33. “We’re in debt, but I don’t want to make her go back to the corporate world”

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I don't want to just survive like Thrive. It puts a lot of strain on our relationship. We don't necessarily talk about money because we always end up fighting.

How much do you want to participate in the household running of the budget?

I want to be informed, just to know what's going on because otherwise I just feel like I just live here. I'm a roommate.

What else do you feel?

Anger? Resentment? A little bit toxic to be honest.

How do you handle money if you and your partner both feel stuck? How do you handle it if you and your partner both tend to ignore it? Today I'd like to introduce you to Martin and Arlie, a couple struggling to.

Figure out how to get out of debt.

They've been together for over 10 years. They're not married and Martin is 53 and Arlie is 46. They have recently started to feel the pressure as they wonder if they'll ever be able to retire. Let me give you a little bit of background on their numbers. They make $125,000 mostly from Martin's work. Arlie runs her own business, but but it's only bringing in $3,000 per year, Martin has $40,000 in debt and Arlie has $7,500 in debt. What's interesting is both of them claim they want to pay this debt off, but when I ask them what their options are, they both seem to have no idea. Now, as you listen today, the answer might seem obvious to you, but in this episode, you're going to see how money goes far beyond the numbers. Now, to start, their debt is causing them a lot of stress, and it's coming out in peculiar ways. I want to begin with an example that happened to them at a grocery store. I'm Ramit Sethi, and this is I Will Teach youh to Be Rich.

Arlie and I got into a raging fight over a bottle of coffee creamer. I said, well, I just can't afford that at the moment.

And how did she react?

She got very silent. I think it was because I keeping track of the household budget was seeing the numbers dwindle down to zero on every month. And when the numbers get a little low, I start to worry, are we going to be able to pay the bills? Are we able to the mortgage? Are we going to be able to pay for all the stuff which is, you know, $4 for a carton of creamer isn't going to make a difference to keeping a roof over our head.

I own a business, but it's not making not nearly enough money to, like, help out. It puts a lot of strain on our relationship. We don't necessarily talk about money because we always end up fighting. So I have no idea what's going on with finances. I don't have access to his accounts. If he were to pass away, I would not know passwords. So I think it's just about being at least educated just to know what is going on.

I'm a little surprised because she's never mentioned that she wanted to participate in the finance. Like always kind of got the impression that she wanted to avoid having to deal with money.

This is surprisingly common. Couples will go 30 years without really talking about money. And when they sit down with me, they're shocked to discover that one of their core assumptions about their partner was wrong. Sure, every couple will dance around money, they'll hint about it, some will fight about it and argue about spending on groceries or vacations. But those are just symptoms. Very few people will have regular, consistent conversations about designing a rich life together.

Okay, well, this is interesting. So, Martin and Arlie, you've been together for over 10 years and only now in the first few Minutes of our conversation. Have you realized there's a misunderstanding about money? Would either of you care to ask the other partner, maybe clarify expectations?

Arlie, how much do you want to participate in the household running of the budget?

I want to know. Just know what's going on. Because otherwise I just feel like I just live here. I'm a roommate.

The numbers are pretty much the same each month, but yeah, I'd be happy to have that conversation.

Okay, that was good. How do you both feel about this so far?

It's a good first step.

Yeah.

Is it going to solve all the problems?

I don't think so, no.

Why not?

I thought information solves it all. I can understand Arlie's need to feel included. When we don't feel heard at work, in our families, even in society, we often act out in very weird ways. People become nitpicky about their partners, they throw tantrums, they do all kinds of odd stuff. So I really appreciate Arlie for speaking up here and asking to be included. But I also want to point out that she asked for information.

Did you catch that?

As if information is going to solve everything. In America, we have a deep infatuation with the idea of information.

Information.

We really believe that information alone persuades people. As in, give people the information and let them decide. I studied social influence and persuasion at Stanford. I can tell you that information alone is extremely unpersuasive. Americans believed that making CEO pay transparent would reduce, actually increased it. We believed that showing calorie counts at restaurants would change the obesity epidemic. Wrong. Information matters, yes, but it's not the magic answer that everyone thinks it is. When it comes to your money, lots of you really believe that. You just need to sit down and figure it out. Which is code for get the information all out on the table. But get real, you could do that in five minutes. The real issue with money is much deeper than information or even math. What matters sometimes even more than math, is psychology. And Arlie and Martin intuitively understand this, because when I jokingly ask him, will information solve everything? They laugh and they say no. That's because they know that information won't solve their problem. And yet that's what they came to me asking for. I think there's something else going on.

Here that's not being said.

So let's go deeper. I want to understand what their rich lives really are.

I would love to travel, have that freedom. I don't want to just survive like thrive.

Being able to do what we want to do rather than what we have to do in order to get by.

You can tell a lot about someone by how they describe their rich life. I just heard Arlie and Martin describe theirs and they sound fairly aligned on the surface. But do you really know what they actually want? Do they? If you rewind, listen to them describe it again. What you'll hear are a lot of generalities, including words like freedom and travel. Those are just words. They don't actually describe exactly what somebody wants. Your use of the word travel is totally different than my use of it. And in Martin and Arlie's case, the way Martin sees travel is probably totally different than how Arlie sees it. I have some suspicions about what's going on, but I want to know more. So I want to start by finding out where their debt actually came from.

It's been in small amounts, courses that have been taken, school clothes for the kids. Honestly, I couldn't tell you a single specific thing that was a large amount.

It adds up when you think about your money. What's one or two words that come to mind for you, Martin?

Crushing weight.

Yeah. Arlie, same question for you.

Love and hate. Love and hate. Relationship with it.

Tell me.

It's so lovely when you get it and hate that I have to look at every price before I buy.

Yeah. Have you done anything to make a change?

I started my own registered company which allows me to pay Arlie and to a lesser extent the kids money, which I can do so tax free. So considering the high tax bracket that I'm in, results in a significant sort of savings. So the money stays in the family rather than going to the government.

You're both very intelligent and it's clear that the money you make is going to your rent, it's going to your debt, and it's clear that nothing's changing. It's just getting worse.

That's kind of why I was excited for the opportunity to talk to you, because I'm out of ideas.

I don't even have ideas. It's like we've hit a plateau. There were just like zero movement. I have no idea what to do.

It's pretty interesting what just happened. They've given up at the first hurdle and instead of finding a solution, they have essentially decided that they're helpless and they don't know what to do.

I have to tell you, I'm not.

Very impressed at Martin's idea of starting.

A registered company so he can pay less taxes first. That's not really how this works.

This is a gimmick. It's not a real solution. Second, pay your fucking taxes. When I ask what else he's tried, Martin's comment reminds me of that famous quote from the Simpsons, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas, okay? Now the good news is they came to me for help. And that is a big step to ask for help and for both of them to be here together. But there's clearly something blocking them. Notice that whenever they think about themselves and their own situation, they stop trying to find a solution and they essentially give up. I want to get them out of their own situation. I want to get them out of their own heads.

So I propose an exercise real question for you.

Do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money.

What about with your health?

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Ramit when.

I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay Hire onboard pay and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers comp, 401k, matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIT Once more, gusto.com ramit okay, let me describe another couple.

They're called Max and Abigail. Abigail. Thank you. Max and Abigail. Ah. Max and Abigail are a very nice couple and they are about 50 years old. And Max earns $125,000. Abigail earns about $3,000, and together they have $90,000 of debt. What should they do?

Sounds like they're in the same boat we are.

Yeah. They're suspiciously similar to you. I know, it's weird. I represent Max and Abigail. Do you want to ask any questions of this couple?

Can they make more income?

Yes.

Okay. Can they reduce their expenses?

They could probably reduce it 10%.

So would seem that, you know, making more money would be the solution for. I mean, that and winning the lottery. That's always a good answer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Before starting her own business, Arlie used to work in customer service.

And when she had that job, her.

Income was much, much higher and therefore their joint income was higher. They were more comfortable financially. It seems like there's an obvious solution here on the table, but no one.

Is willing to talk about it. Arlie, you have the chance to now ask a couple in a very similar situation to you certain things.

Well, you said to make more income, so does can Abigail go back to work full time?

Abigail? Yes.

That help.

Keep going.

With that money. Can you reduce the debts?

Yes, Dramatically.

How?

The more she puts towards the debt, the faster it will be paid off. How much do you think Abigail can earn if she gets another job? How much can she make per year?

About 50.

Okay, just so we're clear, I'm talking about how much you could make if you got a job. Okay.

About 50.

Okay. I just got to step out of this simulation.

I got it.

Very good. It was subtle, but okay, 50k. Right now Abigail's making $3,000 a year. But now Abigail can make $50,000 a year.

I think the block here is that neither of us particularly wants Arlie to return. If we drop the simulation for a moment, neither of us particularly wants Arlie to return to working in the corporate world. We believe that her business has the potential to grow tremendously. Whereas working at a corporate job we kind of know what the ceiling is. And that's it. We really need to rethink that either in terms of her working part time or full time return to corporate, or if there's in fact a solution where we can make this work on one income until her business does take off.

Okay, well, let's find out few questions and we'll know the answer. Arlie, when did you leave your full time job?

20. 19.

Okay. A couple years ago. And what were you making at that job?

56.

56. Very good. And since the time you left, have your finances gotten better or worse?

Worse.

How much do you make from Your current company?

$300 per month.

How much are you going to make next month?

Same.

Yeah.

And Arli, what kind of business is this?

Network marketing.

What are you selling?

Essential oils.

No.

Network marketing.

Selling essential oils.

Oh my God.

Is there a bigger scam on earth?

Harley, how did you get into this? A Facebook group?

No, no. Somebody that I know.

Oh God. And what'd they tell you? If you get in, then you can make a bunch of passive income and then other people will be working for you? That kind of thing?

Yeah, something like that.

And is your friend making all that money?

She is, actually.

What kind of car does she drive?

She drives a Porsche Cayenne.

Yeah, it's no good. No good. You're not going to make it with this business. You know the percentage of people who succeed with this type of business?

Yes, I do.

What is it?

It's like 1%.

Yeah. And how long have you been doing this?

For about three years. I did it part time before, so.

Arlie, you're the 99% of people. It doesn't work. You're the exact person you've paid. You bought all these things. You've been spending all this time. You used to make $56,000 a year. Your finances have gotten worse. You are the 99% of people for whom this doesn't work. What do you think? Talk to me. It's okay. This is tough to hear. I know. Talk to me. I want to hear what's going through your mind. Is it difficult to hear? No. You're shaking your head no. Is it surprising to hear? No.

It'S not. Because it's something that I have voiced before too, Martin. Many times actually. But I had to leave my corporate job because I was just not happy doing that. I was just not happy and the stress and everything that came with that specific job led me down a path of anxiety and depression. So I needed to leave it regardless. Regardless. So though I understand that me going back to corporate would help us financially to put my mental health. What's the word I'm looking for?

At risk.

At risk. It's not very appealing. Yeah, I work in customer service, so I mean, that's, you know, but it's so, it's, it's, it's really, really tough to come to terms with that.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't want you to have to go and compromise your mental health. I'm not telling you you have to go back to the company that you used to work for that caused you to feel this way. First of all, I can't tell you to do anything. This is your life and the two of you make decisions. What I can do is point out some things you may not have considered. Okay. I totally understand if you have to leave a job because it's not serving you. And you did that. That was pretty courageous. Unfortunately, you took a wrong turn.

I hate multi level marketing and I hate network marketing. It's almost always a scam. When 99% of people fail at something, you can generally treat that like a red flag. These business models are structurally corrupt and they intentionally prey on vulnerable people, including minorities and the poor. The quintessential example is a stay at home mom who joins a Facebook group of other moms pushing some MLM with dubious results. Data has shown very clearly that the vast majority of people in this industry make no money. But the people who join these scams also have to take responsibility. They join because they want to make quick, easy money. Now, I make passive income from multiple sources. I've been doing it for a long time. And I can tell you there are no magical shortcuts where you become a millionaire overnight. It takes work and it should take work. So this entire thing is frustrating to me to hear. It's frustrating that these folks prey on people who are in search of meaning, want to make some money. And it's also frustrating to hear that Arlie herself joined this essentially to make a quick buck.

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Back to my conversation with Arli.

If you want to start a business, okay. But start a real business. The one that you chose was a bad business. Just look at the last three years. I'll just ask you one question. Is it working for you?

No.

Okay, good. We have to be honest. Honest with ourselves, honest with the people around us. It's not working. So you can keep doing it and keep hoping that next month or next month it's going to turn right, or you can make a change. I'm not going to tell you what to do. Let's just start with a simple question. Do you want to keep going down this route or do you want to make a change?

Well, no, obviously we're here because we want to make.

Great.

I'm happy to hear it. Awesome. Now let's talk about what that looks like. I get the sense that you are immediately jumping to the idea that you have to go back to that old company or a company like that. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Well, in her defense, the last two companies were like that.

So you feel what, it's a trend that all companies are like that, that you just want to get out of the corporate world?

I don't think all the companies are like that, but I think I started on the trend back when I was in university, that when customer service was the in thing. So all my summer jobs were customer service or reception. And I, you know, I do like, because I'm trilingual, I do get paid more for doing that kind of work. And as you know, customer service and, you know, it's not always pretty and et cetera, et cetera. So if I don't do like, that's my expertise. That's where I want to go. That's my expertise. And my resume. That's my expertise, customer service. So yes, I would think that I would need to go back to that because that's what I know.

Which of the things you said are true and which of the things you just said are assumptions?

Assumptions that I have to go back to a company just like it.

Correct. And which of the things you said are facts?

That my expertise is in customer service?

Yeah, that's a fact. That's what's on your resume. You can't change that.

That's a fact.

But you're totally right that you made an assumption that you would have to go to the same type of companies you used to work for that made you unhappy. Now that you are so good at making the negative assumption, I want you to flip that and make A positive assumption. Just for a second, just play with me. Give me a super positive assumption on what might happen if you were to go get another job that I don't.

Necessarily have, that a company will allow me to do more than just customer service because I do have experience, they'll pay me more than the $50,000.

Good. Anything else? How would you feel coming home from work?

How that would feel great coming home from work.

Okay, so listen, if we're going to assume things and we're just going to make it up, I'd rather assume positive instead of negative. I'd rather assume the scenario where I find a really cool job that's intellectually stimulating, takes advantage of my skills, and.

Because the market is way up, they're.

Going to pay me more. I mean, if we're going to choose, our assumption is just make it up, why not just choose the positive ones? What do you think?

I agree. Okay.

It's very intoxicating to focus on the negative assumptions. Why do you think that is?

I think sometimes that's the default number one. And I think sometimes that can be your comfort zone.

Tell me more.

It's just easier to think negatively, easier than to be positive.

What do you feel?

Think really hard, really close your eyes and think.

When you get into that negative space, that negative mindset, maybe you're talking to Martin and you're going, I can't go back. Last time I was there, my boss did this. What are you feeling in your body at that moment?

Anger.

Keep going.

Resentment. A little bit toxic, to be honest.

Toxic? What does that mean?

Yeah, like, I do feel gross when, you know, I allow myself to be super negative. Say, if I'm talking to Martin, I feel kind of like, oh, my God, I just, like, vomited all this grossness.

But that's after, isn't it? I'm talking about during.

During, definitely anger. I think that's the anger. Definite resentment. I think those are the two predominant ones.

Yeah. And where do you feel it? In your body?

Like in your. In my solar plexus, I guess. I don't.

Stomach.

Yeah, Stomach area. Yeah.

Okay, so you're just feeling this anger and resent. It's kind of a hot emotion, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah.

Now, can you think about something? You talk about where you're happy, maybe your kids or some nice memory you had. Can you think of something that comes to mind for you?

When I think. When we talk about when we used to live in California.

Great. Okay. So when you talk about that, describe to me what you Feel peaceful.

Happy, optimistic.

It's interesting those words are all positive versus anger and resentment. So why do you think that that negative space is your comfort zone?

Sometimes it's easier to feel shitty so that you. I don't know if I'm going to say it correctly, but, like, I victimized myself and just think about all the shitty experiences so that I don't have to go back to that.

Yeah, yeah. So you go, they did this to me. That company mistreated me. I felt angry. I'm never going back to that.

It's almost righteous.

You're creating the shield around yourself. You're saying, I'll never go back to that. And you feel like, angry, resentful, all these hot emotions. And then what happens right after that?

Feel really shitty.

You feel shitty. And do you make any changes whatsoever?

No. You? No. That's the thing. And I think that's where we are right now. Yeah.

So based on what we've talked about so far, Arlie, what do you think your potential next steps are?

Looking for a job that I can actually like, maybe even love or make good money to help us get out of all the debt and we can actually thrive. Start thriving.

Martin, what do you think?

I agree. Pains me to ask her to give up the idea of doing her own thing. And I guess I've had such a negative interpretation of the corporate world as well, based on my current experience, that I. I'm loath to ask her to do that again. But, yeah, I kind of think that seems to be the obvious solution at the moment.

I agree. I think that you two are so blocked from the obvious answer. The obvious answer is one of you is earning income, the other one is not. Both of you should earn an income.

Pay off this debt really fast.

And so it was very puzzling to me that both of you seemed completely unable to come up with this idea.

Yeah. And we have talked about it. I can confirm that. And like I said, I'm comfortable with the fact that I thought she could make the business work. And also, I didn't want to be the mean guy to ask her to sort of break her heart and go back to these mean people who.

Over.

The last three jobs, between the two of us, we've had a very negative experience.

Do you see how you also are making assumptions that if you were to set some expectations in the relationship or to have a candid conversation with your partner, that suddenly you're the bad guy? I don't think so. I think you're drowning over there with 125k and all this debt, and you're sitting there getting super pissed about $4 coffee creamer, but you can't bring yourself to do the one thing that will actually make a change. What is that one thing?

Communicate. Specifically, talk about money and make her go back to work.

Yes. Have a conversation about her going back to work. Not make her, but talk to her. And that communication means, hey, look at the numbers. Like, I'm doing a pretty good job here. I would love any advice you have, but the fact is we just don't have enough right now to get out of this debt, much less to thrive, not survive. I need your help as my partner. Let's brainstorm some ways to do it right. I would never want you to go back to a job that you hate. That makes you sad. But I do need financial help. I need you to be my partner in this. That's communication. And, Arli, your perspective that you've been burned so many times. I'm sorry that happened. I hate that it happened. But ultimately, you've got to turn the page because right now you will be in debt forever. You guys are 50 years old. This isn't going anywhere. It's time. So how are you going to do it?

Well, I think we need to. Like you said, we need to change our attitudes towards what jobs are and what we actually want to do to earn that money and focus on finding both of us jobs that we actually enjoy doing.

That'd be good. It's hard for two partners to get excited about jobs if both of you hate your experiences. Boy, wouldn't it be amazing if one of you got an awesome job and then you come back and report home like, this job is awesome. My boss is actually great. I love the work I'm doing. I'm respected. All this stuff that we teach in our programs, you can find these jobs.

By the way, it's the best time.

In history to find a job.

It's incredible. Right now they're paying a lot.

There's a million opportunities. But none of that changes unless you change your perspective. Number one, do I believe that it's possible to find a good job? Yes, of course. There are millions of people who have awesome jobs. People at my company have awesome jobs.

And all over the world.

Second, do I think I can do it? Okay, maybe, maybe not. I need to learn some skills of finding the right job and interviewing and negotiating, but I think I could do it. I'm smart. Third, will it change our financial lives? Undoubtedly. To be able to bring in an extra 3,500 bucks a month or $4,000 a month would be amazing. What do you think, Arlie?

No, I definitely agree.

You join a network marketing business selling essential oils. That's never going to work. You fight in the weeds about $4 coffee creamers, but you neglect the two things that are staring you right in the face. One, Arlie, get a job that's going to transform your finances. And two, build some basic competence around personal finance. Because you have a considerable amount of debt, you can take control of it. Two things, straightforward, simple, might even say boring. They're the only things that actually work. The real question for the two of you to ask yourself is, why haven't you done those on your own? They're so obvious and straightforward.

Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when I said that the advantage of doing nothing was it didn't get any worse. But in actual fact, it is getting worse when you're doing nothing. We know the interest is piling up. We know that that six foot hole, the ground underneath us is actually sinking. And we're not staying at six feet. We are going down. But I guess we've just been telling ourselves that things aren't getting worse for a long time, even though they are.

I think you're both finally telling yourselves the truth. Nobody can make the change for you. Nobody. Nobody can find the job for you. Nobody can do your finances for you. Only the two of you can. And the way for both of you to make that happen is to envision what happens if we make no changes. And the answer is quite predictable. You already know the answer. I don't even need to tell you that. What happens if we make a change and it goes really well? I note that both of you, when you talk about making a change, you kind of default to the negative. It's actually quite intoxicating for both of you. I think you get off on it. And we talked a little bit about why. I think there's a lot more beneath the surface of why you both love to discuss what could go wrong instead.

Of what could go right.

And I get that by the way. I feel sometimes when I'm talking about something terrible that happened, it can feel kind of energetic.

It's like gossip.

Oh my God, I can't believe they did that. I understand it. I'm smiling right now as I'm saying this to you. I get that there's a time and a place for that. But when it's causing these real financial and relationship problems, boy, sometimes it might make sense to Put that stuff aside and rewrite the context of your relationship. You have a clear sense of what you're going to do next.

Yes.

Okay.

Martin.

Yeah, I. I've got to stop worrying about hurting people's feelings and actually engage them in conversations and also find something that I enjoy doing more rather than just, you know, accepting the status quo just because it pays the bills.

I really enjoyed talking with Martin and Arlie today. They were here to change. And even when I pointed out some difficult truths, like Arlie needing to quit her network marketing business and likely find.

A job, they listened.

And I know some of it was tough to hear. So I want to thank them for being so open and so courageous to come on the podcast. The central question that I asked them was, why didn't you come up with this solution on your own? Because when you zoom out, the answer seems obvious. They're drowning in debt. Arlie makes less than $5,000 a year, and Martin can't do it alone. Therefore, Arlie needs to get a job. So my question again, why didn't they come up with this answer on their own? This is where psychology really matters. Arlie had some legitimately terrible experiences with prior jobs. Martin wants to be supportive. Neither of them have really communicated about the actual state of their finances. So from the outside, it's easy to judge couples like this and say, lol. How obvious. Duh. But here's the uncomfortable truth. If you or I had gone through the same experiences that Martin and Arlie did, it's likely we would be reacting in the same way. One of my goals with this podcast is to show you how money and psychology interact. I want to help you understand your own attitudes and behaviors you when with money by taking you behind the closed doors of other couples. So thanks again to Martin and Arlie. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. And you can find some of my best techniques on my newsletter, which you can sign up for@iwt.com.

Sa.