219. “He’s so cheap it’s killing our joy”

We're living too little of a life is the problem. He just says no all the time.

I just cringe. It's not about her. It's about the spending, the money going out. I don't want the experience. I don't need it.

One of my hobbies is also bargain shopping and it drives him crazy. So he'll say, why do we need eight jars of peanut butter? And I'll say, because they were $1.99. So I'm actually saving us money.

How often do you talk about this?

Oh, almost every day.

Every day? Almost every day.

Why are we wasting money on ridiculous food that no one eats?

So finally we went and we had a really good time. And then when we left, he said, okay, that's off your bucket list now, right? Check. Mark that off.

What was with that comment?

Stop adding things to your list of things to go out and spend money on. I need to control and that's what it comes down to.

Listen to this line from their application. I just worry that life is passing us by and we can be doing and spending more on life. We never eat out. Vacations are once a year. He always thinks we are poor. I need someone to tell him that we are okay money wise so he can live life before it's too late. Today I'm speaking with Angela and Brian. They're both 52 years old. They've been together since they were in high school and they've been married for 28 years. They've raised four children together and soon they will be empty nesters. But right now money is pulling them apart. Angela is saying, is this all life is going to be? Now let's look at the numbers on their conscious spending plan or CSP. You can download your own copy of the CSP for free@iwt.com CSP it's the exact tool I use in every episode. Income $188,000. Assets 961,000. Investments 890,000. Debt 294,000. Total net worth 1.57 million. Fixed costs 72% investments 35%. Okay, at 52, we have some good progress here. They're investing aggressively. They've built real wealth. But 72% on fixed costs is a red flag, especially at their ages. I imagine they are feeling very tight with money. And it also sounds like Angela's ready to enjoy life. But Brian thinks they are broke, which, looking at their numbers, that is clearly not the case. I have a lot of questions. Let's get into it.

Angela, in your application you wrote I think we are totally fine and can retire in five years.

He thinks if we don't have 50.

Grand in the bank, we can never retire.

True.

Tell me about that.

I know our money, I know what we spend. We're very frugal and I just want to start living life a little bit more now. Where Brian, on the other hand, worries about every single penny and I think feels like we need to have a billion dollars before we can retire. So my fear is that he'll be working till he's 80 and I'm ready to retire when I'm 55.

Is it a billion or $50,000? Exactly.

Probably both. Combined billion and $50,000.

How do you feel hearing the application that Angela wrote?

I don't know what the magic number is. So in my mind I have no concept of what I need to live whatever life it's going to be. And I don't even know what that looks like. You talk about the rich life. I've been going through it all week in my mind. What's my rich life? I have no idea.

Okay.

And I'm trying to get grips on that to figure out what I need to say. Okay, I'm done or I'm going to work part time or whatever. I have no concept of this.

Is it a number?

Years ago my father in law said, well, we need a million dollars to retire. I don't even know where that number came from. I'm still trying to figure that out.

Do you have you believed that number?

I have believed that number since he told me probably when I was 18. I mean, I've been dating her since I've been eight, you know, long time ago. 18?

Yeah.

So many, many years ago when you first met, you heard your father in law say we need a million dollars to retire. And so you took that to heart as an 18 year old.

I did.

Let's talk about where you are today. So what is your current retirement plan?

We have a lot. We both fully fund our Roth IRA. I have a 403B because I'm a teacher. I also have a pension. And then Brian has a 401K.

Okay.

Do you know your numbers?

Yes, I do.

Wow.

Okay. I love that confidence. Amazing.

I just cried the other day.

Is that true?

Yes.

I teared up inside because it had lost 50,000. I didn't even want to look at it because I knew with the market was just crashing. I'm like, I can't do it. I only looked at it because we have to prepare for this.

Yeah.

Why do you think you both see retirement differently?

I think she feels that we're at a comfortable place financially right now or our plan going forward. I don't see that. I think we just need more. I wish I would have started much earlier. Obviously can't get that time back. So we're just trying to max out what we can now. But I just think I need to keep working until I feel we're ready. I guess in my mind. And she's readier sooner than we're living.

Too little of a life is the problem. We really are not spending any money. Like we just don't spend money. We tried to talk about when the last time we went out to eat and I think it was two years ago.

Is that right?

Yes.

Where'd you go?

3Rd and Ferry. Just a little restaurant that had like fun seafood specials. We had a day off of work and we went like a Wednesday afternoon for lunch.

No occasion, just. You both had the day off?

Yeah.

I probably begged him to go.

What was that like?

It was really fun. We enjoyed ourselves. We enjoyed the lunch. We walked around the little town afterwards and we said we're going to do this more often. And it was probably two years ago.

What happened from that day till now? Why have you not gone out to eat?

He just says no all the time. We have food here at home.

Paint the picture. I have to hear this conversation. So do you bring up going out.

To eat all the time?

Walk me through. Let's recreate the last conversation.

Yes. All I said the other day, the melting pot has this special where we can do half price fondue. That would be really fun. Do you want to do that one night?

Definitely not. I have no interest in going out. All. Not one.

And it's half price.

I said she has a short bucket list of or a long bucket list of things she likes to accomplish. Whatever it may be. Restaurants being one of them. Right. I have been out recently. Like I'll take my kids out to Chinese buffet for their birthday, have one on one time.

And how come you take your kids out but not your wife out?

He feels like it's a requirement.

I feel like I owe them something. This is.

Yeah.

Okay. This is part of your birthday gift, so to speak. And they enjoy going out meal.

Where are we gonna go?

That kind of thing.

Just wait.

Yeah.

You feel like you owe your kids something for their birthday.

Right?

Right.

Okay. What about your wife?

I guess I'm screwed on that one because I owe you same level respects.

What if it's not her birthday?

Probably we're not going out because I don't want to spend the money.

Okay.

Because we have food here. I just don't want to go out. And it's taken away from our relationship. If that means so much to her. Yeah, I'll make it a priority going forward. Maybe just quarterly. We'll go out.

Well, come on.

I don't.

I don't believe that.

You all been married 28 years. You know it's a priority. She's been asking you, like, every week for the last 20 years.

I know.

It's just.

I don't see a point. Can we do something else? That's my thought.

If we do do something on my bucket list, then it's like a check mark. So, like, I wanted to go to a happy hour recently, and it was on a Tuesday night, and he was like, why does it have to be a Tuesday? Why does it have to be a Tuesday? So finally we went and we had a really good time and we enjoyed it. And then when we left, he said, okay, that's off your bucket list now. Right? Check mark that off.

So, okay, let's zoom in on that. What was with that comment?

Stop adding things to your list of things to go out and spend money on. I know this was only six bucks. It was a flight of beer. It was a craft brewery type thing. It was ambiance. It was us talking, connecting one on one type of thing. I just cringed. It's not about her. It's about the spending the money going out. I don't want the experience. I don't need it. Maybe I don't need the alcohol. Maybe I don't need the extra food. I need the controls. And that's what it comes down to.

Can we do this exact same conversation, but can we just flip roles? So in this scenario, Angela, you don't want to go out. You don't want the calories, you don't want the drinks. You just don't want it. And, Brian, you have been wanting to go out for years. You want to connect. You don't care how much it costs. It's not the point. It's not even an expensive place.

Right.

You just want to go out and spend time with your partner.

Yeah.

So everybody get into their role.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm gonna be Brian.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. And I would like for you to have that same conversation as each other. Go ahead.

Yeah. I can't wait. Tonight we're going out to the proper brewing.

I'm not going.

What? We planned on this.

No, no. I decided I want to spend the money.

You know, they have happy hour, five to seven, free munchies. They have a band that's coming in too crowded.

I don't need the calories. We have food at home.

We've been planning this for months.

I know, but money. We don't need the food. We can just stay home. Maybe next week.

Got it.

Okay. That seemed to come very easy to both of you. What did it feel like?

That was great.

It's just excuses making excuses. There's always excuses.

To me, it felt like a bit of a performance. And to me also, when I see you acting as yourselves, it also feels like a performance. How does that strike you?

I feel as though, like, okay, when we retire officially, whenever that is, we have time for that stuff. Right now it's about, you know, you relax when you come home from work, I'll do my thing. And it's kind of like, I don't know.

What about the performance aspect?

Yeah, I don't. I don't know what you mean by that exactly.

Like, too dramatic. Like. Like excuses.

Like, each of you is a caricature. Like, Brian, you are the grumpy older.

Guy who is like, dude, we don't need that. Yeah, like, we'll do it someday.

Just kind of a reflexive no to anything that's asked. And even when you are begrudgingly dragged there by your wife, then you have a comment at the end, like, God, check it off the list.

That's 100% who he is.

Okay, maybe, yeah.

That's, in my opinion, playing a character.

Right.

And then we have the wife who desperately wants to connect with her husband.

Wants to spend time. It doesn't matter how much is.

In fact, when I ask to do.

Something, I'm going to emphasize how little it costs. It's only a happy hour. It's only five to seven and they have a live band. Let me please convince you to do this with me. Please. Just this one thing.

Exactly.

Yeah, a performance. What if. Just didn't do it? What if you just chose to play different roles?

What if.

I'm not saying you have to, but what if you did? What would happen?

You mean if I flipped the script and I started wanting to go out? Just what we role played, that kind of thing.

Maybe that could be one. Or maybe it could be a different.

Role or maybe whatever.

But what if you just played different roles? Is that possible?

Yeah. I'm not going to say impossible, likely, improbable.

Okay, what about for you?

For me to change my role? Yeah, I Feel like I already have because I don't ask as much anymore or I will do the things that are on my to do list with a friend or one of the kids. We spend a lot of time together. It's just not those going out experiences. Yeah, yeah.

You can't change that. Right. Can't change your rules.

Anything's possible to be honest with you.

Okay, what's the vision for your retired pension?

I would like the travel, which is we've talked about getting an RV and traveling across the country, but I also want to travel internationally. I just really want to travel.

Okay. All right.

And Brian, I would say capital T travel is as well as the top of my list, but it's going to be on the cheap, I think.

What was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?

I think the pre work was a lot like that overwhelms me like we need to pull these numbers, we need to look for this, go find this number. Go find our last car insurance, things like that. But putting the numbers on paper, paper. I felt good about it and I think we worked good as a team.

Yeah. She had it all set up. Grand Central Station on the table there and just gave me tests.

How long did it take you?

A couple days at least what it felt like because there was just numbers she was asking for that I couldn't find right away.

Sure. Our numbers were super accurate.

By the way, Brian, when I asked how was it filling it out, I noticed you let out a big sigh.

I was relieved at the end.

Yeah, but what about the part before the end?

Yeah, I was just on edge.

Why?

I'm getting better. No, why, why was it irritable? I don't want to see them as as much the numbers because anxiety, fear, you know that back to that whole situation that oh, is this all we have? We don't have enough.

How are we going to do this?

My father in law said a million. Are we on the right track? Are we going to get there? There's no way we can retire. I mean these are the things that got me on edge.

This interesting, this reference to your father in law. So you're 52 years old.

Yeah.

So you heard that like roughly 30 years ago.

Oh yeah, high school.

How interesting. These phrases that we hear when we're younger and they stick with us.

Yeah.

They can alter the trajectory of our life for sure.

Of our relationship.

The that your dad making this comment can echo in time 30 years later when you're talking about going to happy hour.

Yeah.

And I don't Even remember him saying that.

Is he still with us? Yes. What does he say now?

I just dropped him off at the airport today. They're heading to Florida.

But what did he say about a million dollars?

I did not ask him.

He brought it up once.

You've never brought it up.

And you let it guide your life.

Never again.

What is happening right now?

Should we get him on the phone?

But I said we could.

We could.

What I said to Brian this morning was, why are you even thinking about his financial advice when he keeps his money under his mattress? So he's not.

Dear God.

Yeah.

Isn't this fascinating? Brian has been holding on to a single number for his entire Adult Life. $1 million. That's the number Brian heard when he was 18 from his father in law. And he just absorbed it. He didn't question it. He adopted it as gospel. And that single number, that single offhanded comment has shaped how he sees money and retirement and even his marriage. This is the power of one offhand comment. It's not a spreadsheet. It's not a budget. It's just a sentence that he heard that calcified into a deeply held belief that decades later is now affecting every relationship about money with his wife. Sad truth is, if Brian still believes that number is the goal, but he can't define what retirement looks like or how much it costs, then no amount of money will ever feel like enough. That's why he can't enjoy a $6 happy hour. You know the most ironic part of this whole story? His father in law isn't even someone he admires when it comes to money. It's like taking dating advice from your uncle who's been divorced three times and lives in his grandma's basement. Just because someone says something with confidence when you're 18 years old does not mean you should let that shape your entire worldview. And yet, Brian's been living by that million dollar Myth for over 30 years. After this, I'm going to dig into their numbers. You know, I love spending time in New York, but every time I'm there in the summer, I forget how hot it really is. You step off the subway, it's like walking into a freaking oven. Your shirt is sticking to you. I don't know about you, I got sweat dripping down my back. And if you sweat like that, a great way to stay hydrated is with this episode's sponsor, Element. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix. No sugar, no food, dyes, no junk. It's used by Navy Seal teams, Olympic athletes, and a bunch of pro sports teams. People keep using it because it works. You stay hydrated. You feel better. It tastes good. Perfect for hot days, travel days, or anytime you just want something that hits without a sugar crash. Get a free 8 count sample pack of elements. Most popular drink Mix flavors with any purchase@drinklmnt.com ramit find your favorite element, flavor or share it with a friend and it's totally risk free. If you don't like it, they'll refund you, no questions asked. This deal is only available through the link in my description below or go to drinklmnt.com ramit that's drinklmnt.com ramIt check out this message I recently got from a listener, Shannon. She wrote, we've been waiting to buy a mattress for at least five years and we needed one bad. But we always heard your voice saying it's not an investment. We heard your Lisa ad on the last podcast. We pulled the plug. We bought one after saving up. It was just under $2,000 with your discounts. Thanks. This is why I talk about purchases like mattresses. When you've saved up for a mattress and you want one that feels great, check out Lisa Shannon. Thank you for sending your feedback in. Leesa offers several different mattress models, so whether you sleep on your side, your back, or somewhere in between, there's one built for you. They use the highest quality materials and meticulously design and assemble every mattress in America. Delivery is free, returns are easy, and you have a hundred nights to try out your mattress in the comfort of your home. And with Leesa, your purchase has a purpose. Every year they donate thousands of mattresses to those in need, with over 41,000 donated to date. Right now during Lisa's Labor Day early access sale, go to Lisa.com for 25% off mattresses, plus get an extra $50 off with promo code Ramit. That's exclusive for my listeners. That's L e e s a.com promo code ramit for 25% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off leesa.com promo code ramit remember, no matter who you are, there's a Lisa just for you.

Does he enjoy his money?

No.

No.

Does he live the kind of life that you want to live?

No.

No.

Oh, I don't even know what that is, but it's not that.

We should definitely follow his advice. Let's look at the numbers. Let's see here. Angela, can you read the word in bold?

Oh gosh, can I?

And the number in full next to it.

Assets? No, I actually can't.

Is it too small?

I'll make it bigger.

I see it.

Okay, go ahead.

$961,000.

Great. Investments?

891,873.

$891,000. Yep.

Savings.

$15,718.

And debt?

$294,000. $294,342.

Perfect.

Total net worth.

$1,574,000.

$1.5 million. Okay. How do you feel about those numbers?

I think they look great. He never saw that 1.5 before. I didn't want him to see that net worth before he saw it here to get his true reaction.

Wow.

Are you from the TV industry or what? That's a classic producer move.

Get it on camera. Well done.

And Brian, what do you think? $1.5 million.

It looks good on paper. Is it real?

Wow.

A depressing answer to an otherwise seven figure number. Let's not even take a second to celebrate it. Because we don't celebrate it. We just worry about what's coming next.

Oh, doom and gloom.

Sound familiar?

Yeah, it does.

Absolutely.

Well, the thing is, you're in your 50s. You can keep living this way. You can. Or you can change the entire way that you individually relate to money and you collectively.

Mm.

To realize that for your entire adult life you've been working towards having $1 million and you actually have 50% more than that. You were worried 20 minutes ago.

Yeah.

We just discovered that your financial life is way different, probably better than you thought. It did not change a single feeling. Not even for a second.

It did. It was split second. I internalized it. You didn't see a hit.

The goal post always moves.

I don't even mind goals moving. I don't. Yeah, I don't mind goals moving. I mind if they're moving without a reason.

Right.

If it's somebody who is just picking a number, holding their finger in the air and then I go, why? They go, I don't know. My father in law said it 30 years ago.

Yeah.

I go, that's how you're making decisions.

Right.

And like literally we're not talking about just a couple of small decisions like happy hour. We're talking about what retirement looks like. So today, actually, really excited to get a chance to add a little bit of intellectual rigor to the way you're thinking about money. Okay, let's look at the rest of these numbers.

Income, Angela GROSS, monthly combined income 15,674.

Cool. So you have a household income of $188,000. What do you think about that income?

I actually think it's great.

I'm. Yeah, I'm thrilled.

Who's the person who makes double? The other Brian makes double what? Angela?

Absolutely.

Got it. Okay, cool. That's a very good income. Great job. Fixed costs are at 72%. Yeah. It's a bit high.

Very high.

Shall we take a look?

Yeah.

Your mortgage is 3500 bucks. Okay. We have a car payment of 641. No debt. Groceries of 500 bucks a month for two kids at home and two adults.

Totally.

Wow.

Yes.

Nice.

Nice work. Phone at 107 and subscriptions at six dollars a month. That can't be right.

It is six.

What are you getting for six?

Two dollars. I pay extra for Apple storage.

Okay.

And four dollars. He does the MLB app.

Okay. That's it.

Only in baseball season.

Like, I'm like, did you all leave.

A couple of zeros off this?

No.

It's literally $6.

No.

Do you have Netflix or something like that? None of that.

I do like Discovery and we have Hulu, but we put that up with.

Our TV or whatever.

Yeah, exactly. Cable. We did that with cable. Okay.

Honestly, this is the lowest subscription number I've ever seen. That is correct.

Like, I have to give you a round of applause.

It's actually amazing.

I've never seen it. Look at the numbers. They look fake on the page.

2, 4, 6.

I'm like, what is this?

They do look fake.

Accurate. I can't believe it. You mentioned in your application, like, we are extremely frugal.

We don't spend money on anything. And I think $6 for a family of four and two kids out of the house is. That is very frugal.

Thank you.

Okay. And yet your fixed cost.

Yeah. Why? It seems crazy.

Why do you think that is?

I often think, is our mortgage too high? But there's nothing we can do about that. We actually pay extra in that mortgage, so we pay 400 extra into that.

What's your interest rate?

3.3. That tells me a lot.

Your housing cost is okay. It's 27%. When we factor it all in, usually we like to see below 28. It's very difficult to get that. You have a very low interest rate.

And you're paying extra.

So it's probably more like 22 or something. You do have 750 bucks in utilities and you have insurance for 600 bucks. You have a car, expenses for 641.

All that stuff adds up.

Even with a high income, it's not horrible. And actually we could drop this number right now. Like, I'll just drop it right now. Instead of 350 1, I'll drop it to 3, 1 1.

Okay.

Yeah, you're at 67%, which is okay.

It's not that. Investments at 35%. Okay. So we have your post tax and pre tax.

So you're investing 3,000 bucks a month. That's good. And your investments are $891,000. Okay, very good. As you get older, particularly if people started late in life, that number needs to be high. A lot higher than most people are comfortable with.

Yeah.

So this is nice.

Are you saving money for anything at all? Any savings?

Both of our checks just automatically get deposited into our savings. And that's.

Then you use it from there.

Yeah, we just use it from there. Sometimes if our account gets high high, we'll take some out and like throw it into a cd.

Huh.

It's because I don't want that money locked up for a long time. So I'm like, I could throw it in for six months and make 4%.

Yeah, don't. Don't do that.

Okay.

Who taught you that?

My dad.

My dad.

Get your dad.

You know what?

We have your dad here.

Come on.

Why is your dad post in this.

Relationship and your dad, who doesn't really use money effectively?

What is happening right now?

Oh, no, I don't.

Dad is telling you in 1968, you gotta buy a CD. It's so good. It's illiquid, but it's good. What? The CD make no sense anymore.

Do you spend any money guilt free? You don't really go out to a restaurant. Maybe you go out to the happy hour place, you know, every month or whatever. Couple of months, not much. Anything else needs.

You know, if I need light bulbs, the mower breaks and I have to fix it.

If the. That's a rich life.

Yeah, I know. Totally right?

I love my light bulbs.

If something breaks, I need it to fix it.

Yeah, he's going Friday night.

Yeah, that's. That's the only. That's one of the few things that I would do.

Hold on, hold on. You're going to a concert?

Yeah. Yep.

I love that.

Yep.

I noticed that. When she said he's going to a concert, your immediate reaction was to defend it. Can you try it again and this time accept it? Yeah, I'm going to a concert.

I'm going to concert and.

Oh, that's definitely guilt free spending for me. I usually go by myself because I enjoy it and A band from the 80s is going to be playing in the Poconos.

Which band?

Winger.

Winger.

What do they say? What? I know.

17. Madeline. This is from the late 80s.

Okay, so you are having some guilt free spending. It's just not properly classified as such. It just kind of comes from this slush fund.

Exactly. And that's why we don't necessarily put anything to savings. But all of our money goes in savings.

Yeah, but I do want to point out that if one or both of you got laid off, you have two months worth of savings. That's risky.

Yeah, it's typically not that low, but we bought cars and then our financial advisor told us because what?

We were trying to time the market.

What the. I didn't know about this. Tell me.

Well, this has just happened recently, so.

Typically we would pull $600 out of our checking account each month for both of us.

The Roth.

To fund the Roth. Okay, so he just said because the numbers dipped. Why don't we max it out? Just max it out. So we took.

What is this guy worth? Hold on.

Does this guy work for Northwestern Mutual or was he your high school buddy?

Which one is he from my school district.

So he's preying on you and other school teachers.

These.

Yeah.

Okay, so this is your financial advisor?

Yes.

Colleague.

Not a colleague that's like serves job. Yeah, he just serves teachers. And I did just find out because I hear you say it all the time about paying a flat fee versus the percentage he definitely charges. He charges me 0.8% and he charges 0.9% to Brian because he doesn't have as much money in that.

I Do you think that's good or bad?

I don't know.

It's bad.

Yes, it's bad. So you're paying to get horrible advice.

I guess you're right. We trust because we pulled 6,600 plus 6,600 out of our checking account last week and four fully funded our raw through the end of the year.

Well, that's fine.

Okay, so that wasn't bad advice.

No, it's not necessarily bad. It's the principle of trying to time the market.

Yeah.

No credible advisor would tell you that. Whether it's up, whether it's down, we want to do it consistently. So I don't like that. I don't like a 0.8 and 0.9% fee, which over time would cost you.

A lot of money.

I don't like that you got this guy through your school district. I don't like a lot of this.

Okay.

How long you been paying this guy? Please don't tell me.

Decades.

10 years. But I mean, the positive about that is it started me investing from the day I started working. I was a stay at home mom for 13 and a half years, so I had no retirement. I carry the health insurance and I fund my retirement. And then what comes in the mail or comes into my checking account every week is literally $1,059. That's what I make every two weeks. Because they were my goals to fund my retirement. Which, you know, it looks pretty good after just 10 years, but, yeah, that is where I met him.

Okay, now I think I understand a little bit more about the numbers.

Let me ask about you.

Can you think of a time recently where you were not on the same page with money?

Oh, my gosh. If you want us to talk about the whole food issue, we argue about this all the time. And I have a very. I'm always justifying. I justify money all the time.

You're justifying this answer to me.

I am justifying this to you. So I'm the shopper in the house. So I do all the grocery shopping, but one of my hobbies is also bargain shopping. So in our area, we have lots of like, bargain grocery store type places. So I just hit them once a week. And if something that I buy regular is on special, I will stock up on it. And it drives him crazy. So he'll say, why do we need eight jars of peanut butter? And I'll say, because they were 1.99. And he'll say, but we don't need eight. And I'm like, but then next week I would go to the store and they'd be 3.99. So I'm actually saving us money. He doesn't like that.

How often do you talk about this?

Oh, almost every day.

Every day? Almost every day. Not always peanut butter. It's mozzarella cheese. It's fruit snacks. Pop tarts, Granola bars. Protein bars.

Like how many granola bars?

How many can you count? How high can you count?

10 different types, 10 different boxes.

10 different boxes.

So 10 boxes of six?

Yep.

Okay, 60 granola bars.

All right, what else? Let's move on to nuts.

Okay.

Okay. I don't know. Planters, nuts, Cashews.

Cashews.

Some other nut covered in something. Another not covered in something.

So I just bought them and they were 99 cents. So I bought six bags of the savory type and six bags of the cappuccino flavor, and they will be gone.

There's 30 bags of chips. You name any chip in the world and it's in our pantry.

Why do you get two bags of.

Chips, not 30 bags of chips? That's just the pantry.

When you see these large volumes of snacks, what does it say to you?

I just want to throw up.

Okay. Why?

Because it's just wasteful.

It's just.

It's going to go stale. The kids don't eat it. She thinks she's feeding the kids or feeding someone.

It's terrible.

Why are we wasting money on ridiculous food that no one eats? So I went in there and I just went ballistic. So I got a trash bag, 30 gallon trash bag full of anything. Fruit snacks, gummies, fruit roll ups. Pulled that whole thing out like Santa. And I threw it in the bedroom and it sat in the bedroom for about six weeks. That's just one aspect. If I go to my fridge in the garage, that's our alternate fridge. There's 30 packages of mozzarella in there. I don't eat mozzarella. Sam doesn't eat it. Larson doesn't eat it, and she doesn't eat it. I don't know who's eating this stuff. Our two kids that come and visit for, like, two days, I don't care if they were a dollar per package. That's a dollar out of my gas tank. That's a dollar that I'm not funding something.

That's his line.

That's a waste.

What's the line?

It could have been a dollar in the gas tank.

And what does that make you feel when you hear that?

Oh, it's frustrating because I have very much changed my ways. So now when I am shopping, it's almost like I have handcuffs on. Like, I'll look at something and, well.

How many handcuffs can you have? You're buying 600. Prot. It doesn't sound like they're that strong. She goes, I got handcuffs on. I just take them off with protein water. No, you don't.

You don't understand what I mentally go through in the grocery store. So, like, I literally will pick something up. I'll be like, wow, that's a great price. But then I'll have to look at the calories because, you know, my one daughter's gluten free and dairy free. The other one's worried about this. He's worried about calories. So it's a struggle with every single product. Like, this is a great product. I wish I could buy it, but I don't know who's gonna eat it. I Better not. And then I put it back.

So can I tell you, it sounds very dramatic. It almost sounds like we're on Broadway and it's a play. Each person's playing their part. Yeah. We have Brian. Oh, my gosh. What?

Yeah, Right.

Every time.

Every time. Pulling in a Santa Claus type bag over his shoulder. And then we have Angela going, like, you don't understand. I used to buy more. And also, I'm saving money because otherwise I would be paying three times more for that peanut butter. It's pretty funny, but is this the way you want to spend the rest of your life?

No.

No, no.

Why do you do it? You must be getting something out of.

It, because I'm set in my ways now with the way I shop.

Oh.

Like I have to buy bargain shopping.

I do.

That's who I am.

Yeah.

It's true.

Okay.

I consider it one of my hobbies.

Okay. How do you think that this hobby is served?

I feel like I'm being responsible to our household because I feel like the four of us being able to eat for $500 is great. I also think, what would my other hobby be and how much money would I be spending if I chose a different hobby? And I physically cannot go to a regular grocery store and pay those prices.

Oh, you physically can.

I physically can. Every other way cannot.

Wow.

Brian just saw his net worth for the first time, and it was $1.5 million. Did you see it? Angela had to stage the reveal just to get a live reaction, and his response tells me everything about his money mindset. Did you see it looks good on paper. This is what happens when you've trained yourself to worry for 30 years. Even when you've been working towards a number and you discover you have 50% more than that number at age 52. Even when you are financially okay, your default worldview is doom. This is what so many people in the hyper frugalista world don't realize. If your entire worldview is about how little you can spend, how risky money is, how there'll never be enough, then even when you have more than enough, your feelings will not change. Now, zoom out. Look at what's really going on here. Arguments about peanut butter, trash bags full of fruit snacks, spending time and energy discussing the fine points of mozzarella. This is not just quirky behavior. This is what I call the sitcom dynamic. I write about it in my book, Money for Couples. Now, we all know a couple like this. The couple that bickers like it's their love language. They jab each other. They finish each other's complaints. Everybody laughs at dinner parties, but they just keep doing it over and over again. It's like a rerun. And at first it's kind of funny, might even be charming. But when you realize they've been doing this for decades, it's actually quite sad. Angela and Brian are playing characters. She's the coupon queen in the grocery aisle who still somehow buys 600 protein bars. He's the grumpy guy pulling granola bars out of the pantry and dumping them in the trash. Both of these are performances. They both think they are being productive. This bickering gives them a false sense of progress. But the truth is they are stuck in a dynamic that feels familiar and safe, but it is actually eroding their connection. 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It'S interesting that the hobby for you, the primary sense of joy seems to be how much value can I get? In other words, how little can I pay and get good stuff. But on your application you wrote we.

Never eat out or go out. We save money whenever we can.

It's hard to know we are financially fine, yet he thinks we are poor.

That's all.

Yeah, I agree that's a problem. But what role do you have in contributing to this?

Gosh, I don't know. I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. I really don't. Other than maybe the quantity of what I bring things in. And like I said, I do feel like I have curved that. But if you told me you can't bargain shop anymore, you need to just go to a regular grocery store and buy one jar of peanut butter, that would go against every grain in my body. I would rather not eat.

You mean that?

I really do.

Playing so small that your hobby is shopping in bulk for kids that are grown and don't even really eat this stuff. Husband coming in with his ho ho ho bag saying oh this sucks.

Yeah.

What I really want you to see is the characters you're playing. If they are the characters you want to play, amazing. I'll help you play them even better. But I actually don't think you like the characters you are playing. And what you may not realize is you don't have to play characters at all. What part were you playing?

The justifier.

Yes. I need to gather all the information to convince my obstinate husband.

Why?

To say yes, because by default he's going to say no. And Brian, what role were you playing.

In probably the Victim? Like I have to do this again.

Wow.

It's something quite chilling about hearing somebody talk about that with their.

Again, that's tongue in cheek.

But.

But do you?

Yeah.

Is it though? Because here I am talking about playing characters. You guys have been married 28 years and the sitcom dynamic is not working for me. Like tongue in cheek saying like I'm the victim cuz I got to spend time with my wife. I don't find it funny. And I think you guys have found a way to camouflage what is ultimately some serious disagreements and pain with laughter.

And jokes and jabs.

Guys, I would never talk to my wife like that. The role you're playing, besides the tongue in cheek role of actually something I.

Think is quite hurtful, is the decider.

Let her bring the data to me.

And I will evaluate it and Decree what we will do.

Right.

Why do you decide?

Why don't you decide?

Why have you agreed on this role where you have to plead and beg? Oh, please, let me provide you the data. Please decide in my way why she could always go.

I'd never stop her if she wanted to do something.

That's not my question. Anyone can always go.

Yeah.

You two are married.

She wants to go with you.

Yeah.

Why are you the one who decides?

I.

Why? I'm not saying.

I'm not saying what should be.

I'm saying why is that role the.

One that has emerged?

Don't know. Let's do something that doesn't require money. How I feel. I don't want to spend the money.

I really want my life to be full of experiences and doing things and going places. And he More is a homebody. And like you said, when he comes home from work, he does want to eat dinner, hang with the kids for a little workout and go to bed early.

Okay. Can you make it work with both of your visions?

Yeah, I mean, as long as we book it in advance and it's not off the cuff and the financial piece is justified.

Oh, that.

It's.

How do we tell if it's justified?

That's probably my.

Oh, so you.

My rulebook.

You're the decider.

The decider.

You guys see how you've created this tautology?

Yeah.

Oh, sure. We can reconcile our mutually disagreed views if we plan in advance and this thing happens. And also ultimately, I'm the decider of whether it's financially justified or not. Do I know about our numbers?

No.

I don't even know our net worth as recently as 10 minutes ago.

But I will decide.

Does it sound absurd?

As I say it all, it does sound absurd.

And yet you've been doing it for almost 30 years.

Yeah.

You want to keep doing it? Wow, I didn't hear a no in that. That's interesting. You know what? Let me just tell you something.

If you want to keep doing it, I don't mind.

Trust me.

I'm not here to change your mind.

Right.

Please remember, you came to me.

Yeah.

So if you tell me.

Ramit, we actually like the way it works.

I won't change you if you don't want to change. But I don't think you've actually ever thought deeply about the dynamics between the two of you and money.

It's that food bill that is the biggest overarching issue right now.

A 500?

I'm just saying, the excessive purchase of fruit snacks. What we'll just fruit snacks. There's 30 boxes of cereal in that pan. I'm just saying, why don't you take.

Over the grocery purchases, drop it to 250. It shouldn't be too hard, right?

Yeah. She wouldn't. It wouldn't fly.

1.

I don't have the patience for it. And I really. I do appreciate that. She does. She's awesome at it. Oh, she's awesome at it.

But if it could be 250, I mean, surely that's a lot of money, right? It's a lot of gas money. So why don't you just take it? She'll let you. I bet I could convince her.

It may work. There probably won't be too much food. It would just be the staples in the house.

What's wrong with that?

It would make me happy.

We don't need waste.

So we don't need waste.

Cut the waste.

Yeah.

250Amonth. You'd have 250 extra per month. That's a lot of money.

Yeah.

Sounds good. What do you think, Angela?

No, because it's my hobby.

Ah.

And I don't want him doing it. Sometimes I do send him to the store, and I know this is like those $3 things we shouldn't be worrying about, but if I send him to the store for something I worry about, like, how much is he going to spend? Is he going to price check? What brands are you going to buy? Like, what's he going to get? So it's just easier for me to be like, I'm really busy, but I'll stop at the store and get it.

Yeah.

I do want control over purchases.

The only time I go to the grocery store would be for, say, my staples. I'm getting chicken or oatmeal or something that's safe because I've gotten burned. You know, the dumb buffoon husband that comes home. You spent $3 more on that. Whatever it is, when, you know, I get it at this price, those days are over. I'm not making that mistake.

And I don't know that when I done that last.

She's a great bargain shopper. Awesome. Awesome. But just slow down on the excessive nature of it that we don't need. It ends up in the trash can. It's wasteful, and it's money that could go elsewhere.

Where would it go?

Go in my gas tank. It would go in the Roth ira. It would go somewhere. It would go in the savings.

You guys have a lot of good answers for every question. You're just still not getting anywhere. You notice that?

I totally noticed. I've been fighting this fight for a long time.

It's not a fight. You both walked into a spider web of your own making. And you could easily get out at any time. Easily. But you actually enjoy being in it. You like the cobweb. You like being stuck and trapped. You like the drama. There's actually no reason for you to change, Right? I mean, look, I actually offered to have Brian take over the groceries, and even Angela said, nope. I know. Cover me in cobwebs.

I like it.

Even right there with an offer where it would have been quite amusing and interesting to see Brian do it. And would he have realized you can't cut a family of four down to 250? He would have realized it instantly. But you wouldn't allow it.

I feel like that's a role that we just felt. It's just my job to do that. Like, it's his job to take out the trash and do the dishes, and it's my job to do the laundry and do the groceries. I just. That would be hard for me to give up.

Okay, don't. Again, it's totally up to you.

Yeah.

What do you want to do? Because right now, we haven't changed a single thing. It came out of your way. I want to help. What do you want to do?

I really want to be more on the same page with our future. I never thought of us playing, like, these caricatures, like you're saying, and it freaks me out a little. But why does it freak you out? Because I feel like I'm a really real person, and I don't feel like I'm playing a character. I mean, we've been together for a really long time, and we have a really good relationship, and we have fun together. Do we go out to eat? No. Do I wish we'd go more? Yes. But I think over time, you just adapt, and I've just adapted to that. The type of personality he has. And like I say, it's not that I don't do things. I'm just not always doing them with him.

Did you catch that? Angela just told me she wants to get on the same page, and then she immediately walked it back. Well, we have a good relationship. We have fun together. I've just adapted. When people are thinking about change, they usually experience a lot of resistance. There's a voice in the back of their head that says, you're actually fine. It's not that bad. We actually really love each other. Okay, you can love each other and still want to change. What's really happening here is that that voice in your head wants you to stay exactly as you are, not change. Because change is scary and uncomfortable. Staying the same is comfortable. Now, I'm not here to change a dynamic just to be provocative, but I am going to push when I hear someone say I want to change, and then they immediately start convincing themselves that they don't actually want to change. Listen as I challenge Angela on the very reason she applied to speak with me.

So I agree that you don't have to do everything with your partner, and your partner's not going to like to do everything that you want to do. I understand that. That's normal. But you applied. Why?

Because I think we're at opposite ends of the spectrum with our finances, and I really feel like we are. Okay. And like I said, I don't think we need to work until we're 65 to then be able to travel.

So if I told you right now you don't have to work until you're 65, would it change anything?

I would believe you.

Okay.

Right.

I would believe you. But I think I need to work just for my sense of feeling unproductive. I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to be sitting home watching tv. You know, I feel like I need to. And it might as well be an earner along with working.

I just worry that we've worked super, super, super hard and our numbers are what our numbers are and that we're living too little of a life. I also kind of play the role with him where I want him to live a bigger life, and he's very happy being simple, but I want him to live that bigger life. A perfect example is the other day, Wawa had free coffee day, and he loves blueberry coffee. And throughout the day, he had three blueberry coffees. And he was so excited about this. And the next text to him literally was, you know, you can go get a Wawa blueberry coffee any day you want, but he won't spend the $2 on himself to get a blueberry Wawa coffee.

Wow.

He's just making his life too simple.

Wow.

And that's sad for me.

Yeah. And I don't think I deserve it just because I can make my own coffee at home. That's not the point. The point is, if I need something, a light bulb, part, piece of weight, equipment to better myself, that's all I really need. I don't need to be live more than what I need.

What does your Wife need.

She needs more relationship connection, which I'm probably not providing. I think the older we get, the more apart we grow. Be honest with you. I mean, that's clearly what today shows tell me that money aside, I think until the kids. And again, I'm using kids an excuse. That's a poor excuse. But until the kids leave, say they leave whenever, in a few years, maybe that's where things come back. And it's a big maybe. But I think we just kind of grown apart over the years for whatever reason.

And not even so much apart. More that.

More distant.

Can I. Yeah. First of all, that's pretty honest. So I really appreciate that. It's not easy to say. It's very courageous to say, especially as a couple in your 50s. And I'm sure you have friends and others who have approached being empty nesters. And that's a scary time. And then as you think about that with retirement, that can be really scary. One both changing or losing their identity. That's not easy. It's scary for women in. In ways. It's scary for men in other ways. And for couples. You said that it's clear you've grown apart. Maybe that will change when the kids leave. Maybe. I hope it does. But you probably know couples who. It's gotten worse when kids left.

I want to jump in quickly because this is pretty heartbreaking. Angela sees how small their life has become, and she's right. It didn't happen all at once. It happened $2 at a time. This is the hidden cost of decades of frugality. First you do it for a reason, then you do it out of habit. And sometimes you start to believe you don't deserve anything else. It goes beyond saving money on coffee. And sometimes in situations like this, you start to realize how narrow your life has become. And then Brian said something that really stopped me cold. He said, I think the older we get, the more we grow apart. It's one of the most honest things that he says in this entire conversation, and I think it's one of the saddest. I see this all the time. Couples are sharing a home, sharing a bank account, but they haven't actually sat down and had a substantive conversation about money in decades. Sometimes they haven't asked each other a question in years. It's lonely. Money can keep us apart if we let it. When you don't have a rich life vision, every financial decision becomes reactive. You cut back. You track every dollar. You argue over pennies, each of you retreating to your own corner of the ring. Because there's no bigger picture guiding you. Sometimes you might even start to see your spouse as your financial enemy. I suspect sometimes money is a convenient distraction from deeper issues. If you're listening to this and thinking we don't actually have a Rich Life vision either, then I created a free guide to help you create yours. You can do it fast and it is fun to do. Download the free guide@iwt.com richlife now listen as I challenge their perspective Such an interesting twist of human nature to see how people spend freely on some of the largest purchases of their life, but then obsess over tiny little things like pudding cups. I just spoke to a couple that has a house pool, three cars, a jet ski, yet they buy discounted lunch meat that's close to expiring.

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Is it money that's stopping you from connecting or is that a convenient excuse?

That's convenient excuse. The only glaring thing is that excessive, you know, smaller purchase stuff, you know.

Can I just tell you right now, 500amonth on groceries is not excessive. Your family spends half of what another equivalent family would spend. Like you're not even close to excess.

I never. I never personally understood why people spend so much.

That's okay. You don't have to understand.

I don't. I'm just saying I for me. And I appreciate what you do. Getting all the weekly groceries. You're the best at it. So I just settled for you being excessive in your own nature with stuff we don't need and end up throwing away.

Can I ask it a different way? Yeah. Settling is one way to put it. It's a bit of a loaded term. What if it costs $100 a month for Angela to have a hobby? Doesn't hurt anybody. She's entertained, she's productive and feels productive. And once in a while you have some extra stuff you can donate or whatever. A hundred bucks a month? What would you say to that?

Yeah, I never thought about it that way. And that's actually what ended up happening. I took the fruit snacks and donate them to the school.

Great.

Kids loved em. And within 10 minutes, boom. They were all gone.

I wish you would've just bought the fruit snacks and took em right to the school. Yeah, that would've made me happy. Cause I'm donating.

She could have, but she didn't. But it doesn't change anything. A hundred dollars a month changes Nothing out of $188,000 a year. Literally nothing. But what I think is more haunting truth is that your admission that you've drifted apart. If you want to reverse that, I think you really could. I think there's a lot of things you could do. This is just one of them. But it would take totally reconceptualizing your relationship with money, with each other. What do you think?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think we can do it.

Oh yeah, no doubt.

How would you start going to happy hour?

I guess I'm going to happy hour next week.

Can you say that again as if you want to do it? Because it's about connecting with your wife, not losing.

Yeah.

You know, I think the jokes have to stop. Think of yourself not as characters, but as wearing masks. The mask that you each wear is what describe it in detail. What is the mask that you wear when it comes to money in your relationship?

Probably just a frown. Debbie Downer.

Yeah, I like that. Keep going.

You know, maybe a blank face. Maybe just, like, no reaction. You're talking to a wall, almost.

Yeah, just like, never getting excited. What else is under the mask?

Temperatures. Cold. You know, we had to put a temperature to it. Neutral cold. Arms folded. Yeah.

Operating off an old script that some person said who doesn't even know what they're talking about. A million dollars. Then it turns out you have more than 50% more. Doesn't change a thing. Not particularly knowledgeable about money.

Right.

Very perplexing. The decider is actually the one who doesn't even know that much about money. Kind of weird, all of these things now. Can you flip it? Take that mask off. What's under it?

Under it? Exuberant but reserved at the same time. It's almost like I want to do more but step on the brakes.

Why?

I don't know. I don't know if it's old ideology. It's not comfortable in my skin. As far as finances go, that's why she handles it. I don't want to know where the money's going, but yet I don't want to buy something unless it's needed.

It's kind of like your. Kind of like you're a backseat driver. You don't want to grocery shop, but you want her to cut it by half. You don't want to know where the money's going, not even to the point of knowing your net worth, but you know that she's spending too much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's kind of this.

Yeah, you're right.

It's like, if you want to have a strong point of view on the money, okay, fine. But you got to get involved.

Yeah.

Angela, any of this sound familiar? Or you ever tell them that stop being a backseat driver?

Not those words, but I usually say, we have the money, we're fine. You don't have to worry about that. We can afford that.

Does that ever work?

Sometimes.

Doesn't sound like it works. He's even saying no.

Wow.

Reassuring people who don't understand money, reassuring them by pointing at numbers.

Never works.

That, I think, is the main reason why I'm here. Yes, that is. That is the reason why I'm here.

You wanted somebody else who's knowledgeable. Maybe a man. I don't know if it has to do with being a man or not to say, hey, she was right. You're actually okay. Hoping that Me saying that reaches him and then, like, happily ever after. You can go out to dinner and take trips.

Maybe.

Maybe that sounds good.

Is that what you wanted?

I sometimes play, like, a mother role with him and, like, just going back to that coffee. He's a very hard worker, and we've saved a lot, and I think we've lived a really good life, even though we've saved a lot. So by me just saying, we have enough money. We can do that, and then him just always saying, no, I never wanted to do it. I just feel sad that we're not living a bigger life. And it comes down, I think, to money for you a lot of the times.

It sure does.

And you're also a homebody, though, so that sort of plays.

Yeah, that's.

It's not always about money. It's not always.

Are you justifying for him?

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm always justifying.

Why don't you stop doing that?

Okay. I should.

What needs to happen is exactly that you're making the case for me.

Yeah.

The minute either of you starts trying to advocate for yourself, you start justifying for the other. Especially you, Angela.

Like, what?

This has happened, like, 20 times in this conversation. So you end up spinning.

Spinning.

And then you're back, like, you just run out of breath. It's not money. You have enough money. It's. You have 50% more than he even thought.

Right.

It's not money.

Come on. We have to be honest with ourselves. And I think you were making some very bold points about taking off the mask. You're exuberant, but I think the word you're looking for is scared or nervous. Yeah, I'm nervous that if I go out to this dinner, I might like it, then I might want to do it all the time, or I enjoyed this coffee for free, but if I do it once a week, then I might do it once a day. And that's wasteful. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

But you didn't let him get there.

And you didn't take the initiative to talk about it. We're talking around it, all of us. We've been talking around it for 30 years. The reason that I'm getting, like, a little agitated is that you have a long life ahead of you, many decades to get. But also that time goes very quickly.

Yeah.

That's why I keep repeating to you, you can go on the way you've gone. You'll take one vacation a year, you'll play this drama in the pantry, your kids will leave, and that's it. But, Angela, you wrote to me saying, I think we're living too small of a life. What would it look like if you changed your spending to better align with a new rich life?

What would I do?

Yeah.

I know it's going to sound simple, but go out to eat. I would even say just once a month.

Okay, sounds good. Where would you go?

Somewhere on my list.

Would you go solo? Would you go together?

Oh, no, I would go together.

Okay.

I like that. And the rv? If and when you get an rv, would that be your primary home?

I don't know that we could have it as our primary home.

You'd keep this house?

No, no. Definitely not.

We've talked about once the kids move out.

Oh, you'd sell it?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's too big of a house.

How much will you make from it?

About 500,000.

Yeah. And then find. Move into, like, a smaller rancher or smaller rancher.

You make 500,000. Wow. You're going to be multi millionaires.

Sure.

You're going to be able to afford to eat out once a month as having $2 million?

Yes, we can afford to eat out.

Shall we run your retirement numbers?

Yes.

Let's assume that you retire in five years.

Okay.

Would that be a fair place to start?

Mm, yeah.

If you retire in five years, you'll have $1.48 million. We assume a 3% withdrawal rate, not a typical 4 or 3 because you would be younger. I want to make sure you don't run out of money. This number is a little flexible, but just assume it. Social Security plus a 10k pension, you'd have about $84,500 in safe withdrawal income. If you retire in 10 years, you'll have $2.3 million. As it currently stands, if we assume a 4% withdrawal rate plus Social Security, plus a 10k pension, you'll have $130,000 in safe withdrawal income. What do you think about that?

That sounds better.

Yeah, I agree.

That sounds very doable.

What is your natural inclination like right now, hearing these two things? What is. What do you naturally feel, Brian?

Work two more years than that, get to 65.

Get to 65. Okay.

That puts us about 63 or so, give or take.

So work to 65, you'd have even more. Maybe it'd be 1, 135 or something like that.

Okay, cool.

Yeah. That's your natural inclination. I hear that loud and clear. Angela, how about you?

Same thing. Five years wouldn't be doable.

Mm.

I'll do 10, not 12.

Okay.

So there's A little bit of disagreement here and there. Maybe one of you retires a couple years early.

Okay, that's fine.

So I like this. What we're doing now is we're going from the clouds to the street. We're like grounding it.

Yeah.

It's not just about feelings, these abstract feelings and 28 year old arguments. It's like, no, let's look at some numbers. Let's start to get real. Like, time is ticking. I will tell you that my natural inclination would be, first off, I need to run the numbers carefully. Because if we sell the house and we don't have a car payment and we're not paying for kids to eat.

But we're also eating out more and.

Traveling more, like how much do we actually need? Because I'm not trying to make my biggest life decision based on vibes. I need actual numbers. So that's the first thing I would do. The second thing my natural inclination is, is how do we get there faster?

Yeah, yeah.

The thing is, you actually could get there faster. It might mean incomes. You could take some of your expenses, which are, I don't think, properly categorized. An extra 500 bucks a month could be found and put it towards investments. And that could substantially change the outcome. Do you see that when we're talking at this level, suddenly Fruit Roll Ups is not the issue? That's actually like so small and insignificant. Maybe you need to buy less Fruit Roll Ups.

Maybe.

But telling Angela, stop buying Fruit Roll Ups. So wasteful won't do it. But actually saying like, hey, if we're able to cut our X, Y, z costs by $600 a month and direct it to investments, we can retire one year earlier.

Yeah, that's powerful.

Does that reach you?

That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.

When you play small for too long, that's all you know. And part of the reason I want to talk to you is to zoom out, be like, no, these are the big, big life decisions.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I agree.

The question I would be asking is, how do we make the next 10 years magical? Not wait. I'll never wait 10 years.

I agree.

I won't even wait 2 years.

How do we make the next 10 years magical? What's the answer to that?

Travel now, go out to dinner more, make moments count. And it doesn't always have to include money.

Yeah. I think money aside, it's got to be us first, you know, money second. Because this is the foundation. This is why we're together for 28 years. Plus, you know, this has got to work. First before the money, that's becomes kind of insignificant. You know, it's just numbers.

So how do you do it?

I think I need to. What's the word?

Say yes.

Yeah. I mean, not give in, but compromise. And that's what I need to do. I think I need to be a better husband and compromise and, you know, kind of rebuild the foundation of this relationship.

Yeah. How would you do that?

Be together more often, Spend more quality time.

Well, I think you spend a lot of time together, right? You go on hikes, you're at home, you see each other.

Probably not enough. I mean, because now we're. We're kind of singular, you know, we're our own separate islands after work, for the most part, unless we have a function or a date or something to do together. So we have to build more time or reserve more time to do more together things.

Should we just do it right now? Because I feel like there's a lot of talk.

Yeah, we're here.

Break it down for me, you know, Sunday through Saturday. When do you want to spend more time together? And what is the time? Let's go one by one. Go ahead. Pick a day.

Pick a day. Wednesday.

What do you want to do on Wednesday?

Wednesday's gonna be our designated take the dogs to local park. That doesn't have any ticks.

What's your reaction?

I think that sounds great. I love walking, and the dogs would enjoy going for a walk.

Awesome. Okay, Angela, your turn.

How about if we go back to the brewery on Tuesday night? Or try the melting pot? Let's just try it. We never did fondue.

Yes, dear.

Would you like to do that?

Is that once a week?

Well, we'll try it this week and see how we feel about it.

Okay, cool.

How do you feel about that?

Feel great.

Cool. You know what? I really like that answer. I think sometimes. Sometimes we just have to say yes and our feelings change later. It's like, yes.

No.

In fact, like, I'll tell you my philosophy. I think it is so rare for your partner to be genuinely excited by something, especially the later on you are in life. You know, there's like. There's a lot of just dreariness, you know, like life and kids and work.

It's difficult, honestly.

What a gift that your partner comes.

To you and they're excited.

Could be the blueberry coffee.

Yeah.

Could be going to the melting pot. My general reaction is yes. Unless I'm, like, philosophically opposed to it or some crazy thing.

Yeah.

I'm just like, oh, my God, it is so Rare to see your partner get excited and lit up.

Yeah.

I want to reward that. I want to do it, and I want to see that kind of energy in my relationship. Right. And then she instinctively does the same for me.

Yeah.

That's connected. So awesome. I love that. Okay, Brian, what would it take for you to feel safe enough to retire?

I want her to work or stop working whenever she feels though she is ready. I mean, I can continue to work forever if that's what it came down to. But based on the numbers, I'm very encouraged that maybe I don't have to work till I'm 70. So today I feel a bit relieved, I think a little bit more comforted that I have a little bit of protection.

The two of you have so many different options. You two could retire at different times. That's common. But I don't think any of it happens if you're not actually connected. Starting right now.

Yeah.

Like you already mentioned, Brian, you've drifted apart.

Yeah.

And you continue to drift apart as kids leave. So unless that comes first.

Yeah.

And that involves spending time together, which we just mapped out. That's a great first drop. It also means spending money meaningfully.

Agree.

Right. And I think actually getting to where Brian is suggesting something literally. It could be we're going to Wawa and we're going to get two blueberry coffees.

Yeah.

It literally could be that.

It actually does not matter what it is.

Yeah, you're right.

You would be excited, right?

I would be, yes.

I'm in.

Yes, absolutely.

So getting those adventurous feelings back and whether it's joining a group together or trying some new stuff like that brings you way closer.

Yeah.

And if it costs 10 bucks or 50 bucks, you will have millions.

Right? Yeah. That feels good.

All right.

What surprised you most during our conversation? Angela?

I have a little anxiety about, like, you saying us wearing masks and being characters, because I feel like we're very real with each other. So that does concern me. I have anxiety about that.

Okay. Concern, anxiety. These are all things that I think are good to explore. Not hide away, run towards those. Don't run away. Brian, what surprised you about our conversation?

Just kind of peeling the layers away and kind of getting down to what's significant and what is insignificant. And we've determined that my concerns are. They're there just. Just in the grand scheme of things. When we zoom globally, we see its insignificance that all my angst, anger, rage, it's all for nothing when it comes down to it, because 25, 50 years from now, whatever. It'll be just like, why did you waste that time? The mental anguish on that. Just giving her more pain doesn't get us anywhere. I think you need to peel back some of these layers and get things a little closer or in touch with how you really feel. And not just put the wall back up and just lash out, which is the easiest thing, you know, to go to.

Yeah. How do you feel now versus when we first sat down to talk?

I feel a sense of relief. All right, we got this. We're kind of on the right path. Let's shore things up, let's get them tighter, and then things will just fall into place.

How about you, Angela?

What I'm happiest about is I think when I approach Brian with ideas, that I'll have more yeses now.

Nice.

Yeah. So I think that's a really big thing. It's part of us living too little of a life. But, yeah, I. I see things going definitely in a positive way.

I'd like to give a little bit of homework if I could.

Yeah.

So you suggested Angela, the melting pot for, I think, next week.

Yeah.

Brian, I'd like for you to plan a date night within two weeks.

Okay.

So it's. You two decide within two weeks. But, Brian, it's up to you. It's gotta involve a little bit of money.

Okay.

And that's it. Keep it. Keep it as simple as that and as broad as that. You do whatever you want, whatever is meaningful for the two of you, but bring it up same way that Angela does. She comes to you, she's got a plan. Same thing.

Okay.

What I want to do is balance a little bit more of these conversations about money, about life. I know, Angela, you've been doing a lot of, you know, like, tracking.

Yeah.

And my hope is that you can zoom out and focus on the numbers that are meaningful.

Yeah.

I talk a lot about getting into $3 questions versus the $30,000.

Absolutely.

These $30,000 actually matter a lot to you, especially because you want to retire earlier or have the option to.

Right.

So I would like for you to get tighter with your numbers. That means going through the book together. I will teach you to be rich book and the money for couples book. Talking about that, you can have a book club. One of you can run one book, the other can run the other. I'd like for you to really absorb what happened today. There's a lot of things. Conversations about roles and masks and going together and going apart.

It's pretty deep.

I want that North Star. What Is our rich life. Do we have the ability to retire? Is one of us retiring? Are we going part time? Are we doing the rv? Okay, let's start there. Then we can figure out how to make the money work. In order to do that, you got to start with what you felt today.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right. Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate it.

Thank you, Ramit.

You know, Angela and Brian didn't come here for tips on grocery budgeting. They came here because their life feels too small. Ironically, they have the money. If they wanted to retire in five, six, seven years, they probably could. They could pay less on their mortgage. They could redirect that money to investments. They could find an extra 500 bucks and accelerate their timeline. That's just math. But our conversation has not been about math. A lot of us hide behind complicated math because it's easier to say, I don't understand how a solo 401k works than admitting you and your partner might not actually share the same rich life vision. Or worse, you're afraid to even ask what theirs is. And yet, until you create a shared vision, a shared goal, a shared why, you're going to keep repeating the same old arguments and you're going to keep up the same performance of the sitcom dynamic, which honestly is very difficult to change after 30 years of marriage. And if you don't change year by year by year, you drift a little bit further apart. That's the real cost here. I don't care about granola bars. I care about time and intimacy. If they both decide to take a totally fresh look at their relationship with money and with each other, actually think they could make dramatic changes in just a few months. It'll be hard, really hard, but I think it's worth it. Angela and Brian, I want to thank you for being so open for coming on, having this vulnerable conversation and being willing to stick with it for the entire time that we spoke, you've already proven that you can have these difficult conversations. Now, my encouragement to you is that it is time to build something big, better for the next chapter of your life together. Now let's check out their follow ups.

My biggest surprise, that our retirement projection is estimated close to 1.5 million. This number provides some comfort and relief as we prepare for retirement years from now. The lesson I learned was that ultimately our relationship stability is far more important than our financial stability. Another takeaway is the importance of open communication and shared financial crisis goals. In addition to investing our money, we need to invest into time spent with each other. Don't Sweat over the small stuff like fruit snacks. Although this conversation was difficult for me, it taught me to emphasize personal responsibility, mindset shifts, and the pursuit of a rich life beyond wealth. Specific changes I made thus far. I'm in the process of moving both Roth IRAs over to Vanguard. I am striving to be more respectful and kind to my wife, to be a better husband, and by reducing negativity and open to sharing more life experiences and creating lasting memories. Much gratitude, Ramit. Thank you.

Our biggest surprise by far was that 72% of our expenses are fixed expenses. That's crazy to me. I thought we were really doing good with fixed, but that's just a crazy number. The other surprise was the way our relationship was portrayed. I know it was just a snapshot of two hours, but I did have a lot of anxiety about it. But then I realized that that was not really us. We spend a lot of meaningful time together. Maybe it's just not going out to eat, and maybe that is actually not important. My takeaway is I can't retire in five years. Maybe I don't have to wait 10 years. My other takeaway was maybe it's not about the money. We spend money on things that are meaningful to us, but maybe we're just simple people that just don't spend a lot of money. I think we're very conscious on the money that we spend and deliberate about it. So it's not that we're cheap, it's just if I don't want to spend money on something, I'm not going to spend money on it. I am setting up a meeting with my school to see if my pension, if I'm being charged for that. If I am, I'm going to change that. So I'm no longer charged. And I decided to bump my $700 up to $1,000 per pay period. So where am I getting that extra $600? I'm picking up extra shifts at the amusement park, which is my bonus job, because I actually enjoy that. And if I can work and I enjoy it and make the little bit of money, why not? The only other thing that we're considering is not paying extra on our mortgage and instead just putting that into our emergency fund so we can build that.

I received this email from Angela and Brian. We're feeling stuck. We've been intentional, but it's hard to tell if we've done enough or what comes next. At one point we thought we wanted to retire in five years. Now we realize we enjoy our work. We can take more vacations without giving it all up. But we still don't know what the next step should be. We feel like we've done our homework. Now we're just waiting for our next assignment. First of all, I really appreciate the follow up. I want to gently push back. I loved our conversation and I am here to be your guide. But nobody can design your rich life but you. Nobody can overcome your financial challenges but you. And nobody can live your rich life but you. I think that right now you are looking at this as an assignment as if you are waiting for somebody to tell you what the next step is. But the entire point of the podcast, in fact the Entire point of 21 years of my work, is that your rich life is yours. I don't think you need help with the difference between a traditional and a Roth ira. If so, you can get it in my book. I think you need to make decisions about what comes next. You, both of you together. And when you do that, you're going to suddenly discover the difference in going passive, which is so common for so many of us to actively designing the kind of life you want. Thank you again. Please keep me updated and I wish you both the best.