32. “We just got married, but I’m scared to combine our income and debts”

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John begins this episode really angry. He's talking over me. He's admitting how resentful he is about having to pay child support. And he goes off on this odd digression about not being a financial burden to his wife.

Listen in.

That's child support. It's actually 1100 bucks.

How do you feel about that?

Super fucking resentful. Burns me to decor every second. Let's support each other moving forward in our financial journey. Because I'm not a fucking burden.

See, there you go with your little anger thing though. Yes, let's support each other.

I'm not a fucking burden. I'm not here to be anybody's burden. I'm good. I'm not your money bitch. Like I'm not your money burden.

Welcome back to part two of my episode with Lindsay and John. And here on the I Will Teach youh to Be Rich podcast. Let me give you a quick refresher on who Lindsay and John are. Between them, they have five children from previous marriages. They were married together about a year ago. Their income is $150,000. Roughly 90 of that is earned by Lindsay and approximately 60 of that is earned by John. They came to me asking how they could combine their finances. But John has over $125,000 of debt, and he is very resentful. He's resentful because he has to pay over 50% of his income to child support payments. Lindsay's not used to having debt. She doesn't know how to work with it. And so they came to me asking what they should do. But you're going to hear it. John talks over me a lot. He spins a lot.

And when I ask him what are.

Some possible options, he can't conceive of them. He's still stuck to being problem oriented. And what I want to try to do today is move him over to being solution oriented. That's a profound shift. Now we pick up right where Lindsay is asking, how can I support you? Not how can I pay your debt off, but how can I support you in you paying the debt off? I want you to observe how the conversation flows. And I'm going to do something a little unusual in today's episode. I'm going to get into the weeds with Lindsay and John about their actual numbers. At times it might sound confusing. A lot of numbers are going to be flying by. But all I ask is that you trust me, because I want you to listen to how the two of them interact with their own personal finances. Let's get into it.

So we still haven't gotten a great solution here.

How can I support. How can I. What can I do?

How can you help support me? Pay off my debt? Yeah, well, I. I don't. I don't want you to. I don't want that to be your burden. I mean, it's. I want to pull my own weight, and if I can't pull my weight, I will not. I'm not going to be a burden to you. Absolutely not. I need to clear a picture of our income and our expenses.

But if that helped him chip away at that debt, I would be happy to. No.

No.

Okay.

No.

We're not solving his problems for him. You asked a great question, Lindsey. How can I support you in you paying off that debt? He's asking a really simple question. What is our income and what are our expenses? So let's get an answer to that. And I want you to both be writing this down right now because you're not going to remember it later. So make sure you have some paper. John, what is your gross pay per month?

Gross pay a month? 3,600. Approximately 3,700.

So you make $44,400 a year?

No, no, I guess it'd be per year. It's what, 59, I think.

So your gross pay is $4,916 per month?

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess something like that, yeah.

Okay, so this is what I'm talking about. Basic competence.

That seems too much, though, but okay.

Guys, basic competence with your numbers means you need to know how much money you make. And this is good. You're asking a good question. How much do we make and what are our expenses? These are excellent questions. If you don't know the answer to these, how are you going to find out the answer to this after this call?

John, I have them. I have them in a spreadsheet. I just didn't look it up. Right.

Seems pretty important. Like, we want to get the right numbers down. Right. So while you pull that up, John, I'm going to ask Lindsay the question. Lindsay, how much do you make gross income per month?

So I know what I make net. $4,800 a month in net or every month is that's what I'm going to have in my bank account.

So you two should set up a page, a Google Doc or whatever where both of you are putting both of your numbers. And the reason we want to start with gross and then put net is some people take money out for. For their 401k or their Roth IRA, and that's actually money that's going towards your investments. And so when you say I make this much net. Well, you actually made more than that. It's just in a separate investment account. Some people have childcare or whatever it may be. And then, of course, taxes are taxes. You can't really change that. So we want to look at the gross amount, and then you can talk about the net amount, but your net amount should really be what is your gross minus all the required things like taxes. Okay. Child support. That's really up to you to define for the two of you. Is that, quote, required or is that John's personal expense that he needs to handle on his own? What do you guys think the answer to that question is?

I think that's John's personal expense.

Okay, so, John, your child support is your responsibility. Right. That's not going to be, of course, counted by Lindsay, nor should it be. So Lindsey, in this case is paying for all the housing expenses. That's very generous. And the house is in your name, Lindsey. I think that's a good call. So, John, what does that mean for you and your housing expenses? How Much are you paying for housing expenses?

Well, like I said, it's. It's not. It's just whatever else I can feel like I can chip in. Like I bought the. All the wood for this season. I do a lot of labor. I guess it's not necessarily monetary in my mind, which. If that's a problem. That's a problem. Then we need to have that conversation. But I feel like I've tried to have. I feel like I've. Because I've been very vocal about that. Like, is this okay? Are you sure? All right. At least I feel like I've been vocal about that.

Okay, okay. Don't spin into this being a problem. I don't think it's a problem, Lindsey. Is it a problem that he's not paying housing? No, it's not a problem.

I think this is good to have this conversation.

Yes.

Good to say these things.

It's not a problem.

It's not a problem.

Fine. So let's not. Trust me. Life is hard enough. We don't need to create problems where they don't exist. So it's not a problem that you are not paying for housing. It's great that you picked up the wood and it seems like you do some stuff around the house that's awesome. That's valuable. It may not show up on a spreadsheet, but that is definitely valuable. Okay, so far so good. And John, that's actually a considerable amount of savings for you. I want you to really think about that. So expenses, what are the big expenses that each of you is paying for? Lindsay, you first.

So my day to day spending, like lunches out that don't need to be if I prepared more like we talked about, really looking in at that meal prep target essential oil, my subscriptions that I like sign up for monthly that I spend hundreds of dollars on.

No.

So how much could you cut realistically be realistic per month?

At least $300.

Okay, fine. What else? You have a car?

Yep, I have a car payment that. That's something I can look into doing too.

What kind of car did you buy and how much did you pay for it?

I bought a Kia Sorento and I'm going to own it. And it was $30,000.

What is your interest rate on the loan, do you know?

It's got to be more than 6%.

Yeah. So that loan, if you were to be able to refinance, it would save you way more than all your target purchases and all of that combined. Right? So in finance, basic competence means we know we start with our biggest purchases of all. And we focus on those first, and then we work our way down to little things like target expenses. Should you cut back on target? Yeah, you probably should, but that's not going to make a big difference in your finances, financial life right now.

Okay.

What's more important is your attitude, which is, I don't need to save everybody and I need to look at where am I directing my money towards. Because guess what? What if you had 500 bucks more per month, what would you do with it?

I put it, and I have a little savings, like a 360 savings account on a capital one. So maybe there's a smarter way I could put that $500 somewhere else.

Yeah, it's called investing. You're 37, correct?

Yep.

So do you know what your retirement situation is right now or your investment situation?

I have a 401k, which I'm contributing, like, minimally. I just saw that I have 20,000, almost $20,000 in that. And I don't look at that portfolio often. Like, I looked at it probably once a year, maybe twice a year.

It's not, you know what it's invested in?

No. Okay.

What else?

With my job, I think that company might have investment options, like reaching out to somebody to say, could you help me? And if there's a way that I could buy stocks within our company or something, maybe.

You're probably leaving like 10 to $25,000 a year on the table.

Okay.

How long have you been working at this company?

Almost 10 years.

Yeah.

Look, we can't change what happened in the past, but we can start tomorrow. Basic competence. First of all, is my money in the 401k actually being invested or is it just sitting in there in cash? I have a reader of mine, she opened up a Roth IRA, which is sort of like a 401K. And something like 10 or 14 years later, she logged in and looked at it, and it had just been sitting in cash. She hadn't invested it. She'd lost tens of thousands of dollars because she never knew she's got to go log in and check how it's being invested. Basic competence. Right. And this is all covered in chapter seven of my book. So you will learn this, and then you will feel confident and empowered to focus on that, because that's where you're going to make real money. It's not, you know, let me work, worry about my massage. That's not relevant. It's the big things that really matter for you right now. And I guarantee if you Just had it sitting in a savings account. Come Christmas, you would just spend it. All right, that's what happened.

I had 5,000 and now it's down to three. So.

Yeah.

Why? Because you have no purpose behind it. It's just. Oh, I know. I should probably save more. I put in a savings account, but I don't even know what the purpose of this is. Like, the two of you haven't sat down and said, this is what we're doing this year and we're going to spend X. I'm going to contribute 60%, you contribute 40% and we're going to do this in November. It's just head in the sand. It's no wonder the money is just flowing in and out. There's no purpose to it. There's no vision at all. Okay, so your investments, I can tell you right now, need to go up substantially. I want to come to John now. John, your expenses, what are the major ones that you're paying for?

So major expenses is probably. I mean, top, top one is child support followed by probably car payment.

That's right. We are talking about trucks again, my new favorite topic. Last week we heard about the truck that John leased. He cannot afford this truck. It was a bad financial decision, as are many truck purchases in this country. And he actually admitted, deep down he bought it because he wanted to spite his ex wife. Now we got to get into the numbers.

How much is your take home Pay, John?

About 13 bi weekly.

Okay, so 2,600amonth.

Yep.

And how much is your child support every month?

All in all, probably 1200. It's maxed out to the New York State max. Yeah, it's maxed out to the New York state limit. So. No.

So I'm just pointing out that that's approximately 50% of your take home pay.

Yeah, I'm aware. Okay.

Yeah, you're like, of all the numbers, I don't know. I know this number down to the penny. Okay, fine.

That's where I'm like, oh, I just give up.

Okay, So I don't want you to give up. And I know that it can feel like, oh my God, I'm overwhelmed. I have that. I have debt, I have student loan. I have all this stuff and you're just like, fuck it, I'm going skiing. Okay, we don't want that. We don't. Because once you do that, the game is over. Right. Once you lose the will to play, the game is over.

I oscillate. I oscillate.

Okay, so you have 1400 bucks a month after child support. 400 of that goes to your car.

Let's say 500 and 300 for gas.

And you're not paying any housing. Do you realize how ridiculous this is?

I do. I do. I do realize that. I do realize how ridiculous that is. I do.

So you have $900 left per month. And this goes where?

I mean, that goes to what? Food, gas? Anything fun. Anything fun for my kids. Clothes for my kids that I. I personally get to buy for them.

So I'm just going to share the numbers out loud, and then I want you to tell me what you would do if I were in this situation. Okay. My name's Ramit, and in this scenario, I make 2,600 bucks a month take home. By the time I pay child support and my car payment, I have 900 bucks a month left. I don't have any housing expense, and I have a bunch of debt and kids and eating out and stuff like that. What should I do?

Cut down on eating out, number one.

Okay, what else?

I could get a cheaper car payment. Yep.

Get rid of that truck tomorrow. I'm not kidding. Get rid of it. How long is your lease?

So it's up in May.

Okay. You may want to look into what happens if you break it early. But if you can break it, you need every extra 200, 300, 400 bucks you can get right now. And more importantly, you need to break yourself out of the cycle. That I'm powerless and I have no agency in this. It would be like if you're a CrossFit and you're like, oh, I can't lift this. And your coach is like, shut the fuck up. Lift that thing. Even if you need to use both hands just to prove to yourself that you can lift that thing. And then you're going to realize, oh, my God, I'm stronger than I realized. So one of your homework items is to find out from your dealer, what are the penalties if I return this car early? You may find out they want it back early because they can make more money right now because of the used car market. If so, bye bye, truck.

Okay, just a quick Note on my CrossFit example. It's a little aggressive.

I know.

I'm telling you, the coaches out there, shut the fuck up.

Lift that guy.

First of all, that's probably not a great coach. I'm not an advocate of that type of coaching.

But I want to tell you why.

I used that example. As I am sitting here recording this podcast, I can see both members of the couple I can tell John is a very physically fit guy. I can tell he takes a lot of pride in his ability to lift. In fact, at some point he mentions.

That, you know, he lifts and he.

Eats chicken and rice, etc. That's why I use that example. If you're having a discussion with your partner and they are not taking ownership and you go, hey, what would a CrossFit coach say? Shut up and lift that. And they've never even been to CrossFit.

That would not go over well.

So that's why I use that example. And the key principle there is make sure that you are using examples that connect with the person you're talking to. All right, back to John.

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Now let's pretend they say, sorry, you can't do anything. So May comes around, you finally turn that car truck back in. What are you going to do for an automobile?

I was planning on buying it out, but I want to say. You're going to say no?

With what money were you going to buy it out?

Yeah.

You didn't think that far, did you?

Well, I did, but I have a solution. I. I was like, yes, I'm going to need money. How am I going to get that money? I didn't have that piece.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, that's good.

So listen, other than working my. Other than working. Working really, really hard or something, you.

Know, you can't outwork yourself from certain things. You can't. Right. And I hope you're starting to see that even this working extra two months, you make 10, 15,000 bucks. You can't outwork the cost of a $50,000 truck. Not at your income.

Right.

It's time to be honest about that. Right? Have you ever said to yourself, I can't afford that?

Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah.

Really? Like what?

Well, like my truck. Like my truck.

Yeah.

I can't afford that.

What do you mean? You just told me two seconds ago you were planning to buy out the truck.

Well, no, I mean, when I leased it out, I was like, I can't really afford this. But you know, I got the shitty car. I rationalized it.

John, John, John, your. My question Was have you ever said to yourself, I can't afford that and therefore not bought it?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure I have.

Lindsay, do you agree?

No. You say to everything, you never tell me no that you can't afford to go out to dinner with me. You never tell me no that you can't do an activity. You're always game. And maybe that's what you need for me to stop saying let's go out to dinner. Maybe that's what will be a good thing for me to support you by coming up with inexpensive fun trips for us.

I just don't want to be like, oh, inexpensive trips. Like, I'm not a fucking burden. I'm not here to be anybody's burden. I'm good. I'm a farm boy, you know, like, we can get by. Like, I'm not going to be your. I'm not your money bitch. Like I'm not your money burden.

Whoa. Everything just went off the rails. Did you notice? So I'm asking this innocent question about, have you ever said you can't afford something? John goes, yes.

And then I bought it.

And I call him on it. Lindsay comes out saying, hey, you actually never say that. You constantly say yes, and maybe I need to change my approach. And suddenly John erupts with this I'm not a burden thing that he's got going on. You can see that John is resentful and it makes it very difficult to get to the core of what is really going on when John covers it up with this odd armor of I'm not a burden. In fact, notice what John said. He said, I'm a farm boy. I'm nobody's burden. I'm not your money bitch. What do you think is really going on there? You know, it's so complex, it's so multi layered that it is unlikely John will be able to make a big enough change. I hope he does, but the reality.

Is he's not really listening to me.

And he has faced no actual consequences for his spending behavior. He's in debt over $125,000, but he still has his truck, he still goes snowboarding, he still pays no rent, and he's not listening.

That's the worst of all. This is very frustrating, John. I think it must be tough for you to not be earning as much as your wife and to have $100,000 in debt and not have a plan to get out of it.

It's fucking. It's like a 12 out of 10. It's like over the Top.

Yeah.

And.

And I feel that if we were.

Separate, if we were like. If we were just dating and being fine, but, like, I don't know. It's so over the top.

Over the top means what? Embarrassing? Shameful? What is it? It's.

It's embarrassing. But also, I need to know how we're proceeding with all of the debt and the investments, and I don't want to feel like a burden. I'm not. I'm a hard worker, and I will pay my way.

Don, can you see that she's trying to help both of you get to that answer of what to do with this?

Yeah.

Okay. And your response to her was really frustrated. It was a bit over the top. Did you see that?

I just want to feel valued on my end, too, even though it's not monetary. You know what I mean?

You want to feel like you're contributing to the relationship.

Yeah. Yes.

You know what's funny, John? This is so funny, because I do. First of all, I know you contribute to the relationship. Lindsay, would you agree?

Yes.

Okay. Everybody agrees that you contribute, John. When I was speaking to my wife about money when we were engaged, we had a lot of really challenging discussions, very similar to the ones you're having. You know, we had a lot of spinning and some anger, all kinds of stuff. And I made more money than my wife. Okay. So we were talking about what's going to happen, you know, working, what if we have children, things like that. And my wife would continually say to me, I want to feel like I'm contributing, even if I'm not making as much money. And something really interesting happened in that conversation. First of all, I was like, yeah, I know. I know you're contributing. I get it. I value it. She didn't hear me, though. And I came to realize that in a relationship where one person is earning more than the other, the person who's earning less often feels they're not being valued. And the thing about money is it's really easy to put a number on it. We can look at how much you're paying for your truck or the mortgage or the kids or Target, and you can see that on a computer screen, but nobody can value how much it is. When you cut the wood, John, or when you make sure that the house is locked up at night or that you take the kids out for a walk. We just can't put a number on that, nor should we try to. Okay, I want to pause here just to see how both of you are feeling about this, because this is a really important thing, John, what do you think?

I'm just feeling frustrated and I don't like. I guess I don't like the phrasing. And this is on me. Like, I want to help pay down John's debt. Okay? If it's John's debt, John's gonna go take John's shit and go deal with it. You know, like, I just needed to rephrase or something.

Or would you like it to be phrased as.

I just don't want it to. However it can be phrased. And it's not like. And she's not saying. She's a. She's a God. She's a God. She's not saying it like that. But then, John, that's on you. That's on me. That's how I. Vision. That's how I envision it. I don't want to be like you say. You can put a. Not you can put a number on income, but you can't put a number on, you know, other skills or whatever that balance our. Our skill, our John worth.

What do you want it to be phrased as?

Our expenses.

So is your debt a joint expense now?

I don't know. It depends on if other expenses are joint expenses. Maybe. Like, so, I mean, I accrued that debt on my own, but now it's a value to us because now I have a pension and this and that. So how do we split that then? Is that all mine too, or.

Tell me. Why don't you just. Can I point out to you guys, it seems like you're both waiting for some magical person to come down from the sky and tell you the right answer. Do you guys know that?

Okay, here's my answer. Here's my thing. If we're married, we're pulling everything together and we're splitting everything or not.

Why don't I suggest that you just soften that a little bit like Lindsay. It seems like we're going in circles. Here's one proposal. What if we combined everything, and everything is joint. Okay. Why don't you ask for that? That feels a lot better, don't you think?

That's a way better pitch. You know, I gotta work on my delivery. Yeah, okay, do it. Lindsey. Lindsey. What if we pulled all of our income together and just spent everything out of that one pot?

That really scares me. But if we could do it the smart way. I just. I want to think more about that. The money that you have, that $900 that you have a month, and using that, like to make some moves to cut down that debt.

Okay, yeah, totally. But if that $900 is going to go towards that, then it's going to come from gas and any takeout or any groceries or that's got to be accounted for in some other way, which I'm happy to do. But that's. We have to figure out maybe we need, like a house card account or something and a grocery account or something.

So having funds so we put our income together. I'm just scared that. That we just said that I wasn't going to take on that $120,000 worth of debt, that that wasn't going to become mine to pay. So how can we work together by you continuing to pay that. But me help you with, you know, how can we help you feel like the financial pieces are split or that we have, like, maybe a card, like for groceries or something, or card like a joint account for gas that I put in or something.

I still feel like a crutch and a burden.

I mean, so what? You feel like a burden? So what? Yeah. Let's put it this way. Pretend I lost my arm in an accident or something. Okay. So my left hand doesn't work anymore, and I can't drive a car or something. So my wife has to drive when we go somewhere. Yeah. I feel like a burden for a while. Am I a burden? Be honest. Am I a little bit of a burden to my wife if I can't use my left hand? Yeah, a little bit. But does she still love me? And are we still going to have a great relationship? Yeah. And can I learn how to find other ways of managing that? Are there prosthetics or can I train my other hand to do things? Yeah. If I come into a relationship with $130,000 of debt and bad spending habits, am I a burden, John?

Yeah.

Now that you have said the truth, now we can accept it and change it. Do you want to be a burden?

No.

You're making that super clear. And I want to support you when I ask, what can I do?

Yes.

To help you, you know, like, how can I let you know how much I value you? That yesterday when we went snowboarding and took the kids and they were having so much fun like that I can't put a dollar sign on, but that means the world to me.

How am I gonna not be a burden? I can't. I'm not gonna be. When you say, let's go out to, like I said, buy wine. Nope. Babe, can you pick up wine? Nope, can't. Hey, let's go out Takeout? Nope. We're cooking chicken at home. I'm okay with it. I can eat chicken and rice and sweet potatoes and kale every night.

And I promise I'll come home too and eat it and I'll put a smile on my face.

Yeah, and you'll be happy.

This is a real partnership here.

This is how I lived when I was single. When I was single, sweet potato, chicken, rice every night, kale, oatmeal for breakfast. And I was good. I was living in a one room farmhouse, making it happen. I made 6,000 extra dollars in two months after being like no paycheck for two months.

Oh really?

Let's see. Let's get it done. And I got it done.

So, John, I love the energy. First of all, I love the macros that you were consuming when you were single. I love that.

Respect. I still.

Okay, great stuff. I love the energy you have when you think about being single. But do you notice something that aggressive, assertive energy when you were a single guy? How would you describe your energy right now when it comes to paying off your debt?

It depends. No, it really does depend.

How do you think I perceive your energy on today's call? It's lethargic, it's lazy, it's helpless. I don't know what to do. I'm going to use the gym example because you know, it. It's somebody coming in and saying like, oh, I want to like transform my body. But they show up late, they don't do anything, they don't listen to their coach. But deep down, you know, they can crush it. And so I think there's something here. John, when you were single, you were making it happen. You were hustling like no obstacle stood in your way. What's the difference right now? What, what change?

I have five kids and this is it.

This is the turning point for John. If he realizes it, he is so close to understanding why he behaves the way he does. I'm going to gently push on him because I want him to stop spinning, to stop repeating these automatic phrases about being a burden. And I want him to actually stop, breathe and think about why he does what he does.

There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent. And I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent.

In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage.

But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where Built comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through Bilt and you can earn points for it.

Think about it.

You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month. And you can redeem those Built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the.

First time as a renter. And it's easy.

Almost any payment method is compatible, so you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, Built recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026.

So stay tuned.

Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com Ramit that's J O I N B B I L T.com Ramit and make sure.

You use our URL so they know that we sent you.

When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits and health benefits, workers comp 401k matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com RAMIT and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com RAMit once more, guys. Gusto.com RAMit keep going.

What's that? Eight hundred bucks a month that comes right out of your paycheck? What is that?

Oh, yeah, so that's. It's actually 1100, but yeah, that's child support. Yeah. What about that?

And how do you feel about that?

Super fucking resentful. Yeah.

Yeah. And so exactly.

Every second.

So listen to this. When you were single and it was Just you. And some obstacle came up and you were like, I'm going to crush that. And you found a way around it. Now, I know you want to pay for your children. I know that I'm not taking away from that, but I can sense the resentment. That's so obvious. And how do you think that makes you feel about the rest of your financial situation when you combine that with all your debt?

Like an indentured servant.

And so what do you do when you feel like that?

I just feel like, what's the point? Like, why am I, what am I just working to make money to pay this fucking idiot? So like, you know, like, what am I even around for? You know?

Like, so. So, John, do you see the core of why you are so resentful and absent with your money?

Yeah.

What is it?

I mean, it's just this cycle of helplessness, I guess.

Yeah.

Why?

Because every. Every. Exactly. You're defeated. And. And I can sense that in you. And yet I'm looking at you and I go, this guy's not defeated. He's talking about macros. He's talking about working out. He loves going with those kids, you know, I can send. You love your job. So just play this out for me. One more thing. For every dollar you make, how do you feel about the next dollar you make?

I'm not even gonna see it.

Exactly.

It's not even mine.

Exactly.

For the next hundred thousand years.

Exactly. So do you now understand why you are so avoidant with your money?

Yeah, totally.

What is it? Say it to me in a sentence.

I mean, I just. It's like hopeless. Yeah, it's a hopeless situation. And I mean like. So I say I'm defeated, but I'm. Right now, in this couple days, I'm feeling a little bit down, but that's not my personality.

Like I don't notice what John just did. He took the real situation and he minimized it. He said, well, I'm just feeling down these last couple days, but that's not how I am normally.

He's not listening.

And this is the crux of the real issue.

Yeah.

John has learned helplessness. John believes that for every dollar he makes, he's basically going to see none of it. So he's just given up. But when I'm pointing this out to him repeatedly and I'm saying, what do you notice?

What is?

He goes, yeah, yeah, I get it. I said, what does it tell me? And he tells me. And then he instantly doubles back and minimizes it. This is a really bad sign. Makes it unlikely that John can actually change.

I know John. I know it's not your personality and yet.

So I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but no, I got. I'm going to get this shit done. No worries, John, one way or another.

Listen, you're saying this like it's a surprise to me, but if anyone should be surprised, I want you to really listen to yourself. I don't think you're actually hearing this, what's going on right now? You're a positive guy. You know how to get shit done. You've done it in the past. You were good, living on minimal stuff, eating the same food. You didn't need all this fancy stuff. Fast forward to today. You feel defeated, helpless. Like every dollar you earn for the rest of your life is not even yours. So therefore, what's the point if you connect the dots? Do you now understand why you haven't read my book? It's not because you don't like to read. I have an awesome audible version with insider stuff that's only on the audible version. Why do you understand why?

Truth hurts, man.

The truth is, John, every move you make towards paying off your debt or earning more money feels like it's just going to be taken away and sucked into a black hole. So why bother?

Exactly.

And that's why you get mad at Lindsay and you react with this very odd out of left field reaction like, I don't want to be a burden. She's not making you a burden. You are reacting to her talking about coming up with a reasonable plan because deep down you hate the idea of making forward progress with your money. Because what does forward progress mean?

It's not mine anyway.

And whose is it, by the way?

It's the student loans. It's my ex wife. My ex wife.

Yeah, it's your ex wife. And so the more you win, the more you actually lose. And who really wins?

She wins.

She wins. Unless you can change that in your mind. Unless you can say, look, these are the cards I was dealt. I can't change that. So either I can sit here and simmer in this resentment for the rest of my life, which is going to cause my own wife to become resentful because she's seeing me making no forward progress, complaining left and right and reacting in all these weird ways. Unless I can get over that, I'm going to be on this path forever. There is no magic secret for you to pay this debt off. This debt will grow. You will never get rid of this debt unless you make A very dramatic plan to get rid of it. That's the truth.

I'm excited to make, you know, dramatic plan and support you and me make a plan too, because we can do it.

Can we say, support us moving forward, not just feel like it's triggering me?

Say it again. Say it again. Let's do it. Let's start a fresh slate.

Let's support each other moving forward in our financial journey. Because I'm not a fucking burden. I bring a ton of shit.

See, there you go with your little anger thing though. Yes, let's support each other and want to support each other.

I don't know.

Did I reach him?

Maybe.

I know what the problem is. Lindsay knows what the problem is. But I don't think John has actually stopped to listen. He's very good at coming up with explanations. He's very good at spinning and running and moving. But sometimes you can't outrun a problem. Sometimes you have to stop, slow down and confront it head on. And he can repeat the things I say and he can laugh and admit, yeah, it's my ex wife. But I don't think he has really grappled with the fact that for every dollar he makes, deep down he believes he's losing. And worst of all, he's not just losing to a random person. He's losing to his ex wife who he's clearly angry at.

So did it help? I don't know.

Will he change? I hope so. But based on even the last couple of minutes of our conversation, I would say it's unlikely. After this part of our conversation, I stayed and spoke to John and Lindsay for quite a bit longer. I worked with them on creating a plan. I talked about some post nup options that they have. I talked about how they can create a debt payoff plan and John can take ownership and really prove to Lindsay that he's committed to making a change here. Finally, I talked about some of their spending. You know, I encourage them to make a disciplined plan about what they are going to cut back on. I want to read you part of a message that Lindsay sent me as a follow up. It's quite striking. Ramit, thanks again for taking the time to speak with John and I. Reflecting back on our conversation, I'm still surprised at the negative emotions I feel towards money. I meet with a counselor, read books, journal, and listen to podcasts, but never have I reflected on my own personal emotional growth that needs to be done. Regarding money.

Duh.

She said that, not me. The anxiety I feel is real and I can't put my head in the sand any longer. I want to end this long cycle of family incompetence, not just for me and my future, but for my kids and their future. After we met, I went out in the kitchen smiling ear to ear, but was quickly faced with John giving off the energy of irritation and frustration. We didn't take your advice to wait for our conversation and we got into a huge fight. So many emotions and past shocks from our childhood and previous relationships was right there on the surface. We went to bed mad and annoyed and the next morning I had to work an extra shift. On the way I listened to your podcast. I was still feeling embarrassed that I didn't have a clearer picture of my finances. But after listening, I'm relieved to know I am not alone. After my shift, I started a Google document. First up, my paycheck looked at gross and net income. I have never done that, but I will now. I then looked at my biggest purchases, my mortgage, car payment, etc. And do you know I am paying over 9% interest rate for my car payment. I've also started reading your book. John and I are reading it together. We have promised six weeks to one another. Our weekly chats are on the calendar along with a monthly date night. I am hopeful it will be a promise we keep to ourselves forever. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh To Be Rich.

I'm gonna give you a quick rundown of what I would do in this situation if I were involved in it. Okay? Some of it may be relevant, some of it may not. Some of you may decide yes or no, or you may want to talk to somebody else about it. But I'll tell you what I would do in a similar situation. So what I would do is I would get a lawyer and I would sign a postnup. A postnup agreement is like a prenup, but it's after you're married and I would legally separate the debt.

Why?

You've already been divorced once and if for whatever reason you were to get divorced again, Lindsey, there's no reason for you to take on 100 plus thousand dollars of debt. I, like you, was like what? Prenups are only for rich people and like people who are like assholes with a Richie Rich top hat. That's what I thought. No, as you know, getting divorced, there's some real reasons to have a prenup. It sets the rules of who owns what. And so the fact that both of you are coming to the marriage with different assets and different debt, I think would be really important just to create some lines in the sand that says, in the worst case, if we end up separated, your debt is yours, my debt is mine. Second, I would. I would come to a decision on how are you both going to treat your debt. Okay, so right now, I actually still don't know that you have both come to a clear decision on, is the debt purely John's responsibility or. Lindsey, do you want to contribute to it in some way, and if so, how much? Okay, so I think you're both assuming that you should just combine everything, and then the debt should just be paid from one account. Well, if that's the case, then because of your earnings, Lindsay, you're ending up taking on over 50% of his loans. That to me, doesn't make any sense. What I would do is I would come up with some rules. If I was Lindsay in this relationship, I would say something like, look, it's really important for me to see that you can. You can pay your debt down for six consecutive months and make a serious dent in it. Now, if I'm John, first of all, I'm feeling like, oh, that's like, I don't feel good hearing that, But I understand it. And John, if I'm in your position, I go, okay, great. I have a challenge. I know how to solve it. I'm getting rid of the truck. I'm getting a cheaper car. No more of this takeout stuff, all that skis, blah, blah, blah. No more of that cheap stuff for the kids. And I'm gonna need Lindsay's help because some of this stuff I don't have the skills to do. Lindsay, I need your help to come up with some ideas for the kids. And. And, Lindsay, I need you to not be buying a bunch of stuff out there because I can't have the temptation. Okay, but, Lindsay, again, I'm speaking as John in this example. I've put together a plan, and over the next six months, I'm going to work my debt down by 600, 800, 1200 bucks a month. Whatever it is, John crushes it. Of course, you come together, Lindsey goes awesome. You keep paying that, and I want to add on x hundred dollars a month, which will excel, accelerate the payoff by years and years. Okay, now you're both in it together. John's picking up the bulk of the slack because it's his debt. Lindsey is agreed to help, but it's not your debt. Lindsey, you're just doing it because he's your partner, but you're not doing the bulk of it, he's doing it. It's his responsibility. Okay. Couple other things I would mention, John. I would find out after this call, next couple of weeks, find out the details on your loan forgiveness. That is a huge amount. You need to know exactly what's going on with it. No more head in the sand. Take control of that. Find out exactly what it takes. And then finally, I would start reading my book together. Six chapters once a week, you guys both read the chapter and you come together, talk about it. Set aside 90 minutes, each of you brings your questions. Get a quiet space with no kids around and do that, okay? You're both going to become very competent about your like way more competent than you are now. You're going to feel so fucking good because you're going to be like, how did we ever do, how did we get 40 years of our life without ever knowing this? The two of you need to come up with a vision for what you want. Besides not feeling anxiety, besides not having a gaping wound in your are. But here's a challenge for you. Both of you live above your means. You live above your means. So all these things I heard, like you took a ski trip like yesterday and I'm looking at you have like $125,000 in debt or more. To me, that's crazy. If you have that much money in debt, you don't go skiing. It's just as simple as that, right? So it may be buckle down tough times for X months, maybe even X years. But if you do that, you can start saving money, putting it aside, you can go out, yeah, you can go out to dinner once in a while. I'm not saying you have to become restrictive about everything but the life you're living with the leased cars and the skiing and the this and the that. You're probably living above your means. And once you read the book, you will understand where the money should be going. And that's going to be a big wake up call.

Okay?

That's what I would do if you did that. I bet you that within 12 months you would make a massive dent in this debt. Massive. By 18 months, the debt would be paid off even faster and faster. You'd be accelerating it and the two of you would be way more aligned. No more tiptoeing, walking on eggshells. No more fighting. No more mindless target spending.

Spending.

You'd be spending quality time with your kids, with each other, and most importantly, you'd be transmitting these really sophisticated money values to your children. 12 to 18 months to change your Life. You can do it. What do you think? Love it?

I think it's great.

John, who's going to take the lead on his debt, is going to become pretty sophisticated with debt. He's going to learn about how to calculate exactly what month and year his credit card debt will be paid off. And John's going to learn If I put $100 per month towards it, it will never be paid off. If I put 500amonth, oh, it'll actually make a pretty big dent. Oh, my God. If I put 600amonth or 700, that can cut it down by years. So it's just like, whoa, it increases. So then what John's going to do is he's going to start paying every single month some pretty substantial amount towards it. And why do I say substantial? Because what are you guys not going to be spending money on anymore?

The.

The mindless stuff, you know, we're really going to make some cuts. We're. We're living up beyond our means, you know, And I'm going to stop with the temptations of, you know.

But be specific. These are all words I want to know exactly. What are the specific places you go that you're not going to spend money at anymore? What are they?

Greek Peak.

Okay, what else?

Beer Tree.

What is it? What is that, a bar?

It's a restaurant. It's this great restaurant, but stop the bargaining. Actually, let's take that back monthly. Instead of going, we'd like to go once a week. Let's go once a month.

There you go. Great.

You don't have to deprive yourself entirely. Once you're honest, you go, what the fuck? Okay, fine. We're still going to go to the restaurant because we like it. But instead of once a week, once a month. And we're going to put it on the calendar so we are not tempted. One night we come home tired from work. Let's go over to the beer treat. We're already going there in a week and a half. It's already on the calendar. Let's just cook some chicken and rice tonight. Simple, right? I think you guys have been living in this, like, underwater hopelessness for so long that it's actually scary to both of you to actually have a plan and start working towards it. The past has not been good for your finances. So if I were you, I would find more solace in the future because that past thing is not doing you any favors, right? And once in a while, you guys are going to break down. Lindsay, you might forget and text him to bring some wine. John, what are you going to say if she texts you?

Let's save that money for our vacation. There you go.

Have a vision. Because for you, John, you're just resentful. Every dollar I make is just getting sucked up. And then Lindsey, you're too scared and you've been told that you're not capable of doing this money and you should just sit there quietly and let other people do it. So both of you are just like, oh what the fuck? What am I going to do with this money? Forget it. I'll just spend it in self suit. You have no vision. I mean some of the vision is just what's it gonna feel like when we have no debt? But what's it gonna feel like when we have a 401k that's full? What's it gonna feel like when we can go on vacation and stay an extra two days just cause and show our children this amazing part of whatever part of the country you wanna go to that they've never seen. Oh, that's a vision. So I'd rather take the kids camping than go to Target or buy some. Why?

All right, thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

See you. I received a follow up letter from.

John and Lindsay after I spoke to them. You can read the full letter@iwt.com follow.

Ups but here's an excerpt of what.

Lindsay wrote reflecting back on our conversation. I am still surprised at the negative emotions I feel towards money. The anxiety I feel is real and I can't put my head in the sand any longer. I started a Google document first up my paycheck.

I used a calculator and double checked. It was correct.

Looked at gross and net income which.

Took less than five minutes.

I've never done that, but I will now. I then looked at my biggest purchases. My mortgage, car payment, car insurance, credit card, school loan. And do you know I am paying over 9% interest for my car payment. I instantly applied for a refinance. Well, I'm impressed with the work Lindsay and John are doing to take control of their finances. I really want you to read their full letter. You can get it@iwt.com follow ups where you can enter your email address there. Thanks for listening to I will teach you to be rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I will teach you to be rich. My book. Pick up a copy.

You can get it at any bookstore.

Or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.

Sam.