14. “I hide my spending from my husband”

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I felt dumb sometimes wanting a Chanel purse as an asset. When he's like, that's not important. We can put our money, that money in investment. I'm like, I know that, but I still want the purse.

If we allocate ten grand a year for you to spend on whatever you want, I have no cares in the world of what you're spending money on. It's when you go to 15,000.

Our seven year old, he knows and he has told me, mommy, don't blow all our money.

I'm frustrated. I can't do more for myself. I feel like I'm working hard and doing a lot to provide for the family. Yet I come last in it. Would like to do more for myself.

There's only so much that people can put up with. I mean it could be years, but it all eventually like crumbled if we don't have the same vision and the same plan. Because that happened to my parents. You know, they split up in their 60s.

I'm Ramit Sethi and this is I Will Teach youh to Be Rich the podcast in this episode I'm speaking To Chuck and Mary. Mary's 37 years old and she's originally from Argentina. She moved to Los Angeles with Chuck, who's 38, and she still feels guilty that she doesn't live close to her family anymore. Their issue is spending. Mary loves to spend a lot on high end luxuries like Chanel bags. And Chuck is starting to feel like he can't spend any of his money on the things he likes.

By the way, he.

His annual income is $450,000 a year. And there's another problem. Mary has started hiding her spending from Chuck.

I definitely hid the fact that I did a cold sculpting treatment and some other skin treatment in my stomach. Cause I had three kids and I was very self conscious about it. So I've hidden that for a long time. I ended up telling him, but it was in a very casual way, like, yeah, you know, I have, you know, they gave me payments, which they're going to be for the rest of my life, you know, and, and it's not a big deal. But the truth is I actually hid it for a while from him and I was scared to tell him because I didn't want him to judge me for it or, you know, or get disappointed at me.

There've been a number of situations like that. I wish there weren't limits and wish to provide for the family to, you know, not have any restrictions in terms of what she could do. But also it feels challenging and you know, that she has to hide it and we can't have the conversation about it or by the time we have the conversation, then, then it's, you know, a more tense place to have it because of one of us feels like the other person did something wrong.

How much did this cool sculpting cost?

It was $7,000.

Okay.

Now is that a little or a lot?

It's a lot.

Based on your income.

I mean, it's a lot. I mean, our income is really good, but we also have a lot of luxuries that we choose to have, like having a full time housekeeper. So that obviously doesn't leave a lot of room for discretionary spending because we need it at the moment. I just think I can figure it out later. I'm like, I'll figure it out later. You know, I'll pay for it with, I don't know, with a gift money or something. But it was definitely something that I should have talked about because it was a commitment and I still have to pay for it even though it was in 10,000 payments. My whole life, all I wanted was things. As a kid I lacked lack a lot of things. And there was so much deprivation that, you know, once I got a glimpse of, like, the good life here in America, you know, Josh and I are not wealthy, but, you know, he grew up in a family that is wealthy. And that gave me access to a bunch of things that I didn't know that they were possible.

Like what?

Like buying a designer dress for my wedding. Like, that was like. I don't know. That was like a truly, like, princess moment for me, you know? And this was early on in our relationship. Once I discovered that good life, I was like, I want it all. I never want to feel deprived again.

Because what.

Because that makes me sad and it makes me feel deprived. And it brings me back to, you know, the years when my mom would say, like, we can't have this because we don't have money and there's not enough. There's not enough. I can't buy you this, I can't buy you that. I can't give you what you want because it's expensive. We're too many. You know, that was another script. Like, we're too many. Can't afford that. You can't have a sweet 16th birthday party because you have four sisters that cannot. So it was all like, I can't, I can't. I can never have. There was a lot of attachment to the material, too, because, of course, once you lose it or you ruin it, there's no more money for replacing it or buying more. So when I had the chance here in the US Especially in such a, like, you know, easy economy, I would say, and access to everything, I just went bananas. We grew up in a very unsafe social situation in my country. There was a lot of crime going on and there was a lot of, like, you know, you know, robberies around my neighborhood, my whole childhood, to the point that as a. As an adult, I still carry a lot of, like, fears and the phobias or I have, like, this fear that something's going to happen to me still to the day. Like, it's something that I battle with. And that's why I go to therapy and, and do other things just to, like, you know, lose that sort of, like, that fear for, like, getting hurt or, you know, something bad happening to me.

I can sense that burden that you are clearly still carrying today. I appreciate that you are so open about it, because it can't be easy. And I can also say that people who grew up in the US in certain parts they might have a sense of what you went through. But in most parts of the US we cannot fathom our currency might be totally devalued tomorrow. It's just not something that we grew up with. So I appreciate you being so open about that.

Try to put yourself in her shoes. Think about what it must have been like to grow up in a country where you had no idea what would happen tomorrow. Most of us in the US Simply cannot fathom it. When we go to the store, we know that $1 is $1. We know there's going to be eggs in the grocery store and there's going to be gas at the gas stations. We cannot imagine what it's like to think about our currency being devalued overnight. You know, sometimes I wish I could take my loudmouth friends to India and let them see what poverty and opportunity there looks like. You know, I had one friend who said to me, well, if I could make it here, I could make it there. And I stopped him right away. I said, let me explain something to you. In my family's house in India, there's a maid. Her mother was a maid. Her mother's mother was a maid. And if she's lucky, her daughter will work in technical support. My friend's response, well, if one in a billion could do it, I could do it. This Western centric way of thinking is pervasive, especially among people who are from small towns and haven't traveled much or been exposed to other cultures. For them, the world is easier to navigate if it's black or white. Successful people work hard, therefore poor people must not work hard. Okay, so listening to her describe her upbringing, it might be tempting for us to roll our eyes, talk about how irresponsible she's being with spending and buying all these things. But we also have to take into account where she came from and where she is now.

450 sounds like a lot. And I don't feel like we have that much for some reason, I guess, like between schools and the housekeeper, like, it doesn't feel like it leaves a lot of room for, you know, things you did earlier.

Say we are not wealthy. Do you remember saying that right now, when you hear that number, would you consider yourselves wealthy?

I definitely will. You know, it sounds like a lot of money. It sounds like somebody that's doing very well in life.

Why don't we change that phrasing a little bit?

It is a lot of money, actually. Yeah. It's just. It is. It is. It doesn't sound like it it is a lot of money, especially for la. I think it's a good, good living.

Okay, great. Give that to me in a full sentence. What is it? I want to hear the whole thing.

Earning $450,000 a year. It is a lot of money and it is a salary of someone that lives very well. Like, it's a good income. Wow.

How'd that feel? To say.

It felt good? Yeah. I have a hard time doing so. I don't know why, because, Because I guess like life in LA and with kids, it's so expensive that it doesn't seem like we're living this lavish, fabulous life of the rich and famous. But it is actually because, you know, when we were young and we talked about, you know, how much we would like to make, this was like a super, like, crazy goal.

You know, this is classic.

I literally have people who say to me, well, it's not like we're rich or anything. We're what I would call well off.

I'm like, you have a fucking net worth of $32 million.

You're rich.

I'm gonna spend a second here because this is an important point. It's not just that this is eternally annoying to me. It's also that part of living a rich life is being honest, being honest with others and being honest with yourself. If you earn $450,000 a year, you are financially rich. You're wealthy. Now, we can argue over definitions and lifestyles, but by any calculation of median income, you are wealthy. Now, are you 100? Millionaire wealthy, billionaire wealthy?

No.

But you're wealthy nonetheless. It's important for you to be honest with yourself because it forces you to take agency for your decisions. It's not that you're just a middling upper middle class person who's struggling to save more. No, you chose to hire a chef. You chose to send kids to this school to buy Chanel bags. Own it. I want you to take ownership of your decisions. And once you're honest with yourself, then you finally own, earn the right to change. But without that honesty, you've created this fake scarcity in your mind. Oh, boo hoo. We don't really have a lot. I mean, sure we do fine, but it's not like we're rich. I would rather you say we do very well and we're fortunate. Here's what I choose to spend my money on. And here's what I don't spend my money on. Ramit, the reason I'm talking to you is that I don't think my Spending is aligned with my values and I want your help to Change that. Or Ramit, we make $450,000 a year. I'm frustrated that we can't buy this one thing. I really want to do it. Why can't we do it?

Great.

I love the honesty. I might tell you, hey, you actually need to earn more in order to do that or you need to spend less on something. But at least we can have an honest conversation. Okay, so no matter what, please stop the bullshit about making $450,000 in your 30s and not being wealthy.

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How much did you want to make?

No, when we were talking about living in la, about even in New York that we consider once he's like, I need to make you know, at least half a million a year. And this was like when we were like young and not really married. So it's pretty crazy that we reach almost that point.

We haven't really traveled. We cut back on a lot of restaurant spending, cut back on things discretionary items that I would like personal training or gym memberships. And I find ways to find the same enjoyment in food and self care in more affordable ways. And I also have cut back in terms of where I'd want to invest and you know, put money to work in other places. And so it's not, you know, deprived in the sense of, you know, living in a Buddhist monastery, but it's, we're still living a good quality life but I still hold back on, on different things that I'd like to do a bit more of.

What do you feel when you hear that?

No, I mean it makes me sad, but it makes me sad because I don't want him to feel deprived because he also is the one like working super hard for that money.

How much money are you going to have to make in order for you to be able to get even one personal training session per week?

I don't know, maybe 50% more right now.

So you're going to have to make $750,000 for you to spend $100 a week on personal training?

Maybe the reality is we should already be able to do that. If that's something that I prioritize and value and want to make happen.

I agree. What I'm really trying to point out here is in the current state you're going in, you're Never going to get those training sessions.

Yeah, never.

It's not about the amount of money because you make a lot of money. And also, when I say personal training, I'm not necessarily saying you're getting five training sessions a week, that's expensive. But even one which could be meaningful to you, the fact that what you just said is I'm going to have to make three quarters of a million dollars to spend $100 a week on something that's important to me and the health for me and my family. That doesn't seem right.

No, you're right.

So why don't you tell. And I don't want you to minimize. I want you to tell her exactly how you feel right now.

Yeah. The way I feel is I'm frustrated. I can't do more for myself. I feel like I'm working hard and doing a lot to provide for the family, yet I come last in it. Would like to do more for myself.

I hear you. I hear you. And you should. I think you should do more for yourself because I would like to see you doing more for yourself because that would inspire me to probably pull back a little bit and also, like, see you happier and enjoying your life and your hard work a little more.

I noticed this role of the pursuer and pursued. You're coming in saying, hey, what's up with the spending? And you're feeling judged, you're feeling guilty. Oh, I. I may have overspent again. Retreat.

Josh pursues a little more, and then.

It all kind of falls apart because you're both dancing with each other, but you already know where the dance is going to go. We didn't follow through. She spent more than we said. And worst of all, there's no real consequences. What's the effect of any of this? And the truth is nothing really. You're living a pretty good life. You have a live in housekeeper. If you want to get certain things, you get it. So really, you both haven't yet uncovered a motivation strong enough to get you.

To want to change.

Is there one?

I don't know.

Actually, there's so much more that we could do. And so it's about this future state that doesn't exist. And maybe there's not enough color or shared vision for what that looks like. I want to accumulate the ability today, over time to be able to do more in the future, because I don't know all the things that we want to do, but I know one, at any moment, our life could get disrupted. Something could happen with the business, and I Want to be prepared in the worst case scenario that if something does happen, we can continue at least sustaining our life until things get back on track. Both of us feel stress because there's some future state. It may be owning more purses or having more things that are important to her. And for me, it's about protecting this ability and flexibility to do things in the future, to have that stability and have that abundance and have those other things. And we might not have alignment around what that looks like from each other's point of views.

Oh, I love this.

Did you catch what just happened? I asked what would get them to change? And he gave me this long, rambling answer. He doesn't even remember the question. He was just talking stream of consciousness. How do you think she responded to that?

The question I asked was, is there a motivation that would get you to change? And you just gave that answer. What did you hear?

I heard nothing.

Correct.

There is no, there's no, there's nothing there that motivates me to change.

Why?

I think because I haven't been concrete enough in outlining things that are motivating her.

Yeah, or yourself. You're speaking academics.

Oh, I want to be able to.

Potentially invest one day in something. What I really was hoping you would say is I want to get a personal trainer four times a week. That is concrete. I wish you would say, you know what? I want to take all of us on a trip to this place and this hotel. I want to take all the kids on a kite surfing expedition. If you heard something like that, what would you think?

That sounds awesome. Let's get to it. But like, I literally hear nothing. It's always the same answer, which I think is very valuable from a business point of view, but from a personal point of view, it really doesn't speak to me.

This is one of the most common things that I see from men. They go into long monologue land. And when I ask them, hey, did you see your wife's face while you were talking? They look at me completely bewildered.

No.

What do you mean?

I'll say, well, what do you think she thought of when you were giving me that answer? And they have no idea. In psychology, there's a concept called social monitoring. I'll give you the simple version of it. If you're a high social monitor, you're aware of the social context around you, you're likely to adapt to it. If you're a low social monitor, you're not really aware and you're not going to change your approach. You're basically going to be the same in every situation, whether you're at the orchestra or a club in the meat packing. The vast majority of low social monitors that I meet are men.

So what's the lesson here?

Don't do that. In your head you sound logical and smooth. If you were to take one second during the middle of your long monologue and look up at your partner, you might realize they are not listening to you at all. They're totally disconnected.

Now.

I would love to spend more time on fine tuning these social skills. If you want to do that, get my how to Talk to Anybody program from my products page.

When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. You Instead you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt Once more gusto.com ramit I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out thought, but for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think out loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean final draft writing inside whatever app you're already using, email, Slack docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages you especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple voice to text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flow. Try it for free at whisperflow AI/ramit. That's whisperflow AI slash ramit. W, I, S, P R flow AI ramit. Or click the link in the description below.

Whenever he gets himself something. Even though I know that we're over budget because of me, I'm actually really happy because I see him like indulging and enjoying and taking care of himself, even if it's like, I need new shorts. And then he got $600 of shorts and I was like, oh, that's a little money. But I'm so happy for you because truthfully, you never do that for yourself and I'd like to see you enjoying the things I enjoy. I'm more thinking about how we can make our life more enjoyable.

Okay, so we're going to get to this right now. Let's actually do it. So what I would like to ask both of you is to really think about the next five years. What are the bucket list items? The things that would be incredibly meaningful to you to achieve. And I'm talking specifics.

So within the next five years, in order for us to be living a rich life, I think I would love to go to Big Sur for every anniversary and stay at the Post Ranch Inn, which is the most incredible place that I've been, and just spend a few days there and enjoy and not worry about, you know, cutting back on alcohol because the bill is going to go up. Also, I would like to treat myself to a Chanel bag every year, which they cost around five to seven grand each. I would like to get a bigger house and decorate it as as I want it. I would like to go to Europe, I would like to go to Greece and the south of Italy, and I would like to go to the south of France. I don't know much about hotels there, but I probably would like to stay at a really nice one and travel business class for everything.

I think there's a lot of overlap in the things that I wrote down. The one question I have is those are the things that matter most. Are you willing to make sacrifices in the day to day, week to week, month to month life in order to achieve those things?

Yeah, if there's a. If there's a plan, if there's a deadline, for sure, and if there's also, I think, not judgment on the other end, just because mostly I never wanted to say the things that they were important to me because I feel like you don't think that they are to you, then they don't deserve to be important at all. I felt dumb sometimes wanting a Chanel purse as an asset. When he's like, that's not important. We can put our money, that money in investment. I'm like, I know that, but I still want the purse.

What can I do differently in order for you not to feel judged? Because truthfully, if we allocate whatever, ten grand a year for you to spend on whatever you want, I have no cares in the world of what you're spending money on. It's when you go to 15,000 that there's judgment around, well, I thought you were going to be able to get what you want with this that we talked about. And. And the judgment is more about going above and beyond than what you're doing kind of with that spend.

I've heard you say it multiple times. You feel judged. I hear it.

And so we've kind of narrowed it.

Down to this one simple, beautiful example of a Chanel bag. What I might suggest to you is not telling what actually makes you anxious. And when you're not anxious and you're not judging here, but you are judging if it gets above a certain amount. What if instead you simply said, you know what? I don't think I've ever really asked you why you love Chanel bags. What does it mean to you to be able to get one every single year? Can you tell me? I'd love to know. Because I want to understand more. If you ask that, how do you think would react?

I would love to tell me, well, let's do it. So what is it about having a Chanel bag that's so motivating and that you're so interested in?

Because I think is the material icon for. I made it for I achieved the rich life. It's such a precious thing in. In the fashion world, but also, like, you know, in the world in general. Like, I feel like as a woman that likes clothes and fashion, having multiple Chanel purse basically is the realization of, like, rich woman, you know, that I always wanted to be like the Sex and the city kind of, like vision of, like, me wearing designer clothes and lunching and having fun with friends. That was like the fantasy that I build up in My head growing up and thinking like, that's, that's what I want to be because I don't want to like, lack things anymore and I want to be able to treat myself whenever I want. So for me it's like, yeah, it's like that, this, like the, the, the birth of the rich life that I wanted.

What did you hear just now?

So what I heard is it's a token or symbol of affluence or respect or prosperity that could prove to herself that she's made it out of the past that she came from and get recognition for others that she's accepted on a different, different level than maybe she wouldn't natively feel comfortable with.

Just funny. When I was little, my parents, you know, they would have months that they were really bad and that we were having like tea and crackers for dinner and then month that they were better. So when my mom would come back from the grocery store with prosciutto and a bottle of Coca Cola, that meant that that month was like booming. It was like my dad was bawling, you know. So this would be basically the translation of that.

Yep.

The handbag goes way deeper than a bag. It's not about function.

It's not frivolous.

It represents something much, much deeper to her.

I just love hearing people talk about what they want to spend money on. I love it. I love that it's conscious. I love that it's so focused. I love that it's a beautiful thing that you've thought about. It's clearly emotionally connected for you. And the prosciutto example is such a beautiful capstone to that. It is your grown up equivalent of getting prosciutto and Coke. So I hear that and I love it. I don't think it's shallow at all. My suggestion is that you could ask 30 more questions about a Chanel bag and she would sit here for the next 15 hours and happily tell you every last detail about every Chanel bag she's ever looked at. Am I right?

You are absolutely right.

Exactly.

I just, I just don't think that he cares about it, so.

But that's what we're talking about because you've never given him a reason to understand why this is important. Before it was just a bag and actually kind of thought of as a frivolous symbol. But what we're seeing is that it's.

Way deeper than that.

It's way deeper. So you could sit and you could learn about these bags and you could ask her a bunch of questions both about the bags, but also what.

What does it mean to you?

Well, tell me about this prosciutto thing. So how often would they come home with it? And then what happened? And would everybody gather around the table? What was that like? And then what? You took one Coke and shared it with all the different glasses. Oh, my God.

That's crazy.

What happened then? What you're starting to get to with these questions is the idea that this bag is not just a bag. It's really a symbol, as you put it, a token. And so suddenly, when you go together to get that bag once a year, maybe you make it a whole thing. Let's go there.

And afterwards, we're going to take that.

Bag in the box and we're going to go to the prosciutto place and we're going to eat prosciutto Coke and enjoy the Chanel bag. It becomes a whole event. If you did that once a year, what do you think would happen in your relationship?

I think feel less judged, more valued, and more motivated to stay on track.

I think so, too. And now I want to hear from. What did you write down for your rich life in the next five years?

So travel was on mine, too. We just did a family trip to Yosemite, rented this amazing house, and the kids, especially after being stuck inside, were able to just get dirty, get wet, explore, and we had the best time. I would love if we could do two luxury trips like that, you know, one with the family and one as a couple where we don't have to be constrained around where we go. We could travel to Montana or Hawaii or, you know, go to Europe. For me, that's the best use of money, are things that create memories and create connection and create those moments where we can connect that we normally can't in each other's life. Two is right now. I hate that we feel stressed to have to pay for private school tuition for the kids. I would love for that not to be a worry for middle school, high school. I want the kids to be able to go to whatever school they want to without money being a gating factor. Three is I would love at least twice a week to have tennis lessons, personal training, some sport or activity that feels selfish that I can do for myself that makes me feel good. And lastly, I also had something around the house. I would love to be able to add a bedroom, redo the yard, Just kind of take our living to the next level, whether it's moving into a new house or doing something with ours. Great.

Thank you very much. That sounds amazing. What did you feel hearing those things?

It makes me happy when he thinks about himself and about his own personal needs. Like, I love that he wants the kids to have good education because we all want that. But I like to hear when he's like, I want a personal trainer or I want to be able to do tennis classes because, you know, it's at the end of the road. I like to hear that he wants to indulge or, you know, enjoy himself selfishly because I am like that. And I have a lot of, a lot of guilt towards thinking that way, that things that are just for me are selfish or, you know, I have to hide it because I feel guilt. Like, it's actually really nice to hear him saying that.

You hear that phrase, guilt? I have a lot of guilt. I want to reframe that for them. I don't feel guilty because there are limits. I love limits with my money. Let me show you why.

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I am glad you both have limits. Thank God that there are limits. I think life is a lot more fun with limits. It gives me something to look forward to. And that is a total reframe on your money. Not only for yourself, but for your kids. What kind of example do you think that they are learning by seeing parents who pull away from each other and hide money and spending and then it blows up and they don't commit to fixing it?

Oh, my kids know. My kids know. It's really terrible. My kids, like, they're like, can we buy this? But we're not gonna tell Poppy. And I'm like, like, no, we shouldn't lie to him.

You know, you shouldn't lie to him. But hold on, don't mention that CoolSculpting thing for seven.

I know, I know, I know, I know. It's like, it's one of those things. Those things, like, do what I say, but know what I do.

So your kids are smart and they're already old enough to have already picked up on this.

Yeah, my, my older kid for sure this or seven year old, he knows and he has told me, mommy, don't, don't blow all our money.

I love that we completely buried this until the end. There are real consequences for not committing to a plan that both of you put together and stick with it. Your 7 year old is already picking up on this. And you both know as parents, once the kid picks up on something and starts doing it, it is 100 times harder to reverse that behavior than to get it right in the first place.

For sure.

Right.

What are the consequences if we don't live a rich life? So in your case, the consequences are actually not that bad on the surface. Oh, we can't get an extra floor in our house and we can't get this Chanel bag and stay at this beautiful hotel. Oh, boo hoo. But when you dig a little deeper, there are some serious consequences. What are they?

But definitely, you know, what we're modeling to our kids, you know, and I don't want to set them for failure because this is how we teach them by modeling. It's like there's so much I can tell them, but if I don't do it, they will never do it.

Kind of like when you grew up and you heard things around you like there's too many and we don't have enough. And how many years later are you still working through those issues?

I mean, I'm 38 years old and I still can get over it.

Yeah.

And so that's good.

What other consequences are there if you don't live your rich life?

I mean, there's a lack of trust and feeling of support and commitment in the relationship and that can't be good for the long term health of a relationship.

Yeah.

No, because there's only so much that people can put up with. I mean, it could be years, but it all eventually like crumbles when we don't have. If we don't have like the same vision and the same plan. Because that happened to my parents, you know, because my mom was an ambitious woman. She was the daughter of someone who had money and she sort of like expected the same from my dad, who came from a more humble upbringing and more like, I just want a 9 to 5 job and be happy about it. And that over years and years of struggling and, you know, in their marriage and with the family and everything, each ended up, you know, they split up in their 60s.

As I always say, the real issues.

Often come out in the last five minutes. You know, it is amazing to me that people will see something broken in their lives like an overbearing parent or a lazy spouse, and then they will recreate the conditions that lead to that exact same thing happening again. In many ways, we are following a map that's been set since childhood, but we can change it now. These two are living a good life. I would say a very good life. With just a few small tweaks, they could turn that into a rich life. But in this case, it takes both of them to make it happen. For him, he needs to speak up and be assertive about what's a priority to him. For her, first of all, she's got to stop hiding expenses. That's just unacceptable. She also needs to create the conditions that let him feel comfortable enough to spend on himself. And for both of them, they need to have honest conversations about what they want, about their invisible scripts, where they came from. And during these conversations, they need to watch each other do a lot of active listening things like, what did you just take away from what I said? Here's what I heard. What do you think of that? If they can do this, they can change their lives in six months. If not, well, they have a preview of what their life might turn out to be. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach youh to be Rich my book. Pick up a copy.

You can get it at any bookstore.

Or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances. Here's what you'll find next week on the I will Teach you to be Rich podcast.

I don't feel like we are working.

As a team when it comes to money.

I mean, there again, there were days that I couldn't afford food. I felt like, wait a second, you could definitely afford food if you were, you know, kind of looking at me and you'd be like, oh, why is this guy walking around with holes in his shoes?

Do you really have holes in your shoes?

Yeah, I have holes in my sneakers that I wear. Yeah.