28. “What if we divorce and I end up homeless like my mom?”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered, how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question? There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast, although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to Find an Extra Thousand dollars a Month and how to Do a Rich Life annual review. Plus we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching I am the result.

Of my mom's sacrifices and I can be the American dream that she wanted. But I want to be different than the situation that my mom had.

But you already are. You are different. Your mom never had a million dollars.

It doesn't feel like a lot of money.

Try this one out. One day when I'm an old lady, I might be kicked out on the street in the rain, having to take care of my children with one umbrella and a backpack and that's it. Katie, did you ever receive that message?

Yeah, because my dad did exactly that.

Most people believe that once they have more money, they'll stop fighting about it, they'll stop being stressed about it.

There's this idea that if you earn.

25% more or 50% more, suddenly all of your financial problems will disappear. I want to show you that that's not true. Your feelings about money are highly uncorrelated with how much money you have in the bank. On today's episode, you get to hear from a couple who are high earners, yet they still have tension around money. Meet Katie and Sean. She's 30. He's 32.

And they're high earners.

They make about $460,000 a year together. The reason they came to me was an argument about a Roomba.

They want to buy a second Roomba.

And it's causing some tension.

So as you listen to today's episode, I want you to treat it like a crystal ball. Like I said, some of you really believe that if you made $10,000 more or $50,000 more, suddenly life would be a utopia. Katie and Sean are a living example that that's not true. This should be alarming to you. It should set off red flags and make you ask yourself, wait a second. If I keep telling myself that I just need to have a little more money, yet this couple has a ton of money and they still fight, what does that mean for me? What does it mean for us? And if merely having more money won't make me feel safer or more generous or happier, what am I supposed to do about it? I'm Ramit Sethi and this is I will teach you to be rich.

So what was the fight yesterday about?

I have the responsibility of vacuum the house. We have a Roomba. It's an older model, it vacuums the house, but I have to empty the bin maybe once, sometimes twice because we have two dogs and a cat and there's just so much fur and I'm just not able to get to it every day. And there is a new Roomba that has a reservoir and we don't have to clean it out so often. Maybe once a week, maybe every other week. And that for me, I feel like it would save me a lot of time. And she doesn't feel like that is a good purchase, a good return on investment.

How much is this Roomba?

$600.

So my perspective on the Roomba is we already have two perfectly working Roombas. One's upstairs, one's downstairs. The Roomba isn't something that I think we need just for the small feature of having a brand new res, like a reservoir. Maybe if one was broken, then, you know, I would be open to getting another one. But because we already have two perfectly fine working ones, I don't think that we actually need it. And we also have a cleaner that comes every other week. So, you know, it's not like Sean is the only person that cleans the house. Like, I feel like I help clean. The responsibility of vacuuming isn't all on him. Maybe with the Roomba, like emptying it out and that chore falls on him, but I just feel like there's other priorities in our lives that would justify the cost of 600, $700 that we would spend on a Roomba that we don't necessarily have yet.

What else would be those priorities?

Well, I'm currently pregnant, so I'm looking at strollers, I'm looking at car seats, I'm looking at cribs. I'm looking at all the things that we would need to bring a baby into this world. The incremental benefit is not worth the $700 to me.

You think it's worth it to Sean?

Yes, but I also don't think he thinks about the other things that are needed in our lives because he relies on me heavily to take care of those things.

Everything else, like a stroller, Is that what we're talking about?

Stroller? All those smaller things.

If you buy this Roomba, are you not going to be able to afford a stroller?

No. I mean, well, yes, we would still be able to afford both things. I think we'll be able to afford everything else. I just. I'm just thinking ahead that, you know, could that money be used somewhere else? Could we be saving it or investing it or using it for our child's 529 plan that I intend on opening? It doesn't alleviate the stress that I have when it comes to the other things that I'm thinking like that I'm thinking about or that I'm trying to plan for.

Do you think it's possible that your stress has nothing to do with the Roomba?

I know that my stress has nothing to do with the Roomba.

Then how come you're so fixated on the Roomba?

Because that's what he's comfortable about talking about. And so I try to have him understand why I have a problem with the Roomba by kind of having it be a segue into the other things that I'm concerned and worried about.

Did you catch that?

Katie said, I know that the real problem isn't the Roomba, but I use the Roomba to hint about what the real problem is. Which, by the way, I actually don't know what the real problem is. And he definitely doesn't know what the real problem is. You see the level of hinting and confusion in Katie's response. A lot of people listening to this.

Are like, what is happening right now? If we can afford the Roomba and.

I want another Roomba, I'm going to buy the Roomba.

What's next?

So what is really going on here? Well, there are lots of clues in Katie's response? Obviously, this is not about the money. They can easily afford it. It's also not about the roi. ROI is just a code word that highly educated people use to justify their emotions. Roombas don't provide an roi, they're a robot. It's okay to buy something just because you want it. In fact, the higher your income is, the higher your net worth is, the more things you can buy just because you want them. You think the luxury hotels I stay at provide an roi?

No, they're just awesome.

Katie wrote me a story in her application to be on this podcast that explains a little bit about why she's so focused on savings and why she's so concerned with early retirement.

We did a three week trip to Southeast Asia. We were in Siem Reap, and everyone kind of knows that picturesque picture of Angkor Wat over the reflection over the water. And in order to do that, you have to wake up at 4am, take a tuk tuk, get to the temple, and then they let people in around 4:30, 5:00 in the morning. And you kind of have to run to get a really good spot to see the reflection when the sun rises and everything. And we get there and we're waiting for the sunrise and hundreds of people are piling in. And I noticed this little group of like older people, probably 70s, 80s, who do one of those like Globus tours, tour bus type of situations. And there was this little old lady and at first I, I smelt it and she goes, oh my God, I'm having diarrhea. And she had Traveler's Diarrhea at 5:30am at one of the most picturesque places in Cambodia. And I was just thinking to myself, like, this poor little old lady was wearing white pants and wanting to see a one. Basically a once in a lifetime opportunity. And she had to leave with a couple of her friends to get back to the bus, which walking there would be take 30, 40 minutes. She totally missed sunrise. Missed one of the most, you know, probably one of the main reasons why she went on this, you know, highlights of Cambodia trip. And I just thought to myself, you know, I never want to be in that situation where I'm 80 years old and missing one of the once in a lifetime opportunities because of a medical emergency or, you know, because I chose to do a tour that was not as convenient as how I currently like to travel. And so that kind of lit a fire under my belly. And I was like, I don't want to work until I'm like 65 and have to feel like I have to travel that way in order to see the world. Like I want to work hard now and then retire When I'm young, 50, 55, ideally, yeah.

You wrote I don't want to shit myself at Anchor Watt when I'm 80. I want to retire at 50.

Yes, exactly.

Now, when I first read that story in the application, it was not a.

Story that I expected to read.

But as I thought about Katie and her spending behavior, I realized this story, while very evocative, might be how she justifies her behavior to herself. But I don't really buy it. I don't think that it was this aha moment at Angkor Wat that caused her to realize that she needs to save more money. The sort of spending behavior that she has ingrained, it's not something that happens from just one light bulb moment. I wanted to help her see that she enjoys spending her money. So I did a little exercise with Katie. I asked her to point out something she bought just because she wanted it. And I've done this exercise before. Usually it's pretty easy to find something and people laugh as they realize, yeah, actually I can buy things that I like. Unfortunately, my exercise did not go like I expected it to.

Real question for you.

Do you know how often you're supposed.

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Ramit.

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What kind of cell phone do you have?

I have an iPhone.

IPhone, what?

12?

Well, it only has a minor increase on the previous camera and incremental storage upgrade. If you really compare the stats, it's not worth it.

Well, the last cell phone I had or the cell phone that I got before was 5 years old.

So, I mean, so I'm not sure you're getting the analogy here. I told you, your cell phone's not worth it. Do you think your cell phone's worth it?

For the cause, I mean. No.

No. Then why did you get it?

Because I know that I'm going to buy a new phone and then I probably won't get another phone for another five years.

Okay. Do you have any nice clothes or handbags?

Yes.

What's an example of one?

I have a Gucci bag that I recently got for my birthday.

Ooh, very nice. Now, did you buy that or was it gifted to you?

Sean bought it for me for my birthday.

Okay. Okay, that's cool. What about one you bought with your own money? Clothing piece or handbag?

I can't really think of an example where I've spent extravagantly on something just for myself of that caliber.

Anything else? Not even clothes or handbags? Anything. Look around you. What's in your life that's nice?

I have a cricket.

What? What is that?

It's one of Those things that, you know, you can cut vinyl or cut, like, materials with. Like, you can make the little signs and stickers and stuff.

This is my worst nightmare. We can't go down this path. I can't talk about dioramas and stuff. That gave me nightmares from school. Hey, just look at your headphones. What brand are those headphones?

They're Beats.

Okay. That's a pretty nice pair of headphones. Did you buy that?

No, they were free.

Do you buy anything you spend your money on? Anything?

Yes. I feel like it's things that we.

Need, so it's interesting that you've mentioned this concept of we don't need the Roomba. I will agree with you. You don't need a third Roomba. Sean, can you agree to that as well?

I don't need it. No.

Okay.

I don't need it.

Everybody agrees we don't need it. However, you didn't need the iPhone 12. Why did you get it?

Because I needed a new phone.

Well, you could have got a cheaper phone. You could have got a flip phone. You could have got a used phone. Why that?

Well, I had an Android before.

And you think it's okay to buy something just because you want it?

Yes, but I tend to want to shop around for it first and then sell, find the best deal for it.

Why? What do you get out of that?

Like, I could be using the difference on something else. So if I could get, you know, three things that are supposed to total $1,000, and I get it for $700, and I have another $300 to spend, where else that we need to spend the money on?

You need, or maybe you want to.

Spend the money on need, like groceries or car payment or something like that.

You talk as if you're scrimping and pinching or you're looking for how to cover the cost of this stroller, but you make almost half a million dollars a year. Do you notice that the words you use to describe your purchases are not in sync with your financial situation?

Yes, and I know why. Because we save roughly 45 to 50% of our income every year. And so it does feel like we live paycheck to paycheck. And I don't like going into our savings account in order to pay for things that I don't feel like we need, like the Roomba.

How did you grow up with money? Tell me about your upbringing.

I had a very weird upbringing with money. My dad had a lot of money. He made his money through real estate investing in the stock market, and he Married my mom and brought my mom over from the Philippines. And I didn't see him financially taking care of my mom. He took care of us kids. And not to get into the weeds about what happened with my family, but by the time I got into college, my mom was essentially homeless and she wasn't taken care of. And so now she works a minimum wage job and doesn't have any money saved for retirement. I'm very protective and very like, I'm the one that's taking care of her. And so I saw this weird dynamic where one parent had a lot of money and very frugal and cheap, and then the other one, not a lot of money. And every dime that she had, it went to bringing her family and taking care of her family. I kind of learned it was like every man for himself type of thing. And so that's why I feel like I'm very strategic and I try to be very smart with money because I don't want to be in a situation.

Where.

I'm, God forbid, Sean is, you know, we get a divorce or whatever, and I'm in the same situation that my mother was and I can't take care of myself. I have this horde mentality when it comes to money.

There's a lot of context behind this haunting story. We need to take a second and talk about gender issues. Of the many women I've spoken to about money psychology, about 75% of them have the same primary fear. Being left by their husband in their 50s or 60s. For a younger woman being left with nothing, the visual here is a woman standing in the rain with her kids with nothing but a single bag on her back. And after hearing this 20 or 30 times when speaking to women in heterosexual relationships, I was like, is there a book that I miss reading? Is there some movie scene that everybody in America saw except for me? Even my wife had this fear. When we were discussing our prenup, this came up and it really frustrated me because I had no intention of ever leaving her in the rain with no money. And my response was to get really mathematical. Look at the spreadsheet. It's literally impossible for you to have.

Nothing.

That did not work.

That's one of the reasons I started this podcast. I wish I would have known how to handle this specific fear, which so many people in so many other relationships have also encountered. Now, there are some historical reasons for this. Of the women who told me about this, many of them have a personal story or some distant relative who this actually happened to. We should remember that in Our lifetimes. Many women are or were stay at home moms who were financially dependent on their husbands. So there is some real context for this fear. And in Katie's case, this is actually what happened, down to the exact example of her mom being left with no money. So Katie has every reason in the world to. To feel scared and nervous about money. You can see this family history, this scarcity of money and fear and focus on what can go wrong leaking out in so many things. Katie says how she doesn't buy anything unless it has an ROI, how she has a 50% savings rate. Even this entire argument about a Roomba. It's not about the Roomba. It's about a much deeper set of feelings and experiences with money.

Sean, do you think that yours and Katie's behavior is congruent with your financial situation?

No, I think we can afford a Roomba. I think. I think in the back of both our minds, in her mind more probably is the planning for early retirement. And I think that is a forcing function for us to look at money. And I guess not painting a picture, but then just be more scrutiny, have more scrutiny in how we spend our money.

It is penny pinching. It is penny pinching to be. How many fights have you had about this, Roomba? One, two? How many?

Four or five?

Five fights over a $600 expenditure. You realize it's a decimal rounding error for your net worth. It's a rounding error. And instead you're so focused on this goal 20 years from now. And Katie, you yourself acknowledged you tend to be obsessive about money. Can I suggest that maybe early retirement for you has another reason? What does early retirement signify to you, Katie?

That I made it.

And what does that mean?

That I am the result of my mom's sacrifices and that I can.

Be.

The American dream that she wanted. And I'm sure I'm already that for her. I have a good paying job. We have, you know, we make good money. But I don't want. I want to be different than what? This, than the situation that my mom had.

But you are different. Your mom never had a million dollars.

Yeah.

Two of you do. I mean, you yourself make $100,000. Katie, that's a lot of money.

It doesn't feel like a lot of money.

Exactly my point. Can I suggest to you that your feelings will not change when you go through early retirement?

I can see that. I can see that. I know that these feelings will follow me for a really long time.

Yeah. A lot of times people who choose early retirement there's something much deeper behind it. I think that early retirement to you signifies I have enough. You think that's possible?

Mm, yes, I think. But I think for me, where I. I might feel like I don't have enough and Sean has enough is that I still don't see our money or the money that we have. And the numbers that are at the bottom of my net worth or our net worth, it's not mine, it's Sean's because He makes nearly 70, you know, more than 75% of the income.

Notice this moment. We're really seeing the pieces of the puzzle connect. This should be a huge aha moment to Katie, but she just did something really interesting. She skipped over the whole point. She said, yeah, that's possible. And then she instantly pivoted to another reason that she doesn't feel good about money. If it's not early retirement, it's seeing the money. If she sees their money, it'll be Sean making more income. If they both make the same income, it'll be something else. People, especially highly educated people, are very good at making logical arguments. But this isn't a math problem. You can tell this isn't a math problem because when I point out her income and when she realizes that, oh, it's probably not that, she unconsciously shifts the goalposts to another problem. Until Katie grapples with her money psychology, there's always going to be another reason to feel unsafe. But you can't just tell someone, gotta master your money psychology. They're like, okay, Ramit, what the hell does that mean? What do I do? You have to get specific. You have to get actionable, tactical. You have to connect what's going on deep down and what went on in their lives with the exact problem that they're talking about today. So Katie mentioned that she doesn't see the numbers in their relationship. Interestingly, Katie also handles a lot of the planning and administration within their relationship. And she's mentioned this is draining to her. So she'll do a bunch of homework on something to buy, and then Sean will just agree with her, which actually frustrates her. This is the final piece of the puzzle.

I'm exhausted about it. I would love for Sean to, you know, take the initiative to research and investigate, you know, things that we need and kind of see how we would be able to afford those things. Because if I'm doing it for all of, you know, I'm. I have a laundry list of things that I feel like that we need and that I need to look into. And then I bring it to him, and he's like, okay, whatever. It doesn't sound like he cares.

And because he doesn't care, what does that mean for you?

I mean, if I want to look down at the root cause, it's that he doesn't care about our lives and our future, you know, that these things don't really mean that much to him and that there's. Then there's really no point that I should be doing it.

You ever to ever do the love languages test?

Yes.

What are you. Words of affirmation, Katie?

Yes.

Yeah. And Sean acts of service, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

All right.

I mean, it's not like it's a secret. You both telegraph it from a mile away. That's totally fine. Guess what? My wife and I are exactly the same in our relationship. Exactly.

I want to feel appreciated for, you know, the. The hard work that I put into everything from a stinking toaster to how we're going to retire at 50. There's varying levels of. Of research that I go into each individual one. But ultimately, I just want to be thanked for the work that I do do because I appreciate that Sean works so much and he brings so much money in. But I don't want to feel like an assistant. I want to feel like a partner, and I want to feel like we're on the same page.

But you come to him saying, this is what I think we should do. Seems like he's answering in a way that makes sense to him. He's saying, okay, I trust you. You've made good judgments. Sounds good to me. What would you want him to respond with?

I would want him to ask, you know, oh, what made you want to come to this decision? Or is there a YouTube video review that you saw, you know, to be a little bit more inquisitive about the things that I look into, because a lot of it I find very interesting, and it doesn't sound. It doesn't seem like there's any conversation about it. And so I do all the hard work and I put forth all the effort, and then he gets to reap the benefits of my hard work.

What do you think about that now, in retrospect?

That I need to be a lot more straightforward with him about what I want. He always says, I'm not a mind reader. And so I try to do better about communicating what I want and I need from him. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

That's awesome.

That's awesome. I think this is just a great reminder to Be upfront with your desires. In fact, let's go a little bit deeper. How would you like to be appreciated? What exactly do you want Sean to say to you when you come to him with this stroller spreadsheet?

Maybe some recognition of, like, wow, this must have taken a lot of time to put all of this together. What features are you looking for? What's your favorite stroller? Which one did you pick and why?

Oh, my God. This is too good. You know what? We just got to do this live on the spot. Okay, Katie, I know you have some secret spreadsheets that you haven't yet presented to Sean, but you've been hiding them in your back pocket. Okay, what is it?

A stroller?

A coffee maker? What is it that you've been researching lately?

The car seat.

Car seat.

Katie, tell him what your recommendation is, and then, Sean, you know what she's looking for. Go ahead.

I found a car seat that I think we should pick. Pick? It's the nuna pipa light RX in the color timber.

Wow, that sounds great. Katie, did you do a lot of research for this?

Yes, I watched a lot of YouTube videos and read a lot of articles.

Wow, that's. That's. That's great. I think that's a lot more investment than I have put into this and appreciate the suggestion, and I trust. Trust your judgment. I think this is sounds. This sounds great. Do you want to show me more about the features that you saw?

Okay. I have a YouTube video that I think you would appreciate and, like.

Great. Let's look at it together.

Okay.

Okay.

How'd that feel?

Really awkward.

Yeah, it's a little contrived. I get it. But did you notice anything that happened differently in that scenario than how it would normally happen? What was it, Katie?

He talked a lot more.

Wow, Sean, you said like, 10 words in that.

That's more.

All right, we gotta. We got a terse guy over here. But don't worry, I'm gonna. I'm gonna work with that. So what? Normally, Katie, what would have happened?

He would have said okay.

That's not even a full word. Oh, it's two letters. Okay. Yeah, but, Sean, you know, all jokes aside, why would you have only said okay in the past?

I trust her. Her judgment generally. So, yeah, she comes and says that we need this. This is what we can afford, and this is the best option for us. I agree with her, and I think it's more efficient.

Okay, I have to cut in here.

Attention all tech bros. Also, anyone in the fire community. Basically, any man, fucking listen to this part. A lot of you dorks are obsessed with efficiency. You love logic. Show me the compound interest. And you wonder why it doesn't get the kind of responses you want. Here Sean is calmly explaining that he would normally listen To Katie present 2 months of work, 13 spreadsheets, 14 ROI comparisons, all rolling up to a single recommendation for a car seat. And his normal response would be, okay, I love that. When I asked him why, he goes, I trust her judgment. I agree with her. To him, he's being totally logical. His response makes total sense. But it's not working. Katie is so frustrated, she asked to talk to me on a three hour podcast. Guys, you got to realize that efficiency is not always the best play to make. Yes, there's a time and a place for it, but if that's the only note you know how to play, especially with your romantic partner, then it can invisibly chip away at the bond in your relationship. My favorite part of this rant is that I'm screaming at all of you efficiency dorks, but deep down, I'm built the same way. I love this stuff. I love logic. I told my wife about our financial model, how cool it is. I love it. But there's a fine line between being helpful and being destructive. Okay, back to Sean.

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And then that she does do a lot of the research already and she, my mind she may have wanted me to go and do more research and for me, I don't, I don't feel that duplicate work would have been a good use of both of our times. But now I see seems like it isn't. Is that this wasn't what she wanted.

Yeah.

And yeah.

You know Sean, when you, when you give your wife a hug or your parents or your soon to be child, sometimes it's not about how efficient the hug is. Right. There are other issues at play. And listen, just like you, you like convenience, I like convenience. You like efficiency, I love efficiency. I'm always thinking about this stuff, but I also know that sometimes we have to play a totally different game. Right? So when we're talking to a loved one, a lot of times it's like, okay, we can get through this quick, let's just jump to the meat. But sometimes we have to soften it up. We have to ask a lot of questions. And it turns out that actually is. It's not about efficiency, but it's about effective communication. And I appreciate Sean, you recognizing that, Katie, I appreciate you being really open about what you need. You told him exactly what you want him to say. Now, he knows. He didn't know this before, so that's pretty cool. You know, when I was speaking to my wife back then, my fiance, about prenup, we went through this long set of discussions about a prenup. At first, it was pretty easy. Then it got really hard. And I have to tell you something that really, really drove me crazy, and that was this scarcity idea that somehow a number of women receive, but men never hear it, and that is that one day when I'm an old lady, I might be kicked out on the street in the rain, having to take care of my children with one umbrella and a backpack, and that's it. Katie, did you ever receive that message?

Yeah, because my dad did exactly that.

Yeah. And so what are the consequences of that? How do you think that has affected your views on finance?

I plan our lives around not just taking care of us, but then taking care of myself, too.

You plan for the worst?

I think I save too much.

You probably do. Early retirement people typically do. Let me guess. Do you have a secret number where if something goes wrong, you know exactly how much you can walk out of this relationship with?

Yes.

Ah. Okay. What else do you do to plan for the worst?

I sacrifice some of the things that I want in order to save and invest.

Like what?

For example, a few years ago, I wanted to buy this craft armoire thing, and it's like $4,000, and it has all, like, the bells and whistles, and it would organize. It's like an organizational dream. And I saved all the money for me to buy it for myself, but instead of buying it, I ended up investing it, and I did a backdoor Roth contribution.

Oh, my God. I know. You thought that I was going to.

Get on this call and clap and applaud that you did a backdoor ira.

That's so good. I mean, what, do you want to turn 65 and you never got the armoire thing?

I don't think I would remember the armoire.

So what? It's not about that single purchase. It's about saying we work hard together, we save and invest a lot of money, but we're not going to put our lives on pause for 20 years so that we finally feel safe. Because if we do that, we're actually not going to feel safe at all. We're not going to have the skills to spend our money because we will be obsessed with saving more. Katie, how much money are you going to have at early retirement. I know you know this number offhand.

How much?

From my calculations, at the age of 50, about $12.5 million.

Is that enough? Feel safe?

Yes.

No, you wouldn't. If you don't feel comfortable at $500,000 a year and $1.2 million of net worth, you're not going to feel comfortable at 5, you're not going to feel comfortable at 10, you're not going to feel Comfortable at 20. $20 million and you're still going to be making Excel spreadsheets and comparing features.

Sean, what do you think the consequences are?

I think we would argue more and I don't think we'll live as comfortably as we could.

That's it? It doesn't sound so bad. Oh, we won't live as comfortably as we could. Boo hoo. That's it. Sean, it's got to be frustrating, man. You're making $360,000 a year. You actually have about $2 million of net worth now that I add in the real estate holdings. And your partner here is questioning you on a $600 Roomba. It's got to be frustrating for you.

When we met, I made less. And over the years I've continued to make more. And the more I work, the harder I work, the more I make. It doesn't seem like we're really progressing well, to be fair, we purchased new homes, but it doesn't feel like we've increased our standard of living proportionately. And so does that mean sometimes makes you question why I work so hard and makes me a little bit discouraged. All the time and effort I put to like, try to finance our future in our lives.

You ever tell Katie that?

I don't think I told her that. No.

Tell her right now. See what she says.

Katie, you know, I work really hard and I try to advance our careers, my career and also yours. And it feels like the way that we go about our purchasing habits doesn't make me feel like I should continue to try so hard. It's very discouraging.

I hear you. I do encourage you to spend your money and I, for example, you know.

Katie, Katie, hold on. Do you notice how you're responding already?

Yes. I tend to pick hole we. I feel like we both tend to pick holes in each other's thought processes.

Exactly. You're responding defensively and you're about to say, well, actually I do. And for example, here's a long example, proving that I'm right. I don't think that's what Sean is Going for. In fact, Sean is opening up for maybe the first time on this. Can you repeat back, Katie, what you heard Sean say to you?

That he works hard and that he doesn't reap any of the benefits from his hard work.

How does he feel about that?

Discouraged.

Okay, so keep going. Really respond to him. Think about how you asked him to respond to you. Try to keep that in mind when you respond to him.

Sean, I hear you, and I understand that you do work very hard, and I appreciate the hard work that you put into our relationship and the hard work that you. All the sacrifices you make. I see the long hours, I see the things that you miss. And I want you to be able to enjoy your money and enjoy the. All the hard work that you have contributed in your career. And I want you to not feel like. I don't want you to feel discouraged about everything that you do, because you do do a lot for not only us, but also, you know, for our financial future. And I appreciate it, because without you and everything that you've done, we won't. We wouldn't. We would not be in the position we are. We wouldn't have the opportunities that we do have.

Thank you, Katie. That. That really means a lot, I think. Sorry. It's hard. I know that you do appreciate me, and I do know that you care, but you expressing the way you feel about what I do openly, like, right now, that really kind of makes it more concrete to me. Okay.

That was cool. I really enjoyed watching that. Between the two of you, I want to point out a couple of things that I noticed in watching that. Would that be okay? A couple of observations I can make. So, first off, Sean, you started off by saying something about, I noticed that our standard of living hasn't really increased. End sentence. Okay, did you catch that? You just ended the sentence. And then I said to you, what does that mean to you? How does it make you feel? And I could see you visually, kind of, oh, I need to talk about feelings. But you did an awesome job. You really were in touch with your feelings. It makes me feel discouraged.

And when you said that, I don't think you saw Katie.

You were so in your own mind. I think when you talk about emotions, it takes up all of your cognition. But Katie looked alarmed, like, shocked, like she's never heard you say that in your entire life. Katie, am I reading that right?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And so, Sean, what I want to point out is that I get your communication style. I get it. I like efficiency, too. I didn't really like to talk about my feelings. I'm still not naturally. I'm not going to sit here and talk about how do I feel today. I'd rather talk about, like, compound interest or let's go travel or whatever. But, Sean, do you see? She really has a lot of feelings about money. Like, the majority of her money attitudes and behaviors are drawn from this traumatic experience that she grew up watching. By you not talking about your feelings. What do you think you're causing her to do?

To guess what I'm feeling.

And when she guesses and comes to you and asks you a question and then you go, okay, what does that cause her to do?

Probably makes it seem like I don't care.

Yeah. Think about how many Excel spreadsheets and how much she's calculating the prices of X, Y, and Z, which you should not be calculating at this level of wealth. What is that? Why is she doing that?

Well, I think. Yeah. Why do you do that?

Why do I calculate everything down to the penny?

Yeah.

Because it gives me a sense of control over the situation. And I can't control your emotions. I can't control how much you work. I can't control, you know, how you feel about a situation. But I know I can control the dollar amount in my spreadsheet.

Control.

Here's what might be going through Katie's mind. My dad left my mom. I don't feel safe about money, but at least I can create 200 spreadsheets and calculate 30 different scenarios for our finances. And when Katie shows Sean her calculations and he looks at them and shrugs and says, okay, that doesn't get the response that Katie's looking for. What Sean doesn't realize, in fact, what Katie doesn't even realize, is that all this planning and spreadsheet creation, counting pennies, is about something much deeper than the car seat. It's about taking back control because she's afraid of what can go wrong. And even though she makes good money and together they make good, great money, she still has a very valid lifetime of reasons to be fearful.

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More control makes you feel safe.

Yeah.

Do you see this cycle, Sean? You don't talk about your emotions whatsoever. Right. She then says, well, you know what? In order to feel control, I'm going to go and create an even better spreadsheet, and I'm going to compare 10 different things. And then she comes to you again, and you go, yeah, sounds fine. And then she goes, I'm not getting anything from him. He's not contributing. He's not involved. He's not even asking me to watch the YouTube video. Deep down, I don't feel safe. I don't feel like we have a bond here. He's just saying, okay, he doesn't really care. If he cared, he would. What, Katie?

He would appreciate and see the value that I bring to the table when I do these things.

Yeah. And how would he express that?

By sounding invested in what I'm doing.

Yeah.

So he would say, oh, my God. Show me how you found that. That looks amazing, Sean. You ever responded to one of her Excel spreadsheet things like that?

I don't show that much emotion.

Exactly. Exactly. And so that causes her to feel even less safe. And so she engages in these behaviors that are totally incongruent with your collective level of wealth. It's not like it's coming out of nowhere. She grew up watching this happen in her family. But, Sean, it's the way she's perceiving your relationship. It's happening again. Okay. Notwithstanding the amount you have in your bank account, it actually doesn't matter. Honestly, you guys could have double the amount of money. You would be having exactly the same conversation today.

I think that that's all true. I think. And you helped us state it, and so many more words than what we've been able to do by ourselves. I. I'm happy that we at least have. We've identified what it is. I don't know if I'll be able to break the cycle, but at least he understands where I'm coming from.

How much do you think you need to retire at any age?

I don't know. Five million.

Okay, so you could do nothing, and you'll have 5 million. You could save $0 and you'll have $5 million. It's compounding. You have $1.2 million in the market that's growing every year. So if we run the calculations, that money compounded over 20 years turns into $4.6 million, literally, by adding zero, you're all retired. You just need a little time.

To quit my job? I was kidding.

No, no, no, don't do that.

I'm kidding.

So what does that tell you? I just hate for you to both be playing defense for the rest of your lives. You two came from, you know, your. Your family history. You won the game. The game of careers, of money. You have a happy relationship. You have a baby on the way. I'm really happy for you and I admire what you've accomplished. I hear you. Playing defense. What can go wrong?

What will go wrong?

How long until we can retire early? What I would love to do is shift that to playing offense. I would like to introduce you to the concept of a worry free number. A worry free number is below this number. We're just not going to worry about it. We may not even need to talk to each other about it. Let's just set a few simple rules in this relationship so we can eliminate most of the sources of our conflict. So, for example, Katie, if you go to the store and you want to buy a pack of gum, are you going to call Sean and ask his permission for that?

No, no.

It's a worry free number. One or two bucks, no big deal. What should your worry free number be in your relationship?

I have no $300, Sean.

500.

Whoa.

Why is it 500?

It's closer towards Darumba, I think. I don't have a concern. If you are trying to wanting to buy something under $500, you'll probably make the right decision because you are safe. We're safe. We can afford it. And I know that you'll never get to a point where you're going to spend more than we can afford. And I want you to feel like you can enjoy the money we have.

Okay. Thank you, Sean.

That was one of the best answers I've ever heard. I could not have said that better myself.

I love what you just did there.

Totally expressive, totally visionary. I want you to spend on the things you love. You are safe. That was incredible, Katie. What do you take away from that?

That he heard me and that he understands how I feel about the feelings that I have around money. And not just my feelings, but it. But when he repeats it back to me, it sounds like he understands.

Yeah, that was awesome. So I'm excited for the two of you. You came in here with questions about A$600 Roomba. And do you now see that your rich life is so much bigger than a roomba? It's literally 2 million times bigger than a Roomba. And So by focusing in this tiny little area over here, you're actually limiting yourself from the possibilities of a rich life. And I do mean rich. I think it would be a tragedy to go the rest of your life debating and agonizing over. I say $3 questions. In your case, $600 question is a $3 question. And so what I would dream for.

You, what I would wish for you.

Would be for you to acknowledge, we.

Did it, we won.

Now what do we get to do with our lives? Where do we want to go? Who do we want to see? How do we make it easy for ourselves, make it comfortable for us?

How do we be insanely generous because we've accumulated incredible wealth?

And you know what?

How do we buy some stuff?

We just want, if we do that, we live a truly rich life.

At the beginning of this episode, I challenged you to trust, treat it like a crystal ball. To listen carefully to a couple that's earned a lot of money and realize that they still have problems and tension around their finances and their communication. Now, you may Never earn a $460,000 a year. That's not the point. The point is that it's a fallacy to believe that one fine day when you earn more money, all your problems and stresses are going to disappear. Therefore, it means that first you should be working on investing and saving and earning more. You should probably be using our programs@iwt.com products. You should also be working on your money psychology. That can mean setting up an hourly meeting where you and your partner talk about money. It can mean mean coming up with your rich life vision, putting money aside for it and time and attention. It can mean monitoring the information that you're consuming. Even the people around you. Are they saying things like must be nice or are they saying, wow, that sounds amazing. That's so inspirational that the two of you are doing that together. All of these things roll up together to creating your rich life and helping you plan it, visualize it, and live it. I want to thank Katie and Sean for being so open and sharing their stories with us. And I look forward to seeing you on the next episode. I received a follow up letter from.

Katie and Sean after we spoke.

You can read the full letters from.

Both of them@iwt.com follow ups. They totally me that after the call.

Katie bought the dream box she's been.

Wanting for the last five years and.

She'S planning on organizing her craft room.

Before the baby comes over the next year.

They're also planning on Sean buying a surround sound system. That he's been wanting for their media room, plus an outdoor cedar sauna and season tickets to the theater. What a beautiful, beautiful, rich life.

And that's just in their one year plan.

To find out what they're planning to do in 5 to 10 years, go to iwt.com follow ups.

Thanks for listening to I will teach you to be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I will teach you to be Rich my book. Pick up a copy.

You can get it at any bookstore.

Or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.

Sa.