266. "I carry the household, the bills, and the stress"

You said it, I listened. A lot of you have been asking for me to do more around single people and money. It's time to do it. I am casting a new reality series about love and money. So if you are single and you live in LA, I want to talk to you. Go to iwt.com/datingshow. And if you got friends who are single in LA, send them the link, iwt.com/datingshow.

I don't know where to start. Like, I really don't know. I have no idea where your paycheck goes.

Where's the money? I would be pissed.

Not at her, at myself.

How much credit card debt do you have right now?

Like $1,000.

Really?

Yeah. Don't do that.

How long it going to take you to pay that $1,000?

Not even a month. He sees the balance and flips out.

What's the problem?

You know what, I don't want to talk about that.

Let's take a break. What did you decide?

We're here and we're ready to play ball.

You're so close to living a great life, but every time comes into picture, you're derailed. What do you think happens if the two of you keep seeing money differently for the rest of your lives?

Resentment, possibly separation.

You are married, you have a 10-month-old. It's time to get the shit locked in. I could see you guys easily going on 40 years and fighting about money.

Dang, don't curse us.

I almost ended today's session midway through, and I want you to understand why.

Ramit Sethi.

What if you found yourself in a new country with a completely different set of rules, a totally different culture than the one you were raised with? Culture permeates every part of our lives. It tells us how we raise our children, what brand of laundry detergent we use, and who's in charge of the money. So what happens when those rules change? Today I'm speaking with Alexis and Edwin. They're 29 and 30 years old. They've been married for 2 years and they have a 10-month-old baby. In her application, Alexis wrote, my husband just immigrated from the Dominican Republic less than 2 years ago and personal finance is completely new for him. I feel like I'm teaching him while trying to manage our household and it is overwhelming. We hate fighting over money, but the cultural differences feel like we are speaking 2 different languages. She also writes, he still operates like a single man and I hate it. There is a lot to unpack here. Let's start by looking at their conscious spending plan or CSP. And if you want my help with your CSP, you can join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching. Assets: $12,000. Investments: $44,000. Savings: $5,500. That's quite low, especially with a baby. Debt $26,000 for a total net worth of $35,400. Fixed costs are 71%, which is a little higher than I'd like to see. Investments at 6%, savings at 12%, guilt-free spending at 11%. I have a lot of questions, so let's get started with Alexis and Edwins. So Alexis, you applied to come and speak to me.

Sure did.

What was going on at the very moment that you wrote that application?

Funny enough, I had the tab open for probably 2 weeks. And I think what made me hit send on the application was an argument that we had had about trying to open a joint bank account. Remember that?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I've pushed this on him since before we even got married. We've been married now for about 2 years. And I've asked him this since before we got married. I think as a couple, we should be able to trust each other enough to share things, and money should be the primary thing. He never agreed with that. I definitely think that when I agreed to marry him and become one and create a family together, I also assumed that finances would be at the crux of that. Being able to raise a family depends on us being able to pay for and support that family. So I thought, why not have a joint account? He disagreed on that.

So what was the first time he disagreed? Was it before you got married?

Yes.

Okay. And in the last case, right before you applied, walk me through that conversation. In fact, can we just recreate it?

Why not? Yeah.

So you said—

I don't want to be married if we're not going to have a joint bank account.

And then I said, that's not supposed to be a problem to have my own account and you having your own account if the bills are paid.

I'm not saying you cannot have your own account. What I'm saying is we can have our own and we can have a joint one.

Why can't I have my own personal savings and you have your own personal savings, plus we save for the future? And then that's how it's been.

We can have that and have a joint bank account.

Um, how does money flow in your relationship right now?

I mean, it comes in and it goes out.

Who gets paid? You get paid?

Yeah, you also get paid too.

So you both have a job?

Yeah.

And then the money comes in Where?

Separately.

Separately.

And then what?

And then he Cash Apps me money.

Okay.

I am the bill payer. I'm the saver.

How do you know how much to send her?

Because I know how much we spend. Okay. How much she has to pay.

So you have a number every month?

Yeah.

How much is it?

$1,000.

$1,000 flat?

Yeah.

Okay, so you take that $1,000 and then you use it to pay bills?

Yes.

And that's it.

That's it.

Okay.

Yeah, sounds like a pretty simple system. I like simple.

Yeah.

Where's the problem?

It's not always enough, and he is very much like, make it enough. So I have to hold that dilemma.

She says it's not never enough, but, um, you know what's going on?

Tell me.

Let me tell you this. When I first moved here, my first job was Target, right? My conscience always told me like I have to get something better because, um, I always felt like less when she's doing more, and then I feel like I'm not doing anything. I was giving her like, like half of it, but it was not even enough. Okay. And then I was like, but she never brought it up. When I get the other job, like I start making a better amount.

Yeah.

She was like, oh, we should make a joint account. I was like Wait, why you didn't tell me that before when I was working at Target? What makes you change your mind now? I'm making like a little— you think I'm going to change? I'm going to change my personality? You think I'm going to be wasting my money? You think I'm like, I'm going to become a different person just because of that? She was, no, I'm nervous. I think you're going to be sending your money back home and then doing this, doing that, spending money like crazy. I said, no, why would I change if when I was making nothing, I was seeing myself like I was not doing enough for you. Now I'm having— that's where I have to show you who I am.

This is the argument that the two of you have?

Yeah.

And how does it end?

So far, we didn't still make the joint account, but you can ask her how I've been behaving myself with that.

I check out. I completely— like, I mentally, I just check out. I just feel like we're talking past each other because he's coming from a place of like, I'm now making more money than I was making before, and I want to show you that I can be independent. And I love that. And also, now that you are making more money, you have more to contribute to the joint, you know, the pot, the shared pot. So he's— I think he's very much stuck on this idea that like, when I was making less, you didn't ask me for this much. Now that I'm making more, you're asking for all these things. And I'm like, because you can actually contribute them. That's why I'm asking for them now. Okay.

If she wants that joint account that bad, the amount that I give her, I think it's enough for her to put on the side for our savings because we have a savings.

Did you catch what just happened? Alexis is saying, I want us to be one unit. Edwin is saying, I don't want to lose myself. And that is part of the conflict here. See, on the surface, they are arguing about a bank account, a joint bank account. But underneath, we're really exploring trust and pride and what each of them believes that marriage is supposed to look like. Think about Alexis's perspective. Money should be shared because they are building a family. For Edwin's, he's got to keep his own account because it feels like proof he is responsible and independent. Think about their views from their own perspectives. I can kind of understand both sides, but I can also tell you this is not working. This system where he sends her $1,000 and then she manages everything, and then when it's not enough, the answer is basically, "Figure it out." That is not a plan. That's not collaboration. And that creates a lot of resentment over time. My hope is to help them see this is not working and it's actually not normal. This is not a healthy way of dealing with money together. Together, and there's actually a much better way to do it. The question is, can they budge on the way they look at money, on the identity that they have created for each other, for marriage, for money, so that they can come up with a healthier dynamic? Have you two talked about your cultural differences?

They come up.

You have a 10-month-old, right?

Yes.

Did you talk about differences in parenting culture?

Yes.

Yes, we do.

Okay. What other kinds of differences have you talked about?

I think parenting and money are the main ones. Parenting, money, and family values, I think, come up too.

That's it? Don't you have a lot more cultural differences? What the hell? Oh yeah, what food? What type of—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do you like to do for fun? There's like a million. I could find him in 10 seconds.

Yeah, I guess that's, that's—

you ever talk about this?

Yeah.

Or did it just come up?

When it comes up.

Okay, that's my answer.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah, talk about it. In fact, maybe even talking about cultural differences is cultural itself.

Yeah.

What do you think happens if the two of you who see money differently keep seeing money differently for the rest of your lives?

Resentment, possibly separation, or just separate lives that are lived in tandem, but again, separately.

Okay. It was striking the language you used. Where you said, I don't want to be married if we don't combine our finances.

That's the one thing I got mad about it because that's not what I was expecting for her to say.

What would you expect her to say?

If I don't know something, I will learn from it. Like, if you know that you know more about it, about money than me, I was— I would prefer she said, okay, let's work on it. Okay.

Have you ever told her that?

No.

Tell her now.

I would like you to say, let's work on our budget better. Let's work on our savings better. And then maybe let's work on our, um, joint account. What?

Stop. Don't explain it. Just stop. That was great. What's your reaction?

I definitely feel like you shut down when I bring up money. So when you're asking me now to work on things with you, working on things with you requires us to talk about it. So if I bring it up and you don't want to talk about it, how do we work on it? If I write it down and say, remember the notebook I used to have where we would put our, you know, I get paid every Friday. I put down what I got paid, how I'm going to pay for certain specific things. How I allocate that money. I ask you to do the exact same thing. You don't do it. How can we work on it? I have no idea where your paycheck goes.

As I said before, I was not making enough. For me, it was not like a big deal to just give her what I— And then the thing is, in my job, I'll be spending a lot of money cooking, buying food outside and all that since—

Evan, those are excuses.

Like, why are you guys here? You each have a story that you tell yourselves that you seem very committed to. I used to not earn a lot of money, so therefore XYZ, ABC. You, you haven't— I tried to do that, you didn't listen, so how are we supposed to do this? Like, you all want to keep repeating these stories? Because if so, this will be a very short conversation. Or do you want to create something together?

We want to create together.

I want to.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Okay.

What I heard from Edwin was, I don't like that you talk about divorce when you're talking about money. I would like you to not do that. What is your reaction to that?

I agree. Sometimes I think I take things too far when I really want to make a point and make you feel something. So I can apologize for that, and I won't do that anymore.

Great.

Yeah.

How's that feel?

Better. I feel good.

Cool. That was great. And the opposite— you said to Edwins, when I try to talk about money, you don't want to talk about it. When I write it in a notepad, you don't want to write it. What is she really saying there?

She's telling me she wants to know how I spend my money, what I do with my money.

No, that's not what she's saying. Listen to what she's saying, not the story that you have. The story you have is somebody's trying to check up on me, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

You never even said that out loud, but it's so obvious. It's written all over your face. That's a story. She's not— she hasn't said that. What is she saying?

She's just saying she wants information.

Yes. So what's your reaction to that?

Uh, I was not doing it, but I can do it now. I can work on that.

Tell her.

I can work on that. Cool.

Small details.

Yeah.

But what just happened there?

We're connecting.

Yeah, it kind of feels good.

It does.

It's like, what the hell? But so much of it is actually listening to what they're saying. Not as soon as they start saying words, you bring an old story into the picture. This is like, this is marriage 101. Did you see what just changed? Nothing about their finances really moved, but they finally stopped arguing with the version of themselves that they had created in their heads. Alexis actually admitted that she takes it too far when she brings up divorce, and Edwin was able to see that when she asks about his money, she's not actually trying to control him. She's maybe trying to understand him, which is a totally different conversation. This is why when we talk about money, we are rarely just talking about the numbers on a screen. We're not talking about accounts. What we are really trying to figure out is what is our identity? What is our relationship with our partner, with money, with the way that we see the world? And can we actually listen to each other without reaching for our old stories? How come everybody teaches you how to save, but nobody teaches you the skill of spending money meaningfully. It's a tragedy to end up older and older, having atrophied at the skill of using your money to live a rich life. I need you to take this seriously. And if you need help planning your retirement and you want to go into scenarios and more specificity, check out Facet. Facet can help you make a plan that lets you use your money for the moments that matter to you. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals— always a CFP, always a fiduciary— who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision, and Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/RamitSethi to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC-registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing a fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome. I think a lot of us feel really good trying to optimize and fiddle with little expense. Ooh, look how productive I am. I shaved $0.35 off my daily coffee consumption. Look, I love optimizing, but sometimes it really pays to zoom out and look at the big picture. Does your spreadsheet protect your kids if you get hit by a bus tomorrow? No. So instead, if you want a meaningful way to use your money to protect your family, check out term life insurance from Fabric by Gerber Life. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's made for busy parents like you, all online, on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required. If you've got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, now is a great time to lock in low rates. They have flexible, high-quality policies to fit your family's needs, all with a 30-day money-back guarantee. And even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not be enough to protect your family, especially if you leave your job or you get let go. Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com/Ramit. Meetfabric.com/Ramit and use my link so they know I sent you. Meetfabric.com/ramitsethi. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company, not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Is there a circumstance where you would combine money?

I mean, I thought it'd be us having a kid. We automatically would combine money, but that might not be for you. What would it be for you?

First of all, I would combine my money with her for family and everything, but I I'm saying for future, I see it like I go more for future, combining my money with her, like making business.

Okay. And for family, you two are a family.

Yeah.

You have a baby.

Yeah.

So would you combine your money for that?

Yes.

Okay, that sounds good. Why have you not done it yet?

I do it. No, I don't. No, how I can do that? Since I don't know, and I want to be clear with that, how I do that?

Good question. Combining income is usually people get their paychecks.

Yeah.

And when married, they send all of the paychecks or most of the paychecks to one place, one place, one checking account. And that they have a joint checking, a joint savings account. And that's where all the bills are paid out of, things like your rent or your mortgage, groceries, childcare, eating out comes from there. Then sometimes if people are smart and they've read my book, then they have their own individual accounts as well. And so they have a little bit of money that goes to an individual account and they can go and do their hobbies or self-care, whatever they like to do, no questions asked. It's their individual money. But most of the money when married is in the joint account.

So you're telling me she was right this whole time? Okay, so you're telling me, um, when I get paid and she get paid, uh, most of the money has to go in one place, like in the same account, me and her?

Yes.

Yeah, we can do that.

That's it? You just needed a another guy to tell you that?

I mean, it's not even—

I'm like, what the fuck, man? Come on, every woman watching this wants to kill you right now. But even I am like, what in the hell? It just took another guy?

That's crazy, man.

You know what I told you?

Tell me.

To me myself, if we have the savings, what's the difference? Okay, between what you're saying, the joint and the savings, it's like it's not the same.

I mean, so I'll answer that question. It's a good question. Yeah, but I guarantee that your wife has answered this question already. What did she tell you?

Yeah, saving is saving, and the joint is for spending and paying bills.

And, and what was your reaction to that?

I didn't give her any answer to that, and I didn't react bad, and But not good either.

Yeah. Do you trust her with money?

Uh, yeah.

Do you trust her knowledge with money?

Yeah, she's good at it.

Okay. Do you respect her?

I do. But, um, if I really trust her 100% with money, sometimes nope, because I know she likes to buy stuff. To buy? Yeah, she's a—

like what? I like to buy stuff too.

No, if she has to go to a trip, she'll be buying 100 stuff. Using the credit card and everything.

So you don't like that?

No.

Okay, can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

Because you two have not combined your money, can she afford it?

Um, yes and no. Okay. Because if she can't afford it, she wouldn't be using the credit card.

Oh, how would she do it?

She would do it with her own money. Like, she can use the credit card, like, for me, for big stuff. Yeah, not for little things like, let's say, a shoe. Okay, a little dress or stuff like that.

Even if she has the money to pay it off?

I mean, that's the point. Sometimes she, she'll be, oh, I, I will pay it when I have it. Ah, but if you know you don't have it, don't touch it.

Have you all talked about this before?

All the time.

Okay, what's your take on it? Do you agree that you're spending on the credit card for stuff you can't afford? No. How much credit card debt do you have?

Right now? Like $1,000.

Really?

Yeah. Don't do that. It's literally $1,000. It's never been more than like $1,500.

Well, I thought it was paid off.

It's paid off and then I spend and then I pay it off. That's how it goes.

Okay. It's okay.

This is a really big point of contention because this goes back to, I think, our cultural differences about money and the understanding of what credit means, what credit cards are, how they're meant to be used. His idea that using a credit card means I'm borrowing money I don't have, when in reality I have the money. But if I can also buy it on credit, get cash back, and then pay it right back after, what's the difference?

How long it gonna take you to pay that thousand?

Not even a month. That's the point. We have a joint credit card, or he's an authorized user on mine, and he sees the balance and flips out, not knowing that I already have the money to pay it off. Okay.

What's your understanding of how credit cards work?

I understand the credit card point, like, especially here, that's how you, you build, uh, credit. Yeah.

Uh, so what's the problem if she has the money to pay it off?

I know she's gonna pay it, but, uh, you know what, um, I don't want to talk about that.

Can I share something with you?

Yeah.

I use my credit card every day. I use it for everything. Something as small as a pack of gum, something as big as international flight. I use it for everything. I have the money to pay it off. I'm not going into debt. I use it. Number one is convenient. Just pull it out. I don't have to carry cash or all these other cards. Just boom. Number two, there's protection. So if something goes wrong, I can call the credit card and get a refund, no problem. Easy. 3, tracking. Because I spend everything in one place, I can track it, I can analyze it. It's all there. Does that surprise you to hear?

Actually, no. I read that on your book. Okay. But I read it, but I didn't keep it. Yeah, but now you're repeating it. I might work on that.

But can you see how that's frustrating? That your wife has read it as well. She's using credit. We'll get to the $1,000 in credit card debt, but in general, using credit cards for daily purchases, nothing wrong with that if you can afford it. And she's told you this like many, many times and you were like, no, no, no. But then I come in and you're like, oh, okay.

No, I'm gonna tell you this. Back home, I got very struggle bad in a bad way with the credit card.

Okay.

So since then, that stuck in my head. And then I think, like, I kept it like it's just a bad habit.

Okay.

Yeah, that's it.

Fair enough. I can understand that. But you now are married and have a kid.

Mhm.

This idea of, like, this thing happened to me when I was younger, and so I just don't want to talk about it anymore— that doesn't work. It just simply does not work. You two cannot survive as a couple certainly not getting clarity as you told me you wanted, if you are not willing to actually work together. And right now you are not. I am frustrated by Edwin's approach here. It feels very unilateral— here's what I'm doing— and not collaborative at all. She's over here looking at the numbers, worrying about it, trying to communicate, and it feels like he's doing this thing where it's just like, well, This is what I decided, so figure it out. At the same time, I need to acknowledge he comes from a different culture. Now, how much of that culture is being brought here and how much of it is just him, that I don't know because I'm not an expert in his culture. But what I can say is it is really hard to go from one culture to another. So I want to give him a little bit of grace, but I also want to help him see that they are trying to create a successful relationship here in the US. And they need to know how to do that. What I look for when I speak to couples is honesty. I always promise to be honest to the people in my community, always. Now, you guys came a long way to speak to me. Yeah, it's not easy to come into a studio and talk about all these numbers and issues. It's not easy. I appreciate that. The last thing I want to have happen is you tell me what you think I want to hear. You're actually going to resent this conversation if that is what you do. And right now I get the sense you're telling me what I want to hear. I don't find it believable that for years you have resisted against combining money, and then I give you two sentences and you go, okay, we can do it.

I was just confusing between saving and joining. To me, it was not like a big deal.

But it was to her.

I didn't see it like a big deal. That's all I can say. To get paid and then, uh, not having the joint account, to me, it was not like that important.

Yeah. You know, when I was single, I was living in New York. I was going out a lot. I was really enjoying being a single guy, and I had a lot of friends who were single guys too. And we enjoyed the independence of being able to go out whenever we want, do whatever we want. And one by one, friends started to get into serious relationships, kind of at the age where that relationship is probably going to be the person you propose to. And we would talk about it. What does it feel like to not be able to do whatever we want? And suddenly we have to start like, I gotta check with my girlfriend, and it feels like you're trapped. That's one way to look at it. Or another way is like, God, I got to think about this thing, ask for permission, or just think about this thing in a way I never thought about it before. Interesting language, by the way, that you said trapped and ask for permission. I wasn't going to go there, but okay. I'm guessing you have felt that way before.

Yeah, I do. Okay.

Do you feel that way now?

No.

Okay. I think that a lot of times many women are not aware that men think about independence and freedom, even as it relates to a person that they love. Here's the thing. Once you get married, you have to find a way to see each other as first and your unit as number one. You can still have some independence. You are still a grown man, grown woman. You need to have your own hobbies and things like that. But the marriage comes first. And I can tell that that is not happening right now because even just now when I asked you, you said, well, to me it wasn't a big deal. Well, I'm not interested in just to you because you're not just a single guy anymore. You are married, and in fact, you are a dad. So we have to completely recalibrate the way you are thinking about money and your relationship. Otherwise, this conversation has to end.

I agree.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah.

So where do you want to go from here?

I want to unite with her.

What do you want to tell her?

I want to apologize with her for not listening to her the way I supposed to before. And then I had to come all the way here to listen to a different person. I'm sorry.

Money is a big deal. That is the reason that you flew all the way here and you are here today. So I appreciate the apology. I appreciate you accepting the apology. Now the question is, can we make some progress on what you both are here for? Shall we try?

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay, I'm in. Alexis, you wrote this in your application. Ramit Sethi, we really need your help to make a realistic plan to buy a home within the next 2 to 3 years. It is both of our dreams to own something in this country. But it feels we may die as renters, godforsaken renters, if we can't get on the same page.

Wow.

First of all, first of all, tell us about this disgusting plague that is renters. Tell us about that.

I, I'm at war with myself about what it means to be a renter. I know Renting is not that bad. There are benefits to renting. But I've fallen in the trap of being a new mom with a baby and wanting a backyard and a picket fence and an SUV.

Wait a minute.

What the fuck?

The baby's 10 months old.

I know, but I'm thinking 10 years down the line. I want another kid. Like, I want space. I think that's what it is, is can I have space and rent? I don't— I just don't see the two together. That sounds so crazy.

And Edwins, do you feel the same way about owning a house?

Yeah. Yeah.

You looking?

Like browsing. Yeah.

All right.

Can we take a look at the numbers? What was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?

We didn't do it together.

Ah, who did it?

No.

You can take a guess.

You did it.

I did it. Yeah, I did.

Why did you not do it together?

He didn't give me answers to his column. So I honestly just guessed. There wasn't really an opening to have a conversation to do it together. So I was just breadcrumbing and putting stuff on the spreadsheet by myself. I think it was just easier to do it by myself, honestly. Because again, I'm the one paying all the bills. I know all the numbers already. So I just put everything out there.

It's got to be frustrating.

A little bit. I'm also a control freak, so I don't mind it.

Oh, you don't?

Honestly.

So what's the problem? Let's wrap it up.

Well, yeah, it's annoying. At times.

That's it? So what? It's got to be more than annoying. It's got to be frustrating that your husband resisted combining accounts until another man came along and said, hey, you should do it. He goes, all right, sounds good. And then the CSP, which has explicit instructions to do it together, and then you couldn't get your husband to do it. Am I blowing this up into something it's not, or are you frustrated at this? Yeah.

Yeah, it is frustrating. It is frustrating.

Why are you not acknowledging your frustration? It comes across in your application very clearly.

I don't want to make him feel guilty. There's a lot of value for him in feeling like the provider, you know, the husband, the man. And I think I want him to have that. And I want to provide that for him or like reinforce that for him. But it is frustrating that, like, I feel like behind closed doors I'm doing that.

Edwin, is that an issue being the provider, the man?

At first I used to feel like that, but now I feel like— I'm not going to say we 50/50, but I can say it's like 45 and 50. Yeah.

45, 55?

No, 45, 55.

For the income?

Yeah. Okay.

And then what about the fact that she's doing all of the work with the money?

I just don't give, um, that much value to what she, she been doing.

Like, oh, that's kind of honest. I never really heard a guy admit that before. Yeah, what if she just stopped?

I'll have to do it myself.

Yeah, why don't you?

I would say, uh, just see it like it's more simple for her.

Oh yeah, simple. She's better at it.

Uh, I'm getting— now I'm getting frustrated.

No, no, really?

Now I'm actually getting frustrated.

Go ahead, tell me.

If I literally stopped paying the bills, which I've done, you don't step in to actually do them. So to say that you'll just— I'll have to do it— you don't. And then the bill doesn't get paid, and then it's late. And then you still don't do it. So then I just do it. So I'd rather you just sit here and I'm sorry that I'm actually getting frustrated. I don't want to like, again, make you feel attacked and defensive. But like, I just, you really don't care. I just feel like you don't care.

I don't really like to be apologizing that much, but I'm sorry, Alexis. I'm sorry.

I think this goes beyond apologizing. Yeah, I actually think if we were to just wrap it up right now, what do you think would happen?

Things will go back to the way they already are.

Yeah. I don't know if you see the dynamic between the two of you, which is Alexis, you have taken on this role of, I'm gonna solve things. I, in many ways, I'm going to be the mother figure, the parent-child dynamic. And he came here from another country. He didn't understand how credit works. So like, I have to do it and explain it. But then when you do, he is resistant in part because of culture, which I respect. Coming to a different culture, American finance is very confusing from the outside, but also an unwillingness to listen. I don't think you are listening to what your wife is saying. Meanwhile, it goes back. You then attempt to comfort him because of this perception you have that the provider— and he needs to be the man in a relationship, and a man needs to not be made to feel guilty. So you say things like, well, I'm actually a control freak, so it's actually not that bad. It's easier for me to do it myself. So I will say what you're doing is actually working. It is working for both of you. Bills get paid. He doesn't have to feel guilty. You don't have to do the stuff you don't want to do because she's paying the bills, and you can send money back, and everybody's doing their thing. So it's working. It's getting you the results that you have built for. It will work until it stops working. And rather than address this, what you have both decided to do is, let's go buy a house. We already got the SUV. Let's go buy a house. How does what I just said strike you?

That petrifies me.

But you're the one who wrote in asking for help to buy a house. There is no universe in which I'm in a dynamic like this and I would go buy a house. No way, right? You know, people who are in relationships that are not working and they go, you know what we need to do? Have a baby. And you watch them on TikTok and you go, what the fuck? But is that not similar to what's happening here?

It's exactly what's happening.

I'm concerned that you're being a little too agreeable with me. You're agreeing with everything. And when that happens, especially for deeply held beliefs, then the minute you walk out of here, everybody goes back to the way they were. I'm concerned. There's so much— we pull one layer apart, there's another layer. Then we pull— there's another layer. And we haven't even gotten to the numbers. Like, when we look at the numbers, there are things that need to change, and they're going to make both of you uncomfortable. But I'm not sure if you are both ready for that. You came a long way to see me. I respect that. If you tell me we want to do this together, I will do it. If you tell me I'm done, I'm done too. So I'm going to propose we take a break. The two of you are gonna have some private time together. Go for a 5-minute walk. Think about what you wanna do. I'm gonna leave the decision up to you. We continue or we don't, but it can't go on like this.

Mm-hmm.

Okay? Yep.

Let's take a break. Honestly, at this point, I was contemplating just ending the podcast because I didn't really know where to go. Every time I asked one question, another layer would come up. And so I ask them to actually step outside and decide if they want to be here and if they want to continue. I don't do this often, but when I ask a couple to step outside and talk about it and decide if they want to come back, what I'm really doing is I am taking the reins that they have invariably handed to me and I am handing them back because I'm not here to save anybody. This conversation, while I may be facilitating or even probing, it's ultimately up to them what they want to do. Either we are here for a reason and we're going to have those hard conversations, or we stop. I don't mind if somebody disagrees with me. I don't mind if they see things differently. But if they tell me what they think I want to hear just so we can wrap this up, why waste the time? And I think that is Edwin's pattern. Agree quickly, make the discomfort go away, move on. But that doesn't work here. That's not what we are here for. And Alexis has her own pattern too. She keeps trying to persuade him to soften the message so that he understands. But she hasn't actually said, this is what I need in this relationship. That's why I asked them to take this break. If they come back, it can't be to keep performing the same conversation. It has to be because they are ready to do the work. When I was thinking about quitting my last job to do I Will Teach You to Be Rich full-time, I created a rule for myself. I couldn't go full-time with IWT until it earned at least as much as my monthly salary for 3 months in a row. And this really helped me take my business seriously. Now, for new business owners, I recommend something similar. And as you are getting set up, I also recommend keeping things simple by using Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, including brands like Mattel and Gymshark. They've got ready-to-go beautiful templates for important things like your website landing pages. Plus they have helpful AI tools to make everyday tasks easier, like generating discount codes and enhancing your product images. It's like having a full marketing team behind you. They've got easy-to-run email and social media campaigns to help you connect with new customers. And everything is in one place. Tackle your inventory, payments, analytics, and more without having to jump from platform to platform. It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/ramitsethi. Go to shopify.com/ramitsethi. That's shopify.com/ramitsethi. If you filed a tax extension this year, I am talking directly to you. Please don't wait until October. I know it feels like it's ages away, but it's going to be here sooner than you think. And taking this time to plan for your taxes is a great opportunity. Don't wait until the last minute to get organized for for your tax extension. Instead, work with Gelt to get a tax strategy in place right now. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year round. They help you think strategically, like how to structure your business, what key deductions might be applicable to you, and how to use the tax code appropriately. Right now, they have two exclusive Q2 offers. The Quick Hit Tax Meeting, a 30-minute call for business owners on extension to identify everything that needs to be done before filing, and the Refundathon, where Gelt will go back through your recent returns and identify deductions you missed. Both of these offers are only open for a limited time. So if you are self-employed or you're a business owner, now is the time to get proactive about your tax strategy. The smartest tax move you can make right now is not waiting until January. Gelt is taking on Q2 clients now, and there may be money from the past year still on the table. Find out if you qualify at joingelt.com/ramitsethi. Hey guys, welcome back.

Thank you.

What did you decide?

We're here and we're ready to play ball.

Okay.

Yep. Cool.

What happened?

We talked.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, we came all this way. We have a goal we really wanna achieve together. I think we just didn't realize how hard it would be to like dig up all our past conversations and past arguments. And yeah.

Yeah.

It's been hard.

OK. I know you said you concerned about once I walk out of here, I might go back to the same thing again. I would say that's not why we're here. We're here to make things better, to work on our future. We want to do better. For us and for our family.

So I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate you really thinking about it. Here's where I want to go. I want to look at the numbers. That's going to help me ground my understanding of what has been going on. I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions about the numbers. If you know them, tell me the answer. If you don't know, tell me that.

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Let's look at the numbers. Um, Alexis, can you read me the word in bold and the number next to it for this entire box, please?

Assets, $12,000. Investments, $44,367. Savings, $5,500. Debt, $26,468. And the total net worth is $35,399.

Okay. What do you think about those numbers?

I think our assets are decent. That's our car. Investments, I'm proud of that. And debt, that's the Jeep.

Okay.

So not bad.

Edwin, what do you think about those numbers?

I think we are not bad, but we can be better.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let's take a look at the income this time. Edwin, can you read me Your combined monthly gross income, please.

10,251.

Okay, 10,251. So you make about, uh, $120,000 per year as a household.

Yeah.

Did you know that?

Yeah.

You knew that, Alexis? Did you know that, Edwin?

No.

No.

Okay, 50%. Thank you for confirming my statistic.

Yeah.

What did you think that your household made?

I was thinking about 80, 80-something.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you make a lot more than that? Yeah, like 30 grand more than that. So what does that tell you?

That I make, uh, good money?

I would say that I make it 40 grand more. Let's continue. By the way, what the hell are all these notes? It's like an essay on the side of the CSP. What is this?

I think those are things that, like, reflections, I guess, I was having as I was putting the numbers there.

Yeah.

I think that's more just me.

Let me just read some of this because this is like, just for everybody not watching but listening, on the CSP, there's like several paragraphs of notes, which is like a description. You have a son and we have a spending plan that helps us achieve our goals. Edwin refuses to combine finances for ego's sake. And then Alexis is frustrated. Edwin is big chilling since he is making big money according to Dominican standards. Edwin, answer the question. Is it true that you are indeed big chilling?

Jesus, I was not expecting that at all.

Yes or no?

Yes or no? Answer the question.

I'll say, uh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Let the record reflect he is indeed big chilling. All right, let's go down to the rest of it. Fixed costs. What's that number right there, Alexis?

71%.

Okay, so that's higher than we typically like to see. Usually like to see it 50 to 60%. Okay. It's at 71. It's high, but we could probably bring that down in some way.

Okay.

Next up we have Investments at 6%. Okay, uh, that includes, uh, $200 a month for the baby, putting some investment aside.

Yeah.

All right, we have savings at 12%, including sending money back to Dominican Republic.

Yeah.

And then finally, guilt-free spending at 11%. Is that number accurate? You spend $1,100 a month on guilt-free spending? Yeah, about eating out, travel, Amazon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these numbers are accurate?

All of them.

Love it. Can I just say, I love the confidence in that answer. All of it. That's what I want to hear. I don't need somebody to know how much they spend on lettuce every month. I don't care. But when I talk to somebody and I ask them their 4 key numbers and then I say, are those numbers accurate? You better say All of it.

Mm-hmm.

That means you know your numbers. That is impressive. Well done. Okay. If this is the case, at 71%, what does this conscious spending plan tell you?

I think we really try to balance between short-term and long-term fun. So savings is really important, but guilt-free spending is also as important. I think investments is something that I think we're both trying to learn better. So that's why it's a little bit lower, but definitely something that I really want to improve on as well.

So I would say your word is balance. Yeah, we are balanced. Okay, Edwin, what about you?

Um, I'm— I have learned a lot from her when it comes to that. She enjoy more being out and stuff like that, but me, I'm like more home person. But I do spend a lot and like more eating, and I'll be spending money on food.

Okay, so that's where you see your expenses.

Yeah. And also, also personal stuff like clothes and shoes.

Where's that? Um, clothes here, I see $150 a month.

Okay.

And that would be shoes as well?

Yeah, yeah. Let's include shoes.

All right. But it's interesting that when I asked what does the CSP tell me about you as a couple, I heard balance. And then from you, I heard I like to buy shoes and eat. And I think what you're probably noticing is like this recurring pattern you have of answering as a single guy. Yeah, I'm not interested. Can I just tell you, like, we have two people right here. We have Edwin's the single guy and Edwin's the married man. I'm actually not here to talk to Edwin's a single guy. Okay, so can we— yeah, yeah, get rid of him.

My bad.

All right, talk to me as Edwin's the married husband and father.

I would say we try to have balance for everything.

Does anybody want to make a change to this? You want to make a change, Alexis. If you could change anything, what would it be?

Bring our fixed costs down. Mm-hmm. And if we can't bring it down, then at least let's divide it up a little bit more equitably.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So speaking of the equity of this, let's look at the income. Ah, what's going on with the income here? One person is making $10,251 a month. Who's that? That's you, Alexis. Edwin's, what's your income? Also, why is it not on here?

He doesn't know.

Oh, the thing is, uh, I didn't check my, my pay stub stuff before I come here, but I would say, let's say if I said how much I make, uh, every 2 weeks. Yeah, can we get to that?

Maybe, but I don't really want to do the math. Oh, you knew you were gonna get your ass roasted. Coming here, right? You knew it. Like, it's— you couldn't even pull out your pay stub. Honestly, like, walking in here, you're lucky this is all you've gotten. I'm tempted to tear your ass apart. Can't even pull up your gross income? That's the easiest question of today. You knew it was gonna happen, right?

Yeah.

Okay, enough said. I don't need to belabor the point. You have your net, which I think is because that's how much comes into the account.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. All jokes aside, this is the kind of thing where if y'all want to take it to the next level to be connected, like, this is actually the simplest thing of all. Pulling off a pay stub, we shouldn't even be talking about it. Yeah, we should be far beyond that. Cool. So I'm trying to set a standard for what we do together because this is easy, right? This should be done, and we have more complex things to tackle. All right, all right. So your take-home pay is $4,000, Edwin.

Yeah.

Okay. And the net income for you, Alexis, is about $6,000. Cool. $6,000, $4,000, roughly $10,000 take home. $10,000 take home, but your gross is $10,251. Oh, 'cause you didn't— okay, y'all see what's going on here? This is probably more like, I don't know, I'm picking a number. Don't get mad at me 'cause I'm wildly wrong, but it's something. $6,000, which means your gross income is like $16,000 a month. Yeah, that's a lot more money.

That's how much you make before taxes.

Yeah, per month.

Yeah, biweekly is times 2.

Wait, if I'm— yeah, $6,000.

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, I don't know what your gross income is, but I know that it's like at least $150,000. So considering, Edwin, that you thought you were making 80, you're probably making double that. Then that's kind of shocking, right? Where's the money? Yeah, if we're making all this money, where is it? I would be pissed.

Not at her, not myself. Yes, we don't see the money.

You only see what's in your account and then you transfer over. You don't have a unified view of your money. How can you see it if you don't all look at it?

Wow.

So the two of you make $120,000 net. That's after tax, which means you make, God knows, but $150,000, $160,000, something like— it's a lot of money. So your fixed cost is 71%. Let's just go through them real quick. Your rent is $1,875. That's pretty low. Small place, but quite low. 12% of net. That's amazing. If it were me, I'd be like, don't move. Stay there for as long as you can. What's going on right now? You're confused.

Yeah, I'm kind of confused because— did you do that right?

Because of course I did. This is how I know you don't know our numbers, because yeah, this is all right.

12% of gross. Yeah, for your household, not net. Gross is amazing. And you're like, why is this guy saying amazing? I don't feel amazing, right?

Yeah. Okay, let's see how I'm feeling. I'm just being honest.

That— I, I respect that.

Yeah.

Two things. Number one, your feelings are often not the same as the actual numbers. Yeah, that's very common. You know how many multi-millionaires I talk to and they go, I don't have enough, Ramit, I'm not wealthy, I'm actually just slightly making it by a—

shut up.

You're wealthy. Oh, their feelings are out of touch with reality, probably the same way yours are.

Yeah.

Okay, next we gotta go through each of them so you understand.

Yeah, maybe at the end I might be open. Yeah.

All right, listen up. Utilities, $170. Fine. Insurance, $1,043. Is that a lot?

Health insurance? Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, it is what it is. Okay, can't do anything about that. Next up, uh, car payment, $630. That's the Jeep?

Yeah.

How long until that's paid off?

Hopefully like less than 10 years.

What?

No, actually no, I think it was a 7-year loan.

7 years?

You got a 7-year loan on a car? What? Why?

The payment was decent.

What's the payment every month?

Like $477.

Oh, it's not bad, but it is 7 years. What's the interest rate, just out of curiosity?

Like 7%.

All right, y'all got ripped off.

That might include insurance though.

You all got ripped off, but you walked into it. You bought this cool Jeep. It's so fucking cool and sucks, but you have it, so you can't do anything about it. Let's move on. It could be worse. Baby. This includes diapers, clothes, and daycare.

Okay.

I was like, diapers cost $1,600 a month.

That's included.

Okay, so this is going to go on for a while.

Yeah.

All right, fine. Groceries at $400? That's it? I don't believe that.

No, I would say for the, for the grocery, we can say $600. That's $600. Yeah.

All right, that's going to change things considerably. Watch this, watch this number up here. 71%, that just jumped to 74%. Not so rosy anymore. Clothes, I know it's not $100 for you. How much is it per month?

Clothes? Yeah, let's say at least, um, Um, 300.

Let's add more to that because I can tell by your answer it's more. 500.

Oh, Jesus.

The number now, you're at 79% fixed cost. Is that reasonable, by the way? 500 a month? I think it is. Clothes, you go out and buy 2 shirts.

That hat, you love hats.

Keep it 400.

Great. 400. Phone is $40 total. Is that right? Someone's paying $15 a month for their phone?

Sure. I'm paying—

You?

Yeah.

How?

It's a promotion.

How long does that last for?

5 years.

What? Drop the company.

Visible.

Visible, guys.

Visible, get in touch.

Visible's fantastic.

I'm giving you a free promo right now. That's amazing. I thought you'd say like, oh, it's good for a month. I was like, oh no, 5 years?

5 years.

Okay, cool. Subscriptions. How much are you paying in subscriptions, Edwin?

60, I would say, because between the gym and my phone and that's it, 60.

No, the phone doesn't count.

How much is your gym?

I pay like 300 for the whole year. Yeah, yeah.

All right, that's pretty reasonable. Let's leave this at 40, which it was. And then we have miscellaneous, which is stuff you have not counted. We always add in 15% miscellaneous for stuff. In this case, it's $1,000 a month, which is a lot of money. I want to point out that you're at 77% fixed costs. Now let's give some context. I don't mind higher fixed costs if you have lower guilt-free spending. Some people are like, I want to live in a nicer place. It's important to me. We're going to eat out less. That's totally up to you. In your case, you— that's effectively what you have done.

Mm-hmm.

But you're overspending because, look, it now only allows you $438 a month. For guilt-free spending, and I know you're spending more than that.

Yeah.

So what has happened here is you're actually spending more. Are you drawing into your savings? Have you noticed your savings are going down? That's why.

Yeah.

And I will point out one other thing, which is you'll have a super cheap rent. So if I see a super cheap rent, that means that I'm like, oh, this fixed cost entire category should probably be pretty low because rent is the hardest thing to bring down for people. Yeah, but you have a super cheap rent, but then you have all these other expenses. And like childcare, for example, unavoidable, but that's really expensive. So y'all could do it, but it doesn't leave you a lot of extra money.

I think, um, we have to spend less, especially for our uh, personal stuff. Okay. And then, um, save more, I would say.

Let's look at savings.

Yeah.

So right now your savings are at 12%. Not bad, 12%. I like to see that number 5 to 10%, but like, if you make more, considering the two of you make more than the average person, I like to see that number up because you can afford to save more. So 12 is good. I wouldn't mind if it was like 15.

Okay.

I'm looking at your investments at 6%. Mm. A little low in my opinion. You have $44,000. Have you calculated how much you will have in the future?

I feel like I did that a year ago. I haven't done it recently.

And what did you end up with?

Close to a million. Okay.

Is it enough?

No.

Hell no.

Yeah, not at all.

So how come there's no focus on increasing that number?

I feel like I'm pinching. Mm. Right now.

Have you talked about this with Edwin?

We don't talk about retirement. That's not even a conversation right now. I just got him to open up a 401 with his current employer. So that took a lot of, like, educating and explaining.

Yeah.

And so we haven't even really gotten into it.

What's happening here is way bigger than just a pay stub. Alexis is not just managing the bills. She's also trying to teach Edwin how money works in a country he didn't grow up in. And that includes concepts like credit cards, 401s, joint accounts. All of these things might seem obvious to you if you were raised around them, but they're not obvious to everyone. So I want to give Edwin some grace. It is hard enough to learn an entirely new financial system while also becoming a husband, a father, building a life in a new country. Now, I'll give him grace, but that doesn't mean he gets to opt out of this process. 'Cause right now Alexis is carrying the numbers and the planning and the worrying. She's taken it all on herself. And if they want to be a real financial team, he's got to stop seeing money as something that she is in charge of and start seeing it as something that they own together. Does it feel weird to have to learn about money from your wife?

Um, It does. But at the same time, I feel like I feel good with it because I have learned a lot from her.

And then when she will talk about, like, for example, a 401, she's like, hey, you should open one up. What's your reaction to that?

I say yes, because I, of course, I want to have my retirement too.

Cool.

Yeah.

All right. You have money being set aside for this house. Can you just clarify that for me?

We really want to own something.

Mm-hmm.

We've only rented for 2 years. And again, I've also just lived with my parents before we were married. So I really haven't even lived on my own long enough. But I feel like the money that we're spending on rent doesn't feel worth it. Mm-hmm. And I feel like if I was to own something and have space, it just— I feel like I'm actually spending my money on something of value. And so that's what I'm saving for. Got it.

And the way that you are saving for a house is you're looks like you're putting money in an investment account.

Partially.

And I also have a high interest or high yield savings account.

Okay. So I see $400 a month going to retirement taxable account.

Right.

Which includes your Roth IRA and house fund.

Right.

And I see a long-term emergency fund of $600 a month.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then there's another question I had on savings. Edwin, it says sending money back to Dominican Republic for family support. Tell me about that.

Um, I do that every, every two, two weeks. I send— sometime I might send $260 if my son— I have another son back home. Okay. If he needs like something, a little toy or something, but normally it's $200.

Okay, so $200 every two weeks or $400 a month?

Yeah.

Okay. Any issue with that?

None.

So far, no. So far.

That was a non-negotiable from the beginning. I understood it and it made sense. So we always factor that into like a bill.

Was there something I read in the application or something about like if you combine money, then you're concerned that she is going to check on your, how much money you're sending back?

Yeah, that was like my personal saving. I wanted to, I was like concerned about that because I feel like she was digging too much. Okay.

Uh, no, it doesn't sound like it.

I was just scared, like, uh, to, to have my little savings on the side. Like, I feel like she would have a problem with that, and then that was my concern.

Was it a real concern?

Yes. I told you, everything come up to my head, and when I switch up, when you started making a lot more money.

Yeah, yeah. I was like, it's kind of weird, like, you started making a lot more money and then it seems like you became very protective.

No, it's not protective. Like The way she react, I wish I recall the moment when she is like, oh, you finally gonna be making money. Like, you might change, things might change. I said, oh. And then I was like, wow, why she's reacting like that?

But can I tell you, like, if my partner was not making money for a long time, yeah, okay, and I was like covering a bunch of expenses, and then suddenly she got a good job and she started making a lot more money. First of all, I'd be really excited for her. Congratulations, let's celebrate. And then I would also be like, let's talk about it. Like, we gotta have some of that money come towards the family.

Yeah, right. But I was not, um, against that. I was— but I— that's how she— I would— I was, I was always telling her, if you really want to know who you have with you, that's where you prove it, to see if I'm going to contribute with Yeah, things in the house.

Like, I'm not into that.

Are you not into it?

Can I tell you, I, I respect that that is how you feel. Yeah. I wonder how much of that comes from the way you grew up.

Yeah.

That idea you have of, now that I'm making money, instead of me contributing to the family, you need to watch me because I need to prove to you that I'm not bad. That is not congruent with a high-earning family. Like, that's not how a couple that makes $160,000 talks.

Yeah, yeah.

They don't even think that way. And what I'm trying to do here is to show you— I have earned low amounts of money and I've earned high amounts of money, and I want to meet you where you are and show you how a couple that makes the kind of money you do at your age thinks and acts. I need you to know that, okay?

Yeah.

You're sending money back to DR? Great. It's not a problem. Great. You're saving money for a house. Okay, we can talk about that. You are overspending every month. That is clear. So we need to figure that out as well. Can I ask a little bit about how you each grew up with money? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were a kid?

They'll be fighting all the time. Like, we need to buy this, we need to buy that. We don't have enough. You have to go work extra somewhere. You need to find out because my dad was a painter, and then my mom just doing braids because— and but they used to make, uh, money, but, uh, at the same time they'll be always arguing, arguing that they did not have enough. Yeah, they wouldn't.

And who was saying that?

My dad.

Your dad was saying that to your mom?

Yeah.

So he was telling— your dad was telling your mom, yeah, you're not making enough.

Yeah.

And then what, what did you say?

And then my mom would be, uh, fighting him back.

So what did they do?

You want me to tell you the truth? Yeah, they're still fighting.

They're still fighting?

Yeah, because of money. Wow, they're still fighting.

You think they like it?

And they're still together, they're still going through the same problems. Uh, last thing I did when we filed our taxes, I talked to her and I said, I said, baby, I need one, I need $1,000 just to solve, uh, little bills that they have back home, because I know they, they were crying about it all the time, just to not hear in the phone call, or, can you help me with these? And blah blah. I say, baby, just please borrow me that, and then I'm just gonna fix that problem back home so I can be in peace.

What similarities do you see between your parents and what's going on right here?

Money arguing?

Yeah. How long you been fighting about money?

Since we got together. Yes. Yeah.

And your parents have been married how many decades?

Ooh, they've been together at least for 38 years.

40 years.

Yeah.

Y'all been together 2 years. You want to fight for the next 38 years?

No, that's not our plan.

Oh, really?

No.

Okay, good, because that sucks.

Yeah, that's— that's— we've seen too much. We've seen too much.

It is amazing to me that, you know, I meet a lot of people who grow up with parents who fought about money all the time, and then they're in exactly the same situation, and they don't go like, I'm sick of this, sick enough to make a change. They just go, it's kind of annoying, and like, I wish my wife would do this or my husband would do that. They don't say, I'm so sick of this, I'm gonna find a way to put an end to it. I could see you guys easily going on 40 years and fighting about money.

Dang, don't curse us.

It's not a curse, it's just reality.

Jesus.

There is no, there is no changes you have made on your own that would prevent you from fighting about money. I'm not trying to be a hard-ass. I'm trying to tell you what I see. You came to ask. In fact, if anything, the two of you have moved further apart with your money. As you started to earn more, Edwin, the two of you have moved further apart.

Yeah, uh, I can say that compounds.

Over debt, soon it's impossible to get out of it.

Yeah.

So there's that. And then this, um, this sort of like idea of roles and like man and woman, that's present here as well. I'm pointing this out because a lot of times we do things, we don't even know why we're doing it, but it's because that's what we saw growing up.

You're right.

And I think, you know, there are cultures where a man handles money and a woman does not. There are cultures. Yeah, there are also cultures where it's the opposite. Man makes the money, brings the paycheck home, gives it to his wife, she handles it for the entire family. Now you all can decide what culture, what practices you want to adopt. You decide.

I guess that's what I was trying to do with her, but you were trying to do that, right? Yeah.

Okay, so can I ask you, like The way you were raised, does the man make money and then give it to the wife?

That's how it works.

Okay.

Because at home, back home, it's like if I'm married to her, she'll be— if she wants to work, she can work. But mostly the men don't allow the women to work. It's like she would be home taking care of the kids and the man would be the one who makes the money and provides for the house. Okay. Yes.

Were you aware of this?

Yeah, absolutely.

And so when Edwin says he was trying to make money and then bring it back and basically give it to you, do you see it that way?

Yeah, I do. But I also think, again, we're in a relationship where the first 2 years of us being together was long distance. I was flying to DR to meet with him and spend time, and then I would go back home so that there was no need for him to send me any money. And then when he ended up coming here on the visa, we were engaged, he lived with me. I was managing everything because he couldn't legally work in the States. So there was never a time where he even— he had to do that, nor could he do that. So that just wasn't our story.

Do you feel like it kind of just glided into where you are today?

I did.

Okay. Like there was no, okay, let's turn the page on this chapter. Let's all sit down. Things have changed. We're married, right? Let's adapt our accounts. It was just like, okay, we're married and keep doing what we're doing.

Exactly.

It was like that.

Yeah. Okay, that's common. It's very common. But we can make a change.

Mm-hmm.

Let me tell you what gives me hope with Alexis and Edwins. They have a high income that actually solves a lot of financial problems because they have a high income and low housing costs. They have put themselves in a position where they can fix a couple of things that need fixing. But you know what worries me? It's not about the income. They could double their income. And it would still worry me the way that they talk to each other, the way that they do not yet truly see themselves as a unit, but they both see themselves independently. And in fact, when they talk, they fight, they jab. It would be hard enough if the two of them were born in the same country, state, even same city. They would have a shared culture. They have a different culture. And so that is going to take some time and a lot of conversation to bridge. They have hard work ahead of them. There's no doubt about that. But they can do it if they are united as a team and they go through it knowing both of them have a plan and they're doing their very best. One of my readers shared with me an account of somebody who can find other people's Instagram accounts with as little information as possible. For example, HerRecord is finding someone based on 3 facts. He lived in Brooklyn, he had brown hair, and he went to her gym. They didn't even know the guy's name. They still figured out who he was. And this is another reason that I pay for and use DeleteMe. If this person can find somebody's account using just 3 pieces of information, just imagine what scammers and data brokers can do to you. DeleteMe is a subscription service that removes your personal data from the internet. We're talking about things like your full name, email, phone number, address, even your parents' names, all found and removed. They've been the leading expert in personal information removal for the last 15 years. They were recently named Wirecutter's number one data removal service. And I personally use and pay for DeleteMe, and I love it, and I know you will too. You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to joindeleteme.com/ramitsethi. /ramit and use promo code Ramit at checkout. That's joindelete.me.com/ramit, code Ramit for 20% off. Have you ever set a standard for what you expect in your relationship?

I set a standard for us to have to do therapy. It lasted a little while.

How long?

I think 2 or 3 months.

Okay.

And then fell off. I'm not the best with accountability. Mm-hmm. I also think I'm not the most consistent.

Mm-hmm.

He tells me that all the time. So I think when I'm not consistent, I can't hold anyone else to a standard to be consistent. Sometimes I feel like guilty for that. So then I think to hold you to a standard, that I can't meet myself just feels inconsistent, um, and pointless.

That's pretty honest. Do you know why I asked the question?

Probably because he gets to do whatever he wants.

When I talk to both of you, what I hear is you're making way more money than you realized, like tens of thousands of dollars. I actually think your CSP looks pretty good. Like, I'm pretty impressed. Especially having a young baby, childcare expenses. Like, honestly, it's pretty good. Your rent is super low. You made a couple decisions I wouldn't have made with the Jeep, but it's not horrible. You're saving, you're investing, your income just went up a lot. That's amazing. And like, you're so close to— if we're on a boat, both of you picking up the oars and starting to row together and moving so fast, so fast, accumulating so much, living a great life. But every time it comes into picture, like, oh, okay, let's pick up the oars, let's go together, you're derailed. One of you derails each other, you derail yourself. You're just not ready to operate as a team.

Since we've been here, sitting here and everything, from your perspective, you see we can do it?

Yes, I have no doubt about that.

Alexis?

I mean, I believe that too, but I just— I feel like I've been here before. I've met with financial advisors. I've done like the— my job has like the employee assistance people that you can have a couple sessions with. I've done all this, the coaching. I've read the books. I run the numbers.

And finish the sentence.

And nothing's turned into, like, a consistent habit yet. Nothing's, like, sustainable, it feels like.

So therefore, finish the sentence.

I go back to where I started.

Do you believe this is going to change?

Yeah.

You do?

I don't think you do.

I hope it does. I hope it does. I doubt it. Yeah, I doubt it a little.

I don't think you believe it can change. That's what the end of that sentence was. I've been here before, we've tried it, dot, dot, dot. So I don't believe that we can change. What's going on right now is actually one of the key issues, which is I'm telling you, you all are so close You have a pretty good CSP, but you derail yourself. And then what happens? Each of you played your part. Edwin goes, but do you think we can do it? Basically looking for external validation from a guy. Do you think we can do it? Not asking me, what can I, Edwin, change? What are the 3 things I, Edwin, need to do right now? Nope. Just, Ramit, do you think we can do it? Because once you say yes, then I can walk out of here happy because she heard it and I don't need to convince her anymore. That's your role. That's the role you're playing. Don't disagree with me. Listen, you can disagree with me in a minute. I just want you to hear me.

Okay.

Then the role you played, Alexis, was I've been here before and I've tried all these things and I don't believe we can change. Yo, I can't win against that. It's actually not my place to convince you that you can change. That's not my role. I'm not interested in it. I don't do it. Only you can make this change. Not me, not some, uh, financial advisor. Only you two. So what do you want to do?

What we can do to change?

What do you even need to change? Do you even know?

I'm ready to cut back on things that I think I'm wasting my money on. If I'm spending too much on guilt-free spending and using my credit card, as you say, recklessly or whatever, I, I can stop doing that. I can set limits. I can set budgets.

I appreciate that you're willing to make a change. That's cool. I think what you just said was kind of a reaction to Edwin's. Like, you know and I know what he said about credit cards is wrong. It's flat out wrong. Why would you say like, I'm willing to like reduce my credit card spend. Why? If someone says there's something that's point blank wrong, I'm not going to agree with them and then bend over backwards to make them feel better. That's not going to get you where you need to go.

I feel like I appease you when it doesn't really make sense to me or financially. But if it strokes your ego in that moment, then my hope is that you'll listen to me when I make the next financial decision or make some type of a change. So if I have to stop using my credit card just to get you to think that I'm being financially responsible, then when I ask you for money for something later, or I need to pay a bill later, or I want your buy-in on some financial decision together, you're more likely to say yes because— it sounds so manipulative and like stupid, but—

You know the worst part? It doesn't even work.

I know.

Do you even understand what she just said? Yeah, it's crazy.

You got what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah.

What did she say?

She's just trying to be on my side when it's, it's not the reality.

Yes, that was quite insightful, Alexis, that you do all these games to appease him in the hope that he will agree with you, and it, in my opinion, doesn't even work.

Yeah.

What if you all could stop like playing all these dances and games and actually like focus on rowing in the same direction together? Wouldn't it be so much more energy put towards a goal. If you wanna buy a house, you wanna save money, you wanna invest, wouldn't that be better use?

Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

This idea, you mentioned it offhandedly just a second ago where you said, I feel the need to get his buy-in so that when I ask him for money, why should you have to ask for money? In what world does a husband and wife have to ask each other for money? Why do you allow yourself to be put in that position?

I didn't ask to be in that position. I thought being married would mean I wouldn't have to do that.

You thought that being married meant you would automatically— the money would be combined.

Yeah.

Well, it's not. So what are you going to do about it? I mean, your answer has been to please.

Yeah.

Every month. Come on, please. It's not enough. Okay, next month, please. That doesn't work. And actually, it makes no sense. Aren't you the higher earner as well?

That's even— that's the worst part.

It's a little ironic here.

Yeah, that's the worst part.

What is a different approach to beseeching to asking, begging? What's a different approach?

If it's a shared pot that we're both pulling from, hey babe, I'm gonna take care of this bill. It's coming out of the account in case you see it. That's it.

Okay. Do you think that I begged my wife to buy in to our finances?

No, Ramit Sethi.

What'd I do?

Probably had a conversation about it.

Many.

Yeah.

Like thousands. But what else?

I think go through the numbers together to see what the amounts are looking like. Budget it out. Maybe set like a consistent monthly, weekly.

Yes.

However, transfer.

And did I beg her to please meet with me and please transfer? No. What did I do? I set an expectation.

Okay.

This is what we do as a couple.

Yeah.

This is important. This is how it works. Now I'm going to tell you my view. You don't have to agree with all of it. I'm totally open to 95% changing all this stuff. This 5%, I'm not open to changing it. This is how it has to be. We have to have savings every single month. That's a non-negotiable for us as a couple. We have to invest. That's a non-negotiable for us as a couple. You have to have your own account. That's a non-negotiable for us as a couple. We each have our own accounts. But all the rest of it, if we hit those few things, this is how I think we should do it, but I'm open to what you think. What's the difference in the energy and the attitude?

It's direct. There's no wiggle room.

I'm not asking, you're telling. Yeah, yeah. I feel like, uh, telling gets a bad name. Oh, we need to ask everything. You all want to have 5,000 buy-in check-ins with your coworkers. No, sometimes you just tell them, this is how it's done. And look, you could disagree. Here's the areas I'm open to discussion, but these ones I'm not. This is how it works. You show up for work, and as a partner, you show up for money. When was the last time you had a conversation like this?

The last time I think I told you I need money too.

It was when you were on the trip. It was like for the electricity that you end up paying when you came back.

Yeah, you told him to pay for electricity. And then did you?

I didn't.

He did not.

Because, uh, the thing is, I didn't know.

I don't care about the reasons why you didn't do it.

Yeah, I didn't.

And then what was the consequence of that?

It was late, and then I paid it.

It doesn't seem like a consequence at all. Seems amazing if I'm in his position. Oh, I didn't have to do this annoying thing, and then she came home. That's not a consequence.

It's just not a consequence. Yeah.

You ever said a consequence?

That feels so motherly. No, I don't even— I think the consequence is the argument.

I can't think of anything more motherly. What Didn't you say something in your application? In fact, I'm gonna read it to you.

Jesus.

You wrote, we are living paycheck to paycheck and it kills our intimacy when he is focused on how much we spent on a date night. And I'm just trying to hit home base, if you know what I mean. What kills intimacy more than being a mother or father figure?

Yeah.

Y'all are worried about something that is already here. How are we feeling right now? Because I'm actually feeling a little uncertain. How are you feeling about what's going on right now?

Emotionally, I feel really angry, frustrated right now, but I feel like that's pushing me to just want to change it. Like, I don't want to sit in this.

Ramit Sethi, I know you have said that a lot, like, I have to hear from another man to change my lifestyle. But if listening and learning from another man to be better at home for my family is gonna make me change, yes, I want to listen to.

Okay, I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate that.

And I want to change my lifestyle.

Okay. Yes, I appreciate it.

Maybe, maybe I was needing that little push to see things clear. From you, from her. Uh, I'm taking this as an opportunity.

Good.

To do better. That's what I want. Yeah.

Now I appreciate that. I'm glad. Actually, hearing from both of you on how you're feeling right now is really helpful for me because honestly, I feel a little combative. I don't want to. I don't want to. Like, and it's funny because your CSP is pretty good. What I'm feeling as I pull on one thread, I hear another layer and then another layer. And I wonder if you would be okay with me just being very direct with you.

Yes, be direct, please. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. I think that I have a lot of respect for you coming to the US in a different culture and going through you know, a long-distance relationship, then not being able to work, then getting a job at Target, and then getting this much higher paying job. Like, tons of respect. Incredible. I have a lot of respect for what that also took for you in helping somebody come to the US and realizing, like, the things that we take for granted if we're born somewhere, like, it's actually not obvious to people. A lot of things that anybody does in any country are quite confusing to somebody who's not from the country.

Okay.

With that said, you are married. You have a 10-month-old.

Yeah.

It's time to get this shit locked in. And right now, the dynamic here needs radical change. If you do that, you could actually live an amazing life. What does it take? Right now, the two of you are not acting like partners. We have a parent-child dynamic. You're mom. You're the sort of adolescent son who just lets her handle everything for you. And the way that this manifests is in so many different ways. Alexis, you are constantly coming up with different ways of trying to reach him, to try to placate his emotions. And you have these stories about he needs to be a man and feel better. And if I do XYZ, ABC, 123, then maybe he will finally see it my way. And you don't realize you've been playing the whole wrong game the whole time. Edwin, from your perspective, why would you change? You just started making a lot more money, and, you know, I don't want her to meddle too much in my money because she's only asking now, not before. And anyway, combining money, I don't know, that feels like I'm going to get looked over my shoulder. And anyway, things are fine. I send my money and it all works out. And if the utility bill doesn't get paid, she comes and takes care of it. Guys, this doesn't get you anywhere. You're just stuck here. You— if I checked in with you 10 years from now, you'll be in exactly the same position. Exactly. It's the same cycle your parents are in.

Wow.

So there is a way to change it, but it involves radically reconceptualizing the relationship here. Alexis, you are no longer the mother. You are no longer responsible for fixing the money in the relationship. You set the expectations. Here's what I expect. I expect that we have a joint account and that both of our incomes are going towards it. Then from there, our bills are paid, and then the savings and all that stuff, just like in Money for Couples. And then a little bit of money is sent to each of our accounts every month. That is my expectation. Next up, I expect our savings rate to be this. I expect this. I expect that. I'm open and willing to talk about it if you have a different opinion. Bring it. If you're not sure what some of this stuff is, let's talk about it. But these are my expectations. And then you have to be willing to do the hardest thing, which is ask yourself, what will you do if Edwin does not follow through? What are the consequences? Because in the utility case, he didn't learn anything. In fact, if anything, he learned not to do it because you're going to come and save the day again. What would a natural consequence of that have been?

Let the bill be passed due? Yeah.

And then past you and past you until eventually the power is off. Now the question is, are you going to allow yourself to do that?

I can—

yeah, I mean, yeah, I will.

Okay.

And then for Edwin to know this is his responsibility, that means that the two of you, when your money is joint, which needs to happen immediately, then you decide here is who owns what. You cannot be responsible for all this. It's actually disempowering to him. You've got to hear her suggestions. And if you agree, great, do it. If not, you can speak up as well. You have control. You're a partner. But you've got to take on a lot of this as well. Then the two of you can start looking at your money together. You can look at your actual accurate CSP. You can say, wait a second, right now, if we just fast forward, we're not going to have enough to retire. We need to start putting money aside for that more. Hey, right now, if we want to get a house, it's going to take us 18 years to save for a house. I don't want to wait that long. We got to put more money here. We got to cut money here. But like, we can go through all these exercises, but it's kind of pointless unless the two of you actually start behaving as partners. That's my direct feedback. What do you think?

I can do that.

Yeah, that's perfect.

That's it? It's easy?

I didn't say it was easy.

Yeah, it's, it's doable. It sounds—

yeah, yeah, it's doable.

I think it's gonna be an uphill battle for me to just again accept the fact that I can't save him from himself. Um, because again, that just reinforces the idea that I'll come in and save him every time. So I, I need to stop that, and I will.

Um, I want to be there, uh, 50/50 with her. I wanna learn how to pay the bills and everything, and so we can be, we can be good.

That's good. I appreciate that. It's great.

And all I want is to be 50/50. I just I wanna feel like I have a partner. So I'm like, if you're able to carry half the load, I can carry my 50% and not complain about it. Like, that's fine.

Alexis, what do you remember about your childhood when it came to money? What did your family used to say?

So many things. I like just realized recently that I think I've been through a lot of financial trauma with my mom specifically. Just like our dynamic, she's the breadwinner in my parents' relationship. But it wasn't always that way. I guess before she had my siblings and I, my dad was the breadwinner. When she had kids, she ended up being a stay-at-home mom and he was working and making money. He, for the most part, would give money to friends and family, would go on trips, fund all the family vacations and stuff like that. And then mom found out that he, I guess was funneling money through an organization. There was a lawsuit. She found out all this stuff was happening under her nose and she had no idea. So there was, like, a lot of trust that was broken between the two of them. Mom started becoming the breadwinner at a certain point. She would throw that in his face a lot. So they were always fighting about money in the house and, like, saying, "You're not a man 'cause I'm doing this and you can't provide for the kids," and blah, blah, blah. So I was always seeing that. Then my dad lost his job when I was in like high school. My mom threw that in his face for years. And then he ended up having like open heart surgery and then just stopped working from there. And my mom took over everything and was resentful, but like still did everything. And now they're getting a divorce.

Now?

Now.

Why now?

Well, there's infidelity, stuff like that. But financial stuff was obviously always brewing underneath all of that. So now they're getting a divorce and it's really nasty. So that scares me. And I'm— all that's happening while we're raising a child, we're living together, we want to buy a house. And I'm just— I have no one to like look to for support because my mom is like, you're the woman, you got to take care. Don't let a man be the reason why you have bad credit. So if he doesn't pay something, you better get in there and take care of it.

It's a lot.

Yeah.

It's interesting you mentioned you just realized you grew up with financial trauma. It sounds like you've gone through a huge amount of it.

I didn't, I didn't know there was a word for it.

Yeah.

So that word, I was like, oh, that's what this is. Yeah.

And, um, have you seen an individual therapist?

Yes.

Okay. And the, the couples therapist that you saw, that lasted for a while and then it stopped. Why?

She's actually my personal therapist.

Okay.

So she— we did couple sessions together, um, and it was helpful. I think it was mainly around just parenting. That's what our primary focus was in therapy, we never really got into all of this.

Got it. And this is similar to your profession as well, right?

Yeah, I'm a therapist.

You're a therapist as well? Yes, I am.

Yes, crazy.

What do you make of that?

I feel like such a hypocrite.

Because?

Because I, I don't practice what I preach all the time. So?

Sometimes I don't either. I didn't talk to my wife till too late about money. That was my bad. I dropped the ball on meetings while I was writing my book on money for couples. I've done many things that were hypocritical or contradictory to my own teachings. That's human. It's not great, but it's human. So what's the end of the sentence for you? You feel like a hypocrite, so?

So I feel like I just let that be my story sometimes.

Got it. Can I tell you what mine was? I feel like a hypocrite, so I'm gonna fix it.

Yeah.

And that's what I did.

Yeah.

Like, when she pointed it out to me, hey, you, you've dropped the ball in these meetings and you would never do that at work, so why is it okay that you do that for our meeting? I was like, oh, like, uh, explosion here and here. And I was like, I'll fix this. Give me a week. I need to find out why I haven't been doing this. And then I fixed it. What's the difference?

I don't take that initiative.

Yeah, you're letting this stuff destroy you and you're just sitting there. Yeah, y'all can actually make a lot of mistakes in life.

You will.

But the key is you got to fix them. You got to acknowledge them and fix them. And right now it's like you make a mistake or something happens that's not working, and then you just go, ah, I suck. It's not the way forward. So what if you were to be like, oh, I'm a hypocrite, and so I'm going to fix it? What would you do?

I mean, I'd set the standard.

What does that mean? Just feel a little heavy.

Yeah, it does. I'm like going back years now.

I don't know, just from watching your body language right now, even like your facial expressions, it feels like you're in the process of just like beating yourself up for like 15 years of stuff. Am I reading that right?

Yeah.

What if we just didn't do that? What if we just did it a totally different way? What if you— step 1 of 3 was give myself some grace?

I hear that phrase all the time. I hear that phrase all the time.

You do? Where do you hear it?

In therapy.

Okay, it's good. Must have a very good therapist.

My God, I hate crying.

Take all the time you need.

Because I don't get grace, so I don't even know how to give it sometimes. Like, I just don't get it. I don't get it from my mom. I don't get it from family. I have so many high expectations that I don't even— that I can't meet, so I don't even know how to set them. Like, it's just, this is like such hard stuff to like unlearn.

Yes.

That I don't know where to start. Like, I really don't know where to start. And I've tried starting, like, that's the thing. I feel like I always get this big motivation to be like, I wanna do things different. I'm gonna be the one to break generational curses. And then I feel cursed. And then I'm right back to feeling all woe is me and pitiful. And I don't wanna be that. And I have a kid, so I really don't want to be that. And I don't want him to be that either.

You know, you took one step. Look where you are. You had to get on a plane.

Yeah.

Get in front of these cameras. We have had a very challenging conversation today, right?

Yeah.

Yo, I sent you outside to talk. I didn't know if you're gonna come back. So let me just say, you have taken several steps and I know how difficult it can be. Put yourself in the therapy chair, and I have a family or others that are not only not supportive, but they bring me back down every time I try to do something. In fact, when I try to do something, they go, who you— you're so trying to be big, too big for your britches. And so what do I— what do I have to do? Because every time I try to take one step forward, they pull me two steps back. What do I do?

Surround yourself with people who you want to emulate or become.

Here we are.

Yeah.

And what do I do when they try to bring me two steps back? It's quite interesting, right? Edwin's just covered— comes theatrically covered his ears with his hands. Two things I take away from that: one is maybe go low contact with some of these folks. Yeah, right. And second, Edwin has some good instincts there. Maybe actually turn to him as a partner.

Yeah.

Hey, I'm really struggling with this. My mom said this, or my sibling said that. And before I answer, like, what do you think I should do? Enlist his help for the areas that he is great at. And Edwin, you do the same for money. You two go from this parallel to this— partners. Would it work?

I think so.

Yeah.

Can I make a suggestion?

Yeah.

If I'm a couple and we're making $150,000, $160,000, $170,000 for the first time in our lives. I'm giving myself some advantages so that we are connected. Because if we are connected, then our baby is going to be happy. If we are connected, our finances are going to thrive and our health is going to thrive and we are going to thrive and our extended families are going to thrive. So y'all are not really feeding this relationship. Actually, you're doing the opposite. You're starving it. It's just like fight, fight, fight. So you know what successful people do? They don't wait till there's a problem. What if we do the same for therapy though? Instead of waiting until there's a fight, we actually have a regular standing meeting.

Yeah.

What I can tell is that it would be so helpful for the two of you to have models of healthy relationships. Would you agree?

Yes.

Yep.

If your only models are, for example, parents fighting for decades, then it's actually no surprise that you are in the same situation.

Mm-hmm.

In a way, you gotta— both of you acknowledge, like, hey, I actually, like, I love you so much, and I understand why we haven't been able to connect. Like, if we think about it, both of us are bringing, like, generations of disconnection, and we are in a different position. We make more money than we ever thought we would. We're here in the same place, finally, not long distance. Like, don't we owe it to ourselves to strengthen this relationship? If you do that, then you start to see things in a different light. Therapy, regular financial meetings, all of those things. Now, when it comes to the numbers, can I just point a couple things out. Yeah, the house thing, put that on hold. Yeah, right now there is no way you can find a house for the same price or even close to it. No way. If you were to get a house based on— depending on where you live, it would be at least double, probably triple what you're paying now. Would you agree?

Absolutely.

Okay, there's no money for that right now. Yeah, so we might as well just accept it. You're not wasting money on rent by closing the door on that, at least temporarily. You open the door on lots of other stuff. How much do we put away? How much are we saving? Right now you have less than a month of savings. That's not a lot. You realize your fixed costs are $7,000 and your savings are $5,000. Need to get that number up. And you actually can. You could do it. So if it's me, I'm sitting down, I'm going through Money for Couples together, together, each of you reading a chapter. I'm coming up with specific milestones. First, I want to have 6 months of an emergency fund. That's going to take a while.

Yep.

I want to make sure we are a household that has no credit card debt. We can use the credit card, but we always pay it off in full every month. Right. Start to set up some milestones. And once we hit this, this, this, then we can talk about a house down the road. But for now, we're going to have therapy. We're going to save towards 6 months of an emergency fund, and we're going to start investing more aggressively. Could you do it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. What questions are coming up for you right now?

I think the first thing that comes to mind is, how can I save more when I feel like I'm saving as much as I can right now?

Let's take a look at the numbers. If we go to your fixed costs, we are at 77% You're right, it's too high. We need to bring that number below 60%. Okay, so how do we do it? Well, your rent is solid.

Um, before you bring it down, we're trying to, to move to a bigger place, but all we've been looking at, it's like $3,000 and $2,500 and stuff. Okay, do you think from what you're seeing our budget can really afford that. Let's look.

Yeah, so you said right now it's $1,875 and you're saying the places are $3,000.

Yeah, the place that we're looking up is like $3,000, but we're trying to, to at least do $2,500.

Which number? Pick it. $2,500. Okay, watch. So if it's $2,500, watch what happens to this number right here, the 77%. 84%.

Jesus.

So what does that tell you?

We can't do it.

You can't afford it.

No, we can't.

Simple. I actually think you should take joy in that. Joy that at least you know. Isn't it better to know than to go and do it? And then every month you're like, where's all our money? That's how most Americans make their biggest decisions. It's crazy to me.

Yeah.

Like I said, if I were you and I had this place, I would stay for as long as I could. Because every month you are here, you are saving a huge amount of money. Huge. Y'all should look at your apartment, that place you're in, not as a curse, but as a gift. You're being given like over $1,000 a month. And I know it's small, but I would stay there for as long as I could. Okay.

Yep.

Great question.

It's a hard pill to swallow.

Wow.

Yeah. Let's keep going. What, what can you do in the fixed cost to reduce it? Tell me.

Definitely our personal spending.

$400 a month. What do you want to change that to?

Let's bring it to $200.

$200. Okay. Let's bring it lower than that.

Yeah, let's do $100 then. $100.

Can you do it?

Yeah. Yeah. I committed to that. All right.

Let's take a look at the number. 74%.

Good.

Good in the right direction. Keep going.

I could shop around for a cheaper insurance.

Even if you were to save like $100 a month, that's actually quite meaningful.

Okay.

I think you should look. I'm not going to change anything here, but you should do it. What else? What's this miscellaneous number? $960 a month on miscellaneous? We can bring that number down.

Mm-hmm.

It just means that you all have to be very meticulous about your spending.

Yeah.

Can you agree with that?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, let's bring it down. In my opinion, $960 is way too high. If it's me, I'd give you like $200.

$200.

$200 takes you down to 66%. We're— it's in better shape for sure.

Okay.

But that means that y'all have $200 and that's the max.

Yeah.

Of something that can come up. So if I'm you, anytime there's an extra, like, I don't spend the $200, I'm putting it into a savings account. Okay, because one day when your tires go flat, where's it coming from? That's where it's coming.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, the rest of it I think is good. Oh, the clothes are still at $150. I don't know, I think that's got to come down. $50 from— I'll keep you $50 each. Enjoy those shoes. It didn't even move the number. We're gonna do it anyway because sometimes Ramit Sethi is punitive. Uh, the baby, $1,677. Any opportunities there?

I would keep the baby same.

All right, so no changes here.

Fine.

I do want to point out a couple things down here. We got $200 a month going to the 529.

Not enough.

Not— no, it's way too much right now. You all need to be focusing on yourselves.

You don't have enough for retirement.

No, you don't have enough for retirement.

Oh, right.

Your baby is 10 months old. Yeah, your baby has time. You have less time.

Yeah.

So that $200 needs to be going for you, not for baby. Zero. Goodbye. Okay.

Yeah.

Cool. So we're doing $400. I like that. $400 for your investments. Savings are at 12%. That's good. Gifts, vacations. I don't think there are any vacations coming up for a while.

Uh, we planning for next year.

Oh, you are? Where are you going?

We want to introduce the baby to the family.

Okay.

All right.

I'm not going to argue with that. I want to make a couple of observations. So one, I think that clothes need to go into guilt-free spending. They're not fixed costs like you buying like some random pair of shoes. That's guilt-free spending.

Mm-hmm.

Actually, I'm going to take this to zero.

Okay.

And that money will flow down here. That comes out of here. That also includes things like eating out and things like family travel. Which, you know, you can save for it here. I see that, um, the money going back to DR, that's your individual money that you are choosing to send. Yeah, totally respect that. If you have an equivalent or something that you want to do, like travel, okay, fine, as long as it fits the numbers, great. If it doesn't fit, then you all need to cut back on something else. It's just math. It's like a puzzle. Make it work. Right now, based on the changes that we have made, you have almost $2,000 a month to distribute. Did you know that?

No, I did not.

Let me show you how that happened just so you can follow the math. So we cut a bunch of money from fixed costs.

Okay?

We cut the miscellaneous. We cut the clothes.

The baby.

We did cut $200 off the baby. So what all of that flowed down to the bottom, which is 19% guilt-free spending. Now, for most couples, I recommend 20 to 35%. In your case, you don't have enough savings. You don't have enough for retirement. So do you think that number should be higher or lower?

Lower.

Lower. I agree. You should spend less on, like, fun stuff. You could spend a little bit. You should spend less, and you should redirect it towards what?

Saving and retirement.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Crystal clear. Where do y'all think we should put this?

The sending money to DR?

Yeah.

Is that a bill? I feel like that's a fixed cost.

Fixed cost.

Yeah.

So we'll call that $400. All right, watch what happens. $400 means you're now at 69%. It's okay. It's not great, but it's okay. But it just means you're going to spend less on guilt-free spending.

Okay.

Y'all have $1,800 to spend. We need to increase the savings. How much you want to add to that?

We can make it a full thousand.

Good. Watch what happens. Your savings is now 12%. You still have $1,493. I like this. I like the direction we're going. There's actual math on this. You can open up a compound interest calculator and calculate how much you will need for retirement. But let's simulate it right now. Let's say we add an extra $500 a month. We're at 9%. Not bad. You still have $993 a month. Look, if it's me and I'm young with a baby and I'm trying to get ahead because— what's your ages again?

29.

31.

You guys have an amazing opportunity. Like, even $200 a month actually makes a huge difference right now. So if it's me, I'm taking this number down to freaking $600 here. I'll add an extra $100 to savings and an extra $100 to investments. Whoa, you're down to $793. That's not bad. That's not bad. You all have to be very thoughtful and planful about what you're spending. Guilt-free spending. You probably can't go on any more big vacations for a while.

Okay.

But you will not believe after 3 months, you're going to look in your accounts. You're going to be like, is this for real? You will not believe it. In 3 months, you will have an extra almost $4,000 in your savings account.

3 months.

That's crazy. And then in your investments, you will have an extra $3,000.

Wow.

That's amazing. That's just 3 months. Imagine 12 months. It becomes unstoppable. Again, y'all, you don't have to go this aggressive. You're young. You could dial it back a little bit if you want. If you go and you try this and you're like, this shit is way too impossible for us, and you talk about it. The bad way would be, I give up, back to the old ways. The good way would be, hey, I'm finding this really hard. Like, I know that we agreed for me to eat out once a week or for me not to take a vacation, but it— I don't feel this is sustainable. I would like to discuss with you a way for us to loosen the strings just a little bit. It may take us a little bit longer, but it's going to make it more sustainable for both of us. Would you be open to that discussion?

This is going to be a tough pill to swallow. I have friends who live all over the country.

You have plenty of time. And I am not saying you all have to live like hermits for the rest of your life. What I'm saying is that the way that you came into this conversation, do you remember what your number one goal was?

Clarity.

Yeah. And like, what was your thing that you wanted to do with your money?

Oh, to buy a house.

Buy a house.

Yeah.

Buy a house.

Yeah.

Right. And we discovered in 5 seconds that's not even feasible. I'm not saying that's forever. What I'm saying is let's actually focus on realistically what's possible and let's win. You all came in here and you were trying to set yourself up to fail. If you had bought a house, you would fail. You can't do it right now. What I'm doing is showing you how to create an actual plan where you will succeed. That is amazing. That is how you change this generation of messages that you learned. You have a plan. Your parents did not have a plan. I guarantee that. This changes things. Then the two of you need to connect. Therapy, regular meetings, reading the book together. Yeah, both of you being involved, not one, both. And then you follow the plan. And when it goes wrong, and it will go wrong at some point, you go, hey, let's talk about this. Doesn't mean you're a bad person. I love you. Let's figure out where we went off track. Let's get back on track. Can you all do that?

Yes, sir.

I believe you can. I believe that. What surprised you about today's conversation?

I just got surprised about the numbers. Yeah.

What part of it?

When you say in 3 months how much we can make, we can really save. It's like when you really think for the whole year, we're going to make it. I think we can make it. Good.

Yeah.

I really thought having a baby, I had so much I needed to do now and early., you know, the future. But I'm like, you're right, he's 10 months old. I have a lifetime ahead of me. So sometimes I feel like I run myself in this like anxious circle of needing to catch up and whatnot. And then it, I set myself back.

Yeah.

So that's a great, both great realizations. Calm, cool, and collected. That's how I am with money. That's how I want everyone to be. I can admire things. There may be certain things I see that I want to do. Maybe I can't afford it right now. Calm, cool, and collected. I have a little document in my phone. I jot it down. I create a little milestone. When we get to this, I'm going to go and look at my list and see what do I get to do? What do I get to do? But there is joy in creating a list of things you want to see and in maintaining your discipline. So that when you get there, it is even sweeter.

Yeah.

When you walked in here today, how are you feeling compared to how you feel now?

I feel lighter.

I feel very different because I feel like I, I just took a rock out of my back. Yeah, yeah, that's how I feel.

What about the two of you? How do you feel about the two of you as a unit?

I feel like This— you made a lot of points, like, gonna connect us way, way better. Yeah, especially the therapy, doing things together, sitting down and— right, and see what we do, what we spend and everything. I think that's gonna create a lot of a good habit between us, and then things gonna be better for us. Yeah, when it comes to that.

I just—

I think I'm realizing how much I am reinforcing negative habits from him. So I think I'm as much to blame in just like the cycles that we were in, even though I try to point the finger at him because he's not involved, he doesn't do blah, blah, blah. I think that because I'm always there to like pick up where he leaves off, I blame myself for that. So yeah, I'm looking in the mirror now and realizing that I need to change.

Great realizations, both very powerful. Edwins, will you combine accounts?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. My perspective now from before and now, it's, it's a lot. It's way different.

I love that. The two of you as a unit, if you are stronger, your son feels that. Your son sees that, and it actually becomes stronger over time. So it's like, right now, when you walked in, it was like two magnets repelling each other. It's like, if I try to push them together, they actually would fight. And I think what I'm starting to see are signs that you two have flipped. And that when I even bring you two close together, pow, you get together. And guess what? You keep those magnets together for a long time. And you start to fuse together, and then you got your little baby magnet, little 10-month-old comes along. Baby sticks like this. That's a beautiful family.

Yo.

It kind of explains a lot, the fact that both of them grew up with parents who fought. Imagine being in a household where your parents fight once a week, twice a week, every day. And you grow up for years seeing that, you would think it's normal. You wouldn't actually know that there is any other way to be. And I think that's a little bit of what we are seeing today. There's not only an untraining of what they learned, but there's a retraining of what a healthy relationship looks like. I'm actually really honored that they reached out and asked for help. I think they need to be around other people than they are normally around. Other people who say, hey, it's actually not normal to be completely separate in your marriage with a 10-month-old. Hey, it's actually cool if the two of you talk about how you feel and you can admit like, I'm nervous, or I made a mistake. They need to see that there's a different way to be, because once they see it, then they can start to adapt it and adopt it for their own relationship. If you find yourself talking past your partner, like the two of you are just not connecting about money, and you even find yourself jabbing each other, well, you did this and you did that, then it might be time to make a change. And if so, you should join my money coaching program. Every month I have a live event. The two of you can come together. There are tons of other people in that program in situations just like you and a little bit ahead. And you can have an opportunity to make money an important part of your relationship. I'll show you exactly what to do with your money. I will show you how to talk to each other about money. I will even show you how to spend your money meaningfully so the two of you can get on the same page. Join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching. Let's check out their follow-ups.

Hello guys. Hello, Ramit Sethi. I'll say thank you one more time for the opportunity. And then I'll say right away, my biggest surprise was to see my wife emotional. Ramit Sethi, that means you knew something was going on with her. And then to me, that was amazing. And then I'll say my takeaway is about the credit card. Now I have a better idea. I have enough information from you about how to use my credit card properly. And then I'll say action. Me and my wife, we're about to open our joint account. We're about to get our couple therapy. We're about— we're getting ready to invest better, to save better. Now we feel like every little things that we buy, we have to take note and then to make things better. But we also don't want to be cheap, but here we go. We're trying and then we are ready to prove ourselves that we can make it. Thank you guys. Thank you. Keep changing life.

I have really been surprised by, I think, just how much I have to take responsibility for our dynamic with money. I think Ramit really opened my eyes to the fact that I have been playing mom with my husband, Edwin, and I don't think that's been helpful to us at all. I have a lot to unpack with that. And I also think that we both need to really work through that stuff in couples therapy, which is another thing that I'm taking away from that conversation with Ramit. Overall, I think Ramit Sethi really helped us to understand with the numbers we have a lot more we need to be saving than we are spending. I can't be traveling like I usually do, which I'm crying about internally. But I think the sacrifices that we're making now for our future in order to have a rich life, I think, are going to be worth it. My hope is also to be clear and specific with him about what my non-negotiables are in the relationship and really set a standard that Ramit Sethi really pushed to me. So I'm going to work on that and I'll check back in and see how things are going from there. But thank you.

It's been about, I want to say, a month and a half since we last met to go over our money coaching. And a lot has changed. I want to start off by saying our relationship has been through a lot of ups and downs. I think since that conversation, you were really able to sit with each other and talk about One, the challenges that we faced with money growing up, how we want money to be in our relationship, and then how we really hope to like parent with our son in the future with money as well. We also started doing money meetings every Tuesday.

We going through also with our therapy, we met with our therapy and then it's going good so far.

We also have started started, um, a joint savings and joint checking account.

Yeah, yeah.

We've also been able to really combine our finances in some areas. I think we still both want to have some sense of independence and like, I do my thing, you do your thing, but for the most part, our family finances have to be combined.

But the main thing is we already seeing changes in our savings. So they say the, the changes is, it's, it's going good. Uh, we, we don't want to say numbers, but we are impressed with that.

Yeah, he's very happy to know we have about $5,000 in our savings.

Oh my God.

Yeah, in one month and a half, it's like—

and just the short amount of time, we've already seen how, like, combining our finances, which I'm— I've been saying forever, I'm glad Ramit Sethi was able to say that to him, that we really were able to reach our goals a lot faster when we combine. So that's been the biggest thing we've really seen improvements on. Again, we're doing couples therapy. I want to say that we've been really able to have better communication. About not just money, but just our goals and our hopes for our relationship and our future together. We are not going to be doing any big traveling as Ramit warned us that we probably should just stick to getting our emergency savings up. That's going to be our priority. Um, but yeah, I think we're really hopeful and excited about what the future holds for us. We're going to really take the things that Ramit Sethi shared in that conversation, as well as what we're learning in the book together. Um, and we'll see what the world takes us in the future. So thank you again for all your help.

Um, and we'll keep working on ourselves.

Thanks. Thank you.

Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply, or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&As, and an amazing, huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.