201. “I make $40k… but I own 100+ suits”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered, how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question, There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast, although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event, Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to find an extra thousand dollars a month and how to do a Rich Life annual review. Plus, we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching what's up new York?

Whoa.

As a student you make 40k a year. What the hell?

So it's kind of hard. We moved from the apartment to a house. All these bills just keep coming in.

Hold on, hold on. I got to do it. Are you telling me that when you buy a house there are certain costs you did not account for? How many suits do you have?

Probably about 100.

What?

I'm like tagging along in this relationship. I'm like, well, that's really nice. We get to do cool things because Pam said we could.

You want me to just tell you the answer?

Yeah.

No, that's not how it works. We are living in La La Land right now.

On today's episode, you'll get to join me on the third stop of my live book tour in a city that is very special to me, New York City. I loved being on the road for this tour and experiencing Boston and Chicago was unbelievable. But there is something special about coming home and having the opportunity to get on stage in my own backyard. Today I will speak with two couples at completely different ends of the socioeconomic spectrum. And that is One of my favorite things about New York, we have a huge melting pot of all different backgrounds, culturally, financially, and we get to explore it today. Now let's get to the show.

Yes.

Whoa.

What's up, New York? Whoa. Love to see it. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Oh, my God. All right, welcome, everybody. It feels great to be back in New York. I lived here a long time. I met my wife here. And living here, you realize money here is different than money in other cities, right? How many of us have been scrolling on social media? We're just scrolling, having a nice time. And then you see some. Who posts, hey, who wants to live in New York in a one bedroom apartment? If you lived in my city, you could buy a house like this. And then they show you the ugliest house you've ever seen in your life. I go, who wants to live in a field surrounded by wheat and a Wells Fargo? I hate Wells Fargo. See, what people don't understand is that New York is like a cosmic vortex of finance, right? You wake up, you go outside, you go to work, you come home, you kick off your shoes, and then you just realize, I spent $375. I don't know why. It's New York. They will never understand it. But we do. Like in another city, you walk into a breakfast place, you know, you sit down, you have your meal, you go, yummy, I'm so full. And you give them a $10 bill and you get change back. Here, I saw somebody this morning order a bagel at Apollo's Bagels. That bagel was $15. They won't get it, but we do. Don't even bother trying to explain it to them. It's hopeless. What they don't understand is that real wealth in New York is not just about the clothes that you're wearing. It's not about the bag that you're carrying. It's none of that. You all want to hear the real levels of wealth in New York? Let me tell you. Level one, you have an elevator in your building. Let me hear you if this is you. Is this you? Wow, wow, wow, wow. If this is you, you have officially made it. You are not climbing up a fifth floor walk up in August in Flatbush. Well done, well done, well done. Level two, wealth in New York. You have a dishwasher in your apartment. Let me hear it if this is you. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Every night, you finish putting stuff in the dishwasher, you close it, you wipe your hands, and you just stare at that dishwasher and you say a prayer thank you, Lord. I don't have to scrub off my skin for the next 15 minutes and then use 20 paper towels to clean off my counter because I have no space to store these dishes. Thank you. Hallelujah. That's level two. Level three, wealth in New York. Laundry in your unit. Wow. Yes, yes. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have laundry in your unit, you are ballin'.

Okay?

You definitely work at a job where you make so much you can't contribute to your Roth ira.

Okay?

Now level four, wealth in New York, which they will never understand. But we do central air conditioning. Exactly. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about.

Central air.

You just turn on a switch, it cools the whole place down. Not that rattly old box that's three months away from falling out of your window and killing someone. If you have central air in your apartment, you are worth at least $10 million. And now for the ultimate level of wealth in New York. This is level 5 wealth. Can you guess what it is? No. It's not a car. It's not owning a Birkin. It's not even a summer house in the Hamptons. If you live in New York and you have an in sync garbage disposal, you are rich. Like Richie Rich. Yes. Like use my house in Aspen because I'm never there. Rich. That's rich.

Okay.

Now I'm telling you. I'm telling you, they will never understand, but we do. Now, I love New York because I love the levels of wealth. I love talking about money. And I've had some of my best conversations about money. In New York. People open up and they tell you things that you can't believe they're saying. And you never know what to expect. Like tonight, we get to explore one of the most fascinating and under explored relationships in our lives. And that is our relationship with money. So I want your help to welcome our guests who are coming out. Please get on your feet and give a huge welcome to Antonio and Devonte.

Hello.

How you doing? How's it going?

It's good.

Pretty good.

How y' all feeling?

Nervous.

Nervous? All right, is this crowd here for them?

They.

They are here for you. Thank you so much for being here. Now, who applied to come up here?

I did.

You did? Okay. Is that normal in your relationship when it comes to money? Are you the more assertive one with money?

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah.

Okay. All right. Now, I understand that you are both young and you both recently bought a house and you're getting married this year. Is that right?

Yeah.

All right, so you told us that you feel like you're not able to get ahead with your savings goals. Now before we get into all that, I just want to say I talk to a lot of different folks, different incomes, different locations, different situations. One of my favorite things in the world to do is to talk to young people because the fact that you are up here asking the right questions early on is amazing. And you have the time to set your life up the way you want to. So can we give it up for them? Young asking these questions. Oh my God, you're 23 years old.

Yeah.

Amazing how many people here wish they started optimizing their money at 23.

Damn.

Look at that. Look at that. That's got to feel good, seeing that. Yeah, like you're doing it right. Okay, great. So I want to know a little bit about your financial dynamic income wise. You both earn similar or different incomes.

Different, Different.

Okay, break it down for me.

So I'm a registered nurse, so I earn like 65, so.65k a year.

65, okay.

And I'm a full time college student and I work part time and I have a residential cleaning business.

Okay, how much do you make from that?

For my cleaning business this year I made $20,000. And for my part time income I make around $20,000. So for like 40k a year as.

As a student you make 40k a year? What the hell? I feel like this is going to be very easy for me. All right, 23 year old making good money. Great. Now this was, this was a role reversal because y' all switched incomes recently. Explain that a little bit.

So basically last year me and Antonio was in apartment and he was going to school full time in his accelerated program and I was working part time, but I was also doing my cleaning business. So like financially we're in a better position. We didn't have the house, so we didn't have like this much debt. I was basically covering majority of everything because the bills weren't that much. Like our granny was helping us financially with the rent. So we just had to cover like the utilities and then like eating, you know, everyday expenses which wasn't that much. So I was basically like the sole provider while he was going to school and he was in accelerated program working one day a week.

All right.

So I was.

And it flipped now.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, so how do you feel about that, Antonio?

So I'm not used to like per se being like the breadwinner or like provider role. So it's kind of hard because like, we move from the apartment to a house, and then it's like all these bills just keep coming in.

What do you mean? Hold on, hold on. I got to do it. Are you telling me that when you buy. Buy a house, there are certain costs you did not account for?

Well, we did, but I didn't think.

It was going to get like that.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Feels so good right now. All right. There's a lot of phantom costs in owning, that's for sure. Okay. You mentioned something. You said, I'm not used to being the provider. That's interesting. How would you characterize each of your financial roles in the relationship?

So he usually, like, in the past, will handle more of, like, the bills and stuff. Like, I know they're coming, but I wouldn't see them.

True.

And so, like, you knew they were coming, like, spiritually?

Yeah.

Like, you know, I know, like, first of the month, the rent. Okay, I knew how much the rent cost, but I just knew, like, it was handled or, I don't know, like. Or, I don't know, like, the water bill or something like that. What's coming?

What about for you?

For me, I more so handled, like, saving our money or, like, just planning it out and.

Okay, what do you say?

Like, basically what he was saying, like, I would take care of all the bills. I'm kind of like a splurger, so I would kind of like, buy us things, like, take us out to eat and stuff like that.

What do you splurge on?

Suits?

What?

What?

Like, how many suits do you have?

So usually, like, I travel a lot and I do, like, a lot of events because I'm a business major. So usually when it's like an event or anything like that, I will always buy a brand new suit to go to the events.

Notice how he did not answer my question. How many suits?

Probably about 100.

What? Are you serious? You have 100 suits?

Yeah.

Oh, my God. What? I did not know that. What am I supposed to do with this information? Like, how do you have enough closet space for that?

Yeah, there's closet space. So I make closet space, and then I have, like, a wardrobe full of the suits, and then, like, the ones I can't fit anymore, I just give away.

Do you think that it's normal to have 100 suits legit?

No.

What do you think would be like, a average amount of suits for a man?

Probably 20.

Yeah, I think that's a good number.

We are living in La La Land right now. All right. Okay. I was going to Ask if you all were aligned on savings goals, but I feel like the answer is no.

We're aligned with, like, the mission of, like, we both want financial freedom. Okay. And our definition of that, like, for, say, like, we just want to not have to worry about, like, money or. And have, like, the luxury of traveling, because that's our passion. So we are aligned in essence.

Hold on.

So financial freedom for you is not worrying about money and traveling?

Yeah. Okay.

Do you think you'll be able to.

Achieve that down the line?

Yeah, I think definitely we'll be able to achieve it. So, like, buying this house was, like, our first, like, financial investment to financial freedom. Because, like, real estate, I believe real estate is the. The way to get into, like, to start financial freedom. So that was why the decision for buying the house. So we want to retire before 50. So that's our goal.

Okay, got it.

That's helpful.

Yeah, I like that specificity. Okay, great. So, Antonio, you're more frugal with saving.

Yeah.

Like, how many suits do you have?

I have probably, like, five. Five.

All right.

So, like, what do you say when he comes home with another suit?

So, yeah, he likes. Every event or conference, he'll go out like, oh, I gotta get a new suit. I'm like, well, no, you got suits in the closet. And so I. I kind of just tell him, like, to, like, restyle it, but he doesn't want to restyle it. He wants, like, a new one. So I was telling, like, you know, every time it's not needed.

Did you buy a new suit, like, for this trip?

No.

Okay.

All right, that's interesting. So right now, it's like, you know, it's kind of funny what happens if you keep that pattern up for the next 10 years where, you know, you're buying a suit, and then you're like, do you really need a suit? Why are you buying a suit? What happens as the numbers get bigger and the stakes get higher?

I feel like there does be, like, kind of some tension when it comes to, like, his splurging, in a sense, because, like, sometimes I feel like it's unnecessary, and I feel like if it keeps going on, it's like we're going further and further from, like, our goals.

Yeah. We'll get back to Antonio and Davante after a quick break to support our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Lisa, and I use this product myself. Now I'm going to give Americans an unpopular opinion. You know why you have back pain? Well, part of the reason is your soft mattress sinking in the middle legs up. Akimbo. Every other culture knows that you sleep on a very solid mattress. When my wife and I went to Asia, we're in all different Asian countries. We're in India. Look at this coffee mug. You can put this coffee mug on one part of the mattress and go like this. It won't even move. That is a good mattress. Now, why am I so angry as I'm reading this ad? It's because I'm angry at you. You for falling prey to the worst marketing I've ever seen from soft mattresses. If you want great sleep, why don't you just get the mattress that I use? I tried a bunch of them. The mattress I use is from Leesa, and it's the sponsor of this week's episode. The Leesa mattresses have tons of different models to choose from based on your sleep position and your preferences. But if your preference is soft, you're wrong. Do what I say. You're going to have better sleep. There's a mattress for every budget, including the fact that when I talk to people on this podcast who have $5,000 mattresses, I'm always like, why is your mattress more expensive than mine? I don't think you have to pay a tremendous amount of money to have great sleep. Now, with high quality materials, Leesa meticulously designs and assembles their mattresses in America for exceptional comfort and support, plus free delivery. You can return it if you want. And you have a hundred nights to try out your mattress in the comfort of your home. Give it three nights. Your first night, you're going to be like, why am I sleeping on concrete? The second night, you're going to be cursing me in your sleep. The third night, you're going to be like, wait a second. All those Asian people were right. That's how I actually have a better back. Go to Lisa.com for 20% off site wide, plus an extra $50 off with promo code RAMIT. That's exclusive for my listeners. That's L e e s a.com promo code RAMIT for 20% off site wide, plus an extra $50 off Lisa.com promo code RAMIT. Remember, no matter who you are, no matter how many delusional marketing messages you've fallen for over the last 45 years, there's a Lisa just for you. As part of my rich life, I have 10 money rules. And one of those rules is I can spend guilt free on anything relating to my health. That means healthier foods, working with a personal trainer, and buying books or courses on Improving health and wellness. But it also means that I stay on top of regular health checkups. And finding a good doctor in network is incredibly difficult. That's why if I were looking for a new doctor or a specialist, I would use the sponsor of this week's episode, zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. Book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty, including mental health, dental, health, primary care, urgent care, and more. And you can use the app filter for doctors who take your insurance and are located nearby. Appointments made through Zocdoc also happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours of booking. Sometimes they even offer same day appointments. If I needed to find a doctor today, this is what I would use. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments. Go to zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com ramit zocdoc.com ramit now back to the show.

If you had $10,000 extra, what would you do then?

Well, I wouldn't buy no more suits. I think I have enough suits. I would probably say buy another house or invest into another like real estate property or something like that.

Okay, so if that's the case, then if you have like 500 bucks, sounds like you go and buy another suit. So what's the difference?

So the difference is like, I guess because I have way more money. So I feel like if I have that, if I look at it at that number, then I'm like, okay, I have to do something big. I have to invest this money and not, you know, utilize that $500 to buy another suit. So I think because I like, I see like the three, $400, I'm like, okay, I can extra that I have. So I'm like, I can just take this and buy another suit or something like that.

It's like whatever I see, it gets spent.

Yeah.

If there was a big chunk, I might invest it in something.

Definitely.

Okay.

Antonio, when you think about the hundred suits, et cetera, how does it make you feel?

I would get annoyed for that reason. Yeah.

Like for me, like 15 suits is annoyed. Like 40 is a different word and 100 is a different word.

Yeah.

What do you think? That's me? You tell me.

Well, yeah, I feel like it gets kind of like excessive in a sense because it doesn't need to be splurged like that.

That's why I'm trying to understand this idea because you describe yourself sometimes as a splurger Devonte and then you tell me of 100 suits. That's what splurge on. You know, sometimes I ask people what would you spend more money on? And if they like to eat out, they will go, oh, I would eat out four times a week. I think the in your case it's, I like suits. I would buy 100 suits. And sometimes I ask them, what if you ate at a nicer restaurant, what if you got a custom meal, a custom suit made? Have you ever thought about that?

No, I haven't really.

Tell me more.

So no, I haven't really thought about like that. I don't know, like I just, for each event that I like want to attend, I just want to look nice and want to, you know, stand out. So that's why I, you know, buy another suit.

Is the idea that deep down is the belief more is better?

I would say kinda because growing up, like both of my parents were on Social Security, so they. And then they have five kids, so they didn't have like there was no money like for any for us or anything like that. And then I didn't have the money to like go get new clothes like I want to or just dress nice and look nice. So I think as I got older and I got access to this money and I'm going to these different events and I'm seeing these like industry leaders looking nice, I kind of want to resemble that or you know, like embody that. So that's why I go out and make sure I look nice. And like first impressions is key for me.

I get all that. I don't get the hundred. So like, what I'm trying to get at is I don't mind nice things. I like them too. But when I hear that the two of you have a vision of retiring before 50 and I hear 10, 20, 50, 100 suits, I start to go. Right now you're earning what you're earning as a student. Soon you're going to earn a lot more. That's a lot more money. I suspect you'd probably be tempted to get a lot more suits. I would. If I bought 100 suits, I'd want. It's like eating tortilla chips. I eat 10 chips, I want 20 more. Right, right. So what I'm trying to really get at here is what's the vision, individually and together? I hear the together vision, which is retire before 50, financial freedom. I Love it. I don't hear how the individual vision contributes to that.

I believe, like, once I get older, I won't. Or once I make more money, I won't buy any more suits. I think that's kind of just like a now thing. Hold on.

How many people in this room cheer if you believe that? Dude, nobody buys less of things they love. When they make more money, they buy more.

Right.

There's no problem. I'm not.

Trust me.

I'm not the guy who tells you, don't spend money on suits or lattes. I don't. That's not me. What I'm trying to get at is what's the vision?

Do I.

If I want to look great, one way to do it is to have dozens of suits. Another way is to have a certain number of suits and to restyle them. And maybe the suit quality goes up or maybe it's the same, But I have 20 different shirts. And I want you to really think about it, because the decisions you make today carry through for the next 20, 30 years. Okay, how do you all set your accounts up?

So we have a joint checking account where, like, all of our bills come out of, like, the fixed costs. We have a high yield savings account together. And then we have personal high yield savings accounts.

Great. Okay, great.

Amazing. And are you planning a wedding right now?

So I don't want a wedding because of the cost. So we decided to, like, just elope and do something private with both of us.

Cool.

I love that. Yeah, I love that. You know what I love? To me, big wedding, small wedding. It's all good. What I love is that the two of you talked about it.

Yeah.

And you decided this is for us. So that's beautiful. Let's take a quick look at the numbers here. All right, so what we see here is assets of 157k, investments, 5,000, debt is 185, total net worth of about 20k, gross annual income of 100k, approximately fixed cost at 61% and investments at 9. I mean, how do you all feel about these numbers?

I feel okay, a little bit. I mean, I'm proud of, like, where I came from, from, like, where I started. I just more so feel like the debt component, like, it gives me, like, anxiety. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Same. I feel the same way. I feel like our numbers are pretty good, but I feel like they could be better. And I just want us to, like, work on paying down the debt. I don't like to see that. That high of a number for debt.

Okay. I think your CSP is pretty good. Honestly, for 23 years old, I think it's really good. And you got a student, like, you're not even earning your full time income. Correct. So this is solid. And it's really important when we talk about money, it's like a window into our soul. It tells you how people feel. So did you notice how the two of you answered a question? It was very similar. I said, how do you feel about those numbers? What was your answer?

Good. But anxious about the debt.

Yes.

Good. But don't like to see that high of the number with that.

Exactly. So you guys were like, it's good, but anyway, I feel really horrible about it. We gotta fix this and that. Like, you glided over the good so quickly.

Yeah.

And I wonder what would it look and feel like if you actually spent more time on the good? I once had a performance review for one of my teammates coming up, and I have this group of CEOs I'm in a group with, and they were like, are you ready for the performance review? And I always find them challenging. And they said, how good is this employee? I said, oh, he's really good. They said, like, on a percentage 1 to 100, how good is he? I said, he's 90%, like, great. They said, in your performance review, which is going to be an hour, how much time are you planning to be positive versus constructive? And it just immediately hit me because I was going to say a couple of nice things and then spend the rest of the time focusing on all the things that he could do better. And they taught me to flip it if something's good. Spend a lot of time on the good.

Yes.

We can fix the stuff that needs to be fixed, like the debt. But sometimes it really helps to really lean into that feeling of good. You guys think you can do that?

Yeah. Definitely focus more on it.

Yeah.

All right.

Celebrate 23. You got these numbers, quick calculations, very simple calculations. If on one income, if you just continue, you'll have $1.6 million at retirement.

That's great. Okay.

It's good.

Yeah.

If you have two incomes, that's $3.1 million.

Oh, wow.

Okay. And y', all, we didn't add in any increases in incomes. None of it. So you know that if you were like, we want to make. We want to have 4 million or 5 million, you could do that because you're 23 years old. And tiny little changes now echo 25 years down the road, 30 years. So now I'm going to ask you again, how do you Feel about those numbers.

We're in a great position.

Yes. Look at that smile. That's what I'm talking about. Feeling good, really leaning into that. Celebrating with each other. We did it. Look how far we came, look how we grew up, look where we are now and look where we get to go together. That to me is really powerful. How do you think that that will change the dynamic of your money conversations going forward?

I feel like we have money conversations like almost like weekly.

But what are you talking about weekly?

Like we'll just like reflect over like kind of like where we're at, like financial wise, like what we have to pay and things like that. Like we're right now. It was like a lot of worry conversation. Like worried about.

Like that's so surprising.

Yeah, because like I'm a perfectionist. So I kind of like in like a tense about like paying off certain things that we have. So I kind of go overboard.

Oh, wow. So out of a 30 minute conversation, it's not 30, is it? How long is the conversation?

Sometimes they're 30, but if we get like really deep into it, maybe like an hour, maybe.

Okay, out of an hour. How much of it is positive versus negative?

I would like percentage wise, we're probably 75% like negative, then 25% positive.

That's honest. That's actually how most money conversations, like 90 plus percent negative. Because really the only time people talk about money is when they're fighting and then they go, let's go to sleep and pretend this didn't happen and let's wait for another six weeks until it comes up again. So the fact that you're actually proactive about it is amazing. I think a week is kind of aggressive. Like, gosh, that's like, what do we need to talk about every week? If we've set things up to flow smoothly, if each person owns a couple of numbers, probably a week, you may not need to do it. But I'll leave that to you. Typically I say every month. Some people do it every week or bi weekly, that's up to you. But I would really just, you know, some of the stuff in the book is how to have these money conversations. Be positive. We always start with a compliment. We always give each other a hug, a high five at the end, really recharacterize them. One thing that I would really remind myself of if I were in your situation is we're on a single income for right now, but that's a temporary situation. When do you start a full time job?

So potentially the fall of 20, 26.

Okay. Do you know how much you'll make when you start that?

Yeah. So starting salary is about 75 to 85k.

Damn.

All right, so that's a lot. I mean, that's going to be great. So have you all talked about what. Where the money is going to flow when you make that much?

Yeah, I believe we talked about it. Yeah. Did we?

Yeah. Like right now, kind of sticking on the same plan of like, I kind of. We kind of want to switch to like living off of one income and then using the other income to just save or invest like how we want to. So I feel like that's kind of where we want to stick to.

But where's the suit money going to come from? No kidding. Really, where is it?

So it's going to probably come from my portion. So I'm probably going to be paying all the bills and we're going to be living off my income. So I'm make sure I have a little bit for probably my suits.

Like how much?

Probably a year, probably. I want to say like 5,000.

5,000 a year off 100k?

Yep.

Okay. It's not my money. It's not my position to say. I think that if the two of you set your accounts up right, which my suggestion would be shared, joint account, and then you each have, you have some joint guilt free money, things like eating out trips, all that stuff that's important to you and then you each have some individual guilt free money, then that guilt free money that's individual is no questions asked. If you want to buy another suit, it's your money, no questions. But it's got to come from there. Can't come from the joint money because that suit doesn't make sense for the joint. So that's why I really love setting this money up, so that each of us has individual, no questions asked money. And within that, it's yours to play with. Your partner knows about your account. They don't even have access to the account though it's yours and you have your own as well. Each of you do what you want. If you set that up and you two come up with a vision as teammates, this is how much we're going to have. Our incomes are about to go up significantly because we're going to combine them. We're going to have another income and we have this vision of maybe buying another property, retiring at 50, traveling, I think it'd be very, very successful. All right, let's give it up for Antonio and Davante. Thank you very much. Well done. Great to see you guys. Thank you very much.

You know, I have to say it's rare that I get a chance to speak with such a young couple and I have to applaud them for thinking about their finances at 23 years old. And hearing their story is a great reminder that how we talk about money influences the way we feel about money. And in order to feel better about money, we could probably benefit from spending a little bit of time celebrating how far we've come as opposed to just dwelling on what we don't yet have. Wait until you hear their follow ups at the end of this episode. I am blown away by the progress they've made in a really short time. I think you will be too. We'll get back to the show after a quick break to support our sponsors. You know, I've been in business for over 20 years and I work with a lot of business owners and one of the misconceptions when you start out is that you have to do everything yourself. You have to write the emails, design the web pages, add the landing pages, edit the social posts, all the graphics. No, over time you learn you can hire that out. And you can't grow your business if you're tinkering in Canva all day long. So how are you supposed to find somebody who can help you grow your business? Well, there are lots of amazing freelancers out there, and one great place to find them is upwork, one of the sponsors of this week's episode. Here's a list of projects my team and I have hired for on Upwork over just the last few months. Graphic designers for PDFs, TikTok, video editor, content editor for an email campaign, and web design for a new sales page. And we just post the job on upwork. It doesn't cost anything to join. You can register, browse profiles, get help drafting a job post, and you can book a consultation. From there, you connect with freelancers, you can look at their portfolio and you can hire them to get started on projects right away. Upwork makes the entire process easier and more affordable. And with upwork, you can access top talent across tons of different industries, including IT, web dev, AI, design, admin support, and marketing. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upwork.com upwork.com it's funny that when people finally decide to take control of their finances, one of the first Things they try to do is nitpick on tiny little expenses. But please remember this. There is a limit on how much you can cut, but no limit on what you can earn. Yeah, you probably shouldn't be spending $650 on a Fritos subscription, but there are tons of ways to increase your income. You can negotiate a raise, change careers, or start a business. If 2025 is the year you're finally ready to start a business, make it easy to get your first sale by choosing Shopify, the sponsor of this episode. Shopify has the number one checkout on the planet, plus the shop pay feature that boosts conversions up to 50%, which means way less cart abandonment and way more sales going. If you want to grow your business, make sure you're ready to sell wherever your customers are. On the web, in your store, in their feed, upgrade your business and get the same checkout as Heinz and Alo yoga with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com ramit all lowercase go to shopify.com ramit to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com ramit now let's get back to the show and meet our second couple, Pam and Nick.

Please get on your feet and welcome. Pam and Nick. Welcome. Hello. How you doing?

Welcome.

Please.

Hi.

All right.

Hello.

How you doing?

Good.

How you feeling?

Nervous.

Nervous.

Okay. Can we give it up? We have the best community in the world. We're all here for you. By the way, I asked you to send a photo and you sent these great photos and my team selected one of the photos you sent. Can we take a look here? I do love the photo. I don't think I need many comments here.

Okay.

Now, Pam, I want to just jump right into what you wrote in your application for today. You said biggest challenge, trying to figure out whether my partner Nick can stop working given my high income. We both come from low income backgrounds and a lot of financial insecurity during our childhood. We both used to be avoiders and we're now trying to be in charge of our money. First of all, I got to say I really admire the fact that the two of you were avoiders, grew up in a low income environment, and you are here right now in New York talking about this in front of tons of people. To me, that's very inspiring.

Thank you.

What did you feel about money when you were growing up?

Never enough. There were times where we didn't have a home to live in and so it was something that we just didn't Have. And thus was sort of the crux of insecurity, lack of safety.

How did money work in your family? Did you have a dwindling bank account or a stack of cash in the house? What was it like?

I don't even know if my mom had a bank account. My mom was on welfare for most of my growing up. I remember very clearly a wad of cash that she would keep in her drunk her drawer in her bedroom. And I would just see through the month that roll getting smaller. And when it was out, we were like, okay, well, now we just have to make it through until the next check comes in the mail.

Wow. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. What about for you? How did you feel about money?

It was definitely. There was always a culture of working as hard as possible, like grinding to earn enough. I immigrated with my family when I was 10 years old, so there was also the switch to moving to the US and leaving everything behind and starting from zero and learning a new language. So it was just a lot of. Yeah, a lot of having to figure out how to earn money.

Wow. I don't think that many people can understand what it's like to move to a different country or to see a stack of cash getting smaller and smaller. And you know, that that is it. I think we all have some feeling where, oh, my God, is there going to be enough. And you're here today. You're here today because your financial situation has changed considerably. But there's some other issues, some other psychological and communication challenges I think still remain. Pam, how did you get into your current industry? Tech?

Yeah, I got my master's degree in Italian. And then when I graduated with that, I basically applied to like 200 jobs anywhere in the country that needed that skill set. And then I got hired by a tech startup that was working on teaching foreign languages.

Okay. A big one that probably people in this room have heard of.

Yeah, it's called Duolingo.

Okay. Okay. And then what were you doing there?

So I was working as a language expert, helping to create course content. Okay, so, like all the weird sentences. And then while I was there, I was working with a lot of bright software engineers, a lot of bright product designers, and I learned technical skills through that.

Okay, and take me forward to today. Where are you now? What do you do?

So now I work in software engineering. I do like large scale program management.

So you, you said, quote, I had no business in tech, but I kept learning and getting promoted. Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. Can we just take a look at the numbers? Okay, pop Them up. Let's take a look. Gross monthly income, if I just net it out for you, is $633,000 a year. That's what I love. That's what I love. You know, sometimes I have couples, they have all different incomes that come on stage. Sometimes they're in huge debt, sometimes they have huge incomes. And it's a little touchy to talk about a huge income. But on the occasions where I've brought couples up here who have a very high income, the crowd always cheers. And I really love you for that because we can support people who are in debt. We can support people who have huge incomes. The whole point of my work is that the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to how much you have in the bank. And so I really appreciate you sharing that. You have, you have $0 in assets, so that means you rent. Great. Your investments are $865,000. Fantastic. Savings. $69,000. Debt. 228.

That's all my student loans.

Ah, okay. We'll get to that. And I mean, the rest of this is like fixed costs are 38%.

Yeah.

That's what happens when you have a super high income. How do you feel about the numbers?

Amazing.

Great. Wow. Thank God I don't have to talk to another high earning couple that goes, oh, I don't know, 630, is it enough? Great. I love that answer. I feel amazing.

Great.

How about you? How do you feel about the numbers?

I feel like I'm really fortunate. My contribution is significantly less in terms of the totals. And. And I also come along with that debt component. I feel fortunate to be where we are together. Maybe a little bit of guilt in my portion.

Right.

Okay, so to clarify, you're not married. Are your finances combined or not?

We just moved in together in August and our goal is to merge finances and figure out what that looks like.

And Nick, what is your income?

My income?

Yeah.

153.

That's pretty good. It sounds like you say it like you're a little bit embarrassed. That's a very good income.

Right?

Well, I worked really hard to get there and then I made it and I met everyone that you know by comparison. I was like, oh, wait, I guess maybe I didn't do as well as I thought I was doing.

So, like, when we talk about comparing ourselves to the Joneses, it's literally this. Except it's income and not material things. Okay, well, we all think your income is great and combined. Great and combined. It's outstanding. So all Right, let's talk about that. Nick, you have debt. What is the debt from?

It's all school.

Okay.

How do you feel about it?

I wish I could have a conversation now with the person who decided to sign those loans.

What would you have said?

You can get this degree at a less expensive school.

What was the degree?

I'm a nurse practitioner.

Okay, so you got 228 or so thousand dollars of debt. Do you feel proud of the schooling that you went through?

Yeah, I worked really tremendously hard, so I am proud of that.

Do you feel ashamed of having the debt?

Yes, 100%.

How do you reconcile those two?

I guess the idea that I could have done it differently.

Okay. Kind of looking back, if I had changed this, I would be in a different place. Okay. How does that feeling of shame or regret, how does that affect your relationship?

There's sort of like, you know, the mean voice sort of in the back of my head that I'm bringing a burden into the relationship. And I told Pam early on that part of the reason that I would never marry somebody is because I'm not going to saddled them with poor decisions that I made.

Okay. Again, this was a decision to get a professional degree.

Yes.

Which makes you a good income.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right. If you had no debt, would you all be talking about marriage in a different way?

It's not the only reason. We have our own thoughts around marriage as a sort of institution.

Okay.

All right. So right now you don't plan to get married.

Totally.

Fine. And you're committed, you're living together, you're trying to figure out how to combine your finances, but you have this looming thing over your head with the quarter million dollars or so of debt.

Okay.

What's the solution that you've come up with?

So when I look at the debt we basically broke it out into, most of that is public loan that qualifies for the public service loan forgiveness. So we sort of decided to put that aside and think about the private part of that loan, which is around 56,000. And like, Nick upped her contribution to try to sort of get out of that debt faster. And I offered that I would like to contribute to. To that. To, like, so she's contributing like 1700 and I'm starting to contribute 2000 more than her on top of hers. Yeah.

Okay. I want everyone to think about what you would do if you're in this situation. It's quite interesting, Right? Lots of layers. How would you approach it? We ran some simple calculations because there's so Many things. There's forbearance. There's different policy changes that may happen. There's a lot of complexity. But when you have a big decision where there's like 50 different things, it's often easy to get paralyzed. Important thing is put all the minor things aside and focus on the two or three big things that matter. So in your case, Nick, you could pay it off at 1500 bucks a month. It'll take you about 13 and a half years. Did you know that?

Yes, I ran some numbers.

Oh, you did?

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Wow. Okay, great. Pam, you could match Nick's payment. That would take it down to 6.5 years. How do you all feel about that?

I feel good. I mean, I really. I want to get rid of it for her sake, but also like us as a team so that it's not something that we have to think about.

What about you, Nick?

I think that's really nice and generous.

Keep going. Is there a but?

There's not a but. It's a little bit uncomfortable accepting help, essentially.

Why?

Because I've essentially been on my own since I was 18 and worked really hard and pretty much just told myself I only have myself to count on. And I found myself in a really amazing situation that I have somebody I'm entirely in love with and want to spend my life with and is incredible and able to help me. And I. I'm working on feeling enthusiastic about that.

Yeah. Okay. That's pretty interesting. It's a perfect example of the way we feel about money is not correlated. Because if we just look at the numbers here, you could basically write a check or certainly pay it off very, very quickly. There are so many layers of this that are subtle and not obvious. Like, for example, the fact that when you get married, it's a contract with each other and with the state. So you know what happens if you separate now? Some people choose to do it, some people don't. It's totally fine. You just have to understand the ramifications of what that means. But the other layers I find even more interesting, which are we have a higher earner and a lower earner, and often there are these dynamics that come along with it. Have you noticed the dynamics that happen when one person earns a lot more than the other?

I don't think so, no.

Is it all like, how do you all split the money?

Well, so I actually follow this from watching some of your content. I proposed to Nick early on in our relationship that we should do proportional things, because when we added up our Income, I think I brought in, like, 75% and she brought in 25%. And so I said, like, that's how we should treat our expenses. Like, I'll cover 75% of the things, and then she covers.

Okay, that's good. Especially when you have a. You know, when you're in exactly the situation. Makes sense. But I'm going back to your question, Pam, which was, can my partner Nick stop working given my high income? Isn't that the question?

Yeah.

So how are you all navigating that we're here? You want me to just tell you the answer?

Yeah, please.

No, that's not how it works. That's not why people come to see me. Well, what do you think? What are the ingredients in the decision? Because technically, I guess she could quit.

Yeah, that's sort of how I was looking at it. Like, when I looked at our numbers together, I was like, you know, and it doesn't have to be right away or necessarily even, like, quit 100%, but could she reduce her workload? She works in an industry that's very draining.

Okay, maybe we should ask her. What do you think?

So I originally proposed we do this because it's something that she had sort of remarked on offhandedly a few times, that because I'm incredibly mentally and emotionally drained after work each day, and I end up feeling like I don't have a lot left of myself outside of work. And hearing me talk about this, she offered up, well, maybe you don't have to work as much.

How long after you bringing up your stressful workplace until you, Pam, suggested, maybe you don't need to work there. Was it a week or a year?

Pretty immediate.

Okay.

Yeah.

Big clue. Okay. So you're like, hey, maybe you shouldn't work, or you should cut back down. We have the income, et cetera.

Yeah. And I framed it more as, like, it's something we should consider. Like, as we're considering, like, we're thinking about our life, our future together. It's an option.

Okay. How decisive are the two of you with money? Okay. I think that kind of answers my question. Like, is there a lot of, like, collaboration. Let's talk about it. Versus I think this is what we should do. I think that's what we should do. And we hash it out. Which one is it?

I don't think there's a lot of planning.

Okay.

All right.

The reason I'm asking these questions is that I see this pattern a lot among couples, and I've observed it more with a male. Higher earner who's in a heterosexual relationship and he tells his partner who earns less, sometimes way less, hey, like, why don't you like quit that? You don't, you don't need to do it. And like, we have enough and it's great and I want to take care of you and I want you to be stressed and you can find something else. What do you think happens a year, two years, five years, 10 years later, something bad? That's a good read of a leading question. What do you think, Nick? What happens?

I mean, my natural fear is that there would be some sort of resentment.

Yeah, that could be it. Often it's very disempowering. It's very disempowering for the lower earner and it actually is done in good faith. Hey, we have the money. If you're stressed every day, cool it off for a while, chill, find something else, et cetera. But it can be quite disempowering. So in a way, when I see the same pattern, Nick, I see you nodding your head, what's going on?

Well, yeah, we could.

Yeah.

Do you see, like right now it's kind of like, it's a bit funny, but a year or two into it, it's not funny. It's actually quite disempowering. So my suggestion, if I can just be a little bit directive is first I would really rethink the way that you talk about your debt because you use the word ashamed. I don't find it shameful that you took on a lot of debt to get a great job. I think you made a calculated decision. Maybe you spent more than you could have, but you're a nurse practitioner, you have a great job. I think you should be very proud of that. Okay, And then next I would really encourage you to put more skin in the game for your finances. So just because Pam, you earn more, actually think that you should be asking, Nick, Nick, what do you think? What's your plan? And Nick, you've got to take the lead if you want to make a proposal where you say, look, I'd like to pay this debt off, I'm going to pay this much. It would be really nice. Although you don't have to. If you could contribute X dollars or I'm going to take a vacation or speak to my boss or find a different way of a lifestyle adjustment. But it's got to be you leading it because it's your debt. And trust me, when you do that, the fact that you already ran your numbers is very impressive. Most don't if you do that, you're going to feel more empowered. You're actually going to be substantively more a part of the financial conversation. And the two of you should always remember, just because one person makes more does not make them more valuable. So many different ways to contribute to a relationship, but you've both got to be active in it. How does that sound?

Right.

Okay, so the new theme is teammates. If I can gently suggest the new theme is decisive. With money, you can run the numbers, make a decision. You can always reevaluate it 12 months later, always. If the two of you can do that, I think you'll be very, very successful. All right, all right. Can we give it up? Pam and Nick, thank you. Thank you very much.

You know, I really love this conversation with Pam and Nick. A lot of times, money can be a tool that helps us solve problems, but actually that's not the case here. Yes, Pam can write a check and solve one of Nick's debt problems. That's the financial part. But it actually wouldn't do anything to solve the psychological part. It wouldn't help Nick feel any less shame. And in fact, it could be damaging to their relationship because Nick attaches a lot of self worth to what she can contribute financially. This is a very common dynamic. The higher earner often sees a problem that can theoretically be solved with money, and they think, okay, cool, I'll write a check, make this thing disappear. But that's not actually addressing the root cause, which is that Nick does not feel she is contributing as much because of her earnings compared to her partner. That's where the work is for Nick. If Pam simply waves a magic wand and takes away that debt or tells her you can quit your job, it won't erase that feeling of being less than for Nick. Even though Pam is trying to help. And this is why I love my job. I get to look at the whole picture. The money, the person, the dynamic of the couple. To me, the truth is, Nick should be proud, and I think she can get there, but she has to do it with her partner, not because of her partner. Real question for you. Do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important, and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and book this year's appointments today with ZocDoc ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. Instantly click through your options, book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com Ramit Zocdoc.com.

Ramit.

Let'S get back to the show. You're about to see something I have never done before.

Now I have one final surprise for you. This evening we have a third couple who volunteered at the very last minute. Here's their profile. The husband is a typical optimizer and the wife is. Well, let's just find out. For the first time ever on stage, introducing my wife, Cassandra Sethi. Whoa. How come you get more applause than I do? Wow.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Hey everyone. Hey, what's up, Brooklyn?

How does it feel to be out here? It's so cool.

It's so cool to see everyone. I'm usually in the audience, so it's cool to be up here.

Thank you for being here. Okay, I have some questions because you've never been on stage before.

No.

And you are highly requested by my entire community. So first question is, what is it like being married to an optimizer?

Good question. I would say now I enjoy. Took us a while to get here though because we have different money dials and money languages and. And now I have to say I appreciate Ramit's love of a good spreadsheet of running a compound interest calculator for fun. So these are things I love about him. I will say one thing though, that I thought all optimizers were good at Excel. So I was a little surprised to learn that Ramit did not know some basic formulas.

But okay, you now run the spreadsheets in our family.

Thank God for that formula.

She's so good. Okay, Wow. I think. Next up, how did it feel when we started combining our finances?

Yeah, for me it was very nerve wracking and we had a lot of very Difficult conversations as well. And now I realize it's because we come from different backgrounds with money, different cultures. We saw our life differently with money in it. And so we had a lot of conversations, easy and hard ones. We talked about the effort, feelings a lot, which I love.

Wait, tell them what you. What you asked me the other, like, two days ago when the book came out as a bestseller.

Yeah. So it was announced that his second book is a New York Times bestseller, which is awesome. And so I'm like, babe, how do you feel about this? And he's like, I feel good. I'm like, you can't use a G word. So in our household, you can't use good.

Yeah. She said, you're not allowed to use good. And I was like, oh, oh. And then I wish that we had the wheel of emotions. We got this. Yes, we got this.

We use refrigerator.

Yeah.

Literally. We got this from our therapist. And I was like, oh, my God, there's more than two feelings.

Yes.

All the guys in here take us.

Look it. People are taking pictures, you freaking nerds. No, it's good. It's actually really helpful. And had I had that, I would have said. I would have looked at the happy one. I would have said, I feel joyful. Like that.

Or.

No, you would have said, I feel happy.

That's it.

That's a true work in progress.

Yes.

Okay, final question. What do you wish you knew back then, like, early on in our relationship that you know now?

Yeah. I would say the power of doing individual work on money mindset really set us up to have a strong foundation together. So I did a lot of work with reading books. I hired a money mindset coach, and it also coincided when I started my business, so that was awesome.

I.

So we did a lot of work individually, and that has really paid off for us in the long term.

That is very true. Give it up.

Yeah.

You did an amazing amount of work about money psychology and how you felt about it, and it showed. It really showed. And then I think you were very clear you expected me to do a similar amount of work for feelings and being able to connect on the emotional.

Level.

Which has, like. It's been amazing. It's been transformative.

Yeah.

And now our conversations are fun. With money, we can dream together and plan out what we want to do. So it's been awesome.

Okay, let's give it up for Cassandra Sethi.

Wow.

Wow.

Too good.

That was amazing.

Love you.

Love you.

Let's give it up, Cassandra.

Was anyone as nervous as me seeing my wife come out on stage. I have to tell you, I was terrified. I'm not kidding. I'm used to getting out on stage in front of lots of people and the lights and it's freezing on stage and the noises. But asking Cassandra to come out made me incredibly nervous. I was nervous for her. And then she comes out on stage and crushes it. I. I could not believe it. I knew she would be good, even though I was nervous, but I didn't realize she would be that amazing on stage. And the funniest part is she has no interest in being on stage at all. She came out because I asked her to. And that is why I love doing what I do. Not only do I get to talk to couples about some of the most intimate things in their relationships, I'm having those same conversations with my wife. We're both talking about how we grew up and what we want to do with money, and I don't know if we should be spending this much on that thing. And then she comes out on stage and she gets to share her experience. So I want to give a huge thank you to my wife, Cassandra. And if you enjoyed seeing her, please leave a thank you in the comments. Remember, a lot of this podcast is because of her.

Wow. Let me close with a story that I have never told anyone. I just a few months ago went to my 20th college reunion and I was asked by one of my friends at my table, she said, what has become clear to you since we last met? That's a question I never heard before hearing Cassandra out here. It connects for me personally because you can see how far each of us has had to come in order to have a really happy, healthy relationship. And I was sitting out there on the quad at my reunion, the quad that I used to ride my bike to get to class every day for five years. And I flashback to 18 year old Ramit, 18 year old Ramit, who thought that success was about getting good grades and getting a good job. And he truly believed, if you get the right pedigree, then you will be happy. That's not what I told my friend. That's not the answer I gave her. I really thought about it and I said, you know, the most valuable thing that I have done in the last 20 years was to connect to my softer side, to connect with my feelings. And that meant becoming a better listener, becoming more compassionate with others, more compassionate with myself. And if you have followed along on my work for many years, you will see that that actually shows you how big of a difference it can make. When you truly turn the page on your identity, the old you won't even recognize who the new you has become. And I couldn't have done that transformation alone. I had friends, family, and especially my amazing wife who encouraged me to connect on a much deeper level. And that's one of the reasons that I talk about this stuff so much with money. It's not just about fiddling around with a spreadsheet. It's really about a total transformation of the way you look at money and feel about money. And I get to do that together with her because she has given me a new lens to view the world through. It's bigger, richer, more fun. And I will always remember that very special day with her. We were checking out of a hotel. I had gone to the parking lot to get the car and I drove the car around to pick her up and the valet saw me and he took one look at me and he took one look at my car. Honda Accord, four door LX V6. He looks back at me and he says, uber drivers pull over there. And I realized no matter how much money you have, the best and most priceless thing is to keep that sense of humor. I just hope Cass gives me a five star review in life. I appreciate you coming here. My best wish is that you share. Share what you have learned with everyone you love. Thank you, New York. Thank you.

You know, for me, the most important thing I want you to take away from this podcast is that your rich life is yours. It's not mine, it's not anybody else's. It's for you. If you want a beautiful car or a beautiful coat and you can afford it, fantastic. If you want to travel, if you want to pick your kids up from school every afternoon, Amazing. You decide what your rich life is now. I hope you can tell I love doing these shows.

I love them.

Being able to speak to couples in front of an audience, seeing the audience's reaction and going to different cities and hearing from you. I. I want to remind everyone how brave it is for these couples to come out on stage and talk about such an intimate topic. Antonio and Davante, Pam and Nick, thank you for sharing your stories and thank you to everyone for watching and listening to this podcast. Now let's check out their follow ups. First is Antonio and Devonte.

So after I sit down with you, we decided to take a look at our finances and also just to make some decisions and make some changes. So currently I no longer have 100 suits. I'm down to 10 suits now. So I Gave some away and I sold some. And so with the money that I got from selling the suits, we decided to use that to pay off our debt, got rid of that debt. So that was one of the big financial decisions that we decided to make.

That was a big emotional purchase for us. So to clear it, it was like, it felt good in a sense. And then we also, like, reduced the suits, but then we just also had like a more positive outlook on like our financial situation, knowing that it has so much potential to be so much more in the future if we like stay on this path and like stay focused. And we also like check in less now, checking like about money, like probably on a monthly basis as of right now. And it's been like so much, like less stressful in a sense.

It was a great experience and we're glad we got to talk to you and you got to give us that reassurance that we're on the right path and that we're doing good and also to not be so down about our finances and actually, you know, have a positive outlook. So we really appreciate you and thank you for that.

Thank you so much.

The biggest surprise for me was seeing that as a higher earner in our relationship, my instinct to offer to cover most of our expenses could actually be leaving Nick feeling disempowered. So a key takeaway for me has definitely been that I need to step back and let her share the lead on our money decisions. One of the key changes we've made is scheduling monthly money reviews. So we actually just had our January review and it was really awesome. We pulled up Ramit's list of money dials and we talked about which dials were important to each of us. And we shared examples of what we love spending on and called out which things weren't a priority to us. So that really helped us to agree on a specific amount for our shared guilt free spending. And now that we know that amount, it has allowed each of us to be creative and brainstorm ways to use it. Another key change is that we're having more future focused conversations. So we're talking about financial, legal, health care protections that we want to have for our relationship. And we've actually set a goal to get those documents drafted this month. Ramit pointed out that we have previously struggled with being decisive, so that's something we're definitely working on. I just want to say thank you to Ramit and the entire team for all of the thoughtful advice.

I've always been really avoidant when it comes to money, but I didn't recognize how that was translating into my relationship with Pam and we pride ourselves on functioning as a team and not being an active participant when it came to our shared numbers. I was really leaving her on her own to take the lead and I was mostly just feeling lucky to be there. I am fully engaged, often initiating discussions myself and that has really provided fruitful opportunities to collaborate and dream towards building our rich life. The major sources of financial stress and really shame were my student loans and feeling behind in my retirement savings. I've increased my contributions to my employer retirement account from 6 to 16% and so I'll be maxing that out this year for my loans. I created a plan to pay off my private student loan before the end of the year while my federal loan is in deferment. And since that loan qualifies for Public Service Loan forgiveness, it will be eligible for forgiveness after 75 more payments, which means I would be debt free in a little over seven years. So there have been so many small but decisive changes made since we began this process and they all add up to me feeling a lot more confident, which is not something that I ever thought I could feel about money and also really optimistic about our future.

Sam.