2. “We’re worth $1 million, but we're so cheap, our friends don't want to see us anymore”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered, how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question? There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast, although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to Find an Extra thousand dollars a Month and how to do a Rich Life annual review. Plus we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching foreign.

How much money do you make an hour and how much time are you spending? Trying to save $2 doesn't make sense and it's annoying. When we go up for dinner, you're like, I want this thing, but I'm gonna get this thing. Because $5 different and $150bill. Who cares? He's cheap.

My guests today are Ashley and Greg. They have a household income of over $250,000 and a substantial net worth. But what happens when only one person in a relationship wants to spend money and the other is an aggressive or even obsessive saver?

Would your family say that you are cheap?

Yes.

Yeah, what about friends?

Yes.

Some. I don't think all of them.

You want to know something? You're cheap. If your friends and family would say it, you are cheap.

It's one thing to be careful with your money, but being cheap is totally different. It puts a strain on relationships, it shapes and changes your identity, and you end up hoarding money with no purpose whatsoever.

Why do you return all my gifts that I buy you? Because you don't want me to spend money.

I don't like the gifts.

And the real issue that we're going to discuss today is not about money. It's much deeper. We're going to figure out what's going on here.

Do you two want to ask each other anything or share how you're feeling?

No.

Today's couple is Ashley and Greg. Ashley reached out to me because there's a serious problem in their relationship. The way that they view their finances is creating a rift between them, and it's threatening to tear them apart.

There's been times where our friends want to go out for dinner and we don't go, and then we stop getting invited or, like, we're particular about, like, where we want to go. They'll pick expensive places, and we say, can you pick something cheaper? And then I feel like it's just a problem for them.

You think you are cheapskates.

There's some things that I'm willing to.

Spend money on, but not Greg.

He's a cheapskate.

Okay, first of all, when you ask people if they're cheap, they will never, ever admit it. But usually in the next sentence, they'll tell you everything you need to know. Oh, no, no, no. I'm not cheap. I just prefer to find old food outside the back of a dumpster because it's a great value. But no, no, I'm not cheap in this case. Notice the deflection that Ashley employs. She immediately pawns off the cheapness onto Greg. Let's listen to what he says.

Greg, is that true?

I don't put a lot of value on material things.

So neither of you will admit that you're cheapskates, except one of you just threw the other under the bus.

I just want to get their income and savings out of the way because a lot of people believe that, oh, they're cheap because they don't have a lot of money. And it turns out that cheap and net worth are not correlated whatsoever. Listen to their numbers.

Together we make about 240 now, plus bonuses. So let's say 270. We have our house and we have a rental property. And the equity between those two are almost a million dollars. And then with our savings, we have about 500,000.

Great. Any other big financial items that I should know about?

I have a diamond ring. I don't know how much is worth, but still.

Carrots.

Whoa. Oh, that sounds cool. Congratulations.

Married five and a half years.

How much is your total housing expense per month?

We're paying it off quicker than we need to. So I think, like, all of our expenses for the whole year. It's about 46,000.

46K for the entire year of all expenses.

Oh, just house. You want to know food too?

Oh, no, that's fine. I'm going to guess that your food expenses are relatively inexpensive. Would that be accurate?

Oh, no. We spent a lot on food, like 25,000 last year.

Okay, tell me about that.

We're very health conscious, so we spend a lot of money on like grass fed, pasture, raised meat, wild fish, organic food like whole foods, high quality coffee and.

Yep.

I don't really know how we spend that much money. We tried to spend less, but it's not really working out for us.

Why do you try to spend less?

Because who wants to spend that much on food?

I'd rather spend that going out with people or maybe like some clothes.

I think you hear people like spending four to six hundred dollars on groceries a month and we're like, we're at 2,000. And we question how we're at 2,000 when families of four spend like a thousand and the two of us alone spend grand. So that's why we try to rein it in. And it's pretty ridiculous that we are as high as we are even though we're being conscious of it.

If you wanted to reign it in, do you think that you could.

No.

We literally cut out like, fresh berries because berries, like, you either don't eat them or they go bad or they're expensive to start again. We're going to buy organic berries, so you're already paying a premium for it.

Okay, there's something going on here. They have a high income, about $270,000 a year and a net worth of over a million bucks. Their friends think they're cheap, but they feel guilty about spending on organic berries. And what's even odder is they don't seem to think they have any control in this situation. Their $25,000 food bill is a total mystery to them. I'm going to dig deeper on this.

We started ordering meat directly from the farmer instead of a middleman. I think that's helped a little bit, but not really. And then we buy what we can at Costco because that's substantially cheaper. But otherwise, like, I would like to shop more at the farmer's market, but Greg's too cheap and won't let me.

Did you hear that? Greg won't let me. Ashley feels restricted, and that's a recipe for resentment, but I'm not sure I buy it. Sometimes feelings do not accurately reflect reality. What confuses me is why they both want to cut back on their spending.

You've heard of the phrase comparing yourself to the Joneses. You are comparing yourself to the Joneses, only to spend less. Neither of you actually seem to believe that you can cut that down.

We're not gonna start eating sick meat. Like, we're not gonna sacrifice quality.

That's what gets you cheaper food.

Yeah, that's what. So that's not what we're willing to do. That's important to us.

So I'm just a little confused here, because if you want to cut back on this cost, you can. But you, too, are clearly unwilling to shop at cheaper places. You're shopping at literally the most expensive places. Farmers markets. Direct from farmers. You're buying fruit and meat, and these are expensive foods. And then you're buying the best of the best. Let's get real. If you want to cut your spending down by half on food, it's very easy. You're just going to go shop at Safeway. Really simple. Do you guys think you could do that if you had to?

If we lost our jobs or something, we would. We wouldn't really have a choice, but with our incomes, I'm not willing to sacrifice the quality.

Okay.

I love hearing you say that, Greg.

Do you agree with that?

Yep.

Then why do you both torture yourselves.

At how much it costs?

Because I feel bad spending so much money on food. I come from, like, a scarcity mindset because growing up, my mom didn't have a lot of money, and she was always shopping, like, canned foods and shake and bake and stuff.

So that's.

I feel like if she could spend.

So little, I should, too.

Ding, ding, ding.

We're on to something here. Anytime someone is able to connect their childhood messages that they received with today's spending behavior, well, you know, you're onto something. These are what I call invisible scripts. They are beliefs we have that are held so deeply that we don't even realize they're there. They are effectively invisible beliefs to us, and these invisible scripts guide our lives. Let's keep listening and see what else we can find out here.

How much did your mom make growing up?

Oh, like, nothing. I don't even know.

How much do you make per year?

Like 90,000.

So let me ask the question that we're all wondering. Do you think you should live differently than your mom if you make $90,000 a year?

I don't know.

I think I should save more money.

Let me try to ask that question again. Do you think you should live Differently than your mom? If you make $90,000 a year, yes.

How?

Because I have more money to spend.

So how would you live differently than your mom if you had a blank slate?

What do you really want to do in life? So prioritize where you want to spend your money.

It sounds so logical coming from you.

Why is that?

I don't. I guess that's what we do now. We just feel like we should save so much.

Why do you say we really should cut down? And we've tried to cut it down. What's the truth?

I guess we can we just choose not to?

Yeah.

Have you both ever looked each other in the eye and said, we shouldn't try to spend less on this? It's important to both of us?

No.

A lot of times when people hear the phrase I will teach you to be rich, they think it's simply about how to make more money. Now. Yes, of course I can show you how to make a lot more money. We do that on our website and in our programs. But there's a reason it's called I will teach you to be rich. A rich life is about more than accumulating money. So many people build the skills of getting wealthy, but they never build the skills of knowing how to actually spend that money. In other words, everyone talks about how to save, but very, very few teach how to spend it. I don't think there's any glory in continuing to use the same strategies that worked for you at 21 when you didn't have any money and you needed to save. As to when you've been very fortunate, very lucky, very successful. In fact, I consider it a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to. So I want to turn this around for Greg and Ashley, and I think I'm gonna have to do a little bit of work on on altering their perspective of money and spending.

Real question for you. Do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important, and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and book this year's appointments today with zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours instantly. Click through your options, book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z O C doc.com ramit zocdoc.com.

Ramit.

What comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport Scheduling a dentist appointment Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed, we gotta pull all this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend Gilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gilt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With Gelt you get a proactive yield year round strategy, not just a one time filing credits, deductions. Business structure is handled and their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to G's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation and as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist. Again, that's joingelt.com ramit join G E L T.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task with Gilt. They can be a tool to build wealth.

I think we just have to accept that that's what it costs to live with our food diet restricted requirements the way it is today.

Yes, that's good. I agree with that.

But the way you talk about it.

Is really puzzling to me.

Oh, we have to accept that we only get to eat grass fed meat and farmers Market fresh produce. Oh my life.

It's a restriction, guys. Let's try it another way.

Greg.

Yeah. Rephrase it for us. In fact, say it to your wife.

We have set a priority on the quality of food, the importance of health in our diets and our day to day. And given how important it is, we are committing to invest in ourselves and spend what we spend on our monthly food budget.

Part of a rich life is getting crystal clear on where you want to spend your money. Ashley and Greg know what they value, but you can hear it in the language that they use. They feel guilty about it. So what I just did there was to get them to totally reframe how they think about spending money. I want to take them from playing defense to playing offense. Try it for yourself. If you want to buy a thousand dollar coat and you can afford it, great. If you want front row tickets to.

A Cher concert or you want to.

Go to a Star wars land at Disneyland, great. My dream for every one of you is to design your rich life and then live it. No apologies, no guilt.

So let's talk a little bit about where these money beliefs come from. I have to tell you that I can't fix cheap. I can fix a lot of money problems, I can help people with a lot of money opportunities, but I cannot fix cheap. Cheap is deep rooted. It's really psychological and most of all cheap. People don't really believe they have a problem so they will not do anything to change. Do you think you're cheap?

To an extent, I don't think I'm as bad as Greg.

That's the second time they noticed you deflected to Greg. Let's stay on you.

I don't think I'm that cheap. Like to an extent, it depends. If I place value on something, then I'll spend money on it. Like I'm happy to spend $600 on a hotel, but if I'm not gonna spend $20 on a cheap T shirt.

Greg, are you cheap?

I just don't put a lot of value on material things.

But he doesn't want to even buy a winter coat and we live in Canada.

No, no. I don't want to buy a thousand dollar winter coat, which is stupid when there is much more affordable options. I don't need to be the out in with the crowd with a thousand or $1,200 jacket.

Did you catch what Greg just did? This is a really common technique that people use to justify not spending money on anything. Especially people who are cheap. What they'll do is they'll instantly jump to an example that seems highly expensive or frivolous. To escape the real question, listen to how Greg does it. I don't need to buy a thousand dollar jacket. Now, I know in polite conversation most people would drop it right there, but they came on my show.

I hear you, Greg.

Not everybody wants a jacket of a certain brand or style or cost. I hear you on that. But there are lots of other things to spend money on besides material goods. Do you ever think about those?

Yeah, like we spend money on experiences. We budget all of our expenses for the year in advance, meaning we have a restaurant budget for the year. Problem begins, I think, is that we say at the beginning of the year, hey, we, last year we spent $3,000 on going out to dinner. This year we're going to budget $3,000. And so like we're in these boxes out of the gate that we feel like we need to stay within that box and stick to that spending that we set out for ourselves.

Otherwise we overspend by the end of the year.

So let's talk a little bit about what are some of the ramifications. Would your family say that you are cheap?

Yes.

Yeah.

What about friends?

Yes.

Some. I don't think all of them.

You want to know something? You're cheap. If your friends and family would say it, you are cheap.

But like, they say it and then they're like, oh, we wish we were had as much money saved and had such a, a good financial position as you. So I have friends who like to buy Louis Vuitton purses every three months and I would never do that. I just go to the store with them.

Ashley has her own defensive strategy against being called cheap. In this case, she's pulled out the old technique of picking something really expensive, like say a $1200 jacket or a Louis Vuitton purse. And then she's thrown in some moral superiority. Yeah, they say it, but then they wish they had as much money saved as we do. The fascinating thing about these techniques is they're not even aware that they're using them. Listen.

I'm different from them.

And that makes you feel what?

Smarter with my money?

Notice that you conflated being cheap with being good with your money. Do you think that there's a way to be good with money without being cheap?

I don't know. Because then we, if we weren't this cheap, we would have never saved this much or had this much money to invest and we wouldn't be in the, in our financial situation. Where we can retire at 50. You only have so much money. Either you save it or you spend it.

What are some of the things that have caused your friends to joke about you being cheap or even call you cheap?

We don't really have furniture, we don't.

Have thousand dollar recliner chairs and loads of knicksnacks in our house to decorate the house so friends might come over after us having lived here for five years and house looks the same as it did five years ago. Because we don't just go spend $1800 in their rug and $1200 on the coffee table.

Again, they use expensive items like an eighteen hundred dollar rug to justify being called cheap. What if it was just a hundred dollar rug? They're setting the bar super high and then using that bar to justify being cheap. And they do it all the time.

Brother wanted to buy a 12 or 15 $1,500 snowblower from my parents. Like we don't budget $750 for us to split a 1500 dollar snowblower. That's an unexpected cost that we haven't budgeted for. We don't have that much just sitting around. So the perception is that you're cheap because you can't afford to contribute to this gift.

And people like make comments like oh, you guys can go out and spend $20,000 a year on vacations but you don't want to go out for dinner and stuff. But it's like that's what we choose to do.

There's been people like who have planned like a bachelorette party and expected everyone to contribute $600 without even having a discussion with anyone. Once again, we didn't have $600 budgeted for a two night stay. Somewhere that was fancy. That someone else had full control and spoken for everyone's financial position without reaching out first to say hey, is everyone okay with spending this much?

There's one couple that she always picked very expensive restaurants and I've always had to ask her not to. So now she just doesn't make plans with us anymore.

And does it concern you or no.

I'm not like I don't know if I really care to hang out with them. But it's, you really need to go and spend 400 hours on dinner. You can't spend like 150 and still have a good time.

There's that defense game again. But that's all this is, a defense mechanism. These aren't really genuine answers that solve the problem we're talking about.

You two are the ones who called me? Not your friends.

My friends call me cheap. But I'm not upset about that because I think my friends are reckless with their money.

You guys have very good answers for everything. There's only one problem.

You are still cheap.

Have you noticed it? You have answers for everything.

Are you cheap?

No, I actually prefer spending on this and that. And I pay for value. Do your friends and family call you cheap? Yes, they do.

Why?

Because they want me to buy new $10,000 furniture all the time. And they expect me to fly to Vegas and do all this. You have great reasons. All those things are totally true. Could you cut back on your spending on food if you really needed? No. We prioritize health. And then finally, we've built their entire lives around this one moment at 52. But actually, we don't want to retire. And Greg. I know Greg's not going to want to retire because there's no way he'll give up the income. And he has. The only goal in life right now is prioritizing towards a goal.

Like, you can't say I'm cheap when I spend $20,000 on vacations a year or that I spend $24,000 on groceries.

That's fair. That's a really fair comment. What I don't love is the hyper focus on cost for everything else.

Greg, you make $270,000 a year and.

You drive to different stores to find cheaper blueberries.

I'm not. Listen, I'm not going out of my. I didn't say those things.

My wife said that.

Am I jumping in a car and going out of my way? No. If am I. I don't know why you're shaking your head. No, it's not true.

So does it bug you, Ashley, or is it funny?

What is it? No, it bothers me. Like, it's annoying. How much money do you make an hour? And how much time are you spending trying to save $2? Does it make sense? And it's annoying. When we go out for dinner, you're like, I want this thing, but I'm gonna get this thing. Cause $5 different and $150bill. Who cares? He's cheap. Like, his comments are annoying, too.

When you're at a restaurant, you'll make these comments that annoys Ashley. And so that does generate an argument. So what do you get out of that?

Out of the comments I make at the restaurant.

Yes. Where you say, I want this, but I'm gonna get this because it's cheaper. What does it get you?

Saves me a few Bucks.

What I'm doing here is I'm really looking for Greg to go beyond the obvious answer. See, most of us get something out out of our behavior, even if it's not obvious. For example, if we complain about how tired we are, we get attention and sympathy from the people around us, so we keep doing it. Now, when you point this out to people, it's a really hard concept to acknowledge because deep down, most of us believe we are logical and rational. And so it can seem dumb or even scary that we might not be consciously aware of our behavior. Listen to Greg trying to grapple with this.

When you say that out loud, what does it do for you?

It doesn't do anything.

It does something. Otherwise you wouldn't do it. We do things because it rewards us. Ashley eats tahini because it tastes good and it makes her happy. You drive around town because you get something out of saving money. As you've just told us, it allows you to avoid the next argument about being overspent on. On groceries. Fine, I accept that. But I don't understand. When you're at a restaurant and it's one thing if you want the steak, but you say, I'm going to get the chicken because it's cheaper to yourself, but you say it out loud, what does it get for you?

I don't think I say it out loud. I might mention it after, like, the restaurant. Like, I also know what it costs. Like a meal costs. Am I going to go to a gro. To a restaurant and spend $24 on a salad? Like, it is beyond ridiculous what the markup on a sal solid is.

I don't need to lecture on food costs. Just tell me what it gets you.

I wouldn't sit at a dinner and say, oh, I'm not going to get this openly in front of her. I might just get the other option. As exactly as you said in my head, I'll say this is a better choice for me for a variety of reasons. I'm not, I can assure you, I'm not sitting at a dinner dining room table saying, let me see how I can save $3 today just to get a reaction out of her like that. I'm absolutely certain it doesn't happen.

Interesting. So why do you think Ashley disagrees?

Here's where maybe it's there's a difference. If we're gonna go out and get an afternoon meal, like a quick lunch, and she's gonna go and get a, whatever, $20 meal. Cause that's what it costs to sit down for lunch. I might sit there and say, do I really want to spend $18 on a burger with cheese and mushrooms? Or I'm gonna be happy with a burger at $14 that doesn't have the fixings. So that's a more realistic example of it. I've never been in a situation where we go out to dinner and I say, I can't believe that was $120 for two and a half hours of entertainment.

Yeah, there's been situations where I like to go out for brunch. And he's like, why are we gonna spend $50 on brunch and we can go out for dinner instead? I don't understand what the point of spending money on this is. Even though I like the act of going out for brunch, I don't even want to ask him because he's gonna make comments, so I'd just rather not.

I believe him. Sounds like Greg is telling the truth. He never made those comments out loud because he never had to. Ashley predicted them and responded before they actually ever happened.

What do you think the cost of all of this is? I'm not talking about the financial cost, but the fact that Ashley does not want to bring certain things up with you because of how she believes you will react. What do you think the cost of that is?

Yeah, it's discontent. And there's. I feel like we probably are against each other, if that's the feeling.

And what happens after 20 years of that?

We don't get to retire together.

Yeah, exactly. That's really savvy of you to say. I think I speak to a lot of couples, and many of them call me, and they have problems, and when I ask them about it, they minimize it. They actually come on here and I say, tell me about it. And they go, it's actually not that big of a deal. And then they proceed to tell me some minor little thing, and I say, what do you think happens after 20 years of that? And it strikes them, oh, my God. This is exactly what people mean when they say, we got divorced because of money. It's not some big financial infidelity thing. In most cases, it's something that started in their 30s. Just a little habit, a little phrase that one or two of them used. A different way of looking at the world with money, a different way of ordering your meal. And it compounds. And suddenly, Greg, you're doing your thing. You have your values, the way you look at the world, your worldview. Ashley has hers. And they diverge one degree by one degree. And as Your income goes up, they diverge more and more, and the only clue you have about it is the small little fights. What do you think Ashley is responding to when you don't order the wine or you don't order a certain xyz?

Her preconceived notion that I'm not doing it to save money. Yeah.

And I would say there's probably some cause for her to believe that because you have brought money up many times, you drive around town, it's like a thing. But what do you think she is feeling uncomfortable about?

She's feeling uncomfortable that if she spends it, I'll be judging.

I think that's probably true. Why don't you ask her?

Why are you uncomfortable about me not wanting to participate in all the.

Because, like, I feel like you don't.

Even want to be there because it's costing you money and you'd rather just be at home. But, like, the whole point is to spend time together. That's what I told you before. It's not about the truth.

Okay.

How are you feeling right now, Greg?

Disappointed that this was that important to her and we didn't go.

Nice.

All right.

This is a really important moment. We hear Greg acknowledging that he's disappointed because he cares about Ashley and he understands how his behavior has unintentionally upset her. You know, this is a huge clue to the success of their relationship. Oftentimes in these conversations, I'm looking for clues as to what's going on with the financial question. But you can just as well hear the clues about the strength of their relationship. And this is a really positive one.

There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent. And I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where BILT comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month. And you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible. So you can start earning Right now I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, Bilt recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026. So stay tuned. Join the loyalty program for renters at joinbuilt.com ramit that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you. When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly, and it's incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt Once more gusto.com ramit okay, let me.

Give you a suggestion on what to ask. Would that be okay?

Sure.

Ask her, if we went to brunch together, what would it mean to you? And really dig into there. Whatever she tells you, double down. Ask her for more. Really get into her vision. All right, go ahead.

If we went for brunch, what would that experience mean to you?

We get to connect on a deeper level. And day to day, just coffee in the kitchen or make me feel closer to you.

What can I do to replicate that experience for you? Whether it's on brunch or elsewhere, When.

I ask you to go out and do things, don't be like, no, because it's this much money and I'd rather do this with this money. If I'm asking you to do something, it's because I want to do it. It's not just something to do. To spend time together.

Ask her again. Greg, you asked a great question. She was a little irritated in her answer, but you really want to know the answer to your question, so say, I totally understand that. I hope you don't mind if I ask you again because I really want to know what's on your mind. And then ask her again part.

You said, if you don't mind.

I'm irritated.

What can I do to make sure that you get that brunch experience? Or what can I do for you to replicate those feelings that you get.

During, like go out more or like when I asked you to plan dates? It's so we can spend time together. So when I ask you to go out, I don't want you to say no, I don't want to because of money or whatever.

Ashley, tell him what you do want. Avoid telling him what you don't want.

He.

He's looking for guidance, so help him.

I want you to say yes when I ask you to go out. And I want you to ask me to go out sometimes. And I want to spend time together outside of the house. And I want you to be okay with spending more money and doing things together.

Greg, don't feel pressured into it just because she's saying that's what she wants. Now, if you agree or disagree, talk about it. This is your opportunity both to negotiate these things. Go ahead.

Money is not an issue when we go out for restaurants because it's part of the same going out restaurant budget.

But how come sometimes for your birthday, I plan to do stuff for you and then you tell me to cancel it all because you don't want to spend money? And why do you return all my gifts that I buy you? Because you don't want me to spend money.

I don't like the gifts.

Wait, wait, hold on a second. Ashley just dropped a major bombshell and Greg just swatted it away.

Did he not catch what just happened?

Greg, how do you think she just took what you said to her?

I'm difficult to buy for because I don't have a lot of needs.

Not interested in that. How do you think she.

She feels hurt that I don't accept her gifts?

When somebody gives you a gift, especially your wife, what is another approach you might be able to take?

Quite honestly, it's probably just explaining that there's something else that I had my heart set on or something else I had my eye on. And if we don't mind switching it.

For that instead, that's definitely one option.

That is code for that's one of the worst possible Answers on earth.

Give me another option.

Tell her I love it.

I don't even bother putting effort into getting you gifts anymore because you're gonna return anyway.

Greg, do you see what's going on here? This is the beginning of checking out. It's not just brunch. It's not just travel. It's not just gifts. Did you hear what she just said? Say it back to us.

I don't put effort into buying you gifts anymore because I know you're just gonna return it.

Greg, you both have some real serious things here. They're really underneath the surface. And every individual item to you, whether it's the drinks or the grass fed beef or the blueberries or any of the examples we've talked about you all, you have an individual reason for everything. But, Ashley, when you said you've created an environment, to me that is as level 10 red alert as it gets, that is really dangerous. A negative environment is toxic. It causes people to check out. It causes people to just stop caring. And once that happens, you cannot get them back. Do you two want to ask each other anything or share how you're feeling?

No.

Okay, that's fair enough.

Okay.

They have some work to do on their communication, but I want to shift gears here for a second because I don't want to lose sight of the bigger picture. What are they actually going to do with all this money they're saving? Keep in mind that between them, they have an annual income of $270,000 and a net worth of over a million bucks.

Greg, what do you think you're going to spend on when you retire?

Golf club membership.

Okay, $25,000 a year. What else?

Oh, no. I found a much cheaper option.

Bro, I can't believe it. After everything we've been talking about today. The first example was a cheaper option.

Why I want to go to luxury resorts and fly first class.

It just. The biggest question mark is what? How are we going to travel and how do we spend money on travel? So even if we say six months somewhere, that can very well mean a apartment in a city somewhere across the world at 2,500amonth. Like, we don't need to have a luxury apartment to enjoy what the culture is like.

Wait a second.

I thought the whole point of this was to save now so that Greg and Ashley can spend extravagantly in retirement, but now he's telling us, oh, he's not going to spend extravagantly in retirement. He's still going to be looking for deals then when he has millions and millions of Dollars? When exactly is he actually planning to spend all this money?

Greg, when was the last time that you went to a luxury hotel?

We actually traveled to Europe for a month.

And how much did that cost you when you were there?

12,000.

And how did you feel about that, Greg?

It was budgeted for, so it was fine.

Ah, very interesting.

We knew that we wanted to get away from work. It was our first trip in a year. You don't want to go to Italy and cook in your own house. You want to go eat gnocchi in the restaurant. So when you make the decision to eat out every single meal and get comfortable accommodations, you just are. You're okay with the bill being what it is?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Well, as long as.

Ashley, was that your experience, too?

No, I was going to say that. Greg tells me that's ridiculous that I want to spend that much on vacations every year. To me, I feel like it's justified because I sacrifice other things in my life to have those. I don't get my hair done or my nails done. I don't buy a lot of clothes. I don't go out ever because I want to save to go on trips.

So the trips after food is our biggest expense. And the trips becomes a contentious topic sometimes because I don't need the highest end butler service accommodations when I go on vacation.

But we don't spend that.

We spent $20,000 before.

I know, but that like, for to go to for a honeymoon. And we stayed in luxury places. That's it.

First of all, I'm a hotel guy, so I need to know which hotel are we talking about here? Where did you go on your honeymoon?

We went to Bali and we stayed at the Cheddi.

Beautiful.

All right, I gotta tell you guys, I don't care. We could be talking about you becoming an orphan, but if you mentioned that you stayed at a certain luxury hotel, I'm gonna stop that conversation. Hold on a second. Which suite did you stay in? How'd you like it? What type of food did you order off menu? Did you talk to the chef? Did you take a tour with the general manager?

What can I say? I love these hotels. I gotta know the details. I'm sorry, guys.

When we are in Poland, so it's much cheaper. So we went to this, like, spa hotel. And like the. So it was only $600 a night, but it was like a lot of bank for a buck because of their currency.

I wanted to see what Greg and Ashley actually need to save in order to hit Their financial goals and how it compares to their lifestyle. Their plan is to retire at 52. So I crunched the numbers for them.

So you're on track to do about that. Looks like you are gonna end up with around 4 million bucks when you think about those numbers.

How do you feel?

Great.

If I'm making a quarter million dollars at 51 or 52, am I walking away from another year of quarter million dollars? The question mark will be am I going to be prepared to walk away from whatever level, whatever job I have at that age and just forego that income? I think that's going to be the tougher part that we're going to have to navigate. Which could also resulted some issues.

I already know the answer to that. So do you?

Exactly, yeah.

What is it?

All he talks about is retiring, but then I'm like, you're not going to walk away from that income once you get there.

So why do you guys put 52 retirement. You don't want to retire at 52.

But we have. So we call it financial freedom. Like we have the option if we don't want to. If I. Neither of us wants to go to work anymore and we've had enough.

Financially speaking. Ashley and Greg are both well ahead of most people I speak to. They're aligned on their financial goals, they're high earners, they've got a great amount saved up. What's interesting is that this conflict stems from their self imposed annual budget which is restricting their spending. In other words, they're prisoners of their own creation. Now the solution seems obvious to you and me. We both know that they don't need to be saving so much money. But it's one thing to quote, know what needs to be done. It's a whole nother thing to make those changes in your own life. Let's see if I can convince them to cut themselves a little bit of slack here.

I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out. But for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think.

Of think out loud.

If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean final draft writing inside whatever app you're already using, email, Slack docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast. It's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it. Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple Voice to Text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flow. Try it for free at whisperflow AI/ramit that's whisperflow AI/ramit w I s p r flow AI/ramit or click the link.

In the description below.

My amazing wife has taught me a lot of things. She certainly leveled up my style. She certainly taught me to stop and stop celebrate more, something I did not used to do. But she also taught me about the fashion industry, specifically its sales tactics around Black Friday and Cyber Monday. She basically has a rule of not falling for sales gimmicks for things you don't actually care about, but you are tempted to buy them just because they're on discount. Instead, use a tool like Rocket Money to stay on target with your conscious spending plan. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Just link your accounts to start and it lays everything out. Your subscriptions, your bills, your due dates. You can customize it with your conscious spending plan like a lot of our readers do. Rocket Money has saved users over $2.5 billion, including over $880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Ramit today. That's RocketMoney.com Ramit RocketMoney.com Ramit.

You know.

You guys are already going to have $4 million in a few years. After that, you'll have $10 million. So these arguments that you're having, first of all, they're really over small amounts of money. We are not talking about 80 grand. We're talking about $5. $50. But the second part of that is that they're actually not about money at all. It's not a math problem. This is a deep psychology problem. You don't have the skills of spending money. You've never developed them. Ashley, we talked about your mom. Greg. We didn't get a chance to get into your family. But would you agree that there's probably. Is there something in your past where similar to Ashley, there were maybe financial irregularities or people who didn't spend a lot of money? Yeah, yeah.

He grew up pretty poor.

Earlier I mentioned that we start forming our money habits in childhood. You know, I think it's time to hear Greg's story.

I'm Eastern European. My going out would be on the drive, camping. We stop at KFC once a year. Whereas now that the needs of my partner are to go out multiple times a month, which is very different than my whole upbringing like that one, KFC brought me joy, but I don't think I can replicate that joy by going out on a regular basis. So, like, the fact that we go when we go and we make it feel special to us brings me back to that time when we popped into kfc. But I don't know if I'm going to have that same satisfaction and joy and love if I go out four or five times a month.

Everybody talks about the hedonic treadmill. And the advice that everybody in the financial world gives you is the hedonic treadmill will force you to have diminishing returns on your enjoyment, which is true. But then they go one step further. They go, therefore, don't do anything a lot because you're never going to enjoy it. And I think, Greg, your mind is telling you, hey, I got a lot of joy out of going out once a year. So therefore, because I'm a human and humans love to be consistent, I should get the same amount of joy doing it now. And if I need to go out more, then there's something wrong with me. I've actually become one of those frivolous spenders. But I'll give you a different perspective. I want to acknowledge that you're not going to get the same joy today, even going to a $200 restaurant that you got from that $5 KFC meal, it's not going to happen. Things are different. You were also getting a lot of joy. Not because of the chicken, although KFC is pretty good. Who were you with?

My family.

Yeah.

So whether it's $5 or $500, you are with people you love. And what you've done is you've let the dollar amount become the most important part of that story. The real answer is the people you were with. So you have the chance to do that now. Yeah, it's going to be a little bit more expensive. In fact, it's going to Be a lot more expensive. But do you think 15 year old you would ever imagine that you'd be making this kind of money? No. Exactly. Without any specific goals for the next 15 to 20 years, I predict you'll accumulate a tremendous amount of money. I don't think you truly understand the costs. If you add up all the collective decisions you've made on your income, you've saved how much per year? With everything you do to save on wine and blueberries and this particular brunch, whatever. How much does it save you per year?

Not much.

How much? Give me a number.

$5,000.

It's more than 5,000, I can tell you that right now.

10.

Good. Maybe you're saving five to $10,000 per year. How do you feel about that?

Now that I'm older, I feel like it's not worth it. When I was 20, that was more like a significant number.

Let's first start out with what your worldview on the world has cost you. How could you figure that out? I don't just mean financially.

How many fewer people are calling you to go out?

Yeah, what else?

How many times we fought over money?

There you go.

How many memories we've lost with our families?

Keep going. What else?

How many times we haven't connected because we don't go out? We just watch, sit in front of. There's a lot more important things than money, Greg.

What about for you?

It becomes eye opening and very evident that we've missed out on these memories and experiences where what can be five to $10,000 a year in expenses.

If it were someone making $25,000 a year, I'd be having a very different discussion with them. You two are professionally very successful. I won't go so far as to say you're financially successful. You saved a lot of money. But being successful with money is about more than math. What I would argue you failed at is to prioritize. Everything else became tunnel vision, focused on numbers. And that's not a rich life. That's just a lot of money.

I agree.

What do you want to do about it?

I don't want to save as much. I want to start living for today and not for tomorrow. What about you, Greg?

Like you said, I think we just have to look at the things that we feel that we're missing out on. These sandboxes we've created for ourselves, being able to expand those so that we can feel, at least in this interim, until we learn how to spend, how we can feel better about having a budget for these experiences. Having the allocated funds you won, you're done.

Already invested a tremendous amount and you're investing $70,000 plus per year. So it's not that you are choosing today over tomorrow. Tomorrow's done. You got it. Locked it in. Well done. All right, so. So things are going to come up that you did not budget for. And both of you have one reaction.

Panic.

I feel like we have a slush account.

We do not.

I like where you're going, Greg. How much should that slush account have in it?

$1200.

Greg. No, I thought we had this.

1200.

If you cover the other buckets, why would you have another large slush bucket?

Greg, stop thinking like you're still poor. You make $270,000 a year. The unexpected things that come up for you are more expensive than for somebody who has low income. There's no nobility in continuing to act like you're poor. It's actually offensive. So, Greg, how much should be in that slush fund? $5,000. Good. 5,000 now and three years from now. How much do you think it should be in there?

$7,000.

Okay, that's good. At least directionally. Ashley, what about you? Okay, fine.

That's great.

That's perfectly fine. If it were me, I would have said 15,000, because I want you to start thinking bigger.

I think they both get it. Let's hear how they're feeling.

I'm excited like that. We're gonna get some freedom with this because this is what I wanted for.

A long time and I'm glad that.

We'Re on the same page and just it's gonna be hard.

I think I'm very optimistic because we've been bound by these very strict rules and I think where we've both opened up to the understanding that we can afford more now, we can allocate more to ourselves, to our well being, for our mental health and to our marriage. And it's just a matter of being able to start putting that into action.

That's awesome. I really love that. I love hearing you acknowledge each other. You feel confident, Ashley?

Yeah, I'm excited.

I am too. My greatest joy will be to hear from you both in six to 12 months. What are you going to tell me?

We're going to tell you about the hotel we went to, how much we enjoyed it.

There you go.

What are you going to enjoy at that hotel?

We're going to go treat ourselves.

It is the new version, Greg, of your KFC is seeing your wife smiling because you've created abundance. This relationship. And Ashley, for you, it's the joy of watching Greg opening up financially. And so when you're both at this beautiful resort and you're eating this great food and you look at him, you see him smiling, and you're smiling. That's a great moment for both of you to appreciate each other.

If you've been if you enjoyed this.

Episode, please follow or subscribe to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich on any podcast platform, and you'll get notified each time we drop a new episode. And if you've really enjoyed what you've heard so far, rate and review us too. I would love to have your rating. And we're just starting out, so those reviews and ratings really help.

Thank you.

Here's what you'll find next week on the I Will Teach youh to Be Rich podcast.

Even though you're living month to month.

You'Ve managed to accumulate six figures in savings.

That's no joke.

And yet you are words that I heard today. Obsessing. You're talking about like $10 expenses. But you have over $200,000 in savings, both independently and jointly. Do you know how much your money right now turns into by the time you're 65? If you just keep contributing the same amount? Any idea how much it turns into?

No.

Take a guess.

5 million.

That's a good guess. 3.6 million.