17. “I think he should pay for everything because he’s the man”

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I did expect him to pick up Bill. When we sat there for like half.

An hour, I was like, I'm not gonna pay for her. I have a drop of her soup. She should pay for it. There have been many instances where we've wanted to break up and we have broken up for days because of the incompatibilities and tensions. But our attraction and willingness to try to fight for each other and be with each other has always brought us back.

I thought he could do more since he is older. More money, more experience.

Do you think that your worldview for your relationship is compatible with hers?

No.

Welcome to the I Will Teach youh.

To Be Rich podcast. I'm Ramit Sethi and today I'm speaking to Pablo and Monique. Today's episode has different incomes, different ages, gender issues, cultural expectations, and big communication challenges. This is the kind of stuff we all talk about behind closed doors, but we rarely get to hear a real couple talk about it in detail until today. Pablo is 33 years old and he makes $103,000 per year. Monique is 23 and she makes $33,000 a year. They've been dating for five years, but they fundamentally disagree on money. Monique believes Pablo should pay for everything, as she puts it. He's older, he's more established, and it's what she grew up seeing. Pablo feels differently. He feels taken advantage of. And you're going to hear some unbelievable stories today, like that soup story. Now, I walked into this episode with a pretty good idea of what was.

Going on, and all I can tell.

You is I was really, really wrong. Let's get started.

How would you describe your vision of money in a relationship?

I would just describe it as, like, love and being taken care of. Like, I don't look at it as, like, the actual monetary value. I look of it as more as, like, oh, you're taking care of me. Like, you're spending money on me, so therefore, like, you must love me and, like, take care of me.

Where did you come up with this message?

Yeah, well, growing up, my family was very like that. Like, we never spoke about money. We just always, like, had it. And if I ever, like, needed something or wanted something, it was never a question. It was just like, okay, you need that or you want that? Like, here you go. And, yeah, just growing up, it was never something that we lacked. And it just seemed like, you know, when I'd go out with my older brother, like, he would always just pay and, like, never expect me or even think to expect for me to offer or pay.

And did you grow up upper middle class, wealthy? How would you describe your financial upbringing?

I believe upper middle class, for sure, yeah.

What about cultural background? Do you come from any particular culture?

Yes. So we're half Hispanic, half Middle Eastern, and so it's like, you're very taken care of. And I'm the youngest of two, my two older brothers and me. So, like, I'm the girl and, like, I'm kind of like the little princess. So they're always like, take care of me.

Can you count the clues? I count at least four clues so far. Before we go on, try to make a hypothesis. What do you think is going on here? And if you were me, what would you ask next? I want you to treat these podcasts like practice because you can use the same questions on yourself and you can use the same questions in your discussions with your partner.

All right, let's keep going. Growing up, did they ever say no to you for money?

To be honest, no. But I was also never greedy or I don't think I was ever spoiled. Like, we work really hard. We own a family run restaurant, so we all work so I think we all just reap the benefits of our hard work. So I always just thought of, like, having, like, that fairy tale love of, like, going out and having everything paid for and just having, like, the more traditional realm, you know, relationship.

Traditional means what?

Like, the guy pays for everything. The guy opens the door, the guy pulls the chair out, the guy waits to kiss you at the end of the date. You know, the guy meets your parents at the beginning of the day. Just, like, very. Yeah, traditional.

Holy shit. What do you think about what Monique just said? In fact, what do you feel when you heard her say that? I want to encourage you to send that clip to a few of your friends, get a text discussion going, and then send me a screenshot of your text discussion. I want to know what your friends and you think about that clip, about what Monique just said, and I think it's going to tell you a lot about yourself and how you and your friends view money. I think your response will actually reveal a lot about you. It'll reveal your educational background, your cultural upbringing, your views on gender and work and money. And I also bet that if we analyze the answers by gender, I think that they would be noticeably different. I don't think we should hide from these conversations. There are expectations around money in every culture, yet somehow in America, we take the most uncomfortable ones and we pretend they don't exist, and then we romanticize money. Oh, it should just work out. My partner should know what's important to me. Love is all that matters. Maybe, But I think it's a lot better to go deeper and talk about what we truly believe. You know, I've been in rooms where a group of women asked one of their friends if the guy paid for the first date. And when she said no, he wanted to split it. The group, in unison, said, ew, that's real. Think about how money is portrayed in movies, in music. Think about the phrases that we use. It's easy to scoff at someone else's beliefs, but what are your beliefs about money? Have you ever questioned them, even interrogated them deeply? Have you ever said them out loud like Monique just did? We're going to find out. We're going to dig a lot deeper here. Let's keep going, because we haven't even scratched the surface yet.

We went to the zoo, and he was nice enough to pay for the zoo entry, and I was really grateful. So I said, okay, since you got the zoo, I will take us out to eat after. And so we go out to eat after. And I think the zoo was like, 50 bucks. I don't really know. And I think total or each? I'm not really remember. Okay, 50 bucks each. And so I take us out to eat, and we weren't that hungry, so I was like, okay, let's just get some appetizers. It was hot outside. Just like, grab little snacks, whatever. And I noticed that he was, like, ordering a lot of food. And I was like, hey, like, why are you ordering a bunch? Like, we're not that hungry. I don't want to be, like, wasteful. Like, let's just order what we're going to eat and like, let's go. And what I noticed was that I felt like he was trying to, like, rack up the bill for it to be equal, for it to be, like, monetarily equal. Like, he spent $100 on the zoo entrance so he would want me to also spend hundred dollars on food. And I just felt very uncomfortable. Like, it was like a tit for tat type thing where he's like, well, I spent this amount of money, so you also have to spend this amount of money. If not, it's not equal or it's not fair. And I just felt, like, very uncomfortable of, like, whoa. Like, I don't look at it that way. I don't know. I just felt really weird.

And then what happened?

And then we fought, and then he paid for the extra food that he ordered and he took home. And so then I felt bad that he paid for the food for his part of the food. So then I ordered more food for him to go so he can have for later. So it was just like a. Like, it's like, oh, shoot, am I wrong? Is he wrong? Like, I'm uncomfortable, but he's uncomfortable. Like, how? How do we do this? Because I just felt like it was like a tit for tat thing. Like, I spent $105.03. So, like, you must also spend $105 and 3 cents.

Let's hear from Pablo.

The entrances were $100, and so she was supposed to take me out to eat, which makes perfect sense. But we had order appetizers. And I thought, I don't think that's going to be enough. And I actually saw a deal that if you, like, for $25, you get like four or five courses more. So I was like, actually, I think we're going to waste more money getting appetizers, where if we actually get the deal, there's going to be more food. And so I think it's actually a better deal for Everyone, I disagree that I was trying to rack up the bill. On the contrary, I was actually trying to be more efficient with the bill. I was like, we actually get more food for less money. So I ordered the food, but then by the time the food came, our eyes were bigger than our stomach, and so we didn't eat the majority of the food. So I was like, okay, well, we'll just have food to go. So then she saw it. I was like, well, I was going to pay for food, but only for the appetizers. You went and took advantage of the fact that I was going to pay for it, and. And you just order more food, which was not the case. And so it was super awkward. And we actually got in a fight where, like, I was like, you know what? If it's that big of a deal to you, like, I'll pay for the food. They are ordered, and you can pay for the appetizers. And so your whole idea of I get one thing, you get the other thing, or I get the date, you get the meal, the idea is ruined when, like, there's a certain sal or there's a certain cap on how much you're going to spend on the. On the date. And so then it becomes unequal. We're like, well, I can spend millions of dollars on a date, but the food, like, ooh, can be too much.

I've never met a couple that would have this argument about money if it were not much deeper in the relationship. Is that true?

It's very true. There was actually a very early incident in our relationship. Monique was still in college, and she had just had, like, a very terrible week with a bunch of midterms and papers and tests and all like that. So then she, after writing a paper, she turned it in, and she's like, well, I'm really hungry. Let's go out to eat. But I had already eaten. So we went to get Thai food, and then she just gets the soup, and then the bill is there. And then we're just sitting there for maybe 20, 30 minutes, making time. She was expecting me to pick up the bill. I was expecting her to pick up the bill. And then we got into this really awkward conversation of, like, I. Let's go. She's like, all right, well, let's go. I was like, okay, well, are you going to pay for it? And then it was just like, whoa, but the gentleman is supposed to pay. And I was like, okay, that's fine, but I didn't need anything. And you're the one who wanted to get food. So it only makes sense that if you're hungry and you want to get food, like, you would pay for it.

What happened was I was, I was sick and so I was like, oh, I really could use some soup for my throat, like all this stuff. So in my mind it was like, oh, pay for me, like, whatever, like my servant, whatever. It was like, hey, like, I'm sick. So the fact that, like, he didn't pay for it while I was sick didn't make me feel like he was taking care of me while I was sick.

Okay, notice the tiny clues that are starting to emerge. Monique mentions taking care of me a lot. It comes up in her upbringing and it comes up when she's sick. Pablo mentions three fairness. He doesn't feel it's fair to pay for a meal when he didn't even want to eat it. These are two totally different perspectives on money. And those perspectives, I call them money lenses, are the ways that they view the world so they can be in the same restaurant, sitting at the same table, eating the same meal. And when the bill comes, they're both looking at it and seeing completely different things.

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Ramit.

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It was like a $10 soup, but it was just not even the monetary value. It was just like the feeling behind not being taken care of when you're sick. So I like I did expect him to pick up the bill and we sat there for like half an hour.

And if he picked up the bill, what did it mean to you?

That I would feel loved and taken care of. Especially in a moment where I wasn't feeling well.

And if he didn't pick up the bill, what would that mean to you?

That he didn't care enough to take care of me.

Which means what?

He doesn't love me. I don't know.

Just like that. From a $10 soup to a feeling that my partner doesn't love me. Do you see how short that link is?

Soup to love?

Just one hop. But do you also see how obscure that link is? You think Monique ever acknowledged that to her, soup means love? I doubt it. In fact, I doubt she even consciously admitted it to herself. Before today.

Pablo just saw it as soup. Soup.

He didn't even eat. Why should he pay for it to him? That's not fair. But her money lens is completely different.

Pablo, if you picked up the bill for her, what would that mean to you?

That would make me feel that I'm being taken advantage of or that I'm being used. And this obviously comes from previous experience where I have gone on dates and felt used or just like. Yeah, utilized to pay for someone's meal, obviously.

Can you share an example?

Yeah, just a couple of dates that I've been. So I used to travel a lot for work and when I was in the country, for example, for Mexico, it's very expected in Hispanic culture, as Monique says, that the guy pays for everything. And so I would go on dates and I wouldn't be sure if the girl was actually interested in me or just wanted me for my money, especially since I was American or the international man of mystery. It's not that I was showing opulence or affluence. It was just. It was implied that since I was an international man that I had money. And so I became very defensive with my money. And so whenever I would go on dates, I would be like, well, I'm not going to take you out just because, like, I have money. I want to share this experience with you and have it be a together experience. Even before this fight, there was a lot of tensions building up that maybe I didn't express to Monique where, like, we would go out to dinner and. And she would not offer to pay. Not even, like, do the check dance of like, oh, let me try and be like, no, no, it's okay. She would just sit there and I'll be like, okay, like, are you not even going to pretend to pay? And so there was a lot of tension building up to that. So by the time that the soup incident came, what? I didn't even partake in the meal. I was like, why am I going to pay for this if it was not mine?

Okay, if she had done the check dance, the fake offer, would you have appreciated that?

Absolutely.

What would that have made you feel?

That would have made me feel that I'm not being taken advantage. Even if it was a fake check dance, I would have been like, oh, thank you for offering a pay. I really appreciate it. But don't worry that then that would not. I would play the gentleman card of like, don't worry, I got you. It's okay, I'll pay for it.

But it's like, that's very interesting. Why? Even if you knew that she didn't intend to pay. You would have felt better about it.

Yes.

Why is that?

I'm just going to reiterate the point that I really do not like feeling being taken advantage of because it's happened so many times in the past.

Oh my God. This is absolutely fascinating.

Okay, take a breath for me.

Just calm down.

Okay.

What do you notice? At first, Pablo mentioned fairness. Okay, fine. Then suddenly we find out he's had a history of feeling taken advantage of because of his money. Now I'm starting to get it. That soup isn't just a $10 soup to Pablo either. It represents something a lot deeper. The most fascinating thing he said was that he would have loved to see the fake Czech dance. Did you catch that? First of all, the fact that everyone knows what the fake check dance is.

That's when somebody pretends to offer to.

Pay, but they don't really plan to. That is telling. Because it's a real thing. It means that to Pablo, symbolism matters. I actually think symbolism matters to all of us. A lot of us are utilitarian with our money. We, and I'm overwhelmingly talking about men with this point. Describe the things we buy in terms of functional use. Well, yes, I bought that iPhone because of the superior storage and the 16,000 megapixel camera. And I bought this car because it.

Has over the air tech updates.

Maybe. Or you might have just bought it because guys you admire also bought it. It's no surprise that if you ask guys who their style role model is, over 90% of them will give you the same answer.

You know who it is?

James Bond. You think that's functional or practical? You don't even wear a fucking suit. Symbolism matters. And Pablo is acknowledging that. If Monique had offered to fake paying for the meal, he says he would have been happy. In fact, as he puts it, he would have, quote, been the gentleman. Notice how that identity creeps in. And he would have happily paid. Monique wants to be taken care of. Pablo says he wants fairness. But I think what he really wants is a lot deeper.

It should be equally expensive and as well as equally productive towards each other.

What does that mean? Equally equal could mean 50. 50. It could be 66, 33. What is equal to you, Pablo?

Yes, I do make a lot more on paper. However, in terms of cost of living, it comes down very equal or even more beneficial to Monique. Because as I told you earlier, I live in la. I pay rent in la, pay for food, pay for student loans, car insurance, gas, all these things. So my high salary at the end of the month. I come out with like 2 to $300. Like, I'm up to here.

I don't love the idea of factoring in your expenses when it comes to the contributions. Those expenses are your expenses, right? You chose to go to college, you chose to get a car. That's $35,000 plus, et cetera, et cetera. Your expenses can. Candidly, they're yours. And so your income is definitely. You know, you two should talk about that proportionately, and you two should figure out what works for you. But I would say, typically in other relationships, expenses are not a primary part of the proportional contribution discussion.

Okay, to be honest, even before we started this conversation, Monique and I, even though we've been dating for almost five years now, we've never really had a concrete discussion about finances.

Well, you guys certainly have fought a lot over soup, right?

That's true.

Those are discussions.

They might not be productive, but you've.

Had a lot of discussions. Right? But I never really known her income and she's never really known mine, so I've never.

Until now.

Until now. Until three days ago when we started filling out the financial worksheet.

This is blowing my mind. So both of you put down your numbers on paper. Did it surprise you, Pablo, to learn what Monique makes?

Yes and no. Yes, because I thought she was making more. And no, because I know that she's focusing on her singing career. So she's not really working. She works at her parents restaurants. I'm like, okay, well, that makes sense.

Okay. And Monique, did it surprise you when you saw the numbers with Pablo?

No, because I could. I could kind of just estimate. But he's always been very secretive, and I never appreciated that. Secretive about his finances. Like when we first started dating, like, he wouldn't be open about it, whereas, like, I would be happily open about finances and how much my parents make and all that stuff. But he never. He never shared and was always, like, very protective of that information. So I felt like, okay, like, I guess I should protect that information of myself as well.

If you'd heard this at the beginning of the episode, you might just think Pablo was weird. But now, knowing his history of feeling taken advantage of, we can all start to understand his behavior. Understanding doesn't mean you agree with, just means you start to understand it. I remember being in a social psychology class at Stanford where we were talking about human behavior and persuasion. And as you study this stuff, you realize that behavior is actually a lot different than most of us think. You also start to realize what they call the power of the situation, which is a profound concept in social psychology. It means that most of us believe we do things for very rational reasons. I was hungry, so I bought the burrito.

I was tired, so I decided to lie down.

Or I'm a generous person, so I donated to that homeless person. What social psychologists know is that we can create conditions that dramatically change your behavior. We can create conditions that make you less generous, like the famous Good Samaritan experiment. Or we can create conditions that make you administer electric shocks to people. We can even create conditions that make you more compassionate. In short, the situation around you has a perfect, profound effect on what you're doing. And guess what? Most people have no idea when you point it out. Hey, we ran an experiment, and you did X because of Y. We isolated the variables. They deny it. In fact, they get mad. Why? Because we desperately want to be in control of our own behavior, but we're not. And as you start to learn this material, it radically reshapes the way that you understand other people. I remember having these revelations about human nature as I was taking these classes. And that's why, 20 years later, I am still obsessed with human behavior. It's why I'm doing this podcast. The reason I shared all this is a phrase that one of my professors told me, which is, you don't have to agree with his behavior, but at least now you understand it.

When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto. This episode Sponsor Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly, and it's incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire onboard, and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt once more. Gusto.com ramit I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out, but for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think. Think out loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean final draft writing inside whatever app you're already using. Email, Slack, Docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows, and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted.

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Let's say you go to a restaurant and the bill is a hundred bucks and you both pull out your credit card and you tell the server, can you split it 50, 50? What would be going through your mind at that moment?

It just feels like a business meeting or just like, you know, just not someone that, like, I'm in love with or. I don't know. It just doesn't seem nice to me. I don't know. It's hard to describe.

Keep going.

I don't know.

It's just not the way I was raised or what I saw growing up or even with my friends. Like. Like their parents would just be like, oh, I'm paying for you guys. Like, go have on us. Like, we would never split anything. We would always just pay each time.

Did you ever see your mom splitting something with your dad?

Never, ever, ever.

Okay, so let's fast forward. You know, let's assume you two work this out and you continue your relationship and perhaps get married. Perhaps not. Whatever the case, and one day in the future, you're sitting down for dinner, you had a nice dinner, you got dessert, and the bill comes. Monique, in your ideal world, who's the one who pulls out the credit card?

To be honest, and at that point, I wouldn't mind pulling up the card because I know we would have a joint account, and I would know. You know, I'd be confident in knowing, like, what the tip and how the server did and all these things. So at that point, I wouldn't. I wouldn't mind because it's our money.

And what's different about that future versus where you are today?

Because it's not a joint account. And I think he's. He's older, he makes more money, he has more experience. So I feel like that's his role.

Why is it his role?

Because he's pursuing me to be, you know, hopefully the mother of his children one day, like, his partner. So, like, he should invest in that future by, like, taking me out and, like, building our relationship and all these things. Because, like. Like, he. He says 50 50, but I don't think it is 50 50, because, like, in the future, like, if I have our kids and all those things, like, that's not equal. Like, I'm gonna have to, like, carry a baby and, like, push it out of my body and, like, all these things, like, he's not doing that. So I just feel like already, by his age and his experience and the money he's making in him being a man, it's not 50 50. So I don't think I should be expected to pay 50 50.

I disagree completely with that philosophy.

Okay, tell us.

Okay, so, like, I've. I'm older, and I've had more relationships, and I've had the three types of relationships. The one where I actually don't pay for anything because the girl is making more money than I am, and I wasn't employed at that time. And I know that that. Or at least for me, that didn't work. There's a lot of money tensions. And I also didn't, like, feeling like I was being supported or, like, lifted up. I felt just incorrect. I've had relationships where it's been 50 50, and those have been the best relationships, in my opinion, because money was never an issue, like, at all. As I said, we were both partners. We did experiences, dinners, dates, everything. And everything flowed very smoothly. We never even spoke about Monique. Even if the girls had more money than I did, which they did, actually, everything was 50 50. And then I have this relationship where, like, I'm expected to pay for everything. And there are some keywords that Monique threw in there that I've actually have had fights with her mom about me being older, me not being a man enough, because, like, I don't I can't take care of her. I don't have enough money. I don't have a.

Her mom said these things to you?

Yes.

How'd that come up?

Before we go on, I just want to say.

I fucking know the answer to this question. I was raised by Indian parents in an Indian community. All right, let me just break this down for you. The families meet. This is before there's an engagement. And the families are deciding whether to have an engagement at all. Yes, I said families, not just the two individuals. There are lots of delicate questions in this first meeting, like, oh, where were you raised? And if you were just an observer sitting on the couch watching, you would.

Say, oh, how nice.

They're just getting to know each other. In reality, both families are asking a highly detailed set of questions to determine the answers to things like, do they.

Come from a good family?

Are both of our families going to be able to get along? Do both of the kids have the same values? You see, for lots of cultures, when two people get married, the families are getting married, not just the two individuals. And the social consequences of divorce are much, much more severe.

You have to remember that until recently.

What we thought of as love marriages were not nearly as common. You can read more about this in a book called A How Love Conquered Marriage by Stephanie Coutts. It's absolutely fascinating, and this is a great reminder for all of us that in money, culture matters.

I was living in the Middle east, and I figured it's Ramadan, so I have a week break, we can meet each other. But her parents are more traditional and more conservative, so, like, we would really not like for you guys to travel together unless there's, like, a bigger commitment. And so I was like, well, what do you mean, bigger commitment? Like, I'm totally devoted to your daughter, and, like, I want to be with her. And that's where mom was like, yes. But I worry that, like, if anything happens, I don't know if you're going to be able to support her. You're, like, already 30. You don't have a house, you have all the student loan debt. Like, I don't think you have enough to support her. And so I withheld my desire to go on a trip with my girlfriend just to keep the peace. However, there was a seed planted in my mind of, I'm not enough. I need to make more money. And so when she says that Pablo needs to be pursuing me because he's a man and that he should get me because I'm the prize, I'm Just like, that's where the philosophies clash, because I'm like, well, I don't want to pursue you because you're the prize. I want to pursue you because I want to be partners in this thing. In my old job, I was very, very high income. In the worst month, I would have 4,000 net. I was anywhere between 4,000 to 15,000 in a good month. And I actually gave that up once I met Monique because I really wanted to be with her. And so for two years, I was basically unemployed and living on savings alone. And so with student loans and all these things. So, like, my savings were depleted, depleted, depleted, depleted, depleted, depleted. And Monique never saw this. She was just like, oh, well, he's coming to my house for free. It's like, well, I am coming to your house eating for free, but I'm also not making any money to be with you. So it got to a point where I was like, I literally have $34 in my bank account. Like, I need to go do another project. That actually was a snowball effect because that. I think that's what led to the discussion of her mom being like, whoa, how are you 30 and have, like, $30 in your bank account? You can't provide for my daughter and all these things. But, like, they didn't see the whole two years beforehand where I was, like, not making any money and ensuring that Monique graduated with the highest marks and, like, helping her with her homework and with tutoring her and stuff like that, and her helping her with her music career. So, like, I sacrificed a lot of my income to be with her where. And so I didn't feel the compensation of, like, yes, you do feed me, but I should pay for everything else.

But also, to be fair, her parents didn't know that backstory because you didn't tell them that.

Absolutely.

Yep.

So there's a lot of missed communication here, a lot of things that each of you are bottling up without the other person knowing and then expecting for them to magically see it your way.

Absolutely.

Starting to unfold now.

I was frustrated because I was like, okay, guys, I'm not ready to get married soon anyway. So it's like, if he's not up to your standard or whatever, like, stop being so hard on him. I mean, I understand where they're coming from, and I. I respect them and I appreciate their concern, but I also understand where. Where Pablo's coming from that, like, you know, life is hard. Like, he has student loan debt. Like, I shouldn't be expecting him to just, like, pay for everything and just, like, be a bank for me. And that's not what I expect. Like, I don't want you to get the wrong, you know, opinion, but I just. I don't know, I just felt that, like, since he was older, he had more experience, he had more time working where I was, like, literally a freshman in college when I met him. I just expected for him to do more since he had more experience, time, age, money, all these things. And maybe I'm wrong for thinking that I'm not.

Do you think you're wrong?

Well, I don't know. Like, from all the pushback from him, it's got me thinking of, like, okay, am I wrong? Like, I thought I was in my right to think he could do more since he is more older, more money, more experience.

Keep going. Now that you've started to question what.

Is coming to your mind, that even though he may have more, more, I also recognize that, like, I lived a very comfortable life and I haven't had to work as hard as he has. And I, like, I recognize that. So that's why I'm definitely happy now. Paying more things. And, like, I would think he would agree that, like, I have been paying things and, like, buying things a lot more than I did before. And I just try to be generous, as I think I am a very generous person. And I would never want it for him to be 100% giving me and me just accepting everything and not giving anything back in return.

One of the things I hear from.

You, Monique, is that you have made a lot of changes intellectually to respect what Pablo does, how much he earns, how hard he works, and even his expenses. I hear that, and I hear Pablo appreciating that. But I also you using words like weird and not what I expected. And I hear that you may be reckoning with this intellectually, but emotionally, it's still difficult for you to accept paying for certain things, like meals. Am I getting that right?

Exactly. Yeah. So, like, mentally, I. I'm on board. I get it. I respect him. I understand. But emotionally, I'm just like, ah, I don't know.

Keep going.

I'm just like, okay, he should take me out. Like, we should just do what they do in the movies or like, what I've grown up with. Like, this is just what I've known and expected my whole life.

And fast forward that movie for me. So here you are, and you eventually get married, and you know what happens throughout the rest of your life with this script that you're working with.

Yeah, well, hopefully, like, when I'm older and have my own business and do all these things, like, I'll obviously make a lot more and own property and have different sources of income and. And I think with building a family, it should be 50, 50. But I. I still think that certain things aren't 50 50. Like if I'm pregnant, for instance, like, and I can't work, is he gonna expect me to pay for half the, you know, mortgage and things like that? I just, I would hope he would think to take care of that for me because, like, I'm doing something that he couldn't do or, you know, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Yeah, makes sense. Let me parse that a little bit. So you want to become an entrepreneur at a certain point, do you expect your income to go up from 33,000 a year?

Yes, of course.

Okay. Any sense of what income you think you'll make, you know, in the next five years or so? You can ballpark it for me.

I mean, hopefully I'll take over the family business. I have like one third of that, so I don't know, probably like 200. 200. I don't. I really don't know. That's fine.

Let. Let's say 150, just for conversation sake. Okay, so at 150, if you were making 150, and at that point, let's say that Pablo's making 150 as well, what do you think happens when you go out to a restaurant to eat? You know, how's that getting paid for?

To be honest, I would still appreciate it if he picked up the bill, even if I'm making even the same as him.

Yeah. It's not a number for you, is it? It doesn't matter if you're even making more than Pablo, you still expect him and want him to pick up the check, is that right?

Exactly.

I'll go back to my original thesis that I still want it to be a partnership where if we both make 150, we all dump that into the joint account. And then at that point, I feel like it doesn't matter. Like, put out the credit card and it'll be the same. It'll come from the same source. Or if Monique pulls out the credit card, it'll come from the same source. So I think at that point is a bit of a moot point when we're both aiming at the same thing. And so I'm not entirely in agreement with, like, if she's pregnant, I would Never make her pay for half of the mortgage. Because that doesn't really make sense if we're both paying for the mortgage at the same time with our joint account.

Okay, let me ask a question. Today, let's say that the two of you took your money and you put it into a joint account. Today, Pablo, you put $103,000 into that. Monique, you put $33,000 into it. Okay. You go out to eat at a nice restaurant, it costs you 150 bucks. Are you both comfortable pulling out the joint credit card and paying for that dinner?

Absolutely.

Yes. Well, that's easy. I mean, we can end this conversation right now.

Is that all it takes, having a.

Joint account and pulling out one joint credit card? Is that all it takes for you both to feel good about money in your relationship?

I don't think he'd be comfortable. I think he would be upset that I'm putting 33 and he's putting 103.

I would be much more happy. I would see tangible efforts that are not. With some sort of, like, poison behind it or like some sort of, like, sting behind it. If, if, if the joint account is used like, that makes much more sense. I feel like there's a skin in the game on both, on both ends.

Wow. What the hell's going on right now?

I didn't think that a joint account would magically solve all their problems. I actually still don't really believe that it will. But, hey, I'm gonna lock in the win and take it if I can.

All right.

Notice, by the way, that if I had suggested a joint account at the very beginning of our call, it would have totally failed. We had to go through this process so that they could both acknowledge all the things that they're feeling before we could get to some solutions. So I'm giving a little bit of advice about the joint account, but really, I don't trust that this is the end of it. I think there's something more going on.

There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent. And I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where BILT comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month. And you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible, so you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, BILT recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026.

So stay tuned.

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I think you guys could start off by picking a number that's comfortable for both of you. Like, it literally could be a hundred bucks and one hundred thirty bucks or whatever the proportions work out to. It could be small, but at least you both feel good. You do that for a month or two, you go, you know what? After the third month, let's adjust the numbers. But for now, let's just start off really small and comfortable. We'll go out to a couple of desserts. We'll feel good. We'll develop new rituals of who's going to pull out the credit card. But it's not really about the dollar amount, is it? What is it about instead, Monique?

Just feeling appreciated and loved and it. Feeling fair.

Yeah. Good. Feeling fair.

Thank you for saying that.

Great word. So you two are basically creating like.

A whole new ritual.

And this takes. It's deep. It cuts deep because both of you have these expectations and these invisible scripts.

But now we're starting off just like.

With almost plain money, just small amount of money. We're saying. Okay, in the past, you used to sit here and look at this Thai soup getting cold, and both of you.

Are just, like, getting so mad. And now you're going to have to.

Rewrite that into something different. Okay?

And both of you are going to.

Have to play a part in doing this.

You're in this together as partners.

Okay? How would that feel to you?

Pablo, you hit the word you just said right there. Feel as partners. That literally, like, gives me butterflies in the stomach.

Yeah.

Monique, what do you think about when you hear Pablo say that?

Yeah, I'm definitely happy, and I feel relieved that we can come to an agreement where we both feel. Feel seen.

Okay? Love that. Now, the second part a little, which is much harder, is that emotional part of expectations. Monique, you have expressed multiple times today that you see money as being taken care of, that you see it as love. And down to if he doesn't pay for a certain date night, that deep down that means he doesn't love you. Pablo, you have expressed the word fair and equal and partners to her. Those words seem transactional and cold to you. It's logical and you definitely do not want to be taken advantage of. Do you think that your worldview for your relationship is compatible with hers?

No. And this has been in the back of my mind many of times and we have had plenty of fights about this. We're compatible in a lot of things. Interests, family, backgrounds and stuff like that. But in terms of philosophies towards life, we are incompatible in a lot of things. Finances being one of the major ones.

So what do you want to do?

I keep. We keep having discussions on him. We keep working at it. Five years is a lot. And so we keep growing a lot. And I keep. I keep working with her.

Pablo, one thing that I didn't hear you say to Monique was I would love for you to be more generous. What would that feel like for you?

It would relieve a lot of stress and resentment that I fear towards relationship. She is generous in her own way, so I will give her that. She is quite generous. However, I think there is a misunderstanding of what I would appreciate as being generous to what her she thinks that she is being generous in.

So just say it. Pablo, be specific.

Yep. Monique, I love everything that you do in terms of giving me food and writing me letters and doing all these little tiny cute gifts. And I definitely appreciate them. But to be honest, some of the generosity would be better felt if it was more on the financial department when we're doing dates or activities together. It would make me feel much more appreciated and I would look you in such a strong light, an even better light than I already do.

I mean, I appreciate that and I definitely take that to heart and I would def. You know, I mean, it's hard because like, like you said, I am very generous in many different ways. So I thought I was good, you know, I thought I was doing a great job, so. But he's never actually have said those exact words, so it's hard for me. You know, I always tell them, like, I can't read your mind, like you need to tell me things because I don't know what's wrong.

And I think it's because We've never really had a serious money discussion until now, so we've never been able to address those issues straight on.

Five years into this relationship and they're starting to admit to each other and to themselves what they really need to feel loved. Now watch what happens.

Are there any questions that I can answer for you today?

There is an upcoming trip. We do have our first official trip after five years coming together, and we're going to Mexico City. And it actually is timed perfectly because I bought tickets to go see the Formula One, and I think it's going to be a great experience. Obviously, I'm a big fan, and Monique is getting into it, and then she has her award show in Mexico City. So the tickets, to be Frank, there were $2,000 or like $1,000 each. I would say it would be completely fair that I covered the tickets. And then she would pay for housing and food in Mexico, which would make it equivalent or probably even less. It would probably be like, I spent two grand, she spends one grand. We actually haven't even begun discussing this, but I already know. Know that it's going to be an issue.

Well, first of all, I had no. I had no idea those tickets were. So it's two grand per person or how much?

No, a thousand dollars per person.

Okay. Okay. I had no idea that it was that expensive. I thought it was two grand for your whole family, because I bought. You bought tickets for your whole family, right?

They were five grand.

Okay.

Yeah.

But that's the thing is I didn't. I didn't know you were buying me tickets or that we were even going to that.

Of course. And I wanted to surprise you. And so, like, you don't have to worry about the cost of the tickets because, as I've done every time I've taken you to a concert of the bands that I like that you don't like or that you don't know of. I always cover the tickets because I'm bringing you to my experience. But then the shared experience, which is Mexico City, like, I feel like we can share that.

Yeah, share it.

50.

50. But not that I pay for all the food and all the housing.

Well, okay. It's gonna be less than $2,000. It's gonna be, like, less than a thousand dollars for sure.

Okay. And that's fine. But you went ahead and bought the tickets without me knowing about it and without knowing the price, and you're already expecting me to pay for all of the housing and all the food, which I had no idea about.

What is going on right now. Two minutes ago, everybody was hugging and we were singing around a campfire. And then we started talking about this trip. And did you notice, they both went right back to their corners. All the good feelings, all the understanding they developed went away and they went right back to their old style of fighting about money. This is totally normal. Everybody feels really good, you know, Oh, I realized something about myself and my partner. Oh my gosh, I love him. I love her. But when it comes to applying it for a real world situation, we go right back to our old patterns. So we're going to pick this up and you're going to discover even more beneath the surface when we continue on next week on the continuation of this episode of I will teach you to be rich. Thanks for listening.

It's just like a weird feeling to have you buy something for me but then turn around and be like, okay, since I bought this, I'm gonna make you pay for all the food and all the housing. So it's like, you're not inviting me. You're making me pay you back in a different way. And that seems transactional and cold.

I feel like, once again, the commitment to partnership is not there.

Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach youh to Be Rich my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.