5. “I paid off $50,000 of debt, but I still feel guilty buying toothpaste”

If you've recently discovered this podcast and you've wondered, how can I get Ramit to answer my specific money question, There are two ways to do it. Number one, you can apply to be on this podcast, although we are already full for the rest of the year. Number two, you can join my Money Coaching membership in this program. We do a ton of cool stuff I want to make sure you know about it. We do a monthly live call with me where I cover some of my favorite money topics that I can't go into publicly in as much detail as and I break down our members conscious spending plans. Plus I answer your questions live. We also have tons of virtual events coming up that cover every aspect of living a rich life. For example, our new event Money for Aging Parents is coming up at the end of October that is included for all Money Coaching members. You get access to our library of all past calls like how to find an extra thousand dollars a Month and how to do a Rich Life annual review. Plus we have a Money Coaching community group where you can see inspiration how other people are spending their money and get your own questions answered if you want to get help. If you want to meet amazing other people in Money Coaching and you want to build your rich life faster and bigger, you should check out Money Coaching today. Go to iwt.commoneycoaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching.

He gets really upset because he wants me to be more positive and he wants to be able to do things with his money and. Sorry, it makes me feel bad.

It's okay.

Makes me feel bad that I can't like give him those things.

I can see it in her face. I can see her calculating before we even look at like hotel prices or like no prices at all. I can see her already coming to the conclusion that we can't afford it. I think it's really frustrating.

I want to be free. Like, I feel like I have this chain around me and I can't live my life because if I buy something nice or I do something for our apartment, I just have this voice in the back of my head like, why are you buying this? Why aren't you paying off your debt? We talk a little bit on surface level about money, but I don't think we've ever really talked about like this. And so it's kind of the first time I'm hearing it.

Welcome to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi and my guests today are Sheena and Peter who are both climbing their way out of substantial debt. For today's episode, I'm going to focus on Sheena's debt because it's causing both of them a lot of stress. Sheena has already paid off tens of thousands of dollars, and she also knows exactly when the rest will be paid off. But she just can't seem to stop feeling bad about money. She thinks about it all the time when she's at the grocery store, when she's eating out, and also when she and Peter are talking about their future together. Now, within minutes, I knew there was something a lot deeper than the debt itself. Remember, this is almost never a math problem. Let's start with her family and as we go along, listen for the clues.

We never really talked about money. Looking back now as an adult, I see that there was a lot of bad credit card usage. My mom, she actually just told me that she cut up her credit cards yesterday. I know, like, when I would help my grandmother pay her bills, I know she had a large amount of debt on her credit cards and she would only pay the minimum. But I remember thinking like, this is never going to get paid off. And you know, when she died, that fell on the family. So selling stuff to pay off the debt. And so I don't think my family really handled money very well. It's. It's kind of frustrating. But also, I don't really blame them. I understand, I understand why they were in that situation or in, or in that situation. When I was going to college, my mom's like, take out as many, like, as much loans as you can, like the full amount. And so that's what I did. And so I graduated with, you know, like $70,000 of student loans. And I don't think my mom realized what kind of burden that would put on me in the future. That constant debt, like I have to pay it every month. And it's, you know, it's not cheap. It's like, you know, 400 some dollars a month and I've gotten it down a lot. I'm around $15,000 now left. So it feels better because I'm like, okay, it's getting there. Like I've paid it down from 70,000. But yeah, it's definitely like always felt like a burden or like this dark cloud over me. Like I'm constantly thinking about my debt. Anytime I have to or want to buy something, anytime, like I'm going to the grocery store, I'm thinking, okay, how much money do I have? Oh, I don't have as much as I need. So there's like, health things that come up. Like, I just had to get an MRI and it was $500, and I'm thinking, well, now I have to pay that off. So it wouldn't be that bad if I didn't have the student loan debt and then the credit card debt on top of that. So I feel like I can't really pay for these necessities that come up.

To people in debt. One of the most common feelings they have is one step forward, two steps back. There's even a concept called the poor tax, where poor people actually end up paying more for things like shoes because they can only afford to buy poor quality shoes. Those are the same shoes that break more frequently than higher quality shoes. So here in Sheena's case, she's making progress, and then something comes up that sets her back again. After one time, two times, three times, it's not just frustrating, it starts to feel hopeless. You have to remember we're not robots. If you and I try something and fail repeatedly, the vast majority of us just give up. So when you look at Sheena's behavior through this lens, one step forward, two steps back. I did everything right, and I can't seem to get ahead. Her feelings start to make a lot more sense.

Like a year ago, we were talking about going to Japan, and it's something that we really wanted to do for our 10th anniversary, which is this year. And my first thought was, how are we going to make that happen? I have so much debt. I need to pay that offer. How am I going to do this? Like, I don't have money saved. And then I was looking into where we would want to stay and how much that's going to cost because, you know, we don't want to go to Japan and stay in, like, a really cheap hotel. Like, we want to have the full experience. And it just kept adding up. And I'm like, how would I do this?

It's like a pretty common pattern where I can see it in her face. I can see her calculating, tallying things up before we even look at, like, hotel prices or, like, no prices at all. I can see her already come to the conclusion that we can't afford it. It's frustrating. And it's also a bummer because it's supposed to be a nice thing, right? It's supposed to be 10th anniversary. It's not even about, like, staying at nice hotels. Like, if it's not in the cards for us to have this kind of, you know, extravagant trip, my Thinking is always, oh, we can always find something that we would enjoy. It doesn't have to be extravagant. But I can see it in her face already that she's already decided it's not possible. And I think it's really frustrating. I've always had this mindset, okay, we'll figure it out. And if it's, even if it's not the most ideal, we can find something that is enjoyable for us.

I get really frustrated, I think, and I kind of shut down and I just give up. Oh, it's going to cost this much. You know, I just kind of go into the same thing where I'm explaining, I don't have this money set aside, I have two too much debt. It's not possible for us to do this. I think it's just ingrained in me. I've been in so much debt for so long, you know, like paying off student loans or I was kind of stupid in my 20s and so I'm like, I'm still paying for that as like, you know, a 35 year old woman. And so my, my plan right now is like, I need to put all my money I can to my debt and I need to get that off. And I don't have this plan or like way of thinking where I do that and live my life. And I think that is a very hard thing for me to figure out.

Did you catch all those clues?

Sheena feels frustrated by her debt. Okay, fine. But then Peter points out that she instinctively says no to anything for the two of them, meaning her debt is now affecting their relationship. And did you hear what he said? He said I could see it in her face. Even for something like their 10 year anniversary. You know what I found most interesting though? In one sentence, Sheena says she basically wants to give up. But then just a few seconds later, she says she has a plan. And that plan is to put all her money towards her debt. This is a really big clue. This is all or nothing thinking. The idea that you either have to go 100% all in or you're a total failure. And this is really the key to what's going on here. You feel bad for long enough, you either completely give up or if you stay in the game, you're very likely to develop tunnel vision. Listen to Sheena as she grapples with.

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He gets really upset because he wants me to be more positive and he wants to be able to do things with his money and sorry it makes me feel bad.

It's okay.

Makes me feel bad that I can't like those things.

Okay.

And if you could, how would you. What would it mean to you if you were able to think positively?

I think it would be better for him and me, but I do think it would be more supportive of him. I think I have like an all or nothing mentality a lot of the times, which he's like, oh, no, we'll figure something out. So I think that's exactly what happens, is that I'm sitting there thinking about it and I'm like, well, we can't do it.

Like, for example, we redo our apartment. And when we were initially talking about it, she has this kind of reaction where it's like, overwhelmed already. Before even sort of broke it down. And I didn't even mention, like, okay, maybe we'll just paint the walls or get rid of stuff. It wasn't just the idea of redoing our apartment overwhelmed her. It made me feel like I'm always taking the lead, whereas I want her to feel like she's a part of the process too.

Sheena, what do you think about what Peter just said?

I'm sorry.

Okay, take your time.

It makes me feel a little sad that maybe he thinks I'm putting a lot of. A lot of this on him to figure things out. And I do. I do kind of shut down right away. I get it's. It is. It's because I get overwhelmed. And I don't know if that's just because I'm constantly stressed about debt and money, but it makes me feel sad. And it's hard because we never. I mean, we talk a little bit on surface level about money, but I don't think we've ever really talked like this. And so it's. It's kind of the first time I'm hearing it. It's just kind of. It's kind of like a nagging voice, you know, just always there like, you shouldn't be buying this. You shouldn't be buying socks right now. You have socks. Like stupid little things like that.

You know, I get a sense of a lot of guilt following us around with how we spend money. And like, for example, like we just had a staycation in New York and, you know, it was a special that we split and all stuff the entire time. Even though we were in this nice room and we were holding room service, you could just feel it. It was like person there where it's like, do not enjoy this. You can't enjoy this.

Right.

Yeah.

Even though we set money aside, we just couldn't enjoy it as much as we wanted to.

Who's that third person there hovering over? Is it the same. Is it the same person that you said Sheena nags you in your head?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel it.

Did you know this, Sheena? Did you know that Peter knows about this?

I don't know if I really knew.

I think you get a sense of it. Yeah, you get a sense of it. If I'm preempting your response to, like, decorating the apartment or coffee, then I know it's there.

Of course, you both do. You're a couple. You know each other. You don't even have to say anything.

If I can stick to my schedule and nothing else comes up, it'll be March 2020, too.

And when is your debt payoff date?

It is October 2022.

I have to tell you that of the people I speak to who have debt, 95% of them do not know when their debt will be paid off. So you are in a very elite group of people.

I probably look at my finances too much.

Yeah, we should talk about that.

Yeah.

Lots of hints here. Lots of clues.

First, I'm really impressed that Sheena knows her debt payoff date.

Almost nobody knows this.

That demonstrates she's not acting like an ostrich. She's not trying to put her head in the sand and avoid her debt. She's really done some serious work to take control of her debt. And in fact, she's paid off over $50,000. If you want to know how to pay off your debt and create a debt payoff plan, you can learn how using my book. But also notice that she constantly beats herself up. Money is not a source of accomplishment to her. It's not opportunity or growth. It's guilt, shame, negativity. When you hate money, you will make very, very bad decisions around it. Listen, as I probe about her feelings.

Around money, when your debt is paid off, do you think your attitude toward money will change?

I don't know. That's what I'm a little worried about. I'm worried that I don't know, like, that I'm going to get to this place and that I'm going to feel the same way. Am I actually going to feel better when I get to that point? I really hope so, but I don't know if I'm going to. I don't know if I'm going to stop worrying about money. Like, I would love to not have to worry. Oh, do I Have enough in my checking account to pay for these groceries or do I just use my credit card because I don't have enough?

I think about it in terms of also, like, fitness and finances are very similar. And I think about, you know, we got in shape for our wedding, and then we kind of slacked off a little bit afterwards. And I feel like that's a possibility, too, if, like, even though her debt would be paid and she doesn't have this cloud above her, I still feel like she might have that guilt still around spending money.

I mean, it's a possibility because then I would be terrified. Like, oh, my God, I can't, you know, I can't have anything on my credit cards. Would be maybe a little scared to spend that. But I would be hoping that based on my spreadsheet that I do have, that I wouldn't have to look at that intensely because I wouldn't have all these little other bills to pay. I would be hoping that it would be okay because I, you know, I would have my budget of how much I could spend, spend, and then I would pay it off every month, which I've never been able to do that before.

I think that your attitude towards money is not going to change at all if you keep doing what you're doing. I think that you are going to pay off your debt. I have total confidence in that. And I think that you are going to continue worrying because it's comfortable and it's what you've known. You already have a plan. So if you were going to stop worrying, you would have already been doing it. That little third party, Franny, or whatever we want to call her, Franny's going nowhere unless you force Frannie out. And that takes a lot of work. That takes the work that you're doing right now. I know many, many people who pay off their debt or even worse, they make a lot of money and they still feel the exact same way. And they thought that the money and the spreadsheet would solve it. But it's two totally separate problems. Totally.

It scares me a little bit because, like, I don't want to feel like that. I don't want to keep feeling like this.

Yeah.

So tell me what I need to do to change so I don't feel like this in the future. I don't want to go. I don't want to be living in a spreadsheet. But I do. I track every little thing that I buy. Yeah, I used to do it every night. I don't anymore. I do it every Friday My Friday finances.

And how does it make you feel when you do it?

It makes me feel in control.

Oh, wow. Tell me more about that.

I just feel. It makes me feel like I have a handle on my money and like I'm doing what I need to do.

Okay, then if that's true, then why do you feel guilty when you buy toothpaste?

Okay, listen closely. Sheena is about to have a major breakthrough.

You know, because I'm probably doing it wrong. I'm trying to pay off my credit cards. Maybe too soon. So what happens is that I put this huge chunk of money onto my credit cards and I give myself $150 to spend for the week, which doesn't even cover my food anymore. So every little thing I buy takes out of that $150 a week, and that runs out pretty fast, especially if all of a sudden I have to get toothpaste.

You didn't budget for that? I'm sure nobody does.

I did not. Yeah, those little things like come come into play, and then I have to end up using my credit card again.

And is there a realization you're hearing as you talk about this out loud.

That I'm not budgeting properly?

What does that mean specifically?

Like, I am putting too much money onto paying off my debt, but I just feel like I need to be paying it off fast.

Almost. Almost like it's all or nothing.

Yeah, I didn't even think of that. That all or nothing really sneaks up on me.

All or nothing thinking shows up again. This is the idea that if you're watching what you eat and you suddenly have a few chips, your entire day is ruined. So screw it. I'm gonna have a pizza and chips and ice cream. Either I'm perfect or I won't even participate at all. Now, of course, hearing this sounds absurd. We know that when kids start to learn how to ride a bike, they suck. Every kid listening to this, you suck.

At riding a bike. You don't know anything.

You can't even stay up on those two pedals. But guess what? We don't expect them to be some racing champion. These kids are just happy. They're having fun. Yeah, they're just happy if they can.

Ride upright for 10 seconds.

But as adults, we are so unfamiliar with what it feels like to start from ground zero that we create these all or nothing scenarios. Either we are 100% great, or we're not going to play at all. Remember my 85% solution from my book, getting 85% of the way there is better than dreaming about 100% and actually getting 0% of the way there at all.

When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k, matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com ramIt once more. Gusto.com ramit there's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent and I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent. In fact, I want more freedom right now than buying a 30 year mortgage. But if I'm spending thousands of dollars a month, I want to get some of the perks that homeowners get. And that is where BILT comes in. BILT is a loyalty program for renters. You pay your rent through BILT and you can earn points for it. Think about it. You're earning points for your biggest expense every single month and you can redeem those built points towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides or even future rent payments. BILT has evolved into a complete rewards ecosystem where you get rewarded for the first time as a renter. And it's easy. Almost any payment method is compatible so you can start earning right now. I wish I had had this when I first started living in New York. Plus, BILT recently announced that homeowners will be able to get rewarded the same way on their mortgage in 2026. So stay tuned. Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com Ramit that's J-O-I N B I L T.com Ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you.

Of course, it hits us in every part of life. So for just a moment, I want you to inhabit my world. What I would be saying if I heard somebody in your situation and I'm going to repeat a few facts that they've shared with me. And then you play the role of me and you give me some advice. So here are the facts. I've had debt for a long time. I've paid off a considerable amount and I'm within striking distance of paying it off. I know the exact month and year. I check my finances every Friday. So I know it makes me feel in control throughout the week. Things tend to come up and then I overspend. I put it on my credit card. It makes me feel bad. I hear a third voice in the back of my head telling me that's bad. You shouldn't do that. What advice would you give me?

I think that maybe you shouldn't be putting as much onto paying off your debts so that you have that amount set aside for things that come up during the week. But that feels very wrong for me to say.

Why?

Because having this high interest debt is just adding, you know, every month. There's just more and more interest added on to it. So I don't know, it's just bad to have that much debt.

What I want to point out to you is that money is multidimensional. You're looking at it from the mathematical perspective, which is great. We always want to understand the math. You know your debt payoff date, you know your interest rate. Awesome. But I want you to really reflect on the moments where you have gotten overwhelmed or visibly upset on this call. Let me give you a hint. It wasn't around the math. What was it around?

Our relationship and how it's affecting that.

Yeah, yeah. And so you are following the rules. But they are the rules that you set up for yourself. And to tell you the truth, they're making you really upset. So what I see when I hear you is someone who has accomplished something extremely impressive. 70k to less than 15k is amazing. Knows their debt payoff date, is willing to come here and talk to me and engage with your partner. But I just see that this rule you've created for yourself is so tightly wound. It's like a rubber band that's ready to snap. And if I could simply suggest one thing would be, what if we just loosened that just a little? What is it? What does it feel like when you hear that?

I think it's a little scary because then that means, you know, I live with my debt for a little bit longer. But I think it might be the right thing to do. I think it would make me feel a little bit more at ease, too, in life with Peter.

All right, this sounds good. Let's figure out a plan of attack, starting with how much Sheena is spending.

Eighteen hundred and sixty dollars per month of credit card debt off.

Is that correct, at least?

So I want to say it's really counterintuitive to slow your payments on debt, but because you were both really disciplined about your fitness journey, I'm going to use the fitness analogy. You know that if you cut your calories too much, it's possible that you just stop the program altogether. And I think we've all experienced this. We go a little too aggressive, and then we just zoom back the other way. Or perhaps you stretch it to 15 months or 16, whatever the number may be, but you're actually going to sustain it and not feel bad the entire time. Most importantly of all, you are starting to work on your money psychology before the debt is paid off. You go down this route, you pay off your debt, you're still going to be feeling bad, and you're going to have Franny sitting there in the corner for the rest of your life. To me, that's a failure, because on paper, you're going to be debt free. But I know so many other IWT readers, they have made so much money and they are still living guilty lives. The guilt that they started feeling at the age of 15 or 20, that's a failed rich life to me. Yes, you are going to pay a little bit more in interest. That's okay. It's rare for me to say this, but it is okay. Because the rules you set for yourself are so strict and stringent. They're causing you to not live a good life. And it's starting to have serious costs. It's starting to be a barrier between the two of you.

Yeah, I see that. Because last year alone, I paid off 15,000 just on my credit card. And that was with, you know, partially, like, not having a job too part of the year. So I was really, really, really strict. And it was not fun. It was not fun. I don't really even feel that much better right now paying all that off. So I see what you're saying.

Now that Sheena and Peter have a plan that's realistic, we need to do a little bit of what I call failure expectation. When we're creating a plan. I always like to talk about the risks, especially when people are about to change the way that they interact with money. I want to inoculate them against what can go wrong because it's going to help them understand what pitfalls to look out for, and that's going to make them much more likely to succeed.

I mean, obviously there's going to be more interest, but I really can't see risks with it because I actually feel it would be less risky because right now if I run out of money in my checking, I'm going to my credit card. So it actually seems safer to me in a way. A safer option in terms of the money?

Yeah. I don't see, other than extending the time frame for her payoff, I think the longer payment plan might scare her in the beginning. But if that gives her more time to enjoy her money and relax a little bit about it, she'll work through that and get over it after a little bit.

I guess the worst fear would be just running my credit cards up so much that I can't afford to pay the minimum and pay for rent and pay my student loans. That's the worst thing that could happen.

And what happens then?

My credit score goes down and I get charges on top of that because I'm not paying the minimum. And then so just kind of like digging myself into a bigger hole.

Yeah. And then what happens?

I don't know.

I always like to ask because, you know, we have these low grade fears often and with money, I would say yours has been more than a low grade fear. You're talking about groceries and you're thinking about money. But when I ask what's the worst that could happen? It's, well, I might get more debt. Okay, what does that mean? Well, my credit score might go down, but who really cares about your credit score? What does that matter?

Yeah.

So what is the worst fear, do you think about your relationship?

Very scary. It's just scary. It's like it's making me emotional thinking about it. I just think it, it puts so much stress in my life and I don't think I've realized for a long time how much stress it gives me. I don't want to have to think about. I just feel like there's no end in sight. It's just the stress and I don't want that. I want to be free. Like, I feel like I have this chain around me and I can't live my life because if I buy something nice or I do something for our apartment, I Just have this voice in the back of my head like, why are you buying this? Why aren't you paying off your debt?

People who have financial problems love to talk about their problems. My job is to get them out of that cycle and to gently focus them on solutions. Here I have a situation where Sheena's money psychology runs deep and it's affecting her relationship with Peter. So what I did was I asked them to put themselves in each other's shoes and verbalize how their partner probably feels. And this is a really, really difficult exercise. And I'm using it because it forces them to get out of their heads and out of their automatic responses.

What comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport. Scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff and taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second that we get overwhelmed, we got to pull this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend Gilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gilt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With Gilt, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing, credits, deductions, business structure. It's handled. And their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to Gilt's full tax library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation. And as a member of my community.

You get to skip the waitlist.

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Okay, I'm gonna try to think like how you think. We talk about the Japan trip. And if you came to me how I did, I would feel very sad. I feel like you shut down the shutdown. Like, the whole idea.

Money is emotional. I would be surprised if you weren't. You're talking about something you've probably never talked about at this level.

I think you might feel kind of nervous to bring up anything else in the future, maybe that you couldn't contribute to the relationship because I would just, you know, shut it down, shut down an idea. So maybe that would make you feel and scared to communicate to me.

I would feel frustrated because I want to do things with you. I want to enjoy life with you. But it doesn't seem like I can. And it frustrates me and it can make me feel like I'm not part of or I'm not fun. I can't be a part of this relationship because there's something wrong with Me, I can't get out of this hole, and it frustrates me. And I know it frustrates you, and I don't know what to do about it. That's what I feel like when I think about what you must be going through.

Sheena, what do you think about what Peter says?

I think it's pretty accurate. Yeah, I think. I think, you know, I feel like I can't get out of the hole because I've been in it so long. I guess what I would add is that I just feel like I can't really enjoy life without feeling bad about it. I feel guilt. Yeah. I don't think we've ever really talked about that.

Yeah, we never really talked about life after debt.

Yeah, you never have. Even though you had a debt payoff plan, you never once talked about what happens the day after. Well, let's start at the ground level. What if you could go to the grocery store and never, ever think about how much toothpaste costs for you?

That would be amazing.

The simple things in life. We start there.

Never.

You do not have to price shop on this toothpaste first. You just get it. You want to get two, be my guest. Okay. What would the next level be?

If we could try, you know, when things open up. If we could try, like, a new cocktail bar that we love to do.

Great. How many times per month?

Let's keep it at one.

And how many drinks?

Three each. That would be really nice.

Yeah.

Yeah. So part of changing your psychology, both of you, is to really start to be able to dream bigger. We have earned the right to think bigger. What are you going to do the first month after you paid off the debt?

We should go for a nice dinner.

We've gone to nice dinners. We always go to nice dinners. I feel like we should go, like, upstate or something. Like, we always talk about going to a road trip, going somewhere outside of the city, spending some time together, and hopefully Franny's not there.

Franny's not allowed. Not going to be invited along?

No. I feel like we will be able to talk about things more and be, I think, more optimistic about things we want to do or, like redecorating the apartment or trips or even, you know, thinking about going to a nice bar when things open up again. I think she'll be more optimistic and excited about it, and I would feel less stressed in terms of approaching her or having to figure things out all the time. She's always worried about money, and I feel like we can feel more like a team with how we decide to spend our time and money and lives together.

That's what I was thinking too.

I love this episode because we had so many dynamics at play. Sheena's debt, her impressive payoff, but her focus on money as a source of stress and shame. And of course, how that was affecting her relationship with Peter. Here's my suggestion to you. Listen to this episode with your partner and talk about the conversation. Use this as a sound sounding board. Ask your partner what they noticed. Ask them if they've ever felt overwhelmed with money. Tell them a time where you have. If you find that either of you are judging throughout this episode, pause for a second. Try to understand the ways that you are irrational with your money or that you are emotional or just plain weird about money. You might be surprised and remember in personal finance when we overvalue math and undervalue psychology. This podcast is meant to help you change that.

I received a follow up letter from Peter and Sheena a few months after we spoke. Now you can read the full letters@iwt.com follow ups, but here's an excerpt of what Peter wrote. Since the show, we have zero tension talking about anything money related. Now we've booked a trip together without having to question if we could afford it, even upgraded our seats. We started saving for a bigger apartment which includes $15,000 for fees and movers, and ended up saving too fast. Being on your podcast really took our.

Relationship to a new level.

We just want to thank you so much. To read the full letter, go to iwt.com follow ups and enter your email address. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach.

Youh to Be Rich. Here's what you'll find next week on the I Will Teach youh to Be Rich podcast.

I do wish my parents helped more, 100%, but they're very old school that believed the husband should be making money, the husband should be providing and everything.

It becomes a big fight and we try to make up at the end of the night, but it adds up. We were living month to month and I didn't think it was going to be like that before we got married. If you want me to provide, we got to downgrade. I can't keep providing a life support style that we can't afford.