268. "We Make $150K… So why are we broke?"

When are you going to be rich? I'm not talking metaphorically. I want a date. What month and what year are you going to have $1 million, $2 million, $500,000, be debt-free, or just be able to take a vacation without worrying about the price of calamari? Well, I'm hosting a free live event on July 13th. I'm going to help you answer that exact question. You can save your seat at iwt.com/liveevent.

I want an Xbox, like, yeah, let's go buy it.

How can you have a spending problem and then at the same time you want to get a house?

We're not mindful with money.

We both have ADHD, so we really need the dopamine hit. Whenever we want something, we just do it.

So much of that debt came from poor decisions we both had made when we were younger.

Which poor decisions are you still making today with your money?

Not having a plan and spending it on things that we probably don't need.

I took our older kid to Target. He points out this pillow and I was like, All right, I need this.

It's not like he even asked for it.

Well, it's not his, it's mine.

We were doing this like Legoland trip and ended up making a lot of impulse buys at Legoland.

So for Legos, Legos are our whole personality now.

I'm gonna say something that's gonna be uncomfortable to hear. The money you have right now, this not working.

You will end up without a house. You will end up without enough money in the bank. It will be gone. I love when people dream about money. What do they want in their rich life? What do they want to experience, taste? Where do they want to go? The problem is a lot of people stop there. Like, if you want a bigger house or another child or a better life for your family, amazing. But at some point, we've got to go from a dream to a plan. Otherwise, it's just a random fantasy, and I don't want to see that. Today I'm talking to Lauren and Mick, 34 and 36 years old. They've been married for 7 years.

They have 2 kids.

Let me take a look at their application. Lauren wrote in and she says, we have so much debt and struggle to get on top of it. We want a third kid but can't see that happening soon with our current spending habits. We're trying to move into a 3-bedroom apartment, or better yet, a condo or standalone house that our kids can grow up in. They're writing in saying they have a spending problem, but then In the next sentence, they want to upgrade their house. Okay, I got to find out what their numbers are. I'm going to take a look at their conscious spending plan. And if you want my help with your CSP and taking control of your money, you can join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching. Let's take a look. Assets: $20,000. Investments: $89,000. Savings: $5,000. Debt: $93,500. For a total net worth of $20,500. Wait, their fixed costs are 89%? Why are we talking about a new house right now? What? You know what? Some of you just need to be told no. I'm sorry. No, you can't buy a house anytime soon. However, I'm a professional. I need to work through the process. I actually do have a lot of questions like, how are their fixed costs at 89%? Has it always been this way? And how would they propose they move to a 3-bedroom place if they are already basically spending more than they make every single month? We're going to find out in this conversation with Lauren and Mick.

Lauren, what do you feel about your finances today?

I get really stressed out, especially when, like, I have to think too hard to make it work. Since I am the keeper of the calendar, I feel like a lot of the responsibility rests on my shoulders to make sure that all of our bills are paid on time, and I don't feel like I am able to keep it up.

Mm-hmm.

Kind of what initially turned us on to your work was both of us made a lot of poor decisions when we were in our early 20s. I took out a lot of credit cards. I had a lot of credit card debt. I wasn't educated enough on what that can do to you later in life. And it took me a long time to kind of correct course. I feel like we're starting to be on that course. But at the same time, with everything being as expensive as it is right now, and, you know, we live in a very expensive city. I mean, we are debating having a third child. It's like, I would love to move into like a larger apartment or like, like rent a house. But I wish that there's a little bit more.

So if we have an amazing conversation today, 10 out of 10, what do you each want to walk out of here with?

A game plan. Okay. Something that we can stick to that's not hard.

Oh, okay.

I think for me, it's probably a little bit more confidence knowing that we're doing the right thing, that the stuff we've already done was on the right track.

Do you feel like you have a plan right now? Eh.

I feel like, I mean, I feel like we've definitely caught up quite a bit from where we were a few years ago. Like now we've had setbacks here and there that were very unexpected and is sometimes it felt like taking two steps forward and one step back. So I think if we can stop taking the steps back, then that's a good thing.

All right, let's see what we can do. Now I read your application. Thank you for submitting it. And Lauren, you wrote the application.

Mm-hmm.

You wrote, we want to get better at planning ahead and managing our impulsivity around purchases.

Yeah.

Okay. Now walk me through what you mean by impulsive purchases.

We both have ADHD.

Uh-huh.

So we really need the dopamine hits to, like, get us through. We're, like, both really burnt out.

Okay.

And so sometimes whenever we want something, we just do it because we want it badly enough.

And how else does ADHD show up with your finances?

Like, we got 80% there, and then taking that last 20%, when we came up with the plan, um, just got really hard. We kind of— I hyper-focused on your book and the podcast for maybe 6 months.

Okay.

And then—

sounds great so far. Where's the problem?

Well, and then I just kind of gave up on it.

So you read it, you started opening up accounts, etc. And then what was the point where you said like, uh, the last 20%?

I think it was more figuring out how to do our savings and investments and things like that.

And then just in terms of like the how ADHD kind of comes into play, she has a really good calendar that she sets, but I, I don't. And like paying bills sometimes, like yesterday she was like, hey, we're past due on our electric bill, did you know that? And I was like, no. And and then I paid it, but it was like just remembering that stuff and like all the processes, like we really have to nail 'em all down and I try to do autopay and whatever I can, but that also gets us into trouble sometimes if we haven't remembered to like, well, we need enough money in this account because there's an autopay that's going through next week.

I see.

So yeah, the automations.

Automations are like a double-edged sword, I think.

And now, are you getting help for ADHD for other parts of life?

Yes.

Doctor, therapist, etc.?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We both are.

We're both in therapy. We both, yeah.

We take medication.

Great. Okay, good. What are the other impulsive purchases that you've made?

Well, this morning I took our older kid to Target because one of the toys he bought was broken. And then he points out this K-pop Demon Hunters, uh, Pillow. Like, pillow. And I was like, all right, I need this.

How old is he?

5.

5. So he pointed out and you bought it?

Yeah.

Okay, so, okay, so impulsive purchases at the store because it's not like he even asked for it.

Yeah, well, it's not his, it's mine.

Well, you bought it for yourself. Okay, that clarifies things. All right, all right. Uh, are the two of you married?

We are, yeah.

And how long you've been married for?

Uh, it'll be 7 years this year.

7 years. Okay. And age of your children?

5 and 2.

5 and 2. Okay, got it. Can you think of a time in the recent few months where the two of you were not on the same page about money?

Both our boys have birthdays that are within the same week, and so we were doing this like Legoland trip, and she really wanted to like stay at the Legoland hotel and do like the whole nine yards. And I was like, can we like Maybe do a different hotel. And I think it took a little bit of convincing before you were like, all right, we'll do it. We ended up picking the less expensive option, but then we also then ended up making a lot of impulse buys at Legoland.

So for like, for Legos.

Legos are our whole personality now.

That's the latest hyperfixation.

So we also did like a little birthday party. I tried to do the cheapest option possible where I didn't have to do all the legwork. Hold on.

How can the cheapest option be the one where you don't have to do the legwork?

It's $15 a kid. Okay. Not bad for a kid's party.

Okay.

But what I asked for instead of getting actual gifts, I asked for gift cards to Legoland. Okay. So I was kind of trying to crowdsource a little bit so that we would have a little extra spending money at Legoland.

Did it work?

Yeah.

How much did you get?

Probably got like almost $200.

And how much did the Legoland trip cost?

What, 2 grand?

Well, the hotel was like $700 for 2 nights. And then I did $110 a person for 3 days.

Legoland was 3 days?

It was 2 days. They've added so much stuff.

I only went to Disneyland for 1 day. Like, this is crazy to me, okay? So it's thousands. Like if you add it all up?

Uh, $1,500.

Okay.

Maybe.

Yeah, yeah.

All right. Do you have the money for it?

We did, but I think part of that is because I had gotten an unexpected bonus, like, shortly before. So I think we would have been struggling a little bit more right now if that didn't happen.

What are the roles that each of you currently plays with your money?

I guess I'm like the person that executes.

And then Lauren, what's your role?

I plan it out.

You're the planner, you're the executor?

Yeah.

Is that true though? Because you told me that, you know, you forgot about the bill being due.

Well, I tell him that the bill is due. Like, when I saw the electric bill was past due and I'm like, hey, can you pay this?

Oh, so you're the planner and the reminder.

Yeah, she is the reminder.

Okay, okay.

I have a hard time figuring out the overall picture. But if I know something needs to be paid, I at least try to figure out like generally where the schedule should be. So like some bills I know are due like the 1st of the month and some are the 15th of the month. And somebody has been a little bit slow on transferring some of the bills from his individual account to the shared account.

To be honest, it's probably part of the ADHD, like just not, it's become like a blindness thing. Like, because we have like subscriptions and like whatever. So like, I guess with all of those, a lot of them are just automatically set to my personal card.

Yeah.

And so sitting down and then just transferring them all, it doesn't sound hard. And I think most people would probably think it doesn't sound that hard. But sometimes, like, if there are other people that are watching that have ADHD, sometimes just doing something is not just doing something.

Yeah.

And that's probably a lot of it, honestly.

Here's my take, and I want to see if you'll resonate with this or not. Feel free to tell me. So I'm not an ADHD expert, but I know that it shows up in money a lot. And I think in part today we can probably all admit there's some ADHD showing here.

Mm-hmm.

I'm glad that you guys are getting help. I don't need to fully understand how ADHD works with money.

Mm-hmm.

But I need you to find a solution to these problems.

That makes sense.

Even if you have ADHD, even if it's harder for you than for other people, you still got to find a solution using all the resources at your disposal because you can't go through life not solving this money problem, especially because you have kids.

Yeah.

I mean, we've had a lot of obstacles over the last I mean, our whole lives, but I mean, that's everyone. But especially the last few years, I feel like we have been really motivated to like clear our debt and to, you know, start thinking about retirement and, you know, make sure that we have a solid foundation to build on. And then a couple of years ago, Mick got laid off. And ever since then, I feel like we have been on this roller coaster, emotional roller coaster. So we've been dealing with a lot of trauma from that. And we've also been dealing with the emotional toll that living in a scarcity mindset takes on you. Yeah, so. He didn't have a job for like a year. Eventually it all ran out and then he finally got a job and we're like, yes, we can finally spend money again. And then we went a little too crazy.

You went a little too crazy means you overspent.

Yeah.

And by how much did you overspend?

I can't even quantify it.

There's an interesting pattern that I am noticing with Lauren and Mick. They have a reason for everything when it comes to their behavior. And I'm actually down to talk about it all. Like, you want to talk about high cost of living? No problem. If you're out of work for a year, let's talk about what to do about that. But I will also be clear when there are certain things that are not my area of expertise. I'm not an expert on ADHD. I want to establish that right now. Now, I am thrilled to hear that they are taking steps to manage it, but I do know that even with ADHD, they have to find a way to survive and thrive when it comes to their money. So that is my challenge for them today. And we're going to take a look at their numbers right after this. I love helping couples on this show get on the same page about money. But the truth is, this is one conversation. And in order to make big changes that stick, it often takes a lot of conversations. This is why you'll hear me recommending to couples that they get regular couples therapy. I recommend checking out Grow Therapy. Grow Therapy makes it easy to find a therapist that fits you, not the other way around. They make it easy to search by what matters, by identity, specialty, availability, insurance coverage, all of those, so you can find a therapist that's the right fit for you. And from there, they connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering in-person or virtual sessions, including on evenings and weekends. There's no subscription. There's no long-term commitment. You just book and pay per session with free cancellation up to 24 hours before your appointment. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans and sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com/ramit today to get started. That's growtherapy.com/ramit. Growtherapy.com/ramit. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. There are so many similarities between personal finance and fitness. They both involve following a plan. They both involve being intentional and changing your internal psychology. And actually, I find that a lot of people, once they get good at money, they actually transfer that to their own personal fitness. Now, part of fitness is also what you eat, and to be able to have any tools that make this easier for you is a huge win in my book. So I'd like to introduce you to Factor, which lets you eat delicious, nutrient-dense meals without all the hassle. Factor is a meal service that delivers fully prepared, ready-to-eat meals directly to your door. And they have a lot of variety. They have over 100 rotating weekly meals, including high protein options, keto, GLP-1 friendly. They even have a Muscle Pro collection for strength and workout recovery. Factor meals include lean proteins, colorful veggies, and healthy fats. Plus, they are never frozen and they are ready to eat in under 2 minutes. This is an easy way to try introducing systems into your health, specifically the way you eat. And if I needed healthy ready-made meals, this is what I would use. Head to factor meals.com/ramit50off and use code RAMIT50OFF to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only while supplies last until September 27th, 2026. See website for more details.

I want to take a look at the numbers, help me understand What's going on? Uh, what was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?

So we had done one a few years ago. That was the harder one because it was the first time that we really looked into our finances and then saw like how much debt we were in.

I had never seen how much he owed.

Oh really?

Yeah, and likewise, I had never seen how much she owed.

What was the amount at the time?

Um, I think I was up to like $20,000 of debt.

Credit card?

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And I was like at $18,000, I want to say.

Ah, you were married at the time, right?

Oh yeah.

Y'all never talked about it?

No, we, we really didn't.

Like, we—

yeah, we had, we, we had, we, we still had a shared account that, you know, we paid rent through and some bills, and then I'd pay some bills through my account.

But no sitting down and let's give each other the full overview?

Not really.

Usually like one person's like, hey, I feel like I need to know more.

I mean, I probably mentioned it more than you did. At the time it seemed like you were a little embarrassed about how much you owed and you didn't really want to share it with me.

I mean, I probably was. I also didn't know how much you owed, and I probably would have been a little— felt a little better if I knew because we were in the same boat and I didn't realize it.

Let's look at the numbers. Let me put them up on screen. So I am going to ask you, Lauren, to read off the word in bold and then the number next to it for this entire box, please.

Assets: $20,000. Investments: $89,000. Savings: $5,000. Debt: $93,500. Total net worth: $20,500.

Okay. What do you think about those numbers?

I mean, the debt is high, but I'm kind of impressed with us for having a net worth.

I actually think I made a joke about it. I'm like, oh, we actually have a positive net worth.

That's great.

Is that because for so long you had a negative net worth?

I mean, yeah, yeah.

I mean, the only reason why we have a positive net worth is because of our 401s. Uh-huh.

That's okay.

She has a 401. I had previous jobs where I had an automatic deduction.

Yes.

Uh, I don't currently have a 401k. Like, I have my 401k account, but it's an old account, so I can't make contributions.

Well, and then after I read your book, I was like, hey, you should convert your old 401k to a Roth IRA.

Yeah, so I do have a Roth IRA.

That's good. Um, and I've been trying to convince him to do like $20 a month.

Yeah, which I did. I did set up a $20 a month just contribution.

What's up with this dynamic of I've been trying to convince convince him?

Sometimes it's a little challenging to get, uh, Mick to do things. Why?

I guess I'm stubborn. I'm very stubborn.

Yeah, why though? It's not like she's trying to get you to eat poison. It's like, set up a Roth IRA and put $50 a month. What's the resistance?

If I— it's not in front of me in the moment and I say, oh, I'll do it later, I don't, I don't do it later.

That's it? Yeah, it's just a, like, an administrative issue.

I, I think that's probably part of it.

I mean, just to ask it like a blunt question, why don't you just do it for him?

I don't have the login.

I think it's something that we haven't even thought about, honestly. Like, the questions that you're bringing up—

yes, I can tell. And I want to know why. Like, is money, um, important in your relationship? It's okay if the answer is no. I just want to understand.

I would— I mean, I would say it isn't because we when she first met me, I didn't even have a job. I was broke.

Okay, so it's not important.

Yeah.

Do you respect money?

In what way?

How do we respect something? If we respect, um, food, we think about what we're going to eat. We perhaps buy certain types of ingredients. We talk about what we're going to eat. We clean things. Um, we chop them with our kids or clean them with our kids. Like, it's part of our family, you know? It's a thing that we are methodical about and thoughtful and talkative, planful. Money, same way. So I'll ask the question again. Do you respect money?

Um, no, I don't think— I don't think we do. I think it's something that we only think about when we need to.

Yes, I agree. Okay.

I believe Lauren and Mick have an external locus of control. External locus of control means they don't believe they are in control of their own destiny, that they believe that life happens to them and they exist merely to react to it.

You know, a surprising amount of people feel this way.

A lot of people grow up feeling very little control over their own environment. Perhaps they grew up poor. The minute they put a little bit of money aside, their boots broke or their tires got flattened. And so no matter what they did, something happened and set them 2 steps back. And if that's what your parents saw and their parents and you, well, it's no surprise that you have an external locus of control. If somebody has an external locus of control, it is virtually impossible for me to change that, especially in one conversation.

It can be changed. You can practice it.

You can start by setting up a $20 a month automatic savings plan, and within 10 months you will see $200. So if you meet someone with an external locus of control, can they change?

Sure.

Is it likely to happen? No, because it's really, really hard.

Ramit Sethi, can you read off the combined gross monthly income, please?

Yes. $12,470.

Cool. So it's about $150,000 a year gross. Did you know that you made that?

Yes.

Yes.

Both of you?

Yes.

Wow. What would you tell yourself at the time where you finally got a job and you started to spend more?

I think for us, in terms of our comfort, it was like a— we have— we had breathing room because I was getting a larger paycheck again. And so it goes back to like getting that dopamine hit, like, let's go to more restaurants, let's go out to eat more, let's, you know, buy those toys that we were not going to get for the kids or even stuff for ourselves, you know. Let me go buy a video game console, or, you know, let me get a few books or a new Kindle or whatever it was. And it was, it was one of those things where we felt like we had deprived ourselves and then the opposite happened. And because I think like life got interrupted right when we were on the right track, all of those things that, you know, we had learned from your book and your show, And then the other things that we were doing to, like, get our finances together, that became a low priority because we were just trying to survive for a few months.

Okay. What is this number here?

89%.

89%. What does that tell you?

The vast majority of our money is just going toward those fixed costs.

Exactly.

89% of your take-home pay goes to your fixed costs. That's the ballgame. That means you spend effectively every last cent you make going to fixed costs. Implication being you don't have enough money for fun. Fun.

Savings.

Although I suspect you do spend it anyway on fun.

Yeah.

No, you definitely don't have enough for savings, which is why there's zero going towards it and a relatively small amount in savings. $5,000.

That was just his bonus.

You've been putting $300 a month away, but then why is it only $5,000 in savings? Where you pulling it out?

Yeah, so the— that money is supposed to go toward our car payment.

Um, yeah, I mean, we end up pulling it out for bills. That's basically— that's the basic thing that happens.

Okay.

Yeah, investments are at zero, savings are at 3%, although it's unclear if that's actually going to savings or not. And then finally, guilt-free spending says 8% or $713, but we know that's not true. Right? Yeah, more than that, for sure. So what do you make of the fact that you are spending more than the CSP shows you have?

I mean, it's just going to increase our debt.

I think that's part of like why we're here to figure out like what do we really need to cut back and, and save for because we do need the savings. I don't think everything is set up correctly.

Yeah.

And I guess a lot of it is kind of administrative in a way because things aren't set up and because the visibility is not there. We're making poor choices.

I think that's partially true. Yes.

What's the debt?

$93,500. What type of debt is that?

We have 2 cars and—

2 cars and credit cards. And credit cards. Yeah.

Okay. Break it down for me. How much is the first car?

I want to say it's around $28,000. Is it $28,000?

All right, $30K.

Around $30K. Uh, it's a Mustang Mach-E.

How much did it cost when you bought it?

Well, $35,000.

Okay.

We got a really horrible interest rate on it.

What interest rate?

It was like 9% when we first bought it.

We got it refinanced.

To what?

Um, now it's like 6%.

Yeah.

Okay. What's the next car?

Um, it's a lease.

Uh, Honda CR-V. You're leasing a Honda CR-V. Why are you leasing it?

It's brand new.

Yeah.

What does that have to do with it?

Cheaper monthly payment.

Yeah, it was a cheaper monthly payment, basically. That was the whole reason.

Okay, got it. And then how much credit card debt?

Well, the loan that we just took out was $35,000, and that was in January.

$35,000 what?

$35,000.

What interest rate?

Uh, I want to say like around 8%.

What do y'all think of this?

Part of the reason that we did it is because, because it was all credit card debt and it was insanely high interest. I mean, it was 20-something percent interest.

26% on most of the cards.

Yeah. And so I wanted to completely shut down any credit spending. Yeah. And so I'm like, we need to pay off this debt. If we keep it in the credit card, the interest rate's too high. We don't have the money to pay it off.

But like, you're still spending on credit cards, right? No, no.

I mean, I, yeah, the only thing that we've recently put on a credit card was the Legoland Hotel.

So now I understand the debt. You have two car payments and the consolidated debt at roughly 8% or so. So let's just say $93,000 of debt at like, let's say 9%.

The percentage is always the thing that like sticks out to me after like reading your book and everything that I've is like, it costs a lot of— it's gonna be a lot of money extra. And I think that sticks out to me, but at the same time, like the decisions that we made at the time, at least for this credit card debt solution, was because we're gonna save some interest.

Yeah, but what about getting into credit card debt in the first place?

That's— that was the problem. And so I think that, like, so much of that debt came from very poor decisions that we both had made when we were younger.

Which poor decisions are you still making today with your money?

I mean, I guess not having a plan.

Yeah, not having a plan and spending it on things that we probably don't necessarily need.

It's kind of the same as it was before. The only difference is you consolidated your credit card debt, but the principles are still the same. Spending more than you have on largely discretionary things and fixed. And there's no plan.

Mm-hmm.

So like the consolidation is just buying you time. Even if you pay it off, you'll go back into debt unless you change fundamentally the way that you have a relationship with money and with each other.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Yeah. I mean, I will say I think that we've been doing so much better about not using our credit cards.

Notice with Lauren and Mick, when I make a suggestion, there is a lot of explanation.

Over-explanation of why they are in this situation, where they used to be, and how far they've come. And candidly, it doesn't really interest me. I could spend the next 5 days listening to stories about why they are here and why everything they've done is actually quite rational, and they will get nowhere. That's not even what they want. But unconsciously, they are simply bringing up old stories so that they don't have to change.

Not interested.

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So what are you gonna do to fix it?

I think it's maybe what we went back to before, is that we're not respecting it enough and we don't talk about it. It's not just that we don't talk about it with each other. I don't talk about it with anyone. Correct.

Um, I don't think you think about it.

I don't, I don't really think about it all that much.

The application that you wrote said to me we are struggling with our spending patterns, which I thought was very insightful. Very few people actually reference their own spending problem. That was cool. And then, like, 2 sentences later, it said, also, we want to get a 3-bedroom apartment or house. And I was like, how can that be? How can you have a spending problem and then at the same time you want to get a house?

That we're not mindful with money. Correct.

To me, I think the way that you're talking about money feels like it's this abstract thing, and it's kind of just like, I break it in case of when we need it. And even if we just want it— Legoland, like, I'll kind of collect some gift cards, but like, we're going to do Legoland. It doesn't really matter how much we have. We're just going to do it. We'll find a way.

And if it adds to the debt, it's not going to—

it's fine. It's fine.

It feels very detached.

A plan is deeply real and local. It affects like what you eat, where you go, what kind of birthday party. Like there are numbers that guide what you're doing. If you had a plan like that, would it feel good or bad?

Um, I think it would eventually feel good. I think it would be— feel like scary. Yes, probably scary and uncomfortable.

I think that's true. Yeah, I'm gonna try to make money really simple today, because I think it's like there's a lot of different confusing things going on. There's accounts over here, and you're the planner and you're the executor, but you also execute too. And you have to remind the executor.

And then there's debt, but it's consolidated.

It's just like a lot in many ways. Like, my finances are simpler than yours, and that shouldn't be the case. Like, trust me, it should not be the case. We should make all of our finances simple so that we deeply understand it and that we don't have to make 1,000 decisions per month. I know I don't want to do that. Yeah, I know you two don't want to.

Absolutely not. Yeah.

All right. Help me understand how you each grew up with money.

Mick?

I didn't learn a whole lot about money growing up. My dad was supported a lot by his parents. They were fairly well off, but I think they didn't support him in the way that they should have. Like, they didn't teach him about money.

They gave him money. Okay.

Um, and so that was a skill that he never had, and that didn't get passed on to me.

Does he at least give you money?

He's broke. And then my, my mom, um, she was a stay-at-home mom, which is an incredibly hard job, but she also didn't really— she never worked, and she, she didn't enter the workforce. So I feel And that way she doesn't necessarily understand sometimes how much goes into it.

But her mom also was well off and—

Well, not necessarily. I mean, my grandmother was— my mom's mom was probably the best of my grandparents when it came to teaching about money. But even so, I don't think there was enough that was passed down to either of my parents and henceforth never to like me.

Okay.

And so what did they say?

Did they have any words they used about money?

My dad would not— he was the type that didn't want to buy anything, like he didn't want to spend on anything at all. Ah, um, but he was a gambler.

Oh, like a, like a real gambling addict. I see.

And so that, luckily I didn't inherit that. And so that is something that has always been a struggle, but money, like in terms of like bills and stuff. And my parents didn't have the visibility with each other and what was going on. And so how'd the bills get paid? I have no idea. And then I would be the— I mean, when I was a teenager and, you know, eventually everything moved online, my parents aren't necessarily that tech savvy. But, you know, once that started happening, I was the one that was at least like making sure that the bills got paid. And just in terms of like, I would set up an autopay or I would set up a bill.

You did that as a teenager? Yeah.

But not knowing where the money came from.

Yeah, but what about now? You mentioned that you struggled setting up autopay now and like kind of making sure everything works out, executing correctly.

Mm-hmm.

How do you reconcile that?

To be honest with you, it's usually like when the problems happen, it's because I forgot a credit, like one of our cards expired and I didn't change it.

Yeah.

Or like that, those like little minor missteps.

Uh-huh.

Um, are what kind of get me into trouble in terms of that.

What do you remember about money at this point, once you're in your early 20s?

I just wanted to do stuff and spend money because I, I mean, I'm fortunate that I didn't have any student debt, but I was like, oh, I can get a credit card and I can buy whatever I want. I want, oh, I want an Xbox. Like, yeah, let's go buy it. And I would, I was just spending like crazy. Not understanding interest rates, not understanding that making a minimum payment is doing nothing.

Nobody explained this to you?

No.

And you did not seek out learning about it?

No, because I didn't understand that it was hurting me. Um, because I was like, oh, I can just make my minimum payments and just keep collecting debt, and there's no consequence to that.

Okay.

And like, I didn't understand credit scores. I didn't understand anything, like how a savings account worked. I didn't understand how a 401 worked.

What about now?

Now I do, and now I, like, I wish I'd known it sooner.

Lauren, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

So my mom has always been an entrepreneur. She's owned her own business for over 40 years. So like her office was at our home. So whenever she wanted something, like whether it was a course— she loves doing courses where she can like learn about, you know, more about her business or like get coaching from someone. She just like—

such as money coaching. Okay, go on.

So whenever she wanted to buy something Her rationale was, I'll put it on a credit card and then I'll go make the money to pay off the credit card.

Okay.

My dad just kind of took care of everything. My mom didn't look at the bills. She didn't even know how to pay bills. But my dad, he didn't really hold any boundaries with my mom because like even after he inherited a bunch of money from his dad after he passed, Um, he wanted to put that into a house, and we looked. I remember like going to different open houses like to try and get a house, and my mom was like, no, no, it was always no. And then we ended up spending it on other things like trips.

What do you take away from that?

For me, money just allows you to do things.

Go deeper than that.

Money allows you to I guess enjoy life, but it's not something you should ever really have to think about.

Ah, that is insightful. I shouldn't really have to think about money. I want to use it on the things I love, and that's it.

And, um, later on when I became a teenager, I basically reframed that into like, I'm such a great manifester of money. Like, I always figure something out to make it easier. So like, when I went to college, like, at that point my parents had gone through bankruptcy and a divorce. And so I was living with my dad who didn't have a job. And at the time, like, FAFSA, like, you have to put your parents' information. Now that they were divorced, they just went through bankruptcy, as long as I put my dad's information on it, who's unemployed. Like, so I got grants for like my entire college, um, so I didn't have any loans or anything like that.

So why'd they declare bankruptcy?

Because they had over $140,000 of credit card debt.

Why?

Because my mom would put things on a credit card and then try to make money to pay it off, and she couldn't keep up with it. Not a good, um, way to do it.

You yourself went into credit card debt, right?

I asked for an American Express card when I was 3.

It's pretty good.

I'm only child. My parents were making some pretty good money when I was a kid.

So how did that happen after seeing your mom go through that and dad?

I couldn't pay more than the minimum payment, and so I would, uh, just transfer my balance from card to card so that I would get the zero interest. And so I was just holding on to it instead of paying it off. It wasn't going up, but it was just there.

I think Lauren tries to game the system, but ultimately she games herself. The Legoland and then the FAFSA thing— I don't really mind it, but they all come together to suggest that she's trying to find a way out of any constraints. I don't want to be bound by these. And that is very problematic because if you are going to make a turnaround plan with your money, you actually have to totally buy in. You can't try to evade it. You can't try to come up with excuses why it's not a right anymore. You have to say black and white, this is my plan. It is by definition constraining me and I love it. Until Lauren has a very powerful vision. For what she and Mick want to do with their money, they will forever be trying to escape, evade, come up with little ways and diversions around it.

I have a couple questions about your numbers. Uh, $1,100 a month for car and gas. Do you need two cars?

Yes.

Okay, how come?

Um, I commute to work. Um, I have a fairly long commute, and then Lauren, uh, Works hybrid. She works in the office 1 day a week. The rest she is working from home. So she needs to be able to pick up the boys or take them to whatever.

Got it.

Okay.

You have $980 a month in debt payments. That is for your roughly $33,000 consolidated loan?

Correct.

Well, no, because there's a couple things that are about to fall off.

What are you going to do with the extra money?

Preschool.

Oh, so I noticed there's no childcare on here.

Yeah.

So how's that?

We're fortunate that my mom lives very close to us. She's like half a block away.

Okay.

Um, and so she helps immensely with that. And then Lauren works from home.

How much is preschool gonna cost?

Um, it's a co-op, so it's not like a full-service like daycare or anything. Um, it's around 480.

Ah, where's that gonna come from?

Um, yeah, I mean, part of it—

part of Lauren's reaction, what was it?

It was, we don't know.

Yeah, is yours the same?

A little bit.

I mean, yeah, some of it's gonna come because we're gonna be saving money on our debt payments per month, but otherwise it's one of those things we're like, oh, we'll figure it out.

Yeah.

When are you guys going to start getting ahead of this? Because I feel like for the last, what, 15 years it's been, you're behind the eight ball, you're reacting to money.

Yeah.

Like, you literally know that you have preschool coming up in a matter of months.

Mm-hmm.

You have two kids. Like, there's a lot at stake here. And you're talking about potentially having a third. And when are you going to get ahead of your money?

Start today.

Hopefully right now. Okay. Yeah, I mean, we haven't, so this is the time to do it. I mean, we have to.

Is there a reason powerful enough for you to change?

I think about my own children all the time in terms of like teaching them the right skills. If I'm not setting an example for my own children, they're gonna run into the same, situation.

And like, what example are you setting for them right now?

Not a good one. I mean, we're setting the example that you don't talk about money, you need to react to it.

Yeah.

What else?

That you shouldn't even worry about money because we can just do anything we want. I would really love to never have to tell my kids, oh, we can't afford that.

But I mean, can I, can I push on that for one second?

So I don't like that phrase. Yeah, because I find that when parents say that, kids internalize it. They don't really understand what afford it means. And then parents repeat it 10,000 times, and then their kid comes on this show with $4 million in their bank account and they still don't believe they can afford it. They have been imbued with this sense of scarcity regardless of the actual situation of their finances. So I don't like that, but I love saying no to a kid. So are you saying I don't want to say no, or I don't want to say we can't afford it?

We do say no to him.

I also think we don't stick to our guns enough. I think we'll say no and then he'll push back, and then it's like, all right, as opposed to like, no, holding boundaries. Yeah, there's not enough boundaries, and I think that's also a poor example that we're setting is that we don't hold boundaries with ourselves in a lot of ways. And so how are they going to learn boundaries if we're not?

Bingo.

Bingo. That is the crux of today. If you can't hold boundaries with yourself, then you can't hold boundaries with your partner. If the two of you can't hold boundaries as a unit, then you definitely can't hold boundaries with your kids. All right, I want to open up your CSP, and I want to ask you some questions. First thing, we're going to do is figure out the preschool because that's coming up. This is a guarantee, it is going to happen right now. Your debt is going to go down. It's $980. That's going to come down by how much?

About $300.

Okay, so $680. 86%.

Well, and this is where we get stuck because like we've already switched our phone provider, so we shaved off $100 a month. Car payments are fixed and like we have an electric car, so we're not paying that much for gas. Still way too high.

Way too high. It needs to be like 60% or lower. So, all right, we'll work with what we got right now. Now you mentioned preschool. That's going to be how much?

$480.

$480 a month. All right, let's put it, uh, I'm gonna put it here on subscriptions, okay? That's $730. Watch what happens. What's this number now? Fixed cost? 92%.

It went up.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

We're in an even worse position.

Yeah. In your heads, I think you think you'd be doing well. Like, hey, we actually like, um, paid off a couple hundred bucks for our phone.

Mm-hmm.

That's the story you would tell yourself.

That story is at odds with reality in the same way that the story you tell yourself is like, hey, I'm actually not spending as much as I used to. Yeah, but you're spending more than you make every single month.

Mm-hmm.

We need reality, not the story that we are telling ourselves. That story is often wrong.

I'm not sure they're actually living in any sort of financial reality right now. I think part of the reason why is that they simply have not actually felt real consequences of their financial decisions. Even being in a bunch of debt, what did they do? Consolidated the loans, which basically is buying some time. No real consequence. Cable hasn't been turned off.

Power hasn't been turned off.

So how bad is it really? This is how a lot of people think. In their case, they have made a plan. People rarely address the root behaviors that got them into trouble. Like, for example, let's say every morning I wake up at 6:30, I walk over the fridge, I take a big old stick of butter, and I rub it all over my feet. This is what I do in my morning ritual.

Okay?

I rub that shit. It's dripping with butter. And then I just go, oh, let me walk around the house. I slip and fall right into a big old spider web with a huge tarantula. And I am sitting there going, oh, woe is me. How did I end up in this spider web? And I finally escape. And so the next day, you know what I do? I do the exact same thing because I never realized I got to change my root behaviors and not rub butter on my freaking feet. That's how so many people are when it comes to money. They might even make a debt payoff plan, although almost nobody does that. But they rarely, rarely address the root cause of how they got into debt in the first place. And if you do not address the root cause, the root behaviors, you're very likely to end right back there once again. You know, one element we haven't discussed meaningfully is that they are considering having another child and moving into a house.

Where?

Where's the money going to come from? That is what we are talking about next.

You had mentioned that your goal is to consider having a third kid and get a 3-bedroom place. Where's that on the CSP?

It's nowhere. And that's part of the reason why we're here too, is like, we'd love to do that, but there's no feasible way of doing that.

Do you agree with that, Lauren?

I mean, we still really want a 3-bedroom. Right now we're in a 2-bedroom that is It's rent controlled, which is great. Uh-huh. It's in exactly the location that we want it to be. It's a pretty big apartment, but the last few months we've been dealing with a really big cockroach infestation.

Yeah.

You get an exterminator?

They've come out twice and it turns out that our neighbors also have it below us. So it's not just us. And it's really gross, really frustrating.

Ugh.

We've had to like empty out our entire kitchen and bathroom, like both bathrooms. And like, yeah, it's— I'm over it. Yeah, um, it's unhealthy.

What does the landlord say?

I mean, they've been doing what they can to take care of it. Like yesterday they came and sealed up some of the extra cracks in the kitchen. Okay. And like, I've been talking to our neighbors downstairs Um, because I'm like, well, this is a problem.

So you want out?

Yeah. Okay.

You agree?

I, I mean, I hope that it worked, the treatment, but yeah, I— there's a lot that I like about our place. Um, huge. I do like the size of our place. I do. The rent is actually very good for the area.

Yeah.

And so, um, I think like I would love to have a bigger apartment because I do feel like sometimes we're a little cramped in a 2-bedroom with the— with 2 boys now, and So I agree to an extent, but it's also something that I'm like, we can't afford it right now. And it's not because it's not a possibility. I'm not thinking about it as much.

So what's the decision?

Well, there's another issue with the apartment too. Um, every time it rains, it leaks, and it's been like that for the last 3 years to the point where now we have mold growing under.

How can you stay here with kids?

I mean, exactly.

Like, I'm usually like the guy, like, let's cut the fixed cost, but this is crazy.

Yeah, two kids and mold and roaches.

Like, and like, we're on the third floor. Like, we should not be getting roaches on the third floor.

So I'm like kind of confused. Why not get decisive about this? This sounds—

at first it was like, all right, a couple roaches.

Then I'm like, wait, what the fuck?

Then, I mean, we've been trying to get this all under control. And once we get it under control, then we were gonna start looking. But as of right now, we're not getting it under control.

So you're just like stuck.

Yeah.

You're like, you're mentally stuck right now.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think part of it is that, I mean, we do feel stuck because I can't feasibly see a way for us to move when we're paying what we currently do for rent.

Yeah, you'll have to move way far away.

Yeah.

Which we can't because we really love our son's school.

Well, we do love the school, but the other thing too is we are also close to my mom, and so— and she's not going to move.

Why don't you move in with her?

She lives with my brother.

Yeah.

It's a family affair. Okay, so you obviously have to make a decision. Like, if you're going to stay here, stay here. But like, this whole like, we want to do this, but we can't do that because of this and that, it's like driving everybody crazy. So like, I, I get the sense you all are not particularly decisive.

Hmm.

I think it's time to become, especially as parents. You, you can't just be like, we'll see.

I mean, my decision would be to stay because—

that's fine. Yeah, no explanation needed. Lauren?

I need more time before I'm gonna be ready to move out. So if we set a date—

pick the date. 2 months from now?

So I think we can do that in 2 years.

Next year?

If we can make it work, then yeah. My biggest concern is that like I really love where we live.

We don't even have enough savings to move.

I mean, that's the other thing too, is like how are we even gonna move?

Okay, I'm gonna put your CSP up on screen. I want you to show me how. Okay, what's the rent gonna be? What's a realistic number?

$4,200.

Great.

Do you, do you really learn?

It kind of depends if we're looking at an apartment or a house?

How about whatever's cheaper?

I want a house.

All right, how much?

In our area, it would probably be around $4,500 for like a townhouse.

He said $4,200.

Yeah, because I was thinking an apartment. We put $4,500 and see what we can do.

All right, fine. $4,500.

Do this.

Watch.

Mick, your job is to get us down to 60% with a 3-bedroom.

Mm-hmm.

You're now at 112%.

Yeah, can't happen.

So it's impossible for you to get a 3-bedroom house.

You were already at 92%.

You're going the wrong direction.

Mm-hmm.

I need you to accept reality. It is not possible to increase your housing costs in the next 2 years. Impossible.

Mm-hmm.

You are almost Homeless.

I don't know if you realize that. Um, we're talking about like, I like my neighborhood. I like you to have a roof with two kids. The luxury that you want is not available to you anymore. You have spent too much money.

The thing is, I don't think about those things because I'm like, this is an impossibility, so it's off my mind.

So you might as well just not pay attention and just wait until life forces you to do something.

I mean, I think we have the ability to do it, but right now that's where we're stuck. We don't know how. Right now it is really just that we're just figuring out how to make it work. I don't— that's just the way that we've always thought of it, and I guess we didn't take it seriously.

It's just so interesting because I've been thinking about how we always present ourselves as a unified team. And just from this conversation, I'm realizing that there are a lot of kinks in the communication.

Tell me, name them, please. I think you're on to something.

Just not taking the time to talk about money and to plan for the future. And we have been very reactive about all of our spending. And I think part of that is, you know, because of the trauma of him losing his job. And it's just been one thing after another ever since.

Mm-hmm.

And we just lack the confidence in ourselves to make a plan that we can stick to. We don't— I don't believe that if I set a plan that I would be able to actually carry it through.

Agency, that belief in yourself.

Okay, so making a plan, it feels like I get really in my head, I make the plan, I'm really excited about it, and then something else happens where I'm like, well, forget about that.

Can I reframe what you said in a different way, like how I might look at your exact situation but from my perspective? So I might look at it like this. I might say, wow, we both used to be in a lot of debt. We made a lot of poor money decisions. We've come a long way. I'm really proud of that. And I think that Mick and I should celebrate that. But I also know that for us to get to where we want to go, we need to completely level up. We need to level up in the way that we think about money. The way that we talk about money, behave with money, and feel about money. And finally, I used to tell myself it's one thing after another. One thing keeps coming up, and I'm flipping that to now acknowledge life is always going to throw things our way. We are going to be strong enough to deal with each and every one of them. Same situation. Different interpretation. What'd you notice?

All positive language.

Yes. What else?

It acknowledges that we are working on it and moving forward instead of being stagnant.

Never stagnant. Great.

All of this hedging and hesitancy is getting them nowhere. They desperately need to get the ball, frankly, any ball rolling in the right direction. And one of the messages that you hear me saying today is be decisive. Stop waiting. Start taking action right now. If you are ready to stop simply watching this podcast and start taking action with your money, I recommend you join my money coaching program right now. IWT.com/moneycoaching. You'll actually be shocked at how much progress you can make in just 48 hours. You can join the program. Have a plan, understand your money, and know exactly what to do next. iwt.com/moneycoaching. Now let's get back to the CSP with Lauren and Mick because there is a way to make their dreams a reality. Can you guess what it is? I built my company knowing that I wanted to work remotely and I wanted my entire team to be able to do the same. We work at home, we work from coffee shops. Sometimes we take calls while doing walks. And we all love the flexibility, but sometimes it makes it hard to sit down and type long emails, which is why we love this episode's sponsor, WhisperFlow. WhisperFlow turns the way you naturally talk into clean, ready-to-send text in any app on any device. I'm talking about Slack, Gmail, Notion, iMessage, even ChatGPT and Claude on Mac, Windows, and Android. With WhisperFlow, you just hit a hotkey speak, and the text appears way faster than typing it. Plus, it's smart. It's adaptive, so you don't send a block of huge incoherent text. And unlike other dictation apps, it corrects mistakes. It gets names right the first time, and it can format bullet points and lists on the fly. I find that particularly useful. So if you send tons of emails and messages every day, if you want to be able to capture your own ideas just by talking, Whisperflow is a no-brainer. Get 1 month of Whisperflow Pro for free at whisperflow.ai/ramit. That's whisperflow.ai/ramit. W-I-S-P-E-R-F-L-O-W dot A-I slash Ramit, or click the link in the description.

I think we can make more money. I especially think Lauren can make a lot more money than she is. Um, I don't make that much more than you, but I do make more than you currently. And I do feel that, like, your skill set is much more valuable than you've credited yourself for. And I've talked to you about it a few times, and you've been so comfortable in your job that I've stopped asking because you haven't moved on it. You could be making twice as much as what you're making with what you can do.

My boss has called me the Swiss Army knife. Of the office. My title is Special Projects Manager. Um, they're paying for me to get a certification in project management, so like, whatever. But I basically have created a situation for myself where I have such a diverse skill set because I also do web development I do accounting, I do like everything, event planning. And he's been trying to encourage me to look for something that pays more. But we work with like nonprofits, and I feel like I am doing something positive for the world by, you know, creating creating things for these associations that we work with. It's really fulfilling. I have a lot of flexibility in my schedule. I can like pretty much set my own schedule. If I need overtime, I just say, hey, I need some overtime to finish, finish this, and they're like, okay, you got it. But it just doesn't make as much as I potentially could. Like, I could easily, with my skill set, make six figures. I mean, I don't know about in this job market, but it seems like the two of you are very comfortable. It's scary when this is like the only job that I've had. It was my college job and it's been stable.

Would you like to see how much you'd have to make?

Yeah, sure.

What's realistic right now? So each of you makes— I mean, together you make $150K, which is a good Income. I'm very open when it's feasible to get like a big raise. I'm always like, negotiate, get a new job. I mean, tough right now.

I'm hourly.

Uh-huh.

I've been working at the same place for 16 years. I get about a 2% raise every year. They also match 401, which is the reason that I have a 401.

Wait a minute, they match your 401 up to what percent?

4%.

But you've only been getting 2% increases for the last 16 years?

I mean, there was one point where I went to them and I told them that I needed a significant increase. Um, they gave me, I want to say, like, $6,000 increase that year, and then it's still just been 2% since then.

Do you all think it's feasible to increase your income enough?

Well, I was gonna say that I also do overtime, okay, because I work at events. And I've been asking for more opportunities to work overtime. Good. So like next week I'm going to a conference where I'll be working 12-hour days.

Yeah. So how much are you— is your income going to go up?

Realistically, without burning myself out, I could probably make another $5,000.

Per what?

Per year.

Per year. So let's call it $350. So we'll call it $4,110. I'm just ballparking here, but it's in the ballpark. Watch the number on fixed costs. It's currently 111%. It went to 108%.

I guess I'll start looking.

Well, I mean, I, I, from what I'm seeing, like, I don't see a feasible way for us to move unless we're making more money. I mean, we cut back as much as we could and we're still spending way too much.

Yeah.

With the amount of money that we make now, like, you know, this— a salary where we live, if we were in who knows where, could go a long way. But one, I'm not gonna— I don't work remote, so I, I can't move away from my job. But I also, I, I do think that's part of where we are stuck, is that maybe it's not— we're not being ambitious enough with our own careers sometimes.

So I have a question for you. At what point would you feel comfortable asking for a raise? Um, because he's director of fundraising. You're director of fundraising?

I—

director role? Yeah, I think 80.

Yeah, I know. I, um, I think I'm in a really unique situation where I am at my work, and until I can produce the results that I'd like, I'm not going to feel comfortable asking for a raise at work. I'm a fundraiser, so I have to raise funds to justify my own role. So I would have to be earning enough for my organization in order to justify asking for more money.

Do you know that you won't receive it?

Yes.

100%.

Probably would be 2 or 3 years down the line before I would even attempt it, honestly. It's the whole reason that I haven't been even thinking about it because in my mind it's like, it's not possible.

I also, we haven't mentioned that his base pay is like $80,000 and he has the potential of earning up to $20,000 in bonuses. So, like, even if you ask about a raise and they say no, there's still the potential for you to get that bonus. So like, what can I do to support you to—

Well, I did get a, I did get a bonus though.

Well, can I finish my question? What can I do to support you to get the maximum bonus? Because what you got was like He got like $5,000.

I don't know that you can do more to help me with it.

So, okay, so we're done. So it's not happening. So now the question is, do you stay in your place? Let's take that number down. What is it, 2580 or 88%? Still too high. Either you downsize, move further away, and/or we need to cut more costs.

I don't see us moving somewhere far.

I added, uh, 15% from the CSP. And I would like to fix that because a couple in your situation, you should not be spending $1,000 on miscellaneous. I'll give you $250 in case something comes up. We're down to 79%.

Okay.

What else? How bold of decisions do you want to make? I actually don't get the sense that you want to get aggressive.

I'm so scared.

Scared of?

Our lifestyle changing.

Yeah.

Considerably. Yeah.

So you're scared of your lifestyle changing and you would prefer to keep it the same?

Well, 'cause like the groceries, I do all the grocery shopping and the meal planning and I plan all the meals for the week and I don't buy organic. I—

That is not true. That is not true. Okay.

I get organic bananas. And milk, and that's about it.

What am I hearing from you? You're scared of what?

Well, with the groceries, because I work from home and I'm with our 2-year-old all day, convenience foods are really important because I can barely even think of what to make myself for lunch.

Yeah.

Um, so having quick options that are already ready for my toddler is like, I need it for my mental health.

I guess I'm going to say something that's going to be uncomfortable to hear.

Yeah.

Which is, um, I can't even appreciate how hard it is to be at home with a 2-year-old, and yet I still need you to find a solution to this because the money you have right now, this not working.

You will end up without a house. You will end up without enough money in the bank. It will be gone.

And respectfully, that does not really concern me. Your need for pre-made food is just irrelevant when we are talking about the health of your family. So I'm not saying it's you, you're a bad— I'm not saying that. Find a solution. Let's do it right now.

Mm-hmm.

What is it going to be?

I think the cuts that you put up there are reasonable in terms of like what we can do. Yes. In terms of our rent, I don't— it'd be great to move somewhere less expensive, but there's not a lot of places around that are less expensive.

If you make no changes, or you nibble around the edges, yeah, what happens?

We just stay in the same situation that we're in.

And your tires will get flat and something will come up and you will continue going on through life, one thing coming up after another. Slowly you're reacting, you'll wear down your savings, you'll tap into your investments, you'll go back into debt. That'll keep going for a while, that'll become unsustainable, and then it gets dangerous.

Yeah. Yeah.

This is a pretty frustrating conversation for me, in part because I can see there are so many different ways for them to get out of this financial mess and to actually start building some serious stability. But the thing is, I can't make them see it. And if I can't make them see it, I certainly cannot make them do it. It would be really easy for me to just be like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Here's the 7 things I would do. It's so easy. It's going to be hard, but you could do it. It will just go right over their heads. I am intentionally going slow. I'm actually intentionally sitting in the frustration because I want them to come to the conclusion themselves. What I try to do here is to get them together to see where they are and then to see a path forward. The problem is with this couple, they're not even willing to take an honest look at where they are.

So we can't even get to where they want to go. I am not going to save you.

You two will save you or you will sink.

Mm-hmm.

I don't even know why you think you need more money. Like, what do you get? Does anybody know?

Well, yeah, the first thing is, well, there's two things, and these are really the— comes down to the only two things that we want, which is a larger apartment.

Yeah.

And to save more.

That's it.

Great.

So if you make an extra $2,000 a month, what would happen to it?

That's going to go to rent and it's going to go to savings.

Can't go to both. You don't have enough. I think that right now there's no clear vision. It's just like, uh, this is like kind of bad. Like, we should do something. So everyone's just pulling out random jabs to like, you make more money. No, you make more money. But like, if you truly understood the severity of your situation and you understood a path, then you would both be on board and you'd both be like, hey, one way or another, we as a household need to make $200,000 a year. But right now it's just you do this. No, you do this. I can't do it. Okay, fine. End of story. You don't have a why. You don't understand your numbers. So you're stuck in the tactical weeds.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I think it's— we probably need to set a goal with a timeline. So if we don't have a timeline, then there's no— there's no tackling it because we don't understand when it needs to happen.

It needs to happen now. You need to increase your household income now. You need to cut your expenses and keep them going lower, not higher. But the way you've set your life up is that they're actually only going higher. Preschool, et cetera, et cetera. And we haven't even talked about the inability to say no to the kids. Like, it is— you have to do 50 things right if you want to stay living in the same place because of what you have locked yourself into. And that seems to me to be very difficult. Here are your options as I see it. One or both of you could get a salary increase or switch jobs. That'd be great. That would actually help a lot. A lot. If one of you did that and made ballpark an extra $30,000, $40,000, that would be amazing. One or both of you combined. Your savings need to be bulked up, like, massively. Right now you have $5,000 in savings. You really should have like $42,000 in savings. I would not even entertain the idea of moving until you had at least a year's worth, $70,000 of savings. I wouldn't even think about it. If I lived in a rent-controlled place in a neighborhood you like, that's it. Like, we're not moving. And I'm sorry about the roaches. And the mold, I would seriously consider what you can do about that. Put more pressure on the landlord, start documenting things, etc. But either you move to a way cheaper place, which probably means not in LA.

Yeah.

So you got to go, or you're there, you determine that it is safe, and that's it. There's no discussion about a 3-bedroom house. It's not happening, not for the next 5 to 10 years. This is a reason why I've been like a little impatient with the stories that you are telling yourself about all the reasons you can't. You will be poor in the near term.

Mm-hmm.

You may lose your housing and you will certainly be poor in the long term. So I think the kind of like it's a bit of like a sitcom environment right now. There's a lot of kind of jokes and stuff and like, I think it's funny. But it's not that funny, actually. I want respect for money. I want respect for your family. So what do you want to do, Lauren? I see you're thinking here.

I mean, my first step is going to be— well, our first step is going to be setting a time to sit down, finish combining our accounts.

Okay.

Make sure that both of us have visibility on everything. We set a new conscious spending plan where we cut our expenses.

Mm-hmm.

I think coming up with some guardrails in advance would be helpful because sometimes we forget where the line is.

I love that. I love guardrails. I love like signs that make it very clear. It's either a yes or no, and I don't have to decide because if it's up to me, I want to get it all. That's how it works.

That's how money is taught.

Both of us, um, ask for a raise. And if you don't get it, look for other opportunities.

Yes.

One way or another, the household income has to go up, and it has to go up to a point where your fixed costs are at 60% or below. It's going to be hard. You've locked yourself in. You may have to really get creative. One car, so many different things you may have to do. Food, def— all the easy stuff has to be done decisively. Like, there can't be any discussion about that. Yeah, but there's hard stuff to be done.

Yeah, even with the preschool, it's hard because we, we have a co-op preschool because it's the cheapest option. Preschool is expensive.

Yeah, it's expensive. You, you have structurally set yourself up to have massive fixed costs. That's what you got. Even though you have a low rent, everything around you is expensive. Groceries are expensive, transportation is expensive. That, like, part of what I'm trying to encourage you to do is accept reality. If you choose to live there, then you need to make more. That's it. End of story. And if it means working weekends and you're tired, that's life. It's a tough, it's a tough situation, I understand. But I would rather be the one to tell you than to have you tread water. One thing, one step forward, two steps back, and then one day just It's too much. What questions do you have?

Once we get out of this, I have no idea what to do next.

Yeah, good question. Well, I think, you know, for me, step one, especially if I'm a parent of two, is I want stability. Stability comes in the form of a big fat savings account. $10,000, then $25,000, then $70,000. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And what that allows is that when life comes at you, a medical expense, something you didn't predict, you have that money to fall back on. When you have that, or at least you're working towards it, you don't have to have $70K in the bank, but you have to have a plan where, you know, just like your debt payoff, when will we have 12 months of emergency fund. All the other stuff comes later. I just think first things first is you need stability.

Mm-hmm.

I think sometimes people watch this podcast because they expect that somebody is going to come in here with a problem, I'm going to do some cool math magic, and then they're going to walk out totally successful.

That's actually not the point of this podcast.

The point of this podcast is to highlight real stories from real people behind closed doors. Sometimes we make a radical transformation. Amazing. I love it. Sometimes we make no progress. I also love that because each of those couples gets to share their story. So if I were you watching this, listening to this, I would not evaluate an episode based on how big of a progress change do they make. I wouldn't even evaluate it based on how much you like a couple. I would evaluate each episode based on what's one thing that I can take away that I learned? What is one thing that surprised me that I might actually be doing that I can take away and apply to my own relationship? I'm wishing the absolute best for Lauren and Mick. I am hoping that they come up with a plan and that they get a lot of help because they're in a really serious situation. And it will take big changes made very quickly in order for them to get out of it.

Now let's check out their follow-ups.

So it's been about a week since our conversation with Ramit Sethi, and it's time for a little update. Mick and I have decided to implement weekly conversations where we talk about all the bills that are about to be paid, how we're doing with our savings goals, things like that. Um, and like in all those conversations that we've had so far, we realized that the numbers that we used on the podcast weren't entirely accurate. We also don't think that that 15% miscellaneous is a real number. Um, we looked into our subscriptions, we cut a bunch, but also realized that we weren't actually paying as much as we thought we were. I kind of estimated high, so That number has been cut by like $200 a month. Um, and then through all of these conversations, we agreed that our conversation with Ramit Sethi lacked a lot of context. We are not in agreement about the solutions that Ramit Sethi gave us. We don't think that they're realistic for our situation. We also don't think that Ramit Sethi paid enough credence to our ADHD diagnoses and really are disappointed about the lack of homework that he did about ADHD as it affects so many millennials, which is his target demographic. Um, so we're creating our own plan, um, and the biggest takeaway is really just to keep talking about money and, um, not make it a taboo topic. So I'm really excited. I think that Mick and I are in a really good place, and with a little bit of time and effort, I think that we're going to continue to grow financially and become a well-oiled machine. And I'm really excited to not have any more anxiety about money.

Thanks again for having us on your podcast. It really was an eye-opening experience, albeit sometimes a little bit more intense than I anticipated. I think the one real big positive takeaway from this experience is that Lauren and I have been making consistent time to speak about our finances. We dove deep into the details, um, of what we're spending and pleasantly surprised by the fact that, um, We're spending a lot less on our fixed costs than we had originally estimated, uh, both before the podcast and during the podcast. Um, we also were able to cut back some really simple things that we just didn't need and didn't realize we were paying, um, which was a great thing. I think one thing I really wish that we did dive a little bit deeper into during the podcast was, regarding the fact that Lauren and I both have ADHD. And I think folks that, um, also have it or have other forms of neurodivergency have very unique spending habits, um, because of it. And I felt that it was a little bit glossed over and dismissed, uh, which I was a bit disappointed by. Hopefully in the future, um, there can either be a follow-up or you might be able to do a little bit more work into how folks that have ADHD spend to have a more nuanced conversation. I also felt like certain things regarding parenthood or pets were also a little bit dismissed or not portrayed in an accurate or entirely realistic way that I wish they were. Ultimately, I think this was a positive experience for Lauren and I because we were able to kind of open those doors of communication and really look into exactly what we're spending and create clear goals for ourselves that weren't necessarily something just like move into a different neighborhood or make more money. While both of those things would be great, I don't think they're entirely realistic for our situation. So we've been able to double down and figure out, you know, what we've been doing that's good, cut back on some of the things that we didn't even realize we, um, were spending on and didn't need and, and make some good decisions going forward.

Interesting follow-ups.

I appreciate Lauren and Mick sending the follow-ups. I appreciate them making some changes. And I want to let you know that I think it's very courageous for anyone to come on the Money for Couples show. As you can see from the diverse types of guests that we have on this show, it is personally important to me that we have people from all different walks of life— socioeconomic, gender, sexual orientation, geography, all of it. Honestly, you have a point. If you have ADHD, things that other people take for granted come much harder to you. And many people don't understand that. So often they look down at people and they say, why don't you just do this? It's not that hard. Well, actually, if you have ADHD, it can be quite hard. With that said, I am a little surprised by some of the feedback and some of the advice that they gave me. Now, I'm not an expert in ADHD diagnoses, but I absolutely acknowledge that it affects the way that we manage our money. That's one of the reasons that I invited a friend of mine, Dr. Christine Hargrove, to come to our money coaching program and give a talk about ADHD and money. That is among many of the other programs that we have for all of our money coaching members. But I'm not an expert in ADHD diagnoses, nor will I ever be. And so therefore, it is your responsibility to manage your ADHD, not to expect me to become an expert. I do think that some of us have certain characteristics that make managing money or becoming healthier or staying connected to our family harder than for others. But the fact is, we have to acknowledge that and we still have to find a way to make it work. In other words, pointing at ADHD and saying, this is why we are not able to manage our money. That just doesn't fly with me. Yes, it exists. Yes, it's hard, but you still got to find a way to succeed. And that may be by consulting doctors, coaches. There are tons of resources out there. It may not be here, but my goal for you would be to come here and adapt the lessons you learn for your own situation. So I hope the best for Lauren and Mick. I want to see big changes because this is a serious situation. But I want to emphasize that it's got to come from you. Not from me. Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply, or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&As, and an amazing, huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.