167. “We took a loan to pay off our credit cards—and maxed them out again”

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He kind of just wants to be able to spend. It's really hard for me to say no.

Ashley is frustrated that Brandon isn't involved in their finances. Do you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon?

Only if I want to purchase like when I was wanted to buy the snowmobile.

She's 29, he's 30 and they are deeply in debt.

We did a debt consolidation loan, paid off our credit cards and then maxed out our credit cards again. I mean every single one of them over $100,000.

They walk on eggshells, but their finances worse and worse.

We've always had this like, oh, we're going to make more money and then it's going to be better and it's not.

And soon they have an important decision to make about their family, one where money will play a central role.

We took out another loan to pay for a surrogate and we lost it and then the money was gone and there was no baby.

She disempowers herself from having the final say in these important financial decisions. Ashley wants to pay off debt faster and you want to live life is that the bottom line. Yeah, Guys, that's not a functioning financial partnership. Ashley and Brandon have a fascinating story to one that I think is very common.

This is going to be uncomfortable.

Let's meet Ashley and Brandon.

Right now. Our goal is getting out of debt. I brought up the idea of selling a vehicle that is not a necessity. It's Brandon struck. And it wasn't an argument necessarily, but just isn't something that we agree on because he doesn't want to sell it.

Okay, paint the picture for me.

I work from home, so if I need a vehicle, I will get up in the morning and I will drive you to work and then I will have the vehicle for the day and I will go pick you up. And I tried to problem solve needing two vehicles. He did not feel comfortable selling it.

What do you say?

He had reasons why? Because we have a boat that we don't use.

What? You have a truck and a boat? Okay, go on a boat.

Sounds fancy. It's not. And he does do some, like, woodworking, builds garden boxes, and when he delivers them, he needs the truck to deliver them. And he just likes the truck. If he wants to haul his snowmobile, he can't haul a snowmobile without the truck. If he wants to haul his four wheeler, he can't haul his four wheeler without the truck.

Is this a joke?

No.

All right. We might as well just get a full inventory of all the stuff you own. So you have a truck, a snowmobile, a four wheeler, a boat. What else?

Pit bike.

What. What is that? Oh, like one of those bikes on the. That goes on the dirt.

Yeah, it's like a dirt bike, but it's a smaller version.

Okay, okay. All right, go on. So you suggested the gentle idea of perhaps selling the truck. And then he said, what?

And it was always like, yeah, I don't think I want to sell it. And that's still where we're at with it.

Okay. All right, Brandon, what do you remember about that conversation?

She asked to sell it, and I gave her the reasons why I didn't want to. And I enjoy having the truck for when I do need it.

Do you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon?

Only if I want to purchase. Like when I was wanting to buy the snowmobile.

How did you bring it up?

I told her that I had found the snowmobile and it was really good price for what it was and that I enjoyed riding them when I was younger and just wanted to get back into snowmobiling.

Is there an ask it there or were you telling her or what was the deal?

She had looked over the budget and we ended up getting a little loan for it and then went and picked it up.

How much was the snowmobile?

2,500 bucks.

What interest rate do you know?

I don't know, Ashley.

I don't remember.

How long did it take you to pay off?

Yeah. Three or four years.

Yeah.

Oh. What do you think about that? I shouldn't have given my reaction the way that's why I don't play poker. All right, well, even knowing my reaction, what do you think about four years to pay off a 2500 loan?

Looking back at it, probably should have waited.

Yeah. For what?

Until we had the money.

So the primary challenge that you're both facing is you have debt and you disagree about how aggressively to pay it off. Is that right? Yeah. All right, Ashley, you want to pay it off, what?

As aggressively as possible. So right now we're paying way over what our minimum payments are to try and get her, especially the credit card debt, paid off as soon as we can. That's kind of been my main focus because the interest rate is so high. And then after that we. I have kind of a debt payoff schedule that's snowballing all of the payments.

Okay. And Brandon?

I was more of minimum payments just so we weren't strapped.

Okay. Do you know how much you spend per year?

I don't know.

I think we spend more than we need to. So I know that we could be putting more towards it.

Okay.

But I know that Brandon has expressed not wanting to stop living and stop having some of the luxuries of life to pay off the debt that we've accumulated. So I'm trying to find some kind of balance between those two things.

Okay. Why are you the one finding the balance, Ashley? Out of curiosity.

He doesn't really have any or doesn't seem to have any interest in figuring out the financial piece of it.

Does that concern you?

It frustrates me. It feels like it's all kind of on my shoulders sometimes to figure out how we're getting out of the debt or when, because things weren't always what they are right now, like salary wise or whatever. But when we have been in a worse situation, I was always the one figuring out where, you know, rent was coming from or how we're paying the mortgage. And now I'm the one figuring out how we're going to know pay off our debt. And he kind of just wants to be able to spend the money.

Why are you the one doing it?

I don't know why he doesn't want a piece of it. I don't know if he thinks he can't. I try and get him to sit down with me to like pay the bills and do it together, but he just doesn't seem to be interested in doing it together.

I'm going to ask again. Same question. Why are you the one doing it?

I mean, somebody's got to do it.

We'll be right back. Real question for you. Do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and Book this year's Appointments today with zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over a hundred thousand doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care, and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. Instantly click through your options, book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com ramitzocdoc.com Ramit what comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport, scheduling a dentist appointment, Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed. We got to pull all this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend guilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gelt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With ghelt, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing. Credits, deductions, business structure. It's handled and their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to Gilt's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation and as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist. Again, that's joingelt.com ramit join G-E-L T.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task with guilt. They can be a tool to build wealth. Let's get back to the conversation. Brandon, what's your reaction hearing Ashley talk about how she describes herself taking on a lot of the financial burden in the house, the responsibility.

I totally agree. I guess I just felt like she had a more understanding and knew how everything worked.

I guess then like when she says, hey, we need to sell this truck, wouldn't you just go, sure, you're the one who runs the money. I'll do what you say.

I mean, I guess, yeah, now I guess it's I've got a different look at things and realize that there is a lot of debt that needs to be taken care of. I do want to get on the same page and get it figured out on what can be done and try to be more involved with it, I guess.

Okay. Ashley, did you know this?

No, this is the first that I'm hearing this.

So should we just make the debt payoff plan right now?

I. I mean that's sounds good to me.

I mean that was the least convincing thing I've ever heard on this podcast. Come on. You have a guy who owns a truck, a snowmobile, and tons of other toys. He avoids money, he doesn't want to sell the truck, and suddenly in the first three minutes of our conversation he says he wants to make a debt payoff plan. I don't buy it. Not in a million years. One mistake here would be for me to simply take his comment at face value, bulldoze through some plan, and then hand it over to them knowing that they are never going to execute on it. There's just not enough foundation yet. So I would rather slow down, try to understand what's going on here. Even if it means taking more time, a lot more time to Push him to get honest.

I guess just growing up, I. We didn't ever have money to do anything or buy stuff.

You grew up poor, right?

Yeah.

When you think about being a kid with your parents, what kind of phrases do you remember them saying about money when you were a kid?

I heard a lot of just, we don't have money for that. I just thought that was how life was. And then after moving out and realizing that there is more than what I had, that. That's what I just had, a poor life.

Growing up, he lived in an unfinished basement. His bedroom didn't have a door. Like, he just lived in a very different way than. Than I did. Like, their. Their holidays were different. The first Christmas I was at his family, there were, like, five presents under the tree for three kids. You just felt like they just couldn't give to them. But I think it also was a combination of couldn't and wouldn't.

What it means.

What.

I think they were a little more selfish with how they spent their money than how my family spent their money. So when they had money, they spent it on things like alcohol and cigarettes and things that his parents wanted and not things that they would go towards their kids.

Brandon, what lessons did your parents teach you about money? Knowingly or unknowingly?

There wasn't a whole lot of teaching. I. My dad had a notebook that he would write down, like, the bills and stuff, and that's how he would pay them.

Ashley mentioned the alcohol and the cigarettes that your parents got. What do you make of that when it comes to spending?

Back then, I didn't really think about it, but growing up, as I got older, I realized that it wasn't something that they needed. It was just something that they wanted.

Mm. What's the difference?

That it wasn't a necessity?

Are you resentful at all?

Yeah, I would say yeah. Just because they made it a priority to spend the money on that kind of stuff instead of things that we could have used. Okay.

How do you feel, looking back on your upbringing? How do you feel about the money part specifically now?

I feel great on the money that we do have.

Tell me more. What do you mean?

I guess just being able to buy the things that I do have and being able to appreciate that stuff and having the opportunity to do those things that I enjoy. Got the four wheeler and snowmobile and stuff. All right. And then I ended up losing my brother in 2018 and just thought that enjoying life was more important.

Important than what?

Paying off all the debt right away? Got it.

Okay.

Sorry about your brother.

Thank you.

So after that happened, you already had debt at that point, and did you just accelerate your spending at that point?

Yeah, I would say it got worse.

Brandon learned that he has to live for today, like many people who grew up poor. And his brother's tragic death obviously played a role as well.

So my parents are divorced, so I had two households, and they were managed very differently. My mom, it was just her in our house, and it was definitely more difficult. She never would say anything about money, but I could tell in, like, how we would eat dinner. Like, I knew that if we were having, like, ramen for dinner, that that was like, a time that things were tight. If we were having chicken, then I knew that that was like a good. A good week that we had money to, like, have meat for dinner.

Wow.

Did you learn to pick up on these subtle signs and then regulate your own behavior and what you said to your parents?

I mean, once I got to an age where I could tell that. That there was a difference, I tried not to ask for things unless I needed it. And I really tried not to ask for things just because I wanted it or just because it was cool to have it or because kids at school had it. I didn't have, like, the cool sneakers or the cool backpack or the cool clothes because it was too expensive. So I didn't ask to shop at those stores. Like, we would shop at Kohl's because their clothes were cheaper than shopping at Abercrombie or wherever kids were getting clothes from.

What lessons did your parents teach you about money knowingly or unknowingly?

To spend money when you have it.

Oh, why is that? Spend money when you have it because.

Because you don't know when you're going to have it again.

So did you learn about anything long term related to money saving? I know it wasn't investing saving.

No.

Okay. No phrases like put money away for a rainy day or something like that?

No.

I'm asking because she dances around topics with Brandon. Like she said. I suggested a lot of things. I told him I would pick him up from work. And people who do this, they dance around, they walk on eggshells. They often learn it from one of their parents. And common examples are an alcoholic or narcissistic parent. Although it doesn't always have to be that extreme. But give me the bottom line here. What is it? Ashley wants to pay off debt faster and you want to live life. Is that the bottom line?

Yeah.

Can we back up and talk about what's really going on? Here. How long have you two been married?

Seven years.

Okay. And how did you meet?

Through Facebook.

Okay, cool. Were you. Did you grow up in the same area?

No, we lived an hour apart from each other.

Okay, what general vicinity was that?

Minnesota.

What age were you when you met Ashley?

17. 17.

Okay. And what was your financial situation between, like, 17 to 20?

Not good. Wasn't making a whole lot of money. She paid for a lot of stuff.

Oh.

From day one?

Everything.

Whoa. Tell me about this.

Dinners, movies, clothes, food.

Did you like that, Brandon?

Not really, no.

I wanted Brandon to get a job. He didn't have a job when we started dating, and he didn't want to get a job.

Huh. Why not?

His family was very different than mine, and I had a lot of ambition and I had a lot of encouragement and motivation at home.

Okay. They, like. They just wanted me to be home as long as possible.

I think just, like, small town, we don't want you going away for sure. Maybe you get some different ideas, but basically, like, family is important and we want to stay a tight unit.

Right?

Right.

Yep.

I think we discussed it for a good, I don't know, six months before I was like, did or get off the pot, basically. And he did get a job that he biked to.

How much did you make of that job, Brandon?

I think I started off at, like, 575.

Okay. Yeah, 575 an hour. All right.

I don't care about paying for anything. I cared about the intention behind him not paying for anything. Even if he paid for one out of 10 things, I was fine with that if he was doing something.

Let's take a quick pause to support our sponsors. When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto. This episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly, and it's incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire onboard, and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k, matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your Existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt once more. Gusto.comit I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out. But for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think of think out loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean final draft writing inside whatever app you're already using. Email, Slack, Docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows, and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it. Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple voice to text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flow. Try it for free at whisperflow AI ramit. That's Whisperflow AI ramit wisprflow AI Ramit or click the link in the description below. Now back to the show. Yeah, it's not about how much somebody makes down to the second decimal place. It's not about what micro percentage they contribute. It's about are we aligned on values. Do you want to work? Do you want to be a partner in this business? The business of running a household together?

Yeah.

So you basically created sort of a soft ultimatum, or maybe it was a true ultimatum, like get a job or get out. Was that it?

Yeah.

Damn. And it worked?

It did.

What do we all learn from this example? Anybody? What is it?

Well, I think it was good that I was more firm in expressing my needs.

You told me you talked about it for six months. And the only thing that got Brandon to change was what?

Giving him an ultimatum.

Brandon, do you. Do you receive that message?

Yeah.

You think that that's true?

Yeah, I do.

Okay. Does she still pay for more?

I guess, yeah.

All right. What do you understand about your family finances.

That I never paid attention to it at all.

Okay, so y' all got married. Did anything change with your finances after you got married?

We did something big after we got married. Maybe you could say that.

Bought the house.

How much did the house cost?

155.

155. Okay. How'd you decide that you were going to buy a house and also how much house you could afford? Can I interrupt for a second? Do you feel like you're being interrogated right now, Brandon? I feel like I'm pulling teeth to get answers out of you.

I guess there is things I just don't know.

Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is to call out the elephant in the room. That is true in business. That is true in personal life. Brandon has been replying to me with one word answers since we started talking. Coming on here, talking about their financial details is uncomfortable. I get that. But I also know that they called me for help. My team prepped them, tells them exactly what to expect. We require them to listen to at least one previous episode and we give them multiple chances to say no before they ever talk to me. So anyone who comes on this show really, really wants to be here. That's why it is extremely hard for me to work with someone if they're not present and they're giving me short one word answers. What I'm hearing is you two don't communicate about money a lot, correct?

Correct.

We communicate about money. When he tells me that he's frustrated that he feels like we don't have any money.

Okay, how often does that happen?

Frequently.

If we're making more than what we used to be, how come we're always so tight on money?

And when you're asking Ashley that question, what are you hoping she tells you?

I guess I was hoping that she would say that there is more money that would we could be spending. I mean, I still want to be able to do stuff and not put ourselves in a place where we can't enjoy doing things, but still want to be able to pay off our debt quicker.

Okay, I'll take you at your word. If that's what you want, I can help you do that.

So you're willing to cut out some of the things that you are currently spending money on?

Yep.

It's kind of an uncomfortable topic in relationships. Talking about ultimatums and boundaries and consequences in many ways feels a little icky. It can even feel like parental, childlike. You know, you give a child a timeout if they don't do something. We don't really want to think of our adult Intimate relationship like that. And yet having standards is so important. So important. Having expectations. So important. I'm sure you have a bunch of expectations, but it seems like around money, maybe not.

I have expectations that I don't want to express because I don't know if he will want to live up to them.

If he doesn't, what then?

I'm afraid of what that means.

Brandon, do you have any financial expectations?

I don't think so.

I think he doesn't know enough about finances to have expectations.

All right, Ashley, I think it's a fair point you make. Brandon may not know enough about personal finance in order to have expectations. Like I don't know enough about cabinetry to have any expectations. Are you okay with that?

No, I'm not okay with him not knowing, but I don't want him to know that.

Why?

I will absorb that burden for him.

Why?

So I feel like it's my job to do that.

Just like it was your job as a kid to tiptoe around your parents when money was tight and you didn't bring up certain things.

Yeah.

Just like when Brandon came to you and said, you know, you were sitting there and you said, I want to you to consider getting rid of the truck. And instead of telling him, I run the finances in this household, this is what we need to do. Let's have a discussion. But this is. It needs to happen. You said, yeah, I could pick you up. And, you know, it's not forever. And you're making all these kind of concessions and promises about the future to try to get him on your side, and it never works, does it?

No.

What is the dynamic going on there?

I'm not being assertive.

Why?

I want to protect how he feels. I don't want him to feel less than. I don't want him to feel unworthy. I don't want him to feel like he should know something that he doesn't know when it's. I mean, it's not his fault that he doesn't know it because he just doesn't know it. And I don't want him to feel bad for that. And so I just absorb that myself.

What are the consequences for your relationship?

I take on a lot of that burden myself, and I think I hold a little bit of resentment because of that.

What else?

I wish we did it together. I wish we held that burden together. And there are things that I expect or I need that I don't voice my opinion on. There are things that he wants or wishes that I don't agree with. And I don't voice my opinion on them because I don't want him to feel unworthy. He has felt that for so long. I don't want to be the person to make him feel that way.

It's pretty deep stuff.

Let me check in with you. Brandon, what are you hearing as Ashley says that?

I know that she's a lot better at handling that stuff and believe that she has good intentions on getting us out of what we're in.

That's just a story. She's better at money because she's taking the time to learn a little bit about it, right?

Yeah.

Ashley, are you great at money?

No.

It's actually the worst of all worlds. You've given her all the work, but you micromanage and say, like, I want money for this snowmobile, I want money for this, and I'm not going to sell the truck. You've put her in an impossible situation. Do you see that?

Yeah.

And I also struggle with telling him no if he wants to buy something, because. Because I know how long he went without. And so when he asks if he can buy something, it's hard for me to say no. And he does work really hard, and so I know he deserves things. You know, it's not that I. It's never that he doesn't deserve things.

What does that word mean, deserve?

It's been a common discussion that he feels that he doesn't get rewarded for his hard work. And so if he asks for something, I want to be able to reward him for that or be able to make him feel like he did a good job or he was enough or he did. He's providing for our family or whatever it is that that's gonna make him feel good.

Are you hearing what you're saying?

I hear it, and I know that I shouldn't, but it's really, really hard for me to say no. Damn.

How hard is it? Because if I'm looking at your amount of debt, you have $261,000 of debt. So it costs you $261,000 to not be able to say no. It's going to cost you probably $400,000 if you stopped spending today. So it cost you $400,000 to not be able to say no? Was it worth it?

I mean. No, it wasn't.

You know, you're actually not doing him any favors by taking all this burden on yourself. Because if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, if something happened to you tomorrow, he knows very little about anything financially. Do you know why?

Why he knows very little.

Yeah. Why?

I control everything.

You've taken on everything.

Yeah.

He has no reason, guys. That's not a functioning financial partnership.

And I'm struggling with. I don't know if I'm supposed to be educating him. I don't feel like I'm supposed to have to, but I also feel like I have to because he doesn't know.

You don't have to educate your partner about money. It could be you, it could be a book, it could be any number of things.

There's.

But the, the. It's less about you, the supply, who educates and more about the demand. Does the partner want to learn about money? Brandon, I don't get the sense that you do. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's never been anything that I've thought about.

So I don't mind if someone doesn't understand the technicalities of money or even the basics. A lot of us were never taught that. But I'll tell you that it's really hard to move forward if they don't want to talk about money or if they simply don't care. And we also need to acknowledge that Ashley plays into this dynamic. She's effectively subsidized Brandon since they first met. I don't just mean financially, I mean handling the labor of the finances. Then she tiptoes around offering concession after concession, disempowering herself, but ultimately never actually saying no. Ashley plays her role, but this is really about Brandon. If he doesn't change, how can they ever be partners? Money is not just something like who's going to water the plants. Money is something that will play a role in their relationship for every day until they die. Money will affect where they live, what they eat, their family, what they do for fun, their safety, even their daily stress level. Ashley is not only financially supporting her husband, she's shielding him emotionally and intellectually. And she disempowers herself from having the final say in these important financial decisions, even though she is the one managing the day to day money. Now, this is really complex stuff. I'm not a therapist. I always encourage my guests to see one. And that's exactly what I told Ashley and Brandon and I genuinely hope that they do. There is another time sensitive issue around money that I want to talk about.

We took out another loan to pay for a surrogate, but our credit wasn't great, so our interest rate is high. And we went through the whole process and we had a surrogate. Like we went through everything. She ended up pregnant and we Lost it. And we went through IVF with her, and the transfer didn't work, and then the money was gone and there was no baby. So we're paying that loan and we have no baby. I mean, I don't want to say I regret it, but we really were motivated to start a family.

So I understand that you're thinking about starting a family. And is there. What's the financial considerations there?

It's expensive. We already. I mean, that is a large portion of our debt right now.

Yeah.

We were using a surrogate, and we had to take out a loan for it.

Okay.

It didn't work. So we have a loan that we're paying and obviously nothing to show for it. So for me, that is a big motivator to get our debt paid off.

So are you thinking of potentially, after you pay off debt, potentially engaging with another surrogate?

Yeah.

Okay, and how much would that cost?

It's probably going to cost at least $20,000. Somewhere between 20 and $40,000.

Okay. All right. So understand. And that is just a really expensive, emotionally difficult process. I'm sorry you had to go through what you've already gone through. That's tough.

Yeah.

Fertility challenges, ivf, surrogacy. These are real concerns for families and their finances, and they are rarely talked about. We really need to shine a light on these important conversations. So I'm very grateful to Ashley and Brandon for bringing this up. Now, let's take a look at their numbers. Assets, $238,000. Investments, 42,460. Savings, just over $1,000. Debt, $261,214. Total net worth, $20,292.

So I've gotten a couple of promotions. So I started in 2018. The salary bump wasn't much when I actually switched jobs, but since then, through different promotions, I've gone from like $41,000 a year to 95.

Damn. All right, take the win. That's cool.

Yeah.

That's $160,000 at age 30. Basically. That's a lot of money.

It feels good on paper.

Yeah. Brandon, what do you think about that?

It's a lot of money.

Okay, where's it all going? We'll be right back after this short break. My team and I create tons of material every single day. Scripts, voiceovers, emails, all kinds of material that we need to be good, and we need it to happen fast. And one of the things we use is Grammarly, especially their new AI tool. For example, every Saturday, we send out my podcast newsletter. I break down an anonymous person's conscious spending plan. And I like going really deep to break down the numbers and show you things you might have missed in your own finances. Well, guess what? That is a lot of copy. Before, it would take my team a ton of time to work through everything I had written and edit it and make it right for email. Now Grammarly does it for us in seconds. Grammarly Premium actually gives us suggestions on how to make our writing more impactful for you. It identifies gaps in the writing and shows personalized suggestions to improve the whole thing. And it can even add images like that, save time with one click, and go from editing drafts in hours to seconds. Get AI writing support that works where you work. Sign up and download for free@Grammarly.com podcast. That's G R A M M A R L Y.com podcast. Easier said. Done. Welcome back. Let's keep going. Well, let's take a look your fixed cost. What's that number right there, Ashley?

91.

That's pretty high. In fact, that tells me right there, you're broke. And yet you do have all these gadgets and fun stuff you're doing, which means that it's going to debt. You've built a flywheel where you're spending more and you're just building your debt up. And at this rate, you know, we can go into the numbers, but probably not be paid off for many, many years. Okay. Your rent, your mortgage is incredibly low. 1100 bucks. Amazing. Yeah, fantastic. Car payments are 600 bucks a month.

That's the truck and that's our gas.

Okay, not bad. What kind of truck?

F350.

Oh, of course. What do you need that to haul?

At the time when we bought it, we had a camper.

Okay. And what happened?

We needed a bigger truck than what I had for the camper.

Okay.

And then we sold the camper.

So what do you do with the truck now?

Use it for the boat or the garden boxes for delivery.

Can I ask you a question? Like, when you used to have the camper, how often did you use it? Like go camping or whatever?

Twice.

Twice total. What the. You bought a F350 because of two times of camping? I know. No truck guy has ever answered this question, but I have to ask. Did you ever consider renting a truck for the two times to use the camper? No, never considered it.

How come?

I always wanted a truck because I never had anything. And when I want something, it's nice to have it.

You've heard me previously say that we can simultaneously acknowledge personal Responsibility and the need for structural changes. Well, here we have both of them. Brandon grew up poor. That affects how you experience money, how you see money, how much you know about money. For example, I can promise you his family was not teaching him about a Roth ira. But we also see that he's made a series of bad choices. Who buys a Ford F350 to go camping twice? And all of these things without actually understanding or even caring about the financial consequences. The truth is, he hasn't really faced any financial consequences. Ashley absorbs them for him. And even on today's call, he's not really engaging with me. He's sitting back waiting for me to either fix this situation or to end this conversation. What I realized is I needed to recalibrate this relationship so he takes an active role in it, and I am not leading it. Now. If you could afford it, I say God bless. Fantastic. Do it. Spend more. But you can't like looking at it. It is so obvious. We haven't even gotten to the bottom of the csp. It's so obvious. And forget about the numbers. Look at your wife. What does she look like right now? If you're looking at her?

Disappointed.

What else?

Sad. Frustrated.

It's like, pretty serious. Do you see that?

Yeah.

I'm here because I'm trying to help again. You guys called me. I want to help. I have a lot of time for you both. I understand that the way you grew up was I didn't have a lot. And so the minute you started earning money, you wanted to spend it on things you love. I get that. It's a very simple story. A lot of people have gone through that story. The problem is you can't afford it, and you have a massive disconnection with your wife over money. Where do you want to go from here, Brandon?

Be more involved.

So I'm going to finish the numbers, and then I'm coming back to you, Brandon, because you're going to tell me what kind of plan you want to make. All right?

Yep.

Your Debt payments are $3,111 per month.

It's not like minimum payments. That includes additional money that we're putting towards debt to get debt paid off. All right.

How much extra are you putting?

So that number to the right, basically.

Let'S just say 2,000 bucks a month. And you're paying approximately 3,000amonth. So you're paying an extra thousand dollars a month.

Yeah.

All right. I respect that. And that's really the source of a lot of tension. Ashley, you're Saying, I want to put this money so we can pay it off fast. And Brandon is saying.

He would like to maybe not put that whole amount.

We're going to recalibrate this relationship. It's been me asking questions. Now it's going to be you telling me what you want to do. Go ahead, Brandon.

I have no idea.

So what's the solution here? The solution is not just to be like, oh, I give up, and, like, let's just keep doing what we're doing, because the path you're on is worse in the future.

So can I jump in on.

No. Because, Ashley, you could solve this problem. You could have solved it years ago. But the problem is you have very murky lines between the two of you. Okay, if you just want to run at home, financially speaking, then run it. But you're doing the thing where you kind of run it, but then you feel bad and you give Brandon all this money. And Brandon can knows what to say to get you to be like, oh, he's done. Well, he deserves it. Nobody deserves anything with money. Okay?

Yeah.

So, Ashley. No, I don't want your answer because you could have run stuff a long time ago. If this is going to work with the two of you, Brandon has to rise up as a teammate. Otherwise, two of you can do this separately. I've worked with a lot of couples in situations like yours. I always ask him, do you want to make no changes, small changes, or really big changes? What do you all say?

What do you say?

Changes, huh?

What?

Big changes?

Okay. And, Ashley, big changes. By the way, Ashley, I love that you asked him first. That was great.

All the truck and get rid of the chiropractor.

All right. You want to see what happens if we do that? Let's try it. I like that. That's an idea. What number should I change?

Car payment?

Yep. And right now it's 596. What should I make it?

I don't know what that would go down to.

Need you to give me an approximate number. No one's going to do it for you. You got to come up with it.

Under dollars.

Great. That took your number down. If you noticed, this was used to be 91% your fixed costs. Now it's 85%. That was a big deal. Let's do it again. What else you got?

The chiropractor.

All right. You want to zero that out?

Yeah.

All right. You sure about that?

Yep.

Okay, that takes us down to 83%. All right. What else?

I don't know.

I want to invite you Ashley, to speak really honestly, maybe more honestly than you've ever spoken before, sometimes it's really helpful to have a third party. Is there something on your mind, Ashley, right now that you want to just have a conversation with your husband?

I want you to want to be involved. I don't need you to know everything. I want you to want to look in to the future. And I don't just mean, like, paying off our debt. I mean saving for things like house repairs, like vacations, like big purchases that. That you want or that I want or that we want for our family. I want you to want to be interested in your retirement. I don't know everything. I'm not going to pretend like I do. I'm learning it right along with you, but I'm learning it alone. And I don't want to learn it alone. I want to learn those things together. I don't want you to rely on me to make all the money. I don't expect you to ever earn a certain amount, but I don't want you to go into any job situation thinking like, oh, actually, we'll just pick up the slack. It's fine because Ashley makes enough money. I'll just take a pay cut because Ashley makes enough. Like, I want you to have that ambition of like, I want to make. I want to do this for my family.

I'm sorry.

You can go through life sitting back like this, and I get the sense that's what you. You wanted to happen today. Oh, Ramit Sati is coming here. Ramit will fix it, fix me. And then you just kind of sit back and wait. This is your life. This is your. Not just your rich life. This is your debt you're talking about. Family planning. Get up, get. Lean forward. Take initiative. Do you guys really want to do this?

I want to.

Okay. What do you want to do?

Do you. I mean, do you want to.

Yeah. I want to be in this together and be able to go through all this and figure out a game plan.

Tell me what you want to do.

I don't know. The truck is the only thing that has a payment.

You could still have an asset even if it doesn't have a payment. Truck still has payments. What else? What else?

Do you own house?

Yep. What else?

Snowmobile. Four wheeler.

Huh.

Bike?

Yep. What else?

Car.

How much would the snowmobile sell for?

If I'm lucky, 1,500.

All right. And the four wheeler?

Probably the same.

$1,500. And the boat?

Probably around the same.

1500. And the pit bike?

600 bucks. Maybe. All right.

That'S $5,100 right there for all that stuff.

It's a decent amount of money.

What about that truck?

Maybe eight grand.

How much do you owe on that?

I don't know, Ashley.

Six.

$13,100. The truck plus the snowmobile, the four wheeler, the boat, and the pit bike.

It's quite a bit of money.

You look torn.

I guess. Yeah.

Why?

Because that's stuff other than the truck is paid for and enjoyment.

This is where you have to decide on what is the most important thing to you right now.

So last year you sold garden boxes and you didn't know if you wanted to do it this year. And I would be okay if you wanted to wait to sell these extra toys, if you wanted to commit to doing something else on the side to make some extra money instead, if the truck still went. Why?

Why do you say that?

I don't. I don't want to, like, just out you but just emotional things. And I don't want to see all of the things that he takes enjoyment out of be taken away from him and see him kind of slip back into those, like, darker places.

Brandon, what do you think about that?

Sell it.

Feel comfortable. I don't want you to feel pressured. It's not my money. It's your money. It's your stuff.

I want to do that, and I.

Actually.

I know you want to, but, Brandon, I'm not getting that from you.

Yeah, I do want to do that. It's just been a different perspective on life after losing my brother that you want to. I could be gone tomorrow, so that's why I have the things I have to enjoy life.

I can understand that. I mean, I can't understand the kind of pain you went through. I never lost my brother, but I can understand how it changes everything for you. None of us listening can understand what it's like to lose a brother. That shatters any reality you had before. It's no surprise to hear Brandon admit that he wants to live more for now than for tomorrow because he doesn't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I'm sorry that Brandon had to go through this. And if you have experienced any kind of loss in your life, I would highly encourage you to speak to a therapist. It makes perfect sense. I see why you have the things you do. If that is what you want to.

Do.

Then maybe that is your journey. But that's not what Ashley wants. And the two of you are married and you're talking about kids.

I think we could have so much more. Like, I know you see what we have right now and you see these things, but I think if we buckled down and got this taken care of, like, we don't make a bad income. And if we got our debt taken care of, like, I. We could have so much more.

I'll show you. I totally agree, Ashley. I think you. You don't actually, Brandon, understand the vision of awesome, of a life you could be living.

Yeah, yeah.

Let's say we get rid of these debt payments, all right? Pay these freaking things off. Your fixed cost just dropped to 42%. That's amazing. That means. Well, first of all, you can start investing much more aggressively. You could be investing. Oh, my God. Look at that. You could be investing 24, $25,000 a year. Okay. While still having more money to spend on the things you love more than you have right now. This debt is killing you. That's why it's driving me insane when we're sitting here agonizing over simple decisions, because I see what's possible for you more than even you see it. $2,000 a month. Just to give you a sense of how much that turns into. I know this isn't even going to seem real, but I'm just going to show you anyway.

I think that's important because I don't think he realizes either what that would turn into. Investing it, because I would love to retire early and be able to experience life later together, too.

So if we just take, you know, some basic numbers here. You have $42,000 invested. Let's say you put in $24,000 a year, which is very realistic. After you pay off your debt. Like, extremely realistic. You could actually put in more than that right there. That's worth $4 million by the time you're 65. That's a lot of freaking money. Let's make it 30. Let's say it takes you a few years to pay off your debt. You're still talking about 2.7 to $3.

Million.

Now, Brandon, when I say that number, what goes through your head?

That's a lot of money.

What else?

We could be living life a lot different.

Like what?

Traveling. I know Ashley really wants to do a lot more traveling, and we could take a lot more trips and go on fishing or snowmobile trips or whatever.

Bingo. Now you're getting it. I feel like you're. Something just happened. Am I the only one feeling this energy right now?

I feel like his whole face changed.

What the is going on right now, Brandon? Tell me.

I saw the Numbers and what they could be.

And then what happened that changed how.

I feel on getting this debt paid off.

Tell me now, what do you want to do?

Sell it.

Sell what? Tell me everything. Yes, right now. It's just you have this huge cloud over you and everything you do is about the debt. Can we eat this thing at the grocery store? What about our debt? Can we? Let's dream. We can't because we have debt. It's all debt all day. And yet neither of you wants to do the things that are going to get you out of debt.

Yeah.

I can't do it for you, but you can.

I don't know. I think we were resistant or in denial.

Are you in denial right now?

No, I'm fully aware that we have screwed up and screwed up and screwed up.

Brandon, how about you?

Yeah, I definitely see it.

I was honestly shocked at how fast things changed in the last few minutes of this conversation. If they're excited, I'm excited. Because sometimes you just need to see that it's possible to live a rich life to shake you out of being stuck. Let's listen to their follow ups now, starting with Ashley.

I was really surprised with how our conversation with roomit went. I didn't think it was gonna be so deep and so much about our relationship and our communication. And it was. And so that's the thing we're tackling first. We've decided we're going to sign up for a couple's counseling. I think that's going to be so great. Not just with financial communication, but just our communication in general. My greatest takeaway was for me said, you know, this is going to be uncomfortable. And even though it was my idea to attack our debt, I also didn't want to be uncomfortable. And there were certain things that I didn't think to get rid of or I didn't want to get rid of certain, you know, subscriptions or things like that. And I wasn't willing to be uncomfortable. And it really hit me that I need to be. It's time to be uncomfortable. We've canceled the subscriptions. We're gonna sell the toys, we're gonna sell the truck. We're going to focus on our communication, getting our debt paid off, putting our extra income towards debt and then 25% towards savings to build that up and really just kind of build a strong foundation of our relationship, our communication, and then getting this dang debt tackled, paid off. And then after that, we're going to be comfortable and. And really just have a better relationship all around.

Extremely powerful. What a moment when she acknowledges that change is going to be uncomfortable and she realizes that she spent years trying to avoid being uncomfortable. I am so happy hearing Ashley's update and now let's listen to Brandon's follow up.

After our meet with Ramit, I realized that there is a lot about our financials that I didn't know and that I need to know about. We have decided to sell off some things to help pay for the debt and we are canceling some subscriptions and I have agreed to go to couples counseling with Ashley.

I'm hoping that they both make a change and they both do it as a team. Ashley has been the leader for so long that she truly needs a teammate. Now Brandon can acknowledge where he came from, what has happened in his life, and he can also choose to create a new chapter of his life together with Ashley. I wish them both the very best. Thank you very much for watching and for listening. I've gotten some feedback recently that I seem to only talk to couples who make a ton of money and struggle spending it. Now I want to tell you that I am listening to your feedback, I hear your comments, I see them, and I appreciate every single one of you who listens and watches the podcast. In terms of our couples, I'm really proud of the diversity on this podcast. We go out of our way to find couples with different incomes, ethnicities, sexual orientations, geographies, ages, and my goal is to be as inclusive as possible to show you every single different type of couple out there when it comes to money and relationships because I want you to be able to take the lessons that they share and apply it to your life. As a result, my team and I are always looking for diverse couples to apply for this show. If you make less than six figures, if you have a different situation that hasn't been addressed on this podcast, I want to hear from you. Please go to iwt.com apply and share your situation with us. Remember that my team and I would love to share your story with everyone who listens and watches this podcast. Thanks again for watching and thanks for your feedback. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach you to be Rich my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.