41. “My wife won’t admit her business is failing and we constantly argue about it”

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Olivia, she's been an entrepreneur. She's been doing her own thing for a few years now and it's not really working out. It just frustrates me because I feel that's kind of holding us back.

When we decided to get married, I was an entrepreneur at that point and I was very transparent with him about my level of work and what I was able to do. And it's very unfair for him to turn around and be upset at this point in time because I feel like he knew what he was getting into.

You're going on five years now and it's kind of come to a point where you have to see that something's not working out. You have to change something. You've had more than enough time to make it work.

It just makes me feel like a bad partner. Sorry. It makes me feel like a bad partner and. And a bad entrepreneur too.

I'm Ramit Sethi and welcome to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich today. Meet Rob and olivia. Rob makes $70,000 and Olivia makes $20,000. But they only have $5,000 in savings. That's why they Wanted to talk to me. Rob works a full time job, and he's frustrated because he feels like he's carrying the financial burden in their relationship. Olivia splits her time between part time work and her own business, but Rob doesn't think her business is bringing in enough money. He believes it's time for her to admit it's not working and for her to get a job. I wanted to speak to them because in lots of relationships, one partner will decide to make a change. Maybe they'll get a new job, maybe they'll start a new business, and it affects both of their finances. But what if the new job requires a pay cut? What if the new business doesn't take off? And how long can a relationship last if one partner's financial contributions start to feel unfair? Well, I started today's episode by asking Olivia and Rob to tell me about a recent trip they took to a furniture store. Because I want you to hear how their income disparity is affecting their lives. Welcome to the show. Let's listen in.

All of the items that Rob tended to look at were of a higher price range than I wanted to spend. And quite frankly, that I feel we could spend. And I just constantly felt myself saying, no, that's too much. No, that's too much. No, that's too much. And every time I said it, I could feel the increasing frustration with Rob trying to find something that I guess satisfied both of our needs. And it seemed like it was a harder situation than it had to be.

What was the difference in price between the ones you were looking at and the ones he was looking at?

I wanted to spend close to between $1000 and $1500, whereas Rob was okay with spending 2000 and up and around there, going for something that was leather, a little bit bigger, a little bit more luxurious. Right now it's too much because we have a very limited budget as we just purchase the home and we obviously have to be very mindful. And if it was one of those things where if we purchased that couch, we would have to very much sacrifice in other areas.

And is it common between the two of you that, Olivia, you are the one who's pulling for the lower price item and Rob is going for the higher price item, for the most part.

I guess I would be the one that wants to sort of keep things minimal budget.

Okay, and so what'd you end up doing with that couch?

We ended up finding one that was 1,800 and we both liked it. So we made a compromise.

Wait, so what's the problem. All right, so you both approached it from a different perspective. You seem to find a middle ground. Would you say that that worked out well?

Did. But I felt like there was a lot of frustration from the initial decision or from the initial, like, idea to look for something, or when we got to the decision process, I feel like it didn't have to be that frustrating or that difficult.

So in a magic wand world, what would that scenario have been like? You walk into the furniture store together. What would have happened? Walk me through it.

We would have looked at the sectionals rather than the price tags on the sectionals, first and foremost. And I think at that point, what he wanted, as long as it was the right colors and the right decor, I don't think the price would have mattered at that point in time. So I think it would have been maybe a little bit of a debate about a particular color, but I think that decision making process would have just been simplified.

So the magic wand for you in that scenario was what if we had.

A higher budget, it would have been easier for us to spend that money to make that decision.

It's kind of interesting that Olivia's answer to my magic wand question was we would have had more money. Like, okay, yes, that would have been nice, but what would have changed about the way that the two of them made decisions? She didn't talk about that. I'll come back to that later, but first I want to hear from Rob. Okay. All right, great. Rob, now you tell me about your perspective on what happened when you walked into that furniture store. What happened?

It was frustrating to have to see all these things, and you can't really afford it. It's like you're really limited to one or two pieces, and it's just. It's frustrating when I know that we don't have to be in that situation.

Yeah, why don't you have to be in that situation?

So a lot of the. This sort of circles around the pivotal conflict I think that we have in regards to finances. It might be a little. It could be a little selfish. But Olivia, she's been an entrepreneur. She's been doing her own thing for a few years now, and it's not really working out. And it just frustrates me because I feel that's kind of holding us back. So I feel like if she had a better understanding of, okay, this isn't working, maybe I should do something else. I think if that was the case, and I think we could have more financial freedom and we could reach our financial goals a Lot faster.

What's the breakdown of earning between you two?

I make around 70. I'm a salary guy. I work a regular 9 to 5 job. Her schedule is a lot more irregular. Olivia, why don't you elaborate?

Last year, for instance, my income was $20,000.

Okay. How long have you been working on your business, Olivia?

About four years, but part time. I've never been 100% fully self employed. I do contract work and do consulting as well on the side to supplement the income that I'm not making, essentially. I know that if I were to dedicate 100% of my time, I would yield results a lot faster, but I feel like I can't do that because I would be giving up the income that I do have, whatever small amount that contributes to our household. And I feel like it would make things even harder.

Okay. Do you agree with Rob's characterization of feeling frustrated that you had to look at these sectionals that were sort of not what you had in mind?

Yeah, it was frustrating for sure. And it's, you know, like Rob said, it's once you walk in the store and you kind of start really looking around at prices, like that's kind of when the reality hits you. Because I had, I mean, I was aware of furniture and pricing, but until I had, until I owned my own home, I never really had to buy it for myself. So there's been a lot of eye opening experiences in these last couple months preparing for that. It felt disappointing. It felt like at the age and stage of where I am in my life, I felt like I should have been able to, I guess, afford more, essentially.

What about Rob's comment about your business has been going on for a while, but it hasn't worked out.

It's. I mean, it's. It's not the first time I've heard that. It's not the first time we've talked about our jobs with each other and expressed our concerns essentially about each other's careers. And I understand Rob's sentiment about, you know, the business not working and being frustrated. But when we decided to get married, I was an entrepreneur at that point and I was very transparent with him about my level of work and what I was able to do. And there's a part of me that feels that it's very unfair for him to turn around and be upset at this point in time because I feel like he knew what he was getting into and that might be selfish as well. I recognize that.

Did you talk about this before you got married?

We did have some discussions but there was never, it wasn't to the in depth point of like pulling out a sheet with financials on it and saying, you know, this is my monthly earnings, this is my yearly earnings. It wasn't that detailed.

When did that happen?

If ever, like when the detailed stuff, you mean. Yeah, honestly, when we were going through the process of qualifying for a mortgage to buy a house.

Oh my God, you guys. So you didn't pull out your financials until you were already married, is that right?

Well, we had a verbal discussion, but in terms of like detailed discussion, like itemized. Yeah, the itemized stuff came until after we were married.

You know, I was very patient. She'd been doing this, this entrepreneurial thing for over, you know, I think five years now. So, you know, understanding. So I was understanding. I said, okay, that's fine. You don't. You could stop working this like full time job that you're working to, you know, make sure you have the time to do this. We would go to shows together and the, you know, so I hung in there, you know, I was working long hours and you know, I, sometimes I thought it was the load wasn't even like. So, so sure, I understand she's trying to grow her business, but you have, you know, you're going on five years now and it's kind of come to a point where you have to see that something's not working out and, you know, you have to change something. Like you're not living the life you want to live.

But I'm also not working the career I want to work. I want to be able to work for myself 100% of the time. And I can't financially do that because that would be putting all of the financial burden on you rather than most of it. And then that puts us in a different predicament. So this is the best that I could do.

But if it's not working, I mean, a good entrepreneur can realize when something's not working and then adjust.

But I've never lost money. Like there's, I'm not making as much as you want me to.

You're losing. That's. But you got to think about the opportunity cost. You could be making a lot more, doing something else.

You're right. And I could be making a lot more by not doing the side jobs that I'm doing and the consulting and focusing completely on my business, which is what I originally wanted to do. But we're at a point now where it looks like I won't be able to do that because we won't be able to support all of the household.

Costs, but I think you've had more than enough time to make it work.

Okay, Ramit, maybe we need a, maybe we need a mediator at this point. So this is where we have a lot of our frustrations and a lot of our conversations basically like come to this intersection.

You know what? I notice that everything they just told me sounds pre rehearsed, like they've had this conversation a million times. Like it feels comfortable for them to be arguing like this. I decided to push on this. I want to probe on it because very often if people in a relationship are doing something, even something that seems destructive, they're usually getting something out of it. Real question for you, do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and Book this year's appointments today with zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care, and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. Instantly click through your options, book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated Doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com Zocdoc.com Ramit what comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport, Scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed, we gotta pull all this paperwork and we're panicked cause the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend gilt now that tax season's over. This is actually the best Time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gilt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With G, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing. Credits, deductions, business structure. It's handled. And their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to Gilt's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI, and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation. And as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist again. That's joing.com ramit join G-E-L-T.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task with Gelt. They can be a tool to build wealth. You two seem to be enjoying that. Did you both enjoy that back and forth that you just had?

No, not really.

I think you did. Let me guess, you've had that same back and forth a hundred times before. Probably a thousand. Yeah. So, okay, I have some things I can talk to you about, but first I really want to understand, what are you both getting out of that.

Out of that mini conversation we just had?

Yes.

Nothing. To be honest with you, like it just ends in frustration.

No, you got something out of it because you've done it a thousand times. Tell me this, what did you just feel at the end of that conversation?

Like I made a point. Like I stood up for myself.

Yeah. And what did that feel like?

It felt good to stand my ground.

Yeah. What else? How else would you describe it?

I don't know. Like just a feeling of. Of just honesty. Of just being straightforward. It's just how I feel.

And if you share how you feel, that means that you are. What?

That I care? That I'm invested?

Yeah, that you're honest. That you're the kind of person who tells it like it is. And also you don't back down. Is there anything else?

I don't know. I. It's. It's. Sorry, it's a. It's a weird question. No one's ever like, asked me that in thinking about this. I don't.

Let me show you something.

Yeah, please do show you something.

Tell me the quadratic equation. Do you remember it?

No.

No, it's uncomfortable to be asked that question. Right. Makes you feel like, oh, I should have. Something I learned in third grade. It's uncomfortable. Did it feel uncomfortable to have that conversation with Rob just now?

A bit, yeah. Yeah.

To me it looked. You looked very comfortable.

Well, it's just that I've done it so many times before. It's like, like, I don't know, like clockwork. Like it's just like a habit. It's just like how I respond.

Uh huh. It's like brushing your teeth. It's like coming home after a long day. It's comfortable. The two of you got right into a groove. I was just sitting here with popcorn, just watching. Okay, he's gonna say this, then she's gonna say that. And you two were just overlapping like you've done it a million times. Feels comfortable. What do you think you get out of that?

To be honest, I don't know. I think maybe it's like a pseudo resolution. Like for five minutes it feels like I said something. And then until we look at our finances the next time and this conversation happens again.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like people who tell themselves, I really should work out. Maybe I'm even going to pick out some outfits to put on tomorrow. All right, I really should do it. And then they do everything except get up and go outside for a walk. But it almost feels productive to go through the entire process and not go outside. Just like the conversation you just had.

Yeah.

Bingo. Olivia was very honest about what she's getting out of this. It feels honest to talk like this. It feels like she did something productive, but ultimately she actually accomplishes nothing. These are the kinds of games we play with ourselves. We subscribe to 10newsletters, but we don't actually take action. We follow 20 productivity experts, but we don't actually go to sleep an hour earlier or use a calendar. It's funny. In self development, many of us do everything except the one thing that actually works. This has two consequences. First, it makes us feel even worse. If we tell ourselves we tried everything, even though we really didn't, and then nothing changes. What does that mean about us? Maybe I'm just a failure. Second, it damages the bonds in a relationship. Imagine how that adds up month after month, year after year. Just the arguing over and over. We all know couples whose only way of communicating is bickering. Well, how do you think they got like this? You are looking in a crystal ball with Rob and Olivia.

It's damaging. It damages our relationship. It obviously hurts Olivia.

Ask her.

Does it hurt you, Olivia?

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

Do you want me to stop being. So maybe I'm being a little too aggressive or impatient.

Rob, try this. Ask her what does it feel like to you?

What does this feel like to you?

It just makes me feel like a bad partner. Sorry for me. You should have told us to bring tissues, too. It makes me feel like a bad partner and a bad entrepreneur, too.

Rob, ask her why.

Why do you feel like that?

Because it highlights the fact that we're not contributing equally financially to our marriage. And I think that's unfair. And I know you think that's unfair. And it just puts a lot of stress on me. It just makes me. It makes me more aware of the fact that I'm not where I want to be in my career and I'm not in the income bracket that I want to be. And I feel like you have to suffer on account of me. And I don't like feeling like that. I've contributed that directly to, you know, your suffering or you not being able to experience the things that you want to in life.

I mean, it's important to understand my criticism is. And concerns are mainly coming from a place of love. Like, it's not that I want to beat you down or make you feel bad. That's not my intention.

I know. But the place they come from and the place they end up are two different places.

Do you think maybe we can work together to get through this, Olivia? What can we do to make it better?

I think a little bit less pressure and a little bit more support would go a long way. And if there's anything that I can start communicating to you to make you feel more at ease and more confident with my abilities to grow my business, I'm happy to do that as well.

Would you be willing to think about an alternative or maybe start thinking about something else?

I mean, I don't want to.

What do you want me to do to maybe help you?

A lot of it comes down to, again, just in your vocalizations of your concerns and how you say things to me and how you talk about my business. And when you say things like, it's not working, like, it just makes me want to work on it more and put more time and effort into it. And it makes me almost, like, not want to consider other options because kind of creates, like, a hyper focus for me now of, like, now that there's, like, an even bigger, glaring problem, I want to fix it that much more.

You have some very valid concerns, Rob. I want to hear Them. Tell her how you feel.

No, I feel the pressure, too. I mean, we're barely making ends meet, and it's. I feel like it's a big strain. It's a big strain, and, you know, I want to fix that strain. And I'm not sure if. If we still keep following this course, it's. I don't know if it'll get better.

Which makes you feel what, Anxious and stressed out?

It plays on my nerves, on my mind.

Olivia, do you want to ask him any questions?

I don't know. At this point, I don't know.

He just said quite a few blockbusters here. Did you hear the words he used? What were those words that leapt off the page? What were they?

Anxious.

Anxious. What else?

I think he said worried.

Worried. Don't you want to know what he means by that?

When you say you're anxious, Rob, what does that involve? What does that look like to you? What do you see in our life that exemplifies that?

Well, now with the mortgage payments, what if our car breaks down? I don't want to have to worry about getting a loan to pay for things that might come up. Just everyday living. What if we have to replace the roof? We inevitably do. We need to make sure the funds are there. And I know it's compounded now because we bought the home. So now we have these fears because it's a big expense.

Well, how long would you be willing to spend supporting me as an entrepreneur? What's essentially your cutoff date? And what's like, it's hard. You. You mention all the time about how I'm not making enough money, but then what's an actual figure? What would be an acceptable figure?

I don't want to go down the street. No.

Okay, sorry.

I noticed that the two of you love to jump to tactics and timelines really quickly, but as soon as you get there, then you both get unhappy with each other. Have you, either of you noticed that?

Yes.

Like your first two question, like, all right, so when's it going to be? And how much is it going to be? And then you both get really upset and you start being, quote, honest. Okay, honest is code for hurtful in your relationship.

Right.

The need to be honest is not really working for both of you. Honest is just a code for hurtful. So we're going to try to rewind. Rob was saying quite a few interesting things about how he feels. Do you agree with him?

I mean, I suppose I do. I see where he's coming from. And the reality is, depending on the price of said event or item or whatever. Most likely, we would have to skip out on it because of where we are right now.

Okay. You think it might be helpful and nice for him to hear that you agree with him?

Probably, yep.

Have you ever told him that you agree with a lot of his concerns?

I feel like I have. But now that you're making me recollect, I don't know if I've ever said it that literally.

Go ahead.

Rob. You are right, and I do support you, and I understand what you're having to say, and there are genuine concerns, and you absolutely have a right to feel that way. And it's completely reasonable to be concerned about those occurrences.

Let's reassure. It's. It's nice to hear that, Olivia.

That was a pretty amazing dialogue. I noticed that Olivia might have acknowledged Rob's concerns before, but she never actually told him. If you don't tell your partner something in a way that they understand, it didn't happen. I also tried to give them a different way to look at their communication. They talk about honesty a lot, but in their relationship, honesty is simply code for being hurtful. There's a great book that covers this. It's called what Got yout Here, Won't get yout There by Marshall Goldsmith. And he talks about the excessive need to be me. That feeling that I've gotta be honest, I've gotta put it all out there. I've got to let them know who I am. Which can serve you in the early parts of your career, but it can become destructive as well. The excessive need to be me. I'll tell you, I'm impressed so far. Olivia and Rob, they're aligned in lots of ways, so I want to build on that. We have a foundation to stand on together, so I'm going to use that to start talking about numbers. I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out, but for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think out loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow. To save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean final draft, writing inside whatever app you're already using. Email, Slack, Docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows, and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it. Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple Voice to Text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flow. Try it for free at whisperflow AI/ramit that's whisperflow AI ramit w I s p r flow AI ramit or click the link in the description below. There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent and I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where BILT comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month. And you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible so you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, BILT recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026. So stay tuned. Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com Ramit that's J O I N B I L T.com Ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you. Olivia do you know what number would make him not feel scarce anymore.

To give you an exact number? No, I could probably say I'm sure anything. If I was making 40, $50,000 a year and above, he'd be happy. But I don't have an exact number for him. I don't know if Rob's ever given me an exact number.

Well, have you ever asked him?

I don't know. I don't think so. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know if I ever heard, you.

Know why you haven't asked him why you were too busy being honest and getting something off of your chest. You two are throwing a 45 pound weight back and forth because it's too heavy to sit on your chest. So Rob, when it's on your chest, you can't breathe. So you know what you do? You toss it over to Olivia. Olivia hates the feeling of it. Olivia tosses it right back. He never offered. But you never asked. Well, guess what? We have a golden opportunity right now. Go ahead.

Okay, Rob, what's the magic number? What would I have to make for you to feel comfortable?

Are you assuming that it's a number that would make him feel comfortable? Oops, that was my mistake. I asked Olivia if she knew Rob's number and then when she actually asked it, I hit her with this gotcha question. So my mistake. Sorry, Olivia, you were just asking Rob what I suggested.

I am assuming that you're right. Good catch. Rob, what would it take to make you feel more secure?

I don't know, maybe a schedule or like a plan, a detailed plan. You know what I mean? And more honesty with that plan.

Rob, if she does all that and the business doesn't generate any more revenue for the next six years, but she's changing and iterating, et cetera, are you going to feel secure?

I think I would. It depends. I think if I make more money, then we have more of a cushion, you know what I mean? So even if her business stays the same, the income doesn't really change. But my income changes, then I feel I'll have more security.

How much does your income have to change by?

We're almost there. It's just that I feel we can get there with an extra maybe 20 grand, like 2 grand a month.

So let's talk a little bit about what you both can do, because I understand that what you're doing right now is not working. Working. Would that be fair to say?

Yes.

Okay, well, here's what I see. Life is fine. You both make a fine amount of money. It's fine. Your housing expense is at the upper bound of where it should be. You live in a high cost of living area. You know, some people in those areas even stretch a little bit more. But by virtue of how much you're spending on housing, and by virtue of your income doesn't leave a lot of extra to play with. That's reflected in your Savings, which is $5,000. It's reflected in your investments, which is 1500 bucks, a very, very modest amount at your ages. So when you talk about having basics, things like an emergency fund or being able to fund a leak that might happen in your house or some kind of roofing issue, you know, you're certainly at risk. If it were me, I would be pretty nervous in this financial situation. Everything probably will go fine, but I don't want to be in a situation where it doesn't go fine. So that's number one. Number two is this word freedom, Rob, that I heard you mention. The freedom to take a trip and not have to worry about how much it costs. The freedom to say, yes, we'll go out to dinner and not worry if everybody orders an extra round of drinks. That freedom is not there. It's not there psychologically. It's not there financially either. And then the third and I think most challenging aspect is that the two of you are tossing this weight back and forth and you're not rowing in the same direction. You're not a team right now, your adversaries. It's hard enough to win in life as a team with two people rowing in the same direction. It's impossible to win when you are repelling each other, going in different directions. So how do you think that we could solve this? I'm not asking what the solution is yet, but how do you think we could solve this?

I think more thorough financial planning. I think we have to start budgeting, and I think we have to be realistic about our finances and we have to start investing. You know, we can't just leave it as an afterthought. I think we have to be more mindful and we have to be more active with our money.

And what does that mean, specifically budgeting? Be active. What does that mean? When you ask people how they might find a solution, they will almost always give you bad answers. Here's what they do. They'll give you answers that sound logical. We need to keep a budget. We need to be active. None of those are the real answers. Honestly, if a budget would have worked, you would have done it already. I don't even like budgets. Anyway. It's not that people are trying to evade the question. It's that we naturally answer with what's top of mind. It's like that game Family Feud. If I asked you, what's your favorite meat? Almost everybody would say chicken. It's what's salient in our mind. What are you afraid of? Getting hit by a car? Or if you're Indian, your mom's dunda. My job is to help people go beyond the obvious answers that don't really work. Think about these phrases that we Toss around, follow your passion. Usually shared by billionaires who do not have to work with a profit motive anymore or work smarter, not harder. Usually shared by a 23 year old Instagram influencer whose parents pay for his Subaru rental. These kind of phrases make people feel good, like they discovered a secret that other people don't know. In reality, they're bromides. Phrases that make us feel good, but don't actually do anything for us. Specifically budgeting. Be active. What does that mean?

It was sort of always at the financial. Planning was always kind of in the background, you know what I mean? I think now it has to be something that we, you know, that we make effort into, looking into and taking time to plan and make sure that we're fine and that, you know, we're putting our money where it needs to go.

Okay, so planning. So that's. That's one answer. Okay, good. I agree. What else, Olivia?

I think it would be beneficial for me to reevaluate where I am in my career and make some definitive positive changes. What I deem to be positive changes for my own business.

And what would that get you towards? What would the end outcome be?

To generate more revenue, essentially, and increase my income.

How much?

Are you talking, like a yearly goal or what's my parameters?

I don't know. You tell me.

If I could be making 10,000 more dollars by next year, I would be happy with that to a point where if I could one day be making over $50,000 annually, I would be very happy with that right now.

Hold on a second. How much are you currently making?

20,000.

Okay, so when you say I would be happy making 10,000 more, right, like.

For a yearly goal, for instance, like for next year to take my income from 20,000, if I could make whatever changes I needed to in my business to get me to that next step of revenue, I would feel more comfortable, I would feel more confident, and I think Rob would also feel better as well if he saw that financial progress.

Is that true?

Yeah, I think so. But OLIVIA, like that 20 grand, that also includes the jobs that you're working part time that take away from your business. So you can't lump that together.

Well, I would obviously at this point have to continue what I'm doing. I couldn't give up my consulting on the side because we still need that supplemental money. However, I do feel that once we have our own place and a lot of the dealings with the house is behind us and my schedule frees up, I can designate that time to making those Changes.

Olivia is cruising. She's giving me an answer she thinks is right. It sounds logical, it feels good, but I'm not buying it. Here's where I step in and gently push her. And this is going to be the theme of the rest of this episode. Me getting her to believe in herself and to think bigger, to push her beyond what she thinks is possible. Because sometimes you need someone who believes in you even more than you believe in yourself. I don't. I'm not following along. Let me tell you why, Olivia. You said I would be happy if I went from 20k to 30k.

As a one year goal.

Yeah, you might be happy with that, but would that materially change your financial situation? I'm talking about the two of you.

@ this point, not a huge amount, but I think it would be enough to make a progression towards a place that we were both happy.

With. And how long would that progression take to get.

There? My goal would be within three to five.

Years. That's too long. I'm just going to tell you point blank. You're 31 years old, right? Yeah, 31 years old. You want to wait until you're 35 or 36 to be making what.

$50,000? I mean, I would ideally like to make more than that, but I'm just trying to find what I seem to be a reasonable increase. I don't think I'm in a field where making. Where like a. A 30, 40, 50% increase in my revenue would be possible. I think, I mean, it does depend on the person ultimately, but from what I've seen, it's that slow and steady progress. I don't know if I will ever hit that exponential.

Progress. What do you notice about Olivia's response? She's laid it all out there for us. She's not earning what she wants. But instead of comparing herself to what she could be earning on the open market, she's comparing herself to where she is today. But where she is today is a place that her own decisions brought her to. So she's basically picked a low benchmark. And then she said, well, it's low, so I can't really go anywhere from here. She's created a tautology. This is what I mean by the costs of indecision. Every day you're at a job you don't love. You know the one you're underpaid or not respected or not learning any skills. You are creating a belief for yourself that that's what you're worth. After a few years, it's almost impossible to See, out of the fog. Same with being in a bad relationship. Same with not investing enough. It might seem like a small problem today. Oh, I didn't really put Aside Ramit's recommended 10%, 15, 20%. But over time that problem compounds and eventually becomes very difficult, if not impossible to fix. Olivia is underselling herself and I'm going to need to be unusually direct to get her to see that. How much do you make in your business last.

Year? Around.

$8,000. Okay, so you made $8,000 from your business last year. Yes. What number should you be making in a business that you are doing that contributes to your relationship, your marriage, and your own personal career fulfillment? At 31, how much would you be making a year in your own.

Business? I would like to be making ideally more than 50,000 a.

Year. Okay, very good. I agree. Now if you say, if you come to me and said $22,000, I say that's bullshit. You're just comparing it to 8050K. Okay. Now we're talking real numbers. And realistically, if you're putting in all this work, probably working weekends, probably working late nights sometimes as an entrepreneur, you ideally want to be making more than you could be making at a full time job. Right. So give me another number that would account for all the time and risk you're putting.

In. Higher than that, maybe.

$75,000.

Okay. Do you notice that your dream, what you want to make in your own business is only 50k? That's peculiar to.

You? Well, I mean, if you asked me in my lifetime goals, I would love to make seven, seven figures annually. But I also understand that, you know, you got to take it step by step. So in, in my mind, my next step is to make 50,000. Once I get there, I want to reevaluate my financial plan and say, okay, now I want to make whatever the next increment I decide is, I don't want. I mean, again, ideally, yes, like a seven figure high six figure income would be.

Fantastic.

But. But it also is a bit of a pipe dream when I know what I'm currently making and I know how long it can take people to grow their revenue, essentially. So I'm trying to be.

Realistic. Yeah, realism is good. Nobody's talking about seven figures at this point, so let's just take that out of the equation. But Olivia, you've been stuck making less than $10,000 in your business for five years. Do you see that your dreams have shrunk and.

Shrunk?

Yeah. Think back to when you were 20 years old. What did you imagine you'd be doing in your.

30S? Making a lot more. Working. Like a 9 to 5 salary.

Job? Yeah. And now I don't mind that you want to be an entrepreneur. I'm an entrepreneur. Right. It's great. A lot of times sometimes it sucks, but that's the life. Fine. But I'm talking about your dreams. Your dreams went from upper middle class as you described it, Taking vacations, having a house to. I hope that over the course of 10 years of this business that I can make $50,000 a year. Olivia, that is not a dream. Does that dream excite.

You? I mean, from where, What I'm making right now.

No. Don't compare yourself to where you are right now. Where you are right now is a place you don't want to be. So let's not benchmark against.

That. Fair.

Enough. Talk to me about where you want to be in your rich.

Life. Yeah, I would love to be making more than 50 grand. I would love to be making six figures.

Ideally. Okay, six figures. Now maybe you won't get there tomorrow, but at least you've put an intention out there. Okay, fine. Okay, let's come up with a plan. Listen, you make 90k household income. How much would you need to make per year for both of you to feel good? Not great. I'm not talking about a million dollars a year to feel.

Good.

150,000. Where'd you come up with that.

Number? Just looking at 150 divided by 2 would be 75,000. So I figured if we were both making that, that seems like quite a reasonable income that we could again satisfy all of our financial goals.

With. Okay, well, at this stage there's no magic formula. Okay? We're just pulling out of thin air and that's okay. Now I want to get them to zoom out of their day to day money situation and describe their rich life vision. This isn't just a gimmick. It's a way for them to get out of the weeds and to paint a vivid picture of what they actually want to do. This is what they're working for. And if they decide to make changes, this vision is what's going to keep them from focused. A specific personal rich life vision is a thousand times more motivating than cell F13 in a spreadsheet. As Rob and Olivia describe their vision, notice how their tone changes. When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more free freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use, but so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIT once more. Gusto.com ramit AI is supposed to make work easier, but now it seems like you have to hire an AI consultant just to figure out which tool handles what. Are you using AI for writing? Or is there another one to use for meetings? What about one for project planning? And they actually don't talk to each other. That's when things start slowing you down instead of helping you move faster. But Notion, the sponsor of this episode, can help solve that. With Notion, everything is in one place. Clean, simple, easy to use. And now with Notion AI built right in, it's even more powerful. Enterprise search can pull answers from tools like email, Jira, even PDFs, research mode, writes full reports in minutes and meeting notes, captures and summarizes everything so key decisions don't get lost. No more bouncing between apps, no more guessing where things live. Just one system that keeps things moving. That's why more than half of Fortune 500 companies use Notion. Try Notion AI, the best AI tool for work by going to notion.com ramit that's all lowercase n o t I o-n.com r a m I t notion.com.

Ramit we go to Italy and we port from there. There's a 10 day cruise that's a part of our itinerary and we go through the Mediterranean and we see a number of cities and stop and try all of the different foods that we want. And then after the cruise portion we go to the rest of Europe that's not on the coastline and we go visit lots of different countries and eat all of the different foods and see the beautiful landscapes and maybe see family there as.

Well. Okay. Go up to Rome, see the Colosseum. I just want to sit back and watch the sea with a pizza, a cocktail or maybe an espresso, depending on what time of day. Just taking the heat. Ideally getting away from the Canadian winter, that'd probably be the best.

Time. How would you two feel sitting on the ocean side, pizza in one hand, good Italian beer in the other, watching the ocean and the sunset? How would that feel to both of.

You? That feels so comforting. It feels relaxing. It feels fulfilling.

Happy. I love that. To me, it also would feel like.

Accomplishment. Yeah.

Absolutely. We did this. We went from. What was that old thing that we now mythologized in this relationship? What was that dark place we never want to go back.

To? The furniture.

Store. The furniture store, that place. We are never going to go back into that flea ridden furniture store. And now where are.

We? On the.

Coast. On the coast. What a beautiful progression in life. Can you feel the difference as you talk about that.

Trip? Oh.

Totally. Yeah, totally. It's totally different than the typical dynamic when the two of you talk about money, isn't it? Totally. What's different? It's about dreaming. And by the way, this dream is not a fantasy. Do you see that? It's actually somewhat realistic to be able to take a trip like.

This. Yeah.

Totally. Not today, but soon. Okay. We're going to get there in just a second. This trip, what you described to me, is not a million dollar trip. How much does it cost? Ballpark it for me. Just.

Ballpark. Six grand. Five.

Grand? I was gonna say 10.

Grand. Ten.

Grand. Okay.

Great. Let's go for the higher number. I like to be conservative. Let's pick the higher number. 10 grand. Okay. Could you afford this trip.

Today?

No. No, I agree. Could you afford this trip if you made.

120K? Yes.

Probably.

Yeah. Okay. What about.

150? Yeah.

Definitely. Most.

Definitely. Okay. All right. So as you create your conscious spending plan from chapter four, you will see exactly when you can afford this. It may take you a little bit of savings. I actually think the two of you are going to find a lot of joy in coming up with this rich life goal and putting money towards it every single month, which will happen automatically because each month you do that, you're getting one step closer to taking this trip and knowing all your other stuff is being handled. You got your savings being built and a little investment, but you're working towards something that's almost going to transform the chapter of your relationship. So we think maybe at 120, you could do it. Maybe at 150, you feel very certain. Great. So it sounds like you have a goal of making $120,000 in roughly the next 12 months in your relationship. Is that fair to.

Say? Yeah, that's.

Reasonable. I think so.

Yeah. Okay, so you're at 90 right now. Let's talk about. What are your options in order to get to.

120? Well, I think a very easy answer would be to increase my income. Rob and I could both collectively increase our.

Incomes. Okay, I'm going to ask each of you, how could you do that? Rob, let's start with you. How could you increase your income in the next 12.

Months? I think for me, it'd be maybe incorporating some kind of a side hustle. Okay. Putting in some weekend work, buying bitcoin. I'm kidding. Yeah. I think maybe just more side hustles, or maybe buying and even getting into some kind of a hobby, maybe like woodworking or refinishing furniture. I don't know. Like, that's. That's the immediate. Immediate thought that comes to my.

Mind. Okay. And would you be interested in doing something like.

That? Right. The problem is now with work, especially now we're moving further out. I'll be. I'll be out of the house for, like, 12 hours a day. It's hard for me to say yes 100% because I might just not have the energy to do.

It. Okay, fair enough. So let's say that's a maybe. We understand there's some commute changes that are going to happen. Fine. But there is an option from your end. Good to know.

Olivia. Yeah. I mean, I could stop doing the consulting and finding another job that could provide a more regular, steady income. And also having a more predictable schedule would allow me to work in my off time more efficiently as well. I think so. I think it's a combination of both. I could focus a little bit more on the business and actually make the progress I want to. And I won't have to worry that my other income is lacking because I'll have, again, the regular paycheck, the regular schedule. It makes it a lot easier to plan from that.

Point. Okay. In terms of your business, I want to give you a couple of suggestions. I never think it's a good idea to tell an entrepreneur, close down your business, because entrepreneurs are kind of delusional. And if somebody tells them that no matter how bad the business is doing, they go, I was just about to make it. You Know, in a way, it's like a gambler's fallacy. So you can't do it. You can't do that. There's a different way to do it, which is this. Let's create a concrete, quantifiable goal, okay? You do whatever you need to do to hit that goal. But if at the end of the time period that we all agree on, the goal is not hit, it's time to say bye bye to this business. Okay. You're so young and you have such a long life. Hopefully this business hits big. But if not, you probably have five other businesses in you, and it would be a tragedy for you to be wasting years of your life on a business that is just not taking off. Okay, so tell me what these numbers and these goals are for you to decide if this business is going to go on or.

End by next year. I would really like, like to generate $50,000 as.

Income. That's good. But next year is a very broad time.

Range. I mean, I guess by the end of next year, next calendar year.

You want to wait over 13 or 14 months. That seems way too long. Why don't we start by asking Rob? Rob, what would be a reasonable timeframe for Olivia to try whatever tactics she's going to try with her business and to determine if the business has legs or needs to shut.

Down? Six months? Four. Say six months. Maybe even less than.

That. Like what? Maybe if Rob's about to say like two weeks and then toss it.

Out. Rob's about to say.

Yesterday. That would be Rob's. Like two weeks and then this thing is shut down. All right, give us another number.

Rob. I think maybe. Yeah, like, like four months, maybe. I think four months is plenty. Especially because, you know, it's not like you're starting it from scratch. Right? So I, I think if you're going to make any changes, you're probably going to see the results sooner rather than.

Later. Okay, Rob, ask her. Do you notice what I've been doing this whole conversation? What have I been doing differently than what both of you typically.

Do? You're telling us to maybe communicate with the other person more instead of imposing our own ideas. And.

Will.

Yeah. Ask a lot of questions. So I like what you just said, Rob, but ultimately, who has to agree to.

This? Olivia. Olivia has to be able.

To. Go ahead, ask. Let me give you a hint. The more words you use, the worse it's going to be. And this is for both of you. The more words you use, you start to lose all power and meaning and the other person, because of the relationship that you formed, is looking for a way to knife their way out of it. So really think before you ask this question and make it.

Crisp. Do you think four months is enough.

Olivia? It sounds like a little short to me. I think six months would be more.

Reasonable. What's the difference between four and.

Six? I mean, two months, you could make significant progress in that amount of.

Time. All right, while you're working on this business, what's up with finding the job as.

Well? I'm not prepared at this moment to apply, so I feel like I would need a day just to sort of get a resume in order to get me up to speed. But I feel like within a few weeks, maybe a month, I could find alternate.

Employment. That's pretty.

Interesting.

Yeah. I love your confidence, by the way. That's awesome. I love that. Okay. It takes me a day to. To get my resume. Look how fast you're moving. How come you move so fast on.

That? Because I feel very confident about the things that I'm in control in. Like I know I could do my resume. That's completely up to me. I feel that I start to get nervous when other people are involved in things. And I'm not the only, you know, when there's variables, that's when what concerns.

Me. I agree. I hate the variables of people myself. Sometimes I'm like, can you guys just do it my way? What's the problem here? I feel you on that. Okay, you can get a job within a few weeks. I absolutely love it. And that job is going to pay you again? Ballpark it for.

Me. I'm thinking around $40,000 at least. Minimum.

Yep. Up to. What would be another. What's the high end of that? Reasonable.

Range. Let's say.

50,000. Great. Aim for.

50.

Okay. If you only make 40, Rob, how would you feel about her making $40,000 a year, steady.

Income? I feel great. I think that really help.

Out.

Yeah. Good.

Good. So 40 to 50. Aim for 50. Okay. I think you can do it. It's a good labor market too. Really good labor market. Paid a lot of money. Okay. So do that. And because you're so confident and I love it, I agree with you, Olivia. I think you can take the extra two months, put that six months into your business. Weekends, nights, whatever it is that you need to do and give yourself a full shot at success then. The reason that you get, in my opinion, six months rather than haggling over four is, hey, you're earning money with your full time job. That's fantastic. So it's like a win win for everybody, Olivia, for you. You're going to restart your career, which will be great. You are going to have a predictable schedule, which will be awesome. You're going to have some time to focus on your business and a clear six months to get this thing going or put an end to it. And of course, Rob, you're going to get stability and higher income for the household. And what are the two of you going to get with this, by the way? What's that thing that we're working.

Towards? The trip to.

Europe? It's very concrete, very. Of course you'll do all the automation and investments and of course you're going to do all that. But that doesn't get you up in the morning, does.

It? No.

No. It's the Oceanside pizza. That's the vision that I want you talking about every single month. How we doing? How we doing? Italy, Greece. Oh, can't wait. Okay, now I just have a question for you, Olivia. How do we know at the end of six months whether the business is, quote, successful or.

Not? Well, I think prior to beginning this new reimagined business journey, it's coming up with a figure. And if I can hit that figure, I think it's a good indication that I'm making the progress that will help build my business to the level I want it.

To. I agree. Let's do the number right now. Go.

Ahead. I would say $15,000 as the first increment. If I could go from making like 8 grand last year, basically doubling that, like making 15, I would be happy. Higher than.

That. Again, Olivia is benchmarking against what she currently makes instead of what she could make on the open market. She's essentially self handicapping or giving herself a way to dream smaller. That way, if she makes $15,000, she could say, see, I did it. But $15,000 won't change her life. It's not meaningful. It's a number she set because she feels scared to dream bigger. Experienced entrepreneurs know that you're going to work basically just as hard to make $50,000 as $15,000. So why not go for more? I think that Olivia has been driving in the fog for so long that she can only see 15ft in front of her. So me asking her to look a mile down the road is very hard and very scary. I have to push her to get out of this scarcity mindset. I'm not inspired by that. What 15k for you. Doing a business over what time.

Period over the six.

Months. No, come on, Olivia. You know how many people I help start businesses. 15k is not. First of all, it's not inspiring. And second of all, it doesn't do anything for your financial situation. Olivia, remember what I told you about taking your old mindsets and throwing them in the trash and taking them out to the trash.

Bin? It's easier said than.

Done. Of course. I know. Well, let's do it together. Okay. That's why I'm here. So I'm going to go out to the trash bin real quick. Hold on, let me rip that trash bag open. Oh, yeah, there's that old mindset. What was that mindset you used to use with your business regarding how much you make with.

It? That I would be happy just to make 15,000 or be happy to make more than what I had.

Before? Yeah, fuck that. Olivia, let me tell you how an entrepreneur thinks. Let me just tell you point blank, this is how I think. I go, listen, I manage a lot of people. I work with an amazing team, I take financial risks, sometimes I work weekends, et cetera. I better be making more than I could make on the open market and a lot more. Now I'm willing. Some years it's not going to be as much. Some years I might lose money, but I have to know that I'm working for something and that something has to be way bigger than I could make in a 9 to 5 job. So take that aggressive, assertive mentality I just gave you and adapt it for your situation as an entrepreneur. What's the.

Number?

$50,000. Okay. And break that down for me. Is that 50k in the last month? Over the course of six months. What are we talking.

About? $50,000 within six.

Months? Okay. Okay, I like it. I'm going to probe a couple holes here just because this is going to come up eventually. By the way, you look very uncomfortable. Am I reading this correctly?

Yeah. You know what? When you've operated from, like, a survival mindset for so long, it feels so foreign to like. Like, it feels fantastical. Like, I know you keep saying it's not a fantasy, but, like, from where I'm standing right now, these things, they appear to be a.

Fantasy. I know. And that's even the more reason that you need to push hard and push fast or get out of this business, because this business is making you think so small that it's tragic. You're sitting here telling me 15k over, what was it, six months? Hold on, I'm going to do the math right now. I'M about to puke. 2,500 bucks a month after five years of running a business. No, no, that's unacceptable. You're thinking way too small. I just can't allow it. My job is to get you to think bigger. And if the best you can squeeze out of this business after five years, if the best is 2,500 bucks a month and you're really trying and you want it to get bigger than that, then maybe this is not the right business for you. I think you probably have something bigger inside of you than.

This. It almost feels inauthentic to want.

More. Yeah.

What? Why is.

That? Because I've just been at a certain income level for so long and I feel like I've just almost, I don't know, acclimatized to the lifestyle that my current income provides. And it just like it, it almost, I don't know, it just, it feels like, like above myself. Like, who do I think I am to want to earn that much money? Like it doesn't even sound realistic when I say.

It. That's sad to.

Me.

Sorry. You don't have to apologize. But it's sad that you don't think you deserve more than $2,500 a month from a five year old business. And what makes me hopeful is that we are coming up with a plan together with Rob so that you can find out if this business is right for you or if there's something else that's right for you. Did you know, by the way, when you told me about the job you had in your 20s at the college, that was the only full time job you.

Had? Uh, yeah. Yeah. My other jobs were all part time.

Jobs. Yeah. And so you had this, you made this offhand comment at one point. You know, I don't, I wouldn't want to go back and work full time somewhere, but. But the only place you worked was the college you went to, Right. You have no knowledge of what other jobs and other managers could be out there. It might turn out that you love it, but deep down in your head, to close this business down and work a 9 to 5 means that.

You are, what, a.

Failure. Yeah. Do you believe.

That? I don't want to believe.

That. I don't believe it. I believe it's very courageous to take a look at something that's going on in your life and say, this might not be working for me. Maybe it's the I picked the wrong domain name, or maybe the market doesn't like me, or maybe I'm just over my Skis. But whatever the reason, I'm just not enjoying it. It's not working. And I'm going to put an end to this because my future is bigger than my past. That's courageous to.

Me. Thanks, Ramit. It's nice to hear.

That. Yeah. That's why I'm hopeful for you, because I want you out of this quicksand. I'm using vivid imagery so Olivia can connect with it. Quicksand. Everyone can envision a cartoon with quicksand. That feeling of slowly sinking, of being totally helpless. These are the kinds of things you will rarely hear talked about in financial discussions. It's easier for someone wearing this rumpled suit to talk about expense ratios and estate planning than it is to get vivid and specific and even theatrical with the terms we use. But that is what connects with someone like Olivia. That's actually what connects with all of us. I'm going to keep going on this metaphor of quicksand, and I'm going to get Olivia involved in co creating it with me. What we got to name this quicksand that you're stuck in right now? This quicksand is murky and it makes you shrink like one of those Honey, I Shrunk the kids movies that came out when we were kids. What do we want to call this quicksand? This land that you are stuck in right now, Olivia? Name it for.

Me. I don't even know. It's like the.

Badlands. Okay, I like that. Rob, you good with that name? Because you're going to be using this name in a.

Second. I was more so thinking Iowa. No, I'm kidding. Yeah, I think.

Badlands. I like the Badlands. So what is this place? The Badlands. What happens there?

Olivia? It's where all of my thoughts about, or I guess my thoughts and my beliefs, my internalized scripts ruminate, like around. Yeah, it's all the negativity and.

Everything. I can see a witch's cauldron in there, and there's just someone just stirring this pot. And in this pot, there's little word bubbles coming up, floating above it. One of them says, you are not enough. One of them says, if you close this business, you will be a. Finish the.

Sentence.

Failure. You will be a failure. And the other one says, maybe I can make $800 a month. You know, just these terrible phrases. Okay? It also, like a video game character in this badland, it shrinks you. So you walked in there at your normal height and your normal strength, but day by day, it's shrinking you, isn't.

It?

Yeah. How's it shrinking.

You? It eats away at my confidence, it eats away at my motivation, it eats away at my creativity, my willingness to take on challenges and to set goals and to go after.

Things. Yeah. Now I want you to do an exercise with me. Think of yourself at 21 years.

Old.

Okay. Okay. And just visualize what you're wearing and what you look like now. Imagine you just a couple of months ago. You've been in the Badlands for four plus years. What is the difference? What did you look like at 20 versus what does the person in the Badlands look.

Like? The person in my 20s was a lot happier, a lot more optimistic, more carefree. The version a couple years ago feels more burdened, feels maybe trapped.

Almost. What's the difference in what they're.

Wearing? In my 20s, I'm wearing what I would normally wear to, like, going out to a club. And then in my 30s, just like my, like, everyday, like, if I'm at home, I'll usually just wear, like, leggings and a T shirt or, like, leggings and a hoodie. And that's what I envisioned myself.

In. That's fair enough. But when you wear those clothes in the Badlands, what happens to those clothes? Remember, it's toxic in there. There's a witch's cauldron. What's happening to everything you're.

Wearing? It's, like, deteriorating. It hurts. There's scars and scratches and.

Scrapes.

Yes. Yeah, it's terrible. Your hair's all disheveled. It's not a good place to be. And I know, I love that word you use, carefree. I see the person in their 20s, they're smiling. That's the way that I can tell. There's lots of laughter. And the person in the Badlands. Okay. How do they look on their.

Face?

Worried. Worried. That's it. That's the word. Worried. Now, you know what I want to point out to you? You don't have to be the person in the Badlands. Did you know.

That? I'm sure deep down inside I did, but I didn't. You know, it's like I didn't even consider.

It. Who's the only person keeping you in.

There? I am.

Yeah. And it's all up here in your head, isn't it? Totally. I have a lot of sympathy for Olivia. I've been through this myself, and I've seen it in thousands of my students who have taken our business programs and tried to start a business. For example, they'll join our earnable program and they'll be nervous about not having an idea. Or if they come with an idea, which is less common, they feel like they have to make it work. This is my one idea. And they'll go through the videos and they'll watch us show them the timelines of how long it takes. And they will use our scripts to reach out to prospects. And we repeatedly remind them, this is going to take time. Your first idea likely will not work. And they nod. They go, okay, okay. But deep down, they want it to work on the first try and when it doesn't, because starting a business takes time and sometimes lots of tries. You see two different responses. Some people shrug, they nod, and they say, okay onto the next idea. These people have typically experienced failure before, and they know if one thing doesn't work out, it's no big deal. There are more fish in the sea, they're ready to keep trying. The next group is so nervous about failure, they're so in their head that the minute something doesn't go right, they quit. They blame the idea, they blame themselves, they blame me. But they never realize it's actually the way they approach hard things in life that's holding them back. And it can be starting a business, it can be starting a fitness journey, it can be starting to become a great parent, can be any number of things, but they are just not willing to give it the time. Olivia is an interesting variation of someone who did get started and she actually had some success, but she has become satisfied with small results. I don't think she would ever let a friend accept the these kinds of results. She would never let a friend say, oh, I made $8,000. True success would be making $15,000 in one year. What? No. I don't mind if it sounds a little harsh for me to push her, but the fact is, sometimes you need somebody who can push you to think bigger than you would think yourself. I know Olivia would tell her friend to think bigger, to move faster, or if it's not working, to move on. But she has settled with herself. I'm hoping that my own story can help her see this. When I first started out, which I would say is probably in a similar situation to where you are now, all I was doing was every day I was showing up and I was doing what I thought was cool and would help me grow. And I had a very, very long time horizon, okay? Like, I was like, I don't need to make money on this anytime soon. But as I started to get a little bit more sophisticated, for example, I Started to need to make more money, right? I was like, oh, like, I have expenses. And then I also started to say, oh, my gosh, I get like three customers a day. Then I started to think to myself, okay, like, what does this mean? And so at the time, I was doing many different things, much like you are now. And so what I did was I just kind of on the back of a piece of paper, I said, okay, six months from now, what should this be doing? It was exactly the same process that we're doing right now. And the number I picked was arbitrary, just like the number you picked was. But it told me, like, if it was 50k, that tells me that I'm doing something meaningful. Because if it's 50k, I could probably turn it into 100k. And that starts to get really interesting. On the other hand, if I only made 5k, that tells me point blank, like, I tried. I don't know why it didn't work. Maybe it was me, maybe it was the market, maybe it was the product. But I don't really care. I'm done. It just gave me a benchmark to make decisions. And I like that. Because we play tricks on ourselves. We tell ourselves, well, it's because of this, and it's because I have my consulting and da, da, da. And if I really focused on it, I could do it. It's all lies. All we need is something. We just pick an arbitrary goal. The goal could even be wrong. There were a couple times where I set a goal and I didn't hit it. But I was like, you know what? There's something here. I'm going to keep going. I'm going to ignore my old rule. I broke my own.

Rule.

Mm. But I could tell that there was trajectory. It kept me honest. Okay, I was.

Upset.

Always. Let me tell you something, though. The way that I was able to finally become decisive, which is a word that is my greatest wish for you, is to become decisive. The way that I became decisive was to say I could spend the next five or 10 years of my life trying to score, squeeze out 1% gains. And I said, I have more to offer this world than 1% gains. And in your case, $800 a month. That can't be all I have. Otherwise, what am I doing on this plan? I just don't. I refuse to believe. Allowed me space to think of new things and just to kind of be with it. You know, if you've ever liked, ended a relationship, sometimes it just. You need that space to just think, be by yourself and Then you can start to plot a course going forward. But you can't do it if you have one foot in it. You can never do.

That.

Right. That's one of the reasons that I'm really urging you to set a goal. Not to feel like the goal is actually constricting you, but rather it's freeing. It's going okay, well, now I know I got six months. Either I'm going to make 50k, somehow, some way, or I'm not. Regardless, I'm going to know exactly what to do on six month and one day it's going to be crystal clear. And that feels so good. It's hard. It's going to be hard. After we get off this call, you're going to feel different emotions. You know, you'll feel a sense of elation. You're going to feel a little bit bewilderment. You know what just happened. And you're going to wake up tomorrow and you're going to first feel excited. And then suddenly you might feel a little disappointed because that sense of elation went away. When you're confronted with, well, I'm still in my same house and I still have my same financial problems. So I don't want you to focus on changing your mindset first. Oftentimes that comes second. You know what comes.

First?

No. What was that thing you told me you can do in one day and you felt so confident about.

It? To do my.

Resume? Yeah. That's the first step to getting out of this sludge, isn't.

It?

Yeah. Okay, so you do that. What do you do.

Next? Look for jobs in the salary range that I'm, that I'm focused.

On. Very.

Good. Good. Now you're getting a little momentum. You've taken two or three steps out of that slide. You're getting better at.

It. What's next then of those jobs? Refine them to look for something that I'm good at and I know I can progress in and land the.

Job. Let's just skip ahead because I have total confidence in you like you do. You're going to land the job. Great. Suddenly you're making more money. Awesome. But you're not done yet, are.

You?

No. What do you need to do before you can get out of the this.

Area? Reevaluate my current.

Business. Yeah. Do you know how you're going to do.

That? I have some ideas as of right.

Now. Very good. And do you have a timeframe? What's that specific.

Timeframe? Sooner rather than later, I guess within a couple weeks, maybe Within A month. I'd want to reevaluate.

Everything. I figure sooner the better. Let's.

Move.

We're. Again, we're not comparing ourselves to this slow moving person who's stuck in the mud. We're moving fast. Like that 20 year old moved. Okay. And then how long do you get to work in your business and prove out if it is real or.

Not? Six.

Months. Correct. And by that time you will have made how much? If it's going to keep running $50,000. Okay, very good. And if it makes $49,687, what would you.

Say? That it's not 50.

And. No, I would count it. Honestly, I would count it. I'm not.

Gonna. You're testing me. I don't.

Know. No, no, no, no, no. Let's, you know, 49 is close enough. All right. Congratulations. Keep doing the business. But what if it's.

41? Probably time to reevaluate at that.

Point. It's time to end.

It.

Yeah. Let's just get clear with what we're actually saying here. We're not reevaluating, to be blunt. The business either makes $50,000 from today, all the way six months from now, or I think what we're agreeing to, what you and Rob are agreeing to is you shut it.

Down.

Yeah. Is that your understanding.

Olivia? Yep.

Okay. And how do you feel about.

That? Nervous, for sure. It's. I feel there's a bit of overwhelm because again, it's. It's like. It's almost like starting from the beginning again of. Of when I first started the company and I had all the original goals and how much I wanted to make and how fast I wanted to do things. But it also. But it feels good, though. It feels good knowing that, like, there's progress, There's. There's progress that can come from.

That. Yeah. Progress can come from the business or it can come from closing the door on that and doing something totally different in order to go and progress towards the rich life that you want. All we know is one thing. You cannot keep doing what you have been.

Doing.

Yeah. I had a friend of mine years ago, and I was about to make a career move, but I had a big identity around this thing that I was doing. And, you know, I was known for this thing, and I was kind of ready to move on, and I went out to a taqueria in San Francisco with my friend and I was like, well, you know, I kind of want to do this other thing, but I'm known for this. And she said to me something I'll never forget. She said, you know what, Ramit? In Silicon Valley, people are known for what they're doing, not for what they.

Did. In a way, you're passionate. Past is irrelevant and you can create any future you want.

To. When was the last time you did something fun with.

Money? Maybe our.

Honeymoon. Yeah, probably the.

Honeymoon. It's too long. You got to do something fun. I don't care if it's going to a restaurant or getting takeout and sitting outside, I don't care. But it's something celebratory, something different than you would normally do because you two are both. We've talked a lot about the Cauldron and the Badlands, but right now the two of you both still see money quite negatively. It's combative. And you may want to create a name for where you used to be. You know, I might suggest you call it the furniture store. Whatever you want. But you got to start moving towards a new place and that has new rituals, doesn't it? And one of those rituals has got to be, hey, we set a goal, we both achieved it in a short amount of time. We gotta go out and celebrate and pat ourselves on the.

Back. It's definitely a lot more easy to do that when you have that motivation, for.

Sure. Exactly, exactly. That's the key of everything we've talked about today. What do you have that you didn't have.

Before? A resolution together, A common.

Goal. Common goal. A goal. And that goal is in part inspirational, aspirational. The Italy and Greece trip, which I absolutely love. I loved hearing you describe. Also is financial. Yeah, of course. You want to cover the mechanics and be able to have a three month emergency fund and then start investing. Yes, yes to all of the above. And now that you have that, suddenly a lot of decisions become clear. It's pretty awesome to see your partner. I'm talking about both of you, like fully engaged with what they're doing. That feels amazing. And I think that's going to be joyful for both of you to.

Watch.

100%. You two were great. Thank you so.

Much. This is awesome. Ramit, can't thank you enough. And this is perfect timing. Our house is actually closing tomorrow, so this weekend we're moving. So this is like this meeting plus the new house, plus everything. It's like a full, like do.

Over. I feel like, fantastic. It's the next chapter of your rich life. I'm so excited for you both. This is really a story about settling for too little Rob and Olivia. Came to me ostensibly to talk about a furniture purchase, maybe about an income disparity. But as the story went on, you learned we didn't even speak to Rob that much. This story is truly about Olivia. And by settling for substandard results, by settling for too little for too long, she's gotten used to it, and she can't see a way out. And that was what got me interested. I consider it a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to. And when I see somebody like Olivia, who's very intelligent, who can earn much more at her age, with her skills in this economy, to settle for making $15,000 or $20,000, it frustrates me. It makes me say, there's more you can be doing, and it's costing you a lot. It's really damaging their relationship. So that's why I wanted to talk to them. And I knew that it would be interesting to find out why Olivia is settling for so little. What I realized in talking to her was that it's been going on for so long that she doesn't know any other way. Now. This is why my greatest wish for her and for you is to become decisive. Decisive means you're willing to make changes. If something is not working, you call the ball, and you trust yourself to know that you can find something better. Speaking to Rob and Olivia, I was a little more directive with Olivia than I usually am. I'm okay with that, that usually I'm not. I want people to come to their own conclusions. But there were certain times today where Olivia was just dreaming too small. She was willing to settle for too little. She said, you know, I'll. I'll be happy if I can make $8,000 more. No, no, you can't be happy with that. You have too many skills in too good of a market with too much on the line. Specifically your relationship with Rob. To settle for that. Oh, I can take 12 months, 18 months. No, we can move a lot faster. And the reason that I felt so comfortable doing this by the end was how confident she was about her resume. Again, just another example that sometimes people need somebody to believe in them more than they even believe in themselves. Thank you for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'll talk to you next week. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach youh to Be Rich, my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library. And it will show you this specific tactic for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal.