45. “She tells me that it’s my fault we can’t live the life we want to live”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered, how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question, There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast, although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to find an extra thousand dollars a month and how to do a Rich Life annual review. Plus we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching.

When I sit there and I look at it all by myself, you know, makes sense in my head. But then whenever it comes up in conversation, my mind starts to start spinning. I get like choked up or I get like. I don't know if it's like a nervous or like an anxious feeling that I start to feel in the back of my head. I kind of feel like I feel like my dad's standing right here.

What is he saying to you?

All the stuff that he told me when I was a kid, like money doesn't grow on trees and you need to be able to take care of your family. You can't take care of your family if you're working at McDonald's. You need to be successful. I just wanna, you know, like I wanna live my life to where I don't have to worry about any of that.

Today I'd like you to meet Andrew and Sarah. Sarah's in her late 20s. She makes $85,000 per year and has very little debt. Basically just about $10,000 left to pay off on her student loans. Andrew is in his early 30s. He makes $75,000 a year, but he has over $65,000 in debt. They live together, but they aren't married yet. Now, here's the problem. Sarah wants to spend her money on travel and things together, but every time she brings it up, Andrew says no. After all, he has over $65,000 in debt. And Sarah is getting increasingly irritated that they can't seem to do anything because Andrew always says no. And she's becoming judgmental about how he spends his money. As you listen to today's episode, I think you will see that the real story goes a lot deeper than what you initially think. All the way back to Andrew's childhood. Welcome to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. Andrew, I understand that recently you and Sarah discussed going to Hawaii. Can you talk me through that conversation that you had with her?

Yeah, so pretty much we were actually. We were just in a gas station about to fill up my tank. And so there was a long line of cars. And she had brought up going to Hawaii because she had seen these ticket prices that were, they were lower than usual. She was, you know, she checks the travel sites a lot to see where we can get good deals on travel. I already started kind of being like, oh, man, here we go talking about Hawaii again. Because we had talked about this, like, six months before and then like a year before. And it's. Every time we talked about it, I felt like the bad guy because I pretty much said, like, it's probably not a good idea to go to Hawaii because I. I'm not ready for it, like, financially. And whenever I say that, I can already see in Sarah, just from her facial expression and then her demeanor, it. It kind of turns to this, like, sour look to where, like, almost like, well, what's, you know, what's the point of even bringing this up if. If we're never going to be able to go? And so I feel like I always end up being the, like, a burden because it's like, well, we can't go because I can't afford it.

So did you go to Hawaii?

We did not.

Sarah, walk me through that experience. When you're in the gas station and you brought up these ticket deals you found to Hawaii, what was going through your head right before you brought up the ticket prices?

Well, I mean, the deal was, I thought it was really, really good. It was round trip for $800 for two people. And then in my head, it's like, well, our last major trip was over a year ago. Surely he must have saved at least a grand or two since Then, you know, he was essentially stepping on eggshells. Yeah.

And how was he doing that?

He was like saying, oh, I need to check my accounts, I need to make sure that I have enough money, I need to check my schedule, all that jazz. It's almost as if he was trying to delay the question because these deals are only for at most 48 hours and after that it's gone.

Okay, so did you know that he was delaying the real answer?

Yeah, I had a feeling.

Okay, and then how did you respond when he said all these things?

I was very disappointed. I mean, I see all my friends, you know, just going out and having fun and it's like, you know, I want to go out and have fun too. I want to go out and have fun with Andrew and let's go to someplace that's, I guess, exotic, that's in the States. I'm not asking for us to go internationally.

Do you think that he can afford it?

Honestly, I think he can afford it if he was a little bit more strict with his finances. But then again, that's just me though.

Andrew, do you think you could afford it?

I, I, I feel like I don't just because I, I know how much debt I have and I feel like having, having that over my, like over my head. It, it almost makes me not want to spend even the, even the money that I have even budgeted for a trip. The way my savings and my, all my deductions work. I actually, it's based off of the rules you have in your book. Funny thing. So I have like, oh, I mean, it's been working. Yeah, it's like a slow progression that's piling on on those little accounts. I feel like that was, that's a good start for me. It's just, you know, it's just like I feel it gets overwhelming whenever we talk about it because it's kind of like I feel like I need to keep the money that I have so I can pay this debt off.

This question of can I afford it is a really interesting one. You might be shocked to know that two different people with exactly the same amount of money will look at a trip that costs $5,000 and one will say, oh yeah, I can afford that, and the other will say they cannot. I've talked to people who are about to buy something like a fourteen hundred dollar handbag, and they ask what I think. I'm looking at their finances and I say, you can't afford it. And they get mad because they believe they can. So why can't we agree if we can afford something. Well, here's why. Let me give you a couple of examples. Let's say you're thinking of taking a weekend trip to visit your old college friends. Can you afford the weekend away if you have debt? What if that debt is credit card debt? What if it's a student loan? What if it's a mortgage? You can see why the affordability question is tricky. And it can get even more complicated. For example, some people create their own internal rules of what they can afford. Let's take me, I have a money rule that I want a year of expenses in a savings account. If I don't have that, then to me I cannot afford a vacation. Some people just look at the price of a restaurant or a theme park and say, hey, we can't afford that. A lot of times it's based on what they think it should cost. Often what it cost 25 years ago. Sometimes it's based on how much they have in their checking account. That is a very simplistic way that a lot of people make their financial decisions. My point is, the can I afford it? Question is not as simple as you think. It is as much about your feelings as your actual numbers. You want to see what I mean? In Andrew's case, He has about $65,000 of debt, but he also has six figures of money in investments. You know what's interesting is you have $112,000 in your investments. That's a lot at your age, 32. So how do you feel about those numbers?

Well, I mean I know whenever I, I don't check my investments. Maybe only like twice a year, maybe.

Every six months following following the IWT system. That's what I like.

And so like whenever I see it, like actually when I, when I looked at it to fill in the sheet that was sent to us, that was the, that was the only other time I looked at it I was like, oh, I didn't realize I was at six digits already. And so that's right.

Hold on for everybody listening, make sure you just heard what Andrew said. Oh, I just followed the I Will Teach youh Be Rich system. I didn't even realize my investments were at six figures. That's how it works. All these Looney Tunes people writing me online writing, oh, should I buy this book? I don't know. I'm a left handed Eskimo. Does it work for me because I live south of the equator. It's an $8 book. Don't ever write me asking if you should buy I Will Teach youh Be Rich. The book, it's $8. Or get it at a library. Andrew just told you. He woke up, turned on his investment account, probably at Vanguard, and it was six figures. Andrew, where's your investment account, by the way?

Well, it's through my work. It's through Fidelity.

Okay, I'll take it. I have no hate for Fidelity. They're fine. All right, Good job. Congratulations. But how do you feel about the rest of the numbers? Your income and your debt?

The debt, that part I'm not so happy about because I could have paid it off when I was still living at home with my parents. But because of things that I had to do at home, like for them, I was paying for a lot of things for them. You know, family stuff. If I didn't have to worry about paying those things off for them or whatever I was helping them pay for, I feel like I wouldn't be in this situation.

So can we. Can we talk about what happened? Why did you have to pay for your family? What. What happened?

Well, I. The. The main thing is that my dad ended up filing for bankruptcy after he stopped working. It was just my stepmom that was pretty much pulling in the. I guess being the breadwinner at that point because she's a nurse, and she was helping. Trying to help out as much as she could to pay for the mortgage and their vehicles. And then I have two younger brothers who also started college, have their vehicles. And so there wasn't enough to pay for all those things with just my stepmom's income alone. And so then whenever I got back home or whenever I graduated college and started working, I almost pretty much, like, picked up right there and like, okay, where. You know, where. Where do. Where do I need to help?

How much were you sending to them?

Oh, man, like, almost my full paycheck. And I was. And I was getting paid, or at that time, I was getting paid about, like nineteen eighteen hundred dollars every two weeks at that point. I would say, like, almost 75% of that would go to whatever they needed help paying for, whether it was like, Internet, cell phone, car payment, the mower, the lawn guy.

Why did your dad declare bankruptcy?

Because he also ran into some trouble with debt.

Like what?

From what I know, because I don't feel like I know the whole story, actually, but from what I know, there was a lot of credit card debt and I think some stuff from his past that he owed some debt collectors. I'm not 100% sure on the details, but I know There was, like, he couldn't afford making his payments.

What kind of lifestyle did your. Is your dad still alive?

He is.

Okay. Are you still in touch with him?

No, actually.

And is that because of this?

It. I don't. No, it's not actually. It's different. It's a different reason.

Okay. Did he live obviously above his income?

I would. Yeah, I would say yes.

What do you have? The cars, the house, that kind of stuff, or what else was it that.

And then just, like. I think he spent a lot on. Just, like, acquiring things, whether it's for himself or for us. Because my. You know, my. My dad's from the Philippines, and he. I mean, he grew up dirt poor. You know, he. He told me all the stories, and so he always told me that whenever he finally moved here to the States, his. His dream was to, you know, make sure that his family wouldn't go through what he went through. I could see, like. I mean, he bought me all the things that I ever, you know, toys, you know, game consoles, what have you. When I was a kid, you know, all the nice clothes, the best shoes. How do you think.

How do you think his lessons rubbed off on you? What did you take away from your dad's relationship with money?

Well, I think I mirrored his. His spending habits, if I'm being honest, because I know. I mean, I like nice stuff, too. And when I get it, you know, when I get an opportunity, I'll. You know, I'll get it from myself because it's like, oh, I. I have a job now and I can afford it. But of course, you know, there's. There's limits to that. And then now. Now I'm in this problem that I'm in.

Did. When you buy nice stuff, what are we talking about? Clothes. What else?

Yeah, clothes. And then I'm also really big into, like, health and, like, supplements and stuff like that. Oh, no.

What are you getting? What. What do you. What supplements are you taking? Just tell me.

Well, I. I take all sorts of things.

Oh, God.

I take. I take athletic greens, of course.

Would you hear some podcast ad somewhere? Come on.

Yeah, come on.

I know that's where you heard about it. Okay.

Yes, for sure. I take that. And.

And let me guess. Let me just guess. Don't use it. You got fish oil, glutamine, protein, some carnitine or whatever. I don't know how to pronounce it. Am I getting these right?

What else?

Yeah, vitamin D and zinc. Tell me.

You're pretty. You're pretty close. Yeah, I love It.

How much do you spend on this shit? Come on.

Oh, man. At least like. At least like 200, $250. Like a month?

Are you serious?

Yeah.

Look at Sarah's face right now. Sarah, what's going through your mind as you hear this right now?

Please, can I say. Can I say profanity?

Yes. We love profanity on this show.

Okay, first of all, Andrew, what the fuck?

Did you know that?

I mean, I knew that it was expensive, but holy Fuck.

Yeah. And 250 per month times 12. That's a lot of money. Sarah, what do you think that money could have been used for?

No.

For your debt? No. Buying me nice things.

Okay.

But.

Yeah, Andrew, what do you think? I mean, 250. Okay, I agree. We all have nice things we like. I'm never here to berate people about that, except, I mean, come on. Most of those things have no efficacy that's been proven whatsoever. And supplements is basically of the most bullshit industries on the planet. But okay, besides that. You like it, it seems you spend your money on it. I get a lot of comments from people who accuse me of being hypocritical on my rich life philosophy. For example, when I point out that some dude can't afford a $75,000 truck, their clever reply is ramit. Maybe that's part of their rich life. Let's get one thing straight. You can't just point at something you want and twirl around three times and chant, rich life, rich life, rich life. And then suddenly buy it with my blessing. That's not how it works. Your rich life has to be something you can afford. That's table stakes. It's like breathing oxygen. You all intuitively get this. If your high school buddy said, my rich life is buying a private jet, you'd roll your eyes because you know he can't afford it. But how come we don't apply that level of rigor to someone buying cars or clothes or trips or even the type of place they choose to live in? I want you to start critically evaluating the purchases you make, not just using my rich life lens, but also using the affordability lens. This takes more than just your feelings. It means knowing your numbers. How much are you saving each month? What's your investment rate? What's your debt payoff date? A few minutes ago, we talked about how complex this question can be of knowing how much you can afford. Well, knowing what you know now, do you think Andrew can afford a trip with Sarah? Can he afford $250 a month on supplements? What do you think? Listen, it's real question for you. Do you know how often you're supposed to see your primary care physician? How about the dentist? How about a dermatologist? A lot of us just wait to get a text from the dental hygienist to know it's time to make an appointment. But your health is important and we talk about going from defense to offense with your money. What about with your health? Why not make your life easier and Book this year's appointments today with zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. They have over a hundred thousand doctors across every specialty from mental health, dental, primary care and more. Just filter for the doctors based on your insurance, your location, even ratings and find a doctor who's a good fit for your needs. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. Instantly click through your options, book the appointment and you are good to go. If I needed to find a new doctor today, this is what I would use. Stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.comitz zocdoc.com. I know that some of us think better when we write our thoughts out. But for a lot of us, including me, I'm better when I can think out loud. If that's you, I recommend you check out Whisper Flow to save you tons of time to bring your ideas to the page. Whisper Flow turns your voice into clean final draft writing inside whatever app you're already using, email, Slack Docs, even text messages. And it works on Mac, Windows and iPhone. So instead of spending all of your time responding to messages, especially while sitting at a computer, you can hit a hotkey, speak and the text appears. It's accurate, it's fast, it's all formatted so you can get back to work. Here's what my friend said about it. Whisper is amazing because it learns the way you speak. So you can send this rambling note as a text message and you it kills all the filler words and it perfectly formats it for you. They said it's much better than using the Apple voice to text feature. The spelling is way better. If you want to buy your time back and get back to what matters, check out Whisper Flow. Try it for free at whisperflow AI Ramit. That's Whisperflow AI Ramit W, I, S, P R flow AI slash ramit or click the link in the description below. Where did the credit card debt come from?

The credit card debt? Different things. It comes from anything that I have that's automatically being, like, deducted from my credit card. Like, Internet.

Internet doesn't get you to $17,000 in credit card debt.

No, it doesn't. And then for sure, like the supplements. For sure.

Okay.

And then everyday stuff, gas. And also if, like, if we go out to eat or something and I offer to pay, then I'll also put that on the card. Yeah, that. That's pretty much it. It's.

What else? This, this doesn't add up yet. I. I want to understand it. 250 bucks a month on supplements. Okay, well, I might not spend that much. Fine. But that would take you years and years to accumulate $17,000 of credit card debt. What else?

It's just stuff that I would buy for myself. Whether it's stuff for working out, a quick gear for working out. So I also practice jiu jitsu. And so I pay for a year's worth, like, fee to. It's like $2,000.

No, that's not it either. Okay. It's kind of interesting.

It was. Yeah, it was like $6,000.

Holy fuck. And did you take out a loan for that?

Well, originally I did.

Okay, keep going.

Yeah, originally I did. And then whenever I spoke to Sarah about it, that's when we. We kind of got into an argument about that. And then that's when she offered to loan me the $6,000. And so then I could pay the loan off and then I would owe her the 6,000.

And what does this course get you?

Well, I'm trying to. I'm trying to get out of the hospital environment. I'm trying to. I'm trying to find a new avenue of work.

So will this course get you that?

Potentially, yes.

Currently, right now I'm saving close to like, 40% of my income just to put a down payment on, like, a house. At one point, I was paying most of the rent, you know, and, and, and to be fair here, that, like, there are days where I don't see Andrew as my equal because I'm the. I'm. I'm the breadwinner, I'm the provider. I make more money. At some point it's like, hey, like, you're kind of dragging me down.

Andrew, what do you think hearing that?

Oh, that. That's the part that I get triggered on. And it hurts whenever we have these conversations because that's that's usually what gets said in. In these conversations that it's like, you know, it's because of me that we can't, you know, we can't live the life that we want to live.

So this isn't the first time you've heard that?

No.

Okay. And when you hear that, what is your reaction?

I mean, I. I'm, like, crying on the inside. Like, it just. I. Because it's like, for me, it's like I, it. It. I just feel like, so unfair about the whole. How it happened, you know, before I decided to move out of the house. And like, after graduating college, like, all those. The last decade of my life, I feel like, you know, wasn't my fault.

Yeah.

And so, like, it really, like, it makes me really sad and upset at the same time because I know, like, if. If I could have just, you know, maybe I should have just left the house sooner or something and just not have worried about anything, and then I could have just taken care of myself, then maybe I wouldn't be in this situation, you know?

So how long did you live with your family?

I mean, it was probably till I was, like, 27.

Okay, so four or five years after you graduated college, and then. And you had. Between the time you left and now, it's been what, about five years?

Yeah, like, because I. I pretty much. I. I moved out of the house when I got with Sarah because the. I mean, they didn't. They didn't really take to her. I don't know. I. I don't think they really liked us being together, so.

Why is that?

Well, the biggest thing is she's not Filipino. Yeah.

So is your family very traditional?

I would. Yeah, like a hundred thousand percent, but.

I know a lot of Filipino. I have some really close Filipino friends, and they. Their family doesn't care if they're with Filipinos or not. I'm so surprised by this.

Oh, trust me, I. I am too. Like, I'm the same way. I got friends that are Filipino and they're with Vietnamese women and, you know, and so, like, just like Sarah and I, that's what. That's how we are. And, and so, like, I mean, that's just one reason. I don't. I don't know what else, but I know for sure that's it. Because ever since I started seeing her, it. It's never been the same.

I'm sorry to hear that. That's awful. I'm sorry to hear that. That's not your fault, Sarah. It's obviously not your Fault. And yeah, I wish that it weren't like that.

Okay.

What I'm more curious about is the last five years in which you've accrued all that debt. What has been going on there?

I don't, I don't like Sarah feeling like I'm the burden. And so I, I always do what I can to like, if I can buy something that we need or that, you know, if I can pay for dinner sometime or if I can, you know, pay for an experience, like, I don't know, a concert or something just so that we can like spend time together and experience life together, then I going to do that. Whether or not, like I had. Have enough money in my checking account.

What does the man in the relationship mean?

Well, the way I was raised at least. And I mean, I don't know if I believe this now, but when I was, My dad would always tell me, it's like, you know, you need to, you're responsible for the house, you have to take care of the house, you have to take care of your wife, your kids. You have to pay for, pay for everything. You know, like, you have to be responsible. Like, it's like all these hard, hard things that were drilled into me when I was a kid.

When was the first time you remember hearing this?

Probably like when I was like six, like five, first grade, second.

Really? Like, what do you remember your dad saying to you about money when you were young?

Oh, man, he. He'd always tell, he'd always tell me, number one thing. He'd always say, money doesn't grow on trees. That was what he, what he would always tell me. And then he would always tell me, don't go out there and like, be flipping hamburgers and you know, at a minimum wage job, you know, you need to, you need to be successful or else you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to pay for your. What you want in life. That always was ingrained in me.

When you think back to those two things that your dad said a lot, how do you feel?

Well, like now, now I feel like. I almost feel like it, it wasn't exactly true.

Yeah.

Because I mean, yeah, I mean, maybe money doesn't grow on trees, but then, like, for me, I feel like if, if you just, if you put in the effort and, you know, you work hard enough, you'll be able to, you'll be able to reach your goal, you know, and so that like, I, I mean, it just kind of hurts inside whenever, you know, like when I talk about it now, it's like, what am I supposed to. How am I supposed to understand that at five, six years old?

Yeah. You seemed angry when you said those two things. Like. Like, it almost seemed like an insult coming out of your mouth. Did you notice that? No, actually, that's why I asked it. It can't be easy to think about your dad giving you money lessons and then him going bankrupt and causing you to sacrifice your early 20s for his behavior. Do you ever talk to him about that?

I have, actually. What happened? It wasn't a pretty conversation, actually. That. That's, like, another reason why. Another reason why him and I don't really talk to each other anymore.

He was too proud.

If I'm being honest. I think so, yeah. I mean. I mean, he told me, like, how dare. How dare I say that to him? You know, like, how. Who. Who. You know, you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't be where you are if it wasn't for me.

The classic Asian parent guilt. We all know it well.

Yeah. And, you know, and, like, just talking about it now, like, it really. It makes me. It really hurts inside because it's like, it's. It's not. It's. It's wrong. Like, all that. The stuff he said, like, it's wrong. It really is. And, like. And then I feel like I. I realized that too late or something. And. And then, like you said, I mean, that's why I feel like I. I feel like now I have to catch up. And then, like, with Sarah, like, I. I don't want her to feel like, oh, because of him, I can't. You know, I can't move. I can't move forward either.

These childhood events create deep grooves. They're not something you can simply shrug off. One of the reasons I started this podcast was to show you how deeply our upbringing can affect us, even 30 years later. It's hard to grapple with that when you hear someone spending $250 a month on supplements when he's in debt. But as you start to hear about how Andrew grew up and what he faced even as a young adult, my hope is that you start to empathize with what he went through. That doesn't mean you have to agree with how he spends his money today. But my hope is at least we can start to understand that we all come to our financial lives with different experiences. We all come to our lives with different cultural views and invisible scripts. And if we start to internalize that and understand it, it can help us understand why people think and behave the way they do around their money. It can even help you understand yourself. What comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport. Scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure when. What's the right bulb? We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed, we gotta pull all this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend guilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gelt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With G, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing. Credits, deductions, business structure. It's handled. And their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to Gilt's full tax link library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation. And as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist. Again, that's joingelt.com ramit join G-E-L-.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task. With guilt, they can be a tool to build wealth. When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. You instead, you can use Gusto. This episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire, onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers comp 401k matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing Data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt once more, gusto.com ramit how do you feel about being now an even higher earner in the relationship?

How do I feel about being the higher earner? I mean, it's just nice to have extra money, but I just felt that with the extra income, you kind of have to delegate part of the money to help the other partner out in their situation.

Okay, so great, so you're earning more money. The way you think of it is, hey, I can use this to help Andrew out with certain things that he might want. And it doesn't seem, even though you believe that the man should earn more, even though you earn more, it doesn't seem like there is a gender issue for you. Am I reading that correctly?

No, there's not really a gender issue for me. But. But in my head, it's like, hypothetically, if we do have kids, I'm probably not going to be working as much. And so then at that point I'm like, hey, I need you to bring home the bacon just so I could focus on taking care of this human being.

Well, bring home the bacon. So currently Andrew makes 75k and you, Sarah, make 85k. Is that correct?

Yes.

So if and when you have children, what's your expectation? Actually, have you two talked about this expectation if you have kids?

No.

Whoa, this is interesting. You just said no. And Andrew's nodding yes. Oh, I love this.

It was more so the fact about, like, having kids, not so much. Yeah.

So am I correct in assuming that you have discussed one day potentially having kids?

Yes.

Okay, fine. So let's say you have kids and Sarah, you have the child.

I would probably be working a reduced workload. Okay, so then, like, they'll just cut my paycheck.

Got it. Okay, so, so best case, you would take some time off and then go back to a reduced workload, whether that be remote or in the office or whatever, but your pay would be cut. Okay. And so since you're the higher earner, a larger proportion of the household income would be cut. Would you be able to make it if you dropped like 40k or 50k from your paycheck?

I mean, assuming that we don't have any really big debts and whatnot, we could. Especially since I've aggressively saved, like, I think that, like, I have like over a year's worth of savings.

Notice that we've gone on this long in the conversation without talking about specific numbers. That is on purpose. Too many people jump right into the numbers. I'm talking about financial advisors, and I'm talking about you. You sit down to have your first conversation about money, and you nerds Open up your 34 sheet financial model with a P and L. Nobody wants to see that shit. I know, I know. Cell C45 never talked back to you. It's so logical. The formula is exquisite. The problem is, nobody cares. If you want to get on the same financial page, you have to start where people do care. That's why I always ask people about a specific money situation they remember and about their rich lives and how they grew up. And then maybe we'll talk about the numbers. Now, when you get to the numbers, it helps to have a way to talk about them. And the way to do that is to use a conscious spending plan. This can give you structure on where your money is currently going and where you want it to go. You can download your own copy of my conscious spending plan@iwt.com episode 45. That's iwt.com episode 45. How can you have read my book and you haven't, like, run. Created your conscious spending plan? I'm curious. I'm not judging. I'm just curious, because, you know, in some ways, you're pretty savvy. I'm looking at how much you have in investments. Six figures by age 32. That's great. But at the same time, you're sitting here saying, I just don't know how to sort these numbers out.

I feel like when I sit there and I look at it all by myself, it makes sense in my head.

Mm.

But then I think it's just whenever it. Whenever it comes up in conversation, I tend to, like, that's when my mind starts to start spinning, and it's kind of like. I don't know. It's almost like, okay, well, I had this plan, but then now my plan is not there anymore because I get. I. I feel like. I get, like. I get, like, choked up, or I get, like. I don't know if it's, like, a nervous or, like, an anxious feeling that I start to feel whenever it's like. Like, for example, if it's Sarah and she's. We're talking about finances, like, I. I just. I almost, like, in the back of my head, I kind of feel like. I feel like my dad's standing right here.

What Is he saying to you, like, all these.

All the stuff that he told me when I was a kid, all the. All those things about, like, money doesn't grow on trees and, like, you know, like, you need. You need to be able to take care of your family. You can't take care of your family if you're working at McDonald's. Like. Like, it's like. Yeah. I just feel like there's, like, a presence of him looming over as. As. Like we're having this conversation. Like Sarah and I would be talking.

Do you want to keep him here or do you want to get rid of him?

A hundred percent. Get rid of him.

Okay, let's do it. I can help you do it. You want to?

Yes, please. Absolutely.

Do you believe that it's possible?

Yeah.

Okay, good. You said yeah with a question mark at the end, but I'll take it. Okay, let's do it. Let's start with this, because I am confident you can get to the numbers part of it. And candidly, I'm looking at your numbers and you know there's a way out. I could tell you right now, I looked at your numbers. It took me five seconds. I said, there's a light at the end of the tunnel here, but you don't yet see it. Do you know why?

No.

Because your vision is clouded by your dad. Because you're looking at these same numbers I'm looking at. But you have a set of lenses on that are smudged and blurry with your dad's fingerprints all over them. So what do you say we take those lenses off, put on a new, clear pair of lenses? Okay. All right, let's do it together. On one shoulder, you have your dad. He's whispering in your ear. He's saying, money doesn't grow on trees. Andrew, don't work at McDonald's. Even though you make $75,000 a year, you are not working at McDonald's. What he says still gets you, doesn't it?

Yeah.

Okay, well, you know your dad's name. Usually I name these characters. We don't have to put your dad's name out here, but just think of that character chattering on your shoulder in your ear. That's your dad. Now, I want you to replace on the other shoulder, a new character who is somebody you look up to. It could be a real life person. It could be a family member, college friend, even a character from tv. Whatever. Can you think of somebody who you really admire when it comes to money?

Yeah. Okay.

This is somebody who makes you feel good. About yourself, somebody who shows you it's possible to be even better than you are today. And they know that sometimes you're going to fall. That's okay. But they just gently guide you, pick you back up, point you in the right direction. Who gives you good advice about money?

Actually, Sarah does.

Okay. Sarah. Wait, this is interesting. Is Sarah. Well, we. We can't have Sarah on your shoulder. That's too weird. You know, you.

You.

You're dating Sarah. Sarah can also be whispering in your ear. It's too much. Too much.

Sarah.

But just for the sake of curiosity, what would Sarah tell you about money?

I mean, she. She would definitely tell me, like, if I.

If.

If I don't need it, I shouldn't buy it.

Okay. It's good advice. What else?

She would also tell me not to get her anything. Don't get her anything extravagant because it's. Or. Or else she'll kill me. Like, I. I don't think she wants me spending a lot of money.

I love a good homicide threat on this podcast. It's good. Okay. And have you bought her anything expensive.

Other than like, a trip. Trip to. A trip to Vegas, like, earlier when we were. When we started dating? That's probably, like, the most expensive thing, but.

Okay. So if Sarah's giving you good financial advice, how come you're not taking it?

I. I feel like. I think I still. I feel. Again, I think I feel like it's my dad talking to me.

Yeah. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do something I don't usually do. I'm gonna do two things I don't usually do. The first is to be more directive. Okay, I'm gonna. Usually, I like you to come to the answer, but it feels like you're struggling with this person on your shoulder, and that's why I'm gonna do the second thing I usually don't do, which is I'm gonna be the person on your other shoulder. I almost never get this directive on the podcast, certainly not with naming the person on your shoulder. That's because it's actually an important part of my process that people put skin in the game. But Andrew is really struggling here, and I don't think he's doing the regular old innocent dough routine. I suspect part of the reason why he's stuck here is that his confidence is just totally shattered, so I'm going to lend him a helping hand for now. There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent and I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where BILT comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month and you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible so you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, BILT recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026. So stay tuned. Join the loyalty program for renters at joinbuilt.com ramit that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you. Here's a DM I got from one of my listeners about this episode's sponsor, Element I love it. After my sauna cold plunge sessions I do two rounds of sauna then cold plunge. I love drinking Element after my sessions. Another person said. Sometimes I use it the morning after I've had a few too many drinks. I appreciate the feedback. If you like to sweat it out in the sauna or you need to feel a little better after a night out, Element can be a great way to replace your electrolytes. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte mix that comes in easy to use packets in great flavors like citrus, salt and watermelon. When you're sweating like you're at the gym or hiking or just in the heat, you're losing more than water. Element helps you stay sharp, avoid cramps and feel better. It's used by Navy Seals, Olympic athletes and pro sports teams. And now what started as a seasonal drop Lemonade salt is officially a favorite. It's perfect with iced tea. For a salty Arnold Palmer, get a free 8 count sample pack of Elements Most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase@drinklmnt.com that's drinklmnt.com Ramit find your favorite Element flavor or share with a friend and you can Try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back. No questions asked. Okay? You seem to struggle with getting some good financial advice. Gee, if only there was somebody here who could share a couple of little tidbits to help you with your finances. I wonder who that person could be. Well, here I am. Okay? Fate has brought us together and therefore I must deliver. All right, listen. Listen to what I'm going to say now. This what's going to happen? Okay. Your dad's on one shoulder now. You have this bushy browed Indian dude with really hairy arms on the other, okay? He's wearing a nice cashmere sweater. And anytime you face a financial situation, you have this little gremlin sized Indian guy on your other shoulder, okay? It's great. Nobody ever walked around with a little doll gremlin like this. Now you do. So what does he I tell you about your finances?

He tells me that I need to have systems in place.

Okay, good. What else? I love this guy. What else?

You gotta have a plan and like, know your, like, know your numbers.

Fucking love this guy. Keep going, keep going. This is music to my ears.

And then like, and then, I mean, make sure understand compound interest.

Okay, very good. What does he say about debt? About your debt?

I know that like there's like the debt. Pay your debts off with the like follow like. Well, the debt snowball. That's probably the biggest thing.

Okay, good.

That I can think of.

What does he say about spending $6,000 on some course when you have a ton of debt.

Pay your debt off first.

Yeah. And what does he say about your debt and your relationship?

Well, I know there. I know there's a part like you have to communicate with your partner.

Do you think, does he think you can do it?

Yes.

Yeah. Is he confident in you?

Yes.

Does he think that you can do it today and you can begin and not have to wait 10 years from now?

Yes.

Does he think you're strong enough to do this even though your dad is on your other shoulder?

Yes.

And does he think that Sarah can be a good partner to you? Not an adversary, but a partner?

Yes.

You're right. I think all those things. What are you thinking, hearing this?

I mean, it just makes me feel like a little bit emotional, honestly.

Why?

Well, because, I mean, I never got told like, you know, I feel like nobody ever believed in me when I was a kid. And so it's just. I guess it's just nice to hear.

I believe in you. I believe in you, Sarah. Do you believe In Andrew?

Yeah, 100%.

Andrew, I believe in you. I don't think you need to wait for some magical day. I think you already dream big. I think you work hard. You did it. It's quite impressive. You saved a hundred thousand thousand dollars in your investments, even though you were taking care of your family in your early 20s. I can see you're emotional right now. Can you share why?

Because I like, all I ever wanted was I just didn't want to end up like. I didn't want to end up like my parents or like my dad. And so, like, I just want to, you know, like, I want to live my life to where I don't have to worry about any of that. And it's just. I guess I just. It just. It was hurt. It hurts. And I. I don't really know how else to explain it, but I just. I just felt like, you know, nobody. It's like I was doing amount to nothing and just. It just was just nice to hear, like, okay, I do got this. And it's like, you know, my dad was wrong.

Yeah. That's when you become a true adult, when you can see your parents for who they were, trying their very best. And you can, with some perspective, assess, take the best of what they taught you and then create your own path forward. Okay. You have a great relationship with Sarah. The two of you have been together. Financially speaking, when you combine your incomes, you do quite well. But there's just this ghost in the relationship that just floats above everything. Who do you think that ghost is, Andrew?

My dad?

Yeah. And he's not the ghost we want to admire. He went bankrupt. So if we're going to have a ghost in the relationship, why don't we just pick a better ghost? And for whatever reason, this ghost is now me. At least for now. You could change whoever you want. But what I wanted to show you there, Andrew, is that you can choose who you put on your other shoulder. You can choose whose advice you take. You don't have to only listen to the things that were drilled into you from age six. Okay, so what do you say we actually go ahead and talk about a plan? The reason that I spent so much time talking to you about your dad and trying to understand Sarah's perspective here is that mathematically, this is quite simple. You know, it's not that hard, but I knew there's got to be something else going on here for you both to have applied to come on this show. Because with your income, it's kind of like, let's Just solve this. Let's knock this out of the park and move on. But a rich life isn't just about math. It's about so much more than that. I think today we're really getting into some of that. Okay, well, here's what I would do in that situation. Number one, I would take everything I had and focus it on getting that credit card debt paid off. Cannot pay the minimums anymore. Okay. I would write it down. You can go to debt payoff calculator, Google that, and you will be able to calculate if I pay an extra $100 a month, how much faster will this thing be paid off? In your case, it will be paid off years sooner years by just an extra 100 or 200amonth. Okay. Because your credit card interest rate is so much higher than your student loans. In my situation, I would also take whatever money beyond the minimum for my student loans, and I would focus it directly at the credit card. That's me, right? That's up to you how you want to do it. But you will be able to calculate that with the debt payoff calculator. But I can tell you right now, you have a lot of money that is unaccounted for. If you make $75,000 a year, where's all this money? It's not like supplements, 250amonth.

Up until recently, I was paying a car payment.

What kind of car?

Acura TLX.

How much is that car?

It was like 37 at the time.

And now you're paid off?

Yes, from February after or beginning of February, I paid my last payment.

How long are you going to keep that car?

I mean, right now I don't plan on getting a new vehicle.

Good answer. You better keep that car for the next 10 years. Don't even dream of getting a new car for the next few years. Okay, good. You paid it off. Happy to hear it. Great. What are you doing with the payments you used to make towards the car? Where's that money going?

Well, now, so like this, this month, like March, and then April was like the first month where I had extra money from the. From the car payment. And then the other thing that I also paid off was a consolidated loan that I had from like maybe four or five years ago. Now that I paid that off, and that was like another $1,000 a month that was being paid to as well. So this, all this, this, this payoff of this loan, and then my car all happened like around January, February. So it's only recently that I'm able To that I have, like, this extra money now that can go towards something.

Well, yeah, I get that. So how come you don't sound happy at all? I think you sound like you listen to a 90s emo song all day long in the rain, and you're just like, looking out the window with, like, an old tattered book in your hand, listening to some Sarah McLaughlin or something, and just like one solitary tear rolling down your eye. What are you talking about? Dude, you have like, thousands of dollars a month. What's going on here?

What I feel at least is like, I feel like now that I have this extra. Now these extra dollars in my checking account, I almost kind of feel like I want to keep it. Like, you know, keep it to myself or something.

Like, what does that mean? Keep it to yourself so that it goes to athletic greens where keep it to yourself means what I mean, really.

For me, it makes me feel more secure.

Okay, I understand that. So let's keep some of it and let's pay down that debt so you can get out from under this weight. How about that?

Yes.

How much was your car payment?

It was like four or $7,200,000 a month.

And you had a consolidated loan payment of $1,000 a month. Okay, where's the rest of the money going? You had a thousand in rent, 1000 in loans, 472 in car payments. What else guys eat out ever?

Yeah.

How much is that?

It can be between like 50, 50 to 100. It's pretty typical.

That's like, what do you guys eat for that much in an entire month? How many meals is that?

Probably like just a few.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, fine.

It feels like you're missing, like, thousands of dollars right now. Maybe about a thousand, fifteen hundred bucks. We're missing. I'm guessing some of that's your student loan payment. Basically what I'm telling you is you don't know your numbers. Without being competent, it's impossible to be confident. Okay. You have a lot of money you can use to redirect towards your debt. You told me it feels hopeless. You feel like you're behind. But do you know I wanted to point this out to both of you. Do you know I've spoken to couples who have $800,000 of debt, and they didn't even sound as down as the two of you. What does that tell you?

That's, It's. It's more about, like, how you, you know, how you feel about the situation.

Yes. Yes. In other words, your feelings about money are highly uncorrelated with the amount you have in the bank. Andrew, what that means is you could pay off your debt tomorrow and you would still feel bad about money. I don't say that to make you worry. I say that to tell you I want you to get aggressive about paying off this debt. It's not doing anything for you. You don't even know what you spent the $17,000 in credit card debt. You can't even name anything. Let's just get rid of it. But also, you have to simultaneously work on your money psychology. You can do both, but they are two parallel tracks and of course one will help the other. Right now, we're working on the plan. So $1,000 in rent. Great. Don't change a thing. I love that you two have managed to this rent, which is low and it's just great. Awesome. Car payment done. I wouldn't have advised you to get that car, but you paid it off. It's a car that's going to run for a long time. Fantastic. So you take this extra 1500 bucks a month and what do you do with it, Andrew?

Take care of the credit card.

Yeah. How fast do you think that credit card debt will go away?

Maybe less than a year.

Correct. Exactly. Now you can now choose. Hey, you say Ramit. You know, I like to have a little bit of this money in my savings account. It makes me feel better. That's totally fine. Life isn't just about the mathematically optimized answer. So you might say, Instead of paying 1,500 bucks a month, I'm going to take 200 bucks a month and keep it in my savings account. But I'll take the rest of it and I'll put it towards my credit card. I would love that. I love when people develop their own point of view about money. That's up to you. That's like you choosing how much salt you want to put on some dish. Totally love it. That's up to you. But I think what's important is that you choose your path. You automate it so that the credit card is automatically being sent money and that you and Sarah talk about that plan. When you talk to Sarah about money, I want you to come to her with a proposal. What you just said to her was a bunch of worries. We got to reshift. The way you talk about money, you coming up with a bunch of problems is not the way to talk about money. I need you to come with a proposal. Sarah can accept it or reject it, but it shows that you are taking the initiative when you come with a proposal. So try that again.

So. What I propose that we do is that I will take the money that I have left over from the after all of my checking expenses get deducted, I'll take that money and pay it straight to the credit card. And then I will hold off. I will hold off paying you the monthly grocery expenses and things like that until after the credit card is paid off. Is that a plan? That sounds manageable to you?

Yeah, that sounds manageable.

So far, we've heard Sarah's frustrations. We've also heard that Andrew's spending habits are deeply shaped by his experience growing up, especially with his dad. I think Andrew's learning. It seems like he's having some breakthroughs today. But there's something that's been bothering me. Neither of them are really putting skin in the game. They've signed up to come on this podcast. They send me all their financial details. They've opened up about a lot, but they're still not actually asking for help. And this is what's driving me crazy. If they're not asking for help, they're not really putting skin in the game. They're just replaying their old arguments again. And they are not putting themselves in the position to receive help. And you know what that does? That puts me in the uncomfortable position of just blabbing on and on to two people who don't really want to hear it. So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to call out the elephant in the room. I want them to understand what they're actually doing and not doing. I'm going to wait until the two of you ask for help or we're going to all end up dead. On this call from silence. I will watch my hair turn white before I volunteer to help you because the two of you are not asking at all. Have you noticed that?

What do you think we should do? What do you suggest, finally we should do?

I love Andrew's example of taking both of your loves of experiences and baking that in. It could be a date night, could be a brunch. It could be you both love going for a road trip or a drive somewhere. It could be you two planning on when you're both going to have a million dollars and you're 0.7% closer to. Could be the two of you going through my rich life process and discussing when are you going to get married and putting aside $10 or $50 a month. You could go through my wealth triggers program together and talk about Money psychology and where you want to spend money once the debt is paid off. There are so many things you can do to make money fun. Oh, my God. I'm having fun looking at your finances right now. Because when I saw your application and I saw your numbers, I go, why are they so down? Like, we could knock this debt out pretty fast. It's not that big. And now that I talk to you, I understand why. It has very little to do with the numbers. These numbers are incredibly manageable. You two don't know how to have fun with money. You don't have a vision of something awesome that's in your rich life. There's no joy. And it makes me sad because I want joy. With the amount of money you earn and the amount of investments you have, it would be a tragedy if you can't find a way to use money to feel joy, to use money to be generous, to use money to live these amazing experiences. That's why I wanted to talk to you and that's why I have kept pushing you both on this call.

Now, the. I mean, I'm able to distinguish the whole thing with, like, my dad and everything and understanding how that affects me and then. And the relationship as well. I think moving forward, I'll be able to catch myself in those moments when I'm talking to Sarah and be able to have a better understanding of not just, like, how I'm. How I'm showing up into this conversation, but then also understanding where she's coming from as well. My intentions are, I mean, is to knock this dead out and, you know, be able to live those, Live the experience. Like, I don't want. I don't want to waste the time. So I'm all about making this as smooth of. As a process as I can.

Sarah, how do you feel about that?

Yeah, we are in it together. This problem affects both of us. So it takes two to be a team and just have to support each other. And then, like, you know, I'll always be there to support him. Even if he somehow gets off track, I'll always be there to support him. We'll figure out a plan and we'll get back on track.

What about when he pays off his debt and he has mastered the ability to talk about money?

What about then once he pays off his debt, he's going to buy me a ring? You know, I hope that we will continue to have these healthy financial discussions and then figure out what we could do jointly as a couple, whether it'll be, you know, a wedding or, like, a house or us going on a random trip?

Like, would that be fun to talk about?

Yeah.

Then why don't you start talking about it today? You don't have to wait. That's my point. A rich life is lived today and tomorrow. That's the way to make your conversations fun. You don't need a cupcake and you don't need a clown car. What you need is to talk about the things that are important to the two of you. Talk about them, discuss them, make a plan, put a little bit of money towards it. Even $20. That's the beginning of a rich life. I received an email from Andrew. After we talked, he took my advice. He filled out a conscious spending plan to help him pay off his debt. If you'd like to get a copy of that conscious spending plan, go to iwt.com episode45 and enter your email address. Here's a little excerpt of what Andrew said. Ramit what surprised me the most is quote I didn't realize how much much my dad's influence still stuck with me. I've actually had therapy before because of my toxic relationship with my family and this isn't the first time my dad has come up in conversations like we had. Andrew has a lot to work on and Andrew and Sarah have a lot to work on together. He has put together a plan where he will pay $1,472 towards his debt every single month and still have money left over for guilt free spending. If you want to put together your own conscious spending plan, go to iwt.com episode45 thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the ship show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach you to be Rich my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.