62. “Why are we waiting for payday if we make $140k?”

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We'Ve buckled down to about as far as we can buckle down. We don't even have cable anymore and it's not the most fun thing in the world.

Yeah, I constantly feel buckled down.

I don't want to throw Andre under the bus, but I mean if I try to talk about money or like get like a partner and things, it's he kind of glazes over and disassociates.

The debt is the mountain and we're at the bottom and it' always looking up. There's never. It's almost like the Sisyphus of pushing the rock up the hill and then it just tumbles down the other side. And we're still pushing, but it seems like the daily conversation is stress and the things we can't do and the things we have to wait till Friday for payday.

Can I tell you something very candid? At $140,000 a year, you should not be thinking about payday.

No, it's not at all helping.

Have you ever felt good about money?

No.

How would you feel if you made $140,000 a year and you were still Counting down the days until payday. That's where Andre and Amy are. They're 42 and 34 years old and they feel hopelessly buried in debt. As I go through today's conversation, I'm going to ask them what options they think they have. And even though I see lots of options, they don't. They truly feel stuck. And I want to point something out to you. Their fixed costs are 92% of their income. Let me say that again. Their fixed costs are 92% of their of their income. If you've used my conscious spending plan, you know that that number should be around 50 to 60%. So it suddenly explains a lot of what you're going to hear in today's conversation to get your own copy of the conscious spending plan and work through it together with Andre and Amy in today's conversation. Get it from iwt.com episode62 now let's get started.

Amy, can you remember a time in the last month or two where you and Andre were stressed out about money?

Yes. I feel like that's every single day. I think yesterday was probably the first like the most recent thing, the most recent conversation we had my, one of my siblings getting married and we have, you know, we have to buy a suit for Andre. I need a dress, a gift, other wedding participation thing, a bachelor party, that sort of thing. So we were kind of stressing about that as we don't really know how we're going to be able to afford the things we need to afford in order to participate as much as we'd like. It really feels like we don't have anything extra to set aside. And you know, for fun things like this, I wouldn't say it requires like our emergency fund, but the same goes for any sort of like emergency that pops up. We just, we try really hard to save as much as we can but towards the end of the month there's like maybe 100 bucks set aside.

What is your household income?

It's a little over 140 I think.

Should you feel stressed out about $100 purchase at $140,000 a year?

No, shouldn't. Shouldn't feel stressed out. Not at all.

So what do you think's going on?

I think that we have a lot of debt. Yeah. Over committed ourselves financially to things and I think we have some debt from the past that is still, still an issue for us. And you know, we've been really working hard. I will say for the past three years we haven't used a credit card for anything. We've only been making payments, and that is a big win for us. But it's now we're getting to a point where. Okay, now it's time for the next step. What. What can we do to. To, like, have. I don't know, just to feel better about our financial situation.

What do you think would make you feel better?

Oh, I don't. I honestly have no idea. I want to say, like, something as simple as, like, getting rid of our debt, but I don't know if that's actually even true. I think that this will always be a little bit stressful for me, and I need to figure out why that is.

Big clues here. Amy thinks that, quote, only making payments is a big win. And do you notice her audible size? The big size? She has no idea what could make her feel better or why money is stressful for her. Lots of questions right now. Not many answers yet. That's fine. Let's get to know Amy a little bit more to see if we can start clearing things up.

If you had to describe your own relationship with money, how would you describe it?

It's definitely complicated. I think that I have been kind of like, if I reflect back, I feel like I've been grinding my whole life to get to be in a better position than I was growing up and to do more and more, you know, do things like be able to travel and that sort of thing. But I keep waiting for, like, oh, we made it part, and it, like, never happens, or, like, it never feels like I'm working enough for making enough or doing enough. And then the flip side of that, it's also this, like, thought of, well, you. You can't wait to enjoy life when you're old. You can't wait until you're older. You never know what's going to happen. So, like, you know, spend the money, go to your sister's bachelorette party and have a good time and stress about it later.

And would you describe that as a healthy relationship with money or.

No? No, no. It's not at all healthy.

Have you ever felt good about money?

No.

What's the first memory you have of money?

I mean, mostly just growing up, you know, being told no a lot, not being able to afford a lot of things. I started working when I was 14 years old so that I could go to, like, a movie with my friend because my mom couldn't afford it.

So what'd you do at 14?

I worked for my friend's dad. He was a lawyer, and I cleaned his office two days a week.

Nice what did you make?

Oh, golly, I can't even remember. I think it was like maybe $10 an hour.

Were you middle class poor? How would you describe yourself?

That one's hard because I. Middle class, I think. But my mom personally was very poor. My grandparents sent us to private school, but there were months where my mom couldn't put food in the fridge. So it's a little bit strange. So I guess. I guess poor. But my grandpa bought me braces.

What do you learn from that, looking back?

Well, I can see a lot of different things from that. Like I overstock, like our fridge and our cupboards with food.

Classic. Classic.

Classic.

Whenever you see someone making peculiar decisions with their money, or certainly having peculiar behaviors with their money, there's almost always a reason why. For example, if you see someone, an adult, using a debit card, it is very likely that they have credit card debt and they are therefore using a debit card because they don't want to add onto their credit card debt. It's a very interesting way that people manage a credit card debt situation. Now, 90% of those same people do not have a debt payoff plan. They do not know when their debt will be paid off, but they do what they know, which is lock that credit card away and instead use a debit card.

What we are hearing here is that.

Amy has a family history of how she grew up learning about money and now she does things like overstocking their fridge. I bet you if we talked a little bit more, we'd find out lots of other peculiar behaviors she has. I did notice one thing. I'm really curious about that sigh that she keeps giving me anytime I ask her a question about money. It's sigh that's interesting to me. I have to probe a little bit and figure out where that sigh is coming from.

Amy, virtually every money question I've asked you, you answered it with a very large sigh. I don't even think you know you do it.

Yeah, probably not.

Okay.

I just, I feel like you. I just, I feel like there's an answer you want, but like, in our realistic life, it's just not always the way it will be.

Is your realistic life working for you?

I mean, as far as our relationship.

No. Financially.

Oh, no. But I thought you meant like in our relate. Like the way you want us to talk to each other in our relationship.

Well, also that, I mean, is the way that you communicate about money working for you?

No. But it's not because we're like being mean to each other.

Yeah. I don't think you're being mean. I think you two are very loving to each other. I really enjoy talking to you. It's just that money has a very odd power in your relationship, and so I'm not trying to feed you lines. I'm trying to let the love that you both clearly have for each other come through with money too. That's all I'm trying to do. So when I point out that you let out a big sigh, it's interesting to me because you don't do that with anything else. I've asked you a lot of questions on today's call. A lot. It's only the money questions that cause you to react like that, which tells me I would like to help you identify that and then reframe it.

Yeah, I'm a little stressed out because of this call.

The more time we spend together, I think she'll get more comfortable. I think it's just an anxiety thing.

My mom also stresses me out, so that.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Okay, good. Hold on. Let me file that away. Okay, so. Okay, so. So you grew up without too much money, but yet you went to private school. You had braces. Okay. And if. If somebody from the outside had to describe your relationship with money, what would they say?

I don't necessarily know if anyone from the outside could describe my relationship with money, because it's not something that I talk about.

Why not?

I just was raised to not talk about that kind of thing.

What'd they say?

You just don't talk to other people about your personal finances, and yet you're.

On a podcast talking to a lot of people. That's kind of interesting.

Hence the stress.

Ah, gotcha. Well, in a way, I think it's very courageous what you're doing, you know, to be taught not to talk about money, which is a very common thing, and then to say, you know what? I need help, and if it means that I'm gonna have to open up like I'd never opened up before, wow. I think it's very courageous of you. There are plenty of things in life we have to agonize over. I don't believe money should be one of them.

Amy strikes me as being very authentic in this exchange.

She's being real.

Have you ever considered applying to be on this show? Can you imagine what it would feel like to open up, Know that millions of people are listening to you talking about one of the most intimate things in your life? People get nervous, and I don't think Amy's giving me some false bravado I don't think she's fighting me to make a point. I think that she's honestly nervous about talking about that and I respect her.

I think it's very courageous for her.

To come on the show and open up.

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Be a task with guilt.

They can be a tool to build wealth. Do you have an example of someone in your life who does have a healthy relationship with money?

No, not that I can think of off the top of my head now.

Have you ever realized that before?

No.

What do you think? What do you think it means?

Oh, I don't know. I don't know what it means. I don't know if, you know, just the people in my life find money to be like a taboo thing because even the people I know who have money or have savings or have investments, I don't think that their relationship to their money is healthy. They're afraid to spend or they don't want to talk about it, that sort of thing.

Andre, I'm curious about you. You make $10,000 a month?

Yes, sir.

That's a very good salary. And when you describe your relationship with money, what would you say?

My history with money. Like my relationship with money, I'm pretty loose with it. Coming into this relationship, I definitely wasn't the saver. I didn't have a ton of savings. I had some cash in the bank. Not a ton invested in any retirement anything. Had a retirement captured out when I was very young. Really didn't think about it in the industry I was in. Really have like a retirement savings plan necessarily. I would have to set it up myself and yeah, it's just I've always kind of lived like a little bit freer with money. More in the moment with money. Since being in a relationship, you know, we've definitely tightened down and it's been my. My relationship has changed since, you know, we've combined forces and all that changed. To what changed to being more stressed about money. Money. Money's now a source. It's a source of stress. So.

And. And is that because Amy's stress rubbed off on you or did you bring your own stress to it as well?

Well, I would be silly if I pointed the finger at my wife and said it was her fault. But it's definitely, you know, it's definitely part of it. It's. It's. It's stressful. It's. It's. It's a. It's a daily subject. It's something that comes up. I feel like our debt can be taken down with the amount that we make each year. We shouldn't be, I don't know, just putting so much towards an empty bucket and paying these credit cards and this debt that we have. It just seems like we're throwing our money away. And I haven't made this money forever. This is within the last five years. And before that, I was making decent money, but it's not, like, incredible money. But it's just. It seems like I've worked really hard to get to this point and every, like, milestone of, like, new job, raise, raise, promotion, raise. It's. Nothing's changed. It's still the stress. It's still the insurmountable. It's still the same things are happening, even though we're making more. And it feels like it shouldn't be that way. It feels like we should have turned a corner.

Can I just point something out?

Yeah.

It doesn't sound really fun the way you talk about your money.

No, it's not fun.

Do you think that money can be fun?

Yes. Yeah, I think it could be fun.

Who has fun with it?

People who have money.

That is true. That is true. But I've had a lot of people on this show who are in $300,000 of debt, and they still sound like they have more fun than you do.

Yeah, I mean, they probably do. I feel very guilty all the time.

Yeah.

The theme is stressed out and overwhelmed. I hear that daily. That is. Amy's theme is, babe, I am stressed out and overwhelmed about money.

But, Amy, if we solved all of your financial problems today and you're debt free tomorrow, how would you feel?

To be honest, I have no idea how I would feel. I have no idea. I've never been debt free. I have no idea how I feel. I think I would feel a little bit lighter if I'm being honest. I would, but then I would probably be stressed out that I didn't know what to do next.

That's an honest answer.

That is an honest answer. The way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated with how much you have in the bank.

So right now, when do you talk about money?

I mean, in conversation. Just about daily.

What the hell? What? Like what? Well, that's a lot. I do this for a living. I Don't even talk about it every day.

I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a constant conversation.

All right, that's clue number one. Let me guess. It's usually something negative. It's like, we got to do this or how are we going to do that? Or what's the tenor of the conversation?

It's definitely. We talk more about what we're worried about because we don't see each other a lot during the day. So it's kind of like the bullet points at the end of the night. I will say we have both been very excited about our car. The new car has been a fun, exciting money thing for us.

I do get an intense. Almost like a press conference about money, though. It's a lot of. It's like a. Almost like a. Like a storm is coming. Like, better go get some water and batteries. It's going to be bad till Friday.

Wow, really?

Until Friday? Because what happens on Friday?

Friday's payday.

I get paid every other Friday. She gets paid every other Friday. And it happens that we get paid every Friday.

So can I tell you something very candid? At $140,000 a year, you. You should not be thinking about payday.

I don't want to throw Andre under the bus, but, I mean, if I try to talk about money or, like, get, like, a partner and things, it's. He kind of glazes over and disassociates. So it's. I felt fairly alone in a lot of the decisions and a lot of the. And, you know, so that's. And, yeah. And then I feel a little bit of guilt again because I'm the one in charge. So, like, it's my fault we're here.

It's got to be frustrating.

Yeah, it's. It's. It's just. I'm sorry, but it's just. It's tough because she does have, you know, reign over the finances as far as, like, paying the bills and everything. And it's tough because the, you know, when we talk about finances, it's all doom and gloom. It's never, you know, positivity. It's never. So of course I'm going to glaze over.

This was a really interesting comment from Andre. He points out that she manages the daily money, and because she feels so stressed out, of course he wants to avoid that. So what happens is they fall into the pursuer pursue dynamic where she wants to talk about what's going on with their money, why she feels stressed, what they need to change in order to get control of it. And of course, he wants to avoid it. This is common among couples, and not just with money. This is where talking to someone, especially a therapist, over a long period of time can really help.

Why would I. I don't. You know, it's. It's not. I dread talking about money because it's always negative. And the. The same perception is stressed out and overwhelmed about everything. And I don't. Sometimes I just don't want to feel that way, so I don't want to hear it. So I just kind of zone out sometimes. I really try to be involved. I really try to, but it's. I don't live at that frequency of stress. I don't live at that. Like, you know, I don't function well at that. So it's tough for me to participate when that's the theme.

We've had this conversation before, so I've. You know, all of our bills are in this app that we can both access and when they're due and how much they are, so that the doom and gloom talk can be kind of taken out of the equation, but he can still be involved. But, like, that doesn't even really get paid attention to.

I do see the app that she's talking about. I see the bills getting paid. I know that the diligence is there and she pays the bills. It just. Even if I, you know, and. And I could say that I want to participate more, I'm being lazy about it. Like, if I'm calling myself out, I'm definitely lazy about it because she does do such a diligent job at paying those bills and ring the bell and doing the things. When it's talked about, it's like, it's always, the debt is the mountain, and we're at the bottom and it's always looking up. There's never. It's almost like the Sisyphus of pushing the rock up the hill, and then it just tumbles down the other side and we're still pushing. I believe in finish lines and bright spots. And it's like, financially, we talk about finish lines and bright spots, but it seems like the daily conversation is stress and the things we can't do and the things we have to wait till Friday for payday for or this and that. Or do we have to pay this or this credit card?

Okay, that's gotta be frustrating. The mountain example is a really good one. Just you're always at the bottom looking up, and does it ever feel like you made it partway up the mountain sometimes.

Yeah. Like, I mean, I. My credit card, my personal credit card doesn't have the debt on it, but I know our overall debt, which we share is. It's pretty big. So it's like, you know, without a big windfall, without, like, a big move, without a big plan, it just seems. With the way that we attack it and approach it and talk about it daily, like, it feels, you know, I don't want to say hopeless, but it feels, like, very bleak. It always is. Like, it's never like, oh, man, we're going to get to here. We're saved for this. It's always like, what we can't do and what we don't have, so. And it's just frustrating at. At the. Like you said, the salary and everything. We shouldn't be stressing over over much, but she needs help, and I don't feel like I'm any help at all because this is, like, not my world. And she is right. I do glaze over. And when she looks for support, it's like, sometimes when I don't have an.

Answer, I don't like seeing people playing a game where they have no chance of winning. It's one thing if we go into a casino and we all know we're going to lose, but at least people go there, they get a drink and they have some fun. Okay, whatever. But you have set yourself up to lose, and yet every day you wake up and you think, okay, I got to figure out some way to win. But you are structurally set up to lose. So there is something you can do. Of course you have options. But right now, you both could buckle down and try harder and stop buying all this canned food or whatever. It's not going to change anything. Yeah, it can be frustrating to hear, but I kind of see it as a relief. It's like, okay, our strategy's not working, so what else can we do? Because this thing doesn't work. How do you feel hearing this?

We've buckled down to about as far as we can buckle down. We don't even have cable anymore. And it's not the most fun thing in the world.

Yeah, I constantly feel buckled down. Like, I. Yeah. And she is the one that runs the finances, so there's nothing more. I mean, I don't want to have to ask for things, but I also don't want to be like, hey, I want this like a, you know, like a kid at the same time, because I know money stresses her out, and I don't want her to do those Things, but, you know, I don't want her to be stressed out. But, you know, and then if, you know, if we do have money, it's, it's. I feel, you know, hesitant in spending it sometimes. And I feel like sometimes Amy can feel a little freer spending the money sometimes because she doesn't have to have that kind of stress associated with it too, because she's kind of in the. In control of it, you know?

Well, feeling in control and being in control are two different things. You can feel in control because you pay the bills on time. That's a lot of sort of suburban parents in America. I ask them, what does managing money mean to you? Well, let me ask you, Amy, what does managing money mean to you?

Yeah, I mean, paying the bills on time, making sure that, you know, you have, you have the basic need, things you have, and then the rest is kind of a luxury.

Yeah, I don't think that's what managing money means. I think that's what a lot of people think. But your view on managing money is what leads to being underwater. Because guess what, you can make sure the bills are paid on time, but you're still losing the overall war. Managing money, in my opinion, is about creating a vision for a rich life and then using your money to get there. I'm not sure that you both have a vision for your rich life, which I'd like to talk about. But I certainly know that you're not using your money to get there because right now you're underwater and at 140k, you shouldn't be that way. So paying bills on time is sort of the bare minimum. It's not even really the point. I wouldn't even mind if you miss a couple payments. I don't want you to. Don't do that. Your credit score will not be good. But, like, that's not winning. What's really winning is having a vision and then making some decisions with your money to get there. You're not doing her any favors by being negligent and being absent with money. It doesn't matter that you're not a financial expert. Do you know, most people in this country, they don't know anything about money. In fact, they believe they need to invest in whole life insurance and all this scam bullshit. They don't know anything.

Yeah.

So the fact is, the two of you just being on this call right now already are way ahead of most people. You actually know your fixed costs.

Now that we have some background on their money dynamic, let's take a look at the numbers. Let's see how their feelings match up with the actual spending. And when I take one look at their conscious spending plan, it is immediately obvious what is going on. One huge line item jumps out at me. You can follow along, even plug in your own numbers on the conscious spending plan, which you can get for free@iwt.com Episode 62.

Your fixed costs are high. Why are they so high?

I don't. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I do know. I'm sure it's the house and probably the car. Those are big, like the big pieces of the puzzle.

So right now you spend 92% of your take home on fixed costs. And you know, my recommendation is 50 to 60%.

Yes.

And you know, where most people overspend, there's two things within fixed costs that they overspend on. What are they, Amy?

House and car.

Exactly. So right there, if we zoom in, that is exactly why you feel overwhelmed. It has nothing to do with the groceries. Well, a little bit to do with the groceries, but it's, it's this. It is this category, which to me is an immense relief because now I go, okay, out of a million different things, buying paper towels, buying a car, buying this, buying that, vacation wedding. We can zoom in on this and we can try to see if we can make it work. This is the reason virtually every person who feels overwhelmed with money is overspending in the fixed cost area. So what's this? $30,000 of credit card debt from.

This one's hard. I have a lot of responsibility for my family. And I also had a dog with a lot of health problems.

I'm sorry to hear that.

So it is not new. And it is not. I mean, I am not going to say all of it is like 100% serious. I am sure there were some nights I went out and was just like, I need to blow off some steam. But a lot of it that I brought to the table was like, it's. I mean, it felt to me like a necessity. And then when, then when Andre and I got married, we did put some of our wedding on the cards.

What was the thinking there when you did that?

We wanted a nice wedding. And I mean, I'm not. I mean, it wasn't like an extravagant wedding by any means at all, but it was a wedding where we could have the people we love in one room and give them a pretty decent meal and enjoy their company.

Are you concerned that I'm about to tell you you were all wrong about Your wedding and stuff like that. Is that what you think that I'm going to do on this call?

I mean, I think I feel that way about anyone talking to me about this. So it's not just like directly you, but. Yes.

Yeah, I mean, I don't really do that and I don't find it's useful. Like, this is your money, it's not mine. And what I'm here to do is to help you understand some options you have. And I'm here to help you elevate from the day to day decisions that so consume us. To help you get a bird's eye view. It's like if you're driving on the street, you could pretty much only see like a hundred feet ahead of you versus if you're up in a drone or airplane or something. You can see the whole area. That's what I can help you do. And then you can decide which direction you want to go.

People who overspend are stressed, overwhelmed, and anxious every day of their lives. But the one thing they are absolutely petrified of is someone telling them they have to change. Most people will do anything to avoid that. It's kind of like saying the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Sure, they may be overwhelmed and anxious, but at least they know what that feels like. Change is scary. I found that most people are comfortable continuing to fail at something rather than entertaining the possibility of making a change which might fail, but also might change their lives. It is a fascinating wrinkle in human psychology. As for the wedding, you want a nice wedding? Go for it.

My wife and I did.

The only difference is I'd been saving for a wedding since I was 24 years old. So with Amy and Andre, I want to get them to look at money different. And it's hard because when you finally get honest with money, one of the first things you feel is shame. Why didn't I learn this earlier? Why have I been making the kind of decisions I've been making for 20, 30, 40 years? But ultimately that's just a small road bump on the way to turning the page on your rich life and going into the next chapter.

When I talk to new business owners, I hear a lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto today@gusto.com ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/ramit once more gusto.com/ramit there's this myth that if you rent, it means you haven't made it. I don't really believe that I rent. And I want you to know that you are not a failure if you choose to rent.

In fact, I want more freedom right.

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Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com Ramit that's J-O-I N B I L T.com Ramit and make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you. All right. You have a payment of $920 a month for debt that your credit card debt.

Yeah, that's all the minimums.

That's the minimum. Whoa. And what's the interest rate on that credit card?

Oh, there's quite a few of them.

Average 2020. Okay.

Yeah.

So are you aware of how long it'll take you to Pay that off.

I did do a, like a debt payment calculator with like a. You know, it has like a schedule of what payments you're supposed to make every month on what cards, but it was about five years.

Okay, and what do you think about that?

I think that's too long.

Too long, but okay.

Yeah, but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.

Well, you choose how long it takes. Yeah, the credit card just. They just do the math. And of course, they want to extend it out as long as possible. You know why?

Interest.

Yeah. 20 interest. They make a ton of money off you. They're going to make roughly a third of what you owe in interest.

Yep.

You owe 30k. They'll make roughly 12 to $14,000 in interest. Yeah, Andre. Andre is not happy about that.

This is crazy. Paying the minimum payments and feeling stressed out go hand in hand. You are stressed out because you are making the minimum payments, not the other way around. And so you could keep making the minimum payments, you'll keep feeling stressed out, but ultimately it's not working. That's why they're here talking to me. So what I want to get them to do is to start seeing they need to make a change. And as we get deeper into these numbers together, I notice another theme, which is that Amy and Andre use debt in all the wrong ways. Knowing what you now know about their debt, I think this next part will really surprise you.

Okay, let's look at some of the other numbers here. Your income, Amy. 2,600 bucks. Tell me about that. I know you run your own business.

I do.

What do you expect that number to be at?

Well, honestly, right now we are very, very new. We opened a year and a half ago. We opened in the middle of COVID And the fact I have a business partner. 50 50. The fact that we are even able to take home paychecks consistently is a big win in my book. But we are actually building out a new location. So it's going to be a minute. It's kind of like we're starting over again.

So you're taking on debt to do that location?

We are.

How much debt?

We are taking out a large loan. It's about 375.

Where is it coming out of? What are you securing it against?

My. Our home and my partner's home.

This part terrifies me. Amy is buried in debt and she has taken on even more debt for an unproven business. This is one of those things where it's difficult to even know where to Begin. My job is not to fix everything on this call. My job is to help them start to see money in a different way and start to make a few key changes that will allow them to make the next few key changes. I will point something out. One of the reasons that they feel so stressed out by money, it's not simply their debt. It is, well, their debt definitely contributes to it. But it's not just that. It is also that they have given themselves no money for guilt free spending. None. That means they're simply not realistic. And so when they get stressed out.

What do they do?

They go spend money. It would be better for them to be reasonable, to be honest and say, you know what? We are going to eat out twice a week. Let's put it in our conscious spending plan under guilt free spending. At least then we can acknowledge it. What we see here is a lot of guilt, a lot of denying reality. We're not going to spend anything. And also, perhaps most damningly, using debt in a way that is not good. Frankly, most people should not be using debt as a sophisticated instrument.

Most people should be focused on the.

Basics of personal finance. And Amy and Andre have gotten in way over their heads.

One of the reasons you both feel stressed out about money is that you actually haven't allocated enough money for guilt free spending. So guilt free spending should not be negative. It should not be. It actually needs to be. Well, I encourage 20 to 35%. But if you were like, hey, we're in debt. We want to be lower than we want to be 15%. Okay, fine. Right now it's negative 2%. No wonder you order all this food for convenience. No wonder that you have these unexpected things come up because you haven't actually planned for it. So I would rather you both just get honest. You go, you know what, we're going to eat out once a week. We like it. So let's put that down here. Okay? Now that means we got to cut something else and it's going to become a joint project. You know what, we got to do better about our groceries. What dime? Who's going to own that? Da, da, da da. But that's going to allow you to make progress on your fixed costs because you already know all your options, but also live a life. I'm not asking you to live like monks for the next 10 years. I don't want that. Go out if you want to do that, but get the fixed costs all adjusted. Your fixed costs are too high, which leaves you no other room to handle emergencies to go out to dinner or any fun stuff and forget about investing. It doesn't leave you any money because it's all going towards these fixed costs. Essentially, all your money is gone the minute it comes in.

If I'm being honest with you, like, I don't see any way to change any of the fixed costs that we have. Yeah, if I'm being honest, I really don't. I don't know. I don't know. I don't.

What do you mean, you don't know? Do you have the conscious spending plan open in front of you right now?

Yes, I do, but I don't know. Like, I don't. I've. I've talked about getting a job for myself, but I'm also working a lot of hours a week on my business, and it's a very physical job. And, Andre, the overtime isn't guaranteed. I don't know what we would cut besides selling the house, if that's even a good option at this point.

And it's tough because just working more for her doesn't mean more money because she's an owner. It's like it doesn't make sense for her to get another job and put her time into that. But putting her time into the business doesn't always reap financial benefits right away because she just has to put time in being an owner.

So I understand all the problems. I'm looking for solutions. You guys are both very good at telling me all the reasons you can't change.

Mm.

Well, we got this car, but we can't get rid of it. Well, we have this house, but we can't get rid of. We have these tools, but we can't get rid of it. We have this. We can't do that. I understand all the reasons you've laid out are quite rational. However, as one of my mentors told me, they are not leading you to the outcomes that you want.

This is one reason why you should be careful about increasing your lifestyle if you truly cannot afford it, because it is incredibly hard to downsize. And in America, the ultimate shame is having to downsize because you can't afford something anymore. Listen to Amy and Andre. They genuinely have no idea what they can do. That's because. Well, there are a lot of reasons, but one major reason is that people simply cannot fathom downsizing. They have reasons for everything. In many ways, that car has become part of Amy's identity. She even said it's the one moment that gives her joy in her day. Well, change is hard, but they need to start visualizing these changes, and they need to start making. Making them now. If they don't make them on their own, the changes will get made to them.

Okay, so right now, if I'm looking at your fixed costs and I'm just ballparking it, you would need to essentially cut roughly $2,000 off your fixed costs every month. That's a ballpark. We can play with it. There's a lot of things we can do. But I share that number. Not to scare you, but to get you thinking how big of changes we need to be making. So, sure, by all means, cancel some subscription that you're not using anymore. Okay. You should probably cut the grocery spend. Sure. But that's not going to solve the problem, is it? So if we start off by saying our goal is to cut our fixed costs by 2000 bucks, or we could also make more money, then you tell me, what are the options?

I have a truck, and I have a car. Her old car I use as a commuter now, so I technically have two vehicles. Her old commuter is an absolute beater, so we couldn't really get anything for that. But my truck is. It's got a lot of miles, but it's a Toyota truck, and it's a certain Toyota truck, so I could sell it for a certain amount of money. But, I mean, that's. I'm one of those weirdos that, you know, dream is a hot rod. You know, I've kept my truck forever.

How much can you get for that truck?

Is. Without me, like, fixing it up, working on it, and doing a couple of things it needs. I could probably sell it for maybe. Maybe nine or ten.

Okay, 10,000 bucks. Fine. All right, back to you, Amy. Options.

I mean, we could stop putting so much in Andre's retirement every month.

Okay. That would be. You're currently putting 600 bucks a month. Okay. You could. You're right. You could stop that. That's a good option. I mean, that's not a good option, but that is an option. I'll take any options at this point.

That's what Dave Ramsey says to do.

Okay, Andrew, go ahead.

Well, I mean, the next obvious one is the Telluride. I mean, we could. I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a new car. It's her. She. She loves it. But, I mean, it is. It is something that is, you know, a fixed cost that could be saleable, but it's. It's not going to happen.

Okay.

She would sell the house. She would sell the house before she sold the car. She loves that thing.

Okay, so that's not really an option, I guess. Yeah. What else?

No.

I mean, I. I have to, like, I guess my tools.

How much?

How much do we say it was worth, babe? It was like, what, 15 grand?

Yeah, something like that.

What the hell is going on? You guys are sitting on, like, $30,000 worth of saleable stuff. What else you got in that garage?

A garage full of stuff to sell is a step in the right direction. Let's do that, and let's aim a little bigger. You have to realize the dynamics here. To Amy and Andre, the tools are part of their life. The Telluride is part of their life. Me coming in and saying, hey, maybe you should sell these things feels deeply personal. It's not quite like me telling them to sell a dog, which, by the way, I am not saying, so pet.

Owners, please do not come after me.

But in this culture, we associate things with success, and eventually those things become part of our identity. But here's my perspective. Ten years from now, looking back on this moment, Amy and Andre won't even remember the tools or that car. Ten years from now, they can be debt free. They can have a substantial portfolio. They can feel free and light and have a beautiful, rich life. But to get there, they have to make changes, and they have to do it now.

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I choose to work with.

I think selling the house is probably the best option.

Mm.

What do you think about that, Andre?

And this is, this is the first house I've bought. It's not Amy's first house. This is the first house I've had. So it's like, it's a tough thought to sell but at the same time it's not our forever home. It's not where I picture us like settling down and having the family life and all that stuff. It's a great home. I love it. I love the area, but I'm not like attached at the hip to it. I could, I could sell the house.

If you sold the house, sounds like you'd probably break even. Is that about right?

We would make. Yeah, with, with paying off. If we paid everything off. Yeah, we would make a Little bit, but not a lot.

Okay. And you factored in things like close transaction costs, 6, 8, 9, 10%, all that stuff. Okay. I'm not telling you you should or should not. But here's what matters most. If you sold the house, then what you currently pay for housing, which is roughly 3200 bucks a month, probably a little more when you factor in maintenance and stuff like that. Let's just say 3400. Would that be reasonable? Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Okay. What that would tell me is that I would want to be looking for a place to rent that would be substantially less, and I would take all the difference and I would put it towards these other parts of my life. Paying off the debt faster, building up the emergency fund, investing, et cetera. That's how I think about it. Because just selling it doesn't do anything. You break even, you might even lose money, whatever. It's some moderate amount. But what matters is the decision you make after as to where to live. So, you know, have you two given any consideration to what. What would it look like to rent a place that was, say, 1800, 1900, $2,000? What kind of lifestyle is that?

I don't. I find. I'm not trying to make excuses. I don't even think that exists where we live.

Yeah, you might have to move farther away.

We could.

We.

I know, I know.

We can live like two hours away.

I'm not telling you to do it. What I am saying is you have to give consideration to the real financial decision. It's not about selling the house. It's about lowering your monthly fixed costs.

Right.

How much would you pay in rent?

Oh, we would pay the same, if not more in rent than we pay now.

Wait a minute. How much would you pay for whatever place you would rent?

It would be about $2,500 a month.

Well, right now you're paying $3,200 a month for all your stuff.

Yeah. So, I mean, honestly, it just depends on where we could find a place. Because if it's, you know, like a house for rent, then we'll be in charge of garbage, utilities, all that sort of thing. If it's an apartment that will take our dog, then maybe something will be included. So, I mean, we've looked at. We've looked. We've looked at apartments. We've. We have done our. Our research.

I'm not sure if I buy it. They say they've researched and that rent.

Would cost them more than their current.

House, yet they just told me a rental would be about 2500. And their current housing is 3200.

Let's keep digging.

And the one thing that kind of curved it for me too was the talking to the parents. You know, my parents are older and when I ran it by, I'm like, because we have, like I said this plan to possibly one day. And they're excited about it too. They want to get a house with us and all the things. And I told them, hey, what if we paid off this debt using the money? And then. And they're like, nope, just stay the course, stay this and that and just keep kind of chopping the tree. And it was just like, you know, you got to take your parents advice seriously. But also I was just kind of like, bah. So I kind of got soured of the whole situation because it's like we wanted to sell, we didn't hear the number we wanted to hear. And then on top of it, my parents kind of poo pooed it.

And are your parents aware you're spending 92% of your take home on your fixed costs? Do they even know what that means?

Yeah, they would.

Amy's shaking her head no.

You don't think so?

No, I don't think your parents have the best track record of money.

You know what I love one thing I love, I just have to tell you, I love this. The spouse always knows the family dynamics of the other spouse's family. It is so funny. Okay, I want to summarize what just.

Happened because it is so important. Amy and Andre can sell their house, but it's not really the sale that matters. What matters is, is that they would take the money that they are currently paying for all of their housing costs and they would instead rent a cheaper place and redirect the savings towards their debt and towards investments. If they don't do that, they will be like so many other people. This is a mistake that many people make. They make a one time change, like selling a house or a car, but they forget that what really matters is taking the monthly savings and redirecting it where it needs to go. If you don't intentionally redirect it, it will simply vanish into your monthly spending and you will have no idea where it went. That's how people start giving up on personal finance. They go, I sold this car and.

I thought I'd have a lot more.

Money, but I don't have anything, so forget this thing. It doesn't work. I got a raise, I'm making $5,000 more a year, but where's the money well, you didn't take the time to use a conscious spending plan and redirect it. That's the only thing that matters.

Now. If you're curious about how to do.

This, you can see chapters four and five from my book, I will teach.

You to be rich.

The one big looming thing is, like the newer car. But it's like, you know, the amount of research that we put into it, the. Not the knowledge that I have, being an ex mechanic working at a car dealership, selling cars, knowing all those things, the car itself that we purchased, the reason we purchased it, the reason we waited for it, it was like a. It was like a full year decision. We had to wait for this thing and pay when we got it and everything. We had to order it. It was. It was not a light decision. And we vetted even looking at similar cars that were used and smaller, and none of them just. They all seemed like. Just compromise. And this seemed like something that we had the opportunity to not compromise in. So I feel like I don't know why the new car would be such a. Such a coveted thing, but it feels like something that we both really actually enjoy more than the house and more than, oh, God, I love my truck.

In my philosophy, you spend extravagantly on the things you love and you cut costs mercilessly on the things you don't. But you have to be able to afford it, right? You can't afford it.

Yeah. We bought it out of love. We bought it because, more than anything, she loves it. Like, just to be brutally honest, she loves it more than anything. The color, everything, the car itself, everything about it, she loves it.

I don't mind people loving stuff. I have a lot of things that I love. Intangible items. We all have our money dials and the things that we love. Cool. But the thing is, we spent most of this call talking about how both of you are stressed about money, especially you, Amy. And so if we were to get really candid and say, okay, you love the car, I hear you on that. Looks cool from what I saw. But right now you feel stressed every single day of your life about money. And right now it's not getting better, it's actually getting worse. Is it worth it? What would your answer be?

Oh, God. As, like, ridiculous as it sounds. Yes. Like, the car is, like the one piece of joy for my. In my day.

So I really.

I really would agree with her too. It's so. It's so silly.

I know that sounds so silly because we. We did purchase the car or plan to Purchase the car after Andre received a raise at work. And it, at the time, made sense.

I can tell that you like it. I'm more interested in what you just said about how you made the decision to buy this car. How did you decide how much you.

Could afford based on the monthly payment?

What do you think about that?

I mean, now that I'm. Now that I have found you, I understand that that is incorrect.

And now I want you to connect that to the rest of your fixed costs. What do you see when you make that connection?

Well, that's what it is. Everything's just, what's the monthly payment rather than the bigger picture.

And that's why you're drowning.

Yeah.

Individually, everything makes sense. Of course we need this car. Of course we need these cans. Of course we need this xyz, of course. But it's all focused on the monthly payment. And then one day you wake up and that day is today. Well, it's not today. You've been stressed out about this for a while because deep down you know something's not right. But individually, you'd never be able to see that. Now, as I said at the beginning of this call, we're elevating and looking at the bird's eye view, and you can see that you've locked yourself into too many expenses. And the problem with making these purchases is that once you do, it is really hard to go backwards. That is your resistance to even thinking about selling the car or to even thinking about selling the house or cutting back on anything. Once you've established a certain standard of living, it is very difficult in this culture to go backwards. If you don't already notice, you have a very split way of handling money.

Her hyper diligence and my aloofness has not worked for sure.

Andre, you make the bulk of the money, but you don't pay any attention to it whatsoever. Amy, you manage the money.

But.

But you were taught since you were young that you don't talk about money. You have no role models with a healthy relationship with money, and right now you're drowning. So it's. The system you've set up is not working. And I know, you know, often couples feel like, well, one person handles the dishwasher and I handle the laundry. But money's not like that. It cuts across everything. And that is why there's feelings of overwhelm and even resentment. One partner might take the lead on certain things, but it's got to be a partnership. Andre, I think you can see the implications of you not participating in the financial discussions, I can understand why. I don't want doom and gloom anymore when you talk about money. I'm going to give you some tools so that you can have a more positive conversation. But by leaving Amy to feel alone with money, then naturally she shrinks to focus on just checking the box to make sure the bare minimum is done. And I'm sure she's doing a very good job of making sure the bills are paid on time. But that's. You both need to work together to accomplish something bigger than that. Amy, does that sound about right?

Yeah, yeah.

And would you be open to his support even though he may not be a financial expert?

Oh yeah. I mean that's kind of, I would love like fresh eyes, you know, on things or some even devil's advocate if we're trying to figure things out. Like, I mean, I crave it. That's why I talk to him about it.

Listen to that, Andre. That's why she talks to you. I know that the way she talks to you, you might be receiving it as like, oh no, it's doom and gloom. And she's like, you know, kind of like what's the worst case? And that might be the case, but really deep down I think Amy wants a partner. And the two of you, even though neither of you are financial experts, that's okay. You actually don't have to be. To get the basics right, you just need to make a few key decisions and get those right. The rest of the stuff, it works itself out. So I want to know, Andre, from you, I want to know what do you want to use your money for?

I'm a simple pleasures guy. I kind of, you know, of the two of us, I kind of live in the moment. I'm like, if I had to put a reference to it, I'm Chewbacca, she's Han Solo, she makes the plan, I'm kind of the action. She's the one that comes up with the formulation and the planning and the long term thinking. And I'm the one that's kind of like in the moment living. I like to.

Let me pause you, what's on your bucket list for the next 10 years?

10 years for sure. I've wanted to get another like a hot rod, fast car, classic car, not much more than that. We've talked about getting possibly like a family compound with my parents investing in something where we both have like two homes on a property or a split level on a lake. Something where because they're getting older and it'd be nice to have them in our lives, and Amy gets along with them really well. So it'd be a good thing. You know, possibly kids, we are a little bit older, but possibly children in the future, having the wherewithal to take care of those kids, to be able to take care of the dog without thinking about it, to be able to have a future, you know.

Okay, cool. Thank you. In your rich life with Amy, what's the vision? What do you see the two of you doing?

I see a lot of travel. Like, as we get. As we get older and try to get into a position where we can make memories together because we have the things together. We have the house, we have the car, we have the stuff. I have the job, she has the business, we have the life. But I want to be able to live with her. I want to be able to enjoy that life and go travel and do the things that I picture somebody that makes the amount of money that we make doing nice.

I don't mind that you first answered with the stuff that's in your rich life. I actually think that everyone has an individual rich life. And in a relationship, you have a joint rich life. But I've got stuff that I want to do my wife has no interest in. That's okay. Same for her. But then we have the things that we both want to do. Cool. What my dream is for both of you is that you can have a crystal clear vision of what your rich life is. So when you say a hot rod, I bet you, you know the year of that car and you know the color you want to paint it and the renovation. Look at that smile. Am I right?

I got top five. Like, I got. There's. There's things, there's options there.

Love it. That's. That's a rich life. A rich life is vivid and it's meaningful. So you want a hot rod, and I love that. I don't know anything about a hot rod. It's not a thing for me, but that doesn't matter. Your rich life is yours. So I. My dream for you is that you both have these vivid, specific things you want to do. We want to travel. Specifically, we want to travel for two and a half weeks on this tour or to this place, and we want to take our dog with us. That level of specificity is what actually makes money exciting, and it gives you a reason to change the way you treat money. If it's just words like we want to travel or. Or even worse, we want to stop feeling overwhelmed with money.

Yeah.

Think about what happens tomorrow. Morning after this conversation, you wake up and are you going to leap out of bed and go, yeah, I want to stop feeling overwhelmed about money. No, it's not motivational, it's not vivid, but oh, my gosh, we have decided we want to take that trip or we want to get that car or whatever. That is a reason to stick with a system.

Sometimes I talk about investment strategies or compound interest and we do some cool calculations. But in this conversation, Amy and Andre just need a little positive momentum. They need a lifeline to dig themselves out of this financial and emotional hole that they find themselves in. So I want to start talking about a healthy relationship with money.

Either you decide to make a change, which you can, but it's up to you, or you go on like this and you essentially hope that something changes. It's a lot of hope. It's hope that Amy's business starts paying you more, but it has to be a lot more because you're going to have to pay off the debt that you now incurred, like 200 grand of debt. It's hoping that maybe, Andre, you get promoted or you can keep working overtime, things like that. It's hope that you can eventually pay this credit card off and then somehow magically use that money for something else. It's a lot of hope. You guys want to hope or you want to make a plan?

No, we definitely. I mean, I want to make a plan.

What would be a good time to talk about money for the two of you?

I think Friday nights would be good.

Love it. And are you both rested and alert on a Friday night?

No, but I don't think there is a day of the week that you get us both rested and alert, if I'm being honest.

Yeah, that's sort of a deeper issue. You know, you'll have to think about that in terms of lifestyle. But let's take what we've got Friday night. Okay. So what would you like to talk about on this conversation? Let's start with the first 60 seconds of, of this conversation. What do you want it to be?

I think for me, I'm not like talking about the basic every day to day stuff. I'm not worried about paying the basic every day to day bills. It's the things that come up.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. What do you want the first 60 seconds of the conversation to be? You get a chance to design this conversation.

Oh, I don't, I don't know. What, what, what's on the, on the task?

What are the options for the Friday. Okay, but did you.

Did you notice?

Don't you think it's interesting? Amy, I'm trying to show you how to have a different relationship with money.

Okay.

Do you notice what you naturally jumped into, what your instinct took you to?

No.

Your answer was, we talk about things that have come up, which is really code for things that are going wrong with our money. Okay, so can you see why Andre's like, I don't want to talk about this.

Yeah.

Okay, so let's flip it.

You get a chance to set the tone in these conversations. How do you want to begin the first 60 seconds?

I don't. I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. I don't know.

Let's look to Andre for a cue. Is there a way to have a conversation about money that starts with positivity?

Yeah, I guess. I just. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

It never occurred to you, huh?

No. And I don't know what even that looks like, because. I don't know. I don't know. Because. Yeah. I don't know.

I might start off by saying, I want to start off by sharing something I really appreciate about you. You always make sure that we have.

Garbage bags for the garbage.

Amazing. Or I really appreciate that you helped me think through the conscious spending plan before we talked to Ramit. I was nervous about it, but it really helped to have you partner with me. And then Andre might say to you, well, I really appreciate that you set up that app for us, and I know I haven't done a great job of logging in, but it means a lot that you did it, and I would love it if you could walk me through it another time. A little moment of appreciation for each other. How do you think that would change the tenor of the conversation?

I would enjoy it. I'm into positive affirmation when it comes to things.

Love it. Okay, so what we're doing right now is we are totally reconceptualizing the concept of talking about money. Talking about money is not only meant to talk about what's bad and the problems. Talking about money is not even only meant to talk about status updates. Talking about money is meant for what?

Or positivity.

What else?

It's for, you know, planning for our future and thinking of the things we want to do with our money rather than what we can do with our money.

There you go. It's about connection. It's about coming together, and that connection can be appreciating each other. That connection can be creating a vision together that Connection could be asking for help. Hey, I don't know how to calculate this thing. Or we open up an investment account. I don't understand. Or even I really need your help because we both agreed that we were going to cut our groceries, but I'm looking at something last week and seemed to be a little bit over. Can you help me understand it? Because I need your help. All of that is connection, but it's a totally different way of talking about money than you've been doing so far, isn't it? Way more caring, way more connected, the two of you working together. Because you've both clarified a vision and now it's just like, we're in this together. Let's figure out how to make it work. It's okay if you got problems. It's okay if you got extra debt or something. Somebody overspent or late fee. Okay. Hey, I gotta admit, I messed up on this one. I am sorry. I gotta take responsibility. I'm gonna work a little extra, but it won't happen again. On the other hand, I want to recognize you. You did an amazing job. Oh, my God, I feel so good knowing that you're my partner in this. And I know even if we've got some debt, we're gonna be able to get through this together. Wow. It feels good just to say it. It's got to feel even better to receive it. You both clearly love each other. I've learned that, Amy, you didn't really have financial role models and it's challenging for you sometimes when I ask you, like, give me a hypothetical and you know what? I don't mind it, eventually, guess what? You get to be your own healthy financial role model. So I feel very confident in that. Andre, hearing the way that you were very candid about, I don't. You know, I. I have admittedly not really participated in the money. I think the two of you have a really strong relationship and if you can go into it and say we are going to come up with a vision together and then we are going to figure out what decisions to make. Oh, my God. All of a sudden it's not his tools and her car and it's our money.

This is normally where I would share a follow up letter from Amy and Andre, but I did not hear from them, despite reaching out multiple times to get an update. Usually when this happens, it means that the couple is not taking my advice. I truly wish Amy and Andre the best and I hope they make a change because one way or another, they will have to. The question is whether they want to make the change on their own or they want to let circumstances unfold so their backs are against the wall. I think it's a tragedy to take the negative money messages you grew up with and despite living in a completely different socioeconomic status to stay still carry those forward. But Amy and Andre if you are listening I wish you the best. I would love to hear your follow up. And for everyone else you can get the conscious spending plan that Amy and andre used@iwt.com Episode 62. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I WILL teach you to be Rich my book. Pick up a copy.

You can get it at any bookstore.

Or any library and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I will teach you to be rich system into your personal finances.