265. "We spend 179% of what we make. Are we screwed?"

You said it, I listened. A lot of you have been asking for me to do more around single people and money. It's time to do it. I am casting a new reality series about love and money. So if you are single and you live in LA, I want to talk to you. Go to iwt.com/datingshow. And if you got friends who are single in LA, send them the link, iwt.com/datingshow.

Don't want a big house, don't want a fancy car, just want the debt gone.

You took a $75,000 pay cut You bought this house, but then you still decided to build a pool?

Yeah.

How much did the pool cost?

Like $120,000.

That was just the pool.

Where does the money come from for all of these things?

Everything goes on the credit card.

Did you run math? Wow, it got extremely silent in here. What is this number?

179%.

Which I believe may be the highest fixed cost number I've ever seen.

Oh no.

You are drowning.

Yeah. I think in my head, if we don't buy a house again, we won't get into that situation.

But you will.

I just feel like we've failed.

The question that should consume you is, how did we get here? And what's going to stop us from getting right back in here? And I'm not hearing much of that. It is just a matter of time until you run out of money. The clock is ticking. What happens when you build your entire life around an income that suddenly disappears? Today I'm speaking with Melissa and Taren. They're in their 40s. They live in Los Angeles with their 5 children. They have a net worth of over $700,000 and almost half a million $1.4 million invested. But today their fixed costs are at 179%. That means they are spending more than they make every single month. Let's take a deeper look at the numbers in their conscious spending plan, or CSP. And if you want my help to take control of your money, you can join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching. Assets: $1.4 million. Investments, $495,000. Savings, $50,000. Debt, $1.2 million. For a total net worth of $761,000. Their income— wow— is $11,900 per month. That income is wildly out of pace with the rest of their major expenses. You know, at first when you meet this couple, you think it's about a layoff. And an unaffordable house and a $200,000 pool. But about halfway through our conversation, Melissa and Taren share something I did not know coming in. 8 years ago, they lost a child. And I wanna mention that now because this conversation becomes quite serious. It touches on grief and loss of a child, and that may be difficult for some viewers to hear. When they told me, their spending started to make a lot more sense.

Mm-hmm.

It helped me understand there was a lot more going on here besides eating out and credit cards and a few purchases they couldn't afford. So now let's meet Melissa and Taren. Now, I understand that you recently experienced a major change in your finances.

Yes.

Can you walk me through what happened?

Yeah, I was laid off from my job, and so obviously a huge hit financially, but also emotionally. Netflix is an amazing company to work for. And so just gutted to not be there anymore. But unfortunately, reorgs happen, things happen. But that definitely took a hit. I think we've always relied heavily on my steady income for the past 20-plus years.

Okay.

Not the whole 20-plus years, but I was being paid very well. So definitely took a huge hit.

How much were you making?

When I started out, well, towards the end, when I say I was making well, it was probably $350,000.

Wow, that's a lot.

That's the peak. I didn't start at that, but I worked my way up to that over several years. Then there was layoffs that happened about 3 years ago. I kind of knew things might be happening and my job may be impacted, so I started looking for other roles within the company. And fortunately for me, I was able to find another role. However, it was a very different role. And so I took a $75,000 decrease in salary because I was no longer managing a team, that sort of thing. Still being paid very well. My salary was then $275,000. The last 2, 3 years have been $275,000.

Can I ask you a question? When you decided to switch roles internally and you took that $75,000 pay cut, did you adjust your household spending?

Hmm.

Probably not. I mean, I— no.

Well—

I mean, I feel like when we bought the house, we did. Because we knew buying the house was like—

Okay, wait, no, timeout.

Okay.

We were renting at the time, and we're like, we're in a weird spot with where we were renting because there was issues with the building. We had to move out, all this stuff. So we were like, what do we do? Do we buy a house and build a pool so I can teach and build my business?

Your business being?

I teach survival swim lessons to infants and children. So we were like, let's get a house and build a pool that I can teach because we couldn't find a house with a pool. And that way I can bring more money because I can make really good money. And so that was our next plan of action. When we bought the house, it was based on her original salary before the reorg, and she took the decrease. So we went into it like, cool, we can pay this mortgage, we'll be good. And then the reorg happened. The decrease in her salary happened. And that's when it started hitting us. Like when we got into the house, how much everything was really gonna cost.

Had you bought the house before the reorg happened or after?

Didn't we sign off?

We literally signed the papers.

The day of.

The day before I got laid off. The Monday confirming her salary and Thursday she got laid off when it closed.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the timing was like, okay, maybe this all happened 'cause like we're supposed to like build a pool and And we were like, let's invest in her career.

Like, since mine is like, we don't really kind of know what's happening. I'm getting paid less.

But you took a $75,000 pay cut. You bought this house, and now you're moving into it based on the old salary, but then you still decided to build the pool.

Yeah.

How much did the pool cost?

Like $120,000.

That was just the pool.

What else is there?

Oh, concrete, fencing that had to go around to build the pool.

How much total?

Electric panel.

Oh, we put in like $100,000, another $100,000.

So $220,000. Should we just call it $250,000?

Yeah.

Sure. And this is after a $75,000 pay cut?

Yeah. Yes.

Okay. When did it start hitting you that you were financially in over your heads?

I think immediately. Like, we, so we knew what the pool would cost to build, and I think we just weren't thinking about all the other things that were gonna be added on after that.

Like, but then I also knew with my business, that I'm like, oh, I can teach this many kids and make this much money.

And she could be at home.

And easily like, and be home. Because I was a stay-at-home mom. I can go out and teach. I can do it when the kids are napping, whatever. I can make it like early in the mornings when she's home before she goes to work, in the evenings when she's home from work. And so for that, I was like, I can make the money. Like, we'll just pay this off.

Did it work? It worked.

I built my business and it's great and it's booming. Then all these other things started happening with the house. It was like new AC, like—

Termites.

Termite, like just little car problems, like all the little things.

Wait, don't skip over it. I love these.

What else? Our front gate, you know, one of those electric gates, you know, we put what, I don't know, like $1,500 into that just recently because it broke. We had a leak, so we had to have mold remediation. We had to fix the leak. God, what else?

Oh, the hedges. Yeah, these beautiful hedges that cost like $2,000 a year to maintain.

And there's like a big hill in the back of our yard that has to be, you know, for fire purposes Where does the money come from for all of these things? Credit cards.

Really?

Yeah, a lot of it.

You mentioned that immediately after getting the house, you realized you were in over your financial head.

Mm-hmm.

And so what happened next?

We ended up taking a personal loan from some family.

Okay.

To pay for all these extra things, the concrete, the fencing, the electrical panel, all the things that help, that go to building the pool so that she could then start her business.

How much did they loan you?

It was $100,000.

Okay.

Yeah. And the deal was they wanted it paid off in 5 years. So our payments were like $2,300 a month. So that on top of the mortgage, on top of everything else, it was just like trying—

So a lot.

Did you run math? Wow, it got extremely silent in here.

I don't like the M word.

I mean, what, I mean, I mean, at what point?

Did you, did you run like $2,300 plus the price of the mortgage. Oh my gosh. Plus this.

Yeah, we put it in our budget.

Our budget. Yes. And I knew I have to bring in this much just to make ends meet. Like my business has to bring in this much per month, which is $4,000 a month to help us just meet our bare minimum costs.

But we're not saving. We're not—

We're not saving.

There's no savings.

There's no emergency fund.

So was it feasible?

Yeah.

Like you could do it feasibly without working like 10 days a week?

Oh, for sure. My, like, I teach March through November because that's like the warmer, non-rainy kind of, you know, we have great weather here, so I'm fortunate to do that.

That's what you did. You were working. You were also working, Taryn.

Yep.

With that $75K pay cut, but still making a very high salary. And how were things going at that point?

Okay. But we still, we still knew we had debt. Like, I just hate that, the weight of, I mean, who likes it honestly? But like, I just know that I feel like we weren't contributing to to chipping away at any of the debt. Like, we hate having to ask for money. Like, that's like the very last thing we want to do. Like, I want to, I want to get them paid off as soon as possible. I don't want that. I don't want to be indebted in that way. So I think it's always frustrating. And we can't, we haven't been able to like travel. Like, we love to travel. We love to go out and have nice meals. And like, we haven't been able to do any of that.

Inside your household, when you would talk about money at that point, what were the conversations like?

She was more stressed and I was like, listen, everyone has debt.

So—

Is that true?

I grew up thinking it was true.

Okay.

I did not.

I think more people have debt than you really realize and no one talks about it. So I think it's like a very shameful thing and I'm just very open. So I'm like, this is just what it is, you know? And I think her, she was like, but I wanna pay it off. Like I'm stressed and I don't. And I'm like, I get that, but we just built a pool. Like, that's not going to get paid off in like a year. And we have other loans that we have to pay off first. So it was like stress, and then it was like it would dissipate and the conversation would end.

How many kids and how old are they?

5 kids. 12-year-old, almost 6-year-old, 4-year-old, and then twin 2-year-olds.

Wow. Cool.

Okay.

That's amazing. Were they experiencing any aspects of what you were going through with the financial stress? Did they pick up on it?

No.

Probably not. I don't think so.

Maybe our oldest occasionally, just because maybe we weren't going out as much. But it's not something like she's ever said or expressed.

How long have you two been together?

We met in high school, but we weren't, like, together right away. So we've known each other for—

Almost 30 years.

Since 1996.

Did you all grow up in the area?

No, military brats. So she— we went to high school together for 2 years, and then she moved her senior year. To California.

Okay.

And so then once I graduated college, I used her to have a place to live out here.

Yeah. Got it.

So she used me to get out here to be in entertainment.

Okay. Okay.

But married, married. Married 18 years.

Married. Married 18 years.

Okay.

Got it. Okay, cool. I read your application and there's so many things that stood out to me. One of them, I'd like to read it back to you. Melissa, you wrote in the application, we are in major debt over $300,000 worth. In the past, when we've gotten out of debt, it feels great, but then we slowly get back into it. Can you tell me about this cycle of debt that you get in and out of?

I don't even know how it happens. I think even when she was making the most and we were doing really well, it would— like, we would still have some credit card debt because, like, we would like to travel or we'd like to eat. Like go out to eat. I was a big shopper and it was very tied to like emotionally shopping. Like how some people emotionally eat, I emotionally shop. So if I'm stressed out, I want to go and just spend more.

How many years have you been in and out of debt?

How old am I? 46. So since I was 18.

All right.

I got my first credit card.

Yeah.

Okay.

I feel like ever since we've been together, it's, there's been some credit card.

She never came in with debt.

I never came in with debt. So it's always kind of been this like lingering thing that I just feel like won't go away. It stresses me out. I just want it to stop. I want it to go away. I would love to not have, I would love to be putting those monthly credit card payments into our kids or investments or, you know, traveling, going out. And so it's just stressful because I just feel like we haven't, we come close so many times, I feel like, and then I don't know, it just doesn't, it doesn't happen for whatever reason.

And Melissa, how do you feel about that? Cycle of debt?

I hate it. Like, I want to stop it, which is, I think, part of the reason why I signed up for this, because I'm like, I want to like stop the cycle. It's like insanity.

What role do each of you play in the debt cycle? Melissa?

I mean, I think I do like— I probably control it. I contribute to it. I'm the shopper, and I make most of the decisions for the family and like what's spent. So in that regard. Like, I'm the one in charge of it.

Okay.

And then she just kind of goes along.

So I contribute by not contributing.

Yeah.

Um, I guess I don't say no. I don't flag. I think I just— Yes.

You don't say no? Why not? If you're stressed out about money?

Yeah, good question.

Um, I trust her decisions when it comes to like how much food we need for groceries and, um, what supplies and things our kids need, the activities. I think I've always just been the one who's like, I just make money and then I'm very easygoing. It's only when we have like big purchases that I like put my foot down.

Like— It sounds very familiar when I talk to straight couples, like word for word identical. I just earn money. That's what men say. I just focus on earning more money. She's really good at managing the household. That's very common. And putting my foot down. That's very common for men to say. But most of the time, like, I trust her.

Yeah.

Have you heard that before? Have you ever heard men talk like that?

Yeah, I think I heard it on your podcast. Uncanny, right?

It's like half the episodes are saying the exact same words. I'm just struck by this. I appreciate it. I wanna understand more about what's going on here. I want to take a look at the numbers. Taryn, can you read off the words in bold and the number next to it for this entire box, please?

Assets, $1.4 million and some change. Investments, $495,000 and some change. Savings, $50,000. Debt, oof, $1.2 mil and some change.

Total net worth?

Total net worth, $761,000. Okay.

Ouch. Thank you. What do you think about those numbers?

I don't like those numbers at all. Mm-hmm.

What do you feel when you read them out?

Uh, anxiety.

Mm-hmm.

And stress for my kids. And like, if we were to get hit by a bus on the way home and what that looks like for them.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Melissa, what about you?

Like, I've seen them so many times, I just like glaze over.

Ah, so they don't really connect with you. Mm-mm. Do you feel anything?

Mm-mm.

Okay. And if I were to ask you, what do these numbers mean to you? What would you say?

Like, I don't want to deal with any of it.

Mm-hmm.

It's just like an annoyance that's just like there.

What I'm seeing is the person, quote, in charge of the money in the household doesn't really want to deal with it.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you're kind of annoyed by it. It's just like a nuisance to you.

Yeah.

But you are the one who the two of you have decided consciously or unconsciously that you, Melissa, are in charge of the money, right? Like, what if it was like childcare, for example? Ah, these little kids are kind of annoying and it's kind of like a nuisance to me, but anyway, I'm in charge of the childcare. Like, we all know it's absurd, but with money it's actually surprisingly common.

You make it sound so simple when you say it that way.

It's just, it's hard to be good at something if you—

You don't care.

If you don't care. And sometimes the answer is that person maybe shouldn't be in charge of it. Like, for example, let's say somebody doesn't care about cleaning the mirror in the bathroom. Okay, maybe they just don't need to be in charge of that and the other person can, or you can hire somebody, fine. But certain things like childcare, like you actually just need to find a way to care. That's it. Or money, both partners just need to find a way to care and to get good.

Both?

Both. Because this isn't working. I mean, it's not.

Look, can I just give it to her because she cares?

Well, okay, that's an interesting question. You could. Why haven't you?

Because she turns it around on me and she's like, no, I don't. You care so much.

Like, no, because you don't trust me with it.

I would trust you with it. I think now that we have these numbers, it's something she could work with because she actually knows what they are now. Like, they're in a place that's very concrete. Before, it was just kind of like very vague. But now she can see like, this is specifically like our debt.

To be candid, these are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 numbers. They take like 10 minutes to gather. So considering that you've been in and out of debt for 25 years, I don't think gathering 5 numbers is the problem.

I know.

It's not.

Part of what we're going to do today is we're going to, like, pull on some threads and try to get really honest. All right. There's something else going on here. Let's continue with the CSP. Let's talk, Melissa, about the combined gross monthly income. What's that number?

$11,900.

Okay. So you're making— let's just call it $12K. It's $144K a year. Why are there no taxes taken out?

With her job and my business expenses, the way our taxes would come out is we'd end up getting money back. Got it.

We're at $12,000 a month roughly from Melissa, and then $900 a month. Is that from you, Taryn?

Yeah, that's for unemployment. So that's just where I'm at currently.

Got it. And this is quite a striking difference because it used to be like $20,000 a month.

Yeah.

Let's go on to the fixed cost number.

Oh.

What is this number, please?

That number is terrible. I already know what it's supposed to be.

A lot of explanation before hearing the number. Read the number.

179%.

All right. 179%. What does that tell you?

We're bleeding money.

Yeah.

Just looking at this number, can you cut expenses to solve the problem?

No, no, no.

This is not about we spent too much at brunch.

Right.

Or we bought too many toys. It is not that. It is a structural problem that requires radical change. Right there, that tells you. What this tells me is when I see a couple with this, which I believe may be the highest fixed cost number I've ever seen.

Oh no. That's terrible.

There is a structural change that probably happened because people don't typically just overspend into 179%. That would be the job loss. It tells me that the person or couple that has this is really stressed out about money. Those 3 things. Check, check, check. All right, let's continue. Oh, and one last thing. This— it is just a matter of time until you run out of money. Like, the clock is ticking. Do you know how long until you're out of money?

Well, this is the hard part. I mean, I'd say 3 months max.

Agreed.

We already have in my mind because—

Really?

Well, we don't— we—

We'll get some credit cards.

There's money that we don't— that we owe. Yeah, we're getting by because we're fortunate again to have— be able to get a loan from some family. We have the credit cards, my severance, but it's running out. So I guess technically without— we have some money in our account, but I feel like it's not ours because we owe it to other people. We owe it to credit cards.

3 months until you run out of money with 5 kids is no joke. What has changed, if anything, in your household as the clock has gotten closer to midnight?

Well, we just listed our house.

Oh.

Last week.

Last week.

Okay.

Yeah, because I was like, we got to get out of this. Like, we can't stay here.

To your earlier question, like, when did we start to feel it? When we started building the pool, even when I had a job and we were getting by, we still were feeling it because we still weren't— we didn't have that extra money for savings, that extra money to go out, all that. It just felt like we were in over our heads with that house.

But this isn't we don't have money for savings. This is we are literally running out of money.

So this was the push we needed. I think me losing my job is like, okay, that like no-brainer now. Like we were talking about it. Now it's like, we have to, we have to do it. Like, we obviously can't afford this house.

Okay.

All right. Let's continue going on. Uh, investments are at zero, savings are at zero, and then I've never seen this number before. Negative 79% is what's left over, or negative $9,300 a month. You broke my CSP. So what do you think about the CSP looking at it?

No, it's crazy. Like, we're at a point where, like, we talk about selling our house, but also because she doesn't have a job yet, we're like, we're gonna have to rent. But what are we even looking at in terms of a budget?

What's the answer to that question?

In my head, like, I know the fixed cost should be at 60%, housing should be like 20 to 30%, like $4,000, $4,500 a month. Like, that's what I'm finding. Like a 3-bedroom.

And do you think that you could afford that?

I think in my optimistic mind, yes. I think like she's going to get a job and it's going to be okay. That's where my head goes.

It's interesting, like when I ask people an affordability question, they never use numbers in their answer. Never. Can you afford a $3,000 mattress? Well, back is the most important part of your body. I go, what the fuck does that have to do with the A word, affordability? When I ask an affordability question, you should pull out a calculator. But we answer with almost anything other than math. Affordability is purely about math. Can you afford it?

Okay, the numbers in my head—

I'm not talking about your head. We have the numbers. Look at them. $11,900. And you're going to pay taxes on that, by the way. So your net is, let's just say $9,000 to be generous. Watch this. What's your fixed cost number just jump up to?

Like 100.

236%.

Yeah.

My CSP is about to explode right now. It never saw a number with a 2 in front of it. Now I'll ask you again, can you afford a $4,000 a month apartment?

No. No.

There's no way. We could run the math and show you, but Spending 45 or so percent of your money on housing with a family when inevitably things will come up is impossible. You can't do it. Taryn, I want to check in with you. When you look at the CSP, what do you make of it?

Major changes need to happen for us. You know, which again, I think we tried to start with that on our own.

Okay.

But we need someone like you to help us. But making the decision to like sell the house obviously needs to happen.

Yep.

Finding a job needs to happen. We're also open to relocating outside of LA.

Oh, really?

Mm-hmm. Where would you go? I have family back East. I'm looking at jobs in North Carolina, Atlanta.

Really?

We're even looking in Nevada. Really? Vegas? I mean, I, I've, big changes need to happen.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

This is good.

And to your question, like looking at that sheet and, and how do I feel? You know, I was very fortunate for the 11 years that I had at Netflix, a company that treated me so well, amazing benefits, amazing pay. Sadly, I don't know that I'll necessarily land the same kind of a thing. I think, you know, the industry is not great right now. There's tons of layoffs happening. I mean, 1,000 people were just laid off at Disney. Meta just did some layoffs. I mean, it's just all over.

Let me stop you right there because I know it's tempting to go, "Boohoo." The people who used to make tons of money aren't making quite as much money anymore. Join the club. And so I get the temptation to look at people who used to have a ton of money, they don't have it anymore, and go, "You suck." So what? We've been here the whole time. But I want you to know that at some point in your career, you or your partner will probably lose your job. How are you gonna react when that happens? What if that entire industry is decimated and you can never make the amount of money you used to make? What if you'd built a plan for your life based on the amount you were making? Most people do. And what would you do if you were faced with the question of never earning that much money again? I think this is a crystal ball into what a lot of people are gonna face in the next 24 to 36 months. We've heard about AI replacing jobs. It's real. People are losing their jobs because of it. And the question—

Ramit Sethi.

That I want people to answer is, what do I do with the rest of my life if the amount of money I'm making now is the most I will ever make? You have to remember, most people don't plan their lives at all, much less plan for their lives to go down in income. But this is a reality for a lot of people, including today's guests. What is something big and scary that you have been putting off for months. For a lot of people, especially those who have started a family recently, it's getting a will. It's getting an estate plan set up. And instead of trying to figure it all out on your own, you can work with Trust and Will to get your estate planning handled right away. Trust and Will offers affordable attorney-designed estate plans online that you can create in as little as 30 minutes. Everything is state-specific. It's tailored to your needs. Regardless of what stage of life you're in. And we actually had one of my coworkers create a will using Trust and Will. Here's what she said. Getting started was incredibly easy. In less than an hour, I had a will, power of attorney, last will and testament, and HIPAA authorizations, all of which I downloaded. And if I wanted, I could have them checked by another attorney. Their platform makes it easy to keep these things organized and updated so your loved ones don't have to manage tons of paperwork. Down the line. Now you can use an attorney for your estate plan, but that's not an option for everyone. If you know that you have loved ones that you need to protect, Trust and Will is worth considering. Go to trustandwill.com/ramitsethi to get 20% off. That's trustandwill.com/ramitsethi to get 20% off.

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Ramit Sethi. The first person I ever hired in my business was a personal assistant, and I was young. At that time, my friends were like, "Why? Are you trying to show off?" No, I really value convenience and I am willing to pay to make my life more convenient, like paying an assistant to make sure that I do not have to book my own appointments. I hate doing it, so my assistant helps with it. Now, if you value convenience, there's another option, Zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. Whether you're looking for primary care, dentistry, eye care, or any of the other 200+ specialties offered on Zocdoc, you can easily search by specialty or even symptom and book those in-network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. You can choose in-person or a video visit. You can even see verified patient reviews before booking. When you're ready, you can see their real-time availability and click to book instantly. No more phone tag. If I needed a new doctor, this is the first place I would look. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/Ramit Sethi to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Zocdoc.com/Ramit. Zocdoc.com/Ramit. Thanks, Zocdoc, for sponsoring this message. When there's layoffs in the industry, what happens to you and to the people that were working there?

For me personally, like I've told Melissa, like I'm, I'm open to not working in the industry anymore. Um, I have an amazing broad set of skills that I've gained and during my time at Netflix that could be applicable anywhere else. And so I'm expanding my search to jobs outside of entertainment.

Do you think you can make the same amount you made there?

Honestly, I, I'm doubtful of that. I'm not saying it's impossible. I do think in general there's a lot of right-sizing that's happening in companies like Netflix. I know that I was being paid very well. I was there for a long time, but I know people coming in now are not making that same amount. And even in the jobs I'm looking at that are very similar, just don't pay anywhere near what I was making.

What would be an example? Like if you were making $275,000, and you're looking at comparable jobs, what are they paying?

I'm lucky if they're paying like $200,000. I mean, I've had to expand my search now to even look below that, 'cause I just, I'm not seeing the same. There are some tech companies, I think a lot of AI-forward companies and stuff that are paying on the higher side above $200,000. And so I'd be very fortunate to maybe land something there. But again, we're still living in LA and it's, still not making what I was making before. Obviously, like, with big changes and renting instead of owning and all those things, you know, hopeful I can make an amount that would allow us to potentially stay here. But she's never been married to staying in LA. She— we've always only stayed because of my work.

Okay. I'm glad that you put the house on the market. That's a big change.

Yeah.

And I think that that needed to happen. So I'm really happy to hear you're willing to make some big, bold changes.

100%.

That's what it's gonna take.

Yeah.

Okay. What changes have you made in your spending after losing like more than half of your income?

I immediately called the internet company like, what's the lowest we can go? Got a lower Netflix subscription. You know, we— but it just feels like that's just like pennies. I mean, it's something, right?

I mean, we were trying to get like a forbearance, like a temporary forbearance on the mortgage, but like, she went through all these hoops and they were like, it was like a whole thing. We haven't been able to get it pushed through yet. So we've just been like paying it with the severance. We've been more like really more conscientious about grocery shopping and like what we're spending to try to bring that number down. We asked the family like, can we stop paying that monthly amount?

Oh yeah, that actually, that was a big one.

That was a big one. I mean, 'cause like we think like when we sell the house, like we'll pay them off. That's the goal. Like it'll just be done.

That's the goal.

Yeah. Let's talk about what levers do you have to stop the bleeding? Not the trickle, but the bleeding.

Selling the house.

I feel like that's it. That's the big one.

That's it? Me getting a job.

Her getting a job.

Yep. And where you live?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But the other thing with that is like, I built my business now for 4 years, like really built it up to a place where I'm making 6 figures. And it's like, what's the cost? Of moving for a job that she could be making the same amount that I'm already making here.

Mm-hmm. Have y'all discussed this or decided on what to do?

It's a daily conversation. It's like, where are you applying? What does it look like? Does it make sense to move if you get that for that amount based on what I have here? I'm willing to do it if it makes sense.

I am at least talking to one company. It would be likely relocation, but to New York. And so it's like, I don't even, I mean, that feels more expensive. That's insane. And so, and then for her business, like, does that make sense? Like, I don't, you know, there's a possibility that there could be potential for me to stay in LA with the role if I even get it. That's my pessimistically optimistic.

So how do you think about this? Like if what you're doing right now, you get the house on the market, you're applying for jobs. What if this goes on for, 2 months, 3 months, 4 months, what happens?

I mean, I've told her she should continue to work with the mortgage company to try a process like the forbearance. So we at least have that set up. If like after May we still have the house and the mortgage is still there, we should still go through with it.

I guess worst case would be what, we would foreclose on the house and then move in with family for temporary, I don't know.

Yeah.

I mean—

But I mean, I'll do this, I'll do this, I'll do that. Like, I'll do whatever I need to, to like keep it going and keep us under the house while we need to.

She definitely doesn't like— she definitely doesn't like talking about it. Like, she's like, nope, I don't want to put that out there. That's not an option. That's not happening. We're not doing that.

No, like in my head, it's very much going to be like sold under 60 days. Like, that's just what's happening.

Mm.

I like optimism. I like it. About certain things, I'm optimistic. I don't like delusion. And the stakes are too high to not have a plan B because you really could be in a bad situation. Let's just play it out for a second. I don't, I don't believe in putting bad energy out. I believe in making a plan. Let's say the house doesn't sell for at least 3 months. Let's say that Taryn, you're not able to find a job. What happens?

Then I'm working more. I'm taking on private clients I normally wouldn't. Lowering my rate to take on more students to teach.

Still can't cover it.

Living with family.

Yeah, but then we still have the house.

I'm trying to get you to really—

I know, because then I'm thinking like, well, God, by then I'd hope we'd sell it. The worst-case scenario, I think in my head, if we lowered it, we'd pay off the house and the pool loan. We would have like nothing left. If that's like, if we're talking like bare minimum.

Okay.

And then what do you do? Where are you in that situation?

I think then we would move.

If we hit worst case scenario, I mean, we probably would maybe move to like South Carolina or something. Yeah, we'd live in the area of your parents' family. Honestly, because it's way cheaper to live there.

Okay, you have family there?

Yeah.

Would they let you move in?

My mom said you guys could move in. She's like, we'll move out, but you can move in.

Wait, that's amazing.

Yeah. Oh, 100%.

Yeah. Did you seriously consider that?

No, that's literally, like, we would literally do that if we had to.

Okay, so she hasn't said this out loud to me, 'cause in her mind she's like, I'm never living in South Carolina. I am not actually.

Not by choice. Not because, that's not where I want to live. I love my family dearly. We're super close. Like it's not them.

No, we don't want to.

It's South Carolina. I'm just not, you've not seen the humidity on my hair. I cannot live there. But I, yeah, worst case if we absolutely had to, of course, move in with my parents. But you're, but you're also so positive. I feel like she's, I'm not allowed to like say those things.

No, we can have a backup plan for sure. Like that's, I think I don't go to like the worst case scenario.

I always go to the worst case scenario. She does not. She's like, it's very, it's not even gonna happen. I don't even wanna put that out there. She says that to me all the time. Don't even like— Yeah. Don't put that energy out there.

I don't want that energy out there.

Don't put that energy out there. But in my head, like, that's what keeps me up at night.

Energy is valid for sure, but we always have to make a plan. What I want to understand here, it's not just about the job loss because that obviously is a huge driver of what's going on here. But you all told me you've been in debt for 20 years.

Yeah.

It is not about this job. And so the real question The question that should consume you is, how did we get here? And what's going to stop us from getting right back in here? I mean, you told me that in your application.

Yeah.

We've been in debt before, and we— it feels good when we pay it off, and then we end right back up in it.

Yeah.

And I'm not hearing much of that. The whole fact, Melissa, that you mentioned, I don't want to talk about that potential negative stuff, that puts bad energy, that's actually one of the reasons that you've ended up in debt. So the simple stuff to do here is like, yeah, sell the house, pay off the debt. That'll be nice. But y'all will end up right back in this in 2.5 years if you don't actually look at what's truly going on here at the root cause level. Which level do you want to go to? We can stay at the sell the house level or we can go to the—

I want to stop the cycle.

Okay.

How do we do that?

Great. We can work with that. Tell me about the debt. What is the debt made up of?

It's the fact that we couldn't afford the house that we're in and everything else goes on the credit card. It's the gas, groceries, every other bill goes on the credit card.

Yes, I agree. Everything flows over there and it's almost like the bucket of money for your housing is too small. And so that's overflowing and it's overflowing into the next bucket, which is typically bills. And that's overflowing now and it's crowding out any room for savings, investing, even guilt-free spending. But the thing is, you're still spending it, like, right? Going out to eat when you have $50,000 of credit card debt. Not in my world.

Yeah.

No way. Have you ever considered that, Melissa? Just saying, we're not doing that.

Yeah.

Yes. I won't speak for you.

Yes. Yes. And it's because she doesn't want to cook. So when I get tired of doing all the cooking, I'm like, can we just, like, order something, make it easy? So it's one of those things where it's like taking off something from my plate to, like, just have, like, a peaceful night.

Wow.

Yeah.

Was that supposed to work on me?

No, but I think— No, no, no.

I understand. But, like, a family that's in $50,000 of credit card debt, just a simple answer. They just don't eat out. Done. I don't know. I'm just thinking about like how I grew up and it's just not even a question. We just don't do it. What do you think about that?

Well, I agree with that. I'm— because I think me growing up, my parents terrified me of credit cards. They're like, you're spending money you don't have. You only have a credit card for emergencies. Like your car breaks down and you have $500, you need to fix it, whatever. And then, you know, when I got together with Melissa, it was just very different. You know, she had some debt and it was just like, you know, she's a very hard worker and it's like she wants to enjoy life. You only live once and you want the things you want, you know. And like I said, she runs the house. I need to step up more, I know that. It's a lot, there's a lot on her shoulders. Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, it's like she does some of these little things to just, It feels good, and it's, she works hard, she deserves it too. But we're now in a place where we have kids, it's different, it's exhausting having 5 kids. We love 'em to death, but I can't stand cooking. It's like the bane of my existence, and like, I'm with the kids all day now, 'cause I'm not working. A lot of schlepping back and forth, school things, and this and that, and then, you know, the last thing I wanna do is cook a meal, and the last thing she wants to do from working all day is cook a meal, and we both give in. We know we shouldn't, but we did, 'cause it was like, we were exhausted, and it was easy, and— Yeah. But that adds up, and we know it's wrong.

Yeah. Taryn, what do you remember about your family saying around money when you were growing up?

It's weird. I don't feel like we talked about it a lot. We rarely went out to eat, but it wasn't 'cause like we couldn't afford it. It was just like that was a special treat. But like when we went out, it was like for a birthday or whatnot. So it always was exciting to go out to eat. It's partly why I love going out to eat now, 'cause we just didn't go out a lot as a kid. So nothing ever negative, or like, I don't remember them fighting about money. We didn't really talk about it. We didn't live lavishly, but we lived a good life. We took trips, we got great gifts. They taught me hard work ethic. My parents work very hard. They earned their money and, you know, they spend it on experiences and family things and fun.

Did they teach you anything about money growing up?

I was fortunate they paid for my school. But they put it in my name and then paid off the loans right away so that I would be set off for success with good credit score and stuff like that. And so they talked about that. I will clarify, my parents were not all about us buying this house. They definitely said like, I don't know if you should. What did you say? I was very hung up on like, I feel like we wanted to take this moment to invest in Melissa's career and we need a pool to do it. We tried to find a place with a pool and we couldn't. And we felt really confident that if we had a pool, we could really build her business, which we have. She's doing a kick-ass job with her business, has built a great clientele in our area. And so that we got from it, obviously that's not gonna pay the bills right now. And in the beginning, I didn't know all these extra costs. We lived in the city for years. Like, the last thing I was thinking about is that it's gonna be a couple grand to like shave the hedges so often and to clear the hill and, you know, termites and, you know, the AC, like things like that that we didn't really— we don't have to deal with that stuff in the city. So yeah, so I was like, you know, I hear you respectfully, but like, I think this is our best option.

How much will you make when you sell the house? Ballpark.

I think if we sell it for the amount that we're hoping to, that it could go for, like walking away, no, I think it was like $250,000.

$250,000?

Yeah.

That's after all fees and everything?

Uh-huh.

Okay. That's a lot. And does your realtor or the person you're using to sell the house, what do they think you're going to get?

The strategy of this is to come in at a price that people aren't going to be like, ugh, but they'll come in and they'll look at it and they'll be sold on the place and get over asking is the goal.

Got it. Taryn, are your parents still alive? Are they still together?

Yes.

They're still together, still alive.

Got it.

South Carolina.

And how are they doing financially? Great. Good. Melissa, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

Both my parents, I just remember feeling their stress because I remember hearing about their credit card debt and they were both big spenders. And I remember when they divorced, like feeling a weight for them because I knew they weren't gonna be able to sell this house that they had and like pay off their debt.

Oh.

I know. This sound familiar?

That does sound familiar.

Fast forward, uh, 30 or 40 years? Yeah. Okay.

We had a very good, like, upbringing. Like, we didn't go out to eat a lot 'cause that was always special if we did. But we didn't lack for anything. Also, when you're in the military, you have a lot of resources that are free. So it's not like you're paying a lot. So it's a different lifestyle. I also came out of it with grandparents who are entrepreneurs and built this multimillion-dollar business. I think my parents always had like support if they needed it.

Oh.

And so in my mind, I feel like we would have support if we needed it.

Are your parents—

My parents are divorced.

And how are they doing financially?

They're good.

Uh-huh.

But I feel like that's always an option.

Where does this idea you have that they will always be there to help you, like, what's behind that?

Because my dad has said, like, if you need— like, I'm here if you really need something.

Do you need help right now?

No, because I don't want to— like, I'm like, I feel like that's like the worst-case scenario, like, and I don't want it because I think in my mind if I always think that, then it's always there, and then I'm not going to really change my habits.

You're not religious, right?

I am.

Yeah, you are.

We're Catholic.

Yeah.

Ah, and you grew up religious?

We both grew up Catholic. And God provides.

Yes. That is a very common phrase. How do you think that your Catholicism, especially growing up, changes your interpretation of money today?

I don't even know. I mean, honestly, I haven't even thought about it.

Let's think about it. God provides, so finish the end of that sentence.

Like something always come along to help.

Okay. What else?

I'm a little bit different when it comes to— I'm, again, I'm more of the pessimistic, like,— you know, like, her family's very much like, "Just gotta pray on it. Gotta do this." Yeah, the praying. But I don't think that's gonna—

"Let's pray on it." Pray on it. So finish the end of the sentence. "Let's pray on it so that when—" Everything works out. Got it. Probably, I'm willing to bet you grew up with 10,000 examples like that. "It will be okay. God will provide. Let's pray on it." And that's pervasive, right? It shapes your view of the way the world is. And it's interesting that you also grew up Catholic. You're like, God provides, but I don't believe it.

Well, you gotta still earn it. Like, I don't, I don't think God's just gonna like, boop. Like, to me, I would like, we were raised Catholic, but we're not like crazy, like Bible thumpers and stuff. Like, there's just a lot of tradition and stuff that we love about it. But, um, my parents, it was very much more like, you work hard, you know? And it's like, like, even in this position now, my mom's sending me listings to like work in the school district. She's like, Nobody ever thinks about that. You don't have to just be a teacher. There's other jobs in the school district. There's great benefits, and there's like hundreds on the site. Take a look.

I didn't really predict that one, that they are both religious. I was starting to get curious. This is why I asked Melissa, "You're not religious, are you?" Because there was certain elements that were speaking to me. You know, this idea of like, "Ah, good things will come." And the minute she said, "Oh yeah, I'm religious," I was like, "Really?" But what surprised me even more was Taryn. Growing up religious. And to me, this actually is just a perfect example that people grow up with different belief systems. Sometimes they grow up poor, sometimes they grow up wealthy, and often they will go one direction or another. They will be hyper-frugal or they'll spend everything they make. But the key insight is you can never predict it. So in this case, look at that. The two of them grew up religious. One of them goes, "God will provide." The other one goes, "Uh, I don't really believe that." "I'm just worried about money." But interestingly, when it comes down to their actual money behavior, both of them are pretty avoidant. I built my company knowing that I wanted to work remotely and I wanted my entire team to be able to do the same. We work at home, we work from coffee shops. Sometimes we take calls while doing walks and we all love the flexibility, but sometimes it makes it hard to sit down and type long emails. Which is why we love this episode's sponsor, WhisperFlow. WhisperFlow turns the way you naturally talk into clean, ready-to-send text in any app on any device. I'm talking about Slack, Gmail, Notion, iMessage, even ChatGPT and Claude on Mac, Windows, and Android. With WhisperFlow, you just hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears way faster than typing it. Plus, it's smart, it's adaptive, so you don't send a block of huge incoherent text. And unlike other dictation apps, it corrects mistakes, it gets names right the first time, and it can format bullet points and lists on the fly. I find that particularly useful. So if you send tons of emails and messages every day, if you want to be able to capture your own ideas just by talking, WhisperFlow is a no-brainer. Get 1 month of WhisperFlow Pro for free at whisperflow.ai/ramit. That's whisperflow.ai/ramit. W-I-S-P-E-R-F-L-O-W dot A-I slash Ramit, or click the link in the description. You ever hear this phrase that when men get married, they live longer? I thought that was a little insulting, and then it happened to me. I started flossing more. I started doing freaking mobility work. And my wife taught me how to go to sleep on time instead of scrolling Reddit for 5 hours of pointless activity. And I gotta tell you, it was a lot easier to stick with it because I sleep incredibly well thanks to the Leesa mattress that we purchased for our apartment. Leesa has a lineup of beautifully crafted, high-quality mattresses. Whether you sleep on your side, your back, somewhere in between, they've got a mattress that's built for you. And from the first night, you're going to feel the difference. They use premium materials in every mattress, and they are designed for full body support. Every Leesa mattress is assembled in the US, and it comes with free shipping, easy returns, and a sleep trial of 120 nights. Plus, they have a helpful sleep quiz to figure out which mattress is the best fit for you in under 2 minutes. Go to leesa.com for 25% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off with promo code Ramit. That's exclusive for my listeners. That's leesa.com, promo code Ramit for 25% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. Support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. leesa.com, promo code Ramit. How do the two of you reconcile this different way of looking at the world?

She's also a hard worker though. So I'm not saying she's not. Just to clarify.

Well, I also think you leave out the part, like, her growing up with her family, they didn't really teach her about money. Like, they said what you shouldn't, shouldn't do. But like, I had a grandma who bought stock for me and she said, any amount you give me, I'll match. And so I grew up knowing a little bit about investing. And so I think like in our relationship, it's fallen to me to like, think about that kind of stuff and like invest because she's always like, you know it better. Like, you know it.

Well, they taught me about like savings and stuff. But I think when it comes, when we talk about investments specifically and stock and I just don't feel, to me that feels like a foreign language. Like I want to invest and do the things and I just don't even know where to start to learn that.

Hold on. You don't know where to start learning about investing?

Which is why we're here.

Can we get in tight on these? Look at these two books. If only there were books that were available for free at at every public library in America.

She doesn't read.

What is that though? Because you're obviously successful enough to have had a $300,000 a year job. So I don't believe that you just don't get investing.

I, I don't put the effort there. I put so much into the job that I have that when I come home, I like shut down in that way and I'm not as on top of it, which sucks for her 'cause then she's the one who has to be super on top of it at home.

Why haven't you tried to change that?

Probably 'cause I know she'll do it. Yes. And yeah, I think I've leaned heavily on her for that.

People often behave in really peculiar ways and you kind of look at it, you go like, rationally, that doesn't make sense. Logically, it doesn't make sense. And you keep digging and then you discover often, not always, but often they're subsidized in some way. There is somebody else there taking care of things. And it could be a wife. It could be parents who send money. There's something going on that allows people to often act in peculiar ways. Just to put a really fine point on it, not to be dark about this, but if you got hit by a bus, you would change very quickly.

Yeah.

Can we agree?

I think about that all the time.

Mm-hmm.

It stresses me out so hard.

Melissa, what happened as you got older, as you became a teenager with money in your family? Anything change then?

We had to put ourselves through college. So I was like, let me get through college. Let me get through it fast because I was working like 2 serving jobs to put myself through. And then I like got straight into the workforce.

Do your parents have any input on your finances or both of your finances?

No. I mean, we talk to them about it. Like, we'll go to them for advice and stuff. But no.

What'd they say?

I mean, what does my mom say?

Don't use credit card. Don't eat out. I mean, all the obvious things.

Yeah, all that stuff. But she was also someone who was like, you got to, you should buy a house.

Do you tell her now, like, the situation?

Yeah. Now I'm like, yeah, sexy bought a house.

What does she say?

She's like, well, I don't know. You know, it's still good. Like, there's still money in it. And I'm like, yeah, but we were already in over our heads.

It's quite amazing that all the people who were so kind of like loud, vociferous about you need to buy a house, then the minute it doesn't go right, they all kind of like vanish. They're like, "I don't know. I mean, I guess it depends." Like, what the fuck? I bought this house because you told me to.

Oh, because it was old. It's because it's an old house.

Yeah. But also because you did not run the numbers as well.

Yes.

Okay. How do each of you think that you are bringing the money messages you grew up with to this relationship? Taryn?

Work hard, play hard.

Okay, work hard, yeah. What else?

And financially specific? Yeah.

Did your mom pay attention to money?

Yeah, my mom.

She did?

Yeah, she like runs the house.

Think there's anything there that you're bringing here?

Maybe I leaned on their support. I knew things would get taken care of.

Did your dad pay attention to money?

I wouldn't say that he doesn't, but I think he, my mom handles like all the finances Is Melissa the equivalent of your mom when it comes to money? In how she thinks of money?

She's the one who manages it day to day.

Oh, she, yes. Like I would say my mom is the one who decides like what they spend on.

I see.

I mean, she talks to my dad about it, but yeah. Yeah.

And so what does that make you?

My dad.

And your dad's relationship with money was what?

Very easygoing. Like trust, it's the same.

It's the same thing.

It's the same thing. She literally like married her mom.

So many of us co-create what we grew up with and we don't realize it. Did you realize that?

No.

Till now?

Not till now. Not like that.

Just think about it.

Yes. More clearly now.

Yeah.

Some aspects, yes.

I think that there's probably more room for silence in your relationship. It's crazy I'm saying that. I don't think I've ever said that to a couple in my life. But I think that sometimes you diffuse the potency of what you are discovering by talking. You just made a massive realization, and your first tendency was what?

To talk about it. To explain it.

To explain it, to caveat it. Well, it's actually about this, but it's not about that, and da da da da. And now you all forget what just happened. The central point of what you just discovered is massive. I have co-created the relationship that my parents had in, the financial area. Holy shit. First of all, how'd that happen? Second of all, what are the implications? Because like, Melissa is not like my mom in this way, but in that way she is. And in fact, didn't we once joke about this a couple of years ago? And so if that makes her the mom, then my dad was easygoing, which I love that about him, and I'm easygoing, but has my easygoingness contributed to us being in $1.2 million of debt? You cannot do that while talking. You can only do that in silence if both of you give it the space. Something I would encourage you to practice and work on. Okay. Melissa, what messages about money from your childhood do you bring to this relationship?

Oh, that like, debt is okay.

Everybody has debt.

Everybody has debt. You'll get out of it somehow, like, by selling your house if you have to, which is crazy that that takes that to do that.

40 years later, same thing.

Yeah.

When they sold their house, they were able to pay off debt. Now you're in the situation, you sell off house, hopefully pay it off. What else? Who will provide?

God will provide.

God will provide. So since God will provide and you get these one-time episodic sources of income, like selling a house, there's no real need to manage money carefully day to day. In fact, I deserve to have a nice time and spend money. And what about the dynamic? The two of you? You're the one who—

Manages it all.

Manages the money.

Runs it all. Runs the household.

And your partner?

Well, I used to make money, but now I'm—

I know. Well, now— Now I'm the childcare. Now she's like the nanny. No, she's like, she's a stay-at-home mom.

But that's true. Both of you have oscillated between who makes more and not, which is normal. That's actually quite common. But in the dynamic, when the two of you talk about money and when you practice money, what is the role that each of you plays?

I'm the controller of it.

Yes. Good. That's a good word. You are the controller of it. Do you control money effectively in your family?

No. Agreed.

And Taryn, you are the—

Bystander, I would say.

You agree?

Yes.

I think that's true. I think those are actually very powerful words. The controller and the bystander. In a way, it's no surprise that you have gotten into debt. You have somebody who loves to spend money. You have admitted that. Controlling the money, but you don't really like looking at it. In fact, when I put those numbers up, you were visibly uncomfortable. You're like, I don't want to look at this.

I want it out of here.

So that's the controller. And then the bystander for a long time makes the money and then goes—

That's my job.

That's my job. I'm done. You take care of it. In fact, you're so good at this, even though you both admit that you're not that good at this. This is very classic. What do you make of this assessment?

That she needs to be the controller.

Maybe a different way to put it is, I, Melissa, am not functioning effectively as a controller today. We don't know what the solution is yet, but we certainly know this is not working. Would you agree?

Yeah.

Okay. What do you got, Taryn?

Um, I think it needs to be more of a team effort. I need to step it up more, be more vocal.

Why are you bystanding? Easier. Yeah, true.

What else? She runs the house. I feel like she has that authority to decide, like, how things should go. Like, I can give my opinion, but she may not like it. And then at the end of the day, it's like, well, no, this is what we're doing.

And— ah, she's the one who says this is what we're doing with certain things.

Yeah, I would say.

Who says it with money?

Probably more you. Again, it's only like big, big things.

I feel like if I'm, if I'm watching what's happening right now, like I'm putting on my infrared goggles. What I see is this ball of responsibility, like the leader of money. And I'm asking like, who leads with money? And each of you is kind of like, I don't want that shit. And like, I don't— you're like trying to toss it invisibly back and forth. Am I reading that correctly?

Yeah. The joke is people always think that I'm like the boss in the relationship when really when it comes down to like the big purchases in life, like she's the one who makes the final say. So all the day-to-day stuff is on me. And so I would be the one that does it all.

Do you know that she is not effectively controlling the money? Do you internalize that?

I do more now.

Before you didn't?

Mm, no.

I think you just hoped it was like working out and the roof was still over your head. And so it was like, it must be fine. Yeah, just— I'm making a lot of money. We must be doing fine.

Once I was laid off, though, feeling more like, yeah, no, this was— we made bad choices.

But still, but still not like, hey, we made bad choices. Let's like decompose what's going on. Because that would raise a lot of uncomfortable questions like, should Melissa be in charge or, quote, the controller? Do I need to step up? Do I need to recalibrate this relationship? That's all very uncomfortable. So let's just sell the house. Like, that'll get us some cash. We can, like, solve this problem for now, and then, like, we'll go— like, we'll figure things out later.

Mm-hmm. That's the step we took.

Yeah.

Yeah. 'Cause I think it was easier, 'cause again, like, I think for her mental state and emotional state at the time when she lost her job, I don't think she was in a place to have that conversation.

Yeah.

So I think we just, like, avoided it. Yeah. And she wasn't gonna take that on.

Keep in mind, I, I agree, it's tough to lose a job, especially in an environment like this where, like, a lot of people have lost their job in that industry. But you haven't had that conversation in 20 years. So it's not only about the job.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

It is comfortable. Mm-hmm. You were in a comfortable situation. But the fact of the matter is, when we are looking at the objective numbers, you are drowning. And my fear is that you will get right back into this scary situation.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I think in my head, I— if we don't buy a house again, we won't get into that situation.

But you will. I just showed you. If you rent for $4,000 a month, you will be in debt in less than a year. What's happening here is this idea of, like, it will work itself out. God will provide, which is a good phrase, but it is—

Not tangible.

It's not, it's showing up in peculiar ways. I'm not saying that belief is wrong. I'm saying, like, my mom has a sign that says, "Trust in God, but lock your car." Means make a plan. And so God may provide, but you need to create the outcome that you want. And hope for some help. What do you think?

Yeah, I agree.

100%. Cool. That means the two of you, you could sell the house. I think that's great. But that's like not gonna change anything until the two of you change it. Are you willing to do that?

Yeah.

Great. Do you see a therapist?

Not, not anymore.

We used to.

I would encourage you to see one because recalibrating relationships is one of the hardest things to do. It's really hard, but it can be done. 100%. I have confidence you could do it. You both are very conversant. You— I think you are starting to appreciate the severity of the situation, which is selling the house is not actually going to save us. It'll give us a stopgap. It'll buy us some time, but we're getting right back into it.

Yeah.

Whether we live here, there, rent, buy, doesn't matter. It's us. How do you feel about that?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I agree with that.

Uncomfortable. Good. That's so good. That's the first uncomfortable part. It's going to be many more. And actually, I love that. The best growth comes from these uncomfortable feelings. Like, think about someone learning a language. It's so scary the first time you go order coffee. But you can't, you can't actually get good unless you do it. The first time you go to a gym, the first time you hold your baby, all of these things, it's uncomfortable. But like, we cannot get truly good unless we do that and we go right into it. What does your rich life look like in the future?

Just like traveling the world with our kids. Mm-hmm. Like, in my mind, I wanted to save up for a trip in 2028 that we could go visit my friend in Paris, go back to Spain, go to maybe Italy or back to Portugal.

How long would you go for?

Like 3 weeks.

Okay, cool. What else is in your rich life?

Not being in debt.

Okay, being debt-free. Let's call it being debt-free.

Being debt-free.

Good, good. What else?

And just like continuing quality time with like Taryn and our kids.

Nice. Okay. Anything about like food? Anything about like purchases you want to make?

Yes, I would love to like be comfortable enough to, like, eat out once a week.

Okay. Once a week with the family or the two of you?

Either.

Great. Before we continue, I want to let you know the next part of this conversation touches on child loss and grief. If this is a difficult topic for you to listen to, you may want to skip ahead by about 3 minutes. Taryn, what about you?

Very similar. Number one, debt-free. I want that weight off my shoulders.

Okay.

Number one. Travel, travel is very important to both of us. It was a grieving mechanism for us when we lost one of our children. And so travel is very important to us and we haven't been able to do that. Take your time. And then just like, yeah, then beyond that, being able to just like, hey, let's go on a date night or go out to eat with the kids. And just not feel guilty about it, you know, like ordering the food and stuff. Don't want a big house, don't want a fancy car. Just want the debt gone. Yeah.

I like that. Why is talking about this making you emotional?

I think just obviously thinking about my daughter. I think a lot of our spending started after that too.

Mm-hmm. I didn't know that. I'm so sorry.

Thank you. You know, we were in that place where it was like life became very, like, precious, obviously, where putting stuff on a credit card didn't feel as, it's like, you know, it was our therapy, and it's part of what got us through that. And I think obviously that contributed to some of that, again, before the house and all the other things that probably, you know, and just saying this now, I think probably contributed towards it.

Yeah. Did you ever make that realization, like, before now? The connection between the loss of a child to spending? I don't know.

Maybe, like, kind of here and there, like, subconsciously. Yeah. I think it was just easy to be like, "Who knows if we'll be here tomorrow? Like, we need to enjoy our lives, you know?

You only live once." We definitely went through a period of that, I think.

Yeah. How long ago did you lose your daughter?

Almost 8 years ago. 8 years ago.

That's, um, that's probably the toughest thing anybody has to go through. I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Thank you. Why don't we take 5 minutes? Let's take a break, and we'll come back and pick it up.

Okay.

Okay. Didn't want to do my ugly cry face.

I didn't know that they had lost a child. It came up quite late in our conversation. Once they told me that, it actually started to make a lot more sense. I certainly cannot understand the grief of losing a child, but when Taryn explained that to me and teared up, it helped me to understand that there was so much more going on here than just eating out, than just spending a few dollars they couldn't afford. How would any of us react if we went through unimaginable grief? Losing a parent, losing a partner, losing a child. I don't think their loss explains everything that's going on here, but it certainly helps me get a little bit more color on who they are and what they've been through. I haven't been through the type of grief that a lot of people in my community have been. My parents are both still alive. I haven't lost a sibling. And— when people tell me what it felt like You start to grasp this part of humanity that you simply have not experienced yet, but you know quite hauntingly it is just a matter of time. This idea that things will never feel the same again. This idea that you simply wish you could go back and have one more day with the person that you love. And of course, when it comes to your finances, that— becomes the last thing on your mind. Health, death. When those things happen, they are all-consuming. So I appreciate both of them sharing this with me. I appreciate everyone who comes on this show, especially those who share some of the grief that they have experienced. Some of us have not experienced it yet, but we will. Some of you have. And I think for all of us, we can appreciate how difficult it must be or it has been, and it gives us a lot more compassion for every single person on this show. Welcome back. I was thinking about what you described as your rich life. So I want to read it back to you. You told me, Melissa, traveling with the whole family, being debt-free, and eating out, like, let's say once a week. Taren, you told me being debt-free, traveling, eating out once in a while, and you made a point Don't need a big house. Don't need a fancy car.

Can I add food delivery, meal planning for that, to that rich life?

How? Yeah, yeah, you can add. It's your rich life for sure. So food delivery, how often?

Like 3 times a week.

Okay. All right. What do you think is the path from here to there?

So for me, the first step is we're selling the house. We have to get out of the house.

Okay.

I have to get a job.

Okay.

Potentially work more. Potentially we, sit down and talk about, does it make more sense to stay in LA or not? Like, obviously we've been trying to stay in LA because of her clientele. Maybe it makes more sense that we move. Um, so I think that how we get there is obviously change, which we've talked about. Um, so aside from the obvious thing, sell the house, get jobs—

Hold on, these are important. I like where you're going. Sell the house, and then what? What do you do with the money?

We've talked about paying off debt.

Okay.

So paying off the money we owe for the pool loan and for the money we borrowed, the fence, the concrete, and all that. And the mortgage. And the mortgage, obviously.

So theoretically, you could walk away being debt-free.

Mm-hmm.

Depending on what you sell it for.

Correct.

Or you might have a little bit of debt left over, some amount.

Correct.

Okay. Let's say you have a little extra money from the house sale. What would you do with the money?

I think if I'm still unemployed, you know, we want to look to rent. We have to be able to show some sort of income, be able to say, hey, we have this, we can put it towards, you know, additional rent if we have to, because I don't have an income to actually get a place to live in.

Yeah. So you take that and maybe use that. Okay. And speaking of income sources, Melissa, what are you going to do since you won't have a pool in your backyard?

So I already talked to other families that'll let me teach out of their pools.

Great.

Yeah.

Actually extremely great. And if I can say, one of the things that I probably would've done before I installed a $200,000 pool, like I would've asked like, hey, is there any other way instead of us spending 200 grand? Because how much you charge people when they come over?

Like $2,000 per student.

For how long?

For 7 weeks.

Yeah. That takes a long time to recoup the profit on. Is there any other way? It might actually be cheaper for me to get a freaking Uber to somebody's pool every time than to install a $200,000 pool in my backyard. These are the kind of questions I want you to start thinking of. Okay, so take the money, any profit leftover, use it to live while you find a job.

Correct.

You're gonna be teaching at other people's pools, so you should be able to keep your clientele up. For the most part, right? I'm with you so far. What's next?

Childcare. So again, depending on if I have a full-time job, we obviously need childcare for when the hours she's working.

Yes.

If I don't have a job, I would be that childcare. So I think that, that's obviously the big if, like there's two paths, right? Like, do I have a job? What does that look like? If I get a part-time job, does what I'm making part-time equate to what we would pay for childcare? Maybe, maybe not. So those are the questions I think we need to dive into next.

If you did all of these things and maybe you get childcare or you stay home or you get a part-time job, what do you think, just intuitively, what happens with your finances?

That's where we're kind of like stuck because we look at it and we're like, whatever we make, whatever we have left over from the house would go towards paying rent somewhere.

Mm-hmm.

Unless we realistically were like, we're dropping everything, we're moving to like move in with your parents. Which then I'm not working because then I'm—

Stick with the LA thing.

Okay.

Don't get things confused. This is what happens.

Okay.

You, I need you to stay with one idea and play it out. So you stay in LA, you rent, you're renting for let's say $4,000 or $5,000 a month. Okay?

Mm-hmm.

Maybe you get a job, maybe not, childcare, et cetera, whatever. What's happening with your finances?

Well, this is what I would, I would like to do is figure out What should we be putting towards savings? How can we invest?

Do you even have enough every month to make savings? No.

No. No.

At $5,000 a month for rent, your business may stay the same. Maybe it goes down a little bit. We don't know what's going to happen with your job. Maybe it's great. Maybe not. Just intuitively, y'all are just setting yourself up to struggle again for the next 5 years, be right back into debt. Why are you not coming to that realization?

No, I think because in my mind, she's gonna get a job, and that's gonna help us have that money to make our fixed costs less.

If she gets a job—

Mm-hmm.

She said it probably won't be nearly as much as she was making.

Mm-hmm.

And you're now gonna have how many thousands of dollars a month in childcare? A lot.

Mm-hmm.

I think there's some of this kind of prosperity gospel thing happening right now. It's just like— let's just like kind of work hard and like it will be provided for us. But like we're now talking about, do you all want to be in the same position struggling with money for the next 40 years?

No.

And because the path you just told me does not lead you to travel. There's no traveling in that path where you can barely scrape together the money per month. Right now you don't even have a savings habit. But how are you gonna save when you have way less money?

I think I thought a portion of like the house would maybe go to investments.

Okay. I'm sure it could.

Or savings. But then it's like, how much is left over to help with rent?

Yes.

Because you have to live somewhere.

I mean, I think, well, we, when we were talking about numbers, we thought, well, our mortgage won't be $8,000 a month anymore. It would be hopefully $5,000. We wouldn't have the loans payments, that's another $2,300, whatever that is.

Like literally doing the numbers.

And we're like, okay, like that's—

We cut our monthly in half by selling our house.

Should we look at the CSP? Show me what you did.

Yeah.

Let's take a look.

So right now, you know, your fixed costs are like 236%.

Mm-hmm.

Your current mortgage is $7,899. Let's take that down. What do you say? Conservatively $5,000?

Yeah.

All right.

And your utilities, let's call it $250.

Okay.

Fair?

Mm-hmm. All right. Insurance, let's keep it.

Okay.

Car payment, let's keep that. Debt payments, let's put it at $1,000 just to be conservative.

Okay.

Okay. All right. Groceries, let's keep that. Clothes, let's keep that. Phone. Kids' activities. Subscriptions, we're going to keep. And miscellaneous, keep. You're at $15,000 per month. You're still at 176%. 3 times higher than you should be.

Mm.

What does that tell you?

And this— so this is based on if I don't have a job, right?

Insurance would go down because our HOA is really high because I run a business out of our home.

All right, let's drop it.

So that would get rid of probably like $1,000 at least.

Let's drop it. $839.

It might even be less than that.

You're at 165%. And go— let's go ahead and add another— Add your income. So how much do you think you would net?

$100,000.

$100,000. So let's say you would net, just for easy math, $7,000 a month, let's just say. Watch. Okay, you're down to 83%. Still way too high, but within striking distance. However, we need to add childcare.

Mm-hmm.

Childcare is how much for 5 kids? I got in trouble one time because I was surprised childcare for like one kid was, I don't know, $2,500. And everybody came after me on the internet, which Fair enough. My bad.

$2,500 a month?

Yeah.

Dang. How much is it for 5 kids?

It's $200 a day.

So $1,000 a week.

And it's 4 days a week. So it's—

$800 times—

16.

Yeah. 16 times $200.

$3,200 a month.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fuck, that's crazy for just that many hours.

Mm-hmm.

Let's put it down. $3,200. I'm gonna put it here. We're now at $18,000 or 103%. That's the ballgame. Unsustainable. Do you see how just 2 minutes worth of planning shows you that you would spend the next 10 years of your life anxious, guilty, stressed, and failing? That's all it took. Maybe we're right or wrong by 10% or even 25%, but that's it. It doesn't matter. The game is over and you lost. So what does this tell you?

I don't know. Some big change, but I don't know.

Yes.

What that is.

Good. At least that, that's good. I agree. It's got to be something bigger than you working harder and Taryn, you getting a job. Maybe even get paid an extra $3,000 wouldn't really change anything.

Right.

What's the next biggest change that you have to make?

I think it's where we live.

Tell me.

Because obviously LA is way expensive.

Yes.

As we're seeing. Yes. So I think that's probably the first big decision we need to discuss is where do we live?

No time like the present.

Yeah, but realistically, this is a thought that goes through my head. What is the cost of my clientele here and the business that I have versus moving, not having that money, not necessarily having her having a job wherever we move. And then we have no income coming in.

Here's the reality. You, you've done a great job with your business. You're making 6 figures. It's very impressive. Unfortunately, even with your business at the level it is, you can't survive here. It's just impossible. Once that income went away, and the fact that you have 5 children and all these other expenses, that decision was made. And so it— the hardest part of facing the numbers might be confronting the reality that the changes you have to make are bigger than you ever thought possible. Because to me, the worst thing is you go the next 5 years of your life stressed, going right back into debt, and you took that one opportunity you had of selling a house and just— squandered it because you didn't have these tough conversations. Play it out with me for a second. Let's say that you accept the business provided for you, but that chapter is over. What would you do?

I'm like, how much would rent be somewhere else? Is it that much cheaper?

Your mind is doing the thing where you're trying to unconsciously argue against moving. What your mind is trying to do is get you to just stay in comfort. I know LA, I know we can make it work. We've done it before. No, you can't. You have not made it work. You have over $1 million of debt. The voice in your head is not the voice that I want you to trust. And I hate to say that because I want you to trust yourself. I want you to trust the two of you, but you need to use numbers.

Yeah.

Go ahead, Taryn. I know you got something on your mind.

I feel like the first thing we would think about is, you know, we don't want to stop her career, is what are some good locations where you could rebuild, obviously wouldn't pay the same. Let's think about places that are more affordable. Can you actually build a business there? Yes or no? Great. Then we can think about the next steps from there. Like, what is the cost of living there? What do I need to make? And then what do you need to supplement for us to be able to get that number down, that percentage down?

I think that's a good start. Can I make some observations? Let's say you picked a mid-cost-of-living area, let's say I don't know, Austin, Texas. I'm just picking random places out.

Well, like Vegas would be a place that I know.

Vegas. Great, great example. I could build a business. So you could build a business. The weather is very favorable for your business. Cost of living would come way down. So in your situation, I would play that out.

Yeah.

But like, how much could you make? And the first year's gonna be difficult. You gotta build up that business. What kind of job could you get? Your rent would be way lower. And could we even economize more and like really crunch it in for a while until we hit this much in savings and then get a bigger space and then play that out? 'Cause that's one way to go.

Yep.

Can I make the observation about something I feel is like right on in the middle of us? You know what it is, right?

I have no idea.

Your family.

Oh, yeah.

I know you don't wanna go to South Carolina, but just play the idea for a second. If you went there, Would they charge you rent?

No.

No. No. So keep going. Play that out for just a second.

So we move out there, we wouldn't be paying rent. So we'd have a bit more time to get up. They have a pool so I could teach. They wouldn't—

My mom's very, very happy right now watching this. I'll tell you that much.

Keep going. So we'd have more time to like for me to build my business there.

So here's the only other, the other big thing. About not just the humidity with my hair, our lifestyle, being a gay couple. I'm not saying that can't exist in South Carolina, but where my parents live, that's def— it's still definitely like, there's a lot of segregation.

Yeah.

I know that it's come a long way, but we live in a bubble here, and we're able to have these 5 kids and not be completely judged and feel safe., with our kids and stuff. So that is definitely something that's not working in our favor if we were to go to that small town that my parents live in. Actually, for me, that's been probably the bigger factor for me not wanting to go back there.

Yeah.

For me, that would be worst-case scenario, which we're clearly in, um, but, you know, and it would be temporary, but I wouldn't want that to be our forever.

Yeah.

Um, if we had to, we absolutely would.

I really appreciate you sharing that, and I hate that we are in a situation where this is even a consideration.

Yeah.

Like, in my wish, we don't even— this would not be something we even talk about or have to worry about. But I think it's real. Have you ever talked about this together?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because she's— again, I've been the one keeping us in LA when I've had my job. We've stayed here for my job. She's been ready to, like, go. She's used to moving every 5 years, being military family, all that. My family would love it. Like, she's like, well, let's move to Charlotte, North Carolina. Like, my family would love, love having me closer. I'd love to be closer to my family, but that's always been the thing. And my brother argues that Charlotte's way more progressive in that way. And yeah, and which I'm sure it is.

Can we look at the numbers? This is one of those things where I think we need to start with numbers and then weigh in all the very important non-financial considerations, which are—

Yeah, sure.

Legit. So if we take a look, let's try Nevada. Let's just model it and play for a second. Okay. We're going to find a 3-bedroom apartment or townhouse. It's $1,500 to $3,000. Since you have 5 kids, you want to try to get a bit of a place that's safe, etc. $3,000. All right. Utilities are whatever. We'll keep that. It's going to be lower than that. $150.

I feel like insurance has to be lower, right? Insurance.

Yeah. Okay. Let's bring it to $500 though. You do have 5 kids and, you know, etc. I don't want to be too crazy here. Debt payments. Let's keep it at $1,000 just in case. The house. Groceries at $1,600. No.

Because you don't pay sales tax either there?

No, I'm just saying y'all can't spend that much.

Yeah. No, no. We've been closer to like $1,200. We've been closer to $1,200.

Clothes, $300. Uh.

I think I just put that in there just as a buffer, but—

Okay. $100. You do have kids. Phone, fine. Kids activities, uh—

Yeah, so that—

$4,700 a month?

No. Oh, that's medical too.

Oh, that's a big expense. This is your childcare and kids activities.

Well, kids activities would probably go away 'cause they wouldn't—

Yeah.

We wouldn't be here and doing that.

Walk in the desert. Goodbye. What is it? So how much are we putting? Um, $200 a month?

Yeah.

That's not a lot.

It is what it is.

Yeah, $2,200. And then, uh, what's this $3,200? That's childcare. Oh, childcare. You're going to have to have it, right?

Yeah.

Let's keep it the same. Maybe it's a bit cheaper, but let's keep it. Subscriptions at $1,130. Yeah, right. Yeah. $50 a month. All right. And then miscellaneous at $2,000. Yeah, right. Y'all have $350 to figure out your miscellaneous, which is things that come up, tires, etc. So you need to plan for that. It's going to be hard. That's actually challenging, but this is what it needs to be. Oh, I just got news. This actually is at $2,000 a month for your rent is bigger than your current house.

What? That's crazy.

You're currently at $9,923. Wow. Look at that fixed cost number. 55%.

Wow.

That's actually pretty cool. I did not expect that. Now I want to point something out. Let's say your debt does get paid off. Okay? Like, either through the house or eventually you pay it off. Watch what happens to this number. I'm gonna take it to zero. You're not paying $1,000 a month anymore. Whoa. Your fixed costs drop to 50%. That's actually amazing. Like, incredible. Which means you have $9,000— this can't be right— $9,000 a month to play with.

No, because that's based on an income that we're not making anymore, though.

Oh, yeah.

Your income would be different. Yeah, because my business is not—

Let's fix it.

How much would you make? Boy, it's got to come way down, right?

Way down.

Like $2,000, $3,000?

I'd say maybe $3,000. Okay, maybe less.

$75,500. Let's be conservative. Okay. And then Taryn? Um, maybe, I don't know. It's got to be less. They pay less.

$80,000? I have no idea.

$80,000. Let's say $5,000. I think you could find something there for sure. Oh, shit. Whoa.

Oh my gosh.

That's crazy.

Back up to 119% on fixed expenses.

Because childcare costs, probably.

Yeah. And I want to add your debt payments back in. Watch this. You're now at 132%. What does it tell you?

That I can't afford rent.

Yeah. You can't afford this very quick back of the napkin that I did. Even if you cut it by 30%, 40%, you cannot afford that. Tell me what's going through your head right now.

I'm like, are we moving to South Carolina?

Shall we play that out for a second?

Sure.

Because remember what we're doing here. We are starting with the financial numbers and we got to nail those first and then we go to the non-financial concerns. Like you might be like, it's too hot or it's too humid or it's, I don't know if it feels safe, but like first let's get the numbers.

Sure.

Okay, let's try that. So rent in South Carolina?

Would be zero.

But you mentioned you want to pay a little.

I'd want to contribute.

Let's pay $500 a month. All right. I don't know your family dynamic, but let's just do it. Utilities. What? Zero?

Zero, I guess.

All right.

Insurance, let's keep it.

Car payment, gas. Can you all get rid of one car?

We might if we're there, I guess. Yeah.

All right, let's drop this to— let's just say $700 conservatively.

Okay?

Okay. Debt payments, we'll keep that. Groceries at $1,200.

I think they'd be way less there.

Yeah.

I know, because then her parents would, like, be cooking and stuff.

Love it. $300. Still contributing something, but like way less. Clothes at $100. Are you cool with that? Fine. Phone, fine. Kids' activities, et cetera, childcare?

No, 'cause they'd be there. Yeah, we wouldn't need childcare.

Just take it to zero. Well, kids' activities, let's give them, they get, you know what, nice, $250.

I mean, I wouldn't wanna fully rely on them watching the kids, so that's a lot.

Let's add some.

Yeah. Let's add something, you're right.

It's not fair to them. I'm going to put $1,000. I know, but— It could be more. You're right. It's not fair. We should be considerate. Okay. Subscriptions at $50, miscellaneous at $350. Holy shit. Look at this number. It's $4,600 a month. That's crazy. It's striking, right? Yeah. Let's scroll up. You're at 62%. Probably got to change—

well, I don't know. With that income—

yeah, I don't know.

We have you making—

Like $80,000. $80,000. I don't even know, like, what would you do in South Carolina?

I'd probably work for school district or something because my mom has connections here. Yeah, true. Might pay pretty well for South Carolina, I would think.

Maybe like $65,000. Anything could be $80,000.

Maybe. Could be a pension. Might not pay $80,000 off the top, but it could be a pension, which would reduce the amount you need to invest. Worth finding out. Part of this CSP process and projection is you actually don't need to know everything.

Yeah.

It's like, be comfortable that we're sketching on the back of a napkin. But like, it will— if you're at 132%, it's over. You can't do— there's no fixing that. At 62%, you could probably wiggle around. You could ask your parents, hey, can we pay a little bit less right now? Or you can pay them more. There's so many different ways at 62%. At 130%, it's over. I want to point out that in this scenario, you have $2,854 a month left over, which— what would you do with that money if you had it?

Invest.

Yeah. Invest and save.

And save. Right now.

That's what I would do. I would take a little bit, you know, and spend it, maybe 5 to 7%, low. And the rest of my take-home pay would go to building up the savings and building up investing, which will allow you to not have to live in South Carolina forever. It will allow you to eventually have enough to be able to move somewhere else. You can take your time finding a job because you're in the comfort of home. Also, it allows you to eventually get towards that rich life of being able to eat out. You can't do it right now, but you could if you start building up savings and investments. What are you taking away? I'm not pushing for any one thing, but I am showing you how to project— Yeah, the possibilities. What is your reaction to this, Taryn?

I mean, my initial reaction is obviously I just feel like we've failed, which is really disappointing. Yeah, and obviously nothing against my family, just ugh. Like, it's just a real bummer that we're in this situation. So it makes sense and we gotta do it.

Melissa, what's your reaction to this?

I'm trying to like actually picture us like living with her parents and I'm like, what would that do to our marriage?

Well, like I said, I think they would move out.

Yeah, but would they really move out? Where would they go? I don't know. That's not realistic. I feel like they say that that would not happen. And I'm also wondering like how many months would this be? You know, like how short-term, long-term would it be? If we get to that point where we save enough, where would we go next? Like what would we even be saving for? Like if we're not paying a rent, then we get used to not paying a rent. You know what I mean? So then it's like, how do we— reenter society. So those are like all the thoughts that come to my mind.

I like these questions. A couple things that occur to me. One, I think you raise a really good question of like, what would happen to our marriage? And I think in your scenario, your marriage needs a mission. And so I would actually flip it from like, oh, this could be like, uncomfortable to like, wow, what a blessing that we have a family that can offer us space, cut our rent to almost nothing, and help with the kids, and most importantly, give us a mission. And that mission being, we are going to build the skills of managing our money. We have proven unable to do that until now. And right now we're living in LA, which is basically the Olympics of money.

Yeah.

LA and New York is where it is incredibly expensive and the world is against you unless you're making a ton of money. We're going to get our bearings with the blessing of our family to be able to allow us to stay or a super low cost of living city where we make enough, etc. And we're going to learn month after month how to save, how to invest, how to not spend the way we used to. And once we hit these milestones, we could talk about the next step. But this is how much we need to have in our savings. This is how much we need to have invested. This is how many months we need to have done it consecutively for. That's how I would think about it. I can't tell you to do it, but if we're talking about a reset, which in my opinion is what is needed so you never get back into this situation. Yeah. Yeah, you can't reset while still living, you know, next to every freaking LA restaurant and, and basically doing the same thing that you've been doing, just with wiping off the debt. You'll be right back into it. Yep. It's kind of striking to see the difference between like Vegas and living at home. What do you think?

I think if we move to Vegas, what money are we going with? And I have no client base. You don't even have a job.

Well, yeah.

So it's like starting from, like, really scratch.

Starting from scratch and maybe even starting in debt because where's all that moving money going to come from? Like, hopefully you sell the house for a bunch of money, but even that takes a while. So now you're back on the credit card.

Yeah.

I don't want that. I don't want one more day of paying on a credit card.

Same.

Taryn, realistically, when do you think that you could start working again?

I mean, I'm ready now. I just cannot. Like I said, I have the one role that I've been— I'm on the fourth round. But again, it's like, it would be in LA or New York. So even now that's just feeling like, ugh.

That would probably be pretty hard.

Yeah.

I think in another place in time and a place that you could get to, just not today.

Yeah, yeah.

You would have— enough buffer, enough savings, enough healthy habits to be able to go like, okay, LA it is, or New York. But today it's like really challenging.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

What about your kids? If you changed nothing, you kind of kept on this path, what do you think they would notice?

To date, nothing's really, really changed for them. Again, the 12-year-old knows, 'cause like we put our house up for sale and it's like, why? And you know, like we're having some of those conversations.

Yeah. What about as their parents, got more and more into debt and older and older, less able to recover. Think they would notice their parents getting stressed?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then as they turned 18 and 20 and 24 and 26, what do you think they would take?

The same things we took from it. Like the same thing that I did.

Which was?

Like, that is okay. You'll come out of it.

Everybody has debt. Yeah. It's fine. Just try your best and things will be okay. Yeah. And then it repeats.

Which is what I'm like literally teaching them the opposite of.

Oh, you're teaching them that?

Mm-hmm. Like we're teaching like—

Through words?

Through words, of course. Yeah.

And how about through actions?

No, because we have no money to actually save. So I'm not— I'm like, you guys save your money. That's great.

Yeah. I heard that kids love when parents tell them something but do the opposite. They love that learning style. It works.

Okay, yeah, it works.

That's why I mean that having a mission is actually really powerful. Like incredibly powerful. More than you may even internalize. The idea of like making a massive change can be scary, no doubt about it. But actually bringing the family along and teaching them like, this is something that we have to do here's why. And at age-appropriate levels, the 12-year-old should know basically everything. Like, maybe not exact numbers, but like, this is what we did for the last 20 years. We've been in and out of debt, and it started off because we were making a lot of money and we would spend, and that's fine. Like, it's nice to be able to do that, but we didn't pay attention. And actually, we, we didn't communicate. We don't sit down and talk about money. We do it this way, we do it that way. And we've realized That's a mistake. And we got into a lot of debt. And that's why now we are selling our house and we need your help to start over. Here's what we are doing. We are reading "I Will Teach You to Be Rich" together. We are joining Ramit Sethi's money coaching program, whatever. We need you to come with us and we need you to help us come up with a plan and stick with it. We're going to hang it on the fridge or we're going to talk about it once a month. But we need you because we need all of us to do it as a family. How do you think your kids would react to that?

Yeah, I think they'd be excited to do it.

Yeah, the 12-year-old would be. The other ones probably don't fully understand yet, but we'll get them there.

Yeah. Younger ones is obviously different. Not everything has to be a lecture for sure.

Right.

But just like kind of like telling the 12-year-old, like, you know, instead of a dollar, like, I made $1,000. And this is what I did with it. Kids love hearing their parents' mistakes. They love it.

Yeah.

And it actually is a way to bond closer when it comes to money. And the thing is, like, no parents do this because they don't even have the confidence or competence in their own financial knowledge. How are they going to share mistakes? They don't even realize the mistakes they are making, but you do. So this is why I say marriage having a mission. Is really powerful. You all have some work to do. You have some numbers to crunch. I think it's worth looking into jobs, talking to your mom. How much do these jobs pay? And getting really curious about what it would look like. Okay? I would love it if you could do it with an open mind. I actually think both of you are quite adaptable in the way you think. I've seen that today. So if that voice comes up in the back of your head, name it. Mm-hmm. You know, like stationary Melissa, some—

Her name is Michelle.

Michelle. Michelle. Yes. And Michelle, like, wants you to just stay put and keep doing the same thing. And we don't want that because we know that no matter what, you've got to make a huge change. It has to happen. Okay. Taryn, you're looking for a job. I'm going to gift you a copy of my Dream Job program. So you can look for a job. Much of this will be familiar to you because you've worked in top-tier jobs. Some of it will be new to you. I think you can use it to get a high-paying job even now, potentially remotely, which would make things quite amazing for the two of you.

Yeah.

Okay, so we'll send you a copy of that. You can use it. Let us know if you have any questions. And then I want you to become decisive. Like, the house is on the market. You've proven you can be decisive. That's amazing. Yeah. I modeled out if you make $150K, that's still great. Anything above that is like gravy. Like you could fill up a savings account. You could start to simulate getting a steady income, which I think is critical.

Yeah.

You have flexibility with your family. They're so generous in terms of allowing you to pause that loan.

Mm-hmm.

But if you have the money, you may want to consider paying some of it, if not All of it depends on how much you make. Any questions on any of that?

I don't think so.

I think the big theme is be decisive, move fast, and it's got to be different. That is how I would think about it. Okay, Melissa, what surprised you most about today's conversation?

Possibly moving to South Carolina. Seeing the numbers, like, worked out and the fact that in my mind, like I thought, oh, we'll sell the house, we'll like go do this, it would all like work out. And it might not work out that way.

Yeah.

It's probably the most surprising.

Yeah. Seeing the numbers for sure. Because I think I was of the mindset too, like selling the house will be huge. Me getting another job will be huge. And then it's like we're renting. But yeah, it's like we're still, to your point, we're just going to end up back in the same place.

Yes.

I think I thought we won't be paying $8,000 a month, we'll be paying, you know, $5,000. We won't be paying the loan. That's another, like, it feels like a lot of money when you just say it like that. So I think that was probably the most surprising for me. It is like, oh, wow. Yeah, we really can't make this work.

That's really awesome. Sometimes just knowing, like, that doesn't work is actually the most helpful thing at all.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. You know, like, we didn't even include moving fees into this.

Yeah, that was going in my head, too.

That's a lot.

Because, like, even shipping a car out there—

Yeah, that's a lot.

No, we'd be driving.

Well, we could drive it, but yeah.

All this stuff is like— Still bad. Needs to be modeled in. And it's $5,000, $10,000, $15,000 when you add all this stuff in deposit. Like, it's a lot of money. So what I want— and I'm so glad you, you were surprised by that— is the importance of running the numbers. And, and you'll notice every time I had a choice to make, I added more money because I want to be conservative. I never want to be surprised with an unexpected cost.

Yeah.

If anything, I'm going to be surprised by having extra money at the end of the year.. But I am the opposite of delusional. I try to be realistic and a little conservative. I believe in myself. I believe that I can work and get amazing things, land a dream job, start another business no matter where. I believe that. And I'm going to model out that maybe it's going to take me 4 times as long. Okay. How do you feel now versus when you walked in here, Taryn?

A little more stressed out just because I really didn't think not living in LA wasn't going to even be an option. It just felt like I just need to get a job again and like sell the house and like, um, so I feel a little more stressed just in that we have a lot of work to do and we're going to be making some very big different decisions that we haven't— like, we joked about like going to South Carolina, which, and again, we knew of dire straits. Yeah, we absolutely I don't think I realized we were like, oh, we are dire straits pretty much.

Yeah.

Or like right there.

Yeah.

But also, I feel good in that, like, okay, we have an answer. It feels more clear. Mm-hmm.

The overreliance on feelings in money is really common. And in my opinion, is like a major problem. Many people just talk about how they feel about money. And ironically, I'm the one, trying to encourage us to like lean into our feelings. Feelings are real. It's not just math. But we always have to start with the numbers. Because too often, too many of us are only talking about our feelings. And that's how you get into tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even a million dollars of debt and not really understand how. So I actually am really happy to hear you say you're feeling like, wow, maybe a little stressed. Stress, but that's okay. I never shy away from stress. We can handle it. And wow, a realization. We have some big decisions to make. That's amazing. How about you, Melissa? How are you feeling now versus when you walked in?

Ooh, definitely stressed. Kind of more confused. It's a lot. I'm like processing.

It's a lot. You're right.

I'm like, I'm like literally thinking like numbers and processing like, the move and like living there. And yeah.

Here's how I would approach it in your situation. It's very difficult to do these numbers in your head. And you saw that, right? You talked about like, if we sell this and we go to $5,000 a month, and it just kind of like seemed fine. That's 'cause you weren't really doing the numbers. So the way I would approach it if I'm in your situation and I'm like, whoa, this is a lot. I would say to myself, first of all, One big takeaway that I've gotten from this and from Ramit Sethi is we need to do the numbers much more carefully. We both need to do them independently and then bring them to each other and compare notes. Like, we need to take this seriously. Number 2, I don't have to do this right now. Like, right— I trust that when I'm at home and I can look at Zillow and I can plug in some numbers, I will come up with those. But I don't need to do it in my head. And actually, I don't trust my own math in my head. So numbers need to be done at a computer. The bigger question is, am I willing to make a major change in where we live, how we live, and our relationship around money?

Mm-hmm.

That, that the two of you have work to do on. What is our dynamic? Controller, bystander. How do we change that? Because just fixing the math, even moving to a place where we pay no rent, is not gonna change a thing until the two of us are partners. What does partnership look like? Are there other episodes of this podcast we should go listen to because we need to recalibrate? Therapist, et cetera, et cetera. That is where I think you could spend time as well as the numbers. Thank you so much for coming in.

Thank you for our time. Thank you.

I don't take any pleasure in showing them that their life is about to change. It's not fun, actually. I would rather have somebody who I tweak a couple numbers and help show them they're gonna have $16 million. But the fact of the matter is that they are in a major crisis and they need a bit of shaking to realize how bad it really is. This would be bad if it was just the two of them. With 5 children, it is catastrophic and they need to take action now. One of the things that I feel fortunate about is that when you go to somebody who is a third party, that person can cut right through all of the other issues that may have bogged you down in the weeds and just tell you exactly what is at stake here. And the fact is, they've got to move. They cannot stay in the same place. They cannot even cut their rent by 30%. Nope, they have to make massive, gargantuan life changes. Deep down they've been counting on selling the house to patch up this problem, thinking, "Once we get through that, we'll go back to the way we were." You could even see it when I asked them what their rich life is. You know, they were talking about ordering food. In this future, if they follow my suggestions and carefully run the numbers, that simply will not exist. And that's actually an extremely hard transition to make. Can you imagine as a household making, what, $350,000, $450,000 a year, and 2 years later, you're not able to order delivery. I don't think many people can actually understand the enormity, the severity of that change. But that is exactly what I am asking them to do. Now, they don't have to do it. They can sell their house, pay off a little bit of debt, stay in LA, try to get a better job, try, try, try. And I guarantee you in 5 years they will be back in debt. It is a horrible life to go through struggling over and over again. Because when you don't get out of a bad place, you start to think that it's not just the world, it's you. You start to be demoralized. You start to basically give up. I won't allow that. That's not why people come on this show. They want the truth. They want me to tell it to them. They want me to give it to them compassionately. Ramit Sethi. Notice that I didn't rip them apart. It would have been easy. I certainly would have got better views on my YouTube Shorts, but that's not what this show is. I'm not here to humiliate people for making poor decisions, which they have. I slowed it down. I asked them lots of questions. Sometimes when they went down the wrong path, I let them, and then I tried to bring them back. I need them to get to the point where they realize buying that pool was a big mistake. Not talking about money as partners was a big mistake. Not cutting their expenses immediately when Taryn lost her job was a big mistake. I think they can get there. The fastest way is complete radical changes in the way that they treat money. Don't look back. Don't try to bring part of LA with you. That chapter is over. We appreciate it. It's been great. Now we are moving on to a new chapter of our life. And I'm really eager to see what they decide to do. Let's check out their follow-ups.

So after our meeting with Ramit Sethi, I think the biggest surprise for me were the beliefs that I held from growing up in my childhood into adulthood about finances and money and The biggest surprise was how it's gonna be such a big overhaul for our lives that we need to do in order to be where we wanna be financially. So much so that I processed it really hard that night and really wasn't expecting that. So we are working on our CSP. We are figuring out, are we moving outta California? Are we going to stay depending on what job she might get? But short term is obviously sell the house and move in with family for 3 or 4 months to get our bearings and figure out what the next big step is, whether it's moving out of state or staying in California.

So I think the biggest takeaway for me after meeting with Ramit Sethi was just how severe our situation is. I knew it was bad, um, but hearing that we need a full reset of thinking, of way of living, that was probably the biggest surprise for me. I don't think I realized just how severe it was. We have to make huge life changes right now if we want things to get better, if we want to be able to, you know, have financial freedom, enjoy traveling, eating out, fun things, not having debt, really big changes need to happen for us. So that's the biggest takeaway is that we just, you know, no more talking about it, no more let's sit down and put down a budget together and stick to it and then forget about it 2 days later. Like, we actually need to make— Yeah. Huge life changes to make this work. As far as what changes we're actually making now, it's selling the house, couples therapy, really evaluating other areas where we could live, whether it be with my family in South Carolina, whether it be with Melissa's family here in Torrance temporarily. Um, you know, we're figuring that all out to see what we can do. So those are our first immediate steps, but there's going to be a lot of other bigger steps, you know, obviously, that are going to come through with couples counseling and figuring out, you know, what changes we need to make and that sort of thing.

Hi. So it's been 6 weeks since we sat down with Ramit Sethi, and there's been some significant changes. Our house is on the market to sell. That'll take a huge chunk of— money from our fixed costs so we can rent something way lower to try to keep within that 60% range. We have gone over all of our numbers in depth and cut everything we needed to. We brought a credit card we transferred to 0%, so we're not paying just minimum payment on that. We're able to put more towards debt in general. Um, one of the bigger things is that we started couples therapy, which I think has helped us get through some tough times since meeting with Ramit, because we really went through a big mindset shift after, and it both kind of rattled us both. And I think now being in therapy, it's really helped us get a grasp of financially where we are and our mindset around that. Mm-hmm.

And I'm gonna be stepping in more, not sitting on the sidelines as much when it comes to finances. So we're gonna have a weekly meeting to talk about upcoming expenses for the month. I'm gonna manage the budget for what we have to spend for the month on groceries and school stuff and all that sort of thing. So we're definitely gonna be tighter aligned on that, less all on Melissa for that. I also still was looking for work, but I did land a contract position, which I'm excited about. So that's good. I'll be back working again. I at least have guaranteed work for about 6 to 11 months. So that is definitely a burden off the shoulders, but still looking for something more full-time.

And then in addition to my swim business, I'm gonna be looking into like a remote assisting job So whether it's helping other moms with like stuff that they can't do themselves, like scheduling appointments and everything, or working for an executive and just being a virtual assistant, I'm going to look into that just so I can have a side hustle to bring in more money to help towards the debt and investments and savings. So it's looking better. We just need to sell this house. And oh, the other thing is potentially moving in with family for a few months just to have some money that we can put into savings. That's another option we will be doing, as well as potentially renting near family who have offered to do childcare for a year, which would be a huge savings. So all of that is gonna be contributing to helping us save more and hopefully investing and saving— spending less, hopefully investing and saving more.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but the meeting with Ramit Sethi was a huge wake-up call to both of us. We definitely have a mindset change. Lots, lots more to do still. I feel like we're just scratching the surface, but, um, you know, I think we're, we're on the right track.

Yep. Thank you.

Thank you. Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply. Or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&As, and an amazing, huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.