back after this. What comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport. Scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff, and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. 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Yes. So we invested the minimum that we could when we were in residency and of course in medical school. When we were in our 20s, we weren't earning an income. So we feel like now we have to catch up and so we're trying to be as aggressive as possible.

Do you feel anxious about it or do you feel calm about catching up?

A little bit of both, I think. I feel anxious about trying to get to where we want to be, but I feel some calmness and peace knowing that our shovel to get there is a big. It's a bit bigger than other people. And I realize that's a privilege. Not everyone is in our position to do so.

Okay, that's a healthy answer. I love that I rarely encounter someone who feels calmness and peace about catching up. And I wish more people had the answer that you did. Fantastic. I have one minor, minor tweak. You know what I'm going to say, right? You don't know.

Okay.

Mel literally doesn't know. Babu, you know what I'm going to say. What is it?

Well, I think this is another point of maybe a mild contention between me and my wife is that I think there should be some lifestyle creep. You know, I don't think we should live exactly the way we're living. Like, you know, these vacation budgets, for example. Like, maybe it would be nice to travel first class once in a while, you know, especially if we can afford it, which it seems like we can.

I have a lot of anxiety about seeing our savings and investment numbers go down.

Right. Why?

I think I won't feel 100% comfortable with that until we actually have the income coming in. Because right now this is all just, you know, just hypothetical. I think it's because we've had a lot of. I know exactly why. It's because we've had a lot of unexpected life events happen in the last three years. And I feel secure knowing that we, you know, we have enough money to take care of whatever make happen.

I got it. It's like your fortress. You. You're strong enough to weather whatever may come your way.

Okay.

Is there a number that you need to feel secure?

Yes. So we've actually talked about this. The number initially. So when I ended up having appendicitis and we had to shell out money out of pocket to pay for the surgery up front, the number used to be 30,000. Now the number now that we've, you know, had more things happen and we're taking into account, you know, there are other people who will depend on us. The number that we need minimum in our savings is 100,000.

Okay, that's fair. What's this number right here?

141,000.

That's how much you currently have in your savings without any additional job that Babu gets?

Yes. Minus. Did you subtract the 18,000 that we spent on our credit cards this past month for vacation?

I'll take it down to 120 just to be. Okay, okay.

That 120 makes me nervous. The 140 I felt a little better about.

All right, you felt a little better or like, because you said 100 is what you need, but you're telling me that 120 actually makes you feel nervous and 140 you still feel. Is it possible that maybe the number is not really going to change your feeling?

I don't know, but I'd like to find out.

You'd like to find out by stuffing it full of like $600,000 more and then I'll figure it out, right?

Yes.

All right, well, if, listen, if you want to do that experiment, then I can tell you two things. Number one, Babu should take the highest paying job that he can possibly get because that's the fastest way you can stuff that account up to hundreds of thousands of dollars. And number two is you're not going to feel any differently when that's double, triple, quadruple or 10 times more. I'll tell you right now. How's that strike you?

I don't believe you.

But it is interesting that your number used to be 30 and now it's a hundred. And do you feel any differently?

No, I don't.

Let's say she feels worse. So now I think there's this mindset of like, okay, we really need to have a very large sort of backup plan.

How large is large?

I thought we were there, but that's me looking at just the numbers of what I've projected.

So, Mel, how large is large?

I. I don't know.

Babu, as you're hearing Mel share her discomfort spending money. What do you, what do you notice?

Yeah, maybe it's that we just don't feel like we've earned it yet. I think she is a. I mean, I love, I love my wife and I think she is a lot of stress and anxiety around taking care of other people at the expense of taking care of herself. Just the usual things that you need to, that you should do. Like, I mean, I know a lot of the things that she does herself is sort of me pushing forward or encouraging it because I want her to know that like, you are just as important as all the other people around you and it's got to be exhausting to take care of everyone around you.

Mel, what are you thinking as you hear that? It's okay. Take your time. You need to take a break. We can take a break.

Can we?

Sure, let's take a break. Come back in a couple of minutes. No problem. I'M always happy to take a break when I speak to couples on the podcast. My guests are extremely courageous to come here and share some of the most intimate details of their lives. That can be scary and nerve wracking. So I want to thank all of my guests, especially Mel and Babu today for being so open. I will also say it's striking that we've talked about some really heavy stuff so far. Huge career decisions, living near family, completely changing their socioeconomic status. But it was only when I brought up how Mel feels about money that she became overwhelmed. Both Mel and Babu excel at logic and structure. But all of us are human. We feel certain things about money. And our feelings are like a muscle. If you don't use them, when you're confronted with them, it can feel overwhelming. Now, if you are a logical spreadsheet lover, you might ignore your feelings and double down on your calculations. It's safe, it's calm. Cell C36 never made me cry, but that's just camouflage. The real solution is, yes, know your numbers, of course, but also master your money psychology and the way you feel about money. Build those skills. You know what? I'm glad Mel wanted a break because that break made what happens next possible. What was going through your head?

I get very emotional when Bobby reminds me. When Bobby reminds me of how hard it. I guess things have. I don't know. I get very emotional when he says things like he just did because it just shows me how much he cares and loves me. And I know ultimately we are going to be fine financially.

That makes you emotional why?

It makes me emotional because I really love my husband and I'm very grateful for everything that he's done for us. And I know how hard he's worked over these last several years in training to get where he is.

Your own history would suggest that whatever number you set collectively, you two are such a powerful team that you're going to blow through that goal. No doubt. You've done it every time you set a goal, correct? I mean, back since junior high. If you think about it, when you met in high school, you two set goals, you talked about it, you beat your goals, and here you are on top of the career pyramid. You did it. Now you've shifted that focus to money, and you've taken that same quantitative, structured approach. You said, okay, we need a goal, we need to save, we need to invest. And you did it. And, you know, all this debt and stuff aside, you won. Give it another one year and the numbers are gonna be insanely positive. And yet feeling anxious about money, shifting the goal posts, and now more than ever, planning for what can go wrong. Instead of giving yourselves regular pats on the back and saying, oh, my God, we did it right. What do you make of that?

I know that's a product of our jobs. We see the worst of the worst. We know all of the rare complications, the rare diseases that can happen. And in fact, both of us have come, have been diagnosed with very rare issues. So, yes, we're always planning for the worst case scenario.

And I want you to have a plan. Plans are so deeply embedded in both of you that nobody could come here and tell you, you should stop planning. I'm not going to tell you that. I like that you have plans. I think something is missing. It's missing from the way that you talk about money. It's missing from the way that you talk about careers. It's missing from the way that you talk about your future together. What is miss? What I see that's missing is a true rich life vision. You're really adept at the numbers and projecting, no doubts about that. But what is it all for? What is $120,000 in savings or $250,000 get you? What does $10 million get you? You might think it'll make you feel safe, but that's not really compelling.

So we, you know, we've talked about this. We've talked about, like, okay, if we get there, what do we want out of all of this?

When we get there?

When we get there, what do we want out of all of this? And I would say those things have really changed over the last five years, you know, with our own sort of wedding getting canceled, wife getting appendicitis, our own sort of health issues that have come up. And it feels like we're trying very hard to get there even faster than we did before. Because our hope is that the things we want to do, which we've planned out, which is being able to travel without worrying or see our. Take care of our parents. And I think, to get extremely specific, we have thought about the exact place we'd like to retire and the type of, like, we'd want where at that point.

Can you tell me?

Yeah, it's one of two places. It's either going to be in Hawaii, specifically the North Shore of Oahu, or this last year we were in Madrid. And we like Spain. We both, thankfully, can speak a little Spanish and we love the culture there. We like how everything was set up, and we felt like there were very few places in the world, we just could retire happily. And that was one of them. And so that's the goal, is to ultimately be able to do that without worrying. And I feel like we're getting there. I agree.

Mel, what do you think? What's the rich life vision?

It's about being able to, like Babu said, I agree with everything he said is, you know, being able to travel, go where we want without having to worry about money. It's about having options, including, you know, just when we work. If I want us to be able to work because we enjoy it, not because we feel like we have to earn an income. I want the option to live wherever we want to in the world and, and just be able to go anywhere we want without anyone telling us where to be.

When do you get to live it?

Well, I'd like to live. Start living it at 45, so 10 years from now.

But I guess there's always some worry in the back of our mind about, you know, what's going to happen next. I feel like as a byproduct of the way we were brought up and the careers we decided to choose, that's a natural sort of defense mechanism for us to be able to deal with or cope with some of the issues we deal with day to day.

It's worked so far because it's gotten you both where you are, which is successful. So let's keep using the same strategies that got us here, right?

Yeah, yeah.

That's how most people go through life, especially if you are academically inclined and, you know, you're a high achiever. Like I said, you, you know how to win. You get the, the A's or a, preferably A pluses, you get into great schools, you do your training and you win. But sometimes the thing that got us here, as the famous book title goes, will not get us there. You can't spreadsheet your way to a rich life.

I agree with that. You know, you have to change what you're doing as your circumstances change. I mean, that's pretty much what we do every single day, right? In our, in our jobs.

Totally agree. Similarly, maybe the ways that you made decisions about money early on, maybe there's a different way to look at it now. Because according to the numbers here, Babu, you told me about the highest income that you would expect. By the way, I suspect from the way you two are talking that that number goes up substantially over time. Correct? Yes. What's the, what's the number that it eventually would become per month? Or just tell us that. I don't know, some number.

I would say, let me. Conservatively, I think once I make full partner, it would probably be somewhere around like 55 to 60k month.

So talking like 700, $800,000 a year.

Yeah.

Fantastic. All right, now, instead of this current 42,000 quote entry level salary that you would get at the high place, tell us about what you might get if you stayed in your current location.

So if we stayed at the sort of lower paying with. I can't believe I'm saying that, but it would be approximately like 20, about 30k a month.

That feels comfortable.

Yeah. Again, let me just read off the numbers for everybody listening. We're talking about a gross monthly income of 47,000. This is the job that is in the current city, not moving. Okay. So it's not the highest paying one, but it's quite well paying. Um, you're netting, you know, we're just estimating here 28,000amonth. Again, real rough, rough numbers. Fixed costs are 18%, investments are 66% of net. All right. Savings are 7% and your guilt free spending is 9%. Now this is a seriously wacky CSP, but I'll tell you something, I don't mind it. My CSP makes no sense because I spend a ton of money on travel. And your goal is like, we want to invest super heavily. Okay. Mel, what do you think of the numbers? They look okay. What do you feel?

Yeah, they look okay. I would feel very comfortable with that. And actually, the investments come out to a lot more than what Babu and I have discussed.

Why is that?

I think because we've thought about how much we want to invest total over the next couple of years. And then once he makes full partner, then we'll, you know, that number will increase probably by double.

Yeah. So you could invest even more. Can we just take a look at the. Let's just do a compound interest calculator because I know you have this goal of 10 million. By the way, how much do you currently have invested?

About how much did we say? 200,000? Was it 250? Was it?

Okay.

Is that about right? 250. All right.

I think so. All right.

Annual addition. What was the number we just said? 18,000amonth. Yeah, so let's just. 18 times 12 is 216,000. Huh? That's a lot. That's great. That's crazy to see that, right?

It's insane to see that because that's more than my whole salary right now.

Yeah. All right, well, again, these are just numbers. And you have choices. You could choose where you go to work and all that. There's lots to choose from, years to grow. You're 33. Should we just say, like.

Let's.

You want to just do 65 just to see.

Sure.

And, of course, what interest rate should we choose?

Seven.

We've been going with eight. Yeah, 7 or 8%.

Let's do seven. Eight. I hope you get eight. Let's just do seven. To be conservative. What number is this going to be?

I would guess somewhere around 10 million.

Okay. What do you think, Mel?

I don't know. I'm not very good at math.

All right, read that number out loud, please.

$27,652,437.51.

$27,000,000. What's your takeaway from that?

It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money.

Okay, that's a good. Now give me your second takeaway.

Probably don't need. I mean, I don't.

I mean, we don't need that much money. Also, I don't want to work until we're 65.

Okay. Want to play it out a little bit shorter?

Sure.

How many years?

We ideally would like to retire at 45 or cut back hours at 45. So 12 years from now.

12 years. Read the numbers.

$4.6 million.

4.6. That does not include what? Any raises?

Yeah, that's a good point.

And the raises will come. They're quite predictable. It's just a number of years, et cetera, et cetera. And I know that when you get a raise, it's going to be a large number, and you would increase the amount you contribute by tens of thousands per year. Right. So actually, the number we just selected, which is $216,000 a year in investments, would actually be quite a bit higher over the course of 12 years. What does that tell you? What's your takeaway?

I think we can relax. I think it's going to be okay.

We're going to be fine. Regardless of which job he chooses, it.

Is very, very common that people want to speak to me with some minute technical question. But as I get to know them, they work through the question they thought they had, then another, until finally they realize that what they're feeling actually has nothing to do with some technical question about money. That is exactly what's happening here. Mel has been worried about not having enough for some very real reasons. But now that we've systematically dispensed with each of her objections, we're about to get an even deeper Truth with what she's actually worried about. Mel, do you accept that this financial change is happening? That the household income you are about to get, regardless of what job Babu chooses, is real?

Yes, I acknowledge it's real. What makes it difficult to accept is that I can never make that amount of money ever, no matter what position I can I take. Even if I decided to open up my own private practice, I could never, ever again be the one that supports the house financially. I think that's what it ultimately boils down. That's what it all ultimately boils down to. It means that I would be depending on Babu for all of our finances, for our, you know, for. For basic living.

That's what.

That's what it feels like.

Hold on. I love this.

I know that's not true.

I know it's not true. Mel. I love it. Mel, don't stop me now. I love it. I just want to show how. How right I am. Because when I say the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the money in the bank. And here we have a very successful position. Mel, who's currently earning $17,000 per month, that's a very good salary. And Mel, you are concerned that suddenly you're not going to be able to provide for the family. Isn't that fascinating? What do you think about that?

I. I think. I think. I mean, I know where that comes from. It comes from, you know, everything that my mom taught me growing up about money, that she said that she basically saw her mother, my grandmother, having to ask my grandpa for money because he controlled the finances, he made more money, and she never wanted that for herself. And she, my mom, made sure to instill that same kind of independence in me again. I know logically that is not the case. Babu is amazing. He's supportive. He constantly gives me reassurance that, yes, we are a team, we're doing this together. But, yeah, it's hard to shake the feeling of I will never be able to, you know, I guess, win again.

Yeah. Then, Mel, don't try to shake the feeling. A feeling is a feeling you can't tell someone to stop feeling.

I don't think there's anything that can take away the anxiety of what we've been through over the last few years. I think that's really where. What underlines a lot of our conversations. I mean, I like seeing the numbers. I know we're going to be fine. But that is assuming that both of us remain healthy for the next 12 plus years that we're working Like Babu said, tomorrow's not guaranteed. And so I feel like even though the numbers look great on paper, life happens. Right? And so I think that's why we feel so much pressure to get to our, you know, our goal as quickly as possible.

Life is not guaranteed. You don't know what's going to happen over the next 12 or 35 years. You don't know if anything. We saw that during COVID But the last sentence is where you and I diverge. So you said, therefore, we want to get to our goal as quickly as possible. And the way I look at it is I see this number and I think, I can't wait 12 years to begin finally feeling good. I can't wait 12 years to live my rich life. You got the GPA, you got into medical school, finished your training, you got all these jobs. What other credentials? What other things do you need before you give yourself priorities, permission to finally accept that your rich life starts now.

You can take this one.

I. I don't know what to say to that.

Yeah, I think it's just how we're wired, I guess, and how we were sort of brought up in that. Like, it was always, like we had a goal in mind. We got to the goal, now there's the next thing. I mean, we've been in school. I've been in school since I was. I mean, I don't think I've not been in training since I moved to, like, kindergarten. Right.

So, yeah. What would it feel like if you were to take off the lenses you were wearing, just temporarily, the lenses you're wearing, that currently you see the world through, and those lenses are about mitigating risk, they're about achieving a quantifiable goal, and they're about putting it on a spreadsheet and making sure that we achieve it. Right. Would you say that that's the lenses that you currently look at the world through?

Yes, probably. Yeah.

And they've been great, not taking anything away. They've been great. They have served you very well. You know, you might hear your. Your grandmother's lessons echoing across the generations in your ear. I'm not even asking you to throw them away. I'm just saying take them off for just 60 seconds. Just change your life for 60 seconds with me, and then you can put your old lenses back on. So you take them off, and then I hand you a pair of new lenses.

Hold on.

I happen to have them here. Here's a new pair of lenses. What do you see when you look through these lenses?

My wife's and I's probably favorite restaurant is this place called Kusama in Chicago. It's a Filipino restaurant. It's like small, inside somebody's house. We went there before they got really. And we go back every time we can.

I love that. Tell me more. What else do you see besides amazing restaurants through these lenses?

Being able to fly first class across the. The. The globe, so to India, to the Philippines, and also being able to pay for our parents to fly first class with us.

What does that feel like when you're. You're going through the airport and, you know, they check their bags and you're holding the tickets for everybody say, just come with me. And when they call first class and your parents are just sitting there, because of course that's not them. They're waiting till their seat gets called. And you say, come on, let's go. And they say, what do you mean? And you tell them, what does that feel like?

I think that's been like, a personal goal for both of us is to be able to take care of our parents since they gave us, you know, so much with limited resources. And so I think that would feel. I don't want to say, but sort of like a sense of like, okay, we did it. I feel happy and fulfilled to some degree and like, not really worried about anything at all at that point.

Mel, how about for you?

I think it would feel like we've really accomplished what we have set out to do in our life. Our parents, you know, did. They sacrifice so much for us and, you know, got us to where we are today. It's just one small way that we can pay them back. And I think it would feel. It would feel great. We. We would feel accomplished.

I want you to be able to play that note with your career, with your family, with where you live, everything. I want you to add a level of richness that currently does not exist on a spreadsheet.

I agree with you. I think, yeah, you're right. We should focus maybe a little less on the numbers. The numbers are going to. They're there regardless of which position is taken. The earning potential is there. As far as, you know, the way we talk about what to decide on moving forward. Yeah. Our happiness is. Should be our priority. Thinking about, you know, who we want to come home to, you know, who we want to see on the weekends. Right now it's just you and me that's here in the city and we talk a lot about how we miss our friends, we miss our family. And so being able to add Them into our perfect week, I think would be, it would be, it would be great. And to be able to actually have them physically close so that we can, you know, take them out to eat and with us and they can enjoy some of the experiences that we have together. I think that would definitely. Yeah, that'll definitely. I'll take that into consideration. I think that'll make us happy.

I like this.

The experiences we have together and the people that we're with. I recognize we are in a very good position, a very privileged position to be able to one day, or at least even now, to. To be comfortable, to do what we want to without really worrying too much about money. It's just hard to let that worry go at times.

That last conversation where they talk about their hopes and dreams, including their favorite restaurants and treating their parents to luxurious travel, that made me so happy. It's the first time that I really heard Mel and Babu truly dream. They put away the spreadsheet and the worries and they simply talked about what kind of rich life they want. Mel and Babu are in an enviable position. They are academic rock stars. They have awesome careers and they have really good financial discipline. What they needed was a little help looking into themselves and connecting with their own desires. Yes, you can save enough to build a financial fortress, but a fortress or a savings account cannot be the end goal. You've got to enjoy the journey because as Mel said, tomorrow's not guaranteed. Now let's check in with their follow ups first. We'll hear from Bob.

Hi, Ramit. One of the things we learned on the podcast is that we spent a lot of time talking about our finances and that ate up a lot of our day and impeded our ability to actually just hang out and spend time with each other at times. One thing that surprised us is that looking at how we were structured, our finances were structured, both Mel and I thought we were very behind. But it's nice to know that there is a path forward and that there are things we can do to get to our goals that we had in mind without always looking at the numbers and always looking at the spreadsheet and trying to plot our next move. Now, one thing we're definitely going to change in the future, and we have already, is we've identified things that make us happy. And even if we don't necessarily need it, we're buying or we're spending knowing that like, like it's important to enjoy our time in the present. And we've worked on sort of cutting out the things we don't that aren't really important to us, but spending very aggressively on the things that do matter to us. We really learned a lot from our time together and we appreciate you taking the time to chat.

And now here's Mel's follow up video which just as a reminder, you can watch on YouTube.

So one thing I learned after talking to Ramit is that I spend a lot of time worrying about other people and oftentimes it's at the detriment of my own health and well being. I was really surprised when Ramith pointed out my number that I need to feel financially secure has actually risen over the last few years and unless I address the underlying reason for why that happened, the number will continue to rise. I've realized I spend that I project a lot of my own insecurities onto Babu and those close to me and that's likely the reason why I need this large emergency savings in order to feel okay. I think one thing that Babu and I are going to do moving forward is try to allocate more of our money towards things that'll buy us more time together. That will free up a lot more of our, I guess, brain space so that we can really just focus on enjoying life together. So for example, hiring a cleaner, hiring somebody to cook part of our meals for the week, someone to do our laundry. And we've. We're also looking into getting a fee only financial advisor to offload some of the worries that we have about our finances.

I want to thank Mel and Babu for being so open with a huge decision that they're facing. I want to thank all of you for watching and listening and if you enjoy this podcast, please go on Apple podcast and leave a written review. It really helps. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach youh to be Rich my book. Pick up a copy, you can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics from how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.