48. “My husband needs a better job, but he hates the idea of earning more”

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Gave up and stopped believing in himself. I have to be the one to always dream and keep that going.

I am on board with trying to make Kara happy as much as I possibly can and admittedly there are some times where I can probably take turns being leaders on certain decisions. But a lot of people I ran into used money as a weapon and I didn't love that.

I'm a nurse and I work full time. I feel like I'm at the point where I am making the most money and then it's just a really difficult profession so I don't burn out. I want to like cut back in hours and usually people's partners like will continue to rise and then they have like a plan. And so I guess it would be nice if I could drop a little bit and have some pressure taken off and have him kind of try and plan to move up or make changes. But I feel like he's kind of stuck unless he makes a career change or I don't know, I get frustrated. That's a lot of pressure on me. Like for the rest of our marriage I've Tried to tell you that. I don't know.

Kara and Sean make $150,000 together. She makes $100,000 and he makes 50,000. They've been married for five years. They're new parents and they are frustrated with money. Well, Kara is. She's frustrated that Sean has been stuck at a job for the past five years with no path to a promotion. And when I asked Sean about it, he just sounds apathetic. He's passive and he doesn't take ownership of his career. In fact, when Cara tries to talk to him about it, he avoids it. Honestly, this was a frustrating episode for me. I don't mind people who were in financial trouble and I know that very few of us learned this stuff as we were growing up. But the one thing I can't take is being passive with your life. And if you come on my show to talk to me, I expect you to have questions. I expect you to take ownership. So today at one point, I actually lost it with both of them. I really want to help Kara and Sean, but I can't do it for them. I want you to listen in to hear what happens. And of course, there will be a follow up at the end, by the way, when we start talking about their numbers, you're going to hear where their income is going. Before they came on the show, I had them fill out a conscious spending plan. You can get a copy of that conscious spending plan to fill out yourself@iwt.com Episode 4 8. I'm Ramit Sethi and this is I Will Teach youh to Be Rich.

Kara, what is a time in the last month or two where you did not feel on the same financial pages, Sean?

This week, actually. So we just bought a house in March and we finally moved all our stuff over and we have a little bit of extra space and it's our front entry room is like probably the best part of the house. The rest of the house is need some work. So I want to make it look really nice. And I don't expect to go to like West Elm and buy a brand new couch, but what I will do is look on Facebook Marketplace. And so I found one that is in good condition that will look perfect in our living room. It usually retails for fourteen hundred dollars. And so I talked that person down to seven hundred and Sean was kind of like, wow, like that's a lot of money for a couch.

All right. Sean, when you heard Kara suggesting getting a $700 couch, what was the first thing you said to her?

Probably like do we need that right this minute? I think the biggest difference between us is not that we both agree we want a couch for Kara. The excitement is all of the detail that she just gave you about the couch, about how much she saved, about how it's a bargain, about how she thinks it'll save us money in the long term. And I'm on board for all of that. I just hear, oh, it's $700. And we still have several other, in my opinion, more important things to pay for at this exact moment.

How do you both usually make a decision like this? What's the pattern that emerges?

Usually I'm the one who finds it and then I pitch it to him and Sean usually actually kind of goes with it. I'm mostly the one doing the research and whatnot.

If we had to name these two characters, what would you name them?

Chara's the spender, the one who, I don't know, is more high maintenance and wants nicer things. And Sean's the laid back guy who can like roll with anything but, well, I don't know.

Okay, interesting choice of words. Sean, what would you say if you're going to name the two characters involved?

Kara is definitely the one that wants to spend. Yeah.

Okay.

Kara's the spender.

And what are you?

The saver, I guess, or the skip, the skimpy one you don't really save though. Fair.

What does he do?

Status quo, I guess is more meaning.

He just like, I don't know, your check pretty much goes to like our mortgage and you buy like coffee and beer and that's about it. And then I kind of figure out the rest of it.

Okay, okay, hold on a second. We're going to get to that, but I want to stick to this. So if Kara's the spender, then what are you? I don't know.

I'm not the final decision. I'm the safety valve, I guess. Mostly we're going to agree mostly her ideas are good, but every once in a while there's one that we don't need to pursue.

So have you ever thought about the roles that you and your partner play when it comes to money decisions? I hear this phrase a lot. For example, I make day to day money decisions, but my husband makes the big decisions. Or I'm the spender, she's the saver. Or we're both just pretty laid back. By the way, when people say this, they never actually are. Each of these has its own issues. For example, if one person makes the big money decisions, what happens when that person dies, will the other partner know how to handle the complexity of money? And I want you to think about this. What roles in your relationship did you just passively accept? Which roles mirror the roles your parents played? And even what would it look like if you reversed those roles? Have this discussion with your partner, and when you do, here's a suggestion. Name the roles. Maybe you are the spender, the saver, the cautionary person, the worrier. Whatever it is, name that. Be vivid. And then ask yourself, if we could change those roles, what would they be?

Did you guys get that couch?

I'm still messaging with the girl.

Okay, so that's a no. So can I. Can I just play this out again? All right, See if this. See if this sounds right. Kara comes up. She's like, we should get this thing. And it has all these cool features. I want US to spend $700. Kara is the spender, as you put it. Do we agree? Yes. And then Sean's reaction is, I don't know about that. What about the plumbing? How would you describe that? Bummer. Yes.

Keep going.

Practical.

I don't know.

Don't give yourself undue credit. That's not being practical.

Fair enough.

Listen to my tone. I don't know. You didn't offer an alternative, did you? You didn't say, well, you know what? That's an interesting couch, but I really think that I'm going to look into three other couches and find something at 50% off of that price. You didn't do that, did you?

Definitely not, no.

Yeah. So you're not practical, and it's not that. What is it? Kara, feel free to chime in here.

He's indecisive.

I think it's just a wet blanket, you know? You guys know what that is?

Oh, yeah.

Just sort of some Eeyore type shit, you know? I don't know. I haven't watched that Eeyore stuff in a long time, but I imagine that's the sound Eeyore makes. I don't mind if you disagree on the couch. I don't mind that at all. We haven't even looked at your numbers to see if you can afford it.

Notice how patterns that appear in money also appear in other parts of relationships. I've noticed that a lot of people try to compartmentalize their feelings about money by saying, oh, well, that's just my finances. I just feel nervous around my finances. But the way you treat money often seeps into other areas of your life. And this is why changing the way you Treat money can be really hard because it often cuts to the very core of who you are and how you look at the world.

Kara, go ahead. Looks like you just had an idea.

I feel like I'm the leader, the one who creates the dreams and then he kind of just goes with it and has no input and so describe.

That in a word.

Like careless.

Careless. Okay.

What does that mean for you or for me?

Like, I don't know. Like, you don't. It doesn't really matter to you? I don't know.

Is that fair that I.

That nothing matters to me? No. No, that's not fair.

What would you say instead? If she's the leader, what would you describe yourself as?

I'm definitely more of a one day to one week at a time kind of person. Just manage like one week's worth of routine or challenges at a time. Happy go. Lucky is probably too generous, but content to, you know, live out one week at a time. And if there are dreams that Kara has, let's see if we can make them happen. As long as they make sense with everything else we got going on. But I am definitely, I am not good at long term things. That is a growth area for me, trying to get better at long term planning, which is something we talk about whether it's finances or anything else.

Okay, that's perceptive. Okay. Do you know why I just spent so much time on this?

Why?

Because it's not about the couch. I bet you we could come up with five other examples where this exact same dynamic played out.

I think that's fair for some of our further in the past interactions. I think the recent vacation trip we took that you planned, I was excited for that. You found great deals. We jumped all over it. We made it happen. That was still definitely you leading, but it was less wet. Blankety.

Yeah, But I still. I don't think it would have happened if I didn't do it. That's the thing. I was the one who pitched it. We're so connected on those trips. And then we come home and you go back to work and you kind of get in the zone and I feel like our relationship kind of goes off to the side. I have to be the one to always dream and keep that going. And I guess that's a lot of pressure on me for the rest of our marriage. So. So it would be nice, like, I don't know if you thought those thoughts and dreams, like, for our family, it would make me feel, like, desired and, I don't know, special. I've Tried to tell you that. I was actually kind of frustrated today. We were supposed to go to a wedding for my friend. She's unfortunately sick. It has to be canceled. We had a babysitter and everything lined up. So Sean calls me and is like, oh, do you, like, wanna go on a date? And inside I'm like, oh, my gosh, he's doing it. He's planning something for us. And he's like, I wanna go see Dr. Strange too. And I was like, okay, that's definitely more of a him thing. But I like Marvel too. But he's like, well, then we can make it home for bedtime. And inside, I got really upset. That's all for him. We're not even connecting when we go to the movie. And, like, I'm really easy to please. I feel like I get. I, like, love most restaurants and stuff, so I feel like it wasn't. It's not that hard to, like, you know, step up.

It must be frustrating.

Yeah, I'm having a little fun with them, but what I'm really trying to do is shake them out of their patterns. They've never even named their roles. They've never even thought about them, actually. And when they do, you notice that they come up with the same predictable answers that almost everybody else does. I'm practical. No, actually, you're not practical. If you were practical, you wouldn't be talking to me. So what I'm doing here is I'm intentionally painting an exaggerating picture with this idea of Eeyore and his weird dying sound all so that it sticks in their head. And hopefully it's going to get them, especially Sean, thinking.

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In the description below.

I am. On board with trying to make Kara happy as much as I possibly can. And admittedly, there are some times where I can probably step into more of.

A.

You know, take turns being leaders on certain decisions.

But why here? I mean, why not a couple's therapist? Why not a group coaching? Why this? We're talking about money. The name of the podcast is I will teach you to be rich. Why this?

We're trying to do a lot better with our investments, with setting our daughter up for future success. Once we had a kid, I think that changed both of our perspectives a lot. On it's not just, you know, can we have fun this month? Can we stop renting a house? Can we buy a house instead? And now it's okay? Well, we need to make sure we can send her to college if at all possible. If that's what she wants to do. If you know.

How old is your daughter?

10 months.

Did you catch that?

That deep, invisible script? We had a kid, so now we have to start thinking about buying a house and paying for her college and. And not having fun anymore. No wonder people hate money. It just sounds like such a downer.

You've really helped me, like, identify, like, what my rich life would be. And I tried to have these conversations with Sean, and I asked him, and he couldn't come up with anything other than, like, oh, well, I really like what I do for my job. But I was like, but it. Your rich life, you're not with your family a lot. I'm like, what is. What's going on?

Okay. And I can see that you're wiping away tears.

Yeah.

Did you expect this call to be that emotional?

No, it's okay.

That it is okay.

It's totally normal.

Okay.

Here's what I think is going on so far. Kara is well versed in the philosophy of I will teach you to be rich. She uses phrases like rich life. And she's the one, of course, who asked to come on this podcast. I think she realizes that money is just a symptom of larger problems. So as they're talking about that frustrating date night, it seems like she realizes the enormity of the challenge they're facing. It's not really a simple budget change that they need here. What's interesting to me is that people really cling to the idea of numbers. People hate numbers, and they usually don't know their numbers. But funny enough, they believe the magical solution to their financial problems is found somewhere in the numbers. If somebody like me would just show them how to calculate things. Right. I'm going to start with their finances now. But you and I both know the answer probably isn't in the numbers. It's in the two of them.

What is your household income combined?

About 150,000.

Okay. Yeah.

Around there.

And how do you feel about the money that you make?

Pretty good. I know it's not. I mean, in this market, we're probably pretty average, but we. I don't know.

So you feel pretty good. Okay. You don't worry about money?

I do, actually. I get frustrated. I'm a nurse, and I work full time. I feel like I'm at the point where I am making the most money, and then it's just a really difficult profession. So I don't burn out. I want to, like, cut back on hours. And usually normally people's partners, like, will continue to rise, and then they have, like, a plan. And so I guess it would be nice if I could drop a little bit and have some pressure taken off and, like, have him kind of try and plan to move up or make changes. But I feel like he's kind of stuck unless he makes a career change.

Or, I don't know, what's the breakdown in incomes. Out of 150, who makes what?

I make about $100,000 and he makes.

A little over 50.

Okay, great. Sean, how do you feel about your financial situation.

Now that we have a mortgage kicking in and a little less comfortable. But for the most part, it's never bothered me that Kara was, you know, a bigger earner than I was. I don't get any sort of masculine pride out of that or not with my particular role, you know, eight, nine years that I've been doing it, I am getting to a kind of a burnout point as well, kind of like Kara's described. And so I have quietly applied for other positions pretty much annually, sometimes semi annually, depending on what comes up. And I just haven't gotten anything else. So those are all applications to similar roles, so just different in different places that would pay a little bit more. So she's right. Short of a total career shift, unless some of those jobs start calling me back, I don't have a huge potential for, like, salary increase. So kind of butting up against a glass ceiling and that is kind of. Actually, I guess what I thought we might talk about a little bit today is just like, okay, well, Meat's going to tell me I need to change jobs and get my shit together and move on.

But if I told you that, would it actually mean anything to you?

I think so, yeah. Because, I mean, it means something to me when Kara says it, too. Like, I have been looking for new roles. I have applied to larger companies for similar positions, which, I mean, even if it's a lateral move, it's still more salary.

Carrie, you just rolled your eyes.

I'm the one who's looking at for these jobs for him, which makes me sound like a crazy person, like a crazy wife. But, like, I'm just so desperate to, like, kind of, like, know that there's something more, like, waiting for us and that I can finally, like, relax and, like, I don't know.

Sean, Sean, you were shaking your head.

Now, I don't agree with that totally.

I.

She has been great about being proactive and sharing things that she finds on little Glass Door, you know, recommendations or whatever, but I have my own alerts set up, and I apply for those too. It's just, I think, probably time for me to decide whether I want to commit to shifting careers entirely or, you know.

Yeah, but I feel like I have to be the force to do it.

Because if you don't, then what happens?

We're stagnant. We're stuck. Like, there's no moving upward. He was making, like, the federal minimum, but he was working, like, 60 hours for, like, the small university. And I. They didn't even give him a 401K. And I, you know, we were like, 24, 25. And I was like, babe, like, that's kind of important. He's like, well, but my boss says that we can go to his, like, cabin in Big Bear. And I'm like.

Okay, let's Talk about that 401k cabin example. I can understand the frustration of Kara. She goes, hey, like, that's kind of important. He responds with the cabin example, which is really code for, I don't want to think about that right now. Because deep down I know you're probably right. And it makes me feel embarrassed not to know this now. The wrong way to handle this is to point a finger and say, hey, a 401k is really important.

Seriously.

I find that if you have to say the word seriously, you've already lost. And this is where a rich life vision can be very helpful. Instead of starting by talking about what the other person should do, you start by designing a vision of your rich lives together. You get crystal clear on it. You get excited about it. Then, and only then do you start using the puzzle pieces of your money to match up with your rich life vision. Years later, you can look back and laugh about that 401k conversation, and you can smile about the conversations you had that were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And you'll never have to fight over a $700 couch again. This is the crux of how you use money to create a rich life. I'll be talking more about this in my upcoming programs, so be sure that you're following me on social media and my newsletter. Now back to Sean. I wanted to know where his apathy of money comes from. He tells me that he grew up poor in the rural Midwest, and then he moved to Southern California at the age of 10.

What things surprised you about money culture in Southern California versus the Midwest?

It's a lot more talked about. It's way more in your face. It's a status symbol.

Like what?

Well, I mean, like, growing up for my first Decade and a half, like, it didn't really matter, like, as long as you're happy and content with what you got, like, no one's really comparing too much, but you get to SoCal at that time. Maybe it's just the kids, maybe it's. Maybe it is a coastal elitism thing.

I don't know.

But I guess at the time, I did not see a way to catch up. And rather than feel sad or depressed about that, I just decided, you know, I'm not going to be disappointed, but I also going to just lower my expectations for now.

Thank you for that. Another way that I would look at it is I knew that I was never going to be able to catch up, so I opted out of the game altogether.

Yes.

Would that be fair? Yeah.

Okay.

Kara, what do you think about this?

Yeah, I feel like he just kind of gave up and stopped believing in himself. He thought things of his himself less than other people.

In social psychology, there's a concept called cognitive dissonance. If you hold two different ideas, like, I'm a hard worker, but I can't ever catch up to these rich Southern California kids, you have to find a way to reduce the dissonance. You could double down and work hard, studying harder to get into college with the belief that your hard work will eventually enable you to make more. Or you could opt out of the game altogether and say, I can never catch up and I don't want to play that game anyway. To make that easier to swallow, you could add on a nice cherry on top, saying something like, those people who drive nice cars are actually deeply unhappy inside anyway. Once Sean realized he would never be able to catch up to the Southern California kids with their fancy cars and designer clothes, he decided to just opt out of the game altogether and instead he focused on sports. It's not surprising then, what he chose to do for a living later in life. Listen as he describes the field of work that he chose.

And what do we know about the field that you chose to work in this college athletics field? What do we know about this field as it relates to money?

The people that know the right people and are the best at networking, even if they're not the best at the job, they advance and kind of break through the glass ceiling. And everyone else, there's plenty of other people that are willing to do the job right is kind of the opinion of the higher ups, it seems like. So there's a steady workforce of people from behind who are happy to take my job if I burn out or opt out. So you kind of eat shit for as long as you can and hope that you meet the right people and climb the ladder a little bit. And I guess part of it for me is I've done that for almost a decade.

I'd really.

I know it's a sunk cost fallacy in some ways. Like, I put in all this time. I don't want to give up now, but I don't. I really like what I do. It feels rewarding. And I feel like I've been in it long enough that I should hopefully be getting a couple rungs up on the ladder soon enough.

Hmm. Okay. Okay. And have you got promoted in the last couple of years?

My specific position. There's not really a promotion. You're kind of. You're a director, but there's no, like, director of the directors. Right. You're just. You get admin status and you're there.

It seems to me that there's kind of a clear connection between you're moving to California and you're choosing this job. Do you see a connection? Kara, you were nodding very quickly. Go ahead, tell me.

Yeah, I think it parallels really well. You're talking about your profession like a similar way. Like, oh, only the top. Top people, like the lucky people make it to the top. And then I just kind of hang out here and hope, you know, but it's like, what are. What are you actually. I don't know.

Let me stop you right there, because you're about to not do yourself any favors the route you're going down.

Kara was about to start relitigating her problems with Sean. And I just don't want it. I don't need it. This doesn't mean Kara's a bad person. It's just a groove she's gotten in when she talks about Sean and his career. But this is not the time. Sean is being super open, so I want to encourage him and I want to hear more. There's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent.

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I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms.

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Months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt Once more gusto.com ramit the connection that I see is when you moved to California, you felt you could not catch up, as you put it, and you chose a safe industry where you had some personal passion. Yes, but you wouldn't have to compete. And it's safe. You're probably not going to be fired from your job. I'm guessing it's safe. It's fine. It may not have the highest potential for advancement, but you like it and it's a nice, good job. Do you care about making more money.

In the sense that it will give Kara peace of mind and provide for our family long Term? Yes. In the sense that it gives me any extra, like, happy feeling at the end of the day with a certain number attached to my name. No.

Yeah.

Okay.

I care more about providing for others than I do about, like, I have this next to my name at the pay stub.

So you said if it makes Kara happy, but Kara told us point blank she wants you to advance, and she's frustrated that you've been at this job. So you're not making her happy by staying at this job.

Yes. Yeah, we've definitely had that conversation.

So then make the connection for me, because you said, I don't care about it for myself. I don't care about the status, but I want to provide, and I'll do if it makes Kara happy. But Kara does not feel provided for and she's not happy.

I mean that. A lot of implied questions in the end of that sentence for you.

Yeah, talk to me. Talk to me. Honestly, I'm not here to tell you you're right or wrong. I just want to understand what's going on.

Fair enough. Kara is currently not as happy as she could be with this role. I guess I've decided to kind of make peace with being in it while I am still applying for other things. And the fact that I do get some emotional satisfaction or personal satisfaction from the kind of work that it is probably does, I guess, cut down on the urgency a little bit as much as anything else.

So you like the job.

You're well respected. It's a good job for you, right?

Yeah. Just the paycheck isn't and the return on hours put in.

What is the return on hours if you break it out.

Hold on.

Before you go. And I just want to. I just want to describe what just happened. I said, what is the return on hours? And you. You look to the side and you laughed. So I'm very much looking forward to what you're about to tell me.

I had an employee complain to me, student worker, they make minimum wage in the state that we live. And they were complaining kind of jokingly that they had put in long hours over the weekend at a couple of things we had going on. And they're like, I deserve a raise after this. I was like, buddy, you divide my actual salary by the hours I put in. You still make more than I do.

So you make less than minimum wage.

If you do salary divided by the actual hours the job requires. Yeah, probably.

And how do you feel about that?

Not thrilled. I've been trying to. I actually have a meeting set up with My current supervisor about an application I have out just to see if, even if I'm not picked for the job, can I use this as leverage to get a little bit more where I'm currently at?

Let's say it goes well.

How much would you go from? You're making roughly 50k. How much do you think that you might get an increase of?

I think realistically the most I could probably expect for an annual bump would probably be 10. So 1050 to 60.

Okay, that's not bad.

Nothing.

Kara's like itching to say something here. Kara, go ahead.

She wants more.

I mean, I. Oh, I mean, yeah, I found a crystal ball. I just know that I'll feel. I just, I don't want to drop like where we're at and so I won't drop my cut my hours back and I'll, I'll pick up overtime and all these things to like, make sure like the three of us have this like, you know, good life.

I think in some ways, just because I'm trying to juggle a bunch of other things that make our family happy and comfortable. There are other jobs that I see posted around the country that would be better opportunities for our family. But the place that we currently live, aside from my paycheck and my take home, is a really happy compromise of family around in the area. A climate that we enjoy, friends that we can lean on, you know, a certain amount of free child care that we can expect depending on who we're asking and.

Sorry. So, okay, so that's a very logical answer.

There's other places I could take us to. But then Kara's standard of treatment as a nurse might change, you know, like where we are at. Nursing is a very well respected profession and it's well compensated. We could go somewhere where I become very well respected and well compensated and then really we just flip. And now we're not in your family and now we're not your friends and we're not happier that way either. I don't think it's just that we've traded roles at that point. So anytime there's anything that would even be like a two hour commute, if it's a bump for me, I apply for it. But that our options feel limited. I guess by trying to balance as much of that as possible.

All of that was just words, just conjecture. It sounded logical, but I think really it was just fear disguised as thoughtful concern.

Here's my question for you. How do you know.

That I'm right? Yeah, I don't.

Well, it Seems pretty important to me. You guys decided to come on this podcast and share everything. It seems like it would be a pretty interesting answer to find the answer to, don't you think?

Yes. Yeah, it would.

I mean, you came up with this long pre rehearsed answer. Well, we got the childcare and the well respected nurse and da, da, da, da. I go, maybe. Or maybe you're just bullshitting yourself. How do you know you can't get a different job? How do you know you can't find a remote job? How do you know you can't move? How do you know, Sean? How do you know?

I don't know that we can't move. I just know that Cara would prefer not to. I feel like I only have so many moves I could make on the chessboard that would end with everyone feeling successful and happy and satisfied. I know I'm mixing metaphors here, but I'm trying to thread the needle of like, okay, we'll be a bingo. And now everyone wins.

Okay, and how do you think that she's perceiving your internal chess game? Does she see you making all these moves in your head?

I am not a great sharer, so probably.

I'm shocked. Yeah, I'm shocked. Can I just tell you what she thinks and then I'll just confirm if I'm right? She doesn't see you making any movement at all. Sometimes horrible chess players. This I'm getting on my mixed metaphor now because you made me talk about chess. This doesn't even make sense, but I'm going with it. Sometimes chess players can play themselves into a circle. All right, well, I could do this, but then I can't do that. And if I did that, then she'd be mad, and then this, and then no childcare. I'm just going to do exactly what I've been doing for the last five years. That's not playing chess. That's just being stuck.

Yeah, that's really accurate. We'll get to a breaking point where I'm like, I'm so frustrated. I feel like you're not listening to me because he's not communicating with me.

I've found that people are very, very willing to financially support their partners, to emotionally support their partners if they see their partners proactively making moves. Now, a lot of us think we only need to move upward in order for our partners to be happy. And we get so overwhelmed, we get so focused on perfection that we get paralyzed. But life doesn't only go up, life goes down. Things happen. You get laid. Off you have a sick child or a ill parent or something happens. In reality, you do not only have to be making upward moves. Instead, taking a small step, even if you get it wrong, is often better than staying stuck. Momentum really matters.

It seems like the two of you have different visions on what your life is. Would that be fair to say?

Yes. I remember actually describing. So my aunt and uncle, they are probably upper middle class, and he's.

Upper middle class. Okay.

Oh, this is juicy. Hold on. Just to describe what just happened, she goes, they're upper middle class. And Sean goes. He rolls his eyes and he smiles. Upper middle class. Okay. So, Sean, I'm guessing that they are more than upper middle class according to you.

Yeah, they're straight up, just upper class. There's no middle as part of it.

They've got a couple million dollars, I'm sure.

What a shock. Oh, wow. What's the point you're trying to make, Kara?

He. I was like, well, I kind of like their house. And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. He's like, don't have. Basically telling me not to ever have those expectations in life. And it made me feel kind of, like, selfish for, like, even wanting that.

Yeah. Can I tell you something?

Yeah.

I hate how that conversation went, the one between you two. Sean, do you see why I don't like how that went?

I mean, I don't think.

For me.

On my end, that's probably too limiting, and I'm not giving myself any credit or room to grow. And then on Kara's end, I do still feel like that was big home run swing.

But what about how your response made Kara feel?

How do you think?

That's not. That's not positive. So there's no reason for me to be that wet of a blanket.

Wet blanket.

That's exactly what you were. And that's why, from the first couple of minutes, I want to just point this tendency out that I'm sure manifests in a million different ways. Kara coming to you and saying, I'm excited about something. And what is she really saying? When she talks to you about the.

Couch or this couple, what is she.

Really saying to you?

Beneath it all, I think this is a good idea. I think this is a fun dream. Let's do it together.

Yes. It's not even that she wants that couch. It's not that. It's that she wants to engage with you. She's basically crying out for some type of engagement. Talk to me, Engage with me, get excited with me. And your response instead is what usually.

Practical which is not fun.

It's worse than practical. What did you tell her when she said, I like that couple? They're really nice. I'd like to live like that. What was your response?

I think we should lower our expectations.

Literally. It's the most toxic answer you could give. Not only are you saying, I don't want to engage with you, you're actually telling her your dreams are foolish. The worst thing a partner wants to feel is embarrassed or ashamed around the one person in life they're supposed to be able to talk to.

Honestly.

I'm not here to berate you. I want to show you a different way of thinking about money between the two of you, even if you don't see it the same way. So, Sean, how do you think you could do things differently than how you've done it in the past? The wet blanket approach.

It's always a work in progress is all. So sometimes I'm. Sometimes I'm better at catching it. And sometimes anything that we.

That is deeply part of us probably.

Take the rest of our lives to work on.

Yeah, but the fact that I picked.

Up on it in the first two minutes is a problem.

It's a real problem.

That's just the candid outside opinion. It's affecting your relationship. The way you talk about your career is like someone just hoping that they're going to win the lottery. It's like, I hope my boss is going to give me a raise because.

I really deserve it.

You're playing by the wrong rules and you don't even know it. And I think that's what Kara's frustration is about. You can learn the rules. You're a savvy guy, but you have to want to. You have to have a reason to. Right now, it just doesn't. I don't hear the reason for the two of you to change. Both of you need to start making some decisions now if you want things to change by the time your daughter's 4, 5, and 10.

We're really good at rationalizing. Oh. You know, like. And then we end up in the same spot.

What do you think this whole conversation's been about?

Yeah.

That you two are also good at admitting the problems, less so at actually wanting to make a change.

Yeah. It's really hard for people to make a change with their money if there's not a pressing reason. Usually it's one of about 10 reasons. We get married, we have a baby, we bought a house, et cetera. In this case with Kara and Sean, it doesn't seem like they really have a reason to make a change, and so they haven't. In many ways, it's as simple as that. I decided that the route I was going on was a dead end, so I wanted to move on to their conscious spending plan. And candidly, I don't have a lot of confidence right now because without a reason to change, this is just a bunch of random numbers. But who knows, let's see where this takes us. I asked them to pull out the conscious spending plan that they'd filled out before the call. You can get your own copy@iwt.com Episode 48 Listen to what happens what comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport. Scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed. We got to pull all this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time Time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gilt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With Gilt, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing, credits, deductions, business structure. It's handled and their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to Gilt's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation and as a member of my community, you get to skip the waitlist. Again, that's joingelt.com ramit join G-E-L-T.com ramit taxes don't have to be a task with Gelt. They can be a tool to build wealth. Here's a DM I got from one of my listeners about this episode's sponsor Element I love it. After my sauna cold plunge sessions I do two rounds of sauna, then cold plunge I love drinking element after my sessions. Another person said sometimes I use it the morning after I've had a Few too many drinks. I appreciate the feedback. If you like to sweat it out in the sauna or you need to feel a little better after a night out, Element can be a great way to replace your electrolytes. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte mix that comes in easy to use packets in great flavors like citrus, salt and watermelon. When you're sweating like you're at the gym or hiking or just in the heat, you're losing more than water. Element helps you stay sharp, avoid cramps and feel better. It's used by Navy seals, Olympic athletes and pro sports teams. And now what started as a seasonal drop lemonade salt is officially a favorite. It's perfect with iced tea. For a salty Arnold Palmer, get a free 8 count sample pack of elements. Most popular drink mix flavors with any Purchase@drink lmnt.com Ramit that's drinklmnt.com Ramit Find your favorite element flavor or share with a friend and you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back, no questions asked.

All right, let's look at the numbers.

So how do you feel about your.

Spending.

A little bit of shames? Well, I feel like I'll kind of go back and forth where I'm like, I'll get really excited about something and then buy it and then I feel like shame, like, oh, I kind of went too hard and treated myself or us. And then I'll like just ruminate on like numbers and like, when am I actually gonna get to a place like where I could do this and not.

Feel stress and what is the answer to that?

I paid off my car and like I paid off like a good amount of student loans and I would like log in every day and I love seeing like the progress and it made me feel really good. So I'm now have just $22,000 of student loans versus like 100. 100K. But yeah.

Hold on. Why you sound all depressed. It's like pretty amazing. Did you ever celebrate that?

No, because I haven't finished. So.

So what? Hold on a second. How old is your daughter again? Eight months. Yeah?

Yeah.

And when she turns one, you probably shouldn't have a birthday celebration because she's not dead yet. What kind of logic is that?

You know what?

I'm going to celebrate and we're all gonna do it right now. Okay?

You Paid off what?

$80,000. $78,000 of debt. Round of applause, please. Can we give her a round of applause? Yes. That's awesome.

Take the win.

Okay. Yay.

Listen, one of my philosophies is to take the win. The fact that you've paid off $78,000 and you haven't even taken a breath and given yourself a pat on the back tells me it's not actually about the numbers on this spreadsheet.

It's about you.

It's about how you feel about money.

For most of us, money is a source of guilt and shame and insecurity. And even when we're winning, we still operate with the mentality that we're losing. And do you know what we tell ourselves? When I finally do X, then I'll feel better about money. The truth is, the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated with how much you have in the bank. You've heard millionaires on this podcast who still agonize over a 300 hotel stay. And now here you hear Kara. She's done an amazing job paying off $78,000 and she feels ashamed. Personally, I think she's done an awesome job. So I want you to get in the habit of taking the win. Money should feel good along the way, otherwise it won't feel good at the end.

With the market like climbing, I was like, we need to do something. So we.

What was your conclusion?

Bought a house.

And what made you decide to buy?

Looking at other properties that we would have liked to rent and recognizing that those were going to be pretty close to what a mortgage would be based on what we're hoping to continue renting, not wanting to downsize back to like a one bedroom apartment.

And your mortgage is how much?

3,200.

3,200. Okay. Plus you got your 400 bucks of utilities, insurance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, how do you feel about the amount that you spend on your fixed costs?

Stressed it was good before and now it's not.

So just so everybody knows, we're looking at their conscious spending plan. You guys did the conscious spending plan before and in this conscious spending plan I have some recommendations on general parameters, how much you should be spending, and in general Speaking generally here, 50 to 60% of your take home pay would be a good amount for fixed costs. That would be things like your housing, cars, groceries, things like that. What's your number?

78.

Yeah, that's pretty high.

The conscious spending plan has my specific recommendations for how much you should be spending in each of the four major categories, including guilt free spending. You'll quickly learn that most people get into trouble because their fixed costs are too High.

Instead of the 28, 36 rule, which is 28% for housing and 36% for total debt, you're more like 3,242. That starts to feel really tight, doesn't it?

Yeah.

We've been sitting down with an investment advisor through a local church that we started to work with and then trying to get more into what.

How much does this guy charge you? Please don't tell me a percentage. Oh, God, look at the look on their faces. What is it, 1%? Maybe even 1.5%? Tell me.

I think there's a. A ladder based on performance of the actual accounts.

No, it's not on performance. I can tell you that they don't like to get measured on performance because they fucking suck. But there is a ladder, I'm sure, based on the number of assets you have. That's one of the reasons I started what I do. I don't think everyday people should have to become financial experts to avoid getting ripped off. And I wish you didn't have to go through this, but you did. Luckily, we caught it early. We can make some changes. So this investment advisor sat you both down and let me guess their first question. What are your financial goals?

Yes.

Yeah, it sounded right.

I'm going to assume that your advisor is charging you 1%. That's a typical scammy amount that an investment advisor would charge you. So let me ask you this, Sean. Does 1% sound like a lot to you?

I mean, at face value? No.

That's a great answer. So how come when you were mowing lawns, you didn't charge Mr. Johnson down the road 1% of his net worth to mow his lawns every week? Oh.

I mean, at the time, because I had no concept of 1% of Mr. Johnson's worth.

But would he have paid you that?

No, it was something that Sean and I felt like it was seamlessly like we were on the same page. Like. Yes. Do we want to feel secure about our finances and have like this little nest egg for our daughter or whatever? Like if something were to happen to us.

It's kind of sweet the way you both, you know, the way you put it, like it was something we did together. I like that. Unfortunately, you made the wrong decision. But the intention was good.

That part was good.

So why don't we just take the intention and make a better decision?

Okay.

Sounds good to me.

I like the intention of the two of you talking about money. You know what I like even better is the two of you keeping tens of thousands or Hundreds of thousand dollars for yourself. How about that?

Look, they got scammed by some church advisor. Fine. It happens. You're going to make mistakes with your money. Better to make them early on and fix them now rather than to wait later in life when those thousand dollar mistakes will be much more costly. I don't mind money mistakes. Life happens. Just trust yourself to notice them and to fix them.

And so because you're spending all this money on your fixed costs, what are you not able to do?

Fun things.

Tell me, like what. What are you not able to do? Think about yourself. And think about yourself as a couple.

I mean, together. It limits how often we can see my family because they're pretty far removed from us and they're in an area where there's no, no direct flight at all. So then your option is like three day road trip or nothing. It kind of affects how generous we can be for holidays or weddings or anything else. I have to start counting the pennies a little bit more.

What about the future for the two of you? Do you both want to be doing the same thing you're doing 10 years from now?

No.

Your daughter will be about 10 years old.

Absolutely not.

No. Wow, that was a resounding no. Tell me more, Sean.

Just want to point out that is the first time I heard Sean speak up that authoritatively on this entire call.

Well, I mean, she's only going to want to do more and more things. Like I want to be able to put her in whatever she wants. Like, she wants to do ballet, she wants to play T ball, she wants to. She wants to go to summer camp, whatever. Like, you know, I mean, I can start taking butter sandwiches for lunch. It's only going to save us so much money. So there's got to be some changes.

So what are those changes?

There's things that we can trim down some subscriptions that we don't need. For example, there's probably. I mean, we don't have. We were paying for YouTube TV, but.

I would say five bucks.

No, it's like 60amonth.

$60 a month for YouTube TV. All right, I'm out of touch. Who the hell would pay 60 bucks a month for YouTube TV? YouTube is going to kill me if they hear this.

I don't.

Whatever. $60 is not going to change your life. Honestly, it's not really. Yes, you should probably cancel a $60 a month thing because I don't know what the hell you get for that. But that's not going to change your life.

Yeah, they're spending nearly 80% of their take home on fixed costs. But Sean's first response is about some YouTube subscription. I have to tell you guys, I lost it here. They're both playing small, and what's worse, they're both being passive. Especially Sean. Have you noticed that they've barely asked me a single thing? Seems like they're just waiting for me to magically solve their problems. But when I ask them what they can do, the answer I get back is about a $60 subscription. I've tried talking about the numbers. I've tried talking about their childhood. I've tried talking about their relationship. I've even tried talking about the couch. And this is where I got pissed off.

There's no vision here.

Yeah, we need a vision.

Do you guys want help creating a vision?

Yeah.

Do you know how to ask for help?

Can you help us?

No, you don't. Sean. Tell me about that.

I'm terrible at asking for help.

I've been wondering for the last two hours, what am I doing here? Am I going to get asked any questions at all? You know that this is your time, right?

Like, if I were you, how would.

I have come on this call? If I were in your position and I had the chance to talk to somebody, what would I have done specifically?

Honestly, you strike me as the kind of person who would have, like, four or five bullet points of, you know, an action plan. How can we put it together? What are the deliverables? How do we get out of this?

I would have come in surgical.

I would've been like, this guy. I hardly ever get the chance to.

Talk to somebody like this.

I'm gonna milk him for every last.

Thing he can tell me until he finally says, hey, man, enough free questions. It's confusing to me, okay?

We're about to.

I mean, we're overtime. I don't mind. I'll stay as long as we need to stay. But my goal is to help you guys. But I can't help you two if.

You don't want to be helped.

And right now, it seems like both of you just want to be led along some path, and that's not the way this works. That's the entire theme of this conversation, is, do you have enough pain to want to make a change? It's still unclear to me. I think we need to fundamentally reconceptualize this dynamic right now.

Okay?

Right.

Okay. You tell me what you need, and.

I will assist you.

Okay. All right.

I got pretty mad at them. This was also me taking the burden of solving their problems. And handing it back to them, well, I guess I basically threw it back at them. What I really wanted to tell them was, Kara and Sean, your problems are yours to solve. I truly hope you solve them, and I'll be here to help. But I'm not going to do it for you. Take ownership or not. It's up to you. Now that I think about it, I wish I had said it that way. You know what else I wish? I wish you could have seen their body language. After I lit them up, they literally sat up straighter. Sean finally leaned forward, and finally they started being honest with me.

We have spent a large part of our relationship trying to realize some of Kara's dreams. Like, we really wanted to get all that debt paid down. We thought, okay, like, well, surely if we pay off all this debt, we'll have, you know, we'll have all this extra money later for different things. When it comes to our finances, the biggest hurdle for us has been that I don't know what. I don't know. I can't even start the learning process because I don't really know what questions I should be asking. I'm hoping that some of this conversation can help me figure out what the heck we're supposed to do instead of like, okay, well, that was clearly not the right answer or not a right answer.

Okay, I appreciate that. So you're looking for help.

Yeah.

Sean, you're 30 years old. You mentioned five years ago, you probably should have started investing. Yeah, probably. You should have, but you didn't. That's fine. But five years from now, your daughter's going to be five years old, almost six. What's going to be different?

I will definitely have a different job by then. I don't know what it is yet, but it will not be this.

What's going to be different about the job? Tell me about the income.

I mean, I like to see myself in, like, at least a 30 to 40% increase on what I've got, because I have the tools.

How much are you going to be making?

I would love to see myself between 75 and 90.

Okay. Took a lot to get you to say that number. What is that?

I don't know. Growing up with a family that made nowhere near that and still seemed happy, I guess.

Mm.

This is a big moment. Sean is designing his own rich life right in front of us. Nobody can get him to do it. Kara couldn't. I couldn't. It has to be Sean.

A lot of those people that I ran into. Not that all Angelenos are This way. But a lot of people I ran into used money as a weapon, and I didn't love that.

Okay. I don't want you to think that if you make more money that you're going to weaponize it or turn into an asshole. One of the reasons that I talk about money and I share real numbers and other couples is I want people to see that you can make a lot of money and you can be incredibly generous.

Sean is working off of a common invisible script that rich people are evil. So if I make a lot of money, I'll be evil and probably an asshole, too. Deep down, this is one of the things that I think has been holding Sean back from taking ownership over his career. It's not the only thing, but it's a big one.

So, Kara, you're deeply affected by your anxiety around money, and you want somebody to give you permission to know that you are making the right decision. That's one of the reasons you ask Sean, can we get this couch? I'm going to try to convince you because deep down, you're putting yourself in the position of needing somebody's blessing or needing somebody's permission, even though you don't really need it. In fact, you're the higher earner in this relationship. Okay, that's number one. And number two, Sean, you're playing a different game, which is learned helplessness. I don't know. I listened to the thing a little bit, but, like, I don't know. And that's it. Now, I will commend the two of you for getting together and getting that advisor, even though the advisor was not the right decision. Luckily, we caught it and the two of you came together today. That's awesome, too. I commend you for that. So I suggest that you consider making a few changes. The last thing you want to do is to squelch the other partner's dreams. If anything, the answer is to first engage with them, get cured. Tell me about that. Oh, my God. Tell me about this couch.

So where'd you find it?

Okay.

And you clear up, put your phone.

Away, visibly set yourself up to be an engaged partner. Tell me about this. But I don't know. If we spill, you know, our daughter's gonna spill stuff on it. What do you think about that? Not our daughter's gonna spill stuff. It'll suck. No, our daughter's gonna spill. She's.

She's a klutz.

So what are we going to do when she spills that milk on the couch? And then, of course, Kara's. Look at that smile. Kara's smiling right now. Left. She's grinning.

Kara, how would you react if he.

Said something like that?

It won't be a problem because it's stain resistant.

Exactly. She's like, got her. She pulls out like a papyrus scroll. She's ready to break down all the features.

And it's white, so of course the milk won't show.

There you go.

Look at this.

Okay, see, we can make it fun. Now, I'm not saying you have to get the couch. I am saying there's a way to talk about these things so that you two are partners, not adversaries, and not one person dragging the other by their teeth. Sean, are you on board with this so far? Yeah.

Yeah, I am.

And I hope, Sean, it's lighting a fire under you to start making more money.

Because if you make a lot more.

That'S going to automatically make this 74% go down.

Right.

Because your denominator will be bigger.

Yeah, right. You're diluting it. Yeah, I get that.

What are you going to do with that money?

I personally, it sounds like it would be a better idea to sock it away for long term investment.

Agreed.

Okay.

Okay, I'm going to share something on my screen. I'm going to calculate out something for you here. So this is how much you currently have. You two have $52,000 invested. That's what you told me.

Okay.

Right now you're going to add $400 a month. That's like your baseline for investments, correct? Yeah. All right, so I'm adding $4,800 a year. I'm going to give you 35 years to grow it, just to show you what would happen by the time you approximately retire. And I'm going to assume a 7% interest rate. I know you don't understand where that comes from. Chapter seven of my book will tell you chapter six and seven. Okay, so if you just do that, you have $1.2 million.

Where this calculator.

What's that face you just made, Kara? She looked like I just put some hemlock in her coffee. What was that look on your face?

Disbelief.

Why is that?

I don't know. That's crazy how it can just sit there and then grow that much. I don't know. I know. It's like compounding. And that's what we're trying to understand.

I like that. I would like to make that even higher. Oh, you would?

Really?

Well, wow.

Look at. She's just clapping right now. Okay, what do you notice about the dynamic between the Two of you right now.

Both smiling. So that's good.

Positive dreaming.

Yeah.

It seems like you guys are a team.

I have to say, it's funny most of the time. By the time we're in this, it's like very nuts and bolts. But I actually love watching the two look at these smiles. And the two of you are really collaborating together. I really admire it.

I was loving their teamwork at this point in the call. You could see it in the their smiles. You could see it in their body language. You could hear it in their voices. This is how money should sound when you talk about it. Of course, to get to this point, you have to understand the fundamentals of money and you have to have some basic numbers in place. If you don't have that, it's no surprise that people fight for their Entire lives over $3 questions. Ultimately, I wanted to Kara and Sean to realize that they have to find their solution. There's no magic trick I can pull.

Out to fix this.

The answer is in changing the way they both treat money, especially Sean.

Between the two of you, you can tweak a couple things. The changes you made actually already made you a million dollars. It's just going to take you a long time to have it. But I don't think you want to wait until. Until you're 65 years old to have money in your application. Kara, you said, like, I want to live, I want to travel. Ultimately, the biggest driver here is your income. And that is exactly what I wanted.

Us to get to.

If I came in here and I tell you, Sean, you got to make more money, you're like, basically, fuck off. I know, but I like my job and my co workers are nice. But if you have a vision that.

You created together.

Then it becomes very clear what to do. How do you both feel right now? At least?

Like we're pointed in the right direction.

Yeah.

Hopeful that this momentum will continue and that will be united. And I just, I feel the urgency and I want him to feel that with me.

I found three layers to Kara and Sean's problems. First, the mechanical answer is that they're spending too much on their fixed costs. Second, the more detailed answer is that Sean needs to get a better paying job. And third, the real answer is that they both have to change the way they treat money, and Sean has to take on the bigger part of the this. Now they have a lot of work to do, but they realize they have to do it together. After speaking to Sean and Cara, I asked them to follow up with me in a few days with what had surprised them and what specific actions they were taking. Based on our call, Cara did exactly that. She'd already gotten rid of their expensive financial advisor and she had reinvested their money Using my System to read the rest of the changes that Kara made, you can go to iwt.com followups but I want to tell you what I heard from Sean. Now in these follow ups I often get pages of details. I got a lot of details from Kara, but Sean didn't follow up with me in a few days like I asked. My team actually had to reach out to him and ask him to follow up. He replied with the following single sentence. I think the biggest takeaways for me were the importance of communicating more frequently. So Kara feels like we're on the same page and it just further underscored a need for a career shift on my part. What do you think? What do you think happens over five or 10 or 15 years when in a relationship, one person, the leader, becomes increasingly frustrated that the other person is not being proactive, is not making changes? If you go to iwt.com follow ups, you'll be able to see future updates from Sean and Kara and my other podcast guests. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach youh To Be Rich my book. Pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach youh to Be Rich system into your personal finances.